Romanian line suggestion

[fading niche]

In my opinion, the Romanian tanks are a bit of a tacked-on branch that exists to simply exist. It leads to the T-72M2E, sure, but the Polish branch exists for much of that too, and those contain some actually solid tanks. I would argue that there should be a tank at Era 2 Tier 1 that the Poles could use that isn't a TR-580, but nothing is coming to mind at this immediate time.

The very best tank in the Romanian tree is, in effect, a hugely modernised T-55. I know it isn't a T-55, but it's very difficult to not put it in the same category as the T-55AGM or Type 59D as a result. Frankly, it can hold its own against the two decently well, but to call it a good tank would be to lie.

My suggestion, and it isn't a unique suggestion, as it's been floating around for a while, is as follows:
Move the TR-85M1 down to ERA 2 Tier 3. Keep the TR-125 at Era 2 Tier 3 too. Decouple these tanks from the T-72M2E.
Add the three TR.2000 proposals into Era 3.

This raises the question, "What is the TR.2000?". This was a proposal from the manufacturer of the Leopard 2 in the 90's to turn the TR-125, the most modern tank the Romanians had, into a vehicle that's basically a Leopard 2/TR-125 hybrid, based on the chassis of the TR-125 with a new turret.
I know of three, the TR.B1, TR.B2.3 and the attached TR.B2.4.

Now, do I believe that the B2.4 is Era 3 Tier 3 material? Probably not. But it would be a very unique tank in the Eastern bloc, and can probably be over buffed like the TR-85M1 currently is.

The B1 (not to scale).

And the B.2.3

I imagine there's others, I don't know of them

[sly hollow]

There also is a bustle autoloaded turret variant as well.

[fossil hinge]

That you for specifying the size is not to scale

[timid notch]

Is that a Leopard turret??

[fading niche]

Not exactly, no. Although as I understand it, one of the proposals was a simple Leopard 2 turret on TR-125.

These proposals come from the company that manufactures the Leopard 2 though, so there are similarities.

[timid notch]

Ohhh

The Romanians were not in Warsaw Pact right

[fading niche]

I don't know what the answer to that is honestly. It got messy

[timid notch]

It's because a western company wouldn't sell their mbt turret to a Warsaw Pact nation, and Romania has a modification of a soviet tank (Mli-84M)

[fading niche]

This is in the 90's. The Warsaw Pact didn't exist at this point

[timid notch]

[daring rapids]

They were under the iron curtain

Immediately after the curtain and Soviet union fell they aligned their interests with nato

[covert zealot]

The tr85m1 doesn't even have the 1200 hp Iveco v12 engine upgrade it was supposed to have. To call it over buffed when it doesn't even have all its irl upgrades and the arbitrary stats such as hp or shell velocity it has been given being significantly sub par is simply ridiculous. If you want to see over buffed then look at the abrams, very few things in era 3 are as obnoxious and clearly favored by wg as the abrams is, and that for some reason can have an engine upgrade, altough unlike the tr85m1 it would still domimate even without it. The tr85m1 got shafted in the balancing department, as if the person who decided its stats wanted it to be bad. It could've easily been made way better, WG just decided not to.

[fossil hinge]

A. Saying the tank is over buffed is referring to it being in era 3 when it should be era 2

B. It doesn't have the 1200hp engine as that engine was given to the tank in the early 2000s

[covert zealot]

The t55agm dragula has an engine that was given to it even later in the late 2000's and I doubt that the engine upgrades of the abrams and leo 2 are even real. The tr85m1 doesn't have its 1200hp engine because of bias, full stop.

It shouldn't have been in era 2, it should've been given some proper and fair stats instead of being intentionally shafted as if the devs were scared of it standing a chance against their precious abrams.

[fading niche]

The 1200 HP engine would not save the TR-85M1. If anything, it's actually rather mobile currently.
Instead, it is let down by the modestly upgraded armour and the gun being effectively a modernised D-10T from WWII.

