With the release of BigPEmu, we now have a fully functional Jaguar emulator. Hopefully this encourages more development on the Jaguar core.
#Atari Jaguar
obsidian edge
quick elm
Seconded
pale quail
does the emulator do jaguar cd?
deep sun
No source, possibly ever. It’s a commerical project (Atari 50) that the author was allowed to release a pc version as well.
At least that’s the story I’ve read
quick elm
It’s digital eclipse so my suspicion would be that source will be released after some moratorium period following whatever Atari deals (unless Atari stipulated not to as part of the contract)
Since the Jaguar netlist is public it wouldn’t have been a contact based on information
quick elm
I just watched the author’s YouTube video in which he mentioned a high risk surgery coming up on Dec 6 😕 I hope it went well
empty latch
Looking for a donated CD drive (or was on last page update)
Someone on the VGHF discord is donating one, so hopefully that’ll get rolling in the near future, his health permitting
obsidian edge
I posted from the future where it was fully functional.
empty latch
It handles all the cart games extremely well, better than the old emulators did
quick elm
I assume we are all waiting on news?
obsidian edge
Yeah, I heard he’s fighting cancer so I hope he pulls through
empty latch
Yeah, his doctors ignored worrying signs for a while so his prognosis is pretty hazy
Would be worth reaching out, if he gets CD up and running, regarding the custom chips in there for a core I imagine
quick elm
Yeah, I heard he’s fighting cancer so I hope he pulls through
His surgery was yesterday - but I think it was serious enough that he may need recovery time before posting an update even if everything went perfectly
rapid onyx
Hopefully things went well, that is some dedication to the Jaguar to be working on an emulator when that ill
Would it be worth adding the Jaguar core to MiSTer GitHub and adding it to unstable nightlies so more people can find it and get any updates made automatically?
quick elm
Hopefully things went well, that is some dedication to the Jaguar to be working ...
It seems to make him happy - watching his video he would talk a bit about taking influence from early 90s emulators and it was all in good spirits despite the situation
pale quail
No source, possibly ever. It’s a commerical project (Atari 50) that the author w...
that's not useful at all then
coral cypress
Might still be helpful if he's available to answer questions from someone who is willing to work on the core, Jotego mentioned a possible interest in it at one point iirc. Supposedly this guy did it by himself in only 3 months using only publicly available documentation and a regular Jaguar unit, pretty impressive if so.
undone zealot
It's Jaguar core still on development? The current core looks promising
coral cypress
It's Jaguar core still on development? The current core looks promising
Hasn't been updated in many months.
graceful creek
Wish this core was still in development... Prices here for a Jaguar (with CD-Unit) go over 3000 euro's now... 😦 https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/spelcomputers-en-games/spelcomputers-atari/m1919290875-atari-jaguar-console-atari-jaguar-cd-35-games
obsidian edge
Wish this core was still in development... Prices here for a Jaguar (with CD-Uni...
That’s a blessing in disguise, you should not be spending any money on a Jaguar
empty latch
Might still be helpful if he's available to answer questions from someone who is...
yeah I imagine Rich would be more than willing to answer questions, he's just not comfortable with throwing his source out there
empty latch
That’s a blessing in disguise, you should not be spending any money on a Jaguar
Ultra Vortek is good, though
rapid onyx
Are there any devs interested in working on the core? Beyond Rysha's work, I've never seen anyone even mention they would like to try get it working well.
sharp holly
There used to be a dev for it a few years back but I have not seen anything from them in over a year.
rapid onyx
Ash? He is off doing various other things
sharp holly
Yeah. That's cool.
undone zealot
Jotego said that he wants to work on it, but with all the arcades and the analogue pocket... Even the neo geo pocket isn't published yet
deep sun
i dont even think the NGPC was started?
rapid onyx
He started over a year ago on NGPC and has had to hire someone to try finish it. Anyone holding out for him to do a Jaguar core can look forward to playing that in the old folk's home
empty latch
yeah, Jotego put out an update some months ago noting that his day job has gotten much busier so he doesn't have time to do much FPGA work at the moment - hence hiring staff
sharp holly
I'd rather see NGPC. Jaguar for me would be to play bad games with my friends. Like fight for life.
rapid onyx
I'm not sure what exclusives are actually on NGPC
sharp holly
It has exclusive versions of lots of stuff. Metal Slug 1 and 2 are unique. True exclusives like Dark Arms, Biomotor Unitron, Faselei, Dive Alert. Then you have all the fighters which take a unique perspective on their parent games like KoF or Last Blade. SNK vs. Capcom Match of the Millennium was first before the arcade/console versions.
Sonic is not bad though it's kind of a port.
obsidian edge
Ultra Vortek is good, though
Yeah I’m being harsh. I’ve had fun going through games with BigPEmu. Also people should be happy to collect whatever they want. Who cares what I or others have to say.
tropic birch
is there a single ram core available.
I kinda don't want to order at the moment.
Plan ordering a bunch of mister stuff next year. Hopefully better.
