Remove stealth pack in pugs

[hot swallow]

I see a generally consensus for everyone advocating for stealth pack in pugs getting removed. It really isn't fun for anyone but the inf in standoffs and it's too strong.
With this in mind, I also believe we should allow stealth spin to be allowed again and maybe giving it another replacement pack in it's place (utill maybe even a thrust?).

Arguments for keeping stealth: Killing snipers - This argument is valid however i've been on the side of an offense that knows what they are doing and the sniper gets rolled. Most of the time this ends up being an offense composition problem (and in rare cases a skill problem). But IMO doesn't do enough to allow for it to remain

Keeps variety in the game: Respectfully I'm all for new ideas and variety, but pugs are meant to be semi competitive and if you want to do your stealth shenanigans and generator smashing. Do it in PUBS.

Arguments against:

1. It's really not fun for anyone but the inf player.
2. Its a class that can only be used by low ping players so not all the player base can use it effectively.
3. Its VERY strong on standoffs and the counters against it end up crippling the defense more than they already are (4v3) and almost always gives a win to the offense. (Thus not being competitive or fun once again)

Feel free to add any ideas or opionions. I would like this change to go into effect sooner rather than later. Lastly, based on feedback the majority of pug players are for this change and are okay with it.

[hot oracle]

if we remove a pack then it should get its own pack

what about light shieldpack or faster regen like jugg?

and i guess we could have non nerfed inf, like pistol clip size

[hybrid laurel]

we need to see which direction we want inf to take without stealth but unnerf pistol for sure

[hot oracle]

it will head to a non used class

like TCN

[hybrid laurel]

well that why we need to do something about it

[hot oracle]

if 3 out of 30 players use it now, it will drop to 0 xd

[hybrid laurel]

without doing any buffs/changes i agree

[hot oracle]

like there should be a replacement for its pack

theres no class in goty without a pack

[hybrid laurel]

ye but do u want it to be a glasscannon, do u want it to be mini raider, ... etc

[hot oracle]

other than sen now cos no jammer

it could have a jammer pack that lasts longer than raider

or the same buffed jammer pack raider already has

@swift sedge doing double vote

wtf scam xd

[swift sedge]

if we remove stealth, and give it back the spinfusor and give it hp, its honestly a pretty strong class, and you can even cap with it

[hot oracle]

1k hp

[swift sedge]

it already has 1k hp doesnt it?

[hot oracle]

that means 2 times to get hit by a sniper to die

[swift sedge]

i ment extra hp

[hybrid laurel]

like i could see pistol and knives getting buffed so u can use it to shred heavies

[hot oracle]

it already has 1k ye its base hp

[hot swallow]

Hes saying like 1.3 1.4

[hot oracle]

not a buff if it returns to its original state

[swift sedge]

what if we give it shield 🤡

[hot oracle]

currently we have nerfed knives i think

[hybrid laurel]

ye but in original state its to weak i think

knives should be same as goty

[hot swallow]

Is this legit or a meme?

[hot oracle]

id vote more for jammer

[hybrid laurel]

pistol is dead tho

[hot oracle]

so you still can sneak players with lack of communication

[swift sedge]

jammer would be interesting actually

[hot swallow]

Okay thats not a bad idea

[hybrid laurel]

maybe even a perma jammer

[swift sedge]

if it had jammer and an extra 100-200hp it could be prety interesting imo

[hybrid laurel]

could be funny

[hot swallow]

That would be cool

not oppossed it would have to be tested

[hybrid laurel]

cuz its kinda like stealth

just not as op

[hot oracle]

we should measure cloak time while idle

then 1.3x that time for jammer

[swift sedge]

I feel like perma jammer might be too strong tbh, especially since you can cap as inf with the spinfusor if that came back

[hot oracle]

i think it would be fair

it could be interesting honestly

[hybrid laurel]

if people pay attention its still quite spottable

[hot oracle]

it could be a class for walk/slide

with jammer

[hybrid laurel]

would be a counter to getting sniped 24/7 as o/cap

[hot oracle]

actually i think no we need to change the spin slot

[hot swallow]

I would be slow with the buffs but this looks like a good idea

[hot oracle]

cos it will be used more for capping

[hybrid laurel]

while still being able to play against it without losing anything

[hot oracle]

than anything else

idk if it would be broken

to have a capper with 1.2k hp and jammer

also able to disk jump

[hybrid laurel]

just leave it at 1k

2snipes

[swift sedge]

