Iron arnie buff

[gritty charm]

Damage 390 ---> 420

8.60 reload ---> 9.23 RELOAD

[loud basin]

Or just nerf the 105s and 120s that were unecessarily buffed?

[crude geyser]

Could always let the tank keep its alpha and buff dpm/accuracy

I feel not every 105 at tier 10 should be 420, let's have something different

[loud basin]

The tank doesn't even really need a buff, everything else just needs nerfed

[crude geyser]

This is a very regressive way of thinking

[normal stone]

Bring back Arnie too, I know it is IP, but I got Milla in mine…

[crude geyser]

We definitely dont need that when pc only moves forward and we as a community are wanting changes reverted all the time

If you look at the 3 versions of wot -

Lesta - crazy ideas, always trying different things, new tanks frequently. Russian players majority love the constant progression within the game

Eu/NA/Asia pc - new tech trees, new mechanics, more qol changes that challenge the norm of the game.

Console - slow progression, minimal changes to the core mechanics of the game, drip fed tanks, reskins of already existing tanks, no new innovative mechanics, years behind in terms of tech trees released compared to the other 2.

[devout marsh]

Bad changes should be reversed

[crude geyser]

It would probably take the devs too long to revert anyways

As we all are made aware, they are a little team and would most likely drive to many resources away from other projects

People asked for the 6.0 changes reverted

We got that

People now complain about it

The alpha changes are very hit or miss between the more casual playerbase

Which makes the majority of the community, its not hated globaly enough to warrant diverting resources into reverting the numbers is what id imagine a wargaming employee would say

[copper rose]

Another thread microcosm of the playerbase demonstrating the issues therein.

Some want no changes or reminiscence to some mostly forgotten time where the problems are now glossed over, others want continued development, change for change's sake.

They really should just release a classic version that crosses over with PC--because I know some PC players ask as well. A very limited "real" tanks only, classic mechanics that don't change--classic arty. Tanks (not changing established lines) and maybe maps are added but that's essentially it, no gun mechanics or track mechanics or strange vehicles, or collaborations, or map weather or any development besides adding lines and maybe graphics. Add a built in robust comp element for those as well. Keep on the whole minimum to be cost effective but to meet this need. Allow PC and console players to port over their accounts TT lines, crews, appropriate premiums. Make people happy.

[mighty arch]

I mean in terms of the 105 and 120mm alpha getting increased. If there was any request for that id generally be surprised as it was the two calibers no one really had much of an issue with.

People have made the point of th105 and 120mm to be reverted as any surrounding caliber has been left is such a horrendous state. Yes it would be great to get them reverted but at this stage it will probably get rolled with, when the balance pass is brought to the table.

[copper rose]

In various ways players did ask for those buffs--maybe not as directly but in other complaints that buff became the solution, no?

[loud basin]

And your solution is to make everything into overtuned slop?

[crude geyser]

Increasing alpha damage and reverting accuracy changes was overtuned?

lol

[loud basin]

Increasing alpha is, yes

[crude geyser]

Explain the definition of overtuned

Because if almost every tier 10 received the alpha changes for there 105/120mm guns, then none of the tanks are overtuned because they now all have the same numbers lol

The only example this doesn't apply to, is the few tanks who didnt receive the alpha changes at tier 10, but this would not be overtuned by definition because they are now a minority

Overtuned usually refers to a outlier

I.e the canopener

Pre nerf taran

Etc

[loud basin]

It is an outlier in terms of damage by caliber if you really wanna think of it that way

In the end this is just semantics

People said games go too fast, we nerf dpm, but get alpha buffs for arguably the best tanks in the game

That's problematic

[crude geyser]

Still doesnt mean there overtuned? By caliber at there own tier, they arent a outlier, your cherry picking. 100mm russian gun scale with damage per tier, so do russian 122mm guns

[loud basin]

105s are closer to 100ms but hit for nearly the same as 122s

Please tell me how that is not an outlier?

[crude geyser]

15cm guns have 750 alpha and 152mm guns have 850, your point? And no one has ever complained

[devout marsh]

Speaking of 122mm, what is the point of a 122 when a 120 has higher dpm, better handling, and better shell speed?

[loud basin]

An extra point also being an outlier does not make another outlier not an outlier

[crude geyser]

122mm guns definitely need some love at tier 10

[loud basin]

And also, you just named another alpha people want nerfed

So, thanks?

[devout marsh]

There have been repeated calls to standardize most 15X caliber weapons to 750 like on PC

[loud basin]

Ig?

