Sharing some facts regarding plant-based diets and livestock farming

[wet ibex]

I am interested so see what this becomes

[empty basin]

So I wanted to respond to what Vex said about soil health, manure and fertilizers

Don't provoke, Matt :p

[wet ibex]

My name is Henry

[fallen depot]

yer

[empty basin]

K cool

So what was it that you said about fertilizers being neccessary?

@alpine forge 👋

[fallen depot]

Most vegan staples, such as wheat, soy, corn, and almonds are most usually grown in massive monocultures, meaning no variety in what is grown in a specific farm. These plants rely on, and take certain nutrients in the soil leaving less and less every harvest. Destroying soil health, killing biodiversity and enormously enhances dependance on chemical fertilizers and pesticides

Synthetic fertilizers and nutrients give plants the BASIC elements they need to grow but dont build long term soil health the way natural fertilizers do

[empty basin]

So to start off, a couple relevant facts. 80% of all agricultural land is for livestock, and almost half of all crops are for livestock food. About 70% of all antibiotics go to livestock as well. I'll get to why this is relevant.

Soil health is being destroyed largely because of the livestock industry. Fertilizers used are either, like you mentioned, ''natural'' or synthetic. A big problem with antibiotics in livestock is that they're often given not for the health of the animals, but because they also stimulate growth. More antibiotics, bigger animals. But the problem is that alot of these antibiotics aren't absorbed by the bodies, and instead are passed through their excrement. Manure. This manure is then used to fertilize the ground, antibiotics and all. These antibiotics are absorbed by the soil and the crops that grow on this soil, creating resistant genes that in turn make it into our own bodies, slowly making us resistant to our last line of defence in medicine.

But that's just natural fertilizer. Synthetic fertilizers are worse. To prevent them from caking, they're covered in plastic film. This plastic disintegrates into the soil, and when it disintegrates even further it's absorbed by fungi that eventually also make it into the plants.

Because of the manner in which most farmers use these fertilizers, most of it washes off of their land and into the waters around their farms. But not only that, the waters drain the soil of these antibiotics and plastics as well. This in turn creates ''dead zones'', areas in which life has become impossible. It ruins entire eco-systems.

Regarding the vegan staples: most of those go to livestock. We only eat a couple percent of all soybeans produced, the rest goes to livestock. But for these fields, as well as for grazing land and wood for heating, there's alot of deforestation. Deforestation that in turn contributes to soil falling into the waters.

[hoary sluice]

Mmmmm Capitalism

[empty basin]

Also @alpine forge, all the sources I have for the risks of cancer etc are Dutch at the moment, I'll have to look into English sources another time. But I can guarantee that it's been well researched that meat, especially red meat and processed meat, increases risk of heart disease, cancer and diabetes type 2.

Though if you check out the site for the World Health Organization, there should be plenty of information.

[fallen depot]

Yes, 80% of agricultural land is dedicated to live stock, but most of that land is unusable for crops. Grazing happens on marginal lands, meaning too rocky, dry or cold for crops. So if everyone suddenly went vegan, that land would still be unusable for crop growth, it would simply sit unused or likely bought up by greedy corporate developers. So the 80% argument has largely been monumentally exhagerated for the sake of argument about how much land would actually be freed up by veganism. Next, its also true most soy goes to animals, but thats because industrial farming is focused on cheap meat. However, soy expansion and deforesation in the amazon are driven by global soy demand itseld, not just into meat production. Even if we cut livestock, monoculture soy farming still destroys ecosystems if it goes to humans directly. Technically, vegan diets would push that demand on to people directly which would only increase the monoculture dependence. Next, yes Antibotic runiff is an issue but its overshadowed by a bigger one in industrial concentrations and factory farms. Small-scale regenerative farms dont pump animals with antibiotics and their manure is a closed nutrient loop. If animals are removed completely, reliance shifts to synthetic fertilizers, whcih we agree, is bad because of dead zones microplastics etc., So the solution isnt "ban livestock and animal consumerisms" it should be move away from factory farming and back toward regenerative and mixed farming. So yes, 70% of antibiotics being used in animals is a problem, but it is mostly CAFOs, or Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations, meaning its not an inherant flaw in livestock farming. Pasture raised cattle, sheep, goats, and even chickens do not rely on constant antibiotics. Again, the problem is

industrialized scaling, not the sheer concept of animals in agriculture. Now, lets talk deforestation, its a known massssivvee issue, but its also largely driven for plant oils, timber, and biofuels, largely in the form of palm oil, coffee, and cacao by themselves make up for a large amount of that demand. Im not arguing that veganism is bad, no not at all. Both vegans and omnivorous humans are needed to keep the world at a balance, im simply arguing that the problem isnt animals, removing them wont fix any of the issues lined up and i am personally ALL FOR regenerative agriculture, animals and plants in balance, local food systems, and reduced waste

[empty basin]

The land would be freed up, though. And we're going to need that land for when we're with 10 billion people in 2050 nd we're going to have to house everyone.

Of all deforestation for food, grazing land is responsible for 40%, making it three times as harmful as palm oil. The deforestation for soy is largely for soy used in livestock farming.

And while all of this is important, let's not forget about the ethical concerns.

You should read George Monbiot's "Regenesis" if you're into reading, it's a great book.

[wanton crest]

Seems like one of the large issues according to vextious is monoculture farming. Couldn't humanity just... not do that?

[empty basin]

Monoculture is definitely a problem, but we shouldn't simplify it to just that. There's many more concerns.

[fallen depot]

you would think, but no, its not done because its smart, its just the only way to CHEAPLY feed billions under the industrial system, you cant just stop it without a radical restructuring of the global food system

[fallen depot]

Not all land is interchangeable. Land used for grazing often can’t grow human crops. You can’t just plow it and grow wheat. Removing livestock doesn’t magically create fertile farmland, much of it would just become scrubland or desert without managed grazing. As for “40% of deforestation is grazing land” The worst offenders are in South America where beef is industrially exported (cheap burgers, fast food). Again, that’s a factory farm/global demand issue, not the concept of using animals. Meanwhile, let me iterate again industrial vegan crops also drive deforestation (again, palm oil, cacao, coffee, avocados, quinoa). If the world went vegan, global demand for monocultures would spike, shifting the deforestation pressure rather than eliminating it.

