NES/FC/FDS/Dendy

[amber willow]

yeah "All Hell Unleashed v6.66.nes" Did you get the rom from the itch.io page? Maybe it's your sdram, have you tested it with sdram tester? Do you have any problems in other cores?

[clever wave]

I haven't tested in a while but other cores and games work

I have two other MiSTers, well 3 I can try

Superstation one as well

I'll try on those and if need be redownload the rom

[clever scarab]

Why do you have so many MiSTers!

[clever wave]

Well I have my original from 2020, then I bought a 2nd, then a 3rd when Taki started doi g the Pis, plus the superstation one. I do have the SS1 hooked up to a CRT, one hooked up to main rig and the other downstairs TV. Tbf the 3rd mister is basically surplus, I could use it in the bedroom or travelling, I don't know what to do with it

[clever scarab]

All the poor starving children now can’t have a MiSTer because you took them all!

[clever wave]

I do at least use the majority of them.

[clever scarab]

Ok you know what, hell yeah!

[digital rampart]

Get a Gameboy link SNAC cable

Then you can play 4-player Gameboy

[cursive sable]

Late to the party but, not that abnormal as there were quite a few NES games that were 512KB or larger (though commonly most games were smaller) but anything larger than 40KB would require a mapper, yes. (Or technically, anything with more than 32K of PRG ROM and 8K of CHR ROM)

[clever scarab]

Thanks for the answer dude! I learn so much from the amazing MiSTer community.

[cursive sable]

No problem 🙂 Morphcat games has a great video on what it was like trying to compress an NES game within that original 32K/8K of space when they were making their own mapperless game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWQ0591PAxM

[grand jewel]

The original dev cart at Berlin.

[cursive sable]

Nice!

[vestal blaze]

To be fair, I have three MiSTers as well. One’s connected to the main flatscreen TV in the living room, one’s connected to a CRT in the game room, and one’s in my office connected to a keyboard & mouse.

[clever scarab]

Bro, there’s a kid in Albania who can’t get a MiSTer now thanks to you!!!

[half pasture]

No bathroom MiSTer? 🤔

[dry lynx]

Americans with their separate gaming rooms and offices

No wonder you guys need so many MiSTers

[covert crypt]

PisSTer

[vestal blaze]

Odd question, but does anyone know if the microphone on the wireless reproduction Famicom controllers Nintendo put out for NSO will currently work on MiSTer?

[half pasture]

No it won’t

[clever wave]

Waiting for Taki on that one 🙏

[digital rampart]

Maybe this has been answered before but, Turbo file emulation?

[cursive sable]

Turbo file?

[latent breach]

yeah, not sure what “turbo file” is…

[grand jewel]

https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Turbo_File

[latent breach]

ahhh

do the games that support it require it for saving?

[cursive sable]

Woah, weird, I was JUST trying to look that up the other day but had forgotten it's name

Wasn't there some games that made use of this to transfer data from the NES ot the SNES version?

[fierce estuary]

umm, what games?

well, it's addable

but it seems pretty low value

im not super sure how you'd hook that up to snes

[solemn sedge]

"Original Famicom Turbo File devices can be connected to a Super Famicom using an adapter unit, allowing certain SFC games to use the device in lieu of the TFTwin. "

[cursive sable]

Yeah, I saw that. But I meant I think a recall reading there were some Famicom games that intentionally had the feature to continue your game on the SNES using that. Like an old save bonus thing

[fierce estuary]

I can add it sometime

it's pretty simple

[granite pivot]

Did they put 50 lives in the US version Castle Excellent (Castlequest) in an attempt to make up for the lack of availability of the Turbo File in the US?

JP version has the standard 3 lives

[lime lichen]

Any chance of adding save states or nvram save to the VS core?

[digital rampart]

Thank you. I'd say it's worth it just because a lot of people might wanna play Wizardry with the continue bonuses

[clever scarab]

Let’s be real, no one is going to do that. But it’s a cool feature and thank you for bringing it up.

[fierce estuary]

it seems to only work for the japanese wizardry

[covert crypt]

Niche²

[main narwhal]

while I like to see niche features... something like that is a one off operation that you could probably easily do in an emulator using your NES save file...

[fierce estuary]

it's rare for me to hear about a new peripheral for nes, so if that happens it's gotta be extreme niche

[solemn sedge]

True, I believe I read the same thing somewhere. Also I believe the turbofileII had it's own little cartridges that would add certain things to games. I think these things were relatively popular in japan given how many I've seen over the years on yahoo auctions japans. But that's just my opinion, I don't have hard data.

[jade zenith]

when are we getting support for the nintendo hands free controller

[clever scarab]

You can use it through SNAC

[jade zenith]

holy shit

mister wins again

[fierce estuary]

u-force?

[amber willow]

I'm guessing this

[echo tree]

wouldnt mister already support that

[amber willow]

yeah mmg2 was probably just joking

[echo tree]

if it goes over the controller port cant you just snac it in

I need to make sure for when i get my own nes hands free

[amber willow]

i'm going to guess they're rare and pricey

[amber willow]

yeah nvram loading, saving is something I'd like to add

[fierce estuary]

it was cool they made that for disabled kids

[digital rampart]

Reminds me of the story that one of the SNES Coprocessors was also used in Stephen Hawking's text to speech

[fierce estuary]

gosh it's a shame he didn't live to this era of AI voices, he could have sounded perfectly like a beautiful, slightly flirtacious woman

[digital rampart]

It was a generic chip, but it just so happened to be that through Higan that the chip had documentation

And as a result, for the last year of his life, he was using an emulated version of his voice

[covert crypt]

FML, even Stephen Hawking didn't run on original hardware

[cursive sable]

IIRC he had opportunities before to upgrade to a more natural voice but declined, because apparently the voice was based on a friend who had died, it had sentimental value to him

[inland blade]

The SPC700??

[digital rampart]

Something NEC made which was used in Pilot Wings and a few others

[inland blade]

Ah, the DSP chip I guess

[grand jewel]

NEC 77P20D for Hawkins.

Near worked on the μPD77C25 variant from what I remembered about our discussions back then.

[clever scarab]

I DIDNT KNOW HE DIED

HOLY SHIT

[jade zenith]

wait until you hear what else he did

[clever scarab]

I really didn’t know lol

[fierce estuary]

he died shortly before Neil deGrasse Tyson

[clever scarab]

Ahhhhh I looked that up, you can’t fooo me!!!

[cursive sable]

Wait till you hear about Jackie Chan

[clever scarab]

He signed my book

[digital rampart]

The singer?

[cursive sable]

There's a singer?

[granite pivot]

What about Curt Smith? Wasn't he mauled by a panther?

[digital rampart]

Yeah. Apparently he did some martial art movies before this?

[graceful python]

You had me panic searching Google. I hope you step in dog poop tomorrow

[fierce estuary]

Lol

[inland blade]

His brother Mike is still alive. He even got his own NES game! 😮

[half pasture]

Heard Mike got into a fight recently against an youtuber and got his ass kicked

[fierce estuary]

true facts

[inland blade]

I guess that youtuber had a plan until he got punched in the face 😄

[dry lynx]

Please don’t remind me 😭

[half pasture]

About the fight or the thong? 🤔

[dry lynx]

Both

[mellow tusk]

So for the NES, unless I’m playing some very obscure bootleg or some homebrew that’s basically cheating, MiSTer should always win?

[urban meadow]

MiSTer wins again!

[digital rampart]

AFAIK all official cartridges and FDS games work.

No idea if like, Famicom Karaoke is supported.

[clever scarab]

Yes

[dry lynx]

When doesn’t it?

[hasty river]

Famicom Karaoke, maybe

[dry lynx]

…who gives a shit?

[digital rampart]

My soul is immense and must be heard

[digital rampart]

Ok but this game did something kinda interesting with the text sprites

Basically the text is overlayed on top of eachother. Brown = side 1, gold = side 2, mint-y color = both

[rain blade]

I think that's just 1bpp. Some games store their font graphics like that.

[cursive sable]

I recall watching a video on how an English Translation for Dr Slump on PSX was made, and the font was stored like that too, characters overlayed on each other and the pallet it used determined what character displayed basically

[digital rampart]

I set the "1bpp" mode in the tile editor and got the "real" versions of the sprites

[covert crypt]

It's how the "3D" Sega logo was pulled off in Sonic 3D too

[cursive sable]

Yeah, I remember the dev making a video about that

[fierce estuary]

if it has the mapper for it properly implemented

the base system is super accurate but the mappers are a more mixed bag

[blissful prairie]

Is there anything to gain from the new MMC5 schematics that Furrtek did recently? Or is that mapper considered good already.

[fierce estuary]

not at the moment

[cursive sable]

That reminds me, there was someone working on implementing save support for the flashrom mappers wasn't there? Did anything come of that or did it hit problems?

[last leaf]

Has anyone played Kirby's Adventure on the NES core?

Is there anything special you need to do to make it work better? I have Extra Sprites enabled, but I get audio popping and severe slowdown anytime I use a special ability.

[covert crypt]

That's just how the game is

At least from my knowledge. Have you compared it to footage from original hardware?

[inland blade]

That's how the game works on original hardware, indeed. I know that game very well. Just play it, don't pay so much attention to those defects.

[livid leaf]

Oh no, Kirby's Adventure is just like that. It really pushes the limitations of the NES/Famicom hardware, being a very late release. So while it visually looks impressive, it comes at the cost of bad performance in spots. It's the only blemish in an otherwise top tier NES/Famicom game.

[hasty river]

You could play Nightmare in Dreamland on GBA which is a remake I think

[inland blade]

Ah, yes, true 🙂 Good game all around. But I prefer the NES original.

[hasty river]

Well the good news bad news is that it's running as intended!

[inland blade]

Yes, it is

[fierce estuary]

theres probably rom hacks

[jade zenith]

the only hack that actually improves performance is this one, which reduces the amount of inputs that get eaten https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/7595/

[covert crypt]

But Kirby is all about eating

[mellow tusk]

Does NES Metroid push the limits of the NES, or is it just badly optimized?

