Sega Saturn

[graceful horizon]

wait, I had moments in panzer dragoon saga where the 3d models would pop up rather late, curious if that was also single ram behavior

[floral saddle]

I need to get a new save together which has more items and magic in stock but the intro is so long.

[graceful horizon]

enjoyed that game though

[glossy steppe]

The patcher for it was interesting

Never seen such an intricate patching app

[ripe valley]

That's the problem, that intro.

[floral saddle]

Yep, it's a slog!

I could do it over the weekend and give you the save file if that will be useful?

[ripe valley]

I don't promise to check everything right in the next day after that.

[glossy steppe]

Sounds like many modern games

"Stop interrepting me every 10 steps to tell me the obvious and let me play already!"

[floral saddle]

More for future reference, so the issues can more easily be checked with new builds.

[visual sundial]

Panzer Saga does have quite close draw distance. To my eye it doesn’t look worse than real hardware

[graceful horizon]

zwei gets more impressive the more saturn games i play

[ripe valley]

3D models popping up 'late' is not a sign of an incorrect memory timing, and should be quite normal compared to the real system and real disc.

More like, scrambled textures and/or general slowdowns could be signs.

[drowsy hull]

what is the current unstable core main release relationship? Specific combo needed or does released main contain everything needed right now?

[celest lake]

unstable main has everything

I think stable main does too

it won't have the latest fixes for astral

but it's not missing like save games

[glossy steppe]

You know, now that I think about it, astral seems like such a likely word to use for a videogame title, but AFAIK there isn't a Saturn game with it in the title. There is Astal and Astra but not Astral

[celest lake]

it's definitely one of those that the latest main fixed

[glossy steppe]

I honestly keep forgetting if it's spelled Astal or Astral myself 🤣

And I believe it's Astal that was fixed, the other is a fighting game

[river wing]

I am not exactly sure you actually finished Rayman 1 on PSX as a kid. Really, you don't know how hard that game really is.

[polar mountain]

I am one of the very people who unfortunately cannot have dual ram due to my own laziness and my stubbornly belligerent attitude. Rain down upon me your sympathy now.

[hearty marten]

single ram pleb

Now I just need to get myself a 4k upscaler and I can become a proper retro gaming snob

Just so you guys know - when my dual ram arrives, I intend on becoming ||even more|| insufferable

[drowsy hull]

I need more ram, one of my saturns is 13 frames faster with the grandia intro

[hearty marten]

Unacceptable

Unplayable

[drowsy hull]

that is between two japanese proper hardware saturns

[hearty marten]

Original hardware?

Unacceptable

Unplayable

[drowsy hull]

your dependency on snac disgusts me

[hearty marten]

YouTube tells me that MiSTer is the best way to play every console

Better than your stinky original hardware

[drowsy hull]

it is called smell of life

[hearty marten]

The stinky stench of wretched retro

[polar mountain]

I'll never go dual ram! You hear me!! NEVER!!

Its the goddamn principle!!!

(Disclaimer: I might go dual ram a some stage.)

[scenic snow]

I was kind of hoping MiSTer 1.5 or whatever would come soon enough that it wouldn't be necessary

[wide glacier]

analog video output is too important to me to consider dual SDRAM

(yes, i know about direct video. it's fickle at best)

[wise brook]

get a dac bro

[wide glacier]

it's never worked well for me on any of my tubes

[wise brook]

i cannot wait for a successor platform to put all these edge case issues to bed

Replay2 can’t come soon enough

[wide glacier]

that shit's never coming out lol

[wise brook]

or even a jailbroken analog3d

[wide glacier]

that's not happening either

[wise brook]

i think MikeJ would be quite surprised to hear that

[wide glacier]

hey, i would love to be proven wrong, but it's been in development now for what, 7 years? every progress report is "we're almost done with the PCB"

[wise brook]

sounds like you’d rather be proven right

[wide glacier]

i'm all for more powerful hardware being available. but, it's a moot discussion if it never comes out, and even then, it would need the devs to support it

[hearty marten]

Devs is the big one

[wide glacier]

very true

[hearty marten]

I think it should be pretty good now based on how many people are using it

But I bet one of the scaler bros can correct me

But it’s another cost to add

[wide glacier]

i'll have to give it another shot sometime, perhaps with one of the dedicated I/O boards from misteraddons or retrocastle. though i'm still concerned with overall compatibility; i don't think the X68000 core supports it at all, for example

[warped saddle]

scaler bros not helpful here since they aren't running to crts

and honestly every time I test direct video related stuff I hate it

[hearty marten]

Thanks for correcting. I know nothing about analogue so I defer to the experts here

[sharp forum]

TIL I’m a scaler bro

[hearty marten]

But a single ram pleb too

[celest lake]

I am a scaler daywalker AMA

[glossy steppe]

Hey guys, how do I go quadruple RAM on my mister?🤪

[wide glacier]

pour milk on it

[winter phoenix]

Duct tape

[sharp forum]

Just put four RAMs in it, easy

[next bronze]

Contact The Impossibles (or the Super Globetrotters) and get help from Multi Man

[sturdy kernel]

four sticks of dedotated wam???

[trail ermine]

Magic Knight Rayearth soft-locks when leaving the Tree of Life at Lairy, the next area won’t load.

[celest lake]

can you share a save?

[trail ermine]

Okay, where is the save file on Mister?

[celest lake]

should be in /media/fat/saves/saturn

[trail ermine]

Thanks. Is it boot.sav? I can't see one for Magic Knight Rayearth.

[celest lake]

are your games not in their own folders?

[trail ermine]

Games are as chd

[graceful horizon]

If you are hyping up it's difficulty like that, might as well be a mandela effect tbh

I wasn't any thing special back then ao that's a possibility 🥲

[trail ermine]

The only other Saturn game I'm playing is Power slave and there is sav file for that, but not for Magic Knight Rayearth, just a boot.sav. Does it save there?

Maybe it's because I'm using dram 6m dev as my cartridge. Should I switch to backup?

I don't know what changed, but it's working now!

[glossy steppe]

Are your Saturn game CHDs just all in the "Saturn" folder or is each of them in it's own subfolder within the Saturn folder?

The subfolders are how it knows to create a different save for each game, otherwise it would just create one save for everything

[visual sundial]

Are we sure that’s still the default behaviour? My games are all .chd not in individual folders but it’s creating a separate save for each game/disc. I can even select save from the ‘Mount Backup RAM’ option

[mortal mist]

Are you perhaps confusing internal and external backup? With separate folders for each game, a separate internal backup is created.

[ember terrace]

Realistically though, what does dual ram get you with Saturn? Is it just a couple of the 3D fighters that are faster?

[burnt matrix]

Nights too

I forgot what else

[burnt matrix]

Single core also has the fast timings option

[ember terrace]

The single ram core has the fast timings option? What is that?

[burnt matrix]

It’s a core option you can turn on to mitigate the slower performance on those few games

the reason why it’s not on by default is because it hasn’t been heavily tested

so don’t know if it works for every game in the library

[ember terrace]

Ah, thanks. Having easy dual HDMI and analog video output is something I really love so I don't think I could ever give that up

[burnt matrix]

yeah I wouldn’t worry about it at all

if you’re happy then you’re solid

[hearty marten]

Reassurance that things run as accurately as they can on the MiSTer. Whether this makes a practical difference in games is not something I want to worry about

The main ones are probably those 3D fighters, but then people say “no actually, Nights needs it too… oh, and Sonic R, oh.. and radiant silvergun, oh, and…”

[burnt matrix]

I mean you can also not worry if things run as accurately as possible

[hearty marten]

I don’t want to spend my time second guessing whether or not the game needs fast timings because we haven’t tested every minute of every game

[hearty marten]

Then why the hell would I want a MiSTer?

[ember terrace]

Yes, I mostly concerned if I can feel a problem but if it's just something that's measured in milliseconds it doesn't bother me

[hearty marten]

If I’m happy with slop, I’d just use a pi

[burnt matrix]

you can also not spend your time second guessing if the game needs fast timings or not

[hearty marten]

It’s a measurable difference

People who know the games notice the difference immediately

[ember terrace]

Even the single RAM Saturn core is better than software emulation in my opinion

[hearty marten]

Try Last Bronx, even with fast timings, and see how it feels

[burnt matrix]

and they’ll come here and they’ll report it and if it can be fixed then awesome, if it can’t be fixed then oh well

[burnt matrix]

most definitely

although Ymir is pretty badass

[burnt matrix]

Mah not super interested in that game

See, don’t have to worry about it

[hearty marten]

srg320 believes that what we have at the moment is the best that can be done with single ram. I have no reason to doubt him

[burnt matrix]

Easy

[ember terrace]

For me, really easy analog video output is why I like a misSTer

[hearty marten]

I wasn’t advocating for everyone getting dual ram, or saying single is bad - just giving my personal perspective and why I’m happy to go down that route. It doesn’t mean others wont have different priorities

[ember terrace]

I play 2D 99% of the time on Saturn so I don't think I'll notice

[burnt matrix]

I’m going to be your retro game therapist and help you through this issue

[hearty marten]

But as I said, “set and forget” is the number 1 reason to get a MiSTer for me

If I wanted to fuck around with configs or have an inaccurate experience I’d just use retroarch

[burnt matrix]

I’d also argue that unless someone here told you you’re having an inaccurate experience you wouldn’t even know

[hearty marten]

But this is the point - I want the most accurate experience and to not have to worry about whether or not I’m getting that. If I didn’t care about how accurate it was, I’d save the £500 or so I spent on my MiSTer and just use retroarch

Yes, you could not care about how accurate any core is, but then I’d question why you’re even here in the first place

I just want to play the games as Miyamoto intended. What’s so wrong with that?

[burnt matrix]

Then you should own an original Saturn tbh

No core is perfect

[hearty marten]

No, but it’s a balance of many things. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty much the closest you’re gonna get with all the other benefits that MiSTer offers

By that logic the MiSTer shouldn’t exist and we should all use original hardware or retroarch based pi machines

[burnt matrix]

You specifically said you wanted most accurate experience

[hearty marten]

Either everything is perfect and we can never get there, or we don’t care at all and just want to play games

[burnt matrix]

I told you what it was

it’s pretty clear cut

[hearty marten]

Okay

I’ll cancel my order. You’re right

[burnt matrix]

Thank you

Please get a Pi instead

[hearty marten]

I hope that Nat at misterfpga.co.uk is happy

[ember terrace]

I think it's kind of a miracle that we have Saturn at all on this little device

[burnt matrix]

Yup

I play Saturn with slowdown because it teaches Naka a valuable lesson

Should’ve worked for Nintendo

[hearty marten]

Oh, it still slows down dual, from what I can tell. The difference is it slows down just right

You enjoy each frame for precisely as long as Miyamoto intended you to

[green swift]

I'm just happy we have options. Though I do try to use my dual RAM MiSTer when playing Saturn 'just in case' even though in most cases it's likely not necessary. I'm just glad we have the core at all. SRG could've have just stopped development when single RAM limitations were presented.