It's unfortunate to say, but the Era 2 T-55AM2B would do better in Era 3 if given the same ammunition than the TR-85M1.

[covert zealot]

Please don't try to gaslight me. It's not rather mobile, it has a sub par hp/ton ratio and sub par terrain resistances. It's barely keeping up at best. It's just sluggish. We're talking of a 340 hp increase here, that's a big difference. And the engine upgrade is just the tip of the iceberg of things it should've had better but it doesn't. It also needs better shell velocity, alpha dmg, hp and terrain resistances to name what's most obvious, as those are arbitrary stats where it was given very sub par values.

The t55am2b cannot use the tr85m1's ammo because the tr85m1's a308 is a unique gun, not a d10t. Romania has both tanks, and only the tr85m1 uses the 500+ mm pen shell.

As for the armour, the japanese tanks were given double their irl armour, the tr85m1 was not. Yet anoher thing they could've done that they just decided not to. Why are the t55agm and the japanese tanks worthy of these treatments but the tr85m1 is not?

[fading niche]

Look, I am not against the engine upgrade. You are more than welcome to create a thread about TR-85M1 buffs, as the primary purpose of this thread is the TR.2000s in Era 3.

I actually quite enjoy the TR-85M1 as it is in-game. I do believe that the mobility is adequate, and I sporadically take it out for fun. The engine, I have no qualms about an upgrade. Go for it for all I care, make my fun more fun.

But I need you to face reality about the gun. It uses the same ammunition case as the D-10T. 100 x 695 mmR. Other Soviet linked guns that aren't the D-10T, such as the BS-3 also use this standard, and as far as I can tell the A-308 offers no additional advantage over the older D-10T family. The 530mm ammunition is not unique to the TR-85M1, and indeed any T-55 could fire it. Heck, you find a working one, and that Egyptian T-34/100 could. I wouldn't, but it's possible.

This, and this alone, is my biggest gripe with it being in Era 3. The gun simply does not the performance reserve available.

As for the Japanese tanks, dunno. Ask WG. Their armour thicknesses are classified. The base TR-85 is well known for 200mm RHA equivalent. The additional armour is probably not known, but it isn't going to be enough against the multitude of Rh-120 guns floating around.

Oh, this might be a relevant tank for you, but as far as I can tell, Romania locally modified some of their T-55s, including giving them the A-308. Would make a nice enough Era 2 premium, or a TT preceding the TR-125 if the TR-85 is leading into an Era 2 TR-85M1

[covert zealot]

Um, those are just t55am2's that Romania got from the Czech republic, and they use the d10t, not the a308. Romania didn't modernise them as far as I know, Czechoslovakia did. Those are the tanks I said Romania also has that don't use the 530 mm pen ammo that the tr85m1 uses.
The a308 may have the same caliber as the d10t, but the 530mm pen shell was made with only the a308 in mind and as far as I know irl it is used only on the a308. It's one of the main reasons why in the romanian army it is the tr85's that are regarded as the superior tanks, and not the t55am2's, with the tr85m1 being the tanks used the elite battalion of the army. Romania has 54 abrams m1a2 tanks that are supposed to be delivered, and it's a battalion of t55am2 tanks that will be retired and replaced by the m1a2, not the tr85m1's and not even the non-modernised tr85's.

As for benefits, the a308 is more accurate than the d10t aside from being able to use better ammo.

[fading niche]

Is that the gun itself, or just more advanced manufacturing and fire control systems?

Because I would consider the Czech manufactured D-10T variants equivalent.

I have seen nothing indicating any improvement in the gun, other than it being Romanian manufactured. I also know Romania lost access to Soviet knowledge during this time period, so I do not know what their manufacturing standards were like.