[clever scarab]

uses mmc1 mapper so probably a combo of badly optimized and not having enough juice in the mapper

[jade zenith]

metroid 1 falls into the same category as daytona usa saturn for me; that is to say, "so poorly optimized that i feel like the game may break in half at any moment"

[granite pivot]

I was watching a video talking about the NES Commando recently and that one is definitely poorly optimized.

though in this case, it was probably rushed and an optimization may have been planned

[urban meadow]

Pretty much anything from Micronics is poorly optimized on NES.

[covert crypt]

That channel also did a video in how poorly optimised Metroid is

The FDS version was bad but the NES conversion made it worse. Apparently the door logic is really unoptimised.

[tepid umbra]

Documenting how it's bad is one thing, but making a fix for it would be the true sigma grindset move.

[amber willow]

In metroid if you open a door then don't go all the way through it and let the bubble close then press up,down repeatedly weird things happen.

[mellow tusk]

Samus goes upwards, climbing through the wall.
If you want to scale upwards, you need to make sure to jump when near the top of the screen, else Samus will screen wrap, and thus cause her to move downwards.

[granite pivot]

Commando supposedly wasn't (from Micronics), but still shares similarities with the Micronics developed games.

[covert crypt]

Good old early Varia suit

[amber willow]

yeah I was just trying to get people who never saw it to try it and experiment

[mellow tusk]

https://nesmaps.com/maps/Metroid/Brinstar.html
If it wasn’t for needing at least 33 missiles to kill Mother Brain (the Zebetites remain destroyed after destroying them, even if you die and restart back at the beginning of Tourian, but there’s no way to restore your missiles while fighting Mother Brain, as the Rinkas in the boss arena don’t drop anything), you could beat Metroid without ever stepping into either Kraid’s Lair, Norfair, or Ridley’s Lair, and with a few upgrades to make it easier.

Alas, you need to enter at least one other area to get the needed missiles to kill Mother Brain, though you can skip having to kill both Ridley and Kraid via some ice beam-bomb jump platforming.

[covert crypt]

The slowdown in the Mother Brain fight feels like one of those nightmares where you're running away from someone in slow motion

[clever scarab]

Alas, poor Mother Brain! I knew her, Samus: a fellow
of infinite evil, of most excellent cunning.

[blissful prairie]

Must be a female then

[fierce estuary]

🤨

[clever scarab]

yeah I didn’t know how to respond to that other than

https://tenor.com/view/when-mom-say-go-back-gif-25117905

[tepid umbra]

I learned in metroid that girls can be both good AND evil.

[cursive sable]

I learned in Mario that mushrooms are good and turtles are evil

[clever scarab]

I like that he came into her house and dropped that lmao

it’s like me coming in here and making fun of her color choice for Mario’s sky

[tepid umbra]

The sky is indigo, correct?

[clever scarab]

It’s like vermillion chartreuse according to her

[cursive sable]

🎵 I see skies of grey, grey roses too, I'm colorblind, can't see blue 🎵

(I'm not actually colorblind)

[clever scarab]

She said she used math but I lowkey think Kitrinx failed art school

[fierce estuary]

color blindness sounds sad

that's like not being able to taste bacon

[cursive sable]

Apparently a lot of people have gone for years without even realizing they are colorblind

[fierce estuary]

it's only men right?

[clever scarab]

lol the lady is flexing on us dudes

[cursive sable]

No idea, I am pretty sure I have seen women be colorblind too

[clever scarab]

[fierce estuary]

I think it's very rare

it's an X linked trait

[cursive sable]

Yeah, it's less likely

[clever scarab]

yeah men are way more likely to have it

Thanks for reminding us!!!

[fierce estuary]

men are missing a chromosome

[clever scarab]

what

[cursive sable]

?

[fierce estuary]

well you have Y, but it's like a crappy little stub

[clever scarab]

lol

[cursive sable]

😛

[clever scarab]

flexing on us again!!!

you know what, ok, we came to her house and she’s enacting castle doctrine

😵

[cursive sable]

#Y{If RNG*1000 > 200 set colorblind = yes; return 0}

That should have been < but whatever

I mean, as long as you aren't born colorblind it's not like it will develop later such as an allergy or lactose intolerance

Not counting a friend of mine who lost the ability to see blue from a hit to the head...

[jade zenith]

metroid is a girl

[covert crypt]

Also unable to crawl

[jade zenith]

most women can't from what i've heard

[covert crypt]

This is why they put Adam in Other M

[echo tree]

how many men can turn into a small ball that can roll around in tubes?

[clever scarab]

I can

[covert crypt]

Like a man needs more small balls in his life

[tepid umbra]

Extra chromosome, extra love ❤️

[fierce estuary]

it's not extra

it takes the place of an X chromosome

this is why men have all those X linked diseases

[steep yew]

Women are just human v1.1

[fierce estuary]

if you have 2 X chromosomes, all the important stuff has a backup copy if it's a bad variant. Y chromosome has very little genetic material in it, mostly just instructions to make sperm. It lacks all the other non-sex related stuff that the X chromosome has

this is why you can live without a Y chromosome, but if you have no X at all due to chromosomal deletion, you will die

what's fun is that sometimes a little piece of the Y can break off and transpose with a piece of an X, so you can have men who are XX, and they get all the perks

[tepid umbra]

Robby is gonna be soooo uncomfortable when he reads the stuff about sperm.

[cursive sable]

How did me making a joke about the sky color in mario turn into this

[fierce estuary]

colors -> colorblindness -> x lnked characteristics

[tepid umbra]

The sky is sperm colored.

[fierce estuary]

you need to see a doctor

[cursive sable]

... you might want to see a doctor

[fierce estuary]

are you this guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Karason

[cursive sable]

So his skin used to emulate the sky in Mario correctly?

[fierce estuary]

pretty close

[covert crypt]

Developer intended skin tone

[cursive sable]

Also, Periwinkle Skies sounds like name of an album cover from the 60s or 70s 🤣

[tepid umbra]

Kit doxed me.

[fierce estuary]

you're looking pretty good for a guy that died in 2013

[cursive sable]

He got better

[tepid umbra]

Thank you kit! 🥰

[dreamy marten]

Plenty of people are not color blind yet choose horrible colors

[steep yew]

How dare you

[dreamy marten]

I think you pick a lot of great colors

[steep yew]

thanks man

[solemn sedge]

Thank you for this!!! Will try to test out in next day or so.

[clever scarab]

@candid rapids does this include all the latest unstable submits? I ask so I can point to this build in the pins.

[candid rapids]

Yes, it's up to date against main

[clever scarab]

Thanks, man. ONTO DE PEEEEENS

[mellow tusk]

Is there an NES game that uses the SNES mouse?

[candid rapids]

This has a pretty good list: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/NES_MiSTer/issues/374

[mellow tusk]

Interesting.

[teal ivy]

aside from the ones on that list, i also know about Cronela's Mansion and CrossPaint https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZi35GkGvmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUarpFtt0LE&theme=dark

[blissful prairie]

The "uncensored" Maniac Mansion romhack includes the SNES mouse hack as well.

[cursive sable]

Oh neat, is this an option I choose when selecting what controllers are attached? Does this support SNES controllers too then?

Currently the only way I know to do that is to use a SNES SNAC adapter and a SNES to NES cable

[amber willow]

snes controllers should already work on the the nes core with snac using the snes adapter, snes mouse may work too. His build is for usb mouse to act as a snes mouse I'd say

[candid rapids]

This allows emulation of the SNES mouse with a USB mouse. Support through SNAC already existed.

[cursive sable]

Yeah, I was asking if you enabled ot by selecting a controller in the OSD, and it there was already snes controller support the same way

[cursive sable]

I know, I mentioned they can work through SNAC. I was asking if there was a way to set using a SNES controller on NES through the OSD, using a standard USB or Bluetooth controller

[candid rapids]

Ah, maybe I'll look at that in the future. https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/SNES_controller

[fierce estuary]

it's easy but do it carefully or it will break a bunch of tests

and some games

I don't really like using other system peripherals for nes, feels kind of dirty

[cursive sable]

Actually, for doing it through SNAC, do you need to use a NES SNAC and a SNES to NES cable, or can you just use a SNES SNAC adapter on the NES core? I tried that, and in 240pee's SNES controller test kept thinking X and Y were held down until I pressed them, not sure if that's normal behavior for trying to use SNES controllers on a NES or if something is wrong with using a SNES SNAC adapter or the 240pee app itself

[mellow dawn]

NES and SNES controllers are identical electrically. The only difference is how they respond (for standard controllers SNES continues returning data after the NES has completed its buttons). Things like the mouse return different formatted data but the electronics are agnostic.

[amber willow]

does that snes controller work in game? For me with snes controller in snes snac adapter it works in game and in 240pee in that specific snes controller test, all buttons work including XALR. (usb p2 thinks XALR are pressed )

[cursive sable]

It works in games, yeah. There can even be Homebrew designed to use all of the buttons

[clever scarab]

lol pee

[fierce estuary]

it will work but things will only read the nes compatible buttons

you could read more, it's just a shifter

but it's up to software to interpret that

[amber willow]

there's a test there for snes controllers and snes mouse. so that software does read the extra bits

and it did work for me, Akuma seemed like he had trouble with it, so I just tried quickly to confirm

I knew snes controllers worked because I've tried it before, just making sure it didn't get broken at some point.

[fierce estuary]

you can test for it, but making nes games that dont use nes controllers is a shit practice

[amber willow]

has anyone made any HB that supports the extra buttons of snes controller? I kind of doubt it

for Akuma this is what I see with nothing pressed on snac as p1

[cursive sable]

What if it's optional to let you do things easier than with an NES controller?