[burnt matrix]

it’s ok #1046941029296779344 chat I’ve averted my attention to riling up #1453762839809491107

[visual sundial]

I think Robby just likes to wind people up about this @hearty marten, most of us who use the Saturn core a lot go the dual SDRAM route

[burnt matrix]

Listen, as long as we don’t reveal my dark secret

We’re good

[hearty marten]

Obviously everyone has different priorities and different things that they value, and there’s no wrong way to play the games, but I also think people should be fully informed

[burnt matrix]

🙏

[hearty marten]

And “it’s only a few fighting games” undersells it a bit, imo

[burnt matrix]

I just like arguing with @hearty marten because he doesn’t pull punches but I know he’s looking out for me

[visual sundial]

I’ve only been here a week and it already seems to be a recurring conversation lol

[hearty marten]

It certainly started out that way, but I think it’s clear that it’s a bit more than this now

[burnt matrix]

It is always my fault lol

[hearty marten]

We good bro. I know u trollin’

[burnt matrix]

yeah it’s perfect, and you’ve already figured out how to shut me up

Which kinda sucks for me but hey you got the cheat code

[hearty marten]

RobbyShark

[burnt matrix]

Like how do I respond to this

You won, lmao

[hearty marten]

I just think it’s sad that a moderator of the official MiSTer discord is discouraging people buying things from community sellers 😭

[burnt matrix]

OKAY OKAY

no hitting below the belt!

[hearty marten]

[burnt matrix]

shit

[burnt matrix]

That one is really good

Oh my god

[hearty marten]

I’m kidding 😄

[burnt matrix]

No but for real

[burnt matrix]

you’re gonna have to help me figure out how to respond to this one

[hearty marten]

Honestly it was a bit mean me framing it that way

You weren’t saying that at all

[burnt matrix]

It’s not mean

It’s awesome

[visual sundial]

Philosophically there’s this idea that everything should encouraged to work with single SDRAM setups because that’s what most people have. But Saturn is never going to be perfect on single SDRAM

[north parrot]

a lot of setups use the other GPIO for other stuff too

[hearty marten]

You were joking with me because I was in on the joke, but the point is that single ram is the official stance, and people should be informed before spending money

[burnt matrix]

Yeah but you gotta understand

that is such a perfect retort

you immediately put in me in the defensive

[hearty marten]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-burns-mr-burns-dancing-smithers-puppet-puppet-master-gif-1484594276812785677

[burnt matrix]

Sidestepped the conversation entirely and reframed it with a logical conclusion that clearly paints me as the bad guy

ok sorry, I’ll refocus

But damn

https://tenor.com/view/oscars-standing-ovation-clap-clapping-applause-gif-5089552

That one is for you amigo

I like Saturn

I don’t get Nights though

it’s ok

[north parrot]

just say NO to dual ram IMO :), surely 2026 is the year of a new FPGA platform being adopted

stronger, better, faster and all that

[visual sundial]

Dreamcast 🤭

[north parrot]

got my first mister built in 2018.. it's time for a hardware update i say!

[pine bobcat]

Is the core still picky about RAM?

I have a spare 2.4 module I could use for the 2nd slot
A while back the core had pretty tight memory tolerances and people were having issues with older RAM, so I didn't bother trying dual at the time

[burnt matrix]

I think that got greatly improved

The ram with the four chips might still be an issue

But that was built off spec so it’s the manufacturer’s fault there

[ancient surge]

Still would recommend upgrading to the latest 128MB module if possible, simply for the best compatibility with everything.

[pine bobcat]

oh I have a 2.9 that works fine as single
I've just been interested in trying dual but didn't bother before due to the issues people were having

[burnt matrix]

I forgot, you just need 32mb for the second ram slot? Right?

I mean you’re right just get 128mb

[pine bobcat]

My 2.4 is MisterAddons from his first 128MB batch, I'll give it a try
Wonder what a good test for dual RAM would be
Something that would indicate it was working without issues

[floral saddle]

I doubt the dual core build would even work with single? So shouldn't be difficult to check it's working.

[pine bobcat]

I mean with a v2.9 128MB in the main slot (what I have now)
and an older v2.4 128MB in the second slot

[celest lake]

I believe 32mb has trouble with DOA. Could be wrong about that, though

[celest lake]

that should be totally fine

[burnt matrix]

Oh wow

[pine bobcat]

the 2.4 originally had problems in the early days of the Saturn core using the Sega rally test, back when timings were tight

Hence me buying the 2.9

[celest lake]

it should be ok in the 2nd slot though

but the best way to test is to run DOA on attract mode for 20 minutes or so

if it doesn’t crash, then you should be good to go

[mortal mist]

1.1 , 2.4 , 2.5 all good

I tested them all, it was fixed a long time ago.

[pine bobcat]

cool, thanks

[jagged spire]

To be fair, playing Burning Rangers with additional slowdown sounds like a special kind of hell

[graceful horizon]

#1046941029296779344 message not this

[graceful horizon]

Wait, it runs faster on native hardware?

[visual sundial]

Burning Rangers slows down on real hardware too. I’m actually impressed by how the dual SDRAM core slows down in games in all the same places that I remember real hardware slowing down. This is a good thing

[neon wind]

So single RAM core slowdowns are impossible to improve? Starting to regret my SuperStation One purchase now.

[mortal mist]

please read this

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Saturn_MiSTer/issues/251#issuecomment-2482401756

[green swift]

SS One is an FPGA PS One with bonus cores.

If you want a MiSTer get a MiSTer

[neon wind]

Cool.

[green swift]

Sorry to be blunt. :/

Still a really cool system! I do want an SS One, but I plan to put it in a CRT setup.

[neon wind]

OK

[sturdy dagger]

Whilst it might be marketed as that. It’s still a Mister. I guess due to the lack of dual ram support, one could compare it to an analog io mister setup

[sturdy dagger]

Don’t need to regret the Superstation one. It’s still a mister and will run anything that a normal non dual ram mister setup can run.

[neon wind]

Oh I know. Was just wondering if it's really not possible for the single RAM core to improve enough to remove RAM related slowdowns. There doesn't seem to be agreement on the answer to that based on everything I've read.

[green swift]

I steer people away from the niche MiSTers since there are often caveats. If you want full compatibility get a DE-10 nano otherwise accept that you may run into issues.

[visual sundial]

Single RAM might improve, but we gotta stop with this cope that it’s going to be fully solved imo

[green swift]

Yeah, it's a WIP. Treat it as such.

[neon wind]

I just hope it gets "good enough" at some point.

VF2 and NiGHTS are important games to me.

[visual sundial]

I think it’s a big shame that SuperStation doesn’t support dual SDRAM. It’s a MiSTer with bells on after all

[sturdy dagger]

Could always just cancel it and either wait for a mister pi batch or buy a qmtech from AliExpress.

Maybe see some footage first of the games you want to play. I’m guessing someone’s played Nights on a single ram build

Dual ram doesn’t seem to be super popular still

[warped saddle]

the ss supporting dual ram would have made a bunch of other features they wanted to do way more difficult

[neon wind]

I've seen enough footage, yeah. Dual RAM looks like the way to go for my case.

[neon wind]

Right. Blocks analog out I think, right?

[visual sundial]

I think the MultiSystem is largely in the same situation right?

[green swift]

Yeah

[sturdy dagger]

Well the superstation won’t support dual ram then. So you probably have your answer.

[green swift]

unless they solved that, but I don't keep up on the niche mister consoles. I like the flexibility.

The clones are cool

BUT they are clones, not DE-10s

so there might still be underlying issues

[visual sundial]

There’s hope that the Fast Timings option might improve. The dev has said themselves it’ll never be fully solved though

[sturdy dagger]

I’d email Taki, request a cancellation, ask when mister pi batch is. Look at qmtech or save for a proper de10 nano

[warped saddle]

also given srg's description of the memory stuff in that issue, it is likely the dual ram builds are also "inaccurate" but just not enough to feel it. would proably require side by side comparisons and frame counting to even notice it

[neon wind]

Thanks. I'll shut up now so I'm not flooding the thread with purchasing advice. 😂

[sturdy dagger]

So far so good. I’ve had mine for a year now. Batch 2 Mister Pi. Only issue I remember was the n64 core needing some timings changed. Which the core dev did.

[green swift]

Yup

Robert was quick to fix that

[sturdy dagger]

It’s absolutely fine. If you have anymore questions, just ask away

[green swift]

I just got a QMtech in the other day. Still need to set it up.

[sturdy dagger]

I’d loved to have gotten a proper de10. But I was too late. Terasic increased the price and never reduced it. Makes sense I guess if people are paying the higher price still

[visual sundial]

I’m happy enough with my HamGeek/qmtech w/ dual SDRAM. Some people act like they’re somehow really buggy but it just performs like a MiSTer should

[sturdy dagger]

(Then again, due to analogues funky fomo shenanigans. I could probably now sell that mega sg and buy a proper de10)

[visual sundial]

The consolised MiSTers are aesthetically neat but they actually take up more space than a MiSTer in the classic layered cube lol

[ripe valley]

Regarding the handling of a single RAM module with the Saturn core, it's not possible to improve anything regarding to the last GitHub post about it.
The situation hasn't changed since then: the fast timing options mitigate most extreme cases at possible.

srg320 has already rewritten the SDRAM controller several times and was very clear in that post: we can't do anything more.
Only 5 games are truly affected. The fast timing options significantly improve the situation, but the result isn't perfect.
DDR3 latency is at fault here.

[neon wind]

Thanks for this.

[visual sundial]

fyi Dead or Alive and Sonic R are other known problem games

[neon wind]

Any footage out there of performance of those 5 games with the fast timing option set?

[ripe valley]

I understand that there might be other slowdowns that I haven't detected and/or that could be addressed by this option.

Besides, I don't know every game inside and out; some people might have knowledge or years of experience with specific games that I don't.

However, I'm getting used to the results on the test ROMs. Everything passes on the test ROMs except for a timing test on the SCU, but the test isn't a complete failure like on all emulators, and even some ODEs on the real machine.

[ripe valley]

I don't know if some of the recordings have been completed yet, and I can't help you at the moment.

I warned yesterday that I needed to rest completely for at least several days because my health is really bad & I can't manage or respond to everyone here for long.
I took the liberty of writing today because I wanted to see what's happening with this current flurry of activity on the thread.

[neon wind]

No worries. Thanks for the responses and go take care of yourself. 😉

[ripe valley]

If someone wants to make a long comparison, with comparative videos with & without the option, I wouldn't stop them and it would even be welcome for documentation purposes.

[sturdy dagger]

Get well soon

[ripe valley]

You're far damn right here.
Enough for not being detected by the current testroms too.

[green swift]

Yeah, Zet. Take care of yourself. Sorry to hear that you're ill.

Don't mind us savages squabbling in the pit. 🙂

[warped saddle]

do the testroms exercise multiple components at the same time or do they tend to focus on one at a time?

