#OOTB Heavy Nerf

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

fallow flame
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a huge part is the movement yea

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the ability for heavies to run away is so strong

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on top of having no way to keep them low on hp they're so annoying to deal with

solid carbon
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imho heavy ends up feeling far more mobile than a med, and the idea that taking damage = energy recharge is rewarding someone for failure/rewarding someone when they should be punished

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I check out old footage where I'm chasing mortar heavies and I'm barely keeping up on energy but they turn a corner and fly hundreds of meters out on the energy charge I just exploded into them

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Light classes can easily redirect in a fight with thrust pack, heavies have that energy advantage, meds are stuck with no particular energy boost or directional effect above baseline

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Compared to thrust, low heavy mass and recharge on damage, it's very little in my experience playing medium D.

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Playing light D is the only way I can personally manage chasing mortar O, but then I'm chomped by a single disk

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Common scenario;
Heavy O on top of hill - doesn't have to get too close, my HOF will feel it hard enough.
Gotta get on top of hill. Best option, don't be seen so you can walk up and conserve energy, but that's not reliable. Get to the top, energy is low, and you have inertia in one direction. Heavy notices, maybe you tag them for damage (and give them energy) and they head off in a perpendicular direction.
Med doesn't have any good way of changing direction to chase, and doing that manually means even less energy. Meanwhile heavy isn't particularly mass penalized and will regen their energy every time you tag them on the chase, getting further and further.

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What are the details of mass for heavies in OOTB vs GOTY?

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I could see keeping energy regen on hit, if the energy was at least a little less effective at getting them airborne, way beyond what normal med regen can manage

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some maps in particular will consistently put medium D on low ground, too

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Relative to OOTB?

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kk

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Let me try to get a clip or two that showcases what I mean

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Oh can't upload in here?

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So Tony comes up to sniper hill and shells my HOF.
I fly up as he crosses down aqueduct, comes to full stop at vehicle pad. I arrive with ~50% energy, he has enough to take off, do a full airborne redirect and skii down, then enough again to fully clear the opposite hill, then enough again to fly way up high and do a complete upwards maneuver to redirect his movement, at which point I give up because I can't compete with that regen and I'm consistently locked in my direction of travel in a way he doesn't seem to be.

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fuk it's broken

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Good aim? No. Lossy jetting? Yes.
Regardless this is a consistent feeling that medium suffers from inertia in a way unique to med and therefore can't react the way a heavy does.

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I think the mass is probably critical because it makes each unit of energy so cost effective, and it seems to let them turn on a dime

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It's like you have to constantly be above and ahead of the heavy but when you're ahead he just changes heading and you're behind again

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And if you ignore them, your HOF gets minced

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or you capitalize on your position, hit them with your disk and arx or something, which gives them all the energy they need to get out

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Hell maybe the answer is to make meds less massive and more responsive

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

dusty blaze
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I wish there was a way to make potential energy only work for self impulse

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I've always thought it was stupid to be rewarded for getting shot

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but having some option for mobility is important for at least getting to the other side

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and most of the time people like khorgaar are also only using utility pack so they don't get potential

simple lark
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how does potential energy work? is it just a percentage of dmg taken gets converted to energy? and does potential energy only proc from impact weapons?

solid carbon
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afaik yes only explosions which is pretty much everything in mixer town

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imho having played a bit of each class weight, I think that a decision in the agility of all weights is needed:
Do you raise the mediums to be as agile as the other two (lights are low mass, thrust pack, etc, heavies have relatively low mass and tons of energy), or do you decide that agility belongs to the lights only and hard kill heavy mass so that their jetpack is expensive to use.

Playing a light, I'm amazed at my ability to recover on vertically challenging maps (like dangerous crossing defence, you're always getting back up). Playing a heavy, I'm amazed at my ability to stay airborne in battle.
Medium is constantly fighting its own weight - just heavy enough to be stiff when trying to fine-tune something like catching a desperate flag throw, just slow enough on the regen to try to outrun a heavy.

