Sony PlayStation

[desert otter]

No... He's not gonna make the Jaguar core.

[chilly kraken]

No, seems like maybe the GBA core

[desert otter]

Don't we already have one?

[chilly kraken]

#1046941428758102086 message

[scenic ledge]

I changed my mind. I tested the new Bob and I want to stress that I would prefer to keep the old Bob as an alternative.

The new Bob is real deinterlacing. The old Bob is just making a 240p low-rez progressive picture out of the interlaced data. Worthwhile for those who love the retro look with sxanlines.

Having seen the new Bob in action I would prefer to omit "Weave" since that is neither proper deinterlacing nor is it a pleasant stable picture.

[tropic stratus]

This jittering is too much for me, I will always use weave, so no 🙂

we should keep all 3

[bitter lintel]

bob balaban

as an alternative

[timber veldt]

I prefer weave over bob

[desert otter]

I have a CRT so it doesn't matter to me

But in regards to deinterlacing I like whatever my PS3 does to DVDs

[somber steppe]

Motion adaptive is the future.

[scenic ledge]

Don't you get these motion artefacts with Weave? Showing scanline-like artefacts just in parts of the picture when there is fast motion. Not questioning your taste but wondering if those artefacts can possibly be suppressed with some setting.

[void scroll]

It depends what games you are playing. If you are playing an rpg with 480i menus, weave is really best. You wouldn't gain much with motion adaptive as there is not really motion there. If you are playing a 480i fighting game, action game with lots of movement, then Bob is better, as you would get heavy combing otherwise, enough to be distracting. Motion adaptive would be even better as it interpolates when in motion and uses weave when not, but we know it is impossible on mister now.

My issue with the old implementation of bob is that the image is too soft compared to the new one. But as Robert said, we might just keep the 3 options.

One alternate method which works quite well is CRT simulation, but I have no idea if it could be possible on mister. Doesn't really look like much processing is needed.

[serene nebula]

Weave is best for 2D, Bob is best for 3D

[void scroll]

Having said all that. I find the new bob a good all around deinterlacing option. That would be my default on all supported cores as even in 480i menus, it doesn't really look that bad. Not perfect menus like weave but very acceptable.

[manic citrus]

with how 'crt simulate' would be done it would suffer the same problem as enabling scandoubler scanlines and then feeding it to the scaler

the scanlines get mangled by the scaler and kinda look weird. it gets better the more resolution you have

[void scroll]

I would specify 2D menus, as 2D games with movement still show bad combing (eg Sonic 2 multiplayer mode). We need bob implemented on that core just for that one game 🤣

[void scroll]

Thanks for the info on CRT simulation. So the new bob and weave are the best deinterlacing options we can get with the current mister hardware. Fine by me though. Toggling manually depending on game played is a good tradeoff.

[manic citrus]

if you want to see what I mean, run a core that supports the scandoubler, enable scanline effect of like 50 or 75%. run vscale_mode=0 and then toggle the in-core setting for integer scaling

[serene nebula]

Ohhh, thanks for clarifying!

[tropic stratus]

Weave has artifacts only for movement, Bob is shaking the whole image without ever stopping. overall I prefer weave clearly.
For fast paced games I just use the 480p hack, e.g. the Ehrgeiz RPG mode or internal section

[void scroll]

Is there a way to enable vertical crop while using the 480p hack? Some games like tobal have garbage pixels that need cropping.

[bitter lintel]

doesn't the ps1digital kit have some kind of deinterlacing thing mister can't do?

like a BETTER bob balaban or some shit

[void scroll]

Same as the ps core, it supports bob and weave.

[bitter lintel]

i know. i just thought it had some other option but i can't recall.

"motion adaptive"

[void scroll]

Yeah, motion adaptive is not possible on current hardware.

[tropic stratus]

wouldn't be difficult to do, just make the lines outside the crop area black, but currently it's not implemented

wait, even easier: report different resolution to scaler, it's framebuffer mode anyway

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/PSX_MiSTer/blob/main/PSX.sv#L205
Instead of displayheight there could be a fixed value of e.g. 224 when cropping is on. Some very basic verilog stuff, maybe even AI can do that

[abstract drift]

ps1digital has motion adaptive and crt simulation modes too these days

[scenic ledge]

I guess that it looks closer to a real CRT than the other options before. The jitter would be there on an average TV set. I guess that we have to really applaud zakk. The question remains: which other ports could profit from deinterlacing. Saturn? N64? Any other? Arcade cores? Besides of course MeganDrive for Sonic 2 and possibly (future) homebrews.

[sinful bloom]

PS3 with its POPS is actually the worst deinterlacer for PS1 games specifically, it's ripply grated shit in motion (Tekken 3 & Bubsy 3D

[scenic ledge]

Tekken 3 is the GOAT 😉

Bubsy.... Not so. Anyway: A magnificent task what zakk pulled off.

[void scroll]

SNES has some games that use 448i, but I think they are all menus, so bob is not really needed there. 3DO outputs all games as 480i so maybe the future core would need it.

[chilly kraken]

hand rolled in the suburbs of chicago

[spring elk]

Primo

[grand sage]

don't early models of 3DO have a switch to toggle between 240p and 480i output

[spring elk]

Japanese models.

[void scroll]

Tried this build but havent noticed any changes, what is different?

[chilly kraken]

Should be cropping the top of tobal with the 480p hack

[void scroll]

Mine still shows the top garbage pixels

[chilly kraken]

Weird. They were completely gone for me

so it seems to fix it with direct video for some reason, but it doesn't fit it on normal HDMI

[void scroll]

Maybe it is my setup, just noticed 480p hack is broken for me. Makes no difference being on and off.

[chilly kraken]

no, im seeing it on normal HDMI. but when I put it through my tink, the updated rbf gets rid of the junk

[tawny palm]

So when was the new bob added here? Is it in a test build or was it added a long time ago to the stable build? Never actually kept up with this one.

[void scroll]

#1046940919607345272 message

[void scroll]

The 480p hack does not work for me using your build, it does not enable. Just compared it to the latest stable.

[chilly kraken]

definitely enabled for me. i only get the bugged menu when its on

(bottom video is the stable core)

[void scroll]

I still prefer new bob as a way to play artifact free, so will just keep that as a default.

[serene nebula]

Did you have a meeting with the bobs?

[chilly kraken]

Mike is in the pocket of big bob

[serene nebula]

https://youtu.be/BTdOHBIppx8

[tawny palm]

Just tested the new bob, and yeah it's better than the old one for sure. Still see the vertical jumping up and down thing on screen. Just not as bad as the old one. I always wonder if that's bad for OLED screens though. Would love to see the option on the Saturn core, since there are more games on that platform that I care about with 480i.

[abstract drift]

oled screens dont usually mind flickering images, some IPS screens will get a sort of temporary burn in from it though

[desert otter]

Yeah, bobbing around on OLED is actually a good thing. It's what most OLEDs do themselves to prevent burn in. They call it pixel shifting.

[tawny palm]

Ah, that's good to know.

But yeah, Saturn core is where I really want that feature. There are so many games on Saturn that use 480i that I love. And those games feel unplayable currently on the core unless you're using a CRT.

[silent bridge]

Is there a list of 480i only games then? And is it preference only when it comes to weave or bob?

[desert otter]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UgysgrgqbiIlyHIiwCxVoWMu1bwgO2OBlDO1ORpsi78/edit#gid=0

Oh, you're asking about Saturn games

[scenic ledge]

Funny. That sounds like the old Bob was broken for me. Old Bob shows a stable (progressive feeling) picture without wiggle/jitter at all. But just the odd (or even fields?) fields with scanlines between them. I can take a photo in the evening.

[manic citrus]

what vertical filter do you have set, if any?

[tawny palm]

Not off the top of my head, but most of the 3D fighting games, plus stuff like Shienryu and DecAthlete.

Mostly it's games like Virtua Fighter 2, Fighting Vipers, and Fighters Mega Mix. I love the Sega 3D fighting games. Saturn Dead or Alive is also better than the PS1 version in my opinion.

[scenic ledge]

General Hardware - 80s Horizontal TV. Something like that. Mostly my Tekken 3 (during fights) observations because that is my go-to interlaced game.

[manic citrus]

tekken 3 isn't as bad as some games + your filter hides a bit of it

[manic citrus]

also I think your real issue is that interlaced content forces the vertical filter to be the same as horizontal

[scenic ledge]

Well, Bob-New shows a slightly jittery image without any scanlines, how it is probably supposed to look. With the same filter on. Thus it is not an issue but rather a feature. To have a choice between 480i deinterlaced look (Bob new) and a more retro 240p look (Bob old).

[manic citrus]

yeah, go look at something like DoA with "old" bob and no filters. the UI is...yeah

[void scroll]

Will you do a PR with the new bob changes? Seems to me like a no brainier for all cores with 480i output.

[manic citrus]

I sent the PR to the framework template, when that goes through I can update cores

[serene nebula]

pins updated

[kindred bane]

So uh, slightly ot BUT…can we say revolt (especially on 2x) is best played as ps1 version? I think it beat n64, but what about on dreamcast? And i think it is also on current gen? That any good?

[scenic ledge]

I guess that has to be researched on a game by game basis. A higher gen port can be buggy, have bad remixed sound, have a bad emulation instead of a direct port, removed TATE options etc.

In the case of revolt I didn't research the Dreamcast option because there is no mister core for Dreamcast (go, @pearl sinew , go 😉 )

But rule of thumb: games on higher end consoles have mostly better graphics.

[waxen elk]

RVGL is probably still the best way to play revolt

Mapping it so left stick goes forward and back and right stick steers left and right also feels pretty good (especially with how twitchy the game is) and mimics a real RC controller.

[kindred bane]

Hmm i do prefer most dc options to their n64 variants. But in this case i do recall the dc version having issues. Just no idea what they were (or that I’m misremembering 😅) . Anyways appreciate the reply!

Rvgl sound great too!

[abstract drift]

from memory - the dreamcast version has a completely unlocked framerate, it varies from 30 to 60 though and that feels pretty bad

especially since its double-buffered vsync

[desert otter]

ye but, it has fancy shiny graphics 🙃

[shut escarp]

Taranis rules

[kindred bane]

Gameplay over gfx, but i have to admit that when possible i do enjoy them shiny gfx!

[timber flint]

Gameplay is king!

[serene nebula]

New video from Sean Swanson - #share-media message

[runic edge]

Hot air balloons are so chill...

Except for that one scene in that film Enduring Love, but apart from that

Very chilled out and peaceful 😌

[somber steppe]

Actually they work by being the opposite of chill. It's hot air that makes them float.

[runic edge]

You win this round...

[somber steppe]

We all won. Knowledge.

[spring elk]

Robby sure loves living on the edge with all these train and hot air balloon simulators.
Quite the adrenaline junkie we have here.

[final salmon]

Kaze no Notam is great. Just go in expecting to learn why flying hot air balloons is hard

[manic citrus]

choo choo

[spring elk]

Why does a train have a steering wheel? 🤔

Oh... that's for airplanes. 🤦‍♂️ 🤣

[manic citrus]

multi-track drifting

[chilly kraken]

Shinkansen Drift

[chilly kraken]

The only solution to the train problem

[tender tartan]

There’s a PS2 game for that 🙂 Had a lot of fun with this one actually https://youtu.be/o52tx9pTCwU?si=1W1F-YNQ69YA4EBu

[serene nebula]

YEAAAAAAHHH

I forgot to look for that game when I was in Japan ☹️

[bitter lintel]

holy shit, what is that. ridge racer train edition

why does that exist

[bright yacht]

OMG. This is densha de go on drugs. And I need that.

[tender tartan]

Stone cold PS2 stoner years classic

[dark mountain]

Multitrack drifting, engage!

[desert otter]

That just makes me think of the train drifting on ice scene in Polar Express

[kind ravine]

Came out in Europe as xtreme express. 60hz vs English: fight!