[fierce estuary]

still a bad practice

nes already suffers from too many peripherals

[cursive sable]

Pretty sure I have heard of some, also some of the NES to SNES ports support it though that's technically an SNES game. Also if that Former Dawn game ever ends up not being vaporoware it will optionally support both the snes controller and mouse

[fierce estuary]

you cant trust developers to be responsible with the inch you give them, so better not to give it at all

make it a standard feature and soon all the homebrew will require 4 buttons

[cursive sable]

I don't think a single homebrew requires it

In fact, one of the ports of Megaman to NES had to add an option to disable SNES buttons for people who were using NES controllers on their SNES to play it

Because it would otherwise keep thinking the snes buttons were being pressed down

[fierce estuary]

that's because it's not a standard feature

[cursive sable]

Well, it was a port of a NES game to a SNES, they probably expected people would be using SNES controllers for that...

[fierce estuary]

why and how would use you use a nes controller on snes

I think first party wouldnt look held down either, but third party might

iirc nes controllers will return 1 when over-read

[cursive sable]

No idea, but apparently people were using NES controllers on their SNES to play those ports of NES games to SNES, and it was causing problems for some that added support for SNES buttons

[fierce estuary]

i dont know of any megaman snes ports either

[cursive sable]

IIRC it was one of the megaman games, added I think autofire and quick switching on the SNES buttons

[fierce estuary]

what game did capcom do this with

[cursive sable]

They are homebrew ports, not official

[fierce estuary]

oh they are garbage

[cursive sable]

😛

[amber willow]

only way on real hw would be an nes<>snes adapter cable. if the snes game didn't use XALR it would work ok

you could test on the snes coer with the nes adapter

[fierce estuary]

what im hearing is "people doing dumb stuff creates ux issues"

[cursive sable]

Eh, it was people using an NES controller on an SNES that was causing the issue, even though it was to play an NES game on the SNES

That reminds me, did Mario All Stars use the extra buttons in any way? I don't recall

Only real reason I bothered with those ports is because they also add MSU-1 support XD

[fierce estuary]

it's awful

but of course the snes cant play the audio of nes

so I guess they just decide to make it all the way horrible

[cursive sable]

What? But it's such a great expirence to have an NES game open with an FMV intro and then have the option to choose an all-acapella soundtrack!

[fierce estuary]

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

I spend my days making sure every rising edge of a sound wave is nanosecond accurate and this is what you pinapple pizza eating gooners do?!

[cursive sable]

Hey! There are worse things than pineapple pizza

[fierce estuary]

not many

[cursive sable]

.... apparently banana pizza is big in Sweden

[amber willow]

I don't hate the nes to snes ports, I want to see someone redraw the sprites and expand the colors of one of them.

[cursive sable]

I only even ran into them because I was downloading all the MSU-1 hacks to check out on my mister

... though I think the ports of the Gameboy Pokemon games with orchaestral soundtracks is overdoing it

[solemn sedge]

Hmm.. I request the USB SNES mouse on NES support. I love pineapple on pizza. .......... your comment checks out.

[cursive sable]

... I'm not going to ask about the last part

[solemn sedge]

...though to be fair, I would NEVER get Pineapple on a real New York slice, which sadly you can not get a decent version of in my part of the country.

[cursive sable]

I am more of a Chicago Deep Dish guy myself

But I am from Chicago so...

[solemn sedge]

I'm in Kentucky. My pizza options are meh.

[cursive sable]

oof

No Pequods 🙁

[fierce estuary]

kentucky, this checks out with your trailer park peripheral tastes

I'm a new york city console purist. Only upper east side peripherals here.

[granite pivot]

It was mainly 3rd party controllers from 8bitdo and brook acting up due to mixing SNES and NES registers with the aftermarket NES ports. The NES registers were ported directly, which caused problems.

It was fixed in later builds of the games, which use the SNES registers.

[hasty river]

No they just used the face buttons to mirror the other face buttons

[mellow dawn]

Shortly after arriving in Bulgaria I ordered some pizza with what I recognized as the word for chicken. I did not know the word for peas. Guess what else was on the pizza. It wasn't bad per se, but it was unexpected.

After that I did always recognize the word for peas though.

[glacial pecan]

as long as it wasn't pineapple

[dreamy marten]

Some people hate tropical fruit

Extremists.

Even to the point where they don't drink guava juice or snack on rambutan.

[cursive sable]

Like I said, could have been worse. I recall a Swedish streamer mentioning how he likes a pizza that among other ingredients had curry powder and bananas. Apparently bananas are a common pizza topping in Sweden.

[dreamy marten]

People here, discussing the best console, pretending they never even had a cooked banana.

[mellow dawn]

To bring it around, have you ever had grilled pineapple? Amazing.

[mint lichen]

Full Quiet is probably the biggest one that lets you use the SNES buttons. Spook-o-tron might be another, that one can use Virtual Boy controller at least

[dreamy marten]

Sounds delicious

[last leaf]

That sucks. I played it so many years ago I've forgotten. Even audio popping?

[fierce estuary]

The past doesn't haunt us. Wouldn't even recognize us. If there are ghosts to be found, it's us who haunt the past. We haunt it, so we can look again. See the games we miss, and the things we missed about them.

[digital rampart]

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/5482/ This translation doesn't work, although it also wouldn't on actual hardware

[fierce estuary]

well, they should make a better translation then

[digital rampart]

Just mentioning this as documentation

[fierce estuary]

fair, but as far as I can figure it's neither a bug nor an issue if it doesn't work on real hardware

[digital rampart]

TBH I'm curious how easy it would be to "fix" this on the ROM's side of things. I know a lot of games have romhacks that "just" change the mapper

[fierce estuary]

well firstly I cant even make the rom because it uses bps and it's a mystery what header it wants

but it's not 2.0 headers which sucks

there's a non zero chance the header is just bad

beyond that i'd guess it causes OAM corruption, which is common with hacks untested on real hardware

or it just uses a mapper in a way that a mapper isnt supposed to work, many low quality hacks do that

[granite pivot]

There was one hack using bps that made a 2.0 header, but expected a ROM with a 1.0 header

[covert crypt]

Maybe this is why Nintendo sues everyone

[clever scarab]

Not to be a sourpuss, but rom hacks that don’t work on real hardware should be outlawed.

[digital rampart]

According to the hack developer, it's because flashcarts generally don't support this mapper

[clever scarab]

too late, off to jail!

[half pasture]

ROM hack police

[hasty trout]

Fixed it, could use some testing to make sure I didn't break anything.

It just needed 1 more bit added to the prg_innerbank register

The header will need modifying too

Match it up to my header here.

[digital rampart]

Is there a good iNES editor like this that runs on Windows?

[hasty trout]

That is actually a win32 application running under WINE

it's called nes2edit

https://forums.nesdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=16587

[hasty trout]

Here’s the changes in source form:

https://github.com/MP2E/NES_MiSTer/commit/585835806a52ba6c779b566b01da95638b27d0b6

[cursive sable]

While not a standalone editor, the emulator puNes has a pretty good header editor in it

[fierce estuary]

after looking at it, the hacker basically doubled the size of the prg rom which is 2x what the mapper actually supports

emulators tend to be very unpicky about enforcing correct rom sizes, but mister does, and so does real hardware

he's violating the specs of the mapper

I dont think we should support violating mapper sizes

I hate that

[cursive sable]

https://tenor.com/view/elder-scrolls-stop-you-violated-the-law-gif-21698958

[digital rampart]

Hmmm. I wonder if it'd be ok to define it in terms of being a new submapper. Like it's a bootleg that was just never pressed to silicon

[fierce estuary]

I don't like it developers make their problems my problems

they should use an existing mapper that fits their needs

[cursive sable]

There are tons of broken romhacks that were never tested on real hardware, can't try to make edge cases for them all

[fierce estuary]

we already have like 500 mappers

im sure they can find one that does the trick

[cursive sable]

IIRC there are romhacks that only work properly in Nesticle and ZSNES because they were made back when those were the only emulators anyone was using for those systems and peopel generally didn't have a way to run roms on original hardware

[digital rampart]

How easy would changing mappers be if I have no ASM experience?

[cursive sable]

Chooses the Former Dawn mapper

[fierce estuary]

I dunno, depends how good AI is these days

because otherwise you arent

you kinda need to understand 6502 machine code

[digital rampart]

Fair. I have such bad ADHD brain that I leave a graveyard of projects in my wake

[cursive sable]

Graveyard? Most of my projects are the equivalent of still being in the crib

[fierce estuary]

I lose interest in some, but everyone does

I finish enough that it works out

[mellow dawn]

My opinion on this has changed. #1091056042667937944 message

[fierce estuary]

it creates and will continue to create messy situations like this forever

end up with like 8mb prg roms

[cursive sable]

So that 100MB NES ROM I created is a no-go?

[fierce estuary]

former dawn mapper is for you

[cursive sable]

That's not even former dawn

That was just some homebrew multi-cart mapper I was testing just for the hell of it

[mellow dawn]

My thoughts are in multiple messages there. My primary reasoning is its better than creating more mappers and the same mapper can be used for different hardware implementations and the out-of-spec size can be an indicator that it is not using the original chips.

Basically it acts as an implied submapper.

[cursive sable]

Aren't a lot of the unofficial mappers very slight changes/tweaks to existing ones anyway? Yeah, that's a mess

Not coutning homebrew mappers meant for modern flashrom

[fierce estuary]

usually not slight

[cursive sable]

ouch

[fierce estuary]

mmc3 in particular has a lot of similar but different varieties

mostly now they make nearly-the-same mappers submappers

[cursive sable]

Aren't those official though?

[fierce estuary]

they are official but most of them have significant differences from each other

like the method the IRQ is timed

[jade zenith]

imo software emulators/FPGA cores should just focus on replicating the hardware as closely as possible. if a hack doesn't work on real hardware, then ideally the hack itself should be fixed, instead of adding a fix or compatibility mode to make it work

[covert crypt]

Absolutely agree

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the core's goalposts to be moved

If it doesn't work on original hardware then the problem is with the software itself

[jade zenith]

yeah, absolutely. the problems begin when the authors of broken hacks either can't or don't want to go back and fix whatever's wrong with their game

...that said, i have seen some SMW hacks get fixed for real hardware nearly a decade after their release, so maybe it's not an entirely unrealistic expectation

[covert crypt]

Yeah that's all good, so long as the onus is on the hack author

All these new mappers nark me off too. If you're making games for a console that's no longer supported, stick to era-accurate components

[jade zenith]

agreed. i know it's been beaten to death in this thread, but former dawn's mapper is just ridiculous lol

[cursive sable]

I agree, though the issue becomes a little muddy with cartridge-based systems that had enhancement chips like the NES mappers and the SNES in general

[covert crypt]

Sure but even then, there were only a certain number available.