I would be down to try some stuff, cause invis is not fun to play against, and naything is better than it tbh

[hot oracle]

thats exactly the problem with 1k hp xd

2 snipes

[hybrid laurel]

but if u give it perma jammer

its not op

[hot oracle]

that would be just a pth on offense with extra damage

[hot oracle]

read above

what if a capper uses it

[hybrid laurel]

i dont see the issue

people just have to pay attention

[hot oracle]

exactly the main issue we have with those pugs

[hybrid laurel]

honestly i doubt it even changes much for the sniper since its not really harder to see when far away in the air

[hot swallow]

Yeah it doesnt really affect the sniper that much

And jammer still hides your iff so it could be a good kill class/counter to an unaware sniper

Honestly I think the jammer idea is really good

[hybrid laurel]

like when have we ever seen sucessful jammer sliders in na?

in eu there were some occasions but it was never broken or even strong

[swift sedge]

No one knows how to slide, and no one plays jammer xd

[hot swallow]

I would say we make it a personal jammer not like raider jammer so it doesnt apply to teammtes

Or we nerf the range significantl;y

[ruby dawn]

When you activate inf pack make it change your name and iff colours to an enemy teammate

🧠

[hot oracle]

actually

[hot swallow]

LMFAO

[hot oracle]

i like this more

[hot swallow]

Is that even doable

its like spy in tf2

[ruby dawn]

And it turns the player you copys name to yours with your iffs

So sniper starts shooting their own ld

🧠

[hot oracle]

lmao

sniper: im destroying this noob inf

ld: that's me idiot

https://tenor.com/view/finalesfelices-adorofinales-jajaja-adoro-vicky-adorofinalesfelices-gif-9128252

[fresh quarry]

you can yeah, but it's pretty bad

I've tried xd

[quaint comet]

How is jammer capper the supposed suggestion change wtf

Swapping Cheddar to Gouda

We need something that can counter SEN for weaker players. Find that and we good

[frail ingot]

I've always wanted light shield ngl

Light shield ego slides amirite?

[quaint comet]

Sen with shield no bxt half health

[frail ingot]

Inf w shield would shred snipe

[quaint comet]

No it wouldn't

People die as rdr vs snipe now

[frail ingot]

Light harder to hit

[quaint comet]

In fact, 2 rdr O pushing snipe die

[frail ingot]

And stronger weps

[hot oracle]

i think jammer is the better idea

tbh

[quaint comet]

Stronger than nj5?

[frail ingot]

Yes

[hot oracle]

sn7 is stronger right

[frail ingot]

Knives absurd

[hot oracle]

cos we would revert to its regular clip size

[frail ingot]

+mobility

[quaint comet]

Nj5 is absurd

[hot oracle]

i agree too

but no gps

you can gp with inf

trash gp but still a gp xd

[frail ingot]

I've always hated no Light shield in this game

Last 3yr of t2 that's all I did

Literally

[quaint comet]

Classic t2c player

[frail ingot]

Spin nude chain

Op af

Nade

Autocorrect on phone sussss

[glossy fern]

I have always felt like inf provides an unfair advantage for anyone with decent skill in pugs, and can at times make things feel like a mess. I have brought this up a few times and i got fucked, and its part of the reason why i stopped pugs. I believe in more aware pugs where teams can get their standoff together and get a jammer pack out and really focus that inf it can be a good source of variety, but whenever its just a jumble, we barely get set up, and an inf can come in, decloak, and erase anyones HP in a few seconds it has been a big turn off from ever feeling some sense of control or balance on standoffs.

[frail ingot]

Tell em

Ban inf and the last 5 people that played it

[ionic frost]

because sometimes I'm part of an uncoordinated O against an overbearing sniper and inf gives me the chance to kill snipe

[hot swallow]

upvote the discussion I'm pretty sure its getting removed

[visual tulip]

If your O is uncoordinated killing snipe is but a moral victory

Tanking shots as raider accomplishes the same thing

[ionic frost]

Raider gets spotted and gives LD time to go intercept

[visual tulip]

win win situation

if ld pushes you and capper is 10 out you pretty much won the O run

[ionic frost]

I disagree. There are games where snipe needs to be killed much earlier or else cap will get sniped out on route, particularly with an overbearing sniper. That gives ld time to kill me and get back to stand before cap. Or if snipe is close to stand, it doesn’t matter that they push me because ld can still block or chase. If hof is still up, there’s a good chance cap will at least get GP’d and then that’s one snipe and they’re dead.