[ripe valley]

On a first part, all known instructions of a specific chip are listed and tested to ensure their responses and response times are correct.
Known hardware bugs and instruction collisions are also checked.

On a second part, timers are tested back and forth with the other chips directly connected to the first one.
For example, how does the SCU react with the two SH-2s (Master & Slave).

[ripe valley]

I scratched my right cornea (corneal abrasion) yesterday morning when I broke my glasses during a household accident.
A week with an eye patch and painkillers, and I've seen much worse.

If I've answered everyone's questions correctly, I'm going to take a week off now.

[graceful horizon]

Its a sega saturn and jaguar core relevant only

[jagged spire]

IIRC it slows down to single-digit FPS on real hardware, so if there's any additional slowdown, that would be hell that no burning ranger could tame

[graceful horizon]

Yeah it was a slide show

Too bad since the game seems great

I might boot it up emulated instead

[jagged spire]

wait, I think I've heard it has additional slowdowns on single ram, but I haven't tested it

[graceful horizon]

Panzer dragoon zwei keeps winning

That game had minimal slow down and tuns 60

[jagged spire]

the mister even replicates that weird bug when you connect an analog controller

[graceful horizon]

My guy, this is a console i only have experience with through mister

So the more nuanced hardware specific shenanigans is stuff i am not aware of

[neon wind]

I used to get excited when old games would slow down. Just means the game is too awesome.

[graceful horizon]

Then with the more odd single ram core issues ive came across made me rethink if this console genuinely run games this badly or is it a single ram core issue

[graceful horizon]

Depends on how severe. Like the summons slowi g down Final fantasy tactics is awesome but during burning ranger? Not really

Also playing star fox 64 on starship made me enjoy the game more

[neon wind]

I just accept it as part of the charm of retro gaming.

[graceful horizon]

Dude right now idk if the stuff i see on mister's saturn core is from the way it is or core issues

It's not every game though

Most of them don't seem like they have issues with single ram

[graceful horizon]

Most snes and arcade games ive loved ran 60 then have dips in certain sections then back up

Still felt responsive to play. The n64 and saturn had some bangers i wish ran better like burning ranger

The recent slew it pc source ports made me appreciate these games more

[burnt matrix]

Wait I have a question

why are you so cool?

[ripe valley]

It's a mystery.

[wise brook]

Raytracing on the Saturn (updates 1/4 per frame and smoothly increases the shadows) :
https://streamable.com/t7tb86

[burnt matrix]

I like that it seems to be a universal truth that Sega fans make the impossible happen on any Sega hardware.

[hearty marten]

They need to make the Shenmue Prototype build happen on my MiSTer 😭

Someone must have it, somewhere

[winter phoenix]

Hot new Sega Saturn homebrew FPS Vigilant Paradise already has an update! See what developer Riccardo Campione changed and still has in store for the future:

https://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2026/01/16/vigilant-paradise-update-addresses-bugs-difficulty/

[burnt matrix]

I don’t know what I like more, the indie game or the handsome and cool dude who wrote the article

[winter phoenix]

oh u

[river wing]

I tried to warn people about the SuperStation thing being single RAM time ago...

[glossy steppe]

Technically... it looks like it might be possible for the DE-25 Nano to both do dual-RAM while also still giving us analog out with no downsides... technically.

[hearty marten]

Bring on triple ram

[jagged spire]

I just bought a DE-10 Nano 😢

[hearty marten]

I yearn for 384MB SDRAM

[hearty marten]

Welcome to the club! Nothing wrong with the DE-10. It’ll give you many years of retro game playing!

[drowsy hull]

With that exclusive ddr4 part, one might call it ready for quad ram!

[hearty marten]

Pentaple RAM!!

How many RAMs must an FPGA system have, before you can call it cycle accurate? 🎵

[glossy steppe]

We don't know yet if the DE-25 will EVER be used for the mister project anyway

That being said, it seems to have a few changes/additions that feel like they were almost intentionally made with to mitigate some o the DE-10's biggest handicaps in Gen5 cores

[hearty marten]

Unless it has significant advantages, I think there are significant risks associated with “forking” the community tbh

But maybe it won’t matter

[drowsy hull]

any day now robby and the resident jesusfish will release the de25 port

[glossy steppe]

Like how there are two sets of 1GB of DDR4 RAM instead of one set of 1GB DDR3, one set is shared with the CPU and FPGA like on the DE-10, but the other is dedicated to the FPGA. And it has 128MB of built-in SDRAM while apparently not using up the GPIO pins for it

[hearty marten]

We just need to wait and see

[glossy steppe]

And of course a bigger (though not massively so) and faster FPGA

The RAM being shared between the CPU and GPU are the reason for many of the existing problems with the N64 and Saturn core, and of course, the amount of GPIO pins means you can either go dual-ram or analog, but if it already has 128mb of sdram built in and the same number of GPIO pins then you can do both

But like I said, no guarantee it will be used

[glossy steppe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWN7POyT1wk

[jagged spire]

I'm sure that my dream core (||Tumblepop||) will only be possible with the power of the DE-25

[glossy steppe]

Saturn and N64 were big ones for me since software emulation was not that great, especially for saturn, back in 2022

The next big one I would wnat it definitely not possible even on DE-25 so whatever arcades the de-25 makes possible that the de-10 can't I guess

Oh, and virtual boy would be neat, especially if the 3d effect can be replicated somehow (some of us do still have 3d tvs...) but I am pretty sure the de-10 can handle virtual boy

[hearty marten]

Me too. I mean, I didn’t know if they were possible, but I’m glad they are

Saturn was somewhat far along when I purchased, but still not clear if it would work anywhere near as well as it does now

N64 was still considered probably impossible

[glossy steppe]

I git mine of Christmas of 24

... litrally, it arrived in the middle of Dec 25, 2024. Who the hell delivers packages on Christmas?

[hearty marten]

Early 23 for me I think

N64 core started very shortly afterwards 😅

So very fun to be along for the ride

[visual sundial]

The main reason I very belatedly jumped onto MiSTer recently was the consoles I’m interested in, namely Saturn, N64, PS1, 32X, Jaguar and all that era, are well supported now

[jagged spire]

I'm here for the weirdo arcade cores and convenience. Got most of the big consoles when they sold for pennies (my Saturn was like 20€?), but I can use arcade sticks and stuff w/ the mister (which is especially enjoyable for Saturn games)

[winter phoenix]

RTX is ON for the Saturn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8rQ47YRbFs

[winter phoenix]

https://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2026/01/16/xl2-demonstrates-raytracing-on-the-saturn/

[burnt matrix]

That doesn’t look like Toy Story

[glossy steppe]

Big deal, I can trace rays on saturn too

[wide glacier]

it's all speculation now, but if the mister project does move to the DE-25 nano (or any other next-gen FPGA board), i'm looking forward all of the 5th gen consoles seeing improvements. truth be told, i still use my real saturn and N64 consoles over the mister cores 🤐

as @burnt matrix said, no core is perfect, but many of the older cores are stable, mature and feature-rich enough for me to consider them a viable replacement and even an improvement over the original hardware. right now, the saturn and N64 cores simply don't fall into that category for me, as good as they are

[glossy steppe]

I doubt the DE-25 will outright replace the 10, likely both will be supported for a while

Though I admit I am shocked by the tiny difference in price, the 25 is only $23 more than a 10

Shame it's not like a Raspberry Pi where you could just load the software on a newer one since if the 25 was supported already there will be a little reason to buy a 10 right now unless you're getting a much cheaper clone

[wide glacier]

i mentioned a while ago that it might be cool to see the 10 turn into the standard configuration, and have the 25 be a sort of "deluxe" board

[glossy steppe]

MiSTer Pro 🤣

[scarlet goblet]

I would imagine that if people bought lots of DE25s, tthe price would go up.

[burnt matrix]

I don't think we'd as a community would have much of an impact in comparison to their sales to other industries like manufacturing or education. But I haven't really kept up with who the target market the de25 is for.

[jagged spire]

DE-25 nano designed specifically for Fighting Vipers enthusiasts

[finite hound]

what is the difference between the 23-lite and the 25-nano and 25-standard ?

[radiant karma]

Relevant to mister, De23lite uses agilex 3, no arm HPS, only one gpio expansion, built in 64mb sdram. De25 standard uses agilex 5, arm HPS, one gpio expansion, built in 64mb sdram, 1gb of shared ddr4. De25 nano, nearly same as standard but 128mb built in sdram, has 2 gpio expansion, 1gb exclusive ddr4 for the FPGA + 1gb shared ddr4. So the de25 nano is best suited for a mister2.

[visual sundial]

I guess it cones down to if it’s powerful enough to run the next tier of consoles/arcades

[burnt matrix]

It is not about power but about what we can do with that power!!!!! The human spirit is the real engine powering our dreams!!!!!

[glossy steppe]

It's not, it's not going to be close even for Dreamcast, much less the rest of Gen 6, but it could allow for much higher accuracy and supported features for the N64 and Saturn cores, could even help older ones like the Genesis cores.

Some of the changes are suspeciously the EXACT thing the DE-10 is lacking that causes these headaches

(And of course, it's no secret that Sorg was one of the people Terasic consulted when asking developers what they wanted in it)

[radiant karma]

I has about 20% more LEs and Bram. But it can do speeds above 300mhz. that is a big 4x jump. I don't think Dreamcast is possible, but maybe doing some sort of hybrid emulation as the arm cores are much more powerful. Most limits on current cores are because of memory bandwidth, and even some cores weren't possible like midway mk, with cps3 maybe hitting the same limits. The de25 nano could use triple sdram to get around those limits akin to the de10 nano using dual ram now on some cores.

[safe trail]

If only they had listened more carefully

[hearty marten]

It’s so funny how often this comes up now

[glossy steppe]

Triple SDram, is that even possible? I would think it needs to be multiples of 2s

Also dual-SD+dedicated 1GB of DDR4 should alrady help a lot, i don't think a theoretical trioram can add much to that

[hearty marten]

Except that DDR4 has longer refresh times, apparently

So it’s not an obvious win

[glossy steppe]

It does, but would triple sd even help with that

If it's even possible

[hearty marten]

Depends what you need to do

[glossy steppe]

Pretty sure you would have to go quad

[hearty marten]

But there’s really no point in speculating. People are looking into it, we’ll see what happens

[hearty marten]

I don’t think this is true

[green swift]

Yeah.

Isn’t there a PLL limitation that’s kind of a complete show stopper on the DE-25?

[hearty marten]

#dev-talk message

[glossy steppe]

What is PLL? Surprised it has limits the DE-10 does not

[green swift]

Phase lock loop. A fractional pll is what allows cores to have their accurate clocks.

If accuracy is the name of the game then a non fractional pll is bad.

Or devs can pull an Analogue and make their cores all 60Hz to accommodate modern TVs.