I guess my approach is that you should make games for old hardware using the pool of resources available at the time. If you need to make new stuff to make it run on old hardware then just make it run on new hardware.

[fierce estuary]

with the number of mappers available, if you can't make a game work on it, you shouldn't make that game the way you are trying to make it

that's my attitude

if you need more hardware to make it work, maybe you are making the game for the wrong system

[jade zenith]

that's right. they should make games for a better system instead; the PC engine

[steep yew]

it had turbo on the controller

[fierce estuary]

or, you know, steam

the reason to make a game for an old console is to make it for the old console

[mellow tusk]

Does this core have the ability to directly output the somewhat offspec composite signal that a real NES does?

[fierce estuary]

no

[main narwhal]

the stock PC Engine provides many features that needed a mapper on the FC (such as split vertical scroll)

[steady current]

Hey can anyone send the kitrinx color palette here? I'd like to convert it to an asesprite palette to draw some awesome fanart

[vivid roost]

the ones in here? https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/NES_MiSTer/tree/master/Palette

[steady current]

Thanks!

Now I've gotta figure out how to convert this to an aseperite palette 🤔

with how nice this palette looks i'd love to use it to make art haha

[steady current]

Here's a converted file of Kitrinx to Asesprite for anyone to use! Happy arting!

[fierce estuary]

neat 🙂

[white falcon]

can someone help me set up the vs duck hunt port for some reason i cant start anything

[round ravine]

You want free play for gun only mode, or coin bound to a usb controller. Then SNAC and light gun both on in options. I think gun in player 1 side of SNAC

There is an annoying chime until you reset game from in mister menu

(The game only does boot time hardware checking)

[white falcon]

for some reason the rom doesnt work on my mister

it works fine in emulator but when i boot it on the mister it just goes to a grey screen

[white falcon]

@fierce estuary apologies for the ping but do you know how to set up vs duck hunt for the mister?

I cant seem to find information on how to do it online

[timber lava]

here #1091056042667937944 message

[amber willow]

sounds like rom problem, maybe in the wrong spot. Robby mentioned where to put everything. I would think it would give you a warning about that though.

[round ravine]

You need the mamestyle rom .zip in the games/mame folder for vs games. Not the ines conversions

[white falcon]

Oh i didnt know there was a straight up vs arcade core now

But people have played the vs conversion rom before on mister?

I will try the vs arcade core though

Is it on update all?

[round ravine]

me and my kids did so i know they worked, the duck hunt vs and super mario vs conversion hacks

[round ravine]

its here #1091056042667937944 message

[violet yoke]

Are there plans to add the VS core to the arcade section on update all?

[white falcon]

Alright i guess it was just a bad rom or something that i used for the base patch

[round ravine]

md5sum of working duckhunt vs hack to normal nes: 66350bc16c7b74b3101a9c11caddc48b
but the straight vs build is "better" beside the annoyance of coin having to be usb

[clever scarab]

I think @amber willow was investigating the best solution to include them as part of _Arcade folder.

Do all the VS System MRAs just get added to the base folder, like every other arcade MRA or should they be bundled together in their own folder? There are benefits and negatives to both.

[glacial turtle]

Are there currently any sub folders?

Presumably arcade organiser could put them all in one place for people who use that

[clever scarab]

Just alternatives and cores

[glacial turtle]

How many Vs games mras are there?

[clever scarab]

From the last publicly released batch, I counted 36 original ones, and 18 of them were alternatives

so 54

[glacial turtle]

That's not many really, some other boards will have similar amounts of games

[clever scarab]

yeah, I imagine the Saturn one has quite a bit

[glacial turtle]

I would up reading a bit about the Famicom Network System, which I hadn't thought about for a long time. Definitely a contender for Nintendo's weirdest add on, using a Famicom to buy stocks and bet on horses.

Interestingly people have managed to dump the ROMs from the thing but seems still nobody has got them to boot, or emulate them. Even in 2026 there are still black box aspects to the Famicom/NES

ROM dumped
In September 2019, Ben Boldt, a user of the forum site NesDev, obtained a Famicom Network System modem and a JRA-PAT ROM, which he dumped with fellow site user Fiskbit.[4] In addition, Nomura no Famicom Trade and Super Mario Club were also dumped in October-November 2020 and subsequently surfaced at No-Intro. The ROMs were given the file extension FCN, but run is currently impossible because no emulator currently supports the file. In addition, Forest of Illusion obtained the JRA-PAT and Super Mario Club ROMs, dumped them with Hard4Games, and surfaced. The ROMs were NES files, but have not been emulated.[5][6] Fiskbit owns and has dumped most of the currently known Famicom Network System-specific ROMs, but these have not yet surfaced.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Family_Computer_Network_System/TV-NET_(partially_found_ROM_and_peripherals_of_telecommunication_service_for_Famicom;_1987-1991)

[digital rampart]

Also the fact that Minnesota tried

[glacial turtle]

There is a lengthy NES Dev thread about it spanning several years

https://forums.nesdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=18530

Doesn't seem they have cracked it yet but jumping to the end

Maybe has been semi-abandoned

[white falcon]

How do you check md5sum

[mellow dawn]

If you have the file unzipped you can even do it on the MiSTer

ssh into it and run

md5sum game.nes

If you are on windows you can use a tool like HxD to calculate common checksums

[cursive sable]

HxD can calculate checksums?

I just use Hash My Files, can hash many files at once and gives me multiple checksums, lets me see what checksums match too

[jade zenith]

i use 7zip 🗿

[fathom ingot]

Powershell provides a native Windows method to calculate checksums.

Get-FileHash filepath -Algorithm MD5 | Format-List

[mellow dawn]

It does. And can even checksum a selection from a file instead of the whole thing. You can checksum just the prg or chr or rom without the header.

[round ravine]

dont even need to fully unzip
unzip -p gamename.zip | md5sum

just unzips to ram and then sums that, never writes to disk

[teal ivy]

haven't checked recently but there was still some Famicom Network System activity at the nesdev discord server last year. they helped me figure out how to dump the save on my Super Mario Club card (no idea if it'll be useful but they have it now)

also, last year or so, an extremely rare Go game for FNS was found and bought by a friendly collector who wanted to dump it (dunno if he's done it by now). this game is fascinating because not only did it have a replay system and a message board but, according to this ad, it even had crossplay with the Go game for the Mega Drive's Mega Modem

[cursive sable]

Surprised it had cross-play, IIRC originally X-Band was going to have that with some games (or possibly with them making their own games designed for cross-play) but Nintendo said no

[teal ivy]

huh, didn't know that. i don't know if any of the supported games on SNES/Genesis were similar enough that crossplay would be possible, but making their own crossplay games sounds realistic. when both players inserted a Link to the Past cart, you'd get a simple maze game that took place within the XBAND OS. i could definitely see something like that supporting crossplay.

[real matrix]

Is there any way to accurately emulate the look of NTSC composite on the NES core? Either using real composite out or some kind of filter

S-Video to composite doesn't give me a very convincing effect compared to a real NES

And the MiSTer's native composite out looks even wonkier

[grizzled tusk]

The core can't output the same signal a NES PPU outputs.

[real matrix]

Is there some kind of technical limitation preventing that?

[fierce estuary]

no

[fierce estuary]

yes

it's not that we can't generate the signal up to the point where it's digital

but the ppu has a serpentine resistor thing in it and a variety of analog quirks like out of spec voltages that the mister can't produce, and there's also no way to get a pre-mangled composite signal actually up to anywhere useful

[half pasture]

Core stopped auto-open OSD when loaded?

Please make NES core great again

[real matrix]

Ah. No way to recreate that circuitry in hardware either, I presume?

[hasty river]

Auto open? In this economy?

[half pasture]

Is the OSD opening up when you load the core?

[fallen brook]

OSD opens fine over here on latest unstable (not the mouse build)

@steep yew said the same on SNES core

tried updating everything, both cores still open OSD on boot for me. what's going on?

[half pasture]

Cold rebooted the living room MiSTer. Latest unstable main. NES core doesn’t open OSD on boot anymore. Lemme test it on the bedroom MiSTer

[tepid umbra]

Bedroom MiSTer? That sounds really sexy.

[half pasture]

Ok, the culprit is the latest unstable main. Reverted to the latest release version (https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/blob/master/releases/MiSTer_20260220) and the NES core shows OSD now on boot (but now I have the pinkish color via HDMI, that was fixed by @tame flame in the latest unstable).

Will keep using latest unstable and manually open the OSD until everything settles 😌

Ok, this version still works and I have both the pink screen fixed plus NES core OSD automatically opening on boot: #help message

So the issue is with the most recent unstable main version then

I would bet that @quasi axle is the culprit here!

Opened an issue: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/issues/1108

[fierce estuary]

please delete this issue and open an issue with main, it's not the core's problem

[half pasture]

But it was opened as main issue? 🤔

[fallen brook]

indeed

[half pasture]

Indeed a main issue 😌

[fierce estuary]

oh

sorry not enough cofffee

[clever scarab]

I think all cores that don’t have a bios should always auto load the menu

But that’s easy for me to say since I don’t have to do the work

[fallen brook]

even with a bios, typically a user would want to load up a game if you ask me

[tepid umbra]

Big if true

[cursive sable]

Is the menu auto-appearing a per-core thing? Feels like they never auto-appeared for me, at least in recent memory

[fierce estuary]

it's a thing implemented in the core

typically it's done if the core shows nothing by default

so the user knows its working

like 7800 I think I don't pop the menu because I have an integrated boot rom

[dry lynx]

I plugged in a controller the other day that didn’t have a menu key - loaded up a core and was sad that it was one of the ones that didn’t have the menu auto pop up because it meant I had to turn on a second controller for the menu button 😅

[clever scarab]

Haha get wrecked noob

[dry lynx]

(PSX classic controller while my DS3 was charging)

[dry lynx]

That’s mean 😢

[clever scarab]

I’m sorry I was kidding

[dry lynx]

It’s too late. You hurt my feelings

[clever scarab]

haha get wrecked intelligent and handsome gentleman

[hasty river]

You can map a button combo

[dry lynx]

I can, but that required more effort than pushing a button on another controller 😄

(and I rarely use this one)

[tame flame]

@half pasture try this

[grand jewel]

For me, it fixed the Menu button on the SuperStation (and I can see a menu once more when pressing it).

