Raise prices for plots at spawn

[vital fiber]

im really bad at terraria

[stuck mica]

so this might seem kinda shitposty but i assure you i'm serious - i was thinking of something very similar to this! instead of people buying aisles, we just group together the different products are selling - so like one "aisle" for ores and whatnot, another for food, another for enchanted books, so on so forth - and that way you've got a good selection all in the same spot

i'm very fond of malls 🙂

[hallow rampart]

im so serious when i say i would shut my shops down and not touch spawn with a ten foot pole if it begame a megamall

[stuck mica]

you're so real for that jess

not all of spawn ofc, just like one section

[hallow rampart]

like thatd suck any and all desire to do anything communal with spawn out for me

[stuck mica]

i think maybe it could be worth it to set up some actual shopping districts? like how we have the market stalls and those are as low as you go

but how a while ago some people were building "storefronts" that gave kindof a downtown-y vibe

i guess basically just market stalls but bigger? maybe 2-3 times as big, obviously for a higher price, and like the market stalls, you only get to change around the inside

personally I think a downtown area could be a nice addition, and would work great for people who want more than a market stall can offer, but also don't wanna build anything themself

i hope that all makes sense

[hallow rampart]

https://discord.com/channels/635485167649161216/1233762925290852373 that was discussed previously in a sense with not very positive feedback tbh

plus this will eventually just, once again, push spawn into a field of towers - to which iirc you very negatively reacted to

[stuck mica]

how would it push spawn into a field of towers

but also it was mostly shelved for season 5 😭

[hallow rampart]

if were trying to make regions of spawn into maxxed out spaces for people to work in, like market stalls, its just going to become what crying tower and olus first tower were

[stuck mica]

jess i'm gonna be real i don't know what maxing out spaces has to do with this 😭 i'm so sorry

i just mean like, take some area on the outside of spawn and build up some market stalls on steroids 😭

[hallow rampart]

people dont even utilize the spaces in the stalls as-is, why do we need more of them?

[stuck mica]

just for a little "downtown district" vibe

[hallow rampart]

nearly more than half of the stalls are empty as it currently stands

[livid peak]

just on this one, the market stalls already are basically empty

[stuck mica]

now i just feel dumb af

[vital fiber]

😭

[stuck mica]

i don't even know what the problem is anymore

the biggest thing is the elytras, right?

whether it's what the market rate is or equal distribution or what the fuck ever

it's not hard to get started on the server, it's not hard to establish yourself, and it's not hard to wait a couple weeks to a month to be able to nab an elytra in some way or another

if you wanna incentivize not hoarding elytras, you can set up a shop that buys and sells them for whatever set price and then they'll always be available

and if you're hoarding elytras for no reason other than to hoard them, quite frankly, just what the fuck? why would you do that?

[jolly glacier]

I thought biggest thing was more money sink

And possibly by raising prices more of the money can be transfer around then just too 10 people having 50% of server money

[stuck mica]

you want a money sink, go buy a bunch of dia blocks and trash em 😭

tf it matter if someone has a lot of money or not

it's just an artificial problem

[vital fiber]

everyone on this thread has been going for a different problem tbh

it’s like chinese whispers after 1000 messages

[turbid flume]

aint no way people are still talking here

[acoustic glen]

weve hit 1k messages

[stuck mica]

🥳

[stable zephyr]

Oh okay I’m sorry I completely agree, I didn’t quite get that when I first read it 😊

[gleaming cargo]

ngl this thread alone did push my level on discord 😄 if thats message based

[acoustic glen]

i think its messages based but only 1 per minute

[unborn blade]

1k messages in this chat, so I will just dump my opinion here with the risk that I just repeat what other people said.

1. I agree with the size of spawn and how hard things are to find. Markets are a great way to address this and open a nieche for players who don't want to run their own plot. Agreeing with you. The rest I don't have an opinion about.