59.94Hz is close enough to 60

I’m joking of course (but kind of not)

[sharp forum]

wouldn't that also affect the clock signals used by CPUs and other stuff? those are almost never whole numbers

[wide glacier]

forcing everything to 60hz would be enough to turn me away from a new platform entirely

[green swift]

I’d kinda like it for an HD tv. It’s what Analogue did for Super NT and Mega SG, maybe others?

But there’s a part of my brain that would know it’s not accurate and I’d like an option for accurate timings.

[green swift]

I’m sure that would play a role, but I’m no dev.

[hearty marten]

Why?

[quick harbor]

made a simple shell for the snac adapter by blue1

[haughty dove]

I don’t play MiSTer for accuracy specifically, I play MiSTer because it connects to my CRT by default and uses original hardware controllers to give a lag-free experience.

I use alternate YC values to get better than hardware display over composite.

In order for me to upgrade from MiSTer, the FPGA device would have to be able to play the PS2 and Dreamcast, and that’s not in the cards.

As it stands, a more powerful board would only increase a nebulous percentage of “accuracy,” allow a few more arcade boards, and possibly allow savestates on more cores.

I’ve put close to a thousand dollars into my mister at this point. I’m not starting from scratch again for that.

[visual grove]

Mister: $93.000 cheap and easy

[graceful horizon]

N64 is also not too accurate?

neither way I got my mister for gen1-4

the main motive was arcade cores, neo geo and snes

switching carts and such on my actual snes isn't as convenient

[wide glacier]

i think some games still crash on the N64 core. wonder project J2 comes to mind

no 64DD support either which, while not huge, is important for me, personally

[graceful horizon]

well, I don't have an 64dd

so those games were simply emulated on here

[wide glacier]

summercart 64 plays them natively

[graceful horizon]

really? that's awesome

[wide glacier]

yeah, no conversions or anything

[graceful horizon]

I like that I don't need to pull out every console and put them on the shelf too

just having the gen 6 consoles on a cart is too much

having one box do everything I own already and more is great

I want the mister to get onto a new FPGA board though, the de-10 is an old one already

[wide glacier]

many are saying this

[graceful horizon]

hopefully someone that's knowledgable starts working on such a thing

got to give props to all the hobbyists who made these cores and even emulation possible in the first place

What's already possible is impressive

but man, I want cps3 and that one arcade board with all the good cave games

wait, do we have ST-V support on the mister?

isn't that board the one the saturn was based off?

[pearl harbor]

Yes

[graceful horizon]

is it a seperate core or just on saturn?

or is it under "arcade"

[pearl harbor]

It's in the arcade folder.

Running update_all will put the games in there as usual.

[graceful horizon]

I need to reorganize that folder

it has repeated rom entries and some that don't work

[pearl harbor]

I would just purge the folder then and run update_all.

[graceful horizon]

thanks for the suggestion

[wise brook]

i’d settle for psp, ds, DC and all similar spec arcades

perhaps ps2 becomes the “impossible core” of the next fpga platform

[visual sundial]

Some of the 3D arcade cores would be interesting. Sega Model 1-2 at least, maybe even Model 3 though that might be a stretch

[glossy steppe]

Would even Model 2 be possible? Isn't the Saturn weaker than a model 2?

[ripe valley]

https://segaretro.org/Sega_Model_2

Nope, nope, nope.

(Just passing by)

[glossy steppe]

Huh, I recall hearing that SEGA was not able to port Model 2 games to the Saturn without compromises because of hardware limitations

[thorn pagoda]

its probably 2-3x more powerful

just going by daytonna running twice the framerate and higher res

[glossy steppe]

Yeah, so likely outside the limits of the DE-10

[green swift]

Even System 32 might not work on DE-10. Look how difficult it has been to get Outrun running on MiSTer.

[thorn pagoda]

well saturn is pretty inefficient with all its complexity but still yeah i doubt it

[glossy steppe]

Is the Model 2 also complicated with half a dozen different processors like the Saturn or is it simpler?

[visual grove]

Sega loves kitchen sinky hardware. Just glue on more hardware

[thorn pagoda]

its still got loads of processors but the busses a bit less crazy and the processors are the same just duplicated iirc

[glossy steppe]

To be fair Sony did that with features on their systems, which they slowly remove in revisions

[green swift]

Would love to see System 32 on MiSTer though, and the rest of the super scalers. One can hope.

[glossy steppe]

Remember the IR port on the PSP?

[visual grove]

We were just talking about what a mess Naomi is on another discord where one user summaries the IO situation as a clusterfuck:
“JVS, Maple, devices wired via Sega's custom RS422, various devices wired via RS232 serial, custom optical comm protocol, ArcNet, Ethernet/TCP, G2 IO boards, and other devices I forgot 🙂”

[glossy steppe]

I thought System 32 was already on Windows?

[visual grove]

Sega never got better at it 😆

[glossy steppe]

The Dreamcast's hardware wasn't a mess though, right?

[thorn pagoda]

pretty tidy

[visual grove]

Yeah fair, Naomi was more in keeping with tradition of who knows what we will need, dump it all in

[glossy steppe]

Shame they had already sort of lost so much credibility with the SegaCD... and 32X... and Saturn... and it not having DVD support when their main competition did was kind of a nail in the coffin

[thorn pagoda]

its pretty amazing how well it can run gta3

not that we really knew that at the time

[glossy steppe]

Yeah, but then they ah-... they made ah-.... they made the ah-ah-ah-ACHOO! Aww man, there goes the Hikaru board I was about to mention

[hearty marten]

I knew in my heart

[visual grove]

Naomi2 was made after where they again just dumped another GPU on there

[glossy steppe]

When will people learn you can't just toss a second GPU in there to fix something?

[visual grove]

Then they said screw it and did weird Xbox and GameCube collabs that were also kitchen sinked for IO with the Chihiro and Triforce

[glossy steppe]

.... ignore my SLI PC from 2012

[thorn pagoda]

the ps4 pro is basically tossing in a secong gpu

[glossy steppe]

? It is? I thought it was just slightly upgraded

[thorn pagoda]

it can be effective depending on your goals

no they butterflied the entire gpu there's two next to each other

on the same die

[glossy steppe]

Oh, like AMD's chiplets?

[thorn pagoda]

i can't remember if chiplets physically touch or not

[glossy steppe]

I don't think they do? Or even if they do, they aren't connected that way

[thorn pagoda]

its all one die on ps4

[visual grove]

https://tenor.com/view/magneto-power-magnus-erik-gif-13970318

[glossy steppe]

Oh, AMD's chiplets are multiple dies under the IHS

[thorn pagoda]

https://www.digitalfoundry.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-inside-playstation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

[glossy steppe]

So you mean they just added the traces of a second GPU like the SPE's on the cell CPU?

[visual grove]

There wasn’t a welcome to die gif

[thorn pagoda]

"First, we doubled the GPU size by essentially placing it next to a mirrored version of itself, sort of like the wings of a butterfly. That gives us an extremely clean way to support the existing 700 titles," Cerny explains

[glossy steppe]

Also I thought the PS4 Pro was only a little more powerful than a standard PS4, not double?

[thorn pagoda]

its 2x gpu

the cpu is about the same though

[glossy steppe]

Huh, I have a PS4 pro and it dosen't feel twice as powerful as when I have seen people palying on a standard ps4

[thorn pagoda]

makes sense to push a 1080p console to 4k

[glossy steppe]

Though, the disk drive in mine is broken >.<

(You know, the disk drive that can't play 4k Blu-Rays in a console that's all about 4K and was advertised with the work 4K every 10 seconds in the hour long presentation...)

Apparently I need to compeltey dissessemble it, including taking the heatsink off the CPU/GPU, to get to the disk drive

Great design

[thorn pagoda]

i honestly cant think if i ever used the disc drive on mine a single time heh

[glossy steppe]

Heh, for consoles I buy physical whenever reasonably possible

I actually got a used Xbox One S for $80 from a flea market a few months ago JUST to use as a 4k blu-ray player

Was cheaper than any decent 4k player new XD

[hearty marten]

Physical media ftw

[glossy steppe]

Agreed

Ironically, for that Xbox One, it wasn't. Because I decided to get Rare Replay for it since it was like $7, but apparently due to some licensing bullshit they can only include Goldeneye 007 on the digital version...

[hearty marten]

TIL, thank you

[glossy steppe]

Yeah, I literally only got 3 games for it, all of them under $10, since there was nothing else I cared for on it that I didn't have on PC and/or PS4 🤣 Not counting the dozens of 360 digital storefront pages I had from years prior. Like I said, mostly got it because I didn't have a 4K Blu-Ray player and that's what I wanted it for.

[pearl harbor]

More like 3x the frame rate!

[winter phoenix]

My friend Mr. Frederickson lost his battle with terminal cancer over the weekend. He'd worked for a year to translate the sequel to his favorite Sega Saturn RPG "Mystaria: The Realms of Lore" but passed it to others in the community in his final days. His story:

https://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2026/01/19/fan-passes-torch-on-riglordsaga-2-english-translation-before-losing-battle-with-cancer/

[celest lake]

Sorry to hear that, Danthrax ❤️. Hopefully the community can get it over the finish line

[river wing]

I feel you loss...

[hearty marten]

Incredibly sad. Rest in Peace 😔

[glossy steppe]

Sad to hear 🙁 Rest in Peace

[split heart]

Just bought a SNAC adapter for my 3D controller and Saturn arcade stick today

[winter phoenix]

A fine choice

[cobalt rune]

This is shitty news 🙁 RIP. I hope those he passed it on to will be able to finish it in his honor. Fuck cancer

[warped cliff]

RIP, looks like he did what he loved on his way out, with a loving family around him. What a legend.

[burnt matrix]

Sorry to hear and I’m sorry for the community’s loss

[visual grove]

Oof so young too, RIP

[finite hound]

My condolences

[floral saddle]

@ripe valley Here's a Shining Force 3 save that's past all the intro text, just leave the church and you will go straight into battle. Hopefully this makes looking into the bug easier in future.

[ripe valley]

Thanks, I will check it during the next days.

I need 2-3 more days of rest.

[analog raptor]

Is there multiplayer snac available for saturn? I'd like to be able to play Policenauts using an original controller and gun.

[winter phoenix]

would a multitap (technically called the 6Player adapter) work on the Saturn SNAC?

[burnt matrix]

Good question. If you send me one I can test it for you.

[winter phoenix]

if I had one of my own, I would 😛

[burnt matrix]

For what it’s worth I was being sincere and would of course send it back (and pay for postage to send it back).