[fallen vessel]

this is an old post but ehh thats why im not pinging it.
all xbox console names are chesy marketing slogans

xbox series' one is kinda shaky though

Direct X(box), Xbox 360 a revolution in gameing, Xbox one the all in one device, a member of the xbox series of consoles

[remote flame]

Does the PSX core work with fastforward in some titles? Specifically about to embark on FFVIII and am wavering between real hardware and Duckstation but if the mister core can do it that would be best of both worlds

[timber flint]

I wasn't aware of there being a fast forward on any MiSTEr core but I could be wrong

[river otter]

The GB & GBA cores have fast forward

That said FF isn't in the list of features of the PSX core https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/PSX_MiSTer?tab=readme-ov-file#features

[manic citrus]

it has fast forward

you can't use it if you're using vsync_adjust=2, I think

[ivory verge]

Works with vsync 0 only

[manic citrus]

works with 1 for me too

[timber flint]

Ah that's pretty cool

[ivory verge]

ok , I suggested this post #1046940919607345272 message , I do not use this option

[tropic stratus]

i would think 1 works but looses sync every time you enter/leave FF

you have to leave it sometimes, e.g. when FMVs play, as there is no automatic and it kind of messes up the timing. Didn't crash for me yet, but i wouldn't trust it being on when FMVs play

unlike GB and GBA, FF is a timing hack on PSX, emulating 96hz video out instead of 60hz, so the game has less CPU cycles per frame to work with

[ivory verge]

Thanks for the explanation!

[sinful bloom]

I wouldn't grind in FFVIII at all (enemies scale with Squall) and drawing every spell is a waste of time if you can just play Triple Triad instead and meld cards into powerful spells for junctions (or just don't)

The only time I WOULD fast forward would be in trying to draw rare TT cards

[bitter lintel]

or just don't play the game

now you're a winner

[frail storm]

Totally agree. 7 was great, 9 was awesome. 8 was... well... it was released.

[bitter lintel]

i actually played to the beginning of disc 4 at release. i then tried to play it again like five times through the years

[sinful bloom]

FFVIII is my first jrpg and I love it's stupid ass in my heart

[frail storm]

I can see why 🙂
But I don't think it's a good RPG. I also love MrNutz for SNES but.. well, it's not a great game.

[remote flame]

Thanks yall, @tropic stratus

I'm not a Grinder or a 100% er but I'd call myself a treasure hunter. That is I go out of my way to collect cool/good gear pieces.

[feral swift]

I just recently bought a mint PSone console in box for the sole reason of researching and developing a matching audio filter for the Mister. It still had the warranty sticker applied that covers one of the bottom screws, however when I took it apart I got to see this. Does anyone here know what kind of mod this could be?

[dusky ore]

That 8-pin chip, can you slide the plastic away from it?

Knowing the markings on that chip would help

[feral swift]

I don't know, I already reassembled it for now. What do you think it is? I can open it up later again to check.

[dusky ore]

It could be an MM3 or PSNee, NTSC?

MM3 uses a PIC, PSNee can use an ATtiny

[feral swift]

It's a PAL console.

So it would be basically some kind of modchip to allow the console to play home burnt cds? If so, would it happen to have the possibility of having any effects on the audio output in any way?

[serene nebula]

They didn’t try selling it to you as new, right?

[feral swift]

Nope

[serene nebula]

Ok good!

[feral swift]

Since I realized that EverDrives vary in how they work from real cartridges, in some case even ending up causing the system to run at noticeably higher temperatures, I try to avoid any 3rd party devices and mods across all console systems entirely wherever possible, to prevent these from having any possible impacts that may not be well understood from changing or falsifying my findings and test results.

I'll most likely just end up getting whatever this is removed just to be on the safe side.

[serene nebula]

smart 🍻

[dusky ore]

The way these chips typically work is to monitor the data stream, inject the "wobble data" (which encodes e.g. the string SLUS), and then sleep

PAL requires some kind of hook into the BIOS IIRC, which is why there's wires to IC102

[remote flame]

Standard mm3/12c508 mod

[feral swift]

Thanks, I appreciate the info!

[tawny palm]

So you're a thief!

[remote flame]

All of my backups are personal dumps of physical media

[tawny palm]

That's what all treasure hunters say!

[final salmon]

Can't believe I check in to see FFVIII slander in here!

[scenic ledge]

I love FF8 as much as FF7. It has the most adorable women in video gaming history.

[serene nebula]

I honestly tried to like it

[tawny palm]

I love Final Fantasy VIII. I enjoy how easy it is to break the game with the junction system. Probably the easiest game in the series to make your party into super heroes.

But FF9 is still the king of the PS1 trilogy!

[serene nebula]

Like I don’t want to shit on it because at the end of the day it’s one less game I enjoy and that’s always a losing position lol

[final salmon]

If you've any experience with FF8, still gotta recommend ff8isthe.best
Keeping the fun of random small internet site alive (by the VGHF's historian to boot)

[serene nebula]

It was such a massive graphical leap forward from 7. The consistent art style, more adult story, and extremely well done presentation was pretty awe inspiring to me as a kid.

I didn’t really click at all with the story or gameplay but holy shit did Square absolutely deliver on making that game feel cinematic and top tier entertainment.

[mortal oracle]

I really need to finish 8. It just starts sooooo slow

7 has such a great start, it really pumps you up to keep going

Bombing a reactor feels a bit more “adult” than being a kid at a school

[mortal oracle]

Such a great leap forward in graphical quality

[sinful bloom]

as a kid that never saw any other FF before the world in it was mind blowing

nowadays its just funny fantasyland with modernish tech and a random jetsons hyper futuristic utopia in the middle of it

[serene nebula]

Interesting, swapping between digital and analog on the PAL game Hard Boiled caused the screen to black out. Game was still running, whenever you paused you’d see the frozen state of the world, but unpausing it would go back to a black screen.

Guess I won’t be doing that again, lol.

I can’t repro it.

[mortal oracle]

It’s a MiSTery?

[red lodge]

I have a particular idea for a controller setup. Not sure if it's possible.

The other day, I got a Namco G-con 45 (Guncon).

It works seemingly flawlessly with my SNAC adapter. No issues there.

The only thing is the pedal on a Time Crisis machine has been replaced with a button on the side of the gun, which I'm not fond of.

What I'd like to do is use a USB foot pedal as an equivalent for the Guncon's 'A' button (used as the pedal input on Time Crisis' PS1 port), while also using the Guncon via SNAC.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Upgraded-iKKEGOL-Optical-Computer-Keyboard/dp/B08MC6JMYV

Something like this, for example.

Is this possible?

[shut escarp]

It works

Time crisis will read any face button press on the P2 controller Duck

[serene nebula]

Yeah I gotta pick one up again to see what I was doing wrong last time

[shut escarp]

@red lodge

SNAC guncon1 in P1, usb ‘controller’ mapped to X button on P2

The USB one from Amazon you posted will work in the same manner, other folks have used them as such in here

[red lodge]

Amazing! Thank you!

[sinful bloom]

Can someone explain what "Widescreen Hack" does?

All it seems to do is stretch any 3d game like it's 16:9 aspect ratio stretch once again

Are there patched games that use anamorphic widescreening?

[tulip moat]

Forces games to render in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

[sinful bloom]

It doesn't?

Oh

Now I get it

Maybe I should find a 16:9 CRT

[serene nebula]

Do take not that it only works well for fully polygonal games as it adjusts the camera's view frustum to show more of the in-game scene.

Limitations of the Widescreen options:

• Games that have aggressive polygon clipping, such as Crash Bandicoot, will showcase polygon removal outside the standard 4:3 area
• Games that utilize pre-rendered backgrounds will stretch the 2D background but the gameplay area still remains in the standard 4:3 area producing a huge visual mis-match
• Any 2D elements will be stretched or be shifted around to unexpected locations depending on whether the individual HUD widgets have a concept of screen location
• Games that are fully 2D will just stretch the entire image to fit your selected widescreen option
• Any FMV will be stretched to it your selected widescreen option

[sinful bloom]

Yeah it's not too different from how duck does it

[serene nebula]

We did get a few false bug reports when that option initially went live. People thought Crash Bandicoot was completely broken lol.

[sinful bloom]

Actually

Does it crash Silent Hill?

(when you meet the crazy woman in the church)

[serene nebula]

[tawny palm]

Also keep in mind that it's anamorphic widescreen, so it stretches the pixels to create the effect. It's not actually adding pixels to the sides of the screen to create the image. So basically the pixel density is worse, making for a less detailed image. It's why I personally don't use the feature. Anamorphic widescreen works better with 480 resolution games from the GCN/PS2 era, because it's less noticeable with smaller pixels. But 240 resolution games are already pretty darn chunky looking as is, so stretching that image out makes for even more...chunk. Glad that the option is there though for those that enjoy it! But not for me personally.

[remote flame]

I just started it!

It's like a FFX Demake for the PSX

I spent 1 hour getting to triple triad and then spent 2 hours grinding out a pool of cards to break it until teir 6 starts hitting the table

[tropic stratus]

some games render with 384, 512 or 640 pixel width, then it's more useful. E.g. Revolt is great with it. It renders 640x240.

[kindred bane]

The whole dual vs single memory situation is still the same as it always was right. Dual is more accurate with sound but near impossible to notice in use? Tried looking for info in the pins and on the github, but couldn’t find it. Then again my google fu as as weak as my kung fu 😅

[ivory verge]

Let me assure you that using the PSX core dualsdram has no noticeable benefits

[kindred bane]

Oh i am very happy with my single setup 😁. And i have real playstations as back up! But was talking about benefits of dual. Ps1 is factually better (but not noticeable for most if not all humans) and there is the jag core. Maybe Saturn for some games (edge cases?)….and by extension STV?

[deft sphinx]

Do you have a digital or analogue iO board?

If someone has a digital one and has the spare ram slot B I think you may as well get one of those $15-20 128MB ram sticks that Taki sells at this point. It is a cheap upgrade.

[kindred bane]

Yeah that was exactly my recommendation to the guy asking about it. I indeed have a analogue io. But with my (vga) crt monitor dying i now mostly play via hdmi. I also have a scart cable for my mister so i can play on my crt tv. Might do that for tate gaming.

[serene nebula]

It’s caused more confusion than benefit so we’re not pinning it.

[somber steppe]

I'm still happy that dual ram exists because it makes zakk happy. 😋

[shut escarp]

It's literally like 2-3 -nanoseconds- of audio latency.

It's not even 'near impossible' its outright impossible.

there is no material benefit to dual ram for PSX core

[serene nebula]

@kindred bane I’d argue it’s inferior because of the need for having dual ram in order to utilize something that has zero benefit.

[somber steppe]

The benefit is the prestige

[shut escarp]

the prestige of making it a big headache to play on tubes hard pass!

[somber steppe]

Oh I just play through my rt4k...

[kindred bane]

Well i figured that someone out there could possibly notice. But when you put it like that 😅. Btw same Kajoq who was on a jmcrofts vid (vampire saviour or so? I know you like fighters so my guess was that it probably is.

[shut escarp]

lol yeah

we actually wound up commentating a pool of Vsav at Frosty last month

[kindred bane]

Agree for ps1. For jag wel, i gues bigpemu is very nice as well 😄

[kindred bane]

Nice!

[serene nebula]

Any currently in development cores like Jaguar and Saturn may not end up with any dual ram benefits by the end.

[somber steppe]

I'd be suprised if Saturn Grandia works for everyone with single ram at this point. Pleasantly surprised of course.

[chilly kraken]

I think robby is living on the "on an infinite timeline" scale for this. It just takes a breakthrough and a dev interested in finding it.

[serene nebula]

💯

[kindred bane]

Will try that out! Def had issues with sega rally sound dropping off at first which meant i was not fortunate in the ram lottery. Works great now though. Err but we are in psx…

[serene nebula]

💯

[crisp ether]

the nanosecond(s) of audio delay under rare circumstances thing is less notable to me than possible GPU variance due to audio using DDR3 in the single RAM core - #1046940919607345272 message
still quite marginal, but i'd say that's more significant than the audio thing which really honestly is irrelevant

and to be clear, not "better", but it's at least something variant to play with, might have some small impacts in a few games

you won't even perceive the audio stuff

[chilly kraken]

Robert also said that the dual ram core may actually be less accurate because it runs too fast iirc

[tropic stratus]

VRAM in general is too fast on average, but mostly not important as 99% of all games have the GPU waiting for CPU anyway.

[tawny palm]

He's going to keep doing this infinitely isn't he...

[chilly kraken]

he just really liked what I had to say

don’t be jealous

[minor spruce]

So just a question but am I correct to assume that you can use SNAC for memory card and still use Bluetooth controllers?

[minor spruce]

mmm i guess not... once you set snac it means both controller and memcard are set...