Really looking for RGB with duel ram. I shouldn't worry to much as I don't own a CRT anymore anyways.
rapid onyx
You need dual ram for the WIP Jaguar core, and it does have quite serious stability issues even with dual ram
You do only need 32mb in the second slot though for this and Saturn, so you don't need the more expensive 128mb
quick elm
I talked to Rich - the surgery went well and he hopes to head home tomorrow
obsidian edge
I talked to Rich - the surgery went well and he hopes to head home tomorrow
That’s wonderful. Thanks for reaching out to him!
rapid onyx
That's great news
heavy gate
Hell yeah! Maybe some books about fpga development would aid in a speedy recovery !
quick elm
“Hey here’s some great videos by Alan to keep you company”
hasty pulsar
I really look forward to hearing what he has to say about possibly providing information to assist in the development of a MiSTer core.
coral cypress
We'll need someone to do the asking first! 🙂
hasty pulsar
I can do the asking if I know which questions to ask
coral cypress
Rich has his own Discord now.
https://discord.gg/mahu8qUVQZ
I don't think anyone other than the core implementer(s) knows what the questions will be.
coral cypress
Sounds like he's got a couple of people offering him JagCDs so might be able to get onto that soon.
rapid onyx
Fingers crossed, would be great if he manages to emulate Jag CD and share his findings
quick elm
Sounds like he has his hands full with Jag CD right now but will probably get a mister a little bit later
rapid onyx
Oh, he is actually interested in working on the core?!
Guess those Alan videos you sent did the trick
quick elm
Haha I didn’t get that far yet - we’ll see to what extent he wants to help but if he checks it out at all it’ll be cool
coral cypress
JoTego has started work on his Jag core. It's happening.
https://github.com/jotego/jtjaguar/issues
obsidian edge
What the heck, get out of here. This sounds like a good thing, right?
quick elm
Heh
rapid onyx
Oh FFS
quick elm
I’m sorry but it’s just so predictable
rapid onyx
He hasn't even been able to get NGPC out the door despite working on it for over a year and hiring someone to also work on it
obsidian edge
Ohhhh ok
rapid onyx
He should stick to arcades, especially when people have sent him boards
quick elm
He announces things to prevent others from working on them
obsidian edge
It’ll bring in more Patreon subscribers I assume.
quick elm
If that isn’t painfully obvious
rapid onyx
Just add the current core into Main
obsidian edge
Ok dumb question time, what’s preventing someone else from doing it? Some kinda programmer chivalry?
rapid onyx
Seriously, just do it someone, it works OK
quick elm
I can’t really explain this without using a metaphor involving walking your dog
obsidian edge
I’m game!
obsidian edge
Seriously, just do it someone, it works OK
Two ram sticks is mandatory though, right?
rapid onyx
Yeah
obsidian edge
I mean, I guess I’m willing to buy another ram stick to play Atari Karts?
Hmmmm, I’ll need to reflect on the wisdom of that endeavor.
quick elm
Just wait for to Jotego core
rapid onyx
How much is a 32mb ram stick these days and how many pints will that get to at your local?
Probably like 3-4 drinks
obsidian edge
oh shit, here I was thinking I needed another 128mb lol
rapid onyx
Nah
A second ram stick is a really low barrier to entry these days, as long as you don't have an analogue io
Has Robert ever expressed any interest in Jaguar?
coral cypress
Can have a 128 and a 32. Currently the only core that you outright can't use with a single stick currently afaik.
fair torrent
Ha yeah I quit his patreon some months back, with the Analogue Pocket time waste and NGPC and just constantly teasing a million projects I got too annoyed by the lack of focus and the obvious territory claim staking. Maybe if he gets back to an arcade I care about I’ll rejoin but it’s been a while and I haven’t felt like I’ve been missing out on anything
hasty pulsar
jtjaguar? it's not even worth mentioning
coral cypress
Still, is anyone else doing anything with it? The current core is good for the things it works with, but has a lot of problems.
celest kite
Yay Atari jaguar!
rapid onyx
FYI, from Rick's Discord:
RichWhitehouse — Today at 21:38
I'll be lazy and copy-paste what I said to sentient6 on that front yesterday:
I’ve considered getting into FPGA development. I wouldn’t rule it out, I value that work a lot, especially from a historical/preservation perspective. It does appeal to me less as a programmer, though, as it’s a lot more methodical and less creative. The graphics programmer in me really enjoys the “creative approximation” aspect of software emulation, as well as the freedom to put it on a wide variety of hardware/platforms and make enhancements that aren’t especially constrained by the target hardware. But, assuming I live long enough (ha ha), I’m sure I’ll end up messing around in FPGA land eventually.
But yeah, it'd likely be a significant amount of work for me to ramp up there and relate all of my hardware findings to the mister core. My understanding is that the mister core is also based on the original netlists, but my understanding is also that the netlists are based on non-final hardware and that significant revisions were made after that particular snapshot. So if that's the case, there's probably a lot of tedious combing to be done to get it at parity. But maybe there was some newer or fixed up base I never heard about.
Ugh, just ugh.
quick elm
Please don’t bother Rich too much - we know he has Jag CD to do for now and we know he wouldn’t be helping with the MiSTer core much until he is able to get one and take a look both at the cores in general and what’s there for Jaguar. Personally, I feel someone who has so much passion for development and the platform will probably take an interest - but let’s not make it something he dreads hearing about.
cedar citrus
I had a strange dream that Kitrinx resumed work on the core and got it into main 🙂
The only remaining system that i'm actually interested in, well that and virtual boy
rapid onyx
I haven't posted in his Discord, he was just responding to someone else mentioning that mentioned he would like to play Jag on MiSTer one day
quick elm
It could be in main now if Kitrinx got into a mood
rapid onyx
Personally I think it would be great if it was added in like Saturn and added to unstable nightlies, so a new build was run off when updated
Happy to offer my testing services if things need rechecked
quick elm
Is there any game that runs for a long time without crashing?
rapid onyx
I will dig out that sheet I made before, probably a good place to post it
obsidian edge
@pale quail why do you torture us so with no Jaguar in Main 😭
Imagine all the joy you’d bring in helping the masses enjoy Kasumi Ninja
rapid onyx
quick elm
If even one game is stable it could be justified 🙂
pale quail
what is you want? the broken core just added to the repo?
rapid onyx
Yep
quick elm
what is you want? the broken core just added to the repo?