No more regression on my side.

[fallen brook]

I would like to ask you guys' opinion. not sure if I agree with sorelig here

from a UX perspective, switching system region as set in the header is a nice feature. is there a good use case where users would want to turn this off?

a bad header usually breaks the core anyway if the mapper is wrong for instance

this patch writes back the status bit so it toggles the system type in OSD. if you want to force a wrong system type, you can still do that by toggling it in OSD again

[digital rampart]

Maybe testing? IIRC the Saturn core has an "auto" option implemented for region

[fallen brook]

you can still do testing, the override in OSD still works. if it is a test, you do not need to disable region detection (or want to do it, the game should run normally next time)

I considered an auto option but then you can't tell what the core is doing unless I add a status notification, which I wanted to avoid. not everybody will like that, so then I have another option to disable the notification

[half pasture]

I think he’s just asking for a toggle/option in OSD?

What I think it’s really reasonable

[dry lynx]

Yep, maybe an “auto” setting rather than explicitly changing the same status bit

[livid leaf]

At the very least auto between NTSC and PAL.

[dry lynx]

SECAM users in bits

[grand jewel]

We used PAL-B systems.

[fallen brook]

very well, I will update it tomorrow

[grand jewel]

Just some homebrew games are running too fast, like the PAL version of Estique, but we could override the autodetect.

[hasty river]

I mean it's pretty standard to have

Region: NTSC PAL AUTO

Or something like that

so that would function as a toggle right

[fallen brook]

the thing is that NES probably wont do as good of a job with autodetect as other cores because it requires a nes 2.0 header. if I do the same AUTO option by default like other cores, I have no idea how to lookup what the core is now set to (unless I add a notification like PSX)

probably the reason why autodetect was left out in the first place

or maybe just add a status message when autodetect has failed for missing a nes 2.0 header?

[elfin flume]

Robby, that's for the SG-1000, not the NES

[clever scarab]

I said what I said!

|| ||

[half pasture]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/647909398072655907/1191088736851734608/addtext_com_MTM0MDM5NDI2ODM.png?ex=69ae6b94&is=69ad1a14&hm=e02c619dc47aa308f9a1b47444c5402fbf0123ff2ece0b6457375f8391556099&

[steep yew]

Merged https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/NES_MiSTer/pull/454

[fallen brook]

very quickly spotted, unstable isn´t even built yet. impressive 😄

[steep yew]

Terminally online :/

[quasi axle]

also your auto-osd/osd button are fixed

[fallen brook]

yay there it is

if somebody finds a mistake somewhere be sure to let me know 👍

[clever scarab]

who the heck is the littlegamer87

[steep yew]

https://tenor.com/bmXHO.gif

[half pasture]

It’s @fallen brook

[fallen brook]

it was a throwaway account and some point and now I am stuck with it. who cares

[steep yew]

@half pasture this is fixed with the latest unstable main https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/issues/1108

[clever scarab]

Way to try and trick me, those two names are completely different!

[fallen brook]

how I am picturing Robby right now

[half pasture]

Asterix (PAL) from the HTGDB game pack is broken using the Auto feature on the core. Anyone else having the same issue?

[granite pivot]

and you said what you meant, but it's still the wrong system 100 percent.

[half pasture]

[clever scarab]

That’s it, time to rewrite history so I’m right!!

[violet yoke]

Are you using the NES 2.0 pack? The latest unstable works fine with that version

I have my core set to auto. Tested it earlier today

[granite pivot]

No matter how you rewrite history, Horton the Elephant will always be right. An elephant is faithful 100 percent!

[supple ermine]

Who?

[granite pivot]

Dr. Seuss reference

Horton Hatches an Egg. "I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful one hundred percent"

oh wait, that's a joke too, isn't it? As in Horton hearing a "who".

[half pasture]

Yes, works fine with that. It was just an observation on the HTGDB pack having a bad rom or a bad header

[violet yoke]

Ah I see. Good catch then. Yeah I switched out my entire old HTGBD set for the NES 2.0. It was annoying but worth it

[fierce estuary]

well i've told them like 100x to fix the headers

you can just fix your own with my script

[fallen brook]

broken how? if the header is not NES 2.0, it should just default to NTSC and notify. not break.

[grand jewel]

The NES 2.0 version works correctly with Asterix, that was the first thing I checked on my side 2 days ago (when I built a core with the first pending commit).
Is it possible to disable the message somewhere too ?

[fallen brook]

if you disable the auto yes

[grand jewel]

Okay, simple.

[fallen brook]

I dont like that message either but it is a compromise to fit the project standards. if the core cant do something it is configured to do, it should notify

[fierce estuary]

there's tons of headers, especially with translations and hacks, that have wrong region headers

and most pal roms out there have it unset, which means ntsc

pretty much the only people this feature will work for are gonna be people who use that header fixing script

its one of the reasons I never really wanted to add it

have fun telling people to go fix their headers from now until the end of time when they put in bug reports 🙂

[fallen brook]

I figured something like that

[fallen brook]

also the reason why the notification is in there. if it defaults to NTSC, they will know why

[fierce estuary]

that sounds really irritating to see a message every time

most people will see it most of the time

and not understand why

[fallen brook]

I tried to work around it with something clever but sorg rejected it, not in line with other cores

[fallen brook]

it literally says "no NES 2.0 header found". I hope even those cursed with low intelligence would be able to figure that out

but yeah it's a compromise and the UX was tricky in this case. if it is really bad I'll change the default back to NTSC. we'll see

[fierce estuary]

most people don't know what that means

ines vs 2.0 or why it wouldnt be there

to them, Ines is a kindly old european woman

[fallen brook]

lol 😂

[clever scarab]

why do I need nes 2.0 headers

[fierce estuary]

because they build strong bones and muscle

[hasty river]

well we already do that, so

[clever scarab]

No for real

[cursive sable]

Because 2 > 1

[fierce estuary]

it's an expanded version of the ines header

[clever scarab]

Why does that need to be expanded? Seemed to be working just fine.

[supple ermine]

I think it had problems at mapper 256?

[fierce estuary]

it lacked a lot of nuance

too few mappers,, no differentiation between the behavior of minor differences in the same mapper, etc

[clever scarab]

So if I have no-intro and that’s no nes header 2.0, can I convert it to be?

[fierce estuary]

yes I wrote a script that does that

[violet yoke]

Nice. Can you share the script? Would it be worth pinning it?

[elfin flume]

https://github.com/Kitrinx/NES_Header_Repair

[digital rampart]

One thing I never got about iNES headers is why it's not very "clean"

[fierce estuary]

nes games didn't have headers integrated into the roms, like snes and genesis and etc game did

it was also one of the most popular consoles ever and earliest emulated, so the original roms and header format was overly simplistic

it has a larger variety of cart hardware than any other system as well

so there's tons of old lingering headers floating around

it doesn't help that some things (like the nt mini) aren't compatible with 2.0

so bad pack maintainers wont upgrade

a guy named New Rising Sun made a database of headers a few years back though

and I made a script to use that database to go through them and repair them

so now you can fix whatever you have

[cursive sable]

I didn't know Super Nintendo and Genesis games had headers in them by design, I thought ROM headers in general were something added when dumping them

To let the emulator know what chips the cartridge has in it

[vivid roost]

i guess it makes sense to have a header just for manufacturing convenience

[fallen brook]

I have to ask. if these headers are such a headache, why not implement the NRS db in the core/framework and be done with it?

[fierce estuary]

because then nobody will ever fix their headers

it's part of the problem actually

some emulators did do that, and now headers are even less maintained

in the end they still matter, especially for things that arent in the db

other emulators also do things like intentionally avoid implementing benign function of mappers so they are less authentic but more compatible with bad headers

like mmc6

relying on external metadata is always shitty

it's one of the most gross flaws of mame

[clever scarab]

I like it when an emulator says “fuck your bad roms”

[dry lynx]

For those of us who are dumb and don’t know our iNES from our 2.0. What kind of headers should we have? Or should we be headerless? 😅

Or should we just run everything through Kit’s script?

[tepid umbra]

I have both, 2.0 and normal.

Whatever works, works. It's a game to find out how to get a game to work.

[dry lynx]

All of mine seem to work anyway - I’m just curious what the MiSTer overlords decree as correct

[digital rampart]

The summary as I know it:

1. Headers basically tell the emulator how to handle the game. What region is it, what hardware is on the cart (EG: whether it can save)
2. 2.0 is an expanded version of 1.0 that supports more edge-cases
3. You'd only not want these headers if you're using an emulator that doesn't support them. Also, sometimes an IPS patch will expect either unheadered or 1.0/2.0. In which case you'd likely have to convert beforehand, but afterwards you can restore to 2.0 header state

[dry lynx]

So tl;dr, we want 2.0 headers? Are these iNES 2.0, or something else 2.0?

[grand jewel]

iNES 2.0, that's right.

[dry lynx]

Thanks Zet

[fallen brook]

I named it NES 2.0 in my popup, iNES refers to the older (1.0) stuff. that's the terminology I applied at least

[cursive sable]

The way I see it, that means that the emulator has to keep a database of every game, and correctly identify it. Support would differ from emulator to emulator, romhacks and translations might mis-identify the game, and the database would have to keep getting updated for homebrew. IMO it's far better that this be in the rom as a header, it would prevent all of those issues (Assuming the header is correct and the emulator correctly reads the header) since then you are relying on the game telling the emulator "This is what I am" rather than the emulator checking a list and going "This is what you are... I think"

Though I think in the case of N64 there IS such a database for some reason?