[tropic stratus]

you can use real controller with virtual memcard, but not virtual controller with real memcard. (well it would be possible but as noone ever wanted that it's not an option currently)
You could however use a real memcard in slot 2 and virtual controller in slot 1 if the game supports or copy the data using the bios screen

[minor spruce]

Yea saw that as potentially being an option... Would be a cool feature though

Or alternatively I get one of those PS1/PS2 BT adapters lol

[shut escarp]

Yeah, unless you really need to swap the card back and forth to a real PSX frequently, i'd just load it with SNAC, copy the save to a virtual memory card, then use that + BT controller

[serene nebula]

Can also use this site to convert your save files from PS1 to MiSTer and reverse - https://savefileconverter.com

[desert otter]

There is a way to do this, it's just not the most convenient.
Simply put, you have SNAC set up with a memcard and a PS1 or PS2 controller.
Then have your BT controller.

In the OSD whenever you go to save or load, you change controller to SNAC then switch it back afterwards.

I do this with N64 in order to save games that don't have internal memory. I just open the OSD switch to "controller pak" save (or load) then swap back to SNAC again although I'm doing it in reverse to use an actual N64 controller but saving virtually, it's the same difference

[serene nebula]

Yeah, that’s what I did to get my saves off the controller pak. Used SNAC to load my game and swapped to internal saves after.

[manic dirge]

Any chance we can get someone to compile the PSX and N64 nightlies with their turbo counterparts (or just merge the turbo cores into the main cores and allow users to disable turbo themselves)?

[buoyant plinth]

Not the latter. MiSTer goes accuracy first, fun bonuses that are less compatible more manually.

[tropic stratus]

is there anything important missing?

[abstract drift]

i think there was a bugfix unreleased wasn't there?

Motor Toon Grand Prix?

not sure about n64, or maybe there's been a framework change people want? can't think what though

[mortal oracle]

Not off the top of my head

[serene nebula]

Well of course silly, frameworks aren’t worn as hats!

[mortal oracle]

That’s where I was going wrong!

[scenic reef]

unsure, but last update was just me doing the framework update here --> https://github.com/birdybro/PSX2X_MiSTer

which was quite awhile ago lemme see...

yeah motor toon grand prix fix... negcon fix, MDEC rounding

oh looks like you made a new branch, nice, didn't even notice

good i don't need that repo anymore lol

so yeah just the motor toon grand prix fix then

not sure if that's worth all the compile time lol

[serene nebula]

Yes please 🙏

FOMO

[manic citrus]

well wait until I actually integrate new interlace stuff. although I think I need to do one more template push

[silent bridge]

Since there’s talk of fixes, has anyone been able to figure out Metal Gear Solid’s codec reverb issue? 😅

[feral swift]

It's not really only in Metal Gear Solid, I can hear like an almost slapback delay type of sound coming from a hihat that creates lots of high frequency reverb on a music track in Hard Egde, which isn't there on the original console.

[chilly kraken]

have you guys tried the dual ram core? just in case

[feral swift]

I have an analog mister setup only. The mentioned issue could partially be related to an issue that I'm already looking into.

[chilly kraken]

ahh ok

I can check on the dual ram core

Easier to hear in Metal gear?

[feral swift]

Yes. Basically the sound when you scroll through the radio frequencies sounds very odd.

[chilly kraken]

ok

i doubt dual ram will make any difference, but that is technically the only benefit of the dual ram core so...

[feral swift]

It's possible that this could be the result of what is described here as a ringing issue with the Mister audio output, which could generate additional frequency content that isn't included in the actual sound.

[chilly kraken]

So this is the wrong sound?

[feral swift]

Yes, this is it.

[sinful bloom]

keep scrolling faster

and it will reverberate even more

[chilly kraken]

ahh yeah, definitely hear it there. building the dual ram core

[feral swift]

This is how it should sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT7ftd16560

[chilly kraken]

nope, on dual ram too. weird

(not that I expected any different, it’s just a weird bug)

[desert otter]

when doing dual core, you used HDMI output for audio?

@chilly kraken

[chilly kraken]

Yeah. Also tried toslink

The bugs been around since 2023 so I’m sure folks tried everything already

[tropic stratus]

the reverb logic(math) was basically from duckstation in 2021 or 22. I compared the sound samples to be bit accurate against it for the bios startup. So if that works fine on duckstation now, I would assume there must have been a fix.
If anyone wants to find out: pick a 2020 version of duckstation and check if the issue is there as well. If yes, we can probably find what the change was and maybe it's an easy fix.
Just like the motor toon fix was very simple once it was known what the issue is.
I don't have the time for such deep investigation currently myself, sorry.

[chilly kraken]

more than enough info to start looking. Thanks, Robert. We will let you know 🫡

[silent bridge]

I missed all this earlier, but, I do have time soon so, if you wanted a hand trying to test out the Duckstation versions, like a range of versions of it, let me know and I'll give it a shot 😄

It funny cuz over the years, I've heard mostly Konami games that have audio issues in emulators

[chilly kraken]

Yeah. I only did a cursory search last night but the GitHub seems to only go back to 2023? Maybe I missed something obvious.

[spring elk]

Are we just looking for changes related to reverb in spu.cpp? It goes back several years.

Or is that the wrong repository?

[chilly kraken]

No idea. I was literally searching on my phone in bed.

I’ll look more thoroughly today.

[spring elk]

If it helps, these are the commits to spu.cpp specifically mentioning reverb:

Reverb implemented on Mar 16, 2020.

Reverb registers not being saved to state fixed on Mar 22, 2020.

Various attempts to add/revert Mednafen reverb formula in Apr, 2020, with the more recent one being Apr 24, 2020.

Reverb write regression fix on May 12, 2020.

Reverb algorithm changes ported from Mednafen on Nov 14, 2020.

Reverb registers added to the debug window on Sep 1, 2021.

Reverb input muted when SPU muted on Jul 17, 2024.

Vectorize reverb resampling on Aug 31, 2024.

Hopefully that helps when choosing a build to test.

[tropic stratus]

changes to spu.cpp are the most likely to be the ones, but it could also be somewhere else.
Anyway, first I would try a very old version. Maybe this is a core specific bug that only shows in e.g. metal gear but not in bios reverb so Duckstation never had it.

[chilly kraken]

Yeah, that’s where I was looking last night. I only looked at /releases, which is what goes back to 2023 https://github.com/stenzek/duckstation/releases?page=3

[tropic stratus]

archive has some old builds, e.g.: https://archive.org/details/duckstation-latest-2020-September-22

[chilly kraken]

yup, that was the one I was looking at. I wasn’t in front of my PC at the time, so I didn’t grab it. I should have time this afternoon to do some testing

[chilly kraken]

ok, i have gone back to the january 1 2023 build and they all have the correct reverb. tracking down older builds is proving tricky. I'm trying to figure out where the bios needs to live for the one that robert posted

Working fine in a build from may 8th 2021

also seems fine in a build from dec 25th 2020

[feral swift]

Good to know

[mortal oracle]

It’sAMiSTery.gif

Thanks for looking into this though. Would be super cool to get to the bottom of it, since MGS is one of the heavy hitters

[chilly kraken]

if someone can figure out where the bios files go on that september build, I can test it

but I couldn't find a place in settings and it wasn't seeing them in the place that all the other builds were

[feral swift]

@tropic stratus I believe this audio issue could be also caused by the aliasing distortion issue in the final audio output, which would also make sense for why there is so much more low end information available when this specific sound gets played back in the Mister.

It's possible that the core itself is working correctly already, the issue could be with how the framework deals with the audio output.

[mortal oracle]

Would there be a an easy way of testing that? Like generating specific frequencies or something?

[feral swift]

I have been working on testing and understanding this issue since last summer. Check this comparison out.

Here's a sine sweep, right side shows the original sweep, the left side measurement shows the same sweep recorded through the Mister PSX core.

All the additional information visible on the left side that isn't included with the original sine sweep, is all additional frequency content created as a result of aliasing distortion. It is garbage content with no harmonic relation to the original sound, in fact having a very dissonant quality.

It's generally an issue with the Mister framework, specifically how it deals with the final audio output and managing the various sample rates that the various cores could be using.

[mortal oracle]

I’m very thankful we have smart people like you looking into this stuff. Thank you

[feral swift]

It's less noticeable when just listening to music, which will appear to have both more low end and high end frequency content, but especially sounds with lots of high frequency content, such as the radio frequency select sound in MSG, can be affected by the aliasing distortion in a much more apparent way.

[serene nebula]

I’m very thankful we have kind people thanking smart people like you looking into this stuff. Thank you and thank you.

[green oracle]

You are a legend for doing this level of analysis on the issue. 🙏

[chilly kraken]

This is wild, Bear - nice work

[mortal oracle]

Maybe it’s worth raising with sorg?

Not specifically because of the MGS sound, but he may not be aware - or it might just be a limitation

[feral swift]

Thank you. I'm fortunate enough to know more about digital audio, I'm certainly no expert, as I was getting more involved with the topic of digital emulation, specific to emulating guitar equipment in more detailed ways than what was being offered currently.

[mortal oracle]

Name checks out 😉

[feral swift]

I have checked with Sorg about it very early, and also with Soltan_G42, who both created the current system.

[mortal oracle]

I’ll be quiet - since you’re clearly on top of things 😄

I don’t know how the groovy mister/mister cast thing works, but is it possible to route duckstation audio through the MiSTer somehow? That could at least check this specific sound effect

(The quiet didn’t last long)

[serene nebula]

“I’m certainly no expert”
Figures out why MiSTer audio is off.

Yeah ok my dude lmao. You’re an expert!

A beautiful shining beacon of expert-ness!

[feral swift]

The good thing is that despite this issue being very seemingly complex, the solution is or should be rather easy. FPGAzumSpass has been supporting me all the way through ever since I started getting involved with the Mister audio and audio filter development, and when he has some more time he'll be working on replacing parts of the framework with new code to get the solution implemented.

[mortal oracle]

Very complex -> Robert working on it -> “easy solution”

Yep, checks out

[feral swift]

Absolutely haha

[chilly kraken]

1 new framework by christmas

[feral swift]

Unfortunately my coding skills are fairly limited, or I would at least attempt to do it myself.

This is also the same issue that presented a block towards me developing audio filters for the Mister, at which point I had to instead focus my time into getting to the ground of what was happening here.

The issue specifically is that the mister framework uses a single IIR audio filter to do two different jobs, that of an anti-aliasing filter, and to also act as the core audio filter. Unfortunately however it doesn't do either of them very effectively, which is why it requires a rework.

[tropic stratus]

Would a build without IIR filter and DC blocker for psx be enough to test it like the one for n64?

[feral swift]

It could actually provide some useful information. I also have just thought about another way to test this specific audio issue, which I'll try out over the weekend.

[scenic ledge]

Is the jtfamework affected as well? If not, comparing the code could be an option.

[silent bridge]

I’m truly in awe of what you all can do

[feral swift]

I'll try to look into it. I'm not familiar with Jotego's work at all currently.

[scenic reef]

that won't usuallyl continue ringing on it's own, that effect is a ringing sound directly related to an immediate sound before it that is of a much higher frequency than the mister audio output

[feral swift]

Interesting, the Jotego framework already uses a FIR filter with up to 127 coefficients. There's a good chance his framework is not affected by the aliasing distortion issue, especially since it also seems to filter the high frequencies past 14khz.

[feral swift]

What I think is happening here is that the reverb might produce very high frequency content exceeding the nyquist frequency, causing the aliasing foldback into the lower frequencies.

[scenic reef]

yup, like the megadrive core and afterburner II is what you are proposing

has the issue been recreated in older versions of duckstation?

[scenic reef]

he's aware

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon

you are seeing the gibbs phenomenon

if that's what is truly causing it

we have this problem with filtering cd audio as well but it's harder to notice

[feral swift]

The issue couldn't be recreated with older duckstation versions. And yes, I just saw you explain earlier that the new megadrive core uses a strong lpf to get rid of the ringing issue caused by aliasing distortion. There is a better way to fix it though.

[scenic reef]

i'm surprised this would be happening on psx though because it didn't have a TDM situation like the PSG on the megadrive where it could be outputting 200+khz frequency sample rates

well in the megadrive core the best way to fix it is to do a sorta HLE'y kinda fix like what was present in jt12

never letting the output frequency go above a certain amount without any perceptible loss

greatly expanding the taps in an FIR filter will be costly in terms of logic

sorg did the LPF filter hard cutoff, that was a temporary solution until someone else wanted to take a stab at it

it negatively impacts the audio quality however

what is the actual sample rate of that audio when this occurs?

maybe duckstation has a way to debug this and find out?

[feral swift]

As far as I understand, all that needs to be implemented is a proper anti-aliasing filter, or in other words, a brickwall filter that prevents any high frequency content from reaching past the Nyquist frequency. I have checked with FPGAzumSpass about it when I discovered this issue initially, and he seems positive that such filter can be implemented, not only not increasing the amount of resources needed but also improving the quality of the filters by switching to FIR filters, which offer the benefit of a stable phase response.