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I would play exclusively light for defense, if it weren't for the one-shot blue plate risk, because I can do so much more with it in so much less time.

burnt raptor
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From what I've gathered here are the options:
a) Lower heavy max energy
b) Lower heavy energy regen
c) Remove damage to energy on energy pack
d) Increase heavy mass
e) Buff medium mobility
f) Don't change anything, remove the heavy limit, see what the meta turns into

mellow smelt
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I don’t think any of these will solve the problem. Heavy limits exist because it’s ass when 5 heavies can mortar stand at the same time. Heavy mobility can be annoying to deal with, but that only changes how long a heavy is alive when they are engaged. You still have to go to each heavy and kill them which takes time for geometric reasons. During that time they are able to spam stand with long range mortars that do 700+ dmg. Imo if heavies didn’t have mortar, they would not be enough of a problem to impose a heavy limit

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However, I think banning mortar or putting a mortar limit is dumb, so I kinda think we should just deal with a heavy limit

solid carbon
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Is there an angle for increasing reload time, or slowing down swapping to and from the mortar?

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Without lowering the mortar skill ceiling...

fallow flame
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Yea

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Just having the ability.to kill them if the mispositioned

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It's so easy for them to run to one of three spots

burnt raptor
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What about lowering max ammo on mortar?

solid carbon
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Can we get the under the hood numbers on the different masses?

But otherwise I think we're all in agreement that the target is to reduce the capability of the heavy to mortar indiscriminately, yes?

I'd say for now the easiest way to approach that is to increase heavy mass, for the following:

  • Decreased acceleration from standstill
  • Decreased flight time from standstill
  • Increased airborne 'turn radius'
  • Increased 'brake' distance

So in the life cycle of a heavy, from spawn...
Slower to get going, more challenging skiing to get to destination, potential energy/mass management to get to the high ground.

Once targeted by a medium, less ability to just take off and leave at 90 degrees, and to keep doing it over and over, because as long as the chaser isn't capable of pinning down the heavy, mortar shots can be casually lobbed back at the stand - so they have to be made 'incapable of firing' faster, or maybe incapable of ignoring the out-of-energy chaser because they're actually capable of cutting them off and threatening them.

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No need to change the speed or handling of the weapon, mess with perk/self impulse only, and energy pools.
Mass impacts energy enough on its own

burnt raptor
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I like the idea of nerfing the max ammo to 3-5.

  • Solves mortar spam
  • Doesn't change the feeling of movement that everyone has spent years getting used to
  • Encourages fighting instead of running away
  • Shouldn't affect HOF because they get lots of nugs
fallow flame
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i think 10 is fair tbh

solid carbon
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Some thoughts:

  • iirc utility pack doubles ammo count so 10 mortar shots -> 20 mortar shots which I think is enough to stay in the realm of indiscriminate mortar, and also keeps the issue of having a low-mass heavy (-15% mass). Maybe 5 is the right value?
  • hopefully the outcome of no heavy limit isn't just giant heavy D stacks, those are hard to break purely on the staying power of 2500 HP, with marginal mobility drawbacks
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But also, if unlimited heavy with a limited mortar ends up showing that mediums can't keep up that'll be good data.
If not then great.

dusty blaze
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every mortar spammer already only uses utility so an energy pack nerf has no effect

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but ya heavies on d are one of the main reasons the limit was made

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2 hof is absolutely cancer to play against and just boring

solid carbon
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I would think your baseline heavy should feel unpleasantly heavy in the air. Low jet speed, low distance, slow turns, which then is buffed up either with utility pack mass reducer or energy pack combat energy regen.
Right now baseline heavy might be too light.

either way, mortar ammo=5 is an easy thing to try first

dusty blaze
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yeah I mean bottom line is it's still a bandaid fix to medium d misplays

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letting a mortar spammer run is a consequence of whiffing the burst and not being able to finish them is just missing after

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realistically medium especially only on D will beat a heavy

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smaller hitbox, better air movement, burstier and more consistent guns

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arx has always been one of if not the best explosive weap

solid carbon
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Yes there is a skill issue there but I'm not sure I'm feeling the better air movement on med, and you don't always get a chance for a burst so basing your kill potential on that... I don't know.
If they don't see you, great. If they do, you have to arrive quick, at which point you have that problem of having to halt inertia to move in the opposite direction because they're not dumb.
And then you get into that question of why are they so damn mobile once they get moving?

dusty blaze
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arx is the burst it doesn't require to sneak up on them