Don't the 2.0 headers also contain the 1.0 data for emulators that can't read 2.0 headers?

[real matrix]

Ideally, iNES 2.0 would have been backwards compatible with iNES 1.0, but I don't think that's even possible due to size limitations

Still a shame to hear that iNES 2.0 isn't more universally supported after all this time

[fierce estuary]

it kind of is

but like missing info is missing info

some games need 2.0 headers, and they are just better

any game with mapper over 255 requires 2.0 to be playable

[real matrix]

Still crazy to think there are over 255 mappers

NES emudevs aren't kidding when they talk about "mapper hell"

[fierce estuary]

a lot more. Not all of them are used anymore, some became obselete as they were better understood, but there are over 255 real ones

[real matrix]

By "real," do you mean used in either a retail game or homebrew?

[fierce estuary]

it doesn't help that people keep making more, or adding invalid ram configurations to existing ones

by "real" I mean a unique hardware configuration that exists in some cart out there

not a duplicate or mild tweak to an existing one

[real matrix]

Oh. So a mapper that uses two different amounts of RAM are considered two different mappers implementation-wise?

[fierce estuary]

typically not, no

[real matrix]

Or just header-wise?

[fierce estuary]

the header will reflect different prg, chr, or ram sizes

sometimes mappers had solder jumpers for things like mirroring

those are also in the header

[real matrix]

Did iNES 1.0 have a limit of one byte for the mapper type, then?

[fierce estuary]

https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/INES

[real matrix]

For some reason, I thought that was just NROM

[fierce estuary]

https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/NES_2.0

[real matrix]

Oh yeah. 16 bytes is very limiting

So if the iNES 2.0 format is backwards compatible, what's the downside of exclusively using 2.0 over 1.0? Are there 1.0-only emulators that use some hackiness to work around incompatibilities or something that wouldn't work with a 2.0 ROM? (like using full-ROM [header+PRG+CHR] checksums to determine information)

[digital rampart]

As with anything there's prolly some app that hasn't been updated in 20 years

[real matrix]

Good ol' xkcd

[digital rampart]

Though TBH the biggest headscratcher with 1.0 is why there are official mappers outside the original 255

In retrospect I think it would be better if there was a cleaner division between "bootleg hardware" and "official products"

[fierce estuary]

they tried to go to UNIF briefly

[cursive sable]

"2. Trainer, if present (0 or 512 bytes)" Ugh, there was space set aside to put trainers in the HEADER?

I guess this was well well before the age of trying to preserve the games as untouched as possible

But I loathed it when I kept trying to find a game back then and every one I found had some broken trainer on it

[fierce estuary]

it made more sense before cheats were like, a feature

sometimes rips were so grody they required a trainer to work at all

[cursive sable]

Surprised that was something that was not an early feature, considering game genies were a thing

[fierce estuary]

there was lots of rips that had weird headers and junk "Ripped by Goobaz!"

[cursive sable]

I just remember back when I could not find a copy of Breath of Fire 2 that did NOT have a trainer on it, which not only did not work, but broke the game's ability to save

Late 90s/early 00s when I was yahooing or metrcrawling random sites that were just people's geocities or angelfire or homestead or whatever pages with a handful of random roms

Goobaz is a funny name though 🤣

[digital rampart]

Trainer in the header is at least the lesser of two evils

In that, the emulator could ignore that section if it wanted

[clever scarab]

I’m gonna take my NES to the old retro road. I’m gonna gaaaaaaame until I can’t no more.

[steep yew]

https://tenor.com/9OeO.gif

[heavy dust]

I've actually been playing my famicom quite a bit lately. Even over RF. Might have rekindled my love for Romance of the Three Kingdoms 2.

[tepid umbra]

I've restarted ff1 on nes after realizing that all modern games just make me sad.

[heavy dust]

Fire and Ice people Fire and Ice. I keep telling people to play it on NES/FC (it's Solomon's Key 2) but people don't do it.

[heavy dust]

I don't have the time for the bullshit of modern games. I have fifteen minutes. I want a game that will give me a complete experience in that time. Castlevania 1 will.

[tepid umbra]

I also enjoy longer games but modern games are just so compromised by conventions and predatory micro transactions.

[glacial pecan]

but does your final fantasy have lower case letters?

[tepid umbra]

It actually does.

[glacial pecan]

damn, unexpected advanced tech

[heavy dust]

now you're playing with Power

[glacial pecan]

phantasy star in shambles 😔 can't hold a candle to readable text

[heavy dust]

That was a frustration with role-playing games of the era, whether or not to name your characters in all caps because you didn’t know how other characters names will work

[zenith mirage]

Sort of actually. The MikeS composite output when output with minimal components does give you a fairly accurate output

The output I've had via several external composite encoders with the latest "subcarrier" option is far too clean. I even tested my own composite encoder with the MikeS subcarrier output which looked as above, the same composite encoder with the subcarrier option looks nothing like it

I'll add, this is nowhere near the proper nes jank, but the staurcase effect on the edges is there. Not had ecen a hint of that on the "subcarrier" option. Nes just looks better to me when it's janky.

[fierce estuary]

well, other than the colors, the blending, and the irregular graphics (jaggy edge quirk) I guess

i'd call it completely artificial personally, but I also think the nes had really bad composite

[heavy dust]

what's the jaggy edge quirk?

And I've been playing my Famicom over RF because it's the longest cable I have and those controller cables are shrt.

[fierce estuary]

straight lines on nes typically look jaggy because of how it generates composite

you can't see it much on crt's but it's really obvious on better tvs

[zenith mirage]

Just as obvious on CRTs really, obnoxious on LCDs but almost breaks up the low colour pallet/resolution on CRTs. Been playing with the output this evening and final stage inductance plays a huge part. I think Mister is doing all it can, if you want accurate (as possible) output over composite you'll need to jank it for nes specifically disregarding other cores or find a happy balance

Not that anyone but me and maybe two other people in the world want to see mister composite like a nes looked BITD 🤷‍♂️

[keen pasture]

you're forgetting those jailbars

the core needs a jailbar filter to be 100% accurate

[zenith mirage]

I've got them on my external encoder if I mess with inductance values on the output stage. I know your joking but depending on your want, it's there

[keen pasture]

I have no idea about anything you said but I would be seriously interested in trying if those work on a CRT; then again, missing composite output weirdness would kinda defeat its purpose

the famicom does have a very specific look that I miss when I play on mister (and I currently don't have a working CRT that accepts NTSC signals so I'm forced to)

[heavy dust]

I thought that was just how composite be

[fierce estuary]

not usually

[timber lava]

New tests were added on AccuracyCoin

[hasty river]

When does it end

[graceful field]

255

[steep yew]

Not right now, she is finishing jaguar. EYE ON THE PRIZE

[amber willow]

what are the 2 new tests? or however many there are

[timber lava]

Last three tests added but I'm not sure error are all linked to new tests
https://github.com/100thCoin/AccuracyCoin/commit/3d4b848a6550277cc800e36c813b042352234989#diff-b335630551682c19a781afebcf4d07bf978fb1f8ac04c6bf87428ed5106870f5
https://github.com/100thCoin/AccuracyCoin/commit/7d1d2faa21a2afafddaf1aa34a118929bf8ce6fa

[cursive sable]

https://tenor.com/view/neva-never-marc-homealone-youcantstopme-gif-9816521

"The VerifySpriteZeroHits subroutine weeds out palse-positives now." Isn't zero sprite hit a funndamental part of the NES? I can't imagine many games were working properly in an emulator that didn't do it correctly, even if it returned a false positive on the test.

"All tests now initialize A, X, and Y to $00 before running." Huh... does this mean that it should not give different results if you have a NES or SNES controller connected to the NES?

[amber willow]

CPUs Accumulator and X,Y registers I assume

[clever scarab]

it won't end until one side concedes

[cursive sable]

Oh, that was stupid of me

[fierce estuary]

eh??

sprite 0 hit false positives would break.. everything

6: The OAM DMA should be able to read from the APU registers (and mirrors of them) if $40 is written to $4016, and the CPU Address Bus is in the range of $4000 to $401F.

1: Reading from $2007 should set up the PPU Read Buffer two ppu cycles after the CPU Read ends. Reading from $2007 (with rendering enabled) should set up the PPU Read Buffer with the same value as the resulting read from the background or sprite fetch that occured on the same ppu cycle as the read for the PPU Read Buffer. If you fail this test, you are likely reading from memory to set up the PPU Read Buffer on the wrong ppu cycle, missing dummy nametable reads during sprite fetch, or missing dummy nametable reads at the end of a scanline.

the first one is a weird edge case, the second one im skeptical of

[cursive sable]

Pretty much what I was thinking, yeah. Even if you somehow trick the test into thining your emulaor does Zero Sprite Hit correctly whenit does not, woulden't that not matter since without it working properly nearly every game would be very broken?

[timber lava]

An update done today of the accuracycoin and the test 6: is pass

[fierce estuary]

I think the other one might fail because my open bus decay might be too fast or too slow for the test

it's not well documented (or even predictable)

I can tweak it, but it's not a critical behavior

actually it's probably because I don't arbitrarily set the 2007 buffer to the oambus when rendering is enabled because nothing ever looks for that

ill fix it anyway when I get a chance

[timber lava]

Jag is more important now 🙂

[blissful prairie]

Just... No 😉

Jag was never important. And will never be. But it's nice to have ofc

[ripe shell]

Latest stable from update_all, Sweet Home with TheSiege's translation hangs as soon as the first cutscene ends

Okay, fixed in unstables

This is a funny trend here

[clever scarab]

Does that translation work on real hardware?

[half pasture]

Where’s the copyright disclaimer? 🤔

Is Robby opensource now?