2. Agree. The advantage of higher plot rent is also that a money drain is introduced. Rn. you can technically print infinite money at your own leisure. With my current method I can easily get 50k$/h from diamond mining.
   So raising prices forces shop owners to try to make more profit with them, increasing prices, making smarter decisions when renting plots or mining dias to upkeep their shops.

3. Agree again. Raising prices for plots will automatically lead to rising prices for elytras and such. If your shop plot cost 2k/month and you sell an elytra for 20k....Well.
   I wonder tho if it would be good to have a dynamic system of "taxation" where your plot rent depends on the items you sell.

4. I agree again, like I said, I can make 50k$/h with my mining method.

[livid peak]

you mean to say you want elytra prices to go up, with point 3 that you made there?

[unborn blade]

You mean the taxation idea? Well, certain items, like elytras make a lot more money than, let's say boneblocks or GP. So it woul make sense to also base plot prices on that I think.

[balmy lance]

the price increase would just be put on the consumer, just like in real life.

[unborn blade]

Yes, that is part of the point.

[livid peak]

in that case, i think it probably is just 2 fundamentally different schools of thinking

[unborn blade]

Raising prices will have that effect either way.

[livid peak]

im definitely in the school of 'i don't wanna be forced to play the game this way to be able to afford this item i can normally get'

[balmy lance]

yeah but this isn’t real life. things are barely bought as is. people will just build farms themselves

[livid peak]

also a good point, don't want to limit the interaction even more than it already is by having a big world etc.

[balmy lance]

when you sell an item, the prices will naturally settle on what players are willing to pay.

[unborn blade]

That's interesting, because many people on the other hand think that elytras, netherite and endgame gear is too cheap and easy to optain, which hurts player retention.
I also think that minecraft is a very grindy game by it's nature, it's just different kinds of grind, enjoyed for different reaons. Be it placing blocks for hours to make a build or mining blocks for hours to get dias.

[balmy lance]

they can do all of that themselves, nothing forces people to buy netherite.

elytra is the only exception to this atm, which we are looking at a solution for.

[unborn blade]

Then what is the issue with raising prices? If they can just mine it themselfs they will do that.

[balmy lance]

you can raise prices yourself if you want, but if we force it due to rent, then shops will probably get used even less if prices are too high.

we can consider a higher rent, but nothing insane. it’s again being debated internally.

[unborn blade]

Is that the case? SD is full of shops and most times when i go there I see other people around aswell.

[livid peak]

raising prices by choice and forcing price raises on players by limiting stock and bumping rent prices up are very different btw

[unborn blade]

To be clear: I don't want to artifically raise prices by setting a minimum or maximum. I only advocate for higher plot prices and maybe making that depend on the goods sold.

[livid peak]

just to put it into context, since this thread has been made, over 8 shop plots have become inactive / decided they will be closing as a result of this thread

and there hasn't even been implementation of these ideas, just discussion

[balmy lance]

making plot price would also require a lot of manual staff work, or something custom for slabby. it’s not as easy as you might think

[unborn blade]

You mean they did it out of protest? How do you know it is related to this? Is the number higher than usual?

[livid peak]

because im the one who has been asked to mark the shop plot off as inactive

either way, my point is nothing more than we just need to be very careful about what we do as a result of this discussion, because the end result could be pretty crappy if it doesn't go well

i for one, would not like to see the individuality dissapear from spawn, some of the shops there are gorgeous

it was only last night a new player was walking round and said 'wow some of these builds in spawn are amazing this is so cool' which sparked a whole conversation on them etc., i don't wanna see that lost is all

[unborn blade]

Harry, is the number of shops closing higher than usual or is this just a correlation?