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3 arx and a disk will kill all without moving the enemy at all

solid carbon
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If I suck at midairs past 50 meters they're capable of moving in such a way as to never let me close the distance nor move in such a way as to reliably gp, which is weird for a weight class difference

dusty blaze
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otherwise get them to like 400hp and then just gp

dusty blaze
solid carbon
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dj is nice and all but if I'm going to operate on an HP penalty for mobility I'll just play thrust pack light and actually be able to counter

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and take the one-disk deaths

dusty blaze
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heavy mobility still comes from hp penalty tho

solid carbon
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In what way?

dusty blaze
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in almost every case they're using the impulse from you shooting them to run so positioning where you don't want them to go is important

solid carbon
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I don't have the luxury of positioning where I don't want them to go, I can barely keep up

dusty blaze
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before you fight

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or during

solid carbon
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I'm not at your tier, but I don't think I'm entirely bad at the game here, I'm not able to keep up and fight, and the consistent assumption you're putting on me is that I'm not being counterplayed

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Counterplayed in a way where I would think I would be able to leverage my weight class mobility to fight back, but I can't

dusty blaze
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I usually move around the person on the kata mid hill to force them into skiing down mid or towards base instead of the side

solid carbon
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Ski as fast, fly as far, and so much HP than any lapse in tickle damage is a fresh start

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That's an expensive move to be doing all match long, which you will.

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Expensive in time, setup, and energy cost

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He'll be back in 30 seconds at which point you'll have to repeat your setup, time and time again

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This is all I end up doing on medium D.

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Position, chase, repeat, and never catch up

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And all that time spent is either him lobbing mortars back, or his buddy doing it unchallenged, and my hof is mince

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  • it's the reason why flak has to stay relevant as pinger
dusty blaze
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it's not really an energy loss tbh it's just slightly changing where you come up the hill

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any time I've played med d / fight heavies as light I spend more effort out positioning rather than out aiming

solid carbon
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it's 99% out positioning because they don't have to aim back they usually just poop mortar shells at their feet in the hopes you ski into them...........

dusty blaze
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idk I'd like to see game povs of this type of thing because I personally never have the problem and want to see the difference

solid carbon
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How much of your approach is dependent on your scoreboard-topping long-distance midair ability though?

dusty blaze
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depends really

solid carbon
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Hm I had a really boring match on that hovery frosty map, did I record that one...

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it was a really mind-numbing example of that for like 25 minutes

dusty blaze
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my aim mainly gives me leeway to he more aggressive

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be

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otherwise it's still better to play it safer when the option exists

solid carbon
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/shrug
I play as aggressive as I can and still end up too slow, too low

dusty blaze
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I'd rather know I'll hit the full combo on a heavy but have to spend 3 sec moving around him than trying to hope I hit them fast enough

solid carbon
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3 sec >.> I don't think we're thinking of the same maneuvers

dusty blaze
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depends on how close you fight

solid carbon
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How close will they let me
(A: not close)

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but to clarify:
if the heavy is primarily fighting then there's no problem
but if the heavy is primarily running then all the above

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with caveat that you let them run = they mortar

dusty blaze
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most cases they aren't just running before the fight even happens

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and if they are that's a win for you

solid carbon
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wym?

nimble grail
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Isn't the strat to just let them run

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Like if they see you and instantly start running that's pretty much a won fight with 0 effort, right?

solid carbon
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the HOF might disagree with the 'win'

dusty blaze
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it depends on the map somewhat but a lot of the time they are running down a hill without sight line on the stand

nimble grail
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Especially if you do what quench was talking about and make them run towards mid/your base

dusty blaze
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and if they do have sightlines then they won't be as accurate with hitting the hof

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so it's less of dodging a mortar and more staying away from that spot they are hitting

solid carbon
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the fun thing about the mortar though is repeatable over-the-horizon shots

dusty blaze
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hofs have legs tho lol

nimble grail
solid carbon
nimble grail
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Well then they either run down the hill or fight you

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Either way it's what you want

solid carbon
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e.g. on the center of drydock, out of sight from pad, but with pad fully exposed