I mean yes but we are trying to word it better
obsidian edge
Oh look Kasumi Ninja is playable lol
Majority is playable, that’s very promising
@rapid onyx you put that doc together?
obsidian edge
Damn dude you’re awesome
clear arrow
Please don’t bother Rich too much - we know he has Jag CD to do for now and we k...
That, along with his health challenges lately. I've not read how his recent surgery went but he's obviously still recovering. Maybe at best, he can liaise with someone who develops cores like FPGAzumpass (ie creates software emulator then kinda transposes it to FPGA, if I've got that right)
quick elm
He said he was doing well but had a sore throat
I had suggested he take a look at the PSX core because he expressed interest in the more creative features that go beyond original hardware
clear arrow
Glad to hear that he's doing well. Has he mentioned publicly the surgery he went through? I wouldn't be comfortable talking about it if he hasn't.
quick elm
He mentioned he was having a surgery on his video and didn’t go into detail
Let’s just leave it at wishing him well and being patient
clear arrow
Agreed.
rapid onyx
Shift attention to possibility of Rysha's core being added into Main 🙂
obsidian edge
I may a actually get a 32mb stick of ram. LegacyPixels has one for $20.
rapid onyx
Means you can play a much more stable Saturn core as well
I take it you don't have an Analogue iO board? Tubemen aren't able to pack akimbo RAM
obsidian edge
@rapid onyx you sure all I need is 32mb? Would getting a second stick of 128mb benefit me in any capacity?
rapid onyx
I have dual 128mb but, right now for the three cores that can use/need dual RAM (PSX, Jaguar, Saturn) they just need 32mb in the second slot, and very likely no core will need 128mb in the second slot
No harm in having a second 128mb but you likely will never need it
obsidian edge
I have dual 128mb but, right now for the three cores that can use/need dual RAM ...
Alright thank you!
rapid onyx
It is one of these things where 32mb sticks are so cheap, especially considering how much people have put into a MiSTer already, I don't know why most people playing with the Saturn core don't spend 20 dollars or pounds and just grab a second stick of RAM
obsidian edge
Haha that’s a really good point.
pale quail
they probably have their misters all tidy in a case with an analog io board
rapid onyx
Those Tubemen...
Do you think there would ever be a system that could need more than 32mb in the second ram slot? I am just assuming 32mb would always be fine
pale quail
in terms of space I doubt it
the only reason you'd need that is if you were doing some kind of fast coordinated paging of the two chips
I cant think of any system mister can handle that might need that, maybe some type of arcade
rapid onyx
Cool, that makes getting a second stick of RAM a much lower barrier to entry for people if it is highly unlikely you would ever need more than 32mb for anything
fair torrent
Those Tubemen...
Yes, did you need something? I had to stop staring at my tube that my mister in its tidy case is hooked up to to answer this 😉
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE RAM. REPENT!
coral cypress
Misteraddons was\is working on an analog board that allowed 2 sticks of RAM but apparently removes the ability to use the HDMI output, but I may have misinterpreted what he said with regards to the HDMI part.
fair torrent
Misteraddons was\is working on an analog board that allowed 2 sticks of RAM but ...
It just builds in the direct video bit (a DAC), so no pure analog, no dual output. But if you were going the direct video route it would be a lot nicer than an external dac especially since the quality of those is wildly variable
coral cypress
Oh, that makes sense. I've ended up with a HDMI\VGA dongle that is super reliable and it was a $5 one from AliExpress which works better than my more expensive branded ones (faster sync, better res support) 😦 - I do like the dual output, everything is a compromise unfortunately.
Actually - is that the adapter board he already lists on his webpage? I had the impression it was still being developed.
obsidian edge
@pale quail @rapid onyx I spent $25 (with shipping) to get another ram stick. I can't wait to play this Jaguar core.
rapid onyx
Nice one!
fair torrent
<@202844048229138433> <@543799238555992074> I spent $25 (with shipping) to get a...
Sinner
rapid onyx
Quick, someone get the big stick! A wandering Tubeman has ventured into camp!
Be on your way Tubeman, there are no cathode rays for you here!
nimble scaffold
Jaguar is cool. But 3DO and CDI too. Dont understand why jotego isnt focused on arcades. There are so many good games missing.
pale quail
CDI is not cool
3do I suppose is a bit subjective, but it would take a real imagination to somehow envision CDI as being "cool"
heavy gate
Yep saying cd-I has any redeeming qualities is a bit of a stretch …
pale quail
quick elm
CDi’s value was as a movie player
and that value was primarily in the brief window that CDs were easy to burn but before DVD or any better encoder became available
pale quail
btw I put the jaguar code in the repo
quick elm
but no release build?
pale quail
no, no release
I don't think it's in a situation where it is ready for the hands of unsuspecting users yet
quick elm
If some games are playable without issues to me it would just be good to list them on the page and have the release
pale quail
which games are playable without issues
quick elm
More eyes and more likelihood of someone taking an interest
pale quail
tempest 2k almost works but crashes if you pause it
quick elm
@rapid onyx do you have a list?
quick elm
tempest 2k almost works but crashes if you pause it
Does it crash eventually if you don’t?
pale quail
the timing violations are so bad though you have to build it many, many times to get a working build
pale quail
Does it crash eventually if you don’t?
not in the build that's been circulating for some time
rapid onyx
That was from the build from awhile back
I was able to play a decent amount without issues, although I didn't play each for too long so there could be stability issues I missed
If we could get it added to unstable nightlies like Saturn that would be amazing
obsidian edge
I think unstable makes sense
obsidian edge
btw I put the jaguar code in the repo
Thank you!
rapid onyx
If you have your ram on the way may as well get our folder of roms set up in advance, you will need a boot.rom in there as well if I recall
obsidian edge
If you have your ram on the way may as well get our folder of roms set up in adv...