[crude geyser]

How is it a outlier when it applies to most cases of 15cm vs 152mm

[devout marsh]

Agreed but the question becomes what do we do now? Do we buff their damage to return their niche over the 120s?

[crude geyser]

The only exceptions to this from my knowledge are 705A,BZ75 and 114 sp2

[loud basin]

I am not talking about individual tanks

I am talking about the general trend in alpha compared to caliber

[crude geyser]

Could be pen buffs? I myself would be reluctant to see 122mm guns get alpha buffs, not the way to progress at all

[loud basin]

Yeah, okay

[crude geyser]

Lol what?

Im on neither side of the argument

I neither agree or disagree with the alpha buffs

I care more so about the progression of wot and the future

[loud basin]

And the progression right now is to keep buffing everything until we eventually have Super Tanks and the E6 has 8 buffs

Totally viable solution long term

[crude geyser]

Tech tree first, premiums last

You need to understand there will always be op tanks

And no one is happy about that

[loud basin]

I am fully aware

[crude geyser]

But nerfing good tanks is just a regressive style of balancing that in my opinion does not work for this game like other games

We can nerf the e5 and chiefs guns

But then no one will want to play them

[loud basin]

Nerf does not mean make useless

Good one though

[crude geyser]

I never said make useless, but nerfing key aspects of what makes tanks good will naturally make them more redundant

[devout marsh]

Maybe? I think buffing at all is the wrong way to go. If our solution to introduce competition to say the top 15 tier 10s is to buff 50-60 up we leave behind ~40 tanks and then the lower tiers fall further behind.

Tldr buffing to equalize power is not sustainable

[crude geyser]

Nerfing certain tanks just makes tanks that didnt receive the buffs more dominant, making more tanks stronger, naturally balances out the previously strong tanks

The only time a tank should be nerfed is when they are outrageously op like the old taran

[loud basin]

I disagree

[crude geyser]

More tanks need buffs than tanks need nerfs aswell

[crude geyser]

this is why were discussing after all

[loud basin]

Nerfing tanks allows you to cycle the meta more easily and not just create stale gameplay

[crude geyser]

But we will always have tanks thay will never be dethroned, e5,leopard,chief

[loud basin]

That's fine

[crude geyser]

These tanks will never leave meta

[crude geyser]

You just contradicted yourself

[loud basin]

Not really

3 just commonly good tanks is fine

But right now we have those

The canopener

All 850s

E6

[crude geyser]

"Nerfing tanks allows you to cycle the meta" but some tanks will always be meta "thats fine"

[loud basin]

Patton 120

[crude geyser]

Console decided to give them 850 over 750 🤷

[loud basin]

(Minus potentially the WZ-113G FT)

[crude geyser]

Accuracy nerf for sure

[crude geyser]

Yeah, love that tank

[loud basin]

Technodrome still needs put in the ground

[ivory crown]

Nerfing is necessary, as otherwise you end up in a positive loop of constantly buffing tanks to bring them up to the level of tanks you previously buffed.

A positive feedback loop is one of the worst things you can have, and in my opinion I almost prefer the years of zero balance changes over merely buffing everything.

Sure, little Timmy will be sad that his favourite tank got nerfed, but little Timmy knew his tank was too good and didn't care anyway.

[crude geyser]

Definitely swept under the radar for a while now

[loud basin]

Like yeah, the CS and ST-II got overnerfed and should be buffed, but they were also insane before

[crude geyser]

Tanks that require nerfs because they are to big of a outlier are fine. As I stated earlier about the pre nerf taran

[crude geyser]

This is what im saying, im not suggesting that every tank be buffed to be the exact same power level of eachother, but buffs to tanks like this to put them near the level of other tanks will increase tank variety in the matchmaker

Drip feeding buffs to tanks that need it, whilst applying small nerfs to tanks that are drastically better than every other tank will eventually lead to a stable system

But wargaming nerfs tanks seemingly randomly, example - Minotauro, the tank recieved nerfs because its win rate was high, not because people complained

[loud basin]

None of us here want to balance explicitly on Winrate

Just to be clear

[crude geyser]

Agreed

[crude geyser]

No no, just an example of wargaming balancing

[loud basin]

I'd like an E5 nerf, not necessarily a nerf where it isn't still meta, because you can have a meta tank this isn't oppressive/cracked

You can just have a few reliable meta vehicles

[crude geyser]

Gun nerf?

[loud basin]

But it gets to a point where we have too many or they are beginning to become over the top

[ivory crown]

I don't particularly want it based on solely public opinion either.

Frankly, we're idiots.