[hoary sluice]

Actually no, Monoculture is actually more expensive we're just lazy af

[empty basin]

The funny thing about the "vegan staples" you're mentioning is that I hardly eat any of those. I'm not sure how much of a staple they actually are, but maybe you've gor sources for these foods being eaten more by vegans.

Except coffee, but the entire world already uses that, not just vegans. :p

[fallen depot]

Unfortunately its not a point of laziness, but efficiency, monoculturing exists because it lets farmers require less equipment, maximize short term yields and sell into massive global commodity markets, costs actually skyrocket when they try to run more crops on an equally massive scale

[empty basin]

To use Monbiot's example of the space livestock takes up in the UK, he said that if aliens were to land there they'd think sheep are the dominant species. As people take up 7% of habitable land, and sheep take up more than 50%.

Anyway, read the book. I'm getting too tired to go on about this lol, I have been all day. I'm gonna take a break

[fallen depot]

good talking to you pal, you have my respect even if we dont neccesarily agree

[empty basin]

Thanks for your input though, given me food for thought and for further research for my own book

Pls go vegan and stop hurting animals, kbye

[wanton crest]

seems like the tl;dr for now is veganism is bad short term, good long term?

[hoary sluice]

The cost of production and efficiency aren't the same thing. But they do go hand in hand most of the time. The main issue is that even for short-term yields, polyculture produces way better crops. At a week cheaper rate and at away healthier grade. The problem is that we are too lazy to design. Infrastructure for this method because we have become too comfortable with monoculture. Actually, historically, monoculture was really unpopular. Because it's such a big failure. Most of the time, normally it can only last for a few years. Until either a infection virus, fungus spreads rapidly through a monogamous crop kills everything and causes a massive crash in the market

[fallen depot]

my stance is that balance is needed

[hoary sluice]

Fr

[fallen depot]

100% correct, monoculture is fragile, and historically it failed repeatedly. Diseases, pests, and famines wipe out entire monocrop systems. That’s exactly why leaning harder/entirely into veganism is risky because vegan diets rely even more heavily on those same fragile crops: soy, rice, wheat, corn. Polyculture is great at smaller scales, but once you’re trying to supply billions of people with bulk calories, monoculture sneaks back in. If the whole world went vegan, one bad rice fungus or soy disease could collapse global nutrition. Mixed farming, animals plus plants, is historically what made societies resilient. Animals recycle nutrients, restore soil, and diversify the food base. Which is why regenerative mixed farming is the actual long-term solution, not a global vegan monocrop system. I think our arguments, while not the same DO share the common enemy and it isnt each other.

[hoary sluice]

Idk what to say that is like sufficient bu like yert

[empty basin]

There's one point where your story doesn't make sense, though. Most soy goes to livestock. 80-90 billion of them. We're with 8 billion. Even if we all went vegan and would eat soy instead of meat, less soy would have to be produced.

[fallen depot]

You’re right that most soy goes to livestock, but it’s not that simple to say ‘just give that soy to people.’ Feed soy isn’t grown, processed, or distributed the same way as human-grade soy. And even if it were, soy alone doesn’t solve the nutrition puzzle, people would still need supplements for B12, DHA, and heme iron. The bigger problem is risk. If humanity leaned directly on soy as its main protein source, monoculture dependence would only intensify. One crop failure could collapse global food security. Meanwhile, animals let us produce food from land we can’t grow soy on, by converting grasses and residues into protein. So it’s not a clean tradeoff. In reality, a global vegan diet might shift soy use, but it wouldn’t reduce monoculture pressures

[alpine forge]

the problem is not that we are eating meat but how we process it and farm it

please dont preach to people about your belief :^(

like telling people to go vegan cause we are hurting animals

thats just not facts and it doesnt respect most world cultures

íts very privileged to just demand people stop eating meat cause you are upset with it

[empty basin]

Good thing we're eating 140% the protein that we need, then. And youre right that we shouldnt depend on soy as our main source of protein, but we don't have to.

[empty basin]

Animals can't talk for themselves, so it's the hill I'll die on

[alpine forge]

feel free!

[fallen depot]

You’re right, we often overeat protein in the West, but billions worldwide still face protein deficiencies, and animal products are the most reliable way to meet those needs. Replacing meat with soy, almonds, or quinoa just shifts the monoculture problem to another fragile crop. Mixed farming adds resilience by turning grasses and waste into food while recycling nutrients back into soil. A purely vegan system looks efficient on paper, but it actually reduces diversity, soil health, and long-term food security. As i said, again, balance is needed, leaning one way, either way, too far is very bad

[empty basin]

I'd really like to see a credible, independant source proving a direct causation.

And I'm going to agree to disagree on the balance. There's a ridiculous imbalance at this moment, but it's one that almost everyone defends. I'll personally choose an imbalance that doesn't exploit animals over one that does.

What's interesting to philosophise about is how we're going to view livestock farming in a couple hundred years. Another book I read a while ago explained how even something like slavery was only generally frowned upon after it was gone.

I need to start listening to myself when I tell myself to stop lol

[fallen depot]

a source for which point exactly

[fallen depot]

But, I don’t think we need a single study, this is established ecological science: animals recycle nutrients, polyculture creates resilience, and monocultures collapse when overstressed. The ethical problem isn’t animals themselves but how industrial systems exploit them. Regenerative farming shows animals can live naturally while strengthening ecosystems and feeding people. Comparing that to slavery oversimplifies it, one is purely exploitation, the other can be a balanced ecological partnership becuase most of these animals couldnt even begin to survive in the wild.

[empty basin]

The slavery wasn't meant as a comparison, for clarity. Just as an example of how that was frowned upon too late.

And I personally have strong doubts about any partnership, unless it's the animal's personal choice and they get to live out their entire lives free until they die a natural death.

[fallen depot]

as for your "imbalance belief", Balance doesn’t always mean equality. One brick weighs more than one feather, so if you put them on a scale, a pile of feathers might look disproportionate, but the scale is still balanced. In the same way, a food system might not be perfectly symmetrical between plants and animals, but balance is about sustainability, not strict equality

[empty basin]

Fair. I'll still agree to disagree.