[visual tulip]

If LD has time to kill you and spawn on stand you either have bad movement, bad positioning or got outplayed hard. I guess inf can be a crutch if that is the case

[fresh quarry]

I mean yeah, it's pretty miserable to get fucked by a class that's significantly stronger than it needs to be, but has counterplay in a coordinated and competent team

[ionic frost]

Yeah that’s kinda the point. It is the crutch when you don’t have much to work with

(The rest of the O is not coordinating correctly)

[fresh quarry]

Well, we clearly don't want it to be a standoff class(despite that being one of the unfulfilled "roles" per class).

I think it'd be nice to give it a niche role, seeing as both PTH and SEN have their own(as does every other class in PUGs). On the other hand, one could also make it a general class- my concept here is to give it Util pack and a slight HP buff, if that's what we want.

I think it'd be cool to have a standoff O class, so the idea of a jammer isn't bad.

Alternatively, I think Inf could have a role similar to SLD, and be a tertiary capping class

[hot oracle]

How many nerfs will a receive xd

[ionic frost]

Solly no play pls

[fresh quarry]

Tertiary capping class sounds not too bad xd

[hot oracle]

At this point i should just switch to battlebit and quit tribe of ascend

[fresh quarry]

Except with throwing knives killing chasers

xd

[fresh quarry]

no xd

[ionic frost]

Which is a team issue but I can’t make people do things. At least I get an avenue where I can make up for that.

[hot oracle]

Now how will i bait and offer my teammates as easy kills without cloak

[visual tulip]

Sure, my point is you are still not accomplishing much as inf if your O is not coordinated. It doesn't fix the problem, it makes you feel less miserable while reducing your overall potential impact

[fresh quarry]

I doubt it reduces his impact though, if he can then actually kill the sentinel

If he has to go in alone, just pushed by LD into uselessness

[visual tulip]

See here

[fresh quarry]

I disagree

[ionic frost]

Why? As inf I can get on snipe undetected, kill snipe in a few seconds, then cloak and either kill LD or get 50% hof HP. It’s more effective than trying to kill snipe in another class because I will get 2v1’d by LD and snipe. Snipe is the most important person to kill here, the rest of the O is either not going for snipe or unable to kill snipe.

Getting spotted when not inf is a guarantee if the snipe is good enough

And if the snipe is good enough, there is no situation where snipe doesn’t die and cap gets out

[hot oracle]

Thats why they want to ban stealth pack

[ionic frost]

Like this is not at all an issue on maps like kata because there is so much cover

[hot oracle]

Anyone can say all they want about using inf like it doesnt work

[ionic frost]

But arx and dx have this as a recurring issue

[hot oracle]

But if it didnt work and it wasnt good

We wouldnt be replying to this post about removing stealth pack

[ionic frost]

Like the win condition when snipe is strong and LD protects snipe is to have O hold hands and push snipe and LD together

But if O is uncoordinated that won’t happen

[quaint comet]

Sending more than 1 player at snipe is throwing but you have to in most maps

[ionic frost]

I can do my best to tell people to go with me or even follow them, but I cannot make them necessarily listen to me

[quaint comet]

Not only that, they need to die at their spawn again

[ionic frost]

The optimal O run in such a situation goes like this: 2 or more people push snipe at the same time when cap is 20-30. LD will try to protect snipe because they know that they will dominate if snipe is alive. But since we have multiple people, we can kill snipe and hopefully LD anyway. You shouldn’t lose more than one O in this process. Then at least one O goes for hof and one O kills snipe on respawn at about 15s. Snipe is shutdown and HoF is at most half health and/or pushed away from stand.

That’s how our best runs went when Evil was sniping on kata. There were other runs where I was able to sneak up on Evil as raider and kill him alone before LD could kill me. But being able to do that is more of a privilege of certain maps like kata.