Also, just went into the company webpage, and the M309 is designed for all the T-55 family. I imagine that means a SU-100 could fire it.
https://www.elbitsystems.com/tank-ammunition-100mm-series

[covert zealot]

Well, there isn't much information on the subject. What I do know is that if you take a t55 and a tr85 and test them, the tr85 will turn out to be more accurate, and I've never heard of the tr85m1's shell being used by a gun that isn't the a308. The only way I know how to distinguish them is that the a308 is shorter, as internal differences are obviously not visible.

[fading niche]

A shorter gun in the same calibre would usually imply reduced performance.

As for the M309 round, it's probable only Romania bought it. I imagine it's the only nation fielding a 100mm gun as their mainline that can afford it, as most other nations swapped to 105mm, 120mm or 125mm guns.
Oftentimes still the T-55, as China and Israel offer accessable upgrades for the family

[covert zealot]

It's a balancing act between many factors. Longer guns may usually be more accurate, but if longer always meant more accurate then all guns would be longer than the tank itself like that of the trinity mk2. The a308 was one such case where shorter turned out to be better.

[broken bear]

Seeing the tr 2000 tanks would be cool

Besides those are there any others we could get

I have basically zero knowledge on thier armor heck before they were added to wotma didn't even know they haf thier own stuff figured as a former soviet aligned country figured would've jusy used t72,s

[covert zealot]

The TAA1 and OAPR 89, td's. The tr77pt,
the original mli84, non-modernised one and there were also projects to mount 120 mm and 150 mm guns onto t34-85's. Off the top of my mind.

I'd also love to see the tr b2's. They're very interesting imo.

[broken bear]

There was some td,s are they atgm platforms or conventional gun td,s

[covert zealot]

Conventional gun. The TAA1 has a 100mm or 125mm autoloader and the OAPR89 has 122mm gun that can be used as both direct fire (td) and artillery.

[broken bear]

Would those be era1 or era2?

[covert zealot]

Era 2 for the TAA1 and era 1 for the OAPR89.

[broken bear]

Has 89 in the name im assuming means was made in 1989

[covert zealot]

It does.

[broken bear]

Which would mean era3 territory

[covert zealot]

It's nowhere near good enough for era 3.

Era 2 at best.

The tr125 was also made in 1989.

[fading niche]

Romania was, unfortunately, like China in being a couple decades behind their peers.

Not through lack of effort, as the TR-77 proves.

[broken bear]

What does the tr 77 look like

Is that like thier version of a leo2

[covert zealot]

It's just the real name of the tr580.

[broken bear]

Ah

[fading niche]

TAA is a 125mm, no?

[broken bear]

Was thinking of a comparison to the Chinese project of the wz-111 or whatever that medium is in era2 with the quad missile pods

Basically thier attempt at a leo1 or something

[covert zealot]

The project considered both a 100mm and a 125mm.

[fading niche]

Let's go with the 125mm.
Still Era 2, as Romania didn't get the fancy stuff, but it would be unique

[covert zealot]

I agree with that.

[fading niche]

That's the WZ-122

[covert zealot]

We could have both tho.

[broken bear]

Ah yeah that's it

[covert zealot]

As for fancy stuff, it does have an autoloader.

[fading niche]

Two Era 2 Romanian branches?
T-55 modernisation leading into TAA 125mm leading into TR-125?
The other branch being the TR-85 family, both branching into the TR.Bs

[broken bear]

We do have a very distinct lack of autoloader tanks in cw

[fading niche]

100mm TAA as a premium

[fading niche]

We actually have loads, they just don't have the cassette type that we know

[broken bear]

Technically all the t series tanks should be autoloader,s

[fading niche]

They are. They don't have a loader position

[broken bear]

Well I ment in game they should function as one because they just work like a normal single shot tank

[fading niche]

They do function as one, because you cannot kill the loader.