[fallen depot]

🤝

[empty basin]

🤝 thanks again for the food for research

[fallen depot]

or course! thank you for allowing this to stay open and respectful!

[empty basin]

I hope I have despite my hard stance on animal welfare

[onyx star]

Honestly 10/10 discussion

I don’t eat enough protein even as a meat eater so going vegan might fuc up my quality of life but it was kinda convincing!

[empty basin]

Compare your quality of life with that of a dairy cow and make that same argument

[onyx star]

Call it selfish but I’m pro-me and not pro-moo

I don’t even eat red meat like that anyways but u get my point🤣

[alpine forge]

red meat is not great for you but it's expensive and therefore I don't encounter it too much

thank goodness

[empty basin]

I will indeed call that selfish

Love that 🫶

[empty basin]

Not so fun fact: one paper found that if the entirety of the US were to switch to pasture-fed beef, the amount of cattle would rise by 30%(because they grow slower) and the amount of space needed would grow by 270%. Even if the US felled all it's forests, drained it's wetlands, watered its deserts and annulled its national parks, it would still need to import most of its beef.

According to a paper from 2014, switching from a diet that's high in mest to one entirely based on plants would cur the greenhouse gases from your food by 60%.

A study published in Nature found that while the global average cost of soybeans is 17 kilogrammes of carbon dioxide per kilo of protein, the average cost of a kilogramme of beef is an astounding 1250 kilogrammes.

[chrome grove]

Off topic, but Nature, I think, is very good for environmental science-related scientific reviews/papers

[empty basin]

I wanna come back to this real quick, to your point about South America specifically.

The research done on this is flawed, as it focuses on South America in comparison to other parts of the world mainly because South America is where it's happening now. But this doesn't mean that it didn't happen in other parts of the world. The problem with this that in other parts of the world, it's already been done - before they started doing research on it.

About your point on the land that's not fit to grow crops: even though this land may be unfit to grow crops, it occupies space that would otherwise restore wild living systems and draw down carbon from the atmosphere.

[fallen depot]

I don’t think the time frame of the research invalidates the findings. Scientists study South America now because that is where the process is most active, but the same dynamic played out in Europe and North America centuries ago. The conclusion is consistent: whether it is cattle, soy, palm, or timber, large scale land conversion damages ecosystems. The timing does not erase the pattern.

You are right that deforestation did not start in South America, but it is where it is most visible today. That only proves my point: the problem is industrial expansion itself, whether for beef, soy, palm oil, or coffee. On marginal land, rewilding sounds good in theory, but many ecosystems evolved with grazing animals. Without them, soils degrade and biodiversity collapses. Properly managed cattle or sheep mimic wild herbivores, keeping grasslands alive, improving water cycles, and even increasing carbon drawdown. Regenerative grazing has even been shown to store more carbon than leaving land untouched. So removing animals does not automatically mean more carbon capture. Often it is the opposite

[empty basin]

Glad you agree it's a broader issue that stretches outside of South America and back in time.
There's several flaws in your response. Ecosystems generally don't evolve with grazing land. Ecosystems are torn down to create this grazing land. They're ruined by the cattle's manure and fertilizers used on it.

The livestock industry has been proven to cause massive damage to land, waters and the air we breathe. Taking livestock out of the equation would mean cleaner air, rewilding of land, less deforestation, less water contamination, less antibiotics in our water and food.

Removing animals would definitely mean more carbon capture, if we let the land they occupy rewild.

You should really, seriously read Regenesis. It touches all of these subjects.

@meager perch I saw you typing, did you want to be a smartass here as well?

[meager perch]

I’m just reading this some new information I never seen

You should post some more readings about some good meat substitutes - with the rise in plant based it could be hard for someone wanting to switch to find something tasty healthy and sustainable without trying countless substitutes

[onyx star]

i agreee!! drop some recipes id be down

also ik we're talking vegan but this all seems to apply to land animals, are we against the pescatarian diet?

[meager perch]

Overfishing has really disastrous impact on both the aquatic and land environments

[empty basin]

You would be if you knew the damage done to ocean life by intensive fishing just to name one thing

As well as the research done on the pain fish are now proven to feel when they're caught, then kept on ice or slaughtered. Keeping them on ice was supposed to kill them "humanely" but research shows it just makes them die slower and more agonizingly. Research also shows that whitefish for example can feel the pain of their slaughter for hours after because of how they store oxygen

It's been said that if fish could scream, we wouldn't be able to hear eachother speak over them

[onyx star]

bru what CAN we eat

i heard that even tofu has negative effects on agriculture due to soy production and water usage

[devout wadi]

As much as this is in off topic, let's not be rude or get heated here.

[pure seal]

Interesting

[fallen depot]

Great points, but a few of those claims flatten important ecology. Many landscapes really did evolve with large grazers; think prairies, savannas, and steppes. When grazing disappears, grasslands often lose biodiversity, build thatch, suffer woody encroachment, and see worse fire behavior. Manure is not a pollutant by default either; it becomes one when concentrated in lagoons or when fields are overstocked or overapplied. On well-managed pasture it is the nutrient cycle that builds soil.

“Remove livestock and everything gets cleaner” is too broad. Crop-only systems drive big water problems too through synthetic nitrogen and phosphorus, plus pesticide loads, and they expand monocultures to meet calorie and protein demand. Rewilding is great where the native state was forest or wetland, but on billions of acres of arid and semi-arid rangelands, passive “let it be” does not automatically store more carbon; in many cases adaptive grazing or silvopasture stores equal or more soil carbon than ungrazed land while keeping the ecosystem functioning. So it is not accurate to say removing animals definitely increases carbon capture.

The practical fix is to target the real harms: phase out CAFOs and routine antibiotics, buffer waterways, rotate crops, integrate grazing with crops and trees, protect primary forests, and rewild where that fits the native biome. That is a resilience plan; a blanket “no animals” rule is not.

[meager perch]

To be fair I was being a smartass

[empty basin]

Like, literally anything else

[devout wadi]

My point remains let's not let this get heated, he presumed you were going to be a smartass before you even said anything which is not great.