[winter phoenix]

I know. You're a good guy, Robby

[left chasm]

it's the one snac I left unconfirmed in the wiki as I saw reports of it not working, e.g. #1046941029296779344 message
https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/cores/highlights/saturn/

[untold lintel]

ill try to remember to dig mine out and try

[left chasm]

It wasn't there in Sept/2024 #1046941029296779344 message and seeing this in the code but I didn't parse how itr works works https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Saturn_MiSTer/blob/10f380b5143bf9041b13e422ecfdee60861e98b5/rtl/Saturn/SMPC.sv#L1213

[coarse token]

end else begin //TODO: keyboard,multitap

[untold lintel]

fwiw

it worked at one point

[left chasm]

I somehow read those were usb/bt controllers being recognised by the core as if the multitap? #1046941029296779344 message

or maybe there's more than one, need to search more

[untold lintel]

follow the link the one i forwarded and its named SNAC build

[left chasm]

I know, the link I shared that mentions usb also points to a snac named build, so I was confused still 😅

[untold lintel]

just dug up my tap

i have the black sega one not the bomberman

[inner token]

The Saturn_SNAC_20230915.rbf build has a option to use usb controllers as a multitap, and snac multitap will work also iirc. The Saturn_SNAC_20240129.rbf build is the last build that supported the snac multitap, I disabled that in later builds because of space.

After that I sent the code to SRG320 and he reworked it and included it in the code as it is now. but I deleted the multitap stuff before because it was hacky and I was worried about space.

So I don't think it will work in current builds, but anyone can add it if they want to try.

Controllers are simple right? That's what I always hear 😄

[celest lake]

push a and the italian man jumps

[left chasm]

sure is complicated, I figured I did enough reading of input.cpp etc, tried some logs to figure out what events came from controllers, so much happening. was adding some step to main to try and map analogue triggers, but had to stop for a bit

[ripe valley]

Nothing is simple on the Saturn.

Especially the SMPC chip, what a nightmare... 😱

[inner token]

Adding the usb multitap option seemed pretty easy with the code then, I doubt it would be much harder now(srg reworked the usb controller code when he reworked snac into the core)

[untold lintel]

I feel like that’s a really good intermediary solution too. We’ve kinda known since before core work even started that 10p support was very up in the air, and the number of people who will realistically get 6 people playing Saturn on their mister is less than 1% of users

Of course I’m not contributing any of the work, so I’ll take what I can get either way! Huge props to yall making it happen in the code

[winter phoenix]

12-player support, technically, is possible with two 6Player Adapters. Sega Retro says only three games use all 12 players, though (two Quarterback Club games and an NHL game)

[inner token]

so to do the usb MT you need to get the right values in the OREG. 16 was the ID for the MT then starts the pads attached, 02 was the pad ID and the FFFF were the button state, and it would just be FF for any unused port it looks like. That pic is two multitaps

Simple

Eventually though with enough pads connected you run out of space in oreg and have to use some mechanism like a paging thing. In the pic it's the standard controller, but other controllers use more bytes the 3 of the standard controller

SRG could probably do it in 10 minutes if @ripe valley wants to ask him about it

[left chasm]

pointless brain neuron now wonders about 3d control pad analogue data via multitap 😂

[ripe valley]

I haven't written to srg320 in weeks.
I think he's earned the right to be left alone to work on the 3DO and/or the SNES for a while.

And I was super busy with my family, I haven't taken the time to look for new possible bugs to submit to him. 😏

[inner token]

I agree don't bug him with this, I just wanted to throw that out there that he's really the expert and decider of what features get in.

[ripe valley]

I will check Shining Force III this weekend though.

[winter phoenix]

not only that, but also the mission stick, which has both analog control on the stick and also an analog throttle control sort-of-wheel

and you can connect two mission sticks together to play Panzer Dragoon Zwei 😆

[open swan]

A MiSTer owner with 9 friends? HAH

[untold lintel]

What if I told you I have 9 friends with misters and we’ve all had them in the same place at the same time before

[open swan]

https://tenor.com/view/lielielie-liar-liar-lies-lying-gif-7635594376705111770

[untold lintel]

The truth is out there

[ripe valley]

Fake news. 😏

[left chasm]

hey having multiple personalities is cheating

[graceful horizon]

wow, all those 9 CPS3 beta testers

[burnt matrix]

I like the 90s drum n bass background music

[untold lintel]

one of the players did a live DJ set at the event

[burnt matrix]

That’s awesome

[ripe valley]

At the moment, I can't trigger any visual issue during that battle on the MiSTer Pi & SS1 with the Single RAM Saturn 2026-01-09 core (Normal timings).
I tried 3 times the combat each time, with using Items, Blaze magic, Attacks and all.

I will check the Dual RAM version at a later time, the TV screen where is it plugged in is out of service at the moment (the T-con board in my TV failed the day before yesterday; I'm waiting for the part to arrive for repair tomorrow).

[floral saddle]

Thanks for checking, interesting that you aren't seeing any issue with single.

[graceful horizon]

I thought it was makoto's theme from sf3s for a sec

[marsh crypt]

Am still looking to get a replacement for my console .. but it's hard to find the exact same model in my area

[radiant field]

Question: I’m trying to play Powerslave, I enabled 3D Pad, the joystick works fine, however strafing with L and R doesn’t work. The buttons are mapped and they strangely register correctly in the game’s "remap controls" menu, however pressing them in-game does absolutely nothing. Also strangely if I switch back to Digital Pad, then the L and R buttons work properly. Is there anything I’m not understanding as to how this is supposed to work? Or is it a bug?

[haughty dove]

MiSTer cannot handle 3D pad emulation for Saturn.

Something to do with the analog triggers fucks it up. Will cause all sorts of issues.

If you connect a real 3D Saturn pad via Snac adaptor, it will work just fine though.

[ancient surge]

It just simply has no analog support outside of SNAC. So every input is digital; meaning it's either an input or not, no middle ground.

[haughty dove]

It’s a shame there’s no way to just force it into a binary, considering idk of any Saturn games that use the analog of the shoulders.

I never even knew they were analog buttons until I got into mister, and I’d actually used the controller before.

I just play the PS3 port of Nights instead of the Saturn version on MiSTer. Still outputs to CRT just fine, and framerate is a bit improved too maybe.

[burnt matrix]

It’s not that it cannot handle, it’s that there was never any reason to support another two axis for analog triggers when back then, literally nothing that could run on the MiSTer used analog triggers

And even now the argument for adding it is debatable for the people who have to do the work to add it.

There are likely less than a handful of Saturn games that use analog triggers in any meaningful way and if you really need it then SNAC exists.

but I do ask from time to time

because I’d like them lol

[left hollow]

Little off topic, does pcsx2 even support pressure sensitive buttons? I know Xemu doesn't

[burnt matrix]

Yeah through a button combo

[haughty dove]

Pressure sensitivity is killing video game preservation.

[burnt matrix]

pressure buttons was a stupid idea to be frank

[haughty dove]

And also making controllers feel worse and break down faster.

[burnt matrix]

I liked that they tried it though, now we know lol

[left hollow]

Lame lol

[haughty dove]

I have like four ps2 controllers and all of them are busted; you have to press the face buttons so hard just for them to register at all. I just use my ps1 pad on my ps2 now.

[burnt matrix]

Most people aren’t even aware the PS2 controllers have pressure sensitive buttons.

[left hollow]

I didn't like pressure sensitive buttons but makes it annoying trying to emulate them without it

[haughty dove]

MGS2 and 3 are the only games I ever noticed them in.

[left hollow]

Most game ignored them as far as I know

[burnt matrix]

Ridge Racer V had em

[left hollow]

San andreas had it for driving

[burnt matrix]

Uhhhh the Ace Combats

[haughty dove]

I still need to buy Ridge Racer 4. Think I have a copy of San Andreas laying around. Oh, I have Ace Combat 4!

[left hollow]

Dead or alive used them on xbox, don't know about ps2

[burnt matrix]

Oh yeah Gran Turismo 3

[pearl harbor]

I wish Ridge Racer 5 emulation didn't suck on Steam Deck.

[haughty dove]

PS2 is about the only system I still buy games on, since the only other way I have to play them is pc emulator and I hate using PC to play console game. Also, my ps2 easily hooks up to the crt.

[burnt matrix]

That’s cool, PS2 is great

[haughty dove]

Somehow I’m missing all my 3D platformers and idk where tf they went. All the ratchets and slys are gone, as well as the first two DMC games.

Luckily I have the ps3 collections for those three series and ps3 also connects to CRT.

[pearl harbor]

Maybe for the best that DMC2 is missing.

[haughty dove]

Current ps2 games I’m looking for are Ape Escape 2, Shinobi, Nightshade, and the Gungraves.

[pearl harbor]

Still have all my PS2 games, but haven't hooked up my PS2 in ages.

[haughty dove]

Oh and of course Godhand, but that would be very expensive.

[burnt matrix]

Godhand is expensive?

[pearl harbor]

I used it mostly as an RPG machine though, so I don't have most of those games outside of DMC1 and 3.

[pearl harbor]

I mean, God's hand should be right? It's the hand of the allmighty!

[haughty dove]

PS2 is where I lost interest in RPGs actually, other than loving Final Fantasy X.

Did not like Final Fantasy XII, nor Mega Man X Command Mission, nor Final Fantasy XII-2. Didn’t play Persona 3 and 4 until much later, but Persona 3 is probably my favorite Ps2 game now.

[pearl harbor]

I love Dragon Quest 8 and the Shadow Hearts games.

Easily my favorite PS2 RPGs.

[haughty dove]

I had a demo disc for the second Shadow Hearts game, seemed cool.

I’ll make my way to Dragon Quest 8 eventually, so far I’ve beaten 1 for SNES, 2 for NES, 3 for GBC, and currently left off in chapter 5 in 4 for the DS.

[left hollow]

I liked Dark Cloud 1 and 2

[burnt matrix]

oh lmao God Hand is $160 CIB

[lofty spire]

throw box away, embrace loose discs

[burnt matrix]

Holy shit Silent Hill 3 is $280 lol

I wish I could sell all this shit in one go instead of holding onto it

[left hollow]

https://tenor.com/view/money-smell-sus-gif-23801020

[burnt matrix]

MiSTer killed my desire to collect

[left hollow]

Retro game prices killed my desire to collect

[burnt matrix]

Ok you’re right that was probably the main reason lol

Covid screwed that right up

All the retail arbitrage normies flooded the market

[left hollow]

Miss the days when people would post consoles for like 50 bucks with like 25 games and 7 controllers

That's usually how I collected games, I'd just buy the whole lot and consider the console and controllers a bonus

[wide glacier]

i still have a few PS2 games lying around, but i mostly play everything from an HDD now. PS2 is sooo easy to mod these days, there's no reason not to

[left hollow]

Yea same, though I haven't connected my PS2 up in ages, I keep meaning to

[haughty dove]

I think my most expensive game is Mega Man Legends 2 but I’ve had it since I was a kid so the quality isn’t even great.

Also it’s one of my favorite games of all time so I probably wouldn’t want to sell it anyways.

[burnt matrix]

Hell yeah MML2 represent

[haughty dove]

Ignore the chord mess, but the consoles I have hooked up are MiSTer, Wii, Dreamcast, and PS2.

[burnt matrix]

Also to keep slightly on topic, I signed up for the Citizen’s Fire Academy and will be bringing a small portable speaker playing the Burning Ranger’s theme song

[haughty dove]

Hell yeah!

