25mm M242, ADATS, MLI-84M Changes

[grim temple]

This will be a multi part suggestion about how to address some of the Bradley's lackluster ingame performance, the 25mm M919 round and some historical inaccuracies with some of the guns.

*Let's start off with the M919 APFSDS-DU ammo. This round has a DU core, but is not marked as DU and is missing the extra 20 alpha, but is apparently mislabeled M919 when it is the M793 according to this #1464785542221926482 message post. I personally disagree that this 220mm pen round is an APDS (M791) round when the most other tanks in Era 2 and 3 autocannons get their best ammo available. It should stay as M919 and get the 20 alpha increase. The Bushmasters have never been, and most likely will never be a problem ingame due to tier low rate of fire.

• This is more of a quality of life change for most of the tanks that mount the M242 gun. I would suggest lowering their reloads to 10s base so that it can swap ammo if needed. Given the M242s slow rate of fire, I also believe that their accuracy should be increased to be under .20. (Preferrably around .18) After hundreds of games in the Bradley's, this gun cannot become problematic unless its given a TTK similar to that of the Marders or rotary guns, which these changes are not doing.

• The M3A1 Bradley's 25mm has a 150 round clip and the same half minute reload (29s) as the other Bradley's. I feel as the clip size should be increased to the 300 because it is not a problematic autocannon.

• While I am repeating that Ive said in the https://discord.com/channels/630895439520202783/1406138259175903348 thread, I still do firmly believe that the ADATS should have the historical 25mm RoF (500RPM/.12s Intra-Clip) . Every other autocannon in CW has their historical RoF (Intra-Clip), this tank should have it as well. With the above changes however, I feel as this tanks ammo should be changed to the M793 round and reclassifying it as an APDS round instead of an APFSDS-DU round. My reasoning is that if it kept the DU label, it would be way too strong as a gun, even if it is on a Bradley platform.

• Im a little mixed on the MLI-84M. Since it has the M919 round, it should also get the alpha increase, but its RoF is a bit high for that. On the other hand though, this tank is very far from being good, let alone problematic so, Im going to have 2 suggestions for it. The first is to let it keep the M919 round with the increased alpha, and the second is to simply change its ammo to the M793 APDS round so that it doesn't get the alpha changes. I am somewhat worried about making the autocannon too good with the alpha increase, however the gun itself is very inaccurate and the platform its on is slow, thus also inhibits its ability to be problematic.

• M3A2 Bradley
  --- Gun 1
  -- Alpha: 30/50 -> 50/70
  -- Reload: 34s -> 10s
  -- Accuracy: .23 -> .18
  -- Intra-Clip: .30
  -- Rate of Fire: 145.51 -> 180.54
  -- DPS: 100/166 -> 166/233 (Marder 1A3 DPS is 416/500)
  -- Unload Time: 89.7s
  --- Gun 2
  -- Alpha: 30/50 -> 50/70
  -- Reload: 30s -> 10s
  -- Accuracy: .21 -> .16
  -- Intra-Clip: .30
  -- Rate of Fire: 150.38 -> 180.54
  -- DPS: 100/166 -> 166/233
  -- Unload Time: 89.7s

• M3A1 Bradley
  -- Alpha: 30/50 -> 50/70
  -- Reload: 29s -> 10s
  -- Clip Size: 150 -> 300
  -- Accuracy: .25 -> .2
  -- Intra-Clip: .30
  -- Rate of Fire: 122.12 -> 180.54
  -- DPS: 100/166 -> 166/233
  -- Unload Time: 89.7s

• ADATS
  -- Alpha: 30/50
  -- Penetration: 220/65 -> 150/65 (Old pre buff Bradley pen)
  -- Velocity: 1385/1100 -> 1330/1100
  -- Ammo Names: M919/M792 -> M791/MK210 (Not using M793 because that is a training round, also using the naval 25mm Bushmaster HE round)
  -- Ammo Types: APFSDS/HE -> APDS/HE
  -- Intra-Clip: .3s -> .12s
  -- Clip Size: 300 -> 150
  -- Reload: 30s
  -- Accuracy: .21
  -- Rate of Fire: 150.38 -> 187.96
  -- DPM: 4511 -> 5639
  -- DPS: 100/166 -> 250/416
  -- Unload Time: 89.