They aren't clip or cassette Autoloaders. Their entire ammunition capacity is in the Autoloader. Making them mechanically Autoloaders would likely make them even worse than they already are too

[broken bear]

Would be funny looking seeing like 50+ rounds in a one comically long clip

[covert zealot]

Well, you kind of can, as that's pretty much how it is, except it's round like a carousel and right beneath the crew, not exactly the safest or most protected place to store ammo. It's why russian tanks get destroyed so easily in modern combat.

The TAA1's autoloader ain't like that, it functions more like a clip autoloader.

[broken bear]

Yeah the infamous Russian space program

That autoloader system works great until uh something pens the tank

[daring rapids]

As it stands rn, the tr-85m1 is not era 3 worthy simply because of its stats

If it was actually balanced properly it should ideally stay in era 3 because it is a 3rd gen MBT

But It being era 2 with its current stats (some light adjustments) will be fine so long as those TR-B tanks are era 3

[broken bear]

No way it's worthy of tier3 era3

Basically saying it's same tier bracket as the m1a2 or leo2a5

[daring rapids]

Missclick

[broken bear]

Heck that put it above the amx40

[daring rapids]

Reread

[broken bear]

Ah I see

I agree it's worthy of era3

Just uh idk what else can be done to it to make it less painful to play

[daring rapids]

How about buffing literally everything about it for starters

[broken bear]

It's gun is ironically It's strength and one of It's weaknesses

[daring rapids]

Hull/turret rotation
Giving it the 1200hp engine
Buffing terrain resistances
Buffing it's alpha
Buffing it's velocity
Buffing it's viewrange

Buffing it's radio range

Buffing it's reload slightly

[broken bear]

So just give a massive buff to it

[daring rapids]

Buffing it's armor so it actually works properly

If not then drop it to era 2

[broken bear]

Well tbf mediums ain't generally supposed to be osorio lvl of protection

If they can't buff it to be actually a threat then drop it to tier3 era2

Because literally the only thing going for the tr85m1 is it's dpm

Which meh

[fading niche]

I just wouldn't bother.
It's still going to be mediocre

[covert zealot]

They can buff it and they could've. I explained before how, even in this thread.

As for mediums and heavys, that's an outdated ww2 way to class tanks that they carried over for cw so they dob't have to change more things. It's just mbt's in cw.

[fading niche]

It's already reloading like the tank crew will be executed tomorrow if they don't move quickly enough

[broken bear]

Funny enough it's era3 sabot round could become it's gold round in era2

Might be a bit strong

530mm pen is kinda cracked

[fading niche]

I think the T-55AM2B does

[broken bear]

It has that round ?

Been a hot minute since I played it

[covert zealot]

No, it doesn't. Only the tr85m1 has it.

[covert zealot]

Literally the only thing that wasn't arbitrarly made sub par and way less than it could be about it.

[daring rapids]

I would rather try for it first so it can belong in its objectively correct era
But if those don't even work then drop it to era 2

[daring rapids]

SK-105

But that is a different can of worms with that trash

[covert zealot]

If they do improve everything properly and don't hold back in fear of making it "too good" then they can definitely make it at least a decent tank in era 3.

[daring rapids]

A decent bottom era 3

Cause rn it's just bad

Like there's no real argument for it being a "good" tank in its current form alongside the ecosystem it's in with those stats

[broken bear]

I don't think it's the worst era3 tank

But it's close

Like it's competion is the
Amx32
M60ax
Type59d
Type88a

Might have missed something

[daring rapids]

Not a single purple wn7 on the all-time for this thing

gutter trash

[covert zealot]

Stingray 2 and chieftain mk11 have to be the worst.

[broken bear]

Those are worse in some ways

Stingray mk2 is absolutely the worst era3 tt tank

[fossil hinge]

Nah, mk 11

Mk 2 atleast has mobility (to a degree)

[broken bear]

Only thing that prevents the chieftain mk11 from being worse is it's gun

[daring rapids]

Stingray can be somewhat capable (as fodder) fully upgraded

Mk11 can't even get to the fight half the time because it's just that slow

And then proceeds to get full health ammoracked

[broken bear]

Someone should make a era3 tank tier list

Curious to see just how everything would be placed

[fading niche]

It actually does, just checking now.