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Starting from low D position, no effective way to get there

nimble grail
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But that's drydock tho lmao

solid carbon
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it's a repeated scenario, just looking at drydock rn

dusty blaze
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idk in my experience I've only felt overwhelmed on hof with 2+ people uncontested mortaring

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with 1 running away its easy to avoid their shots

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a lot of mortar spamming is micro adjusting away from the middle to hit them while they're dodging something else

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and that's really hard to do while moving and running at the same time

solid carbon
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Anyway yes I have that game recorded I'll scan through it and try to visually make the point for you to either understand or criticize my work so I can do better

dusty blaze
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my main issue really is just any nerf to spammers nerfs the aggressive and risky playstyle and also hof

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otherwise I'd be down

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if there was a spam class or something it's easy

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but I personally find the impact on the other playstyles/roles too much for a problem that is at least semi counterable

solid carbon
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I would admit the bulk of my feelings for weight class dynamics is going to be informed from my time in ye olden days, GOTY ruleset, where I distinctly remember the way that lights and meds could outmaneuver an exposed heavy, and I'm not feeling that at all in the mixer ruleset.

aaaaaaaanyway, it's not up to me so we'll see what happens

nimble grail
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Way easier than with just spin at least

solid carbon
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nah disc play memories

nimble grail
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I wouldn't know tho I'm not remotely og

solid carbon
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PTH light spin vs heavies

dusty blaze
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ya I mean that's part of the reason goty is cool

solid carbon
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Risk of one-shot death, but you had that ability to dance around

dusty blaze
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actual class and weight diversity

nimble grail
solid carbon
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and the opposite fun dynamic, brute in the open - slow and heavy but one-shot potential on those lights

dusty blaze
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and basically med too xd

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1250 chunks

solid carbon
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iirc devastator spin had 1k+, then yeah you'd tickle with colt :D

nimble grail
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Is colt rapid fire in old GOTY or was that an OOTB change

solid carbon
dusty blaze
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but people had dlls to make it auto fire

nimble grail
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juan moment

dusty blaze
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some Mexican guy used them I think

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who is juan

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isn't that the guy who lost to solly

left thistle
solid carbon
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I think chicken ended up re-nerfing light twinfusor but if mixer kept 600 damage light twin I would probably play Light D heavyhunter all the time.
Awful for chase but good pressure for heavies.

dusty blaze
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ya I mean light is another good way to finish a runner but literally every light will go chase so

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class swapping has always been super unutilized in mixers

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light is super good at applying pressure but usually people don't push out of fear of leaving rage range or dying

solid carbon
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Oh yeah well I mean accomplishing the duties of Med D with a Light D, so fuck the flag leave it to the chasers or do it when you can spare a rage thrust

dusty blaze
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which is kinda reasonable but if there's no risk of a grab it's essentially no risk

dusty blaze
solid carbon
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Yeah I avoid doing it too much 'cause I feel it might confuse things about who's doing what and why isn't that light getting that flag

dusty blaze
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d is just weird with roles

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everything else its pretty obvious what you're supposed to do

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but there's a lot of decision making with meeting flag, killing x person, blocking cap, chasing, etc

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instead of just shoot hof

nimble grail
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Even when people say I'm doing fine

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Mixers is easier IMO because you turn your brain off and kill shit

solid carbon
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The one that gets me is whether you should resecure flagbase or move to offense when your flag is way out field.
Trust the chasers and tidy up the homebase?
Or desperately try to get it back?

dusty blaze
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ya that's weird

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and super heavily dependent on the chasers too

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honestly it's pretty underrated how important decision making based on players is

solid carbon
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You mean like captain team selection? :P

dusty blaze
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no i mean in game

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like should i do x thing depending on what player is there

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like do i go help chase if its khorgaar chasing vs wright chasing

simple lark
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g a m e s e n s e

solid carbon
# dusty blaze no i mean in game

I was trying to make a subtle joke about the biggest player based decision making thing (team select) is the most underrated because nobody wants to do it, but I whiffed it like I whiff my blue plates

dusty blaze
sterile wagon
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Very noticeable on dangerous xing. Felt like it was much harder to get around and your energy was much less effective

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Heard some HOFs say it was more difficult to get around the stand as well which maybe isn't a good thing

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I swapped off heavy O after like 15 min cos it felt way worse than med