[empty basin]

Manure wouldn't be a pollutant, had it not been contaminated with antibiotics and microplastics.

You keep mentioning crop-only systems, but the reality of everyone going vegan would be that we'd eventually need to grow WAY less crops to feed us all instead of 83 billion animals.

[empty basin]

No, Yurei, he was being a smartass in chat before I said that.

[devout wadi]

Again, there's no need to be rude towards others and calling them smartass etc. This is not here to get heated or anything. I do not see him typing before what you said, if they were in another chat then okay maybe they were being a smartass, again that doesn't require you calling people out or trying to escalate a situation.

[stark flare]

We have 8 ex battery rescue chickens. Love me some mostly guilt free eggs. Now just need to find some rescue cows, some land for them, and learn how to make ethical cheese.

[pure seal]

i would like to weigh in my opinions here where i believe that eating meat is part of many cultures mine included. and i do get the consequences of overexcessive consumption of meat but i believe there should be a balanced diet. that and ive tried vegan food and it tastes like shit

plus i like my chinese hong shao rou

shits really nice

[onyx star]

vegan meat alternatives are actually disgusting ur right

what proteins are considered guilt free and flawless? you could almost argue that everything is bad in some form whether it be for you or for the planet

[pure seal]

its actual dogshit bruh

[empty basin]

I'm gonna argue that last argument is ridiculous. That would mean all vegetables, fruit, rice, beans, legumes etc are trash.

[pure seal]

im going to argue that you havent tried the vegan shit from tescos

because that shit is horrible

i also should have clarified its vegan substitutes for protein

[inner tundra]

i think i remember hearing a way to kill fish humanely, its something the Japanese do (?)

where after its freshly caught they use a knife to stab the head in a certain point to kill it swiftly and cleanly

also its for taste cause when fish panic or something the quality goes down

oh its called ikijime!

its to prevent stress of the fish

any opinions on it?

[onyx star]

besides beans and tofu what other proteins are you referring to

[pure seal]

sushi tastes nice and its more ethical

[onyx star]

i literally eat sushi like twice a week

[inner tundra]

yeah yeah i heard about it

i think lobster is killed in a similar way before its boiled so its not like boiled alive

ive heard of meat rabbits being better to raise than chickens so if youre able to buy from a local butcher who does things ethically than its fine no?

idk🧍‍♀️

[onyx star]

if someone lets you cut off their arm and eat it wouldnt it technically be vegan bc you'll have consent

[inner tundra]

what the

😭

[devout wadi]

That's not what vegan is

Farrah

[onyx star]

these are the real questions people we need to wake up

[devout wadi]

[onyx star]

no like actually think about it

by definition

[inner tundra]

idk if i could ever be vegan but when i do have money i wanna buy ethically sourced meat

[onyx star]

but i think the gag here is that ramon is arguing that there is truly no such thing

[inner tundra]

😭

[onyx star]

so im like ok besides fake meat (which also isnt ethically produced by these standards/moral groundwork laid out, the only shit u can eat are literally seeds or nuts

[inner tundra]

i think its ethical to… eat meat in general i mean humans have always ate meat

animals eat each other idk

[pure seal]

yeah its what my family and i do when we have lobster

really humane way to do it

[inner tundra]

we’re animals in the end

[onyx star]

yea but animal on animal eating is considered a part of the balance of the ecosystem, which we don't fall under

[inner tundra]

the best thing you can do is just make sure it’s ethically sourced and humanely killed

[pure seal]

agree because balanced diet

[pure seal]

unless its veal which should not be allowed to exist

ethically sourced veal is not a thing

[inner tundra]

yeah rn cause of how the food industry is built but in the wayyy past we would’ve been part of the ecosystem when we were hunter gatherers

we wont ever go back to that again

but we can try to just again get our meat form ethical and humane places

[inner tundra]

yeah

[fallen depot]

Again, antibiotic runoff in manure is a factory farming issue, not something that comes with livestock by default. On regenerative farms, manure actually restores soil instead of polluting it. And while it sounds simple to say fewer animals would mean fewer crops, most livestock eat grass, residues, and byproducts humans can’t use. Without them, we’d still lean heavily on fragile monocultures like soy, wheat, and rice. and since were still on the chem enhancement card, Lets
not forget that in the U.S. over 90% of soy and corn are GMO, and sprayed with heavy pesticides. That’s not automatically cleaner or safer, it just shifts the problem

[inner tundra]

who even came up with veal man

[pure seal]

real its disgusting

everything about it

[onyx star]

I cl I had it before without knowing what exactly it was and that shit was fire😭

[inner tundra]

i think i remember about manure being a problem as fertilizer because of how water down it is, cause in its more natural state it usually doesnt cause a problem as runoff

might be wrong ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[onyx star]

By all of this environmental logic laid out by vegans we shouldn’t even buy clothes anymore because of the pollution and water waste used there

[inner tundra]

farrah😭

anyways actually i was gonna say uhh

oatmilk is the best plant based milk

😔

costco’s oatmilk tastes fire ong

[onyx star]

i love trader joes brown sugar oatmilk creamer

[inner tundra]

ooo

that sounds good

[empty basin]

tofu, tempeh, chickpeas, edamame, lentils, beans, nuts, quinoa, soy, tofu, vegetables, peanut butter, nutrinional yeast, vegan protein powder... the list goes on

[inner tundra]

vegan protein powder would be made with like soy and stuff right?

[empty basin]

Literally anything that's not derived from animals is vegan 🙄

[empty basin]

peas

[inner tundra]

ah ok

[empty basin]

fishing in itself hurts fish, they suffocate on air before they're killed

[pure seal]

yes and i did clarify vegan protein substitutes for meat

[empty basin]

that's not what veganism is lol

[pure seal]

prick

[inner tundra]

but there’s also fish trapping underwater right? im sure there is a quick painless way to do it

[empty basin]

In my opinion there isn't. Animals never give their consent, because they can't. That in itself makes it unethical. Humans care alot about consent, except for when it comes to other animals for some reason.