[radiant field]

Can’t MiSTer translate a digital trigger to the maximum analog value? I don’t understand why it’s not working at all.

[burnt matrix]

I do not know. I know it can interpret an analog input as digital but unsure the other way around.

[glossy steppe]

I thought you was Robby?

[burnt matrix]

I am also as stupid as pressure buttons

[glossy steppe]

Hey now, they were cool in ZOE2

[leaden dagger]

Since they incorporated sdl 3. I use a dualshock 3 with it

[thorn pagoda]

yeah honestly i thought we had this

thats how negcon works on playstation

[warped saddle]

you can, but this is a core thing. it just doesn't connecting anything to the analog triggers in that mode, since there's no analog input from hps that matches

[radiant field]

But then why do they register in the game’s "remap controls" menu? The core is certainly sending something. I would assume it’s sending the lowest possible value? So it registers in the menu because it treats anything non-zero as being pressed, but in-game the value is so small that the character doesn’t appear to strafe at all? Or perhaps there is a deadzone at play?

[warped saddle]

that mapping is only for digital buttons, basically the L/R bumpers on normal controller. it isn't a mapping for L/R analog triggers

[thorn pagoda]

would that be hard to hook up? people sure do love nights

not for full analog, just send the max value

[radiant karma]

There's been plenty of talk, some suggestions like mapping the analog triggers to a right analog stick axis should be possible, but until sorg or a dev decides it is worth the time and effort we are ool.

[wise brook]

must be a tough decision, it’s been 3+ years

[left chasm]

the input and mapping code is hard to follow, not easy to make that change coming from scratch imo

[thorn pagoda]

yeah but forget all that complexity introduced by analog, mapping L/R to the max values should be much simpler

[ancient surge]

I mean, the goal of MiSTer is to be as accurate to original hardware as possible. Which should include emulating the analog controls.

[burnt matrix]

Yes but there’s SNAC

[wise brook]

would it be fair to say there is probably 1 billion-ish controllers in existence with analog triggers?

cheap, plentiful, available

you may have one already

why just this morning i found one down the back of my sofa

[radiant karma]

Most consoles from 6th gen onwards had analog triggers, only the Nintendo switch 1/2 skipped them. So yeah, plenty of controllers to choose from.

[burnt matrix]

stop using logic!

[radiant field]

I’d argue SNAC is extremely niche compared to people using USB controllers. 😅

[hearty marten]

I get why analogue triggers aren’t supported yet, but imo it’s a major omission for the reasons mentioned

Let’s hope someone implements them eventually

[burnt matrix]

[vernal sun]

I see no reason analogue shouldn’t be included. I would hope that it’s ’on the list’ but I don’t know. I’ve never heard a good reason to not support it. I think it’s just the overall pieces of software that uses them is pretty small when you take into account the whole mister ecosystem and all the software it can play. You’re talking about a feature that benefits 1% of mister.

So I get it, maybe not the highest priority but I’d love to see it eventually.

[hallow fossil]

Analogue triggers involves changes in Main and from memory based on what Sorg said GitHub about it years ago, there are considerations and complications around how it could be supported. It isn't like say keyboard support, or midi peripheral support, where it is a straightforward, modular thing, that would just be added to the core, but hasn't as it is very low priority

[left chasm]

It’s OSS, if we want something done, options are to do it ourselves or try and sponsor someone

[sharp forum]

yeah but that's so much more work than just complaining that it isn't supported and then expecting someone else to do it 😢

[hallow fossil]

It is ultimately something that when it comes it will come from Sorg, but maybe he is waiting for more usecases in other cores than just Saturn

Anyhow, here is the ticket and you can read the comments

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/issues/823

Are there other potential usecases for analogue triggers on systems that already we have cores for, or potentially we could have cores for in the future?

Maybe some arcade games, or fancy joysticks for the 486? I honestly have no idea

[burnt matrix]

TLDR if you want analog triggers then you implement it

I don’t know how so I just complain to Sorg once in a while lol

[vernal sun]

Well damn, if it was that easy I would have done Saturn 5 years ago! I think the majority of us are in the same boat of having zero knowledge of where to even start to implement something like that on mister.

I think it’s less complaining and more whittling down the list of things still left on the plate of the core to get it as close to OG hardware as possible. You see it more now vs a year ago just due to the state of the core and how solid it is

I can’t wait for everything to be 100% besides specific parts of an obscure Japanese mahjong game so I can hop in here and complain like I actually care about it.

[burnt matrix]

The lunar mpeg dudes tried that lol

and I get it I really do

[left chasm]

"you can play that title on the PS1" 😂

nope

[burnt matrix]

I should use that one more often

[vernal sun]

The Saturn has higher resolution nipples. I’m a man of culture, hence I play the Saturn version

[burnt matrix]

Yeah if anyone responded with that to me I’d just quietly accept defeat

there is no scenario where arguing that has you coming out the winner

wait I mean it from its icky perspective

Not that they’re right lol

[radiant field]

For the record I’m not even asking for proper analog triggers, I just want them to work even when mapped digitally. The problem seems to be that the digital implementation is sending either the lowest possible value or a value that is out of range for what would work when strafing in Powerslave.

[burnt matrix]

Sorry, I am playing devil’s advocate

I lost those thing so people understand the perspective their up against

I don’t agree with it but it’s easy for me to say since I don’t have to do the work, but I do want it too

Asking someone to just buy a SNAC adapter and an old aging controller is logical but not everyone can do that

[visual sundial]

I cannot use SNAC on my dual SDRAM setup, but I ultimately I accept that I just have to wait for someone to implement analogue triggers. I do not have those skills

[burnt matrix]

Huh how come? The dual ram IO boards should come with a SNAC port

[visual sundial]

On Qmtech at least, the user port is on the analog IO board that has to be removed to use dual SDRAM

[burnt matrix]

oh wacky

[visual sundial]

You can solder a wire to the USB can be restored without using GPIO and I suppose that might restore the user port too

[visual sundial]

The Qmtech design is neat if you intend to just use it as it is. It's a pita if you don't actually want to use their IO board

[burnt matrix]

But pitas are tasty

[hallow fossil]

Again, with Analogue triggers it is a Sorg implemention in Main and not an srg320 only implementation in the Saturn core. Sorg has a lot of things he is working on.

[left chasm]

if there's a good/reasonable PR, guess he would take it (edit: by he I mean Sorg in main)? sorry not following

[glossy steppe]

It's funny how Nintendo was the first to put analog triggers as standard in their controller with the GameCube... and then never used analog triggers ever again while everyone else adopted it as a standard. (And I man actual analog triggers with travel, not the pressure sensative essentially digital buttons the PS2 used)

[glossy steppe]

I don't know if that's on purpose to just being a sarcastic but two obsure Japanse mahjong games are actually the only games that don't work on the SNES core 🤣

Actually, speaking of the Saturn 3D controller, is there a way to map a button to the analog on/off switch? It's been a while but I don't remember if that was an option in the controller settings, pretty sure it wasn't.

Many saturn games did not work with the controller set to analog mode

[radiant karma]

Technically the Dreamcast was the first 🙂

[glossy steppe]

Forgot about that

[visual sundial]

I think Saturn is the only console on MiSTer to have analogue triggers, not counting potential arcade stuff. So I can understand it just not being a priority

[thorn pagoda]

just mapping digital buttons to the virtual analog pads trigger max values is all thats really needed to get most games playing

negcon on psx has this exact issue, and solves it just like that

this doesn't any remarkable new analog trigger support in main or linux, it's all core side

[glossy steppe]

Yeah, on MiSTer Saturn is the only one, and only a handful of games on Saturn support it

.... if there is ever a FPGA that can handle Dreamcast though it will definitely become important

[thorn pagoda]

the biggest benefit would be to negcon on psx, its supported in hundreds of titles

[glossy steppe]

Can't you just map that to the left or rigth analog stick?

[thorn pagoda]

thats what it does yeah, but its kind of compromised, you cant for example accelrate and brake at the same time on a scheme like that

wheras you can on the original pad

[glossy steppe]

I thought it was for steering?

[thorn pagoda]

its got a steering axis and 3 others

two of the buttons and one of the triggers are analog

[glossy steppe]

Ah, I thought it was just the steering axis

[hallow fossil]

I am no expert, but I as I have said I do know it is a Main change rather than just the core. Maybe @warped saddle knows what it would all take to support Ananlogue triggers, and why Sorg has said he needed to consider how to do it. It seems logicial to assume if it wasn't complex someone would have just done it by now though, but I have no idea what would all be involved.

[glossy steppe]

Isn't it something that would need to be added to main? And sorg is very very conservative about messing with main?

[left chasm]

gotcha, yes seems big change in main. I had a first stab at changes to add 2 axis during the main mapping, but app is crashing during mapping and need to figure out why

[glossy steppe]

IIRC there are still fixes to being able to save on the saturn core that are not in stable yet becaue they need to be added to main

[left chasm]

just seeing how analogue sticks get mapped and info sent to cores, no idea what I'm doing otherwise. lots of prints from controller events, struggling lol

[glossy steppe]

I mean, technically only a handful of PSX games used the right stick but analog input of that is implemented

... I love using that thing for stuff like Smash TV on SNES or Xenocrisis on Genesis to turn them into a 2-stick shooter

[warped saddle]

you'd need to change the main mapping to ask about each trigger individually. (just like it asks about analog sticks) and then modify the core framework to accept another two analog axes.

[hallow fossil]

So every time you map your controller it would also ask about ananlogue triggers in the already never-ending process?

[left chasm]

for sure, got that bit! I wrote a doc with the plan, after mapping out the code mainly

I didn't want to bother you Zakk until I advance some more and I'm confident I'll see it through, to not waste your time 😉

[left chasm]

Ideally we'd use Zakk's work to load from the db mappings, for most popular controllers

[warped saddle]

yes, but that dialog would now have two more steps for analog triggers

and the on-disk input mapping format would have to be bumped and migrated

[left chasm]

I was just using a new version, was hoping to leave to users to migrate (by remapping) but that's nicer

[warped saddle]

yeah, you have to migrate. asking people to remap a bunch of cores for a change that is irrelevant to those cores is probably a poor experience

[left chasm]

it is, being lazy. I'll do it as last step of code, if I get there

[warped saddle]

another thing I need to go back and sort out is supporting the 'negative axis' thing in the sdl gamecontroller db

although I suspect this is a 'nintendo sucks' thing mostly

[glossy steppe]

Every core would have to be updated?

[thorn pagoda]

you dont actually need full analog trigger support to just map to the max value

[warped saddle]

yeah, that's just a core change

[thorn pagoda]

i'm honestly surprised its not already in there

[warped saddle]

does nights actually use the full analog-ness of the triggers?