[hot swallow]

agreed

[hot swallow]

Kata everything is clumped together stand and spawn but D plays closer. In arx sniper is very powerful but isolated

If LD goes to help the sniper on the hill then radier slides super viable

[frail ingot]

Ban stealth, ban snipe, gain players and enjoy game. Thx.

O can spot with their free time since no snipe, better availability for slides, better O play overall, 2 LD can work well together to counter.

[slow vapor]

Banning snipe is not a popular opinion because people reallllly want a dot click solution to letting grabs get out.

This isn't the thread for it, and all those threads get laugh reacted and ignored without due process.

Anyway, I don't support banning INF. Because nothing is stopping a standoff defense from running RDR jam, RDR shield, SLD pound. You know when Solly is going to go INF. Your <TAB> button either works or you have a skill issue of not checking enemy classes.

[slow vapor]

I also disagree that it is unusable with high ping. I think we just simply don't see high ping players using INF.

[visual tulip]

The problem I see is that there is a group of people with 5k+ hours and hundreds of pugs played at several different levels, and a group with <1k hours played and 100 pugs played within the same group of people. I'm sure you will agree that these groups are bound to have a dramatically different understanding of the game

[slow vapor]

Dramatically different understandings of the game? Yes, maybe so yes. And so that leads to... More restrictive measures in aim to make a format viable for less experienced players? It is certainly a direction. Is it the right direction? And is that the guideline for a stealth ban? I believe not. I see it coming from experienced players calling for the ban for their dislike of it.

[quaint comet]

Not only that but different regions and subgroups in those regions

[slow vapor]

DJ made some good points. But I see that they come from the camp of thought that ongoing standoffs are a good thing.

I would hope to see appreciation for standoffs not being prolonged.

[fresh quarry]

This is absolutely an issue- but not a very solvable one, and I don't think selectively banning things people don't know how use well or counter well is the answer

It being anti-fun is a separate issue, but it is not the only class with that issue

[glossy fern]

They are better than someone decloaking and killing you in like 2 seconds and retrieving the flag, it is almost game breaking and for me completely invalidates any effort i put in to get there. These pugs are not high skill enough or whatever it may be to instantly switch to jammer and then it be a whole other gimmick in gameplay. I think it is better to get rid of something like this that tilts people when it happens and sours pugs rather than keeping it and theres a slight variation in gameplay.

[slow vapor]

I had the thought of, if it being possible: to make the stealth pack prevent flag pickup. Stealth's merits aren't entirely lost then, and it requires coordination and a surviving second offense member in a standoff.

[fresh quarry]

Invalidates the potential for Inf slides, but no one does those anyway xd

[frail ingot]

Inf is strong to balance vs sniper; not to win standoffs.

[fresh quarry]

How do we make Inf worse at stand-offs then, without removing the other strengths of the class

[frail ingot]

Tbh I'd rather deal with green in a strike every pug all game than see another inf

[fresh quarry]

snipe balance, slide potential

[frail ingot]

Don't need to. Just remove inf

[fresh quarry]

then remove sentinel

[frail ingot]

K

[fresh quarry]

easy fix xd

[frail ingot]

People hardly use inf vs sent anyway

[fresh quarry]

I think the personal jammer concept isn't a bad one, though that's not really solving the issue of Inf being used for stand-offs but not sentintel hunting

[hybrid laurel]

as soon as inf loses complete invisibility i dont mind it being used in standoffs

cuz u get counterplay then

[fresh quarry]

then there's no point in Inf

go Raider or SLD xd

even personal jammer won't fix the fact that Inf without stealth spin is just raider but worse

well, and without stealth

[frail ingot]

Whole point this post is to remove stealth because it's only used to abuse an edge case of its effectiveness, of which brings nothing extra to gameplay

Can make another post about how to properly fix inf after

We just need this dogshit removed

[hybrid laurel]

just imagine a class in any other comp game that can go completely invisible

[fresh quarry]

ye

[hybrid laurel]

game breaking shit

[fresh quarry]

I'd argue the answer is better counters then, as total stealth is usable in other games where there's a greater variety of easier counterplay

Ex. Paladins

What about adding a delay between unstealthing and being able to fire?

If that's possible, that is

[hot oracle]

in other games where you can go invisible theres not counters

but in this game you have 2 strong counters shield/jammer

[hybrid laurel]

u cant run jammer in a standoff

and how is shield a counter

[hot oracle]

you can if they use an inf

[hot oracle]

it takes a lot damage that an inf can do, the heck theres no spinfusor so it is harder for the inf player

honestly idk why this is even a discussion when we know theres only 1 inf decent player and we know his name, no name and shaming here.