[livid peak]

idk we don't keep weekly count, but i can't say personally that ive seen this many shops closing at one time, i had to wait weeks for my first shop plot

[daring lion]

Lad i don’t want to play a financial decision simulator, in the same way i don’t wanna play a diamond mining one, it’s a silly block game nobody should be having to worry about making a rent or the most effective money making method, if you wanna play like that, that’s cool but it shouldn’t be forced on the rest of us who don’t

[daring lion]

i can through speaking to people, confirm the closing of at least 8 shops with more to go soon just as a result of these threads, often referred to as “the nail in the coffin”

[pliant raptor]

No one is proposing that it becomes this, and I once again will point out that increasing rents by 100% can still turn a profit simply by voting

Just out of curiosity, do you think we should have an economy at all? Are there any benefits to having one? Would also like to hear other people if they want to share their thoughts

[daring lion]

You can’t just resolve things by saying people can vote, yes it’s good for the server i’m aware, it doesn’t need to and shouldn’t be to be forced onto players just to own a shop

[pliant raptor]

Yes it should

[unborn blade]

Well, but he is right. You get free 1k$ per day.

[pliant raptor]

Voting=more people=more patrons=dedicated server and other nice things

Again, it's not forced, just incentivized

[unborn blade]

So assuming you vote daily and shop rent is 30k/month you still have the plotfor free.

except in February.

[daring lion]

Test

[unborn blade]

Well, it don't think calling it "financial decision simulator" is fair, basing shop rent on which items you sell is a very simple system. You lose money? Raise prices. Not much decision making required.

[daring lion]

right my signal dipped out

[unborn blade]

But voting itself is not forced. It is inceitivized.

[pliant raptor]

If they don't want to vote, they can also sell things for a profit

I would actually argue that, because raising rents would induce some inflation, diamond mining would be less incentivized since it's currently by far the fastest way to make money on the server for almost everyone

[unborn blade]

And the most consistent way Bdap.

[daring lion]

but it’s also very boring and time consuming, why would you want to make what is already the most boring money maker less useful

it’s not computing

[pliant raptor]

I would want diamond mining to be less useful because it doesn't involve any player interaction

Selling things at spawn and doing build comms is player interaction which is good

[daring lion]

There is no REAL issue with spawn plots or prices in shops, this is a late game server every block item food source can be bought from the shops, so why are we making the process to getting them longer for players, in your initial message you spoke of retention, how is this a solution to retention

[pliant raptor]

Player interaction = more retention

Also more fun

[daring lion]

Making people pay more to own a plot = less shops = less people in spawn = less retention

[unborn blade]

End game gear being harder to obtain also means more rention.
Beside that, are there any statistics available on this?

[pliant raptor]

I doubt that if there were a 10% reduction in the size of spawn active players would actually leave, the only case in which someone wouldn't be able to afford their plot is if they're inactive

[daring lion]

When i joined you could grab an elytra for 8-10k i have bought 1 elytra in my life on CZ it’s still on my back

[unborn blade]

I don't see your logic. Many shops are double, trying to dump their stock and undercutting each other. That is actually the reason why I stop Netherite mining & selling. Not worth the hassle.

[livid peak]

tbf, if the issue is someone undercutting you, just let them do it and dump their stock, if the stuff is as in high demand as its claimed to be, people will then come to you after anyway? that's always how i've viewed

take myth for example, his slime prices have been the same since like week one back in Oct i'm pretty sure XD

[unborn blade]

The problem is that these people have more time on their hands and undercut me all the time. I can't sell at all.

[daring lion]

So what you’re saying is the current shop system punishes player who cannot dedicate as much time as others?

[unborn blade]

But again, do we have actual hard data on all this? I feel like it would be much easier to argue the various points with some numbers to support them. Rn all we do is trade anecdotal evidence.

[daring lion]

Hard data?

this is a minecraft server

[unborn blade]

I cannot generalize what I just said. So no, I can only speak for my case.

[unborn blade]

?

[livid peak]

sorry ghast, i'm not sure what you mean by hard data, do you mean like sales numbers etc?

[daring lion]

so in your case then

are you punished because you can’t spend as much time online as others?

[unborn blade]

Yes, statistics.