[thorn pagoda]

not according to this gamefaq from 1996

[glossy steppe]

We know, IIRC that's what it already does. People want actual analog input

[thorn pagoda]

someone was saying it doesn't do that, at least in nights

[glossy steppe]

IIRC NiGHTS only used the triggers for tricks, which have no analog input AFAIK

[left chasm]

yes tricks and camera change? iirc it wasn't important, checked the manual yesterday

[glossy steppe]

Taht being said, I did have a lot of issues with nights though on the tricks

But I think something was double-bound

Let me try again

I mean, a single pixel being drawn by accident in the corner of the screen because of a bug isn't important either but that bug was implemented in the NES core since it was accurate behavior 😛

Hmm, nope, NiGHTS still has broken controls for me 🙁

[left chasm]

we have a mapping flow with triggers, the mapping file, and a segfault. progress 😂

[warped saddle]

the segfault is the most important part

[burnt matrix]

Segfault is short for Sega’s fault

[haughty dove]

I’m not saying everything has to be dropped right now to get all hands on deck on fixing saturn analog, but the day that Saturn emulation became viable on MiSTer was the day analog support became a necessary feature to eventually include.

The premier Saturn game in the US market, Nights into Dreams, has its knees broken on the MiSTer.

It’s not just the tricks that don’t work, Nights also floats upwards uncontrollably after depositing chips and completing tracks (tested on two controllers, one of which is hall effect, so not a result of stick drift).

[celest lake]

Um, excuse me, Madden 97 was the premier saturn game in the US market

[warped saddle]

the floating thing may be a legit core bug? the analog triggers not working shouldn't cause that

[haughty dove]

I think you are joking, but I still had to check the US release dates for Saturn games and that made me really sad because holy shit what a bad lineup we got compared to Japan.

[celest lake]

Madden 97 technically outsold nights (which was number 2), but yes, I was joking

[radiant karma]

I really never understood nights popularity. I remember renting the game but it never grew on me and returned it after a couple of days. So I don't have much nostalgia for it.

[celest lake]

Yeah, for being the best selling game, it’s…uh…pretty mid

sorry, 2nd best selling game

[haughty dove]

I didn’t play Nights until I was in my 20s. It’s a great game! One of the best original titles I’ve played on the system for sure.

[left hollow]

That's the game where you fly through rings right?

[haughty dove]

I’m still basically a newbie at the game despite getting the true ending multiple times.

[glossy steppe]

Yeah, I keep expirencing this too, even on a TMR controller it's still happening.

I have used three controllers on my mister by now, two hall effect and one tmr, all three had that happen, as well as tricks not working

[haughty dove]

@left hollow Yeah in Nights you fly around rotating circular tracks collecting items to deposit in bank to get an item that lets you complete the lap. While going around the tracks, you do tricks, go through loops, and complete other stage interactions to get points. Your points along with your clear time determine your rank. You have to best every stage with at least an overall C rank in order to be allowed to play the final stage.

[glossy steppe]

And you need an A rank in every stage if you want the ending to not make your ears bleed 😛

[haughty dove]

XD that is what unlocks the adult version of the theme song right?

[glossy steppe]

Yup, rather than the one sung by kids

[left hollow]

I think I played it a couple times but got bored after couple minutes and never went back

Maybe I didn't play it long enough for it to click

[haughty dove]

It’s not super player friendly. The thing meant to rope you into the game and want to memorize the courses is the 3D analog control…

It’s a score attack game based on replayability and fun control. Although there is also the meta game aspect that I’ve never interacted with much.

Each stage is basically a fish tank living environment that your actions effect, eventually changing the amount and type of npcs present and the music that plays in the stage. Nights was the first use if the A-Life system later used in Sonic Adventure’s chao gardens.

[glossy steppe]

Yeah, I remember the first time I played it at a Best Buy kiosk, hated it, it was just confusing and hard and made no sense. Years later I saw a trailer and it looked amazing, got a Saturn (Back when you could get a Saturn, multiple controllers, and several games together for like $50 max) and loved the game

[haughty dove]

I have very little experience with real Saturn hardware. A friend of mine eventually got one when I was in college and he let me borrow it one Summer. I played Nights until my thumb hurt every day.

The 3D pad’s stick is kind of overly large. I don’t exactly love it, which is why I don’t want to get a saturn snac adapter and 3D pad just to play one game.

[wide glacier]

i love the 3D pad. genuinely one of the best 3D controllers ever, and miles better than the dreamcast controller imo

[jagged spire]

having a d-pad that doesn't destroy your thumb helps

also, hall effect and whatever, but those springs inside the dreamcast analog stick have aged horribly

[visual sundial]

The thing with Nights is that it's a classic score chasing arcade game at its core. You're supposed to be chasing the highest scores on each stage. But people just play through the stages and don't understand what the big deal is

Nights really does need analogue because you're constantly making 360 degree movements for the entire game

[haughty dove]

Dreamcast controller is so bad. I need to buckle down and buy a modern third party one someday.

[jagged spire]

it's just very underwhelming as a flagship title

[haughty dove]

The stick is the least bad thing about it and it’s still too slippery (my thumbs are smooth and slip off of that style of plastic cap).

[visual sundial]

I would agree with this. It's no Mario 64

[jagged spire]

I have the opposite problem, that bumpy texture always made my thumb hurt, and I played a lot of dreamcast

[haughty dove]

Saturn not having a “real” flagship title was a huge problem. In Japan, it was supposed to be Daytona and Virtua Fighter 2. But both those ports turned out so mid that they had to redo them later on.

[visual sundial]

The Dreamcast controller is baffling because they took the Saturn 3D controlelr but made it worse - removed two face buttons, replaced the best D-Pad ever with the worst. Even the cable comes out the controller backwards

[jagged spire]

it's the kind of game that would have been a beloved, japanese-only cult classic on the playstation

but they marketed it by throwing a playstation from a tall building

[haughty dove]

Saturn is an arcade game monster, with a few followups to the Genesis library as extras.

It was never going to succeed in America, even if we did get that one killer app game.

[jagged spire]

i feel like it's the true successor to the 16bit school of gaming, while Nintendo and Sony tried to do something different

[haughty dove]

I’m glad it did well enough in Japan to get a ton more game releases, because damn do I want to play games like that more these days than uh scrolls through ps1 library Tomb Raider.

[visual sundial]

Sega never really stopped being an arcade company at its heart. They never really understood the bigger scale, longer single player home games that were going to come to dominate the industry. The whole pitch of the Saturn was taking those $30,000 arcade machines into the living room. Sega Rally could get away with only having 3 cars and 4 tracks because it was an arcade game at home. But that wouldn't have flew on other platforms

[wide glacier]

nights is perfect when you realize that sega was always best at making arcade-style games and the purpose of the saturn was to bring that home

it just wasn't a good fit for america at the time

[jagged spire]

something like Sega Rally and Daytona would have worked on the very early days of Playstation, but Sony managed to evolve while SEGA didn't

[floral saddle]

Ridge Racer?

[visual sundial]

Like, if you're not chasing links right until the last few seconds of the timer, you're not playing Nights properly

[wide glacier]

funnily enough, one of the prototype dreamcast controllers is quite literally a saturn 3D pad with a VMU slot. i would've much preferred that

[glossy steppe]

The problem with the Saturn 3D controller compared to something like the DualShock is that far fewer games supported it, but makes it a bigger deal with you add in the other problems: That you have to manually switch it between analog and digital mode because it uses a physical switch, and most of the games that didn't support it would not work with it set to analog mode. A few games would even have problems if it was plugged in at all even in digital mode.

Meanwhile the DualShock would start in digital mode and automatically switch to Analog if a game supported it, and I don't recall hearing of any PSX games that had issues with it plugged in

[wide glacier]

that aspect of it is definitely primitive by today's standards, but flicking the switch takes the least amount of time and effort imaginable

[glossy steppe]

Also it's clear they were planning to do more with the 3D controller but never got around to it, anyone who has owned one would see how you can oddly unplug the cable from it and it reveales some kind of edge connector

[visual sundial]

I think towards the end of the PlayStation, that would have been more difficult

[wide glacier]

at least there are people making use of that today. there's a USB adapter for it, and i think someone was working on a wireless module at one point

[glossy steppe]

Yes, the switch is easier than the DualShock's button only because the button is depressed, but I literally never had to use the button, it would auto-switch to analog if a game supported it

[haughty dove]

Rage Racer and R4 are so damn good. Those games could still exist on ps1 because of the low cost of development. PS2 is where Ridge Racer no longer had a home. Just became a series of endless ports after that.

[glossy steppe]

Like how there was homebrew to use the never-officially-used IR port on the launch model PSPs XD

[wide glacier]

i've tried a few third party ones and even those don't get it right imo

[glossy steppe]

Or all the homebrew devices to use the unused ports on the GameCube...... for ISO loading

[floral saddle]

I think PS1 is just as arcade driven as Saturn when you look at the library.

[wide glacier]

insane take, sorry

[floral saddle]

It's true if only because of the size of the library and support from Namco, Taito etc, it's stuffed full of arcade ports.

[visual sundial]

PS1 also has just such as insane depth and breadth to its library that you can find plenty of examples of most kinds of games

[haughty dove]

PS1 had a ton of arcade games too, because PS1 had a ton of games, period.

[wide glacier]

yeah, the only reason there's so many arcade ports on PS1 is because of the sheer size of it's library. it's not like the saturn where arcade ports are practically it's bread and butter

[glossy steppe]

Didn't the PSX literally not support 2D and any 2D games were basically running in 3D?

[haughty dove]

You could release an arcade port for like 20-30 bucks and make back your development cost and more back on ps1, because people were buying so many more games than they used to.

[floral saddle]

PS1 has way more arcade puzzle and music ports than Saturn too, it's so strong there in comparison.

[haughty dove]

The Saturn was made specifically for arcade style experiences though, so those same sorts of games tend to play better on Saturn. PS1 often had to include a lot of extra features as incentives to play them on there instead.

[visual sundial]

The point I was trying to make really was that Sega as a company never lost its arcade sensibilities

[glossy steppe]

And now Sonic is on Nintendo systems...

[haughty dove]

@visual sundial sorry unrelated, but what band are you pictured with in your avatar?

[visual sundial]

Hanabie

[haughty dove]

I thought so!

I saw them in Connecticut last(?) year, and I’m seeing them again in March for my birthday.

[visual sundial]

Yeah I went to a meet and greet last November, got a signed poster too 🙂

Enterprise Earth is supporting their US tour which sounds epic

[burnt matrix]

Sega Rally > NiGHTs

I have the courage to say it!!

[haughty dove]

Not sure if I’ve played Sega rally outside of arcade. Just know I played the two Daytonas on saturn.

[burnt matrix]

One game is a beloved classic and the other game was made by a criminal who’s locked behind bars. You be the judge!!!!

[wide glacier]

don't really care for either saturn version of daytona honestly. sega rally stomps them both

[visual sundial]

Sega Rally is the best Saturn racer even though Daytona is the better game, imo

Both Daytona ports are fundamentally flawed for very different reasons

[haughty dove]

Naoto Oshima isn’t behind bars, lol. And if you look at his dev history, he was clearly the creative force behind Nights, not Naka the Programming Prodigy.