[hybrid laurel]

@hot oracle in 3v4 u cant dedicate a single player to another single player

[hot oracle]

its the same for the inf

exactly the same risk

even worse cos most of the time you will need to allow your teammates to die before you can clutch with inf

and this is not even done by 90% pug players

[hybrid laurel]

ur 1 player more on o

so losing a player has way less impact than losing a player on d

[frail ingot]

There's plenty people that COULD effectively do same thing as the unnamed inf player. We just don't

I mean we COULD of we wanted to fast track the cloak ban

[fresh quarry]

Can we remove stealth pack and give nerfed knives to Brute for an alternative to the Colt

[quaint comet]

The issue with banning it is we still need to find a decent snipe counter for newer players.

[hot oracle]

nerf sniper xd

[slow vapor]

Wow I can't up vote Solly's message

But I wanted to say the same thing earlier

Until sniper gets nerfed, INF needs to have stealth

[hybrid laurel]

unpopular optinion: inf is not the play for new players since they just lose to the sniper in 1v1 even with stealth since they have a hard time hitting without groundpound

[visual tulip]

That and new players absolutely can't manage their energy properly. Unless we have very different definitions of new player

[fresh quarry]

just make all Inf weapons 1-shot sentinel class

[slow vapor]

Doesn't matter if they lose the 1v1 to sniper. They can still occupy the sniper's time. That's a counter to the sniper, and it is often times enough as part of an organized offense to facilitate capper getting out.

I lost to n8 last night 1v1 INF vs SEN, still wasted his fuckin time.

Also, no offense, but you guys are strictly D players, so what the hell do you know about playing an effective offense?

[fresh quarry]

Wasting time is irrelevant if that time is not important. Sure, the 5-10 seconds when the capper comes in is important, but that's no guarantee of usefulness, and it's unlikely a newer player can even consistently find and hit the sniper at the relevant times.

As well, there's plenty of potential for a sniper to ignore certain players in favor of a last consistent snipe, because no GP means no actual disruption, and ADing means newer/worse chain players can't kill the sniper in time.

[hot oracle]

implying a new player will do anything with any other class against a decent sniper

[fresh quarry]

JUG O xd

[hot oracle]

thats the thing about inf, inf is pepega in the wrong hands and can be powerful with the right mind set

but honestly, how many inf players do we have?

[fresh quarry]

Inf chain is hard to use if you're new

That's just a fact

[hot oracle]

how many of those will hit 5 knives in a row on evil while doing a standoff

[fresh quarry]

No spinfusor is like a big fuck you xd

[hot oracle]

ye

i would agree about removing inf

but i think we need a sniper balance

[slow vapor]

Vorpal, wasting time is irrelevant if that time is not important - this applies to every offensive gambit. And there is never a guarantee of usefulness in any one variable of the offensive equation.

[hot oracle]

and maybe after that shield adjustment?, cos you know with a sniper nerfed

shield wont be needed that much

it may improve game's speed

[slow vapor]

If a new player has the benefit of the stealth to crutch on, then they need to only focus on hitting on time.

It does indeed provide an advantage.

[hot oracle]

cos soldier would come back to the field

[fresh quarry]

An advantage that is hardly easier than staying low to do

I suppose the answer is just Inf with Jackal

[slow vapor]

Dude, a new player is not getting anywhere on an O run with a capable sniper on D

[fresh quarry]

as that's not banned, afaik

[fresh quarry]

A new player isn't going to get to a moving sniper with the energy management of stealth, limited speed, and the unfamiliarity with avoiding spottable locations

[slow vapor]

Unfamiliarity with avoiding spottable locations is not even a learning curve. That's something someone figures out in a single match.

Energy management of stealth and limited speed, sure. But the sniper is still getting stressed and pressed.

And I think for the topic of Removing Stealth Pack, we're not talking about someone who just installed Tribes for the first time and has very little experience with shooters.

So it doesn't really apply here.

[fresh quarry]

I disagree here- it is a learning curve because it's entirely related to knowing where the entire enemy team is

[slow vapor]

Are you assuming that an INF has to remain invisible from the time they spawn until they get to a sniper?