[livid peak]

yeah in what sense tho

statistics is quite a broad category haha

[unborn blade]

Well, various things. The problem is that at current prices Netherite mining is barely more profitable than dia mining. The money is also less consistent. The other day I earned like 200k of BDap buying my entire stock, now for like 4 days I sold nothing. Then mining Netherite is more annoying/less chill than dia mining. I could spend as much time as other players do, but other players spend enough time to reupply and keep the Netherite prices as low as they are.

[daring lion]

So your solution is to raise rent so you’d have to spend even more time trying to compete with prices

the logic is impeccable

[unborn blade]

Well, for one player retention. For example time from joining to first Elytra/Netherite ingot compared to total hours spent on the server. Is the assumption true, that obtaining endgame loot later actually makes people stay.
Then sales, shop activity, many more things. I am not quite sure which data would be relevant.

[unborn blade]

You are twisting my logic to fit your point. I pay 700$/month for my shop rn. It is practically free. A Non-Factor. Plot prices are not a factor. If other players had to pay more for their shops it would force the economy in total to raise prices.

[livid peak]

stuff like this is very circumstantial is the problem, some players have been here months and only got netherite gear this week, some people have been here literal hours and have full diamond and elytra already, so its a tough thing to track / base things off but yeah im of the same opinion that im not really sure data could be of assistance

which is what makes coming to a decision on this kinda thing so tricky right

[daring lion]

No i’m using your words to form an opposing stance, there is so many free plots at spawn free to own, and if you cannot afford to keep up with the price of the market price of you chosen stock you have two choices either Go into a different market where you can or leave the price high wait for everyone else to get bored of restocking prices will rise to your price

[unborn blade]

Well, perhaps the number of players is also too small to offer a high enough sample size to produce good data. But I 100% think that it would be a more helpful insight than the anecdotal evidence. What I take from your experience is that player retention seems random and cannot be nailed down to any one factor.

[livid peak]

i'd say thats p accurate for minecraft yeah

[unborn blade]

Didn't BDap say there is only 1 free plot? I assume he checked, so maybe you are wrong?

[livid peak]

everybody plays the game for a different reason, literally everyone. therefore it's always hard to nail down

there's currently 4/5 open plots, with around 25 due to be opened up shortly due to inactivity, so reu is correct

[unborn blade]

Well, nvm that then.

[pliant raptor]

There was only 1 when I posted this fyi, not counting market stalls

[livid peak]

ya i can believe it bdap

im also not counting market stalls for what its worth, theyre a diff entity entirely imo

[unborn blade]

"to keep up with the price of the market price " - Do you mean plot price?

[daring lion]

Have you counted or do you just take bdaps word as gospel since he bought your stock?

[daring lion]

no the market price, you said you cannot play enough to sell netherite at the price everyone else does that’s you not being able to keep up with the market price

[stuck mica]

If you can't keep up, that's not the markets fault.

[unborn blade]

Yes, I trust BDap completely.

[stuck mica]

Market stalls exist

[unborn blade]

But raising plot prices would have that exact effect, making competition harder, so you are arguing my point now?

[stuck mica]

Raising plot prices ain't the answer

People will just start advertising in here ( #1174055871660175380 ) and in chat to sell their shit

[unborn blade]

I don't understand wym by that. How is that an argument against raising prices?

[daring lion]

So do you know anything about this discussion or do you just “trust BDap” because there’s something like 15 free plots atm

[livid peak]

because (from my pov that is) i want spawn t oacc have shops

[stuck mica]

You raise prices, you just make them that much more inaccessible to newer players

What even is your problem with the market/economy, ghast?

[unborn blade]

That was a joke, did you not read me asking harry on the plots?

[stuck mica]

Okay that was NOT obvious

[unborn blade]

I think it should have been due to the context and what I said earlier.
I am not sure how to illustrate my problems better than in the ways I already have above.