Can’t trust those filthy programmers… glares daggers at John Carmack

[burnt matrix]

They’re coming for him next after Balan Wonderwall!!

[haughty dove]

XD

God I wanted to like that game, but the demo was just a terrible impression. Idk. Maybe I’ll buy it next time it goes on sale for 5 bucks again.

[burnt matrix]

It offends on every level that I had to own it

I bought it day one

[visual sundial]

It's funny how everyone who has worked with Yuji Naka develops an intense dislike for him, lol

Mark Cerny is too polite to say it, but he clearly hates Yuji Naka too

Reading interviews about when they worked together, what Cerny doesn't say speaks volumes lol

[haughty dove]

Balan reminds me of Wario World, in that it feels like a game that was developed for the fifth generation but in only the bad ways.

[visual sundial]

Yuji Naka's commitment to one button design is commendable in a sense, but only if it works

[glossy steppe]

Wow, that game made by a hardened criminal sounds badass!

[left hollow]

I liked wario world

[burnt matrix]

No, you’re not supposed to react that way!

[glossy steppe]

https://tenor.com/view/reverse-card-uno-uno-cards-gif-13032597

[haughty dove]

@left hollow I love the Wario Land games and I love Treasure and I love the Gamecube and I’ve yet to complete the second level of Wario World even once before I get bored.

I’m trying again now that it is out on the virtual console, but it’s just so… Wario World.

[left hollow]

I got all the treasures in wario world so I could use the gba link cable to play wario ware mini games

When I was like 7 and didn't have warioware

[haughty dove]

Nice lol

I had a demo disc that let you download a special demo for WarioWare on GBA. It was the first world of the game, except if you survived long enough, the text and images of the microgames would change to advertise the full release.

[left hollow]

That's how they get yea and not gonna lie that's kinda neat, I didn't know about that

[glossy steppe]

And when it doesn't work you get..... Box Fox.

Video Description: "Here is the ability Box Fox, which transforms you into a box 'when it feels like it'"

(So in case it's not clear, your one button dosen't control when you turn into a box, it only lets you jump, the costume will randomely turn into a box on it's own)

[glossy steppe]

I remember that, it was from a demo disk? Could have sworn it was from a kiosk or something. Though it being a demo disk makes sense since it would need to link to your GBA

[burnt matrix]

This is so terrible that I’m in awe

See why I had to buy the game?

I must study it

[glossy steppe]

... I got it too... on big sale

I still have yet to 100% it, but I beat it

Which... gets you a.. not bad, more like the "ok" ending

Rerez had a good review of it, you need to 100% a world to even know what the victory song after every world is even saying, and even then the story is pretty much not explained at all, they expected you to buy the book (Yes there is a novel, they fully expected it to become a big hit and spawn a new multimedia franchise) to know what is going on

You know, like Concord XD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwTzSmxhEGc

Also that video I posted, where you can find the costume right on top of a hill over a pit, a costume that turns into a box "when it feels like it" that slides down hills? That's the first and IIRC only place to find that costume! They placed a costume that turns into a slidy death trap... on top of a slidy hill!

Hell, the game isn't even technically "one button", the shoulder buttons switch between costumes

... but everything else is A. SINGLE. BUTTON! Even the menues, there is no back/cancel button for the menus! Even the menus are one button!!!

It feels like a game that would be made as a PARODY of one-button design

[wide glacier]

bro thought he was making the next kirby air ride

[next bronze]

funny that actually got made, with Sakurai back at the helm.

[radiant karma]

I still prefer the first version of Daytona to the upgraded one. Graphics might not have held up today but the gameplay is the same as the arcade. Sega rally is great but I still love Daytona. Might be my top game ever on Saturn.

[visual sundial]

Yeah it's the better version. CCE is a good racer on its own terms, but it's not Daytona

I prefer Saturn Daytona even over the Dreamcast one, which I didn't really like aesthetically or sonically

Only really the PS360 version tops it

[thorn pagoda]

there's a romhack for the dreamcast version that restores some of the arcade sounds

[visual sundial]

The handling also feels off to me. I can enjoy CCE because it feels like a totally different game that happens to be called Daytona, but the Dreamcast version feels more like an effort to replicate the arcade but falling short

[thorn pagoda]

its much better with a wheel than a pad but yeah

[jagged spire]

I get your love for these ports, but for me it's not a proper Sega racer experience if there's no force feedback 🙁

[thorn pagoda]

yeah i think the xbla one has FF

[burnt matrix]

I can’t play the original Saturn Daytona, the graphics are barely keeping it together lol

But maybe I should try again!

[wide glacier]

the graphics look like they're having trouble keeping themselves together

[visual sundial]

It's rough for sure, hardly compared well against Ridge Racer on PS1 even if I think Daytona is the better game

[haughty dove]

Crying in the club because I have to redownload Nights into Dreams on my PS3 with the slowest internet connection ever just to play Nights with analog control on CRT.

[visual sundial]

It's always annoyed me that the PS360/PC version of Christmas Nights doesn't include the Christmas presents. It's because it's ported from the PS2 version that also does not have these

[wise brook]

now that’s a fan project i’d wanna see

some kinda fusion between a decomp and hack to add the christmas assets in

[wise brook]

does this go into the publisher chicanery? Naka alleged SE caused a lot of problems

[visual sundial]

Naka does throw his toys out the pram when he can’t get his own way though so who knows

[wise brook]

and SE is a shit ass company ran by generational goobers

studio releases game not called FF
“this failed to meet our ridiculous expectations”

[glossy steppe]

I don't fully remember that episode but I don't think they did. Sometimes they really delve deep into the development of a game they review (Such as Ninjabread Man) but I don't recall if they did for Balan, I think they mostly just talked about the game.

[winter phoenix]

Have you ever wished you could play Sonic R like a regular platformer, finding all the Chaos Emeralds and Sonic tokens at your leisure? Now you can with Bo Bayles' new Sonic R&R mod! Check it out:

https://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2026/01/26/sonic-r-the-rr-mod/

[winter phoenix]

They considered a rumble attachment, a motion-sensing attachment and a light gun attachment https://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2022/06/03/interview-kenji-tosaki-talks-saturn-dreamcast-peripheral-design/

[glossy steppe]

I remember their plan for a sequel to NiGHTS was "Air NiGHTS" where you just sort of... move the controller in 3d space and Nights moves like that, but they didn't have the tech. Likely why the (lame) sequel was on Wii

[winter phoenix]

yes, he mentions experimenting with the gyro prototype with Nights in the interview. he also mentions using the gyro for racing games.

[glossy steppe]

No wonder SEGA did poorly, greasy meat cut into thin strips is a very poor choice for a motion sensing controller

[icy escarp]

Does anyone else have an issue with panzer dragoon saga? The title screen has pixel errors all over it, and when I play the game, it’s almost like there’s a pixel overlay of this garbage over the entire screen. I’m using the latest update from today in my own rip of the game and I’ve also used an online version and get the same problem. I’m using two ram sticks also.

[celest lake]

what kind of stack do you have? de10? qmtech? retroremake?

[icy escarp]

De10!

[celest lake]

hmm

and just doing HDMI out into the tv? or are you going through a scaler, etc

[icy escarp]

Direct HDMI

Panzer Dragoon 2 works perfect.

I’m using the retro castle dual dram I/O I’m new to this but everything else seems to work

[celest lake]

lemme see if I can reproduce

are you on the stable core or the unstable? (What is the date on the core)

[icy escarp]

It happens on disc one on the title screen. It produces strange, visual artifacts that seem to be pixel patterns and during gameplay it does the same thing.

I’m not sure how to check that. I will find out though I use the update all feature and use whatever core comes across with that, but I will boot it up and see what I can find.

[celest lake]

oh, it's listed next to the core in the osd (before you select it)

does the corruption look like this: https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10104

[wise brook]

looks like you’ve got the fundamentals down, but you’ll have to manually add the Dual SDRAM core to make the most of your setup.

[icy escarp]

I did not know this!

[wise brook]

i have a way of sensing these things

it’s cool, everyone is new once and there’s a lot to learn

[icy escarp]

I just took apart my mister to see the brand of the Io board and put in my Bluetooth and keyboard and controller into different ports now all the graphic problems are gone

It seems that whatever I had in a certain port was causing graphical issues because now it’s working perfect

[celest lake]

probably something just needed to be reseated

glad it was an easy fix 🙂

[icy escarp]

I haven’t been able to play this game in over what seems to be 15 years. I can’t wait.

[celest lake]

now, jesus christ, tuck those cords behind something. We aren't animals here

[icy escarp]

I knew someone was gonna say something I will

[celest lake]

It's a good one. I am in the middle of a playthrough myself

[icy escarp]

Yeah, I beat it as a kid, but I can’t remember hardly anything about it so I can’t wait to play it

[visual sundial]

I’m on disc 3 myself. First time playing through since 1999

[wise brook]

check the spec of your power supply too if you get weird crashes and such. something are under-amped

[icy escarp]

Good luck Jake make the empire suffer!

[icy escarp]

I’m using my old 5 V five amp when I have with a USB-C adapter, but I have a new one coming this week

[wise brook]

fun fact, the main influence for my D&D world is PDS

[icy escarp]

I always love the setting

[visual sundial]

It still feels fresh because there’s not really any other RPG like it

[wise brook]

New Vegas

closest i can come

[icy escarp]

Thank you you guys for the help! I better turn it off and go back to work.

[graceful horizon]

yeah, the game is a highlight for me last year

played it all on this core

single sdram too

I went back to up those numbers lol

get a run of panzer dragoon zwei while at it too

[sharp forum]

I was devastated when I read that the spiritual closeness points were about how much you pet the dragon and mine was so low

[graceful horizon]

smiling does nothing?

oh I see, petting gives the most

10 pets give you 40

[sharp forum]

Oof yeah it was only 23

[graceful horizon]

those are better stats than mine dude

I only went back to do the extra content after the credits

[glossy steppe]

It needs save data from 2 to get everything dosen't it?

[graceful horizon]

I think so yeah

but the zwei data gives you one extra that can be done without

zwei is offically my favorite saturn game though so better play it

[haughty dove]

You can per the dragon?

I beat the game once but I don’t think I fully understood it.

Liked the first one slightly more.

[graceful horizon]

1 vs 2?

you can pet the dragon in saga

in the camp

I loved my run of 1 and 2 but 2 is better in every way. the routing is really fun in it too with the dragon changing forms depending on which path you take

it's competeing with sf64 for my favorite rail shooter

[burnt matrix]

Anyone call this console the Segsa?

[haughty dove]

Oh, I thought y’all were talking about Zwei.

[graceful horizon]

zwei has dragon evolution through routing

[haughty dove]

Zwei has a lot more content but also a lot more dead air. I hate having to play the prologue stage every time I start it up, that level is just garbage outside of the first time spectacle of it all.

[graceful horizon]

eh still fun all 4 times in a row I ran it