Both the PSX and N64 cores I tested create a noticeable and excessive amount of aliasing. I assume that the results with other cores where you could have sound elements creating signals with frequency content way into the region of several hundred khz would create even much worse situations.

[abstract drift]

does all this mean its less noticable if you use 96khz out?

[scenic reef]

it shouldn't be less noticeable

[feral swift]

I have already developed and partially tested such a brickwall filter. It can be made to be operational entirely outside the human hearing range, where it wouldn't be able to cause any negative impact to the audio output, and it would offer great hf reduction of up to -93db when running the Mister at an internal sampling rate of 48khz, and up to -150db when running it at a sampling rate of 96khz. It should certainly be way more than enough to reduce the aliasing distortion far enough in level to where it would not longer be perceivable by the human ear and hard to notice in any kind of tests/measurements.

[scenic reef]

yeah that would be an improvement for sure, if it can be done with minimal logic that would be even better then, sweet

[abstract drift]

damn, my decision to use 96khz remains placebo and unjustified 😛

[scenic reef]

i think the issue is probably mostly that there is no proper decimation then interpolation steps to our filtering, it's kind of a hard instant IIR that is really simple

[feral swift]

Actually it should. The current internal filter implementation reaches a higher reduction of high frequency content at 96khz internal sampling rate, as there is more range for the fairly shallow filter to reach a higher reduction in level.

[scenic reef]

i didn't notice it being much different at all in the megadrive core

still very noticeable

but that's an extreme case

[abstract drift]

can we just add 192khz out and call it a day 😄

[feral swift]

Yes, because in both cases the current filter will not be effective enough to reduce these issues, especially when we are talking outputs into the hundreds of hkz region.

[scenic reef]

this is jotego's big area of expertise, he does analog cmos stuff professionally

so his jt12_genmix module was a good example

[abstract drift]

yeah jt spends a lot of time on sound

[feral swift]

Ahh very cool! 😲

[scenic reef]

https://github.com/jotego/jt12/tree/master/hdl/mixer

can probably help see what i mean there

it's a CIC FIR filter

[abstract drift]

his stuff will be more focused on arcade machines ofc

but some of those have really insane audio stuff going on - way worse than any home console would pull

[scenic reef]

the problem is you have to tailor it to each core, so if it's something you put into the framework you would need to make it more parameterized, then each core would need to be updated with their own input and output rates calculated etc... so probably best to put it just in the psx core individually for now

[feral swift]

I think it's possible to have a working global solution for all cores, but I say this not understanding the very specifics, and of course the solution would have to be tested across all cores. The reason I say this is because even though these audio issues can manifest themselves in different ways with different cores, ultimately the issue is always the same, in that there shouldn't be any high frequency content exceeding the maximum possible high frequency as defined by the used sampling rate.

[tropic stratus]

if anyone wants to try: instead of feeding in adl and adr, feed in core_l and core_r
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/PSX_MiSTer/blob/main/sys/audio_out.v#L232-L248

this skips the dc blocker and iir

[feral swift]

The dc blocker doesn't even need to be skipped, I don't think it's necessary, skipping the IIR filter only would be enough. If we then see the issue getting even worse we know that it's related.

[scenic reef]

what i determined is that the cic FIR filter would only mask the issue to a hopefully imperceptible degree in the megadrive core. it will probably work great for cores like psx though without any issue. but yeah FIR filtering is the way to go over IIR for this. IIR just requires a lot less filter orders to achieve similar results when compared to FIR filters and that's, I assume, why it was used in the framework

and FIR filter can give you a much steeper brickwalla nd give you that better granular control though

[feral swift]

Yes. I was also running into issues with the IIR filter bugging out when developing audio filter presets, which makes it very hard to keep using it. I generally also prefer how much more smooth FIR filters sound due to their stable phase response.

[feral swift]

Is the megadrive core currently the worst offender when it comes to distortion and ringing artifacts?

It would definitely make sense to adjust the anti-aliasing filter specifically to work best under the worst case scenario.

[scenic reef]

yes, because afterburner 2 does some crazy 200+khz sample rate because the PSG had multiple channels that could all be operated independently at varying sample rates, and that game also uses it as a 1-bit DAC for samples at the same time.

so it's just slamming 200khz sample rate into the IIR filter that causes a dramatic effect

[abstract drift]

it is literally just afterburner2 that does it though right

[scenic reef]

SMS games do it too, phantasy star for example

[abstract drift]

how come this never showed up on all the fancy testing with the graphs and stuff? i've forgotten the name of it lol

[scenic reef]

the megadrive core's audio output wasn't finely tuned using mdfourier over time, and it wasn't a problem for nukey's implementation since he just outputs raw to analog audio on his device pretty much

so it doesn't need to modified to output via hdmi audio

it becomes a problem because you need to output a 48khz or 96khz signal for hdmi

[feral swift]

The specific filter that I developed should be effective enough to deal with such scenarios easily, it shouldn't actually even matter if it's 200khz+ or 200mhz+, as it would filter out anything past roughly 21khz.

[scenic reef]

nice, yeah i look forward to seeing how it goes

[abstract drift]

i love this stuff even though i usually can't hear it myself! thanks for putting in the work

[feral swift]

Here's a screenshot, I can't show how the filter continues all the way down using this measuring software, however it does so until about -93db before reaching 24khz and -150db before reaching 48khz.

It is literally like a brickwall that doesn't let anything pass that shouldn't pass, no matter how high the frequency content is. Soltan already explained to me before that with many cores there can be audio elements working at unknown sample rates, where there is potential for these elements to be outputting signals even into the megahertz range. A brickwall filter like this should take care of any such scenario effectively, and allow all cores to use a raw audio output without running into any issues.

[feral swift]

Well actually, this filter was made entirely to work outside the human hearing range, so that nobody would be able to hear it working. What it does however is to prevent the distortions and ringing artifacts from developing, so that a pure and clean audio output is possible.

[chilly kraken]

If you build it, I will test

https://tenor.com/bHmPX.gif

[feral swift]

Actually it was Artemio and his MDFourier tool which helped me to initially understand that there was an issue, which was also affecting the accuracy of my audio filter presets and even partially invalidating my development process. At first I was convinced that the issue was on my side until I started getting more involved with testing and researching the issue.

[scenic ledge]

Maybe some Jotego code can be ported or maybe even some audio subsystem can be generally moved from jtframe to main?

I don't know if there is some general filter that applies to all his cores. But I guess it would spare you a lot of time if some tested code can be moved from jtframe to main

And he has a lot of cores. Masses of them.

[feral swift]

@scenic reef check this out, I was looking into the Gibbs phenomenon to learn more about it. It was easily taken care of by applying a lpf. Chances are that the brickwall lpf implementation will take care of this issue in the megadrive core as well. My guess is that since square waves have infinite harmonics, they simply just create a lot of issues when exceeding the Nyquist frequency and causing enormous foldback distortion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s16Yiaf34JY

[scenic reef]

Yup, a brick wall should address it.

[feral swift]

I'll look into it. Chances are however that we need a custom solution anyways, since we're not just replacing or changing the existing filter, but actually need a solution where we have two dedicated FIR filters available that can be used in series. Where as one filter acts as anti-aliasing brickwall filter to effectively prevent distortions, and another filter to be used specifically as core audio filter, to re-create the frequency response of the original systems.

[scenic reef]

just for reference, in the old genesis core the IIR filter itself from the framework uses 975 registers, jt12_genmix is very efficient for a cic fir filter as it's only using 1899 registers on top of that. if you could replace the iir filter in the framework with an fir filter with a brickwall, you are probably looking at around 500-1000 more registers used, which isn't much at all in the grand scheme of things

if it gets rid of all of the cd audio issues, megadrive audio, and apparently this psx audio issue, it would be well worth it

[scenic ledge]

Having a general solution in main would probably help a lot of cores that are not in the spotlight and are not developed anymore. And whose authors were just proficient in the replication of the digital path. But lack the knowledge about sound theorems, psychoacoustics and analog audio circuitry.

[feral swift]

I was in constant communication with FGPAzumSpass about this topic and my findings, and he feels very positive that he can implement the brickwall FIR filter. Likely he will have to code a good chunk of the audio framework from ground up to be more efficient than the current code, so that it can all be possible without using additional resources.

Sorg was also very specific when I reached out to him about using a more effective filter solution, stating that any improved code can not use any additional resources, so there's also that aspect to consider.

[feral swift]

This is the ultimate goal, and I think it's extremely exciting to be working towards it. There's no reason why the Mister shouldn't have very clean and correct audio outputs across all cores.

[tropic stratus]

my plan was to write a FIR filter with e.g. 127 coefficicents that is low pass only, so it's symmetrical and can combine two coefficients to one, resulting in 64 coefficients for the calculation
That would need 64 mulipliers * 2 for left and right, so 128 in total, which is of course too much.
Instead we would run it at higher clock, e.g. 1 Mhz sampling rate and 64mhz processing, so it can be time multiplexed and only need 2 multipliers and less logic and FF while being fully configurable.
Only issue I see is if a system uses output above 300-400khz.

[feral swift]

What would the issue be if a system outputs above 300-400khz? We want to get rid of anything past roughly 20khz anyways, so these frequency ranges wouldn't be of much concern, at least for the audio output. There could be some cores where some audio elements or channels are working at an unknown sample rate, putting out signals into the high khz or potentially even low mhz frequency region.

[tropic stratus]

Any frequency higher than the sampling frequency/2, would fold down and maybe result in hearable artifacts. In this example anything above 500khz.

Ok, as we filter with 20khz afterwards it would not be any, but "some" instead

[feral swift]

Got it. So I assume this fold down would occur at a stage before the 20khz anti aliasing filter would be active? If so there are only two options I can think of, which are checking to see if the results are satisfactory, or if there is the possibility of adding another filter, even if it's more of a shallow filter using very few coefficients, to also prevent fold-back at this specific stage where it could happen.

The issue with filtering after the foldback has already occurred is that it's impossible to remove those artifacts past that point, so it's always better to try to prevent it from happening in the first place.

[bitter lintel]

"coefficients". fascinating. i'll stick to my coffee.

that also require filters

[hard laurel]

Sorry if this has been asked before. Is it possible to use an Xplorer Cheat Cartridge Rom (such as the Xplorer FX) with the Core?

[serene nebula]

Is that an exe or disc image?

[hard laurel]

Neither Robby, its a rom file that is flashed to the Xplorer Cartridge. I wondered if it could be used as a BIOS replacement?

[serene nebula]

That’s pretty interesting, thanks for the explanation.

[scenic reef]

in the current core it could only be used as a bios replacement if that cartridge injected itself in place of the bios, which i don't think it did

[minor spruce]

I dont event know of a bios that has a built in cheat engine of sorts...

[serene nebula]

There are cheats that do get pulled down with the update script. I know that’s not what you’re asking about but maybe it helps?

[minor spruce]

id imagine that or one of the boot discs that contain a cheat engine of sorts...

[feral swift]

Maybe the simple solution here would be to have whatever cores produce such high frequency content to internally apply a 3rd order IIR LPF to prevent foldback at 500khz. This could again be a filter entirely working outside the human hearing range, therefore no effect on audio quality.

I know you're busy with the GBA core right now, just puttig my thoughts down for reference later on when we have time to fully dedicate towards this.

[hard laurel]

It's more the fact the Xplorer FX has a built-in Trainer so you can find your own codes etc.

[serene nebula]

Oh, that’s pretty awesome.

[timber flint]

Not related to the PSX MiSTer core, but PSX in general, just wanted to share that I'm bout 15 hours on with the Suikoden 1&2 HD Remaster. Wanted to share that they did a really good job.

The updated translation so far is good and doesn't deviate from how i remember the dialogue. Some stuff is just worded better. Definitely worth checking out if you love Suikoden 1&2

[spring elk]

Yes, they definitely did a great job. Playing the Switch version, but I'm not very far yet. Super impressed though.

I got sidetracked by Unicorn Overlord. That is an amazing game.

[serene nebula]

Stop getting me to spend my money

[spring elk]

Might as well spend it on something good for a change.