[stuck mica]

Then just reiterate cause I ain't scrolling

[livid peak]

tldr so to speak ghast, to save lora reading through another like 100 messages haha

[stuck mica]

Thank you harry

[unborn blade]

I would say the main problem right now is that everyone is argueing their opinion based on anecdotal and circumstantial evidence rather than hard data, which is also hard to obtain and interpret, so I am not even entirely what the problem is even.

[stuck mica]

Okay

[daring lion]

no i didn’t i’m not sat stalking this thread i just return to dispute whatever nonsense you’ve said tbh

[daring lion]

THERE IS NO HARD DATA BRUV 😂😂😂😂

[unborn blade]

"Whatever nonesense" now you are arguing in bad faith.

[daring lion]

i’m not arguing at all, i’m debating

[stuck mica]

Well the problem with all of this is, value is subjective. People will assign a different value to the same thing, and sometimes it can be haggled, and other times it can't

[daring lion]

if you see this as an argument then you’re just admitting to nay saying for no good reason

[stuck mica]

There is no "fix the economy" because that would require EVERYONE agree to the same things and that's just not going to happen. Ever.

[daring lion]

don’t fix what isn’t broken

[unborn blade]

Either way I don't want to engage with this debate style. Dismissing everything I said as nonesense.

[stuck mica]

Then don't, ghast. Stop engaging him, not hard

[unborn blade]

I will, see you later guys. 🙂

[stuck mica]

For the people that have a problem with prices being set too low, no one is making you participate! As a buyer, you're not forced to buy. As a seller, you can set your price to whatever you want. Is it less likely to sell? Yes, but that chance increases once the cheaper shops are oos, which will happen for the harder to get items like elytra and netherite. People who are desperate and/or impatient will buy

And if they don't buy? Then maybe investing a market with such a low return ain't it.

[daring lion]

i have no qualms with low prices

[stuck mica]

I just mean for anyone reading this atp

[daring lion]

yeee

[stuck mica]

This for EVERYBODY

And as a question, at the end of the day, what do you even need more than 100k for?

It's not like we have ranks you buy with ingame money, or any big expenses

It's just some money and there are more ways to obtain it than trying to sell elytras for 25k each

I don't know how much this will apply to anyone else, but I'm sure "primary" sellers also feel (at some times) a desire to just step out of the market. Selling enchanted books and trying to keep up was killing my experience on the server. So I stopped. There's more to do than just participate in selling goods

[daring lion]

Apologies if it came across as such wasnt my intention just poor word choice

[daring lion]

they’re 30k atm apparently

[balmy lance]

the economy exists to have some fun in providing items, it’s not supposed to be this huge way to earn money or diamonds. it’s simply not going to happen

[stuck mica]

^^^^

It's extra. Maybe think of it and treat it as such

[balmy lance]

as an example, i have the whole copper mafia thing going on, but it’s not making me money. it’s just me having some fun while making copper accessible in larger quantities

[stuck mica]

^

[pliant raptor]

I agree with this, there isn't really a big benefit to having more than 100k, which is why we need more money sinks

Imo we should encourage people to engage in the economy because it's the main way to get people to interact

[stuck mica]

So then the problem becomes finding a way to get rid of money in a way that's not meaningless/wasteful

I've got the perfect idea.

[pliant raptor]

Yeah, there are a number of ways you can do that

I think raising plot rents to ensure that owners of plots are active is a good start

I would personally be in favor of making teleports cost money but I doubt that's popular, maybe I'll make another suggestion for that

[unborn blade]

Thanks for clarification. 🙂 Appreciatethat.

[unborn blade]

What if teleports cost money after your first 1000 or so, so this is irellevant for new players?

[gleaming cargo]

imo teleport of any kind should always cost atleast 2k. It should be a special thing and not the norm to do. So people will start using the nether more.

[balmy lance]

2k is a bit excessive imo

[fossil notch]

That will not be nice if the community is not able to see each other because they don't have the money for tp, for me that's against the chill in chillzone, people are mostly here for chilling with friend more than have a hardcore, competitive gameplay of course i would like that vanilla movement being more use (minecart, elytra etc) but i will lost a lot of moment if was not able to TP like i am now.