[fresh quarry]

Obviously not

[slow vapor]

That's folly.

Then explain what you mean.

Because it doesn't make any sense.

[fresh quarry]

What part of it doesn't make sense

[slow vapor]

It's entirely related to knowing where the entire enemy team is

What does that have to do with countering the enemy SEN

[fresh quarry]

If a light O is spotted on part of the map

[slow vapor]

or longetivity.

[fresh quarry]

And an Inf is in the scoreboard

Sniper will move

And it's harder to get around as an Inf

[slow vapor]

You don't think that

Sniper will move is an advantageous condition?

That's already pressing the sniper.

[fresh quarry]

It's disadvantageous if you're removing an entire O player to make the sniper spend 5-10 seconds moving locations(which does not stop them from basic spotting or shooting O at certain levels of competence)

And that time is not essential either

If the O is still en route

It could be useful if you had good coordination

[slow vapor]

But hold on, are we still talking about a new player here?

You're assigning a skill threshold of the sentinel, by the way with at certain levels of competence

So keep that in mind for this. Do that. That's a competent sniper. Now on the other hand you have a new player playing INF. Keep that in mind for this argument.

Competent sniper is not going to be pressed by a new offense player playing a different class.

Provide me a concrete counter-example.

[fresh quarry]

I went with this for my assumption of player skills

[slow vapor]

Not theories or concepts.

Give me the concrete counter-example.

[fresh quarry]

Competent sniper will be more pressed by JUG, because JUG has the potential to shift to clearing HoF, has Mortars(which if a newer player, won't be great but are still an obvious threat, as proven recently), and has significantly more inherent threat to make it a point of attention

Also 2.6x as much HP

Much more survivability

[hot oracle]

better chain, better gp and faster regen

jugg is bae

[fresh quarry]

Also mortars xd

But yes, solly puts it as it is

[hot oracle]

in a 1v1 always bet on juggernaut

[fresh quarry]

Inf is a lot harder than JUG

and JUG is more of a threat when used by a newer player

[slow vapor]

Okay so your response is

In order to combat sniper more effectively, a new player should focus on attacking the HOF

That's your response.

[fresh quarry]

No

[hot oracle]

inf is just the high risk/ high reward class

[slow vapor]

Competent sniper will shoot new player JUG before JUG gets in threat range. New player can't chain well enough to beat competent sniper.

LD will help sniper kill JUG

[fresh quarry]

My response is that a new player should play JUG to play O, instead of a high risk/high reward class that's had it anti-snipe capability handicapped because true Stealth is too strong

[slow vapor]

Which also has its merits

But it means sniper remains alive 100%

[fresh quarry]

Then the other 2 O are more free

[fresh quarry]

Which will happen either way

[slow vapor]

I think new players have better chance to kill snipe with INF than JUG, but we'll just never prove that will we

[fresh quarry]

How would we test it?

[slow vapor]

We wouldn't

Because it would involve "throwing" a pug

[fresh quarry]

This is why I want Stealth pack removed btw

[slow vapor]

And every single person east of the Atlantic is too high strung about maintaining their W/L or minmaxing their time in comp PUG to conduct anything close to science.

Except for @swift sedge

[fresh quarry]

Banning stealth spin, shocklance, sonic punch, from Inf, all because of Stealth xd

[slow vapor]

The only Englishman I respect

[fresh quarry]

We could just play OvD

Ask Wargod to do JUG vs Inf comparisons xd

Newish to PUGs, but not to TA

[slow vapor]

wargod is not new

and I don't think that's the skill area that we should be discussing when talking about INF for new players. Could be wrong though.

[fresh quarry]

Who else do you propose xd

[slow vapor]

Honestly I don't care to keep beating the subject into the grave with you. My personal bias is hating snipers, so I refuse to support anything that makes snipers happier people.

[fresh quarry]

Understandable

[slow vapor]

If stealth should be banned, so should BTX

Snipers can fuck off and use the phase rifle like TribesGod intended

[fresh quarry]

I don't like sniping either, but Stealth Pack is problematic because people don't like 2 overpowered classes

[slow vapor]

People like 1 overpowered class?