I did, haha. Also for the NGPC core, I’m very excited for that one.
Although I’ll need to make changes based on your spreadsheet. Again thanks for doing that!
rapid onyx
That's no worries, I like doing these sort of things and all the better if people find them useful
cedar citrus
um, maybe i'm stupid but I cant find the code in the repo
quick elm
rapid onyx
hah!
empty latch
Yep saying cd-I has any redeeming qualities is a bit of a stretch …
Cdi has some cool stuff
The hardware is not suited to games, I’ll grant
heavy gate
Yeah the flowers of Robert maplethorpe really does it for me@
empty latch
But there’s probably a dozen or so CDi games I would consider pretty good or at least interesting. And lots of other stuff that’s just weird
Like cosmetic dentistry conference interactive discs
heavy gate
Honestly I would take a trip through the cd-I library given the chance
I’m sure there are some ok tittles
quick elm
Have you tried a software emulator?
empty latch
I think Zenith and Plunderball are legit good
Voyeur is a cool take on an fmv game, the first two Zelda games are pretty solid aside from the cutscenes and CDi ass hitboxes
Mutant Rampage Bodyslam has some very weird ideas for a brawler, like enemies being able to pick up items - including 1ups
pale quail
Like cosmetic dentistry conference interactive discs
this is what you consider interesting? I'll start picking up medication pamphlets at the doctors office for you
empty latch
Definitely in a weird way
heavy gate
Have you tried a software emulator?
Not worth it unless it’s an fpga based emulator ..
quick elm
You almost had it
just truncate after “Not worth it”
If the games were games you actually wanted to play you would be trying to see how good existing options were for playing them
heavy gate
Spot on
nimble helm
for devs i understand that mentality. people actually doing the work to preserve games, but if you're just a collector and wants that check box to have a check box, i think it's silly. i'm absolutely guilty of that on occasion, i get myself hyped up due to fomo. but lately i've found a lot of crappy games, i'd rather just watch on youtube than try to cludge through myself.
pale quail
honestly for useless but interesting things, software is the way to go
on an fpga useless things take resources even when not used
on software it's "free" during execution, just the trouble of coding it (which is a lot less than fpga)
rapid onyx
Let me check
pale quail
I dont think so because this one you have to set the CPU to "turbo"
rapid onyx
I think this one, that I copied over on the 19/02/2022
Just played a race of Atari Karts in the new build 🙂
What is new in this one over the previous one do you remember?
rapid onyx
Hah, fair enough
Any idea what causes some lines to be off in a lot of the games? It's as if they are rendered in the wrong place, a few lines in the middle of the screen in some games
You can see it there, it isn't there all the time. It crops up in a number of games though
obsidian edge
Which build should I grab? @rapid onyx
pale quail
Hah, fair enough
this is caused by the graphics processor being starved
it can't get the data fast enough
the most obvious example of it is double dragon v
the graphics processor also stalls a lot
like, it locks up or crashes or something
you can see this happen when you pause the game tempest 2000
@nova yoke could probably explain it better
quick elm
But Jotego is gonna get it there faster and on single ram 🤔
obsidian edge
Joteguar 🤔
pale quail
it's probably not a ram or rom issue
but rather a bus grant issue
it's not too clear
in the release that I shared above at least the cycle metrics of each of the three processors are very close to real hardware, but it still struggles in some scenarios to get the graphics data
obsidian edge
So you’re saying we’re close?
rapid onyx
Hmm, would srg320 or Robert run into similar issues with their cores? I am sure I have seen those lines on earlier versions of some of the big recent cores before
pale quail
robert wouldn't end up in that situation
in fact nobody would
the reason it's like this is because a computer made the code
it's entirely opaque
nobody knows how the sausage gets made
it adds the step of trying to understand why the netlist is how it is, and if the translation of it is right, and then, how it should ultimately be behaving and how it's deviating from that
the fact that it runs as well as it does is sort of amazing
someone who cared a lot would take the time to understand the purpose of each module and translate them to more abstract code that the fpga could handle rather than being this single-wire nightmare
rapid onyx
Oh, I didn't realise this was computer generated, or is that how netlists work?
pale quail
the netlists were probably generated from a computer program back in the 90's, then edited further by humans
but they are just the raw base level map of how the silicon of these chips works
at a later date someone got the rights to them and decided to write some java that translates the netlists into verilog
so the chips are just generated directly from the original design of the chip
however, fpga's and silicon don't work the same, and that's you are seeing here
(*****************************************************************
jerry.net
This is the top level hdl description of the Jerry DSP chip.