[random bridge]

So, I came here 2-3 months ago to mention issues I have with the PSX core in regard to audio: (crackling sound, desync). I was told to change from chd to bin/cue files, which I did. I checked all my bin/cue files in Duck Station with their tool to be sure I have good dumps. My issue persist. It is not all the time but it is very annoying when it happens. It never happend as far as I am aware with other cd cores (Mega CD, Saturn, PC-Engine in particular). I am sure the problem is not the core, but with my MiSTer and I wondered what I should check for now that I eliminated the question about the files. As a reminder all my files are on my high speed SD card, so I guess the problem is elsewhere... Can I just be unlucky and got a bad DE-10 nano? P.S. Unicorn Overlord is an incredible game ❤️

[mortal oracle]

Can you try another SD card to rule that out?

[weak widget]

Also does it happen with both mini jack and optical out?

[random bridge]

I can certainly try that but if it was the SD card, shouldn't I get the same problem with saturn for example?

[random bridge]

Never tried, I get sound with HDMI

[mortal oracle]

The PSX core is particular tight on timings for audio iirc

Every core is demanding in its own way 😅

[chilly kraken]

So it's not easily reproducible? Do you notice any patterns that can trigger it?

Also, just to cover all bases, you've run memtest for a good amount of time (30 minutes plus)

[random bridge]

No, it is not easily reproductible. Last time it happens I was in Suikoden II, on the screen where I choose the character name. Most of the time it happens during FMVs. I think it may happens more often when I launch SAM. No, I did not try a memtest. What should I look for?

[deft sphinx]

What is the rest of your audio chain after you go from HDMI out of your MiSTer?

[tropic stratus]

Try with a game that doesn't use CD audio. If it never happens there, it's CD data streaming

or just check if it hits both CD audio(background music) and sound effects

One good way is to load e.g. Spyro into a level and remove the CD by pressing backspace in the load CD menu. Game should function as long as you don't speak with a dragon and sound should play(but no music)

[random bridge]

To the TV and from there optical cable to the sound bar.

[random bridge]

OK I'll try that. ALthough on Suikoden II it happend when I was moving the cursor to type my name in, so I guess this is sound effect? But I will try Spyro

[void scroll]

Have you tried using another display? Does it happen on the tv speakers if you disconnect your sound bar?

[random bridge]

Yes to both. This is clearly something happening at the level of my MiSTer and only with PSX. Question is, what part is problematic...

[knotty quail]

I have a similar, if not the same issue specifically with the PS1 core on MisterPi, using the analog IO board's audio out. Very crackly and distorted audio, both out on my CRT's speakers and when using direct headphones. Been trying to figure out what, if any, solutions are available to this?

[chilly kraken]

It’s a known issue with 9.2 boards. I think sorg was looking into it?

[random bridge]

In my case this is with a digital board through hdmi. And it is like the sound is "lagging", not played at the right time and tries to catch up.

[chilly kraken]

yeah, this one is different, and weird

[deft sphinx]

Seems a weird issue for sure. Have you tried changing the audio output? Are you doing 48k or 96k?

[chilly kraken]

^^ good call on the 96k

[abstract drift]

that fixed it?

[chilly kraken]

I dunno, but that's a good guess

could very well be that

[random bridge]

I am using 96k, should I go back to 48k?

[chilly kraken]

it’s worth a try

96k can cause issues

[random bridge]

OK, I'll change it for the PSX core. No issues with the other cores. And I'll try everything that was recommended. Let see if I still get this issue in the coming days/weeks...

[void scroll]

96khz needs to be supported by the DAC you use. Most common displays, tv or monitors max up at 48khz. Hopefully that fixes it.

[abstract drift]

on the other hand i always use 96khz on mister, did all the way through development and testing never seen (or heard) a single issue

[serene nebula]

Yeah I have 96khz on and never had an issue. Guess it depends on TV/Speakers used

[deft sphinx]

It is a tricky one to pin down but your TV is possibly doing something to the signal that is being sent from MiSTer to the optical out, and you also need to make sure your soundbar and optical cable happily support 96k.

So in your chain you have:
HDMI cable
TV
Optical cable
Soundbar

Any of these could in theory be a point of failure

[serene nebula]

Maybe the optical cable itself?

[deft sphinx]

Could well be, if it is old it may not like 96k

I would try swapping HDMI and optical cable if you have others around and see if there is any change there. Trouble shooting audio issues is a right pain.

[tulip moat]

You can get an audio extractor for HDMI devices. I use one as a loophole to get 96hz audio from my MiSTer to my capturing via OBS.

[kindred bane]

Anyone recently played wipeout xl (usa)? i got black screen when being hit by weapons. Didn't happen when i played it on real hardware though admittedly that was the EU version Wipeout 2097. Running update all now to see if that makes a difference (last time was a few weeks back). Can also check in duck to see if i may have a bad chd.

[ivory verge]

it's shake effect

solution: Fixed Hblank as well as Fixed Vblank can help delivering correct aspect rations and keeping the screen in sync with e.g. shaking animations.

[kindred bane]

ok

will try out shortly

[ivory verge]

This topic has been revisited here many times

[kindred bane]

crap, i actually did search on black screen,

And indeed the above fixed it! thanks Kuba.

[abstract drift]

does it really say aspect rations in the docs?

[mortal oracle]

To be fair, discord search is terrible 😅

[ivory verge]

Yes

[abstract drift]

yum

[ivory verge]

Yes true, sorry

[serene nebula]

The Important Info pin was updated with a link to the latest PWM build for this core.

[mortal oracle]

❤️

[random bridge]

Indeed. I will try and see what happen. One thing that make me wondering though is wether the PSX core is particularly sensitive to using 96k? Because it only happens with this core.

[deft sphinx]

The other spanner that could be thrown in the works is are the games you are hearing this on ones with Dolby Pro Logic sound?

I am right in thinking some Playstation games had audio in this format, didn't it?

[minor spruce]

i thought that was more of a PS2/PSP thing?

.....though the amount of either of those using PS1 level audio it wouldnt surprise me if it was also on PS1

huh

i guess i learn something new

[abstract drift]

some n64 games support DPL aswell, and even some games that don't have the prologic logo seem to have the encoding

the actual matrix math for it is easy, but you have to pay to show the logo

[serene nebula]

Some Super Nintendo games did too

[deft sphinx]

Wow, I didn't realise there are SNES games that supported pro logic

I am always surprised how well a modern amp can take most stereo signals on disc releases and then then into a surround mix, I bet these people logic games would sound great on a modern surround system.

It is like magic, how it can know to put certain sounds behind you for example.

[random bridge]

I have no idea. Up until now I had this issue on Tekken 3, Suikoden II, Final Fantasy VII, Tomba, Xenogears and Ridge Racer Type 4. Seems pretty random to me. I will do some tests today, I will go back to 48k and run PS1 games with SAM, paying attention to sound.

[desert otter]

Yes. One game I know about the top of my head is need for speed 4 high stakes

That game also happen to have really good car sounds and probably one of the best soundtracks in need for speed series

Callista by Saki Kakas is straight vibes

[random bridge]

So, I did some tests and I can confidently say that my audio issue is not linked to 48k vs. 96k because I still get the same issues whatever option I choose. When it happened during my tests I did what FPGAzumSpass suggested: I removed the CD to see if the BGMs were affected. They do not seem to be. When I put the cd back the music became affected again. It happens when I do not touch the controller, like when using SAM, but it seems to me that it happens more frequently when I keep pressing keys (like when I was writing my name in Suikoden II). Could this be a problem with the ARM side of my DE-10 Nano? From what I understand CD reading and controller inputs go through it, no?

[abstract drift]

whats your controller situation anything really weird?

[random bridge]

I generally use a Dualsense plugged in USB. I have no problem with it. When I got my MiSTer I had disconnections issues when using 4 controllers but after discussing with the seller I bought most parts from, we figured that this may come from the usb wiFi stick I used. Since then I do not plug it during gameplay and I do not have disconnections issues anymore.

[tropic stratus]

used a wired dualsense a lot, so if that is the only thing connected (usb, bluetooth, wifi, ethernet) it should be fine

if there is more connected, please remove everything but the one USB for the controller

as only with CD, the sound is affected, it's very likely CD data streaming. Maybe not storage but the linux system otherwise occupied with something

[random bridge]

I only have the dualsense connected through USB.

[mortal oracle]

Are you using any of the wizzo plugin things? I think I read that some of them can induce extra load on the Linux side of things - but I might be wrong

[void scroll]

Good call, maybe disabling all wizzo extensions just to be sure.

[void scroll]

Do you have another controller you can test?

[random bridge]

I have some downloaded but I guess I need to launch them for them to be active, no?

[random bridge]

Yes, that happened also with my M30

[void scroll]

You mentioned SAM, so that is an extension you should probably disable and test.

[chilly kraken]

Since it's read related, could it be the SD card?

[random bridge]

I also have this issue without SAM, but it happens more often when I use it, hence my question on the ARM CPU.

[random bridge]

This is something I did not test yet. I need to get another SD card first.

[cosmic tulip]

I got a dumb question, is there a keyboard shortcut for switching analog and digital on the core when not using snac

[lilac scaffold]

I think mouse click does it, not sure about kb

That, the combo shown in the OSD option, or map a button for it if ya have one spare

[serene nebula]

Can you bind keyboard butttons to a controller input?

[cosmic tulip]

That's what I'm wondering @serene nebula

[cosmic tulip]

I hate doing the combo lol

[serene nebula]

Yeah I don't know, I'll try giving it a shot later

[storm barn]

There should exist an option to have it always enabled.

[abstract drift]

its bound to the er, weird button on the dualsense

i dont know the name of it, underneath the PSX button

[storm barn]

The mute button? The Dualsense manual says that is the mute button.

[abstract drift]

yea

[serene nebula]

lol

[abstract drift]

that makes sense, its by the mic thing

and maybe to the touchpad click on dualshock4?

[serene nebula]

The Dual Sense is like the lowest lag wireless controller out there right?

Has a touchpad and everything. Kind of the perfect multi purpose controller.

[cosmic tulip]

I always have issues with dualsense it gets like locked on certain inputs

Like if I'm running in silent hill I cant turn with the analog

You know what, if the mister recognized the screenshot button on an xbox controller as a button this wouldnt be an issue

[abstract drift]

its not the strongest bluetooth signal out there in terms of range or penetration

[cosmic tulip]

I'm running wired which is the weird thing

[chilly kraken]

and only 4 face buttons. We have ascended as a culture - we cannot go back

[serene nebula]

Maybe sacrilege but I think I prefer 6 face buttons over four shoulder buttons

[manic citrus]

why not both

[serene nebula]

Too many!

[abstract drift]

i'm kinda the opposite on modern games fuck face buttons entirely i'm doing everything on paddles

[cosmic tulip]

Yeah honestly, I don't know why we are locked to 8 buttons total at all

[serene nebula]

Oh ok yeah, back paddles are great

Nevermind

[manic citrus]

yeah, the xbox elite with the two back paddles is good

[cosmic tulip]

what makes it great is that with win11, you can program keyboard keys to it

[manic citrus]

although I'm playing monster hunter with a dualsense and that is pretty comfy

[abstract drift]

it took me like a year and a half of accidentally throwing grenades at my friends but i'm now competent with all 4 paddles

[serene nebula]

I wish haptic triggers were standardized with the ability for a game to adjust throw so you can convert it to be a digital click or an analog trigger

[abstract drift]

we dont have that on mister for the dualsense do we?

it is possible, blueretro is doing it to emulate the GC trigger on dualsense

[serene nebula]

Yes but does it lock the trigger push so you can’t press it more than X%?

[manic citrus]

monster hunter uses haptic triggers for map zooming. you zoom normally and it hits a slight 'stop' that once you break through insta zooms to max

[serene nebula]

That’s nice

[abstract drift]

it can't lock it entirely its but it can make it so stiff it feels locked short of absolutely smashing it

[cosmic tulip]

You might want the new 8bitdo ultimate controller. It has a switch on the back to remove analog from the triggers and does so that it gives it a mechanical click

[chilly kraken]

When a game uses all the parts of the dual sense buffalo, I don't think there is a better (4 face button) controller

[abstract drift]

yeah the dualsense edge has shortstops you can turn on

its just a billion dollars

[crisp ether]

and still gets drift ;_;

[manic citrus]

you can replace the sticks with new ones that are perpetually never in stock!

[crisp ether]

thanks sony

[abstract drift]

its insane both console manufacturers premium $200+ dollar controllers dont even have hall sticks at this point

[serene nebula]

That sounds awesome. I want it implemented as a cross-console feature where you can control that via software.

[manic citrus]

mister emulates digital events at the extreme end of triggers!

[abstract drift]

thankfully i seem to have a light thumb or something, i've not worn any out, but i have the hall stick replacement parts here ready to go when the day comes

[manic citrus]

and confusingly so does the dualsense

[cosmic tulip]

There's a couple controllers with software that does that you can assign to profiles I cant remember their names though

[abstract drift]

does that mean when you full-pull R2 on a dualsense you actually press it twice on mister?