🤣

[fresh quarry]

Well, everytime anyone tries to nerf sniper more people complain 🤷

[slow vapor]

throw the whole game away

[visual tulip]

No offense, but you have (maybe) one tenth of my play time, almost all of which was spent playing with people who have no idea of how to play the game

See? It goes both ways. There is no such thing as a "strictly D" player

[slow vapor]

Wdym. Did you play offense in the first 90% of your playtime and just at our paths crossing become a strictly D player?

🤣

[fresh quarry]

Jack is one of the best O players rn ime

[slow vapor]

And yeah you can talk shit about skill difference if you want, Jack, but I have significantly more than 1/10th of your playtime.

Significantly.

With all due respect.

5K hours. Please don't tell me you've played this game for more than 10K

[visual tulip]

My bad, I was not aware. You do still play and think like someone with less than 1/10th of my play time. And your play time in pugs is definitely way less than 1/10th of mine, and again, with way average player level. I'm not even flaming you here, I'm calling it how I see it

[slow vapor]

I have 400 games

I don't play like someone with 1/10th of your time

No thanks

You just hog the fucking HOF role every time you're on my team

so I have to work on my shitty O play

I'm flamed now, buddy. It's 3 late'

[visual tulip]

I'm not saying your opinion is invalid, I'm saying you calling other players' opinion invalid because they are "strictly D" players is very dumb

[slow vapor]

Yeh

You're right.

It was meme talk friendo

I put it in italiacs 😉

So you've played how many PUGs, though?

[hot oracle]

im going to invalid opinions based on their national food

like this italian guy, he thinks he has good food but all he got was tomatoes thanks to my south americans bros

without tomatoes they would have mid opinions xd

[slow vapor]

without tomatoes Italian food would just be... German and French, right

:(

Solly has a point I think

[hot swallow]

or have the ping to do this 🤣

[quaint comet]

It's more about the opportunity to approach a sniper at all

I've seen recent games where sniper 2v1s 2 O and kill cap

That's not even new people on O either

It's a shit class, it doenst do the job effectively. But it lets them atleast get near

[hot swallow]

Guys dont make the thread toxic. We veering from the main point. The point was the focus on inf and not snipe. If we wanna talk about snipe we can make another thread. We have a lot of issues and the main thread goes back to some players are just really good at certain things or just at the game in general. We have a lot of long term players and a lot of new players and realize that there is some skill disparity for a lot of things. The reason inf was brought up was that it wasn't competetive and the counter play was not efficient enough to be competetive. It wasnt fun for people to play against because the class was designed for a pub version of the game.

It was supposed to be a generator class

[boreal bloom]

I really like the idea of replacing stealth pack with jammer on inf + resetting the other buffs/nerfs we've done to the class.

Jammer is basically balanced stealth pack in a lot of ways

[fresh quarry]

And then what?

They switch to SLD after calling in an invo?

[boreal bloom]

I also think the inf jammer could just be identical to rdr jammer.

[snow portal]

Good memes

[slow vapor]

Wait wait wait. I made a thread about snipe. And it got laugh reacted. By you.

Sorry I just need to keep everyone honest here.

You can't really talk about INF without talking about snipe. The two are locked in an eternal romance of imbalance.

[hot swallow]

Snipe

is a strong class.

But its necessary to keep the flow state of the game to be better.

for Pugs

also pretty counterable too....

[quaint comet]

It is?

[hot oracle]

i wonder if role lock sniper and 12s respawn could balance sniper xd

at least you wont have players switching off sniper to go ld and just chase after they die and use rage xd

but also would make standoffs a bit rough cos you would be like 1 player down

[visual tulip]

O snipe standoff is literally meta

Switching off snipe to chase is throwing 99 times out of 100

[hot oracle]

O snipe is not allowed already xd

[wispy carbon]

Ive always felt d snipe on standoffs is stronger than switching, you can dish out so much damage against O and force them to lose sync by having to slow down/take wider paths

Unless all enemy O reach you then you have to switch or get rekt

[quaint comet]

I focus snipe when crashing 90% of the time because of how strong they are in that position

[slow vapor]

You guys wanna like, not talk on the snipe thread I made

or

make your own with more popularity or something

[frail ingot]

I don't think snipe is "necessary " so much as it's what we've been used to. I'm of the mindset the game would be more enjoyable if we made balance changes to make other things more capable of picking up the slack after removing snipe entirely.