******************************************************************)
IMPORT jmem, (* memory controller *)
jbus, (* main data paths *)
dsp, (* processor *)
jclk, (* clock generator *)
jiodec, (* local address decode *)
i2s, (* i2s *)
uart2, (* comlynx & midi uart *)
dac, (* audio dacs *)
jmisc, (* timers & interrupts *)
lego,
tosh; (* Toshiba gate & pad definitions *)
DEF JERRY (
(****************** INPUTS ***********************)
xdspcsl, (* chip select *)
xpclkosc, (* processor clock oscilator input for squaring and
dividing for frequency synthesis purposes *)
xpclkin, (* processor clock input *)
xdbgl, (* DSP bus grant *)
xoel[0], (* memory output enable *)
xwel[0], (* memory write strobe *)
xserin, (* comlynx/midi receive data *)
xdtackl, (* data transfer acknowledge *)
xi2srxd, (* I2S input data *)
xeint[0..1], (* DSP interrupt inputs (DMA requests) *)
/*
xpadin[0..3], (* paddle inputs *)
*/
xtest,
xchrin, (* chroma oscilator input *)
xresetil:IN; (* clean reset input *)
(*********************** BIDIRECTIONAL SIGNALS ***************)
xd[0..31], (* 32 bit data bus *)
xa[0..23] (* 23 bit address bus *)
xjoy[0..3], (* joystick enables *)
xgpiol[0..3], (* general purpose IO decodes *)
xsck, (* serial clock *)
xws, (* serial word select *)
xvclk (* vclk *)
:TRI;
(*************************** OUTPUTS ***************************)
xsiz[0..1], (* indicates the number of bytes to be
transfered in the current memory cycle
when enabled as an output
1 -> byte
2 -> word
3 -> long *)
they look kinda like that
you can shed a tear at those commented out paddle inputs
how close the jaguar was
rapid onyx
Oh, that might explain the talk about adding in paddle support in the Rich's emulator and shonky looking controller images I saw posted
rapid onyx
torn widget
quick elm
@pale quail If a core developer decided to take on Jaguar in earnest, what would be the proper course of action with regard to the netlists themselves and the computer assisted core we have now?
I feel maybe its existence creates a catch 22
pale quail
if someone wants to they can just message me and I can give them access to the repo
not that they can't work on a fork if they want anyway
github is designed to collaborate
quick elm
I meant more like what’s the proper approach
pale quail
sending a message, or even a github issue
quick elm
Sorry you’re not getting my question
pale quail
I guess not
quick elm
I didn’t mean about access and politics or whatever I meant about development
Do you really just sit down and grin and bear it until you can organize the core that’s there until you can refactor it into something you can stand to look at
Do you throw it out and start fresh with the netlists
pale quail
there's not really an answer to that
quick elm
Or do you ignore the netlists at first abs build a functional prototype first
pale quail
someone has to develop an approach
quick elm
What I meant by catch 22 is like… if you decide to do something other than use the netlists core you’re kinda endeavoring to make something less accurate
So there’s a huge barrier for someone to want to step into that
pale quail
yes?
if you aren't using the netlists at least as a guide you're working mostly blind
every open emulator has extremely poor accuracy
they are all provided though
quick elm
Yeah the BigP software emulator wasn’t made referencing the netlists at all - he used the manual and then created a bunch of tests
pale quail
you'll be able to ballpark it that way but there's a lot of weird behavior
quick elm
Yeah I just wonder if you would be in quicksand if you started that way and then tried to go back to the netlists after
obsidian edge
So what’s the difference between the Jaguar and the tons of other console cores? Weird architecture, bad hardware documentation, bad emulator options, or all of the above?
quick elm
Unique to the Jaguar is its bandwidth needs relative to similar power and era. But what’s unique about the situation is that the netlists (the original hardware design) is available and that it has already been synthesized algorithmically and crudely.
Because FPGA solutions allow for affordable cycle accurate emulation, most people would consider it a huge waste if you had the resource of the netlists available but proceeded as though you didn’t. It’s the kind of reference you only dream of having more typically.
But the code that’s there isn’t really in a good shape to work on actively and improve and add features because it was machine made and not made to be human readable or organized in a way that you would want to reference.
And if you ignored the existing code and started from scratch with the netlists (what Jotego proposes to do), most people would consider that work tedious translation/transcribing work that doesn’t really lend itself to creativity and intellectual stimulation.
Too long winded or did you get it?
rapid onyx
Rich did state that he thought the netlists were not from the final release version of the console, but an early WIP version, so there are likely issues in there that mean it behaves differently from release console
quick elm
Sure but that doesn’t really change the dilemma.
rapid onyx
I was thinking probably the same as you: could someone take the current core and beaver away at it and get to the point where it was a stable accurate release, or would it make more sense for someone to start again from scratch as the current core is a OK but a bit of a trap that would be incredibly difficult to get to that point of being a solid representation of a Jaguar?
quick elm
Personally I’ve known people who were especially gifted at refactoring—but they were software developers, not people who were well versed in HDL. If you found someone with that personality type who was also skilled in HDL… and had a genuine interest in emulating the Jaguar, then you would have a good candidate for progressing the existing core.
Or I think even if you were two of those things but driven enough to learn HDL then maybe, but it is a pretty challenging first project even for someone pretty sharp I think.
rapid onyx
I suppose another way to phrase the question would be, how would one of the Devs who have done a 5th gen console approach doing a Jaguar core if they decided to take it on? Would they take the current core and develop it, or would they start from scratch?
obsidian edge
Maybe reach out to this guy? https://github.com/Torlus/JagNetlists
quick elm
I suppose another way to phrase the question would be, how would one of the Devs...
They simply wouldn’t.
quick elm
Maybe reach out to this guy? https://github.com/Torlus/JagNetlists
What do you mean? This is the author.
obsidian edge
What do you mean? This is the author.
Could he offer any assistance here?
quick elm
He rolled off of it some time ago and knew more about it than anyone then so I feel his intentions were clear
obsidian edge
Oh ok
rapid onyx
I am kind of surprised nobody else has expressed interest in working on the core, it has been around for ages as well
quick elm
Even after what I just said about why? 🙂
obsidian edge
@proud grove do you like the Jaguar
rapid onyx
Rysha has improved upon it, and we have seen lots of Devs working on all sorts of different more obscure cores, but nobody else has expressed any interest in having a crack at improving it more
proud grove
I have barely played anything on it. I'm saving myself for the core being more mature one day
obsidian edge
What if you were the one to bring it to maturity
proud grove
Hah, it's very complex. I could probably help with simplifying the code
Then it might be easier for others to work with it
Currently it's super structural and verbose
rapid onyx
Maybe that is what it needs? Multiple Devs having a go at making the core better rather than hoping for a champion to emerge and make it all good
pale quail
Yeah I just wonder if you would be in quicksand if you started that way and then...