[serene nebula]

I think it’s that. Not pushing the analog stick hard really extends the life of it. My kids just keep wrecking my Switch controllers but my own personal one they aren’t allowed to use has been trucking fine for 6 years

[abstract drift]

if you're the kind of person who accidentally presses l3/r3 a lot, then i think you probably need hall sticks

different people stick different 🤷

[manic citrus]

you do 'press it twice' but you get a 'fake' digital event that mister generates for triggers and a 'real' one from the controller.

it doesn't matter tho because when you do button mapping it only uses one of those

[abstract drift]

huh

[steady flint]

I'm curious if it would ever be possible to add link cable support? As in how much logic would it take up and is there any possibility of it fitting. The system link cable was 8 pins so the SNAC port could be repurposed. As cheap as the MiSTer clones are it would be cool to setup two MiSTers linked together for local couch co-op. Looks like a decent amount of games (50+) supported it.

[sinful bloom]

On top of my head - Motor Toon Grand Prix, Doom

[steady flint]

Wikipedia lists 56 compatible games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Link_Cable

[tropic stratus]

We discussed that 2 years ago and came to the conclusion that there are not enough pins with SNAC, but I don't remember the details.

The only possibility that remained was to use SNAC for a proprietary data format that only works with 2 mister but not with mister<->psx

[manic citrus]

another bob deinterlacing test. internally uses a different method and will allow your video filters to work on the deinterlaced image

[tender tartan]

Yes! This looks awesome

[scenic ledge]

Hmm. I guess that on a real TV-Set "scanlines" would not be visible on the deinterlaced material at all. So I question if it is desired that the filters work on such an interlaced image.

[manic citrus]

well they work with the current bob

[scenic ledge]

I know and I voted to keep that for that reason for all those who want to have scanlines on all of the retro stuff.

But personally I just want the experience as authentic as possible

Are three options possible? Weave - Bob (w/Filters) - Bob?

But maybe I am wrong and Bob w/filters would be the authentic way to go. I am without a CRT for quite a few years now (until I move homes in July or August, my two CRTs are there already).

[tender tartan]

Scanlines are certainly visible with interlaced signals on a CRT, they just flicker up and down with each pass. So quite different effect than with progressive signal in that regard. I think this new option with a decently subtle horizontal filter emulates the look better than anything before on MiSTer.

[scenic ledge]

I am fine with that if the last sentence is consensus 😉

[abstract drift]

is this more of a crt-sim now? i gotta check this out

[manic citrus]

no, it's just like the previous playstation bob except it doesn't vibrate

(as much)

[void scroll]

I think the option to use filters with bob is important for consistency and should be the default one. Even without an extra menu option, you can just disable the filters.

[hallow quartz]

Love how this looks, much more stable looking!

[void scroll]

I find it even acceptable for 480i menus, once I used the scanlines soft preset. Might use it as a default.

[scenic ledge]

@zakk: is your improved new Bob a candidate to be ported to N64 or Saturn after PSX is done?

[manic citrus]

'weave' with a medium-ish vertical interpolation filter is also acceptable, it kinda removes the motion artifacts. thing is mister sets the vertical filter to the same as the horizontal when the signal is interlaced. because your scanlines would look gross

yeah, it's part of the scaler so I will move it over

[void scroll]

There is a difference with this new bob vs old bob when using the same scanlines filter, the new ones are thinner. I assume it is because the old one is using 240 lines and the new one uses 480 for its image?

[scenic ledge]

I guess that much thinner scanlines are expected. It sounds correct for a higher resolution

I couldn't test it yet, but I am in good faith that I am pleasently surprised.

[grand sage]

You can do it with Megadrive core. I've already played a full game (Zero Tolerance) with a friend that way.

[steady flint]

Yep, I have that setup as well :-).

[steady flint]

Found your response on the forums. Looks like it's mainly down to lack of interest and no one designing the appropriate SNAC-like hardware. But it answers my question that it's likely technically possible. I completely understand your level of interest. I'd love to contribute in one way or other, but my current level of skill is just 'throw money at the problem'. And I doubt I have enough money lol. Thanks for the reply both now and the one with explanations in the forum.

[serene nebula]

Yeah, it basically always just boils down to “does someone who can solve the problem know it exists, has the interest to solve it, and has the time available to do it.”

Sometimes the answer is no and that’s ok.

[manic citrus]

you don't get to decide that

bringing out the classics today

[tawny palm]

Loving the new bob. Look forward to it arriving on the Saturn too some day!

[steady flint]

Yep, I have the time, interest, and a little money to throw at, but missing the key ingredient....skill. But if anyone takes interest, I'd be happy to support.

[abstract drift]

isn't the hardware just a usbA-to-A cable if its mister to mister

slightly cursed but available

if it needs more than that i may be able to come up with something

[sinful bloom]

is emulating through ethernet too degenerate?

[abstract drift]

too much latency i think

[serene nebula]

Yeah same haha.

Sorry dude, wish I could help you with it.

Because it’s a genuinely cool application of SNAC

[abstract drift]

i have fond memories of playing link-up duke3d deathmatches with my brother

and a lot of red alert skirmishes

i think for mister to psx you may have to splice a cable - i cant find a part anywhere for the psx serial port

[steady flint]

Something like that. I don't know if it would need level shifters like SNAC. Haven't looked at voltages, etc. I would imagine you need some SNAC-like adapter if you wanted to use the full official Serial port.

[abstract drift]

the real thing was 3.3v

but i think we don't have enough pins it needs 8, assuming games used them all

https://psx-spx.consoledev.net/pinouts/#pinouts-sio-pinouts

[steady flint]

It lists pin 7 and shield as ground. Leaving 6 non-ground pins. Doesn't that line up with the ubs3.0 pinout, if you tie the grounds together? Truly asking here, I am shit at electronics hardware.

also, to be clear, not asking/requesting/pushing anyone on this, it's just interesting to me and if I learn a little something, that's a bonus

[void scroll]

Don't forget N64 and Megadrive. Even though sonic 2 and combat cars are the only games that need it for its two player mode. SNES had one 480i game, rpm racing.

[abstract drift]

i can't remember how many pins snac has lol, 6 sounds right though

but it might be 6 including grounds

i bet if you search up you can find me having this exact conversation with robert and him explaining - about 2 years ago?

[scenic ledge]

Is "sync 480i to HDMI" supposed to be on or off?

[chilly kraken]

If you have vsync_adjust 2 on, I would use it

[ivory verge]

on for digital, off for analog

[scenic ledge]

Hmm. Maybe a bug with the newest Bob:

After Hwoarang's stage "font artefacts" stay within the picture

I even saw them within a video after the fight:

[manic citrus]

bob has a tendency to trigger image retention on some displays

[scenic ledge]

Strangely it's just with Hwoarang's stage. After that it's there. Never before. If I reset the core it's gone instantly.

"syncing 480i to HDMI didn't make a differemce

[void scroll]

Is your display an IPS panel? Those are the ones that get image retention using bob, not all are affected but many are. It is temporary though, should clear quite fast. If you run Tobal 1 without any cropping you will trigger it, on the bright artifacts in the overscan area.

[scenic ledge]

yes, IPS: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B09BP8ZHQF?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1

[void scroll]

That should be the problem then. You could try lowering your monitor brightness to see if it helps.

[scenic ledge]

Thank you. Good to have that ruled out 😉

[void scroll]

You don't need bob to trigger it though. Any pixel that is constantly flickering on/off will end up stuck. It's just that bob makes many pixels do that per frame, especially if you have scanlines. One frame the pixel is lit by the image (on), the next it becomes a scanline (off) and so on. Try disabling the scanlines filter if you have them enabled.

[scenic ledge]

Well, I guess that I am the poster usecase for keeping newBob1 as an option.

NewBob2 should replace oldBob and NewBob1 should be kept as an option for IPS users

(or those who find scanlines on deinterlaced pictures less pleasing)

[void scroll]

You can always remove the filters on newbob2, they are an option after all. That would result in newbob1 without having an extra menu option. Besides, it makes sense to keep enabling/disabling filters from the filters menu instead of having it tied to a different Bob option.

[scenic ledge]

Well, I would always have to turn it on or off, even within games when interlaced content unexpectedly appears.

[void scroll]

Maybe in those cases you would be better choosing weave, as the games that switch resolutions basically do 480i in menus only, which is perfect for weave. That way you would get scanlines on gameplay, but not on the 480i menus . Better than having to change options within games.

[serene nebula]

What About Bob?

[pastel radish]

Since we now have the ST-V core, you think we would see the Sony ZN-1 ZN-2 core based off the Playstation?

[waxen elk]

New persona looking lit

[deft sphinx]

In short, no. S-TV was pretty much just a Saturn that could read carts without any chips etc. added or swapped out (there are some exceptions). The PSX based arcade boards all seem to be pretty different hardware, none of them are just a PSX board in an arcade case.

It does appear that it would be possible to do something similar with the N64 core to play Aleck64 arcade games natively on it, as that hardware was pretty much identical and the patched versions run already as N64 ROMs.

I am now wondering if there are any other arcade systems that are so close to console hardware that those could have support added like S-TV. I think some do already, like with the Master System core (are there .mra files that load games via the SMS core?). Maybe there are others that do this on different cores already.

[river otter]

Nintendo VS perhaps?

[void scroll]

Coinop collection is working on the zn1. Good for preservation purposes but all of the games have basically arcade perfect PS1 ports. Hopefully someone takes on namco system 12 as Tekken Tag, Soul Calibur are heavy hitters from that era.

[serene nebula]

that's pretty cool

[deft sphinx]

Well I will believe when I see it when it comes to them doing ZN1. The PSX based arcades feel like systems we won't see until there is a successor board that has more space to play with, so the PSX core can have more chips etc. added to it.

[deft sphinx]

That's one I don't think we have yet, Kitrinx did some work on it I think, maybe as a mapper within the core rather than MRA files loading into the core, but that is a good example of an arcade system based on a console.

Without getting too off topic there were boards like this that I am not sure we support (do we have this one?)
https://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=859

[river otter]

🤔 could Nintendo VS be done now with MRAs or does the core still need some work?

[deft sphinx]

Core definitely needs work to support it

Maybe after the work is done .mra files could then be made to load the arcade ROMs via the core (rather than needing to load ROMs within the NES core OSD)

Might be interesting though to try compile a list of arcade systems that are essentially identical to console hardware that we have already, there may be some low hanging fruit for arcade games that could be added with minimal work on the cores and creating .mra files similar to how Zakk has been doing with S-TV, but on earlier generation hardware

[lapis tide]

Hello. I have a question about how game like tomb raider are programmed. Does the game load the entiere level datas (meshs, sounds, textures) in ram and then during gameplay push datas to GPU? Or during gameplay the game load datas from cd drive to ram ?

[bright stump]

Talking mainly (99%) out of my arse here but I remember Soul Reaver being the first ps1 game to “stream” level data from the disc.
Nearly sure that just TR’s music is loaded from the CD on demand because I remember my scratched disc not playing the music cues during levels occasionally.

Disclaimer: This may all be bollocks

[tulip moat]

Crash Bandicoot predated that game when it comes to streaming data. Specifically it dynamically loads in chunks of information based on your position in a level, hence why it's possible to take out the disc and the game won't immediately break.

[somber steppe]

If the soul reaver devs spent half as much time on development of the game as they did talking about their streaming technology they wouldn't have needed to cut half the game.

[serene nebula]

Hey everyone, new here so sorry for my question but @manic citrus told me to come here and ask about the Dual Ram core? It has sound?

[chilly kraken]

the sound is so good

Zakk actually demoed it for me a couple months back. I am sure he would be happy to set up a call and walk you through the differences

[manic citrus]

wait until you hear my triple ram core

[buoyant plinth]

The triple-rammed core of eroticon 6?

[lusty coral]

Hey welcome to the discord. It's pretty cool here apart from a certain mod. (I heard a rumor that the mod in question is gatekeeping a Gamecom core). Name rhymes with Bobby.

[buoyant plinth]

That Dobby's a bad'un

[mortal oracle]

Bad Dobby! Bad Dobby!