[empty basin]

unneccessary

[pure seal]

not really

[empty basin]

trapping yes, but try killing all of 'em underwater :p

[pure seal]

adding the fuckass emoji aint exactly a polite thing to do

[empty basin]

also unneccessary

[inner tundra]

its possible so ig theres a way to get fish ethically

[empty basin]

emojis =/= namecalling

[pure seal]

yeah well the emoji was unnecessary

and rude

so therefore you are a prick

[inner tundra]

woah woah lets chill here

[empty basin]

surely there is but i'm confident not even a percentage of the fish caught for mass consumption is caught like that

lol, chill jm

[pure seal]

oh wait sorry ill make it easier for you to understand

[inner tundra]

definitely lmao

[pure seal]

yes and i did clarify vegan protein substitutes for meat 🖕

there we go

[inner tundra]

but aye if i have grown money at some point then im sure i can get ethically killed fish for myself at least

[empty basin]

thanks, you made your point, pls bugger off now if you can't act mature :p

[inner tundra]

james chill😭

[empty basin]

sure hope so 🤞

[pure seal]

aye im not the one being rude to begin with

[inner tundra]

but most people wouldn’t care for consent of animals ig because it’s in some animals nature to get killed by predators

[empty basin]

This ''environmental logic laid out by vegans'' isn't strictly done by vegans, so there's no point in calling it that.

[empty basin]

k

[pure seal]

good boy

[empty basin]

dude, fuck off for real now.

@devout wadi you wanna step up here too then?

[onyx star]

i was saying it in the context of this conversation, obvi vegans arent the true environmental experts

[empty basin]

plenty was said about manture if you scroll up haha

ok now you're just getting offensive farrah

[onyx star]

how am i being offensive

[empty basin]

i'm done with this actually :p

[pure seal]

aye you started it buddy

[onyx star]

vegans are using environmental research conducted by the experts

[pure seal]

if you cant handle this dont start it to begin with

yeah thats what i thought

[onyx star]

genuinly wasnt trying to be offensive ramon i think you misinterpreted 😕

i was enjoying an actual discussion its interesting

[pure seal]

so was i

[onyx star]

wellll dont deny u were kinda getting a lil testy🤣

[pure seal]

bro started it

if he cant handle shit being thrown at him just dont be a cunt in the first place

[onyx star]

wait didnt this little tiff all start bc of an emoji he used ?

[empty basin]

I used an emoji

Grow the fuck up

And w
alright farrah I guess I misread

[pure seal]

there aint no need for that shit dawg

[onyx star]

both of yall stawppp i have a genuine question that applies to the discussion

my question is: if one leads the vegan lifestyle, primarily for health reasons, how do you go about clothes?

because i know someone who is vegan for environmental reasons but still shops from zara... so im like ???

[meager perch]

That may seem fair to point out the hypocrisy but if you are still contributing I think it’s reductive to say it must be all or nothing, it’s hard to do everything sustainably and ethically in all aspects of your life and contributing in places you can is still making a difference

Some is not as good as all but much much better than nothing

[inner tundra]

but i do think there is obvious sustainable clothes and non sustainable

anything fast fashion (shien, temu, etc…)

im pretty anti polyester clothes

when you get into clothes with natural fibers then the argument is more tricky there

[onyx star]

from ramon: To answer your question: veganism is a philosophy that strives to minimalize the exploitation and suffering of animals to the best of your ability. It's not all or nothing, but doing the best you can.

if someone is vegan for health, fair enough. but if it’s about being ‘moral’ or saving the planet, it seems inconsistent to avoid animal products while still fueling fast fashion

from me^

[fallen depot]

soooo are we done?

[devout wadi]

I imagine it can resume once people are able to reply again

[alpine forge]

actually it uses a LOT of water like with almond milk and is also bad In the way that capitalism farms shit

[devout wadi]

Just without the toxicity

[alpine forge]

most of this is expensive and inaccessible to many many peopl

[onyx star]

what leaves a bigger impact on the planet: fast fashion or meat eaters

omg and how can we forget about plastic??

how dy go about eating vegan food that is always going to be packaged in plastic??

damned if we do or damned if we dont

[wanton crest]

no ethical consumption under capitalism and all that

[wanton crest]

From a quick google search, seem meat industry produces about 15% of yearly global emissions while fashion industry produces 10%

[alpine forge]

THISSSSS

real problem here for ALL of us: capitalism

[inner tundra]

its less than almond milk😼 also im just an almond milk hater in general tbh

[inner tundra]

fast fashion imo

its just the waste isnt in the united states rather than over seas so its not as visualized

[devout wadi]

Well fast fashion doesn't right now

[inner tundra]

that’s emissions but im also like looking at waste in general

[devout wadi]

It's projected though that fast fashion by 2030 will increase by 50% if it stays how the current trend is

[inner tundra]

also fast fashion isnt as essential as the meat industry

at least the meat industry can be like

whats the word

have an excuse for it cause we need meat

unlike fast fashion

yk?

overconsumption🥀

[wanton crest]

Also found that fast fashion emissions is projected to rise several times over. That combined with the fact that some fabrics dont decompose definetly makes fast fashion worse

[inner tundra]

yeah

like at least for the meat industry its technically “natural” (ignoring antibiotics and all that…) fast fashion is just inessential and started by want

[onyx star]

what about the global context of which countries are fucking up the planet more? if i "do my part" and sacrifice an aspect of my life (like meat eating), the reality is that there are bigger fish to fry that are contributing to global pollution way more. in the end we vote with our dollars and true policy implementations to hold industries accountable makes more sense. similar to b-corps?

[inner tundra]

oh god

the damn “why should i do it if it doesnt make a difference” 😔

lowkey cant be avoided

cause i rmb hearing that a lot of the pollution in the ocean at least comes from asia

[onyx star]

and yea that does get into the whole capitalism thing. the world just cares more about their immediate/current financial and economic stability than the future's. like thats a "future world problem, not ours"

[inner tundra]

thats why i dont look at it only environmentally but also what good it does for me too

cause being so fixated on environmental stuff is lowkey depressing

“we’re doomed either way” ahhh

[wanton crest]

Most important thing you can do is probably to vote for sustainable parties, so that politicians can make laws that force companies to behave and make it easier to be sustainable for your average consumer

[inner tundra]

at least state wise if you can

[onyx star]

the tea is that I literally dont blame people/countries for thinking that way. obviously people want to succeed today in the now, feed their families, etc. this is why i like b-corps, though it's not perfect, but it shows we can make money while also thinking about sustainability in all aspects

[inner tundra]

b-corps?