[cursive sable]

GPLobby

[heavy dust]

I use the BSD license aka the "IDGAF do what you want I'm going back in my cave" license

[ripe shell]

yes, it does

but I wonder if it also freaks out when using Look command on these statues

-# epilepsy warning

thank god this wasn't a game stopper and I've beat it

[hidden isle]

I don't think it's especially good, but I captured all 64 colors from my RGB modded AV Famicom and created a palette with that data and it makes me happy to be able to have my mister perfectly match my av famicom now 🙂

[fierce estuary]

thats not really how colors work in palettes

the tv changes the color

you cant capture from a tv, or the next time it goes through a tv it will change even further from the origin

there's also only 54 colors, several of them are the same black

[rancid bay]

I have a colorimeter and a spectrophotometer so I measured the NES palette off of my two crt tvs. But because the colors don't fit in sRGB/rec709 color space, you have to modify them to make a palette. And then you're just making descisions based on your feelings again.

May as well screenshot a few games with kitrinx's palette and load the screens + palette into photoshop and adjust hue/sat/everything else until you're happy.

[cursive sable]

Just randomely assign a color value to each pallete color every time a game is started, there, now nobody is happy.

[fierce estuary]

the trick with nes palettes is mostly luma

you can tweak chroma a lot, but if luma is authentic the palettes tend to be much more pleasing anyway

it's hard to do that if you work in rgb space

the palete shoudl be somewhat desaturated too

since composite and old tv's are a dumpster fire of infidelity

[heavy dust]

I know collecting Famicom Disk stuff is a fool's errand of counterfits and throwing your money away but look at that

Lolo has no business going so hard

[cursive sable]

I mean, have you seen the other cover the game had?

[heavy dust]

That's the instruction manual which I also have. I hadn't looked too closely (because it also goes hard) but is that clay?

I assumed it was an illustration which is why I preferred the physical props on the disk

but if that's physical too

[cursive sable]

I am pretty sure it's clay, or some other 3d moderling material

[heavy dust]

We lost something when we lost boxes

Fortunately the FDS games with the best art are also usually not very good so I feel safe collecting them.

Kinda like Amiga games

[cursive sable]

Well, this was early 1980s so it's not like that could be 3DCG

Nintendo seemed to eb big on clay advertising in the NES and SNES era, especially in Japan, remember Stunt Race FX?

And there was a shitload of Earthbound stuff like that

[heavy dust]

Right. I'm so used to stuff being CG that the "look" of it just made my brain instantly not be interested even though another second of thought would have shown that it couldn't be.

[cursive sable]

Sad to think that most of this is likely now in a landfill or has rotted to dust in some storage locker

I think there was like, a whole mini-book made of different scenes from Earthbound done in clay to advertise it in JApan

[heavy dust]

This is beyond off topic but since Kitrinx has solved the problem of FC recreation and there's nothing else to discuss, here's behind the scenes of the practical effects to make the classic HBO feature presentation intro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMoxbI1aK9Q

The artistry of those days, just fascinating.

Which makes me think. We need a MiSTer bootcore based on that complete with the music.

Or that should be how MiSTer2 gets introduced.

[cursive sable]

I mean, there was a new AccurcyCoin test that came out a few days ago and the core fails soem of them, but she's busy with Jaguar for now

[heavy dust]

I assume those new tests are just Kitrinx and whoever makes them having fun one-upping each other at this point.

[cursive sable]

Check out old Atari 2600 ads, lot of clay and rubber puppets and stuff in those back then

[heavy dust]

And Jack Black

[hasty river]

"4k"

I think they mean 4 x 4 pixels

[heavy dust]

Just because there's 3840x2160 pixels doesn't mean they picked the best ones. i mean, that's a lot of pixels to fill.

gotta be getting some minor leaguers in there

[hasty river]

Yeah it's a pretty ridiculous thing to put in the title with the source video being 320 x 240 15 fps

played off a VHS from under someone's couch cushions

that being said, that was a badass video, I'd love to see a better quality version

One of, if not the most iconic television intros

[amber willow]

the HBO opening was pretty epic.

I think I can safely show this off, that's the z80 side

[clever scarab]

That’s cool, sorry for the dumb question it what does that mean

[amber willow]

the z80 has roms and makes graphics that are shown on one screen and the nes makes it's own graphics and is shown on another on the dual monitor machine.

[clever scarab]

Oh wow so you have another processor running in addition to the NES in the core?

[amber willow]

the z80 basically controls the nes, it can reset the game or cycle through the slots, it's there to handle the quarters and time. It's kind of like making 2 cores

There's brief instructions for the games too you can look at, pretty unique

[clever scarab]

That’s badass!

[solemn sedge]

Is this running on MiSTer, or are you just showing PC10 images?

[amber willow]

mister screenshots

[hasty river]

So we need to buy 2 TVs?

[amber willow]

no not yet, there's a single monitor cabinet too

[jade zenith]

Fiery Mario

[inland blade]

Does the Z80 part of the system have specialized graphics/audio hardware? If it does, what hardware is that? If it doesn't, how does that part work? I mean, does it simply copy over the graphics to some tilemap memory using the Z80 and that's it?

You got me curious about that NES-outside-the-NES part...

[amber willow]

no audio thankfully, for video the z80 writes to some ram, then that's used to pick the tiles from character roms, and colors from some proms. No custom chips, mainly TTL.

[cursive sable]

Is this like that dual-screen Punchout arcade?

[amber willow]

punchout used the top screen for things like score, time, and power. Something like this

[cursive sable]

I meant is this the same hardware you're working on, or was it something different?

[amber willow]

PC10s z80 stuff is alot simpler than the z80 based punchout game. punchout was a 3 board stack, pc10 is only one board and 1/4 of that is cart slots.

[cursive sable]

I see, so definitely something different then

[blissful prairie]

Yes. Vs. Wrecking Crew also expands a lot on the the standard VS. games

[amber willow]

yes different, but both use some of the same chips to do similar things. maybe designed by the same people, who knows

[amber willow]

vs games might be more interesting than pc10 games, they expanded the gameplay on some of them like balloon fight and wrecking crew because they now had slightly more resources to play with. Some PC10 games are just the nes counterparts.

[granite pivot]

I think Punch Out actually used the NES chip, but only for sound? It also had an extra chip for voice?

[amber willow]

yeah nes cpu for sound fx and another vlm chip for speech.

[inland blade]

Thanks for explaining 🙂

[urban meadow]

Would arcade Punch-Out!! even be possible on MiSTer?

[amber willow]

sure, why not? What would make it not possible?

[urban meadow]

No idea! That's why I was asking!

[amber willow]

those were mister screenshots too, but don't tell anyone 🤫

[steel flume]

A lot of pc10 were converted punch out cabinets

Apparently Nintendo had a lot in a warehouse and pc10 came out of finding another use for them.

I first played SMB3 a few months before it was released on nes in the US on a pc10

[urban meadow]

Same! I played it way too much on the PC10 machine at my local arcade.

[amber willow]

I bet that was a pretty good earner before the release. It might have had this topper on there at the time

[granite pivot]

One arcade had mario bros (non super) as the only game in the pc10 cabinet and the cabinet disappeared shortly afterward

[steel flume]

The machine I played on was at a convenience store up the road from where I lived at the time. It had a pc10 and kid Nikki. Another store had black tiger and a laundry mat had vs. SMB. Didn't have an arcade close by but I knew where the games were..lol

[visual yarrow]

Nice! I was looking for the other games for the same hardware and i did not know there was a sequel : super punchout and a spin-off : arm wrestling

[amber willow]

not exact same HW, SPO had a extra security card and AW had some changes to 2 of the 3 boards.

[topaz siren]

Will it be possible to save the times in Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out?

[primal prairie]

Oh shite I messed up my controller settings
I use a SNES controller for NES games
Y=B, B=A, X=turbo b and A turbo A
How do I set that up again?

[tepid umbra]

Open the menu and go right

Define nes buttons or something

While in the nes core

[primal prairie]

I can configure the controller just fine it’s the additional 2 dedicated turbo buttons that’s giving me trouble

[clever scarab]

Delete the controller config in //media/fat/config/controller/

[primal prairie]

Instead of controller, input folder?

[clever scarab]

Yes

Sorry it’s from memory

[primal prairie]

I’ve got 4 there and one advanced

Clear them all out?

[clever scarab]

Might as well

Back em up first if you want

[primal prairie]

Nah I can always reconfigure

Do you know how to make those additional always turbo buttons?

[clever scarab]

No sorry

[tepid umbra]

Don't be sorry, son. Be better.

[clever scarab]

ok

[hasty river]

I don't know if you can unless it's in the mapping for the core

[quasi axle]

the new button/key remap lets you setup permanent autofire. go into that and hold the 'menu ok' button until you get the advanced menu and you can set it up there

[hasty river]

wait whaaaat

go into what and hold menu ok? The main controller mapping or core

[quasi axle]

core, 'button/key remap' I think it is called

[cursive sable]

permanent autofire? as in you don't even need to press the button?

[quasi axle]

no, as in you set a rate for a button and you can save it instread of having to do the button+osd thing every time you use that core/mra

[hasty river]

Thank you!

[topaz siren]

Hey @amber willow question regarding PC-10: would that be easier scoped as a console core and load up the pc_gamename.zips in the 10 slots, or would it be separate MRAs like the Vs System games? Curious as to which direction you’re headed.

[hasty river]

https://retrorgb.com/mega-man-ii-full-snes-16-bit-conversion-announced.html

[amber willow]

Probably MRA, I thought of maybe adding a fileloader to specified slot but I think that would require the multiple files to be in a .nes container, and that would have to contain the prg and chr like normal but also the z80 rom and rp5h01 dump. There's some tool out there that will make those but I'm not sure if any of the sets have the .nes like that currently, so that may lead people to trying to use versions without the extras and cause problems.

Mame only loads a game to one slot.

[steel flume]

This is why I haven't really had much interest in pc10 emulation. Nothing actually replicates the full experience. Not the fault of anyone that has tried..it's just not an easy thing to replicate.

[amber willow]

I'm going to try to make it the best I can with lots of options, but nothing is finalized yet.

[fierce estuary]

options are bad

[rancid bay]

So it would be: Load a single MRA that specifies what to load for all game slots? So every particular set of games would need it's own MRA?
And the other way to do it would be to have a "Load rom" for each slot (of 10)? But the problem is the file format for the roms? Because mame format roms would maybe need an MRA per game or something? Or we make some kind of .nes file to load instead?