[crisp ether]

another impressive early PS1 game w/r/t data streaming is King's Field II (King's Field (1) in USA/Europe) - no loading after the initial load-in or when you use a teleporter

it also actually predates Crash Bandicoot

it has less data to stream than Crash, but it's also vastly more open

[sinful bloom]

I am pretty doubly sure Tomb Raider I and II preloaded entire level design and related assets into RAM (they're set of three dimensional square tiles with coordinates) and only streamed music cues from CD

to double check that, remove CD while playing the level and see how far you go

Tomb Raider III is built on new engine that uses triangle "tiles" but the principle is the same

TLR and Chronicles are built on another engine and it has to stream data for chunks of levels and mid-level cutscenes

[tired crypt]

Hi folks, I already posted this in #help, however thought this might be a better place for it!

I recently picked up a PS1 SNAC adaptor from misterfpga.co.uk and have been having fun using my GunCon 1 to play Time Crisis etc on my CRT. I wanted to try out the other non-Guncon games (such as Area 51 and Die Hard Trilogy) so picked up a third party, non-GunCon gun (the Logic 3 Predator)

However after hooking it up I can't get it to register any shots on screen (screen just flashes)

Is there a some sort of setting I'm missing? One thing to add - I am running version 6.0 of the IO board. I realise 6.1 is the recommended version, however the SNAC adaptor has worked fine for everything else so far (normal controllers, plus Guncon)

[serene nebula]

Have you reached out to the vendor with your question?

The easiest solution might be to just patch those games for use with the GunCon.

[void scroll]

The patched games are the way as the Guncon is more accurate.

[runic edge]

If you cant test it on real hardware there is a more recent phenomenon to consider where the aging plastic of these old guns warps and the diode inside is misaligned.

You can open the gun, keeping it on its side, point it at the screen and shoot while slightly adjusting board to find out.

[tired crypt]

Yeah I tested with my real PS1 and the gun functions fine. I suspect it's because I'm using an old 6.0 IO board, rather than a 6.1.

Will definitely look into the patched games (just a shame there doesn't seem to be patched version of Area 51)

[desert otter]

The original TR had audio issues to begin with. Had some bugs where audio cues wouldn't play when they are supposed to, would play the wrong audio, or audio would just cut out part way through playing it.

But yes, music was streamed from the disc like playing an audio CD.

[abstract drift]

i always liked the pc versions creepy ambience soundtrack more

[still palm]

yes your problem is 6.0 io board. 6.1 added a jumper selector next to the user port that enables another io pin. with psx snac that pin is used for the justifier and also used for the yellow composite on snac used for guncon. You can hack a 6.0 to add functionality.

[tired crypt]

Brilliant, thanks for the explanation blue, appreciate it! 🙂

[desert otter]

https://www.reddit.com/r/psx/s/8kBigNVuvx

[weak widget]

Was wondering, is https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/PSX_MiSTer/issues/271 confirmed to be a real glitch? Iirc Robert said something about it not happening in pwm core or when using a certain setting, but can't find/remember

[manic citrus]

guess I'm buying dual sdram

[serene nebula]

Yeah I didn’t want to lose that explanation. I just cleaned up pins in #general-banter

[cosmic tulip]

Huh is the dual sd ram core at parity with the most recent psx core?

[manic citrus]

probably? there hasn't been much changed in the core so there's probably some build floating around that's up to date

[timber flint]

I'm so glad I went with dual ram

[serene nebula]

On this core it’s useless

Useless to humans I should specify

[timber flint]

Didn't you just say it offers cycle accurate Audio? Not that I'd be able to tell

But I have zero use for the analog video output so dual ram was the way to go

And from my understanding from those on the 3DO discord dual ram might be a requirement they seem to think

[serene nebula]

They have absolutely no clue

[timber flint]

Well the guy who wrote an emulator for it seems to think it either won't be possible at all and they'll hit roadblocks or dual ram will be required

I'm excited to see how it plays out

[serene nebula]

The guy may not be up to speed on what’s possible with the MiSTer

I mean no offense to him

[manic citrus]

no one even thought saturn was possible and here we are

[timber flint]

Said it has to do with the speed of the ram on Mister not being fast enough

[serene nebula]

Unless he’s a MiSTer core dev like srg320 he may not a full understanding of what sort of wizardry can be pulled off on the MiSTer

[timber flint]

I don't really care if it's cycle accurate personally

If it just works that'll be good enough for me and hopefully it'll render the games in 240p instead of 480i

[serene nebula]

It’s early days and he’s just trying to not get people hyped up on an unknown. It’s understandable.

[timber flint]

Getting a 3DO to not look like shit on a modern TV isn't easy unless you got a 3DO with the 240p switch

[serene nebula]

Don’t take his comments as fact.

[timber flint]

3DO looks great on emulation but plenty of games have a lot of audio bugs

And of course it's on all my favorite games cause why not

[serene nebula]

I’m sure the dude is extremely talented and definitely knows a fair deal on making a software emulator. But he’s not an expert on FPGA development.

That’s like me telling him what’s possible on making a 3DO emulator.

I have no doubts the 3DO core on MiSTer will be the be the best way to enjoy that system outside of original hardware,

But back to PlayStation

[timber flint]

I hope so!

Is the turbo PSX core pretty complete?

[serene nebula]

The explanation says it all. It’s extremely rare when there is an audio desync and when it happens it’s less than ONE microsecond. Literally and physically impossible for human detection.

Dual ram was an exercise in cycle accuracy, it’s why it’s not distributed because there is zero benefit.

[timber flint]

Ah

[serene nebula]

But it’s a cool programming challenge and expertly done.

[tulip moat]

Also I think it was mentioned that the single RAM build technically has a faster GPU, so there are edge cases where performance is marginally better.

But it's like so minor that you wouldn't notice it anyway.

So the differences between the two is honestly pretty superficial. That's why I'm not surprised the dual RAM build isn't pushed in the same way as the Atari Jaguar or SEGA Saturn.

[serene nebula]

Yeah, those are appreciable differences, even if the goal is to not require dual sdram.

Can’t limit a core developer after all.

We’re trying to figure out a seamless delivery method so people with dual sdram get those builds instead when updating and people with single sdram get that build instead.

The issue is just avoiding scenarios where people new to MiSTer don’t know what ram they have and download the wrong core and it doesn’t work.

[timber flint]

For sure

[serene nebula]

@timber flint sorry I probably sounded ultra rude to that emulation developer. I’ll rephrase my comments.

[timber flint]

I made a sub folder called MyConsoleCores. I took all the cores from the latest update all, copied them in there, and then downloaded all latest unstables with that script. Then replaced the latest unstables in my custom directory so update all cores are left untouched

[tulip moat]

Just specify that the core builds are single RAM or dual RAM in the name.

By that point if you still get confused, then that is on you.

[timber flint]

And also renamed the files

Like

Sega Genesis
Sega CD
Atari Lynx

Etc

[tulip moat]

Like "PS1 (Single RAM)" and "PS1 (Dual RAM)". Doesn't need to be fancy.

[manic citrus]

it's more than that. things like MGLs have to work

[serene nebula]

The goal is automation, the script reading how much ram you have installed.

[serene nebula]

If you want to be lazy like me, I just rename the latest cores to be whatever the last unstable is and overwrite it.

So update_all doesn’t replace it and I don’t need a separate folder or core for latest unstables

[timber flint]

I like a streamlined look myself.

Nice thing is with Mister there is no right or wrong way

[serene nebula]

Yes but my way makes me a LIAR

[timber flint]

😂

[serene nebula]

I am lying to my MiSTer about the core

You took the honorable path

[timber flint]

At the end of the day the games boot. That's all that matters

[mortal oracle]

Just read this. Single ram core is unplayable. Looks like I need to buy dual ram

Up to 100ns of lag?! Unacceptable

[chilly kraken]

Robert also said that dual ram may be less accurate in other ways because of how fast it ran. Trying to find that post

[mortal oracle]

I remember that, but it doesn’t fit in with the bit I was doing

[chilly kraken]

Oh, sorry.

You need dual ram because the number is bigger

That’s just science

[mortal oracle]

#1046940919607345272 message

[chilly kraken]

@serene nebula ^^ pin that too to really confuse folks

[shut escarp]

even better, it's ~10 -nano- seconds

so many zeroes

[manic citrus]

yet another one. this time weave is modified. please let me know how it looks both in static menus and in fast motion. in motion combing artifacts should mostly be gone

[scenic ledge]

I will try it later. Is your Weave implementation combining the 480i60 fields into a 480p30 picture?

[tropic stratus]

I think it's halved framerate, but feels very good! Tried with internal section and ehrgeiz and they both play nice with it.

Maybe the method should get a new name as it's not weave anymore?

[manic citrus]

no, it's not halved framerate, it's a forced vertical filter that's just -16,144,144,-16. so just a bit of vertical blending to smooth out the combing but not so strong it blurs things

[tawny palm]

My dude, this is magic. This is the new standard for deinterlacing on MiSTer. Better than the improved bob, and better than the 480p hack.

The only issue I'm seeing is a bit of motion blur that's happening. Most noticable in something like Dead or Alive's training stage that has a black background.

[hollow stratus]

Ooh fun. Thanks @tawny palm for pinging me

Might be helpful for testing

All Star Boxing
Arcade Hits: Shienryu
Atari Anniversary Edition Redux (7 of the 12 games support 480i in High resolution mode)
Bloody Roar II
Boxing
Bubsy 3D
Bugi
Clock Tower II: The Struggle Within
Clock Tower: Ghost Head
Dead or Alive
Devil Dice
Dragon Quest Characters: Torneko no Daibouken 2: Fushigi no Dungeon
Dynasty Warriors
Ehrgeiz
Formula 1 (High Res and Wide Screen modes)
Gekioh Shooting King
Geki-Oh Shooting King: Shienryu
iS Internal Section
Kensei: The Sacred Fist
Kickboxing
Kickboxing Knockout
Rapid Racer
Ridge Racer Turbo
Sangoku Musou
Simple 1500 Series Vol. 32: The Boxing
Simple 1500 Series Vol. 64: The Kickboxing
Tekken 3
Tobal No.1
Tobal 2
Torneko: The Last Hope
Turbo Prop Racing
Xevious 3D/G+ (Xevious, Super Xevious, and Xevious Arragement displays 480i in Normal Screen Modes)
XI [sai]

[serene nebula]

Don’t say that, it’s going to go to his head

Update pins with link to his latest core

[tawny palm]

Ridge Racer Turbo is also looking great!

[tawny palm]

I shall shower him with praise just to spite you!

[serene nebula]

@tawny palm dumb question but what does this do? Is it like some new form deinterlacing?

[tawny palm]

It is! You know those combing artifact you normally get when using the "weave" option in games like Tekken 3? That's just gone now.

And the bob option always has the image jump up and down to remove them, but that is distracting in its own, but different, way. The improved bob option was way better than the old one, but this new weave option is even better yet.

[tropic stratus]

strange, 480p hack feels smother in ehrgeiz, that's why i assumed it. Maybe it's the blurring. Either way, this is easily the best way to view 480i content currently unless you can accept the 480p hack issues

[serene nebula]

It has issues? lol

I mean of course I beleive you but it's been pretty flawless for me

[serene nebula]

Can you do a dual ram version please, thx

[tawny palm]

Yeah, it stretches the image quite a bit depending on the game. PS1 games have a lot of resolution modes, and the 480p option has only one way to display all of them. Something like Dead or Alive stretches quite a bit, really distorting the image. I've also experienced crashes in Ridge Racer Turbo with it on. Some games also just have some visual bugs too.

[serene nebula]

Dude, you're genuinely awesome. Thanks for taking the time to explain it all to me. There's probably quite a few lurkers who've you helped out too.

[tawny palm]

Just make sure to thank Zakk! Feed him with your praise!
But seriously, this new option is very good so far in my testing. Ehrgeiz is looking good too.

Tobal No.1 also looking very good on my end. Really the only issue I've been seeing is the little bit of motion blur it creates. But it's very minor compared to the issues that the other deinterlacing options have in my opinion.

[manic citrus]

yeah, I want to test a few more cores with a lot of interlaced stuff, esp text. and then see if it might be worth just making this the default mister-wide.

also with psx (and I guess saturn too) people have been using the 'bad' bob as a way to still have scanline filters applied on 480i content. even tho that is 'incorrect' we might need to keep that around on saturn/psx

[tawny palm]

Saturn has a ton of interlaced stuff. Possibly more than PS1? Not sure. But there's definitely more games there that I personally love with interlacing.

Never tried the PS1 version of Shienryu until just now. And from what I'm seeing, it doesn't actually have interlacing at all? The Saturn version absolutely does.

[mortal oracle]

Ohh, new deinterlacing! I am much excite!

Although I don’t even think I’ve tried new bob yet. Just old bob

[tawny palm]

Old Bob is your uncle that works at Nintendo.