[inner tundra]

yeah

[onyx star]

certified b corps, a standard and certification given to companies that are actually held to high ESG standards

[inner tundra]

ill search it up myself

[onyx star]

i learned about it in college ;O

[fallen depot]

oh yeah, a TON of the modern issue is corporate greed

[inner tundra]

ahh

[inner tundra]

bro i lowkey learned a lot about nutrition, the environment, and fabrics in highschool 😭

learned about the meat industry in my accounting class cause my teacher went off topic…

informative tho

[onyx star]

in THEORY capitalism isnt the issue in concept, it is corporate greed. those two do not equate each other

[inner tundra]

actually leatned about the meat industry in my tech class too 😭

i cant rlly control what food products i consume tho but i control what clothes i buy and how i take care of them at least

so now i iron my clothes everyday cause cotton wrinkles 🥀

[fallen depot]

at the end of the day, the choices we make in our lives are our own. as are the repercussions of said choices. if you wanna go pick up a 10 pc nuggie meal from mcdonalds, you have the human right to do so. good talkin to you folks. much love to all

[pure seal]

Real with the clothes bit

[onyx star]

i partake in consumption with fashion houses beyond belief but i try to convince myself it's better than buying shit from known fast fashion brands

[pure seal]

Main issue imo here is how prominent fast fashion is with primark and low income households having to rely on consuming processed meats and unsustainable clothing

[onyx star]

like ill pass it on to my daughter type shi

[pure seal]

I feel that

Its also that we're lucky enough to be able to have that choice too

I'm not one for veganism I like my steaks and shit but I do think we have to prevent overconsumption whilst improving the inequality that encourages the overconsumption of these goods

Anyways that's my opinions thanks for listening to my Ted talk

[onyx star]

i love a good discussion its so important

[inner tundra]

real shit

ill still devour my pink meat mcdonalds nuggets (reference to that one viral photo years ago😭

[onyx star]

another reason why its so important to surround urself with diversity of opinions, esp with friends!!!

[pure seal]

Bro nothing is stopping me if there's dim sum in front of me

[inner tundra]

yeah

[pure seal]

Call me a fatass I don't care

OK yurei kick rocks

[devout wadi]

LOL

[onyx star]

yurei 100s across the board

[inner tundra]

yeah as someone who was low income when i was younger, we used to thrift clothes all the time but nowadays its not as good as an option as it was years ago

as its now just as expensive and filled with fast fashion

[pure seal]

Idk about you spy but thrifting isn't cheaper here 😭

If anything it's more expensive

[inner tundra]

i said years ago

[inner tundra]

JAMES I JUST SAIF THAT

[pure seal]

I don't pay attention

[devout wadi]

To be honest thrifting here or getting good charity clothes etc is so fucking hard

[onyx star]

also mfers who dont HAVE to thrift drive up prices because thrifting is a "trend" 🧍‍♀️

[pure seal]

I still don't pay attention

[inner tundra]

and a lot of people started thrifting also to resell items

[inner tundra]

IKR

bro a family member used to think thrifting was beneath them and now since its trending they do it now

[pure seal]

My solution is a subsidy to healthier meat options and on better clothing

Not lv type shit but yk

[devout wadi]

I nodded to this but I'm about to have my 2nd dinner

[pure seal]

M&S clothing or sumn

[pure seal]

Who's the fatass now 👅👅👅

[devout wadi]

facts

[inner tundra]

so nowadays there isnt a place to get nice clothing for cheap for low income individuals and families other than fast fashion

grrr trends

[inner tundra]

real

[inner tundra]

ong

[inner tundra]

type shit

[devout wadi]

Chinese duck 😋

[onyx star]

omfg a peking duck SLAPSSSS

[pure seal]

I need to start posting in the food channel again

Been a while since I made peking duck too

[devout wadi]

Yeah lad

[pure seal]

Will have to do it this year

[inner tundra]

anyways lowkey this brings another dicussion on how trends kill things for low come individuals

[pure seal]

Christmas meals this year include ramen beef wellington and peking duck

[inner tundra]

ie oxtail and pork belly

consumerism or sum shit

[devout wadi]

what the fuck..

[pure seal]

Don't even think it's a trend thing

[devout wadi]

Can I be invited you cunt?

[pure seal]

I think it's the fact that its becoming more expensive because of welfare shit

Which is good in itself but drives the price up

So then more people eat tinned spam and shite

[pure seal]

Fuck no

[devout wadi]

fairs

[pure seal]

Here me out right

Keir subsidises asylum hotels and gets cheap housing

Make scholarships more accessible

[devout wadi]

This is a whole other off-topic discussion

seperate from plant based diets

[pure seal]

Knock on effects

[devout wadi]

😭

[pure seal]

Everyone's a critic

[inner tundra]

what

[pure seal]

We got a bunch of rules to make sure our meat products are ethically sourced

And because people want money they raise their costs as they have to take more care of their animals

And higher costs = less money so they raise money to make a living

That's my understanding of it anyways

[inner tundra]

ahh

right its different over here in the us

[pure seal]

Yeah I think we don't sell American processed food here for that reason

Doesn't adhere to our standards

[inner tundra]

😭

[devout wadi]

Yeah we have much higher and stricter standards

[pure seal]

Also plant based diet means I can't get THESE FUCKING GAINS

💪💪💪💪

[devout wadi]

Quite inaccurate but I'm too tired to talk about nutritional science and personal training

[pure seal]

RAHHHH THE GYM LET'S GO

[pure seal]

Yes but I like the gym

So that had to be snuck in

[devout wadi]

Same my friend same

[inner tundra]

also different ones in general

cause all countries got something they have banned there and also not banned

like the us got chemicals banned from the uk and vice versa

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pure seal]

Dare I say we have better fanta

Your Fanta looks like the inside of an orange highlighter

[inner tundra]

thats what makes it yummy

idk yalls fanta reminds me of sunnyD

[pure seal]