yeah probably
heavy gate
static oasis
Well, you beat me to it.
static oasis
What's a netlist?
obsidian edge
https://youtu.be/9ZaYlVGxTZ4
This was a fun watch. Made me curious to know what the real potential of the Jaguar was or what’s considered the most graphically impressive game/homebrew.
pale quail
like most things made by atari it could have been good but it was hamstrung by cost cutting and bad engineering
they tried to shoehorn it into being overly versatile for arcade machines but it left the actual system in a state that was difficult to work with
hasty pulsar
I think AVP is the only game I would actually be interested in playing. After having just watched this video, I'm kinda happy for sega, they did a lot better.
their failure consoles had plenty of great games
quick elm
32X is tied with Jaguar at best
and this should define the bottom rung of any console collection
hasty pulsar
Yeah, and they survived long enough to churn out the Saturn and the Dreamcast, both having some real gems on it. After the 32X disaster
Personally I'd rather have 32X than Jag
Then again, Jag had a decent Doom port, you just needed to provide your own soundtrack
strange pine
difficult decision...
The loss of VRdeluxe and Kolibri vs. an unknown quantity (for me)
quick elm
To me it’s about the same number of good, playable, and worthless games on each platform
I would still rank them both below Sega CD, Intellivision, etc. but above VB, CDi, and the console that shall not be named
nova yoke
Then again, Jag had a decent Doom port, you just needed to provide your own soun...
I do wonder why people spend so much time making cores for things they repeatedly say they hate. Was the store all out of self flagellation starter kits?
quick elm
To me it’s relative to a point
hasty pulsar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNVJrmDN1k8&ab_channel=REBOOT-Pushthebutton%21
not bad
preservation is a good cause
quick elm
And that point is when there’s just nothing you actually want to play—and for me a few things are in that category
hasty pulsar
apparently there's a homebrew scene, but I've yet to look into it
quick elm
Most of the homebrew on Jaguar is commercially gatekept even years after creation - just no opportunity to try stuff without paying the toll
quick elm
I don’t know what the income is like on an old commercially sold Jaguar game but surely there should be a roadmap that includes public free releases at some point
nova yoke
and not the licensed games, because licenses
by that logic, please send me a free 1970s Alfa Romeo Spider
quick elm
You wouldn’t download a car
quick elm
I don’t mean to say that I represent the whole market or anything and I’ve admitted to not knowing what the income is like…. But personally there’s just a sea of homebrew stuff out there and after a decade or whatever an author doesn’t want their stuff preserved and a wider audience to experience it I just kinda write it off as a loss like all the server dependent games that get lost
nova yoke
well, all my stuff has a demo version or a free download of the entire game - the only ones that aren't are the licensed ones, which..... ain't gonna happen.
some of the stuff being sold by other people is so bad a demo would kill sales. so...
quick elm
Yeah that’s also been a suspicion
In a perfect world everyone’s roadmap would include a free public release, a public domain date, and an open source date
nova yoke
its not that simple. its my game. the box art and manual design is done by AtariAge. The music is licensed for use with limitations, etc, etc, etc
everyone would have to agree
quick elm
Yeah I get that but to me that has to be planned
nova yoke
but why?
art doesn't lose its value after 10 years because anyone who might look at it already has
quick elm
You’re asking why I care about preservation?
nova yoke
not everyone is an open source hippy. I'm glad that some are, and some of my stuff is, but its not for everything and not for everyone.
the argument that everything should be free after X years is.... just insanity
quick elm
It has been quite some time since I’ve been called a hippy and I must say it’s probably preferable to the other things I get called
nova yoke
hehe
quick elm
How much should people pay to look at Rembrandt today?
nova yoke
you can look at all the Jaguar homebrew. on youtube
if you want to own that rembrandt, thats not the same thing
quick elm
You mean own the original IP or what?
Because I’m free to copy, print, distribute, and do anything I want with my copy of any Rembrandt
nova yoke
yes, because he's not alive to sue you
quick elm
No, that’s not why
nova yoke
or you can bet your dead painters bones he would
quick elm
Paintings get 95 years
nova yoke
anyway, there's no answer to whatever question this discussion is trying to ask, which I doubt it even knows itself at this point
quick elm
Which I would argue is too much and maybe you would say is not long enough
nova yoke
I'm 100% for "public domain after everyone who is in any way associated with whatever it is has passed"
I don't think it should be a time limit
quick elm
Do your games have that stipulated somewhere?
nova yoke
as much as I utterly hate Disney Corp, why should they let others have The Mouse after 95 years?
nova yoke
no, and I've never seen one anywhere.
quick elm
Mickey enters the public domain in 2024
nova yoke
if you wanna draw a monochrome mouse that looks like that, go ahead, but you try colouring it and wait for Disney to come calling
quick elm
Mickey is still mostly black and white
I bet if I made him green in 2024 I could sell that all I want
nova yoke
also the copyright expires... the trademark doesn't
nova yoke
aww but the Disney Vault keeps everythign safely preserved 😛
quick elm
I’m not interested in perpetuating dishonesty or fraud, I’m interested in keeping art that I care about relevant and accessible
nova yoke
you were literally talking about how bad you thought the system was above.... doesn't sound like caring 😛
anyway, I have better things to do, like work on more games for this god awful system that everyone thinks is a pile of crap
quick elm
Everything dies—the chips, the platforms, the consoles, the optical mechanisms earliest of all as it turns out—but eventually things die even in the minds of the people. Things lose relevancy if they aren’t maintained, updated, and allowed to flourish
quick elm
you were literally talking about how bad you thought the system was above.... ...