Seems awkward no matter what due to the number of slots.

[amber willow]

There's 7 or 8 files that need loaded for "bios" not just one, so it will probably be a mra for each individual game that loads the bios and that game to slot 0. Maybe I'll do an example 10 rom mra that people can edit themselves to customize.

And then I could still have a "load nes" option that loads your pc10 .nes file to whatever slot is selected in the osd. For people who really want games in all 10 slots.

[topaz siren]

Curious, and only you’d know at this time, but do the NES files in the HTGDB that are in the PC-10 folder have the instructional data that appears on the second screen? I always thought those particular roms were converted somehow.

[fierce estuary]

there is a proper way to make .nes files of pc10

I dont really trust HTGDB to have proper roms of them though, especially not nes stuff

[amber willow]

You could check, if the pc10 version of the .nes is the same size as the normal .nes file for that game it doesn't have the extras(it should be around 8kb bigger). Let me know if you find a set that is different sizes

[topaz siren]

The PC-10 version of smb3 is 8kb larger than the retail

@amber willow so I suppose that means that most folks who have that set already have the roms in .nes format that they can use. Right now, running them in the NES core has all sorts of dire conclusions (poor Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out!!)

[fierce estuary]

I thought most of them worked if you just loaded the right palettes

[amber willow]

sounds promising, I'll take a look.

PO needed extra battery backed wram. someone was talking about adding that to the mapper since there's only 1 mmc2 game

or something like that, it crashes when it tries to enter the initals menu like after you beat glass joe or something. I don't remember

[topaz siren]

It crashes after the conclusion of a fight

The fight could be Glass Joe, Don Flamenco, Piston Honda, Super Macho Man, or Tyson Himself. Same conclusion. Lockup post-fight.

[amber willow]

what if you don't make the top ten like you win slow?

[fierce estuary]

maybe it's trying to write the z80

[amber willow]

I have already played it, I got it working on pc10. it's missing ram

[topaz siren]

Rad! Let me know if you need me to do a playthrough on it to test it. I run that ish on TikTok Live nightly anyway, so it’s 20 minutes out of my night to run it.

[amber willow]

On the pc10 cart there's ram chip that's not on the nes cart. So maybe the nes core mmc2 mapper could check the battery backed flag in the header and if it's set, you'll know it's the pc10 version of the game and enable the ram.

[amber willow]

So it looked like HTGDB set has the PRG, CHR, and instructions, but is missing the 16 byte security key, without that the game doesn't get added to the gamelist. I searched around and found the program (PC10make) that is suppose to add the keys and tried to run it on the HTGDB roms and it didn't like them for some reason, I tried a set from 2021. And looking at the code it may add the key in an inverted way compared to mame so I may just end up making my own script to make the .nes files. (if I even have the fileloader 🙂 )

[topaz siren]

So, that would mean having the MAME set of pc10 could be converted to .nes

[amber willow]

I'd have to provide the headers if I wanted them if I converted mame roms to .nes.

[topaz siren]

How tedious is that?

[half pasture]

Is this happening to anyone else?

From this set so headers should be OK?

Ok, reloaded the core and now I can’t reproduce it 🤷‍♂️

[lyric sage]

Is there a list of NES mappers this supports?

Ah it supports mapper 30. Great 😄

[mellow dawn]

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/NES_MiSTer/blob/master/README.md Table at the bottom

[lyric sage]

ah perfect.

[fallen brook]

if you want to save games on mapper 30, run the unstable core. I added flash savings but it is pending a stable release. you can´t save on mapper 30 with stable

[lyric sage]

Mine will be alittle while off yeyt

[zenith mirage]

How massivly unrealistic would a somewhat accurate composite filter be? I just struggle to play NES without that ladder effect on the composite video. It's not possible on the conposite output from MikeS nor the output from the su carrier option without borking every other system so an overlay/filter seems the best option. I've been trying to modify the rgb output but it's not looking right and honestly I dunno how it could without correct ppu behaviour (in terms of the composite output)

[fierce estuary]

pretty unrealistic

it would be an absolutely enormous waste of timing resources on a core that can't really afford it

even if I generated the native composite signals, which isn't bad, there's no way for the framework to output it

so i'd have to encode it as composite then decode it back to rgb with all the junk composite fidelity loss and artifacts, with asychronous clocks

it would be a nightmare

[sand leaf]

the option Kuba added to the Saturn was great. adds just the right amount of blur to restore transparency. not sure how resource intensive (both in personal time & logic gates) it would be to implement

[fierce estuary]

NES doesnt need that

it didn't use composite in any especially meaningful way for effects

[jade zenith]

b-but muh trees in woodman's stage

[cursive sable]

Flickering for transparency?

[fierce estuary]

composite doesnt have anything to do with that, it only impacts horizontal

[dreamy marten]

What is the ladder effect?

[zenith mirage]

I suppose it could go out over user io as a selectable option, but it is a lot of work for all 3 of us that would care

[zenith mirage]

I suppose it's not a great description but the NES composite output has a pretty unique look to it

What's the LE utilisation like on the core? I suppose mappers take up a big chunk

[fierce estuary]

it can't

that's a digital port

and you're not going to build a good video signal out of 7 bits

[fierce estuary]

it's not the LE's, it's the slacks. we have like 300 mappers, it's very taxxing

[zenith mirage]

That's true, I didn't consider that. I suppose the only other option would be replacing Mike's code but again, a lot of work for something no one cares about

[fierce estuary]

I don't know who mike is

I'd suggest you just get a real nes if you absolutely must have the original broken composite

it's very bad

one of the worst composite outputs of any console, out of spec and badly generated, one of nintendo's more budget-forward moments

[livid leaf]

I feel like trying to emulate the original hardware is ideal, but not to a fault. Some stuff, like the shoddy NES composite, can be left behind and you wouldn't miss anything.

There's a reason why nobody wants to emulate RF. Even decades ago RF was always seen as unappealing compared to alternatives.

[lyric sage]

RF on nes is not something you should emulate

also disabling the 9v output is the best thing to do on the console anyway

[dry lynx]

I disagree with both of these takes tbh. There’s nothing wrong with people wanting a completely “accurate” recreation, but it is (of course) completely up to the devs whether or not they want to implement that

I think the best compromise is what MiSTer has already - very clean output, which can be butchered downstream if people really want to

[timber lava]

New test of AccuracyCoin
https://github.com/100thCoin/AccuracyCoin/blob/main/README.md#stale-sprite-shift-registers

[steep yew]

Sorry, Kit can't come to the core right now, she is busy working on Virtual Boy and Jaguar. Please try again later

[timber lava]

NES has also 3d glasses 😅

[fierce estuary]

tests are failing?

this guy needs to stop making stupid tests, these trivial things are irritating and dont impact any real behavior

okay ill fix them in a while

I have a lot cooking

[timber lava]

[zenith mirage]

MikeS. The guy who added the initial composite output to MiSTer. Also I kinda disagree. It's hugely nostalgic and in my opinion breaks up the bland look given the limited pallet. I'm weird it seems and not many feel the same way but hey, was just a question. I'll keep hold of my real nes I guess

[zenith mirage]

It is nice to archive as much as possible anyway IMHO. Kinda seems like MiSTer has done that in spades. The nuances in pallet differences have been a discussion for decades

[fierce estuary]

they are close enough

composite has no palette, your tv does

it's however your tv chooses to interpret the electrically out of spec composite the nes produces

so it's random, and hence why there is endless debate

people are try to define something that is literally undefined behavior

with palettes at least you can ensure that your tv is calibrated to spec and it will get something controllable and consistent

[naive swift]

I just use your palette and call it a day.

[jade zenith]

sony CXA my goat

[echo night]

Would D93 or D65 be more accurate for period correct Japan developed games? 😬

…I will see myself out 😆

[dry lynx]

This plus one of the scanline filters (soft, I think)

[main narwhal]

one of my PVM has a D55 setting 🤣

[ember pier]

the french NES had a composite to RGB scart converter
can't we use the RGB values from a french NES ? 😄

[fierce estuary]

france uses SECAM

I don't really trust any european versions of anything for the nes as being what we would consider canonical

[ember pier]

it's canonical for french kids 😄
but for 8/16bit consoles, we had RGB scarts (either real RGB, or composite=> RGB forthe NES)

And after that, our TV were compatible with PAL, so they stopped doing that :/
We never had SECAM consoles

[echo tree]

plenty of official nes hardware has had rgb on it like those uuuh acrade cabs and whatnot

its just different every time

[ember pier]

according to wikipedia, 1.8 million NES were sold in France, so probably the most common RGB NES hardware

(which does not mean it has the "true" RGB values 😄 just the most common ones)

[vivid roost]

french NES's have RGB scart?

[dreamy marten]

does it count as RGB if it's just adapted from composite?

[vivid roost]

are you sure it isn't just composite on a scart cable?

[dreamy marten]

that's what it sounds like

[vivid roost]

its composite converted to RGB scart inside the cable apparently 😮

[ember pier]

not inside the cable, on the PCB

there was a composite => RGB converter on the PCB, an an AVOut cable on the back of the french NES !

[echo tree]

i see that AVout on the board

real strange, secam doesnt like composite or something?

[ember pier]

secam TV does not work with pal composite

RGB was the only real solution

RGB scart was mandatory in France, it was called "peritel"

[echo tree]

funny solution

[vivid roost]

well that or design a secam native version

it uses a sony chip inside apparently

[ember pier]

nobody cared about secam I think 😄

[vivid roost]

yeah its too small a market probably to bother with , esp considering how hard it'd be for nes

[echo tree]

i guess they already had like rgb circuit designs for the you know playchoice 10 or whatever

[ember pier]

also it allowed nice things like working on Atari ST monitors, or arcade monitors I guess
a secam signal, nobody wants that 😄

it's supposed to be the same layout than SNES avout

[ember pier]

We also had PC engine imported by "sodipeng" at the time, which were RGB PC engine too 😄