The Fanta tastes the same though

In Hong Kong they had the American Fanta

[inner tundra]

damn

bro lowkey with coke tho

i cant take the difference

like mexican coke and american coke i cant taste the difference

😭

[empty basin]

https://youtu.be/LpDJlEQsDoA?si=ghTSGElzXpowZ4d5

That's the last I'll add to this thread

[onyx star]

I fuckin hate the gym

I owe my personal trainer everything she rly did change my life

[pure seal]

What 😔

[onyx star]

i hate being sore

but no pain no gain yap yap yada whatever🥀

[devout wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/homelander-disappointed-gif-4778600627880480619

[pure seal]

That's the best part

[inner tundra]

real

i dont like pain

[fallen depot]

nahhh working out WHILE sore is how you get the real adrenaline rush

[hoary sluice]

So I got 2 questions and idk if they've been awnsered already

1. What if we got medical problems? Because it isn't the safest for someone like me to eat anything soy so what would be alternatives

2. What about availability and culture because even though I'm in the US rn I know a lot of Colombia has a very pescatarian-esque diet and there aren't alternatives for meet/fish, and dairy so what would be you're recommendation?

[empty basin]

This would best be tslked about with a doctor who respects your choice to eat more plant-based, because it depends on your situation. But maybe if I knew a little more, I could dive into it for you

[empty basin]

Forget mest, fish and milk replacements for a second. Do you have supplements, like b12 supplements flt example?

[hoary sluice]

Stuff with alot of processing or high fat contents work as a pseudo emetic to me if eaten regularly

[hoary sluice]

Ye

[empty basin]

*for example

Fat fingers

[hoary sluice]

Fat fingers?

[empty basin]

Cause of the typo lol

[hoary sluice]

Ah lmao

[empty basin]

That shouldnt be s problem, as you really don't need highly processed replacements if you know what to eat

[empty basin]

And that's a relief, as b12 is hard to get without either supplements or meat

Google AI gave me this:

Eating vegan without relying on processed meat alternatives is entirely possible by focusing on whole, plant-based foods like legumes (beans, lentils), whole grains (rice, pasta), fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds. Base meals around these ingredients, cooking simple dishes like chili, stews, or curries using spices to build flavor. Incorporate a variety of fruits and vegetables daily for fiber and nutrients, and use a whole foods approach to get essential vitamins and minerals.

[hoary sluice]

Oh fancy

[empty basin]

It would require you to actually get to know your food, and what goes in your body

Which doesn't sound like a bad thing concidering the distance we've created between ourselves and our food

[hoary sluice]

Well already gotta keep that in mind

[empty basin]

Yeah that's true

Conditions can be tough to work around I'm sure

If I can share my own experience: I don't have a condition to work around but I've honestly been enjoying getting to know my food better and checking the backs of all the packages etc, even checking which veggies are sprayed the least etc. It's a comfort knowing I actually know what I'm eating now

[empty basin]

What about it

[brave flame]

just sharing bdap’s wise words that can probably summarize a lot of people’s thoughts!

[stark flare]

We travelled through some of the poorer parts of Vietnam this year, and it gave me a new perspective on how hard it would be to be vegan in some places. They rely on nutrients from eggs, milk and meat from the few animals they can raise, as the only thing they can grow is rice.

We will need to figure out how to properly feed everyone before we can ask everyone to got plant based. I’m not saying humanity shouldn’t try to reduce/replace meat in our diets, but I had never considered the problem from that angle before.

[pure seal]

Based semi

[empty basin]

Definitely agree, we've got some figuring out to do. Though, in reality it'll never happen for the entire population to go vegan overnight. What can and will happen, is a slow increase of people transitioning to vegetarianism/veganism - and we have little reason not to join them. If we slowly transition to vegetarianism/veganism, public demand will for vegan alternatives will rise and more appropriate action might be taken to accommodate.

Though I've gotta be honest and admit that I have extremely little idea of how the Government of Vietnam operates when it comes to food.

What I do know is that demand plays a big role in the development of things. Because of the rise of vegetarians and vegans, initiatives to produce crops of better quality (with higher protein content, for example) arise.

[pure seal]

Vegan protein alternatives taste like shite

They need to make it taste better

[empty basin]

They taste pretty good over here

I wonder what brands you have over there that taste so bad

[stark flare]

I’ve had some of the alternative burgers and mince in Australia and think they taste pretty good. impossible brand I think.

Or maybe it was beyond meat.

[empty basin]

Impossible is pretty good, yeah

Beyond as well

Redefine is also pretty good, but they're pro-Israel

Not to get into politics, just wanted to mention that

[stark flare]

Agree that improvements will be driven by demand. I hope they progress lab grown meat to the point it’s environmentally sustainable and affordable.

[empty basin]

Oh, same. 100%. I long for the day that I can eat a piece of lab-grown meat without guilt.

[empty basin]

@fallen depot

So I did a little digging.

Like I said earlier, 80% of the world's agricultural land is used for livestock. 43% of all agricultural land used for crops for food, is for livestock - primarily soy.

Research shows that if the entire population went vegan, we'd need 75% less agricultural land and we'd go from 1.24 billion hectares for food to 1 billiong hectares. Meaning a huge chunk less agricultural land used for food, while feeding the entire planet and creating a boatload of space(3.13 billion hectares) we can give back to nature or, if neccessary, occupy with housing.

According to the Good Food Institute, plant protein sources offer opportunities to rebuild our soil and ultimately create less monoculture. Earlier, you mentioned a handful of ''vegan staples'', to which I replied that as a vegan, I hardly consume those products. But I was tired. 😅 Having thought about it a bit longer, a better response would have been: those aren't the vegan staples. Vegans rely on soy, yes, but also a number of other foods. Beans, nuts, seeds, veggies, fruits, potatoes, yada yada. GFI's ''Plant Protein Primer'' describes in great detail 19 plant protein sources, their protein concentration, PDCAAS, functionality and more. You mentioned wheat before, which turns out to be very functional and cheap - but that's about it. The Primer also offers a glance at 25 other plant protein sources. Among the first 19 sources, crops with the highest protein concentration are soy, peas, canola, chickpeas, lentil, lupin, three types of beans, peanut, sunflower and almond.