No I was one of the people saying I like the Jaguar
nova yoke
well then I take that back
quick elm
If someone writes a core for a system I don’t like I’m not going to have a problem with them though - someone else even likes Lynx 🙂
nova yoke
I guess so, I mean I have the gameboy core installed so.
quick elm
I like the Gameboy
nova yoke
and a get the hoops on the poles in this plastic shell full of water is more fun than that 😛
quick elm
I know that game and it is better than some but not most GB games 🙂
Maybe the first Castlevania before people fixed it
nova yoke
and I'd rather play with an etch a sketch than a BBC model B
quick elm
Yeah I didn’t touch the bbc not even sure what I’m missing
nova yoke
you are missing the 2nd best version of elite
quick elm
Oh really? I played that on Apple //e when it was current
nova yoke
imho, the spectrum version is the best
quick elm
How can that be 🙂
nova yoke
its the same game, but faster
thats what we're currently working on, btw
if anyone is interested
static oasis
preservation is a good cause
That's one of the main reasons, but I came up with three more that, to me at least, make sense.
Like for example, maybe if an Atari Jaguar core or 3DO Media Interactive core (or a Philips CD-I core, if one chooses to open that can of worms) gets created on Mister FPGA, it'll probably have a chance to run a bit better than their original counterparts.
That's one.
Two: Retro devs can use the Mister to develop whatever homebrew or demoscene demo they want.
Three: Considering this is free and open source, people can use the Mister as a huge ass reference sheet for developing more emulators or other types of similar software.
That's the way I look at it.
static oasis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netlist
Thank you.
obsidian edge
I appreciate and admire your optimistic perspective but sadly those two latter points will not happen.
Software emulators are free, much easier and more efficient to use for developing homebrew. The improvements that a well-written MiSTer core offers isn’t necessary for game development. If anything, a MiSTer core would be completely ignored as an emulator is easier to work with and a real accuracy test is against actual hardware.
While MiSTer cores are “free” and open source, it’s written in programming languages completely foreign to traditional software development so it really has no practical use outside of potentially improving other MiSTer cores.
The MiSTer is an extreme niche within a niche. It won’t move the needle for ancient and obscure gaming hardware in any capacity.
People don’t care about those devices because of the device itself, not because of lack of access.
static oasis
I understand now.
obsidian edge
To be completely blunt I like your perspective more.
pale quail
atariage is kind of horrible
@quick elm they push for all the commercialization stuff you seem to hate with that, and make trash hardware to do it too
pale quail
The MiSTer is an extreme niche within a niche. It won’t move the needle for anci...
most of what you said is true, but mister does sometimes have new discoveries or implementations that are more accurate than any other
in that sense even someone who can't read the code can use it to figure out the correct behavior of some component, but they'd have to be a fairly talented software dev with some understanding of hardware to do so
obsidian edge
Oh great! Ok I’m glad for that then.
I’m also sure there’s someone who would rather use a MiSTer for homebrew development as well. For example if I were working on a game remaster now, the MiSTer would be my platform of choice for testing/source of truth.
pale quail
it's an awful system for homebrew development and it always will be
software debuggers that can break and give you a rich UI are just miles ahead of what an fpga can do
mister might be good for testing real hardware compatibility but that's about it
it's a platform designed for playing games in place of real systems
design goals are accuracy, simplicity, and uncompromised gaming experiences
obsidian edge
@pale quail I have a friend who worked on the Crash remakes. They used emulators on PC, this was before DuckStation. I showed him the MiSTer and talked about it. He mentioned it probably would’ve increased productivity and replication accuracy for the project if that was a thing during their development.
I mean that’s not what we’re talking about but I thought I’d share.
He was very impressed, would’ve likely been an official dev cost purchase too lol
pale quail
im not sure how unless he was developing on real hardware instead
maybe psx emulators had very bad debuggers, im not too familiar
obsidian edge
It was just a comparison point
quick elm
<@477476882837667842> they push for all the commercialization stuff you seem to ...
I don’t hate commercial stuff or physical stuff, I just don’t think it should be forever without alternative
obsidian edge
Emulation was easier and more reliable to use than actual hardware
pale quail
I do know that no psx emulators are super faithful to the way the hardware works, not out of laziness but because they can't be due to the amount of processing it would take
@quick elm yeah well they're guilty of that, they make those boards that use the high powered arm chips and other stuff that's hard to emulate, and push people to commercialize as much as possible because they profit from it
quick elm
Stella does emulate it doesn’t it?
pale quail
I think somewhat, but not in a particularly clean way
I think it struggles with some of the bus stuffing and other strange things people do with those
quick elm
I just think we get into a strange world where people are ok to pirate the actual commercial stuff but not the even bad or simple “homebrew” stuff out of respect to the creators without any kind of expiration
And some of it just gets super silly where there’s like 12 physical cartridges and no one else has ever even seen the game
pale quail
I think people are happy to pirate it anyway, they just wont admit they pirate homebrew and will admit they pirate the real games
quick elm
Maybe CJ is right and YouTube really is enough to know they existed historically
obsidian edge
I have no qualms pirating older games. The only people affected, and that’s an extreme stretch, are middle managers and business men who’ve had absolutely nothing to do with the original.
People who make homebrew though aren’t companies and the money goes to the person who actually worked on the product.
quick elm
And, apparently the business mogul Albert
obsidian edge
lol who
quick elm
Atariage
obsidian edge
lol
past delta
Apologies if this question as been asked like 1 million times. Is any of the amazing FPGA Devs looking at the Atari Jaguar core again?
celest kite
Apologies if this question as been asked like 1 million times. Is any of the ama...