[mortal oracle]

Old Uncle Bob Miyamoto

[void scroll]

There's an issue with the new weave that affects text. You can see it clearly in the memory card manager.

There is now like a shadowing outline, top and bottom of the letters

[mortal oracle]

Slap a filter on it. That would hide it 😅

[void scroll]

Tried that, made it worse

The last one is old weave

Both photos have no filters enabled.

[ivory verge]

Yes static images looks worse

[mortal oracle]

It’s just like taking my glasses off

Or being drunk

[void scroll]

Yeah, at first I thought it was motion blur from my phone cam.

[void scroll]

I dont think this replaces old weave, as it has its uses on text menus, which many rpgs use. Compared to bob2, that is a harder comparison, you get rid of the up/down motion, but introduce more aliasing during movement. I can't really tell which one I prefer. bob2 allows scanlines so I might prefer it in the end, as the scanlines help with aliasing even further compared to new weave, and help hide the updown motion. Maybe if new weave could support scanlines? Still, more options the merrier. Deinterlacing has always been about compromises. And preferences. Can't really wait for this options to show up on Saturn and N64 cores.

[mortal oracle]

Are there a lot of interlaced RPGs?

[void scroll]

In Menus, Chrono Cross comes to mind.

[mortal oracle]

That’s a big one. Thanks

[void scroll]

Gran Turismo 1 & 2 menus are also 480i

[abstract drift]

silent hills maps

[chilly kraken]

dino crisis

[serene nebula]

dino crisis and the map in silent hills

[chilly kraken]

menu in silent hill too.

[sinful bloom]

Bubsy 3D is a 480i game

Also Tekken 3

[rapid garden]

they weren't kidding, the PS1 is capable of mind boggling effects

[manic citrus]

honestly bob2 probably won't make it into main/framework with filters enabled. that was me seeing if i could get them to look like 240p but they don't. also technically those are "incorrect" for 480i content which is why the filters got disabled for interlaced content to begin with.

[void scroll]

Yeah, 480i does not really have scanlines so I understand. Weave should stay as it has proven works very well with static content, New bob should replace the current bob as it is much improved and correct implementation. And the third option could be called weave+blend maybe? Or are you thinking of only keeping 2 options for deinterlacing?

[manic citrus]

I'm not sure if 2 is a hard rule but the more you add the more confused you make people. the real problem is if you replace existing bob everyone who uses it because filters apply will now be annoyed

esp because depending on the game and filter, they may not even see the vibrating

[random bridge]

Are all filters disabled in this case or only the scanlines? I get the point for the scanlines but the shadow masks should be unaffected by the de-interlacing options, no?

[manic citrus]

when main detects interlaced video it sets the 'vertical filter' to the same as the horizontal filter. for most people that probably means it disables scanlines

shadow masks are unchanged

[scenic ledge]

Personally I would stick to authenticity. If Bob is not supposed to show scanlines, it shall not do it.

Weave, weave and blend and (new)Bob1 seem sensible for 480i.

[scenic ledge]

And the "burn in"-effect on many IPS monitors would confuse just a lot..

[manic citrus]

the existing bob has that issue too

[scenic ledge]

I hadn't noticed it on oldBob that much. I guess that it was more noticeable with newBob2 on my monitor or I was just paying closer attention because of testing for defects?

But thanks for working on it. Both old methods were lacking in my eyes and it is astonishing how much you can change/improve this.

[delicate spire]

I heard that it’s like no difference between the single ram and dual ram core (sound difference) but just curious, where do you find/download the dual ram core?

[runic edge]

It would be in test-builds.

I think

[ivory verge]

https://discordapp.com/channels/647909397477195803/1046940919607345272/1324080240829403156

i think it's the most up to date

[delicate spire]

Thanks guys! @ivory verge @runic edge 😀

[void scroll]

I would outright replace the old bob option, even if people use it for scanlines. I noticed this 2 years ago. https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?t=7118
A wrong implementation shouldn't have become a "feature". If old bob stays maybe call it bob (legacy)? So, 4 options then: Bob, Bob (legacy), Weave, Weave+blend. I don't think more options is going to bring more problems than removing the old versions, and correct implementations have to be included so maybe that's the right call.

[hollow stratus]

thats some good weave @manic citrus

[serene nebula]

We shouldn’t include inferior options.

[serene nebula]

Adding more options is bad. Especially when we dont explain the difference between the two,

[hollow stratus]

like how I am putting Bubsy 3D in my weave video?

[serene nebula]

Who the hell is going to know what’s the difference between Bob and Bob 2

[hollow stratus]

Bob Newhart

[serene nebula]

True

[hollow stratus]

he had two shows with his name in them. He knows the diff between them

[tender tartan]

If scanlines are visible on a CRT when fed a 480i signal is debatable. The alternating vertical offset makes them appear kind of semi-opaque.

The relevant question is what produces a pleasing image. Scanline emulating filters are popular because they break up the image in a way lets the viewer fill in the blanks between the pixels in the underlying picture, somewhat similar to when viewing the image on a CRT.

The “bob with scanline filter” option produces this effect quite successfully imo.

[void scroll]

That's why I went for bob (legacy). It implies it is no longer the latest or recommended version. Most people will automatically go for the new one. The ones that used bob before and notice changes can opt for the legacy version. I forgot to include that this bob (legacy) should not be old bob, but bob2, which allows scanlines, with less bobbing and much more stable image. It would not be legacy anymore, so maybe bob(scanlines)?

[hollow stratus]

guys...its not that hard

Bob (Bad) and Bob (Propane)

[hollow stratus]

I am hooked

[serene nebula]

I do not need these features because I have evolved my eyes to vibrate at the same frequency as the image to stabilize the visuals

[hollow stratus]

stop huffing spraypaint

[somber steppe]

When you make a vid pls also put a comparison to external scaler weave/bob/motion adaptive deinterlacing in.

[hollow stratus]

in the future I will. Today was just weave and prev deinterlacing method

I will run a longer "core against tink" in the future

[somber steppe]

Thank you. 🙏

[hollow stratus]

I mentioned Tink just in the "yes you can go direct video out into a Tink 4K and get motion adaptive deinterlacing which is amazing but at the combined cost it also amounts to an 'exotic solution' where the new weave is free and VERY close to"

[somber steppe]

I'd be especially interested in comparing games that switch between 240p and 480i, like silent hill, dino crisis and such.

[hollow stratus]

once it hits main and update_all I will run it

[somber steppe]

👍

[hollow stratus]

doing X68000 updates now as in the new puppy haze I didn't even notice it had updates

suddenly we are just getting dropped gifts on cores that haven't seen updates in awhile!

[serene nebula]

the amigavision people have a 0mhz pack coming up

There’s an existing 0mhz style pack out there too

[hollow stratus]

ill add it to the list. I did a vid on the first pack. Looks like its time to update soon

I swear nothing comes spaced out; its feast or famine on the video front haha

[serene nebula]

My favorite is when srg320 releases a Saturn update minutes after you post your latest Saturn video

never not funny lol

[hollow stratus]

haha I swear he is looking over my shoulder

honestly the amount of times that happens or someone comments "I wish you'd make a video on X" and I legit have it scheduled for like 48 hours later is wild

keeping up with everything is a challenge but I enjoy a good challenge

[mortal oracle]

This would be awesome!

[hollow stratus]

I depend on them. I know NOTHING of the Amiga

I need that curated pack

[mortal oracle]

I assumed Robby meant for the X68K, since AmigaVision already exists and is the OG 0MHz

But if I’m wrong, I’m also less excited 😅

[serene nebula]

Yeeahaw

[hollow stratus]

ooh...yeah I get it now lol

that'll be fun for X68000 too but that I have strung together already with the Quad HDF setups

[dark mountain]

Maybe. Just, maybe.

[hollow stratus]

it happens so often it feels like a glitch

last week I got a comment on the Analogue 3D video asking how long the delay might be from Nathan Barnett, the comedian who did Keith Apicary (the whole neo geo skit dude)...who I hadnt thought about in years...until 2 hours BEFORE I read that comment I saw on instagram he is dating an old friend from Chicago that moved like 8 years ago

thats some matrix stuff

[chilly kraken]

the simulation is breaking down

[chilly kraken]

Not officially affiliated with amiga vision (limi is just helping us). But yes, soon™. I am doing a final test run of the games in the pack right meow

[hollow stratus]

you got Dracula Hakushaku in there?

[chilly kraken]

no, shit, but I meant to add it. Let me see if I can sneak it in. Converting things to HDF can either be straight forward or goddamned witchcraft

[hollow stratus]

its like this dumbass X68000 mini and only taking ONE obscure file format

sure you can convert via a python script but batching it just fails

so its by hand one at a time

[chilly kraken]

yeah, I did about a dozen new games for this pack already. no two done the same way…maddening

[hollow stratus]

X68000 sucks to actually work with or use. Its just a retro PC and no retro PC "just works"

[chilly kraken]

oh wait, this is eroge - that’s why I skipped it. I think there is adult pack coming later

[hollow stratus]

haha eroge light but yes...it has naughty bits

[chilly kraken]

it too bad that it’s so fucking cool

[glad raven]

I feel like I might have missed the boat on the X68000, personally.

[chilly kraken]

I did too, so I’ve spent the last 3 months swimming after it

[glad raven]

Thing is, I'm specifically after the XVI models.

[chilly kraken]

they are so pretty

[glad raven]

But then, the games... OH GOD. I don't even want to fathom what it would cost to get original copies of all the X68000 Gradius releases and Thunder Force II. Those are the big ones for me.

[chilly kraken]

Oh yeah dude. Those games are ridiculous

and on fucking floppy disks. I’m surprised they are still working tbh

[hollow stratus]

I want one. I dont want to pay for one

[glad raven]

I'd be fine with a broken one to fix up if it comes to it.

[serene nebula]

Ohh ok, thanks for the clarification

[hollow stratus]

Well someone lmk when the pack is out. People always love X68000 news

[tawny palm]

What could possibly go wrong!?

[hollow stratus]

Haha I’m a quasi bubsy 3D defender

Game it garbage but you can tell they tried to NOT make it garbage

[abstract drift]

targeting 480i60 on PSX is a flex

[hollow stratus]

I will be eternally optimistic about games that suck but you can tell they tried to make a good game

But stuff like Final Fight: Streetwise for next week? Top to bottom trash with some of the stupidest tonal changes in a game that are horribly unnecessary. I mean they put a cheesy stripper “blowie” scene in the game

[chilly kraken]

https://tenor.com/81Lb.gif

[hollow stratus]

Hah I put it in the vid. Next week it’ll air

But yeah Bubsy 3D I can appreciate because yoincan see the intent of the devs. They tried to make a fun, colorful and weird Platformer. They just didn’t get the job done

Streetwise is an example of where the devs fully succeeded at what they set out to do; make a dick and tits joke based 3D fighting game that was 2000s era edgy

[main swift]

Hey everyone! I need some help running a PSX title, I have the .bin and .cue but it's not working. All the other games work perfectly fine. I went through the Resident Evil 1.5 rabbit hole again and I want to play the Biohazard 2 Prototype from Nov 96 but it won't load on MiSTer. It will load on duckstation, though.

[hollow stratus]

check the cue sheet. Make sure it doesn't have any odd errors in syntax

ive seen non-retail cue sheets that will indicate a .bin file and the naming conventions are off

[main swift]

How would I go about that?

[hollow stratus]

Open the cue in a text editor

[main swift]

Looks like I got it to work, when you said to check the cue sheet, I looked it up in Google and it said I could create a new cue file with DuckStation Cue Maker and now it's working

Thank you, @hollow stratus!

[hollow stratus]

Haha I knew it

[main swift]

lol yea so weird man

[hollow stratus]

It’s always the cue

Duckstation can usually just figure it out itself

[main swift]

Thanks for the lead, I really appreciate it

[hollow stratus]

Np! That’s what I’m here for. And to make jokes

[serene nebula]

And to make me look good

[hollow stratus]

Don’t give me an impossible task

[pearl shell]

@tropic stratus hey Robert, long time no chat but my girlfriend found a bug in Lilo and Stitch boss fights, the screen seems to flash black, just attack the boss and you will see what I mean, save state is at the start of a boss fight 🙂 Ignore this, it required both fixed blanks due to insane screen shakes xD

I also have a memory card save just before the fight starts if you need that as well 🙂

[nimble pond]

I have an even better one. Some wise guy challenged me on the 3DO channel saying "but sony never called it the psx, magazines made that up"

Guess what I found