[summer plover]

hell nah i teleport around all the time to see friends,go to my other bases etc id be losing like 100k a day

[acoustic glen]

1 cent tax on teleports

[jolly glacier]

Or just travel with ur elytra and all the other modes of travel available to vanilla players

Spawn to my Zoo (old world border) is at most 2 minutes of flying, if you want to save traveling pay the cost

10$-50$ per TP and free ./warps usage would be good. You can go to spawn or the resource worlds for free but if h want to lands spwn or player to player TP it should be a (luxury) tax

These commands aren’t the only way to travel and they don’t prohibit anything by being a cost, what this does is reward pre planning and more interaction with vanilla mechanics

[jolly glacier]

You can always use the awesome rial systems available on the nether roof, or use that expensive elytra everyone is so keen on getting ASAP

[fossil notch]

There's thing that happen on the moment that even the fastest way of travel will not be fast enough

[jolly glacier]

How do you play MC on normal survival worlds

[fossil notch]

I don't it's why i'm on a SEMI VANILLA smp

[jolly glacier]

Ok TP would still be available

So you can just be more conservative in their use if you want to save money

[fossil notch]

i just want to chill and not having to stress for money everytime i tp to be fair, it's chillzone not hardcorezone

[jolly glacier]

Same if you were low on fireworks and had to switch to foot , MC is a game of reprice management

Ya hardcore would be No TP at all, the cost of TP still gives you the benefits of TP and just a small setback

Smart TP usage would still be a net advantage

[fossil notch]

Yeah but like i say, chillzone, chill with friend, enjoy the moment, i'm not here for stress for the money, if i wanted to have a hard economy experience i will not be on this smp

[jolly glacier]

SVC chat isn’t only proximity based, so you can chill with friends from across the world

[fossil notch]

i want to play WITH friend

[jolly glacier]

Nether portals and warps would still be free

Also you can just vote every time you come to chill WITH friend, and you can have a lot of TP!

[fossil notch]

Then vote become an obligation in a certain way

[pliant raptor]

Good

[fossil notch]

No.

[jolly glacier]

TP should be a privilege

If you want to come on and just play with friends and chill you can, just would mean compromise on things like TP or buying blocks at spawn

You could say any type of resource gathering removes the chill and at that point it becomes why are you playing the server? Do you enjoy the survival aspect or the social aspect . And TP cost doesn’t remove from social aspect, and adds to survival aspect

Chat SVC and the discord integration make it incredible easy to still play WITH friends

[fossil notch]

I don't understand why penalize the chill player that are the majority of the server, also it's pretty easy to want to make TP behind a paywall when you don't use it much, or when you have plenty of money because you play a lot, hardcore player should have a way to dump their money without penalize the player that just want to chill

[jolly glacier]

Hardcore player should have a way to dump money I agree, make all shop plots minimum 45k

[fossil notch]

yeah and by doing so penalize the chill player

[jolly glacier]

You guys can have some chill aspects , we can have some hard aspects as good compromise

So u penalize the hardcore player

hardcore player oppression

[balmy lance]

pricing chill players out of the shopping district seems more cruel than a compromise

[fossil notch]

No i talk about adding thing for the hardcore player without penalize the chill one, don't play the fool it's doesn't make it funny or smart

[jolly glacier]

10 TPs for one vote isn’t really penalizing the chip player

Voting doesn’t require any ingame skill or knowledge

[balmy lance]

forcing voting is not a positive attribute for the community

if you want to dump money, go burn some diamonds.

the shopping district exists to buy items you don’t want to farm or gather yourself. it’s not capitalism simulator 2024

[jolly glacier]

We talking about player teleporte

And how they have removed some sense of community

It’s why people are so worried about spawn space because it’s the only place of community the server has

[fossil notch]

Grey you keep switching of argument every time you face a wall it's seem... (look like a Red Herring) i will stop here because it's like talking to a wall...