It gets a 500mm APFSDS round called the 3BM-412M.
On the TR-85M1, it gets 530mm penetration and is called the 3BM412.

WG does frequently mess up the names of ammunition and guns, but I am willing to bet a solid £1 coin on this being the same round, just with the T-55AM2B's being detuned slightly for Era 2

[broken bear]

So it could work perfectly fine

Just give it the gun stats of the t55am2b boom there's it's era2 gun

[covert zealot]

But it doesn't belong there. It's a 3rd gen tank and has potential. The devs just refused to give it fair stats when they added it.

[broken bear]

Can't overtune it

Goes from being trash to suddenly a sleeper

[covert zealot]

It would be much better that way. It is an important tank afterall.

That mentality of "can't overtune it" might just be precisely why it ended up so bad.

[broken bear]

Well consider the premium osorio

Similar type of tank and that thing is op af

The tr85m1 is basically the temu version of it

[covert zealot]

You can't make it like the osorio. Doesn't have the armour nor the pen to reach its level.

[broken bear]

Or could compare it to the amx40

Also slightly similar

Minus the coax 20mm

[covert zealot]

Doesn't have the pen of the amx 40.

[broken bear]

Smaller gun and worse ammo

[fading niche]

It really doesn't. It is unfortunately on par with a deep modernisation of a T-55.
Sure, we have T-55s in Era 3, but they're deeper modernisations. The gun swap seems to be essential, and not to a basic 105mm M68 either

[covert zealot]

Nor would it be quite as fast.

[broken bear]

Like the dragula it's a t55 with a 125mm gun

[covert zealot]

I have to disagree.

It can definitely be made to be better than the likes of the type 88 or 59d, but it doesn't have what it takes to be on par with the amx 40 and nevermind the osorio.

[broken bear]

I say it's similar to those two tanks purely because of it's very high dpm

[fading niche]

The Type 88? Eh, that gets access to the long 105mm. A significantly improved gun, and to be honest? The TR-85M1 is better than it

[broken bear]

Otherwise nothing about it is comparable

[covert zealot]

Irl? Yeah, I can see it being better.
Ingame? It's currently not.

[broken bear]

Only thing about the Chinese mediums that makes them interesting is they get 600mm pen

Was unique before certain tanks got added

Was the primary selling point of the type59d

Now uh why even play it

Genuinely can't decide if I hate it more then the tr85m1

[fading niche]

The opposite, actually. I vastly prefer the TR-85M1 to the Chinese mediums. It's legitemately one of my favourite Era 3 tanks.

IRL? Not a chance. Better gun and I believe FCS, as well as being an overall more modern design.

[covert zealot]

The fcs on the tr85m1 is better than anything else we have ingame. It's a tank from 1999, and the electronics is what was most modernised about it. Also, the tr85m1 stores ammo in the back of its turret with blowout panels. That matters a lot.

[broken bear]

Yeah there's absolutely no way it has a better fcs then the top nato mbt,s

[covert zealot]

The tr85m1 also has a bit more armour than the type 88.

[broken bear]

Blow out panels tho are a nice touch

[covert zealot]

Also, depends what you understand by better gun. The a308 may have lower pen, but it has better accuracy, range and lighter shells.

[fading niche]

The tank is, as I understand it, a little older than that (1996), which would also date the FCS a little earlier too.

Do you know who designed the FCS and how it holds up to contemporary FCSs? For example, the Strv 122A is alsoof the same age, and that would have a top of the line German FCS (I assume, it is a Leopard 2).

[covert zealot]

Project started in 1996. Was actually built in 1999 and made with the best parts available at that time.

I do know the fcs is called ciclop.