A hybrid is the best way in my opinion. Identify clearly overpowered tanks and those which are complained about repeatedly

[loud basin]

I've seen FB enough times to agree with the 2nd one

😂

[crude geyser]

Like you said before, meta changes should be a thing, it doesnt happen because of the way tanks are balanced within the game. I agree that strong outliers should receive nerfs, but majority of tanks do really require some buffs. Yet wargaming wont do this. 122mm guns and alot of mediums need soke touch ups

[crude geyser]

Agreed, ive seen enough people go back on they're word about wanting the 6.0 reverted

[loud basin]

E5 could have a slightly worse gun, maybe a thinner cupola or something, I think it needs a thicker mantlet so it doesn't get randomly penned as has been seen, and I think it would probably still be meta

Heavy leaning on the maybe

[crude geyser]

I feel the armor should stay, gun nerf though sure

Heavy tanks should stay heavy, although our e5 is super overtuned if you compare it to pc

[loud basin]

E6, gun nerfs and a thinner cupola because it bounces rounds for no reason

[crude geyser]

Camo buff/view range/mobility buff to compensate? Would feel like a worse m48 120 without a positive to go with the negatives

[loud basin]

Potentially view range

I think all the 105/120 alphas need reverted

Except Leopard 1

[crude geyser]

This tanks was the catalyst for these buffs along with the e5

Its like they were testing the waters when giving it the pc gun

[loud basin]

Patton 120 just needs the alpha reverted

[crude geyser]

Reverting alpha buffs would make the canopener and leo very very strong

[loud basin]

There's a couple 105s that I could see an argument for becoming/staying 420

FV4202 comes to mind

[crude geyser]

Ax?

[crude geyser]

Yeah i could see that

4202 needs something over the ax

510 alpha hesh is nice

[loud basin]

420 alpha could be that something

Considering the fact it's highest pen round is 268 APCR

#1471615593395519749 There's also these

[crude geyser]

How do we feel about if we ever get tanks like the concept 5 with 460 alpha for a 110mm?

Or the nemesis mbt having 420 alpha rn on a 110mm

But the fv225 has 350 on a 110mm gun

[crude geyser]

If alpha changes are reverted, I could definitely see this tank keeping 420 alpha, I would also thing about buffing this tanks alpha rn tbh

Idk what else you could give this tank that would make it better than the ax

[loud basin]

I actually quite like the FV225 as it stands but I think it might need hull armor

Nemesis MBT needs an entire clas change

[crude geyser]

I agree, was just making an example of 110mm guns not being consistent

[loud basin]

Weird caliber ig

I think it's okay to have a couple that don't follow the trend

The Badger is a 123mm with 480

But when the general populace no longer follows the alpha caliber trend, it starts to go downhill for me

[crude geyser]

Well thats a unique caliber, no 110mm gun has the same alpha rn yet the kpz 07 e has 120mm with 410 alpha weird

[loud basin]

I also didn't know they were 110mms tbh

A Nemesis with 360 alpha as a medium tank with armor and camo would be cool to see though

[crude geyser]

No the kpz has a 120mm but less alpha than the nemesis mbt 110mm

[loud basin]

Yeah, I mean the Nemesis and FV225

[crude geyser]

Ah yeah, 225 is weird like that

[loud basin]

Kpz being 410 I think is from PC where the other 120s are still 400 right?

[crude geyser]

Definitely should be a medium with mobility buffs

[crude geyser]

Yup same with our canopener

420 alpha

On the topic of the canopener, ours is honestly op because we dont have the terrible accuracy when doubling like pc that makes it unplayable at range

[loud basin]

I was fine with a couple 120s having 420 alpha

I actually suggested that years ago

I think I limited it to the E6, Patton 120, E5, and S. Conq though

[crude geyser]

E5 and s conq definitely. 420 on 120mm guns was good

Now we have 440 on the 57 and foch

PC would go into a seizure if that ever happened for them

[wary fractal]

We need 105mm guns to go back how they were to 390 alpha not more tanks at 420 💀

[gritty charm]

people who dislike this are noobs

[strong laurel]

Tanks really dont need a buff, the buffed meds need to get nerfed back to it originally was like all 105s

[crude geyser]

I mean even if you did revert all the changes, the iron arnie still wouldn't be on the level of the leo/cent AX/e6 etc etc. The armor doesnt really make up for the mobility or okay gun either tbh.

I would like to see the iron arnie maybe get its turret ring armor buffed though

Its a terrible shot trap for the tank, and if the tank isnt capable of getting its turret ring hidden its a auto pen for standard rounds