The primer also shows that consumer preference may be influenced by their familiarity with these protein sources. Plant-based proteins eaten by consumers in 2017 are rice- (81%) and potato-based (80%). ||( @stark flare , would you happen to know if Vietnam could grow any of the other crops mentioned?)||

The 1 billion hectares of agricultural land left to feed humans could be used for much more than just soy, corn and wheat. There's oppurtunity to rotate with these 19 crops, not even mentioning the other 25, to not further destroy our soil but to restore it. Public demand for these crops would fuel new and existing initiatives to create better crops - crops with more protein concentration and the ability to help restore the planet. Take NuCicer for example, a company that's creating chickpea with higher protein concentration and the ability to fix nitrogen more efficiently.

[fallen depot]

That 75% land reduction number comes from models that assume everything swaps over perfectly, but real life is messier. A lot of grazing land cannot just start growing lentils or chickpeas. It is true there are lots of plant protein options, but farming runs on money and logistics, not variety charts, so most demand still funnels into the cheapest and highest yield crops like soy, wheat, and corn. Some crops can help with nitrogen, but healthy soils also need organic matter and full nutrient cycles, which is why the FAO points to mixed crop and livestock systems as more sustainable than either extreme. GFI puts out some interesting material, but it is still an advocacy group, not neutral science, im not discrediting them, but bias is dangerous in these situations

[empty basin]

You must have misunderstood. This would not be utilizing grazing land. We're using 1.24 billion hectares right now just for crops, the other 3.13 billion hectare is the area the animals occupy. If the entire world were to go vegan, we'd not even use all of the crop fields we use today.

Farming runs on money and logistics now because of the ridiculous demand for cheap meat, pressuring farmers to lower their costs as much as they can and to work as efficiently as they can for the smallest buck. This pressure is one of the causes for farmers abusing fertilizers that eventually wash off into the surrounding waters. You said it yourself: demand funnels into the cheapest and highest yielding crops - demand for meat.

[chrome grove]

I dont know much about Vietnam, but I live in Thailand, which I thibk has pretty similar sort of land and environment, there is a lot of growing almost of almost all listed except Canola, Lupin, and Lentil.

[empty basin]

Oh nice!

That makes me happy knowing you guys can grow that

[chrome grove]

At least I assumed because those 3 are mostly imported unlike others with are made in the country

In southeast asia we grow lots of plants but mostly rice and corn

[empty basin]

Do you know how popular vegetarism/veganism is in Thailand?

[chrome grove]

Majority of vegan I think are in bigger city where they can access to these kind of knowledge

Most people I think are unaware

[empty basin]

Unaware of what, do you mean?

[chrome grove]

I mean a lot of people don't know why to choose those kinda diets

[empty basin]

Ah yeah. I think that's a global problem

[chrome grove]

But we do have some sort of vegetarian festival which made my mom a vegetarian now

[empty basin]

Oh that's wonderful

@alpine forge it's a long read, but check this out. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11412377/#bibr15-15598276241237766

[chrome grove]

It's a buddhism festival which most people participate, or at least most I know of, and it offers some great insights

[empty basin]

Despite being atheist, buddhism is my favorite religion

[alpine forge]

i dont argue with that at all ramon

[empty basin]

Didn't think you would! But I figured I'd send you that seeing as you were curious about it earlier

[alpine forge]

one of the problems with the american (specifically) diet is that theres too MUCH meat

which i believe (could be wrong) is from the meat industry

just like how the dairy industry has made up a bunch of lies about the benefits of milk

[empty basin]

Absolutely

Trust the livestock industry to make you believe you need them

[alpine forge]

one could say... Big Meat is the reason we are suffering

good paper!

the biggest problem in america is that its so expensive and often its not a sustainable form of veganism (western veganism)

thats why vegans/vegetarians in say, india, are just j chilling

they have the culture, the agriculture, the environment, all that is backing them up

[empty basin]

It's recently been studied and confirmed that there's no safe quatity of processed meat to eat as any quantity increases the risk of diabetes and cancer

[alpine forge]

sure do you have a link for that?

[empty basin]

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/07/02/health/processed-meats-sweet-drinks-disease-wellness

Is what i have handy atm

Here, this one's better: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-025-03775-8

Nature one is short though as you need a subscription to read the whole thing

[alpine forge]

processed meat is so bad

yeah i have no arguments w that

most processed stuff is bad

[inner tundra]

ehhh i do think milk has its benefits (at least for growing kids) but as an adult yeah it loses value

[alpine forge]

nah thats mostly faked by the dairy industry, like all those got milk? ads

[inner tundra]

for young kids not really but usually they end up drinking the powered stuff with added nutrients

[summer delta]

Just wandered into this chat and have to say people give a mostly plant based diet a try,

you don't have to be strictly vegan but you absolutely have no reason to be eating meat every single day. Like I was vegetarian for 8 years and vegan for three years after that and learned a whole lot about nutrition and learned how to cook some really nice out of the ordinary food dishes along my plant based journey,

Started eating eggs and meat again about 2 years ago but still prefer oat milk and soy yoghurt because it tastes so much better than their regular dairy versions (also healthier). Have to admit that I have been eating a lot of meat (at least for my proportions) lately and reading this chat reminded me of who i used to be and will definitetly cut back on animal products again ^^

[empty basin]

Lovely message

Also can I just point out the irony of your profile picture

[summer delta]

A friend of mines parents have like 5 goats that he gets to look after when they are on holiday, (Sick place for houseparties up on a mountain in the austrian alps in a 200 year old wooden house that got renovated every other decade) got to hold the baby goat there ^^

[empty basin]

N'aw

[empty basin]

Also I was today years old when I learned that Dingo's cute

[hoary sluice]

Idk how to even describe this post anymore

[sudden bay]

original message was deleted

[hoary sluice]

Dayum that was fast

[sudden bay]

So I guess it's over

[hoary sluice]

?

[sudden bay]

it says original message was deleted by whoever made the thread

[hoary sluice]

💀

[sudden bay]

I just saw this thread rn since u replied in it and there's a lot of other messages to back read and I'm not reading all that so I just went to the top to see what the thread was about