Jotego
past delta
Thanks Toya 🙂
obsidian edge
I can’t wait to flex on everyone in #general-banter once I get my second ram stick. Sitting in my ivory FPGA tower looking down on them while I play Jaguar.
obsidian edge
Apologies if this question as been asked like 1 million times. Is any of the ama...
Hopefully @proud grove 👀🙏
sharp holly
So many homebrew games are not good and give a bad name to the scene unfortunately. And the gatekeeping of homebrews is just as bad on Vectrex I believe.
hasty pulsar
That's one of the main reasons, but I came up with three more that, to me at lea...
A chance to run better than it's original counter parts? Sure if it includes optional performance hacks and tweaks, which are not required of any core. For it to be accurate it wouldn't run better at all compared to how a mint condition original would run.
Currently the Saturn core runs most games at a higher framerate than it's supposed to, which is a bug. Better than original is typically why people go towards software emulators. 🤔
Other than that I mostly agree with you
past delta
A chance to run better than it's original counter parts? Sure if it includes opt...
Which games? I see some which I swear run slower than the Original Hardware (but I am not making anything of it due to how early the Saturn Core is).
hasty pulsar
One of the main reasons I originally got a MiSTer was because it was cheaper than shipping my NES to somewhere to get it RGB modded, as well as the mod and labor. So the video output is definitely an improvement
nights into dreams runs faster than I remember, not by much, but the controls feel a little more slippery. virtual hydlide is definitely faster
hasty pulsar
Which games? I see some which I swear run slower than the Original Hardware (but...
But that's what I mean though, if a MiSTer core performs better than the original, that would be a bug
unless it's an experimental core like the PSX2X 😄
obsidian edge
So many homebrew games are not good and give a bad name to the scene unfortunate...
How is there homebrew gatekeeping? I believe you but it sounds so ridiculous lol.
sharp holly
Basically what Sentient was talking about. Restricting to physical releases. Not even allowing you to buy a rom of the game.
obsidian edge
ohhhhhh
sharp holly
Also only certain collectors getting access to games. Similar to when someone buys an unreleased prototype and then wants to feel special by not dumping it.
empty latch
I can think of about 6-7 Jaguar games that are pretty cool and worth checking out. Plus a couple more that got ports to other systems like Rayman
Not counting homebrew
Top 3 for me are probably Tempest 2000, Ultra Vortek and Ruiner Pinball. Heard good about Battlesphere but haven’t sat down with it much
proud grove
Hopefully <@91905323945725952> 👀🙏
I don't have the ability to fix it or do anything to it, it's incredibly complex and above my skill level.
obsidian edge
thank you anyways
coral cypress
Kasumi Ninja
obsidian edge
Kasumi Ninja
gesundheit
obsidian edge
@rapid onyx I can now play Atari Jaguar games! 
rapid onyx
Good stuff!
quick elm
<@543799238555992074> I can now play Atari Jaguar games! <:elmorise:862320827687...
I look forward to your opinions on which are the good ones
obsidian edge
I look forward to your opinions on which are the good ones
All of it
obsidian edge
Fight for Life is amusing in its mediocrity. It’s made by one person, an ex-member of Sega AM2, so that’s kind of cool.
Trevor McFur is offensive in every regard. I find nothing redeeming about it.
empty latch
Ultra Vortek is good but you should put in the turbo speed code. Makes it much better
sharp holly
I HATE Trevor McFur. It's horrendous.
quick elm
It might be in my top ten
sharp holly
Hated?
I played it just the other day to show my friends how bad it is. Then we played Demolition Man on 3DO. Quite the night.
quick elm
yeah top ten worst games ever made
obsidian edge
It’s such an awful game that the Jaguar would have benefitted from not having that game released. I get one more game means more potential for sales but I can definitely see that game turning customers away.
coral cypress
I remember AvP being amazing, then I played it the other day and it's actually a bit shit.
Tempest 2000 is still a blast, but it has better more recent ports.
quick elm
it does?
nimble helm
tempest 3000
4k was a hackjob tho
defender 2000 is fun even though defender is the hardest game known to man
quick elm
Tempest 3000 is not a superior port, it’s just a royalty dodge
Wait 3000 the Nuon game is fine but not a port
3x or whatever is a royalty dodge
2000 exists on Jaguar, Saturn, and Windows
No 4000 is the recent one
4000 is minter but not his best work
Also you might consider space giraffe as a sister game
nimble helm
yeah i realized that after i said it i'm trying to search the one that was crap
quick elm
PSX and PSP I think
nimble helm
I hope Akka Arrh is good
quick elm
I hadn’t heard about it - what’s the story?
nimble helm
a prototype game from the 80s they put in atari 50, but atari has hired on mitner to revamp in his style
obsidian edge
Tempest 3000 supports the neGcon though
clear arrow
You mean X3 😄 BTW For those that didn't know, T2K is available in a pretty decent form via an easter egg in Tempest X3:
"Original Tempest
Get a #1 highscore enter your initials as "H V S" or "YIFF!". Tempest 2000 and Tempest Plus should appear on the main menu as options."
I don't know if T2K as it is in Tempest X3 supports the neGcon though
empty latch
Yeah I don’t consider x3 or 4000 to be the same game as 2000
They changed enough that they aren’t ports or anything
Jag has better visual effects than the Saturn port too
obsidian edge
You mean X3 😄 BTW For those that didn't know, T2K is available in a pretty dece...
Yeah my bad lol
clear arrow
Yeah I don’t consider x3 or 4000 to be the same game as 2000
Even the version of 2000 that's unlockable in X3? It seems pretty close to the Jag version itself, thought it was basically a direct port. I know the X3 mode/version was different, but the unlock was pretty close (save for the score and life indicator looking different, and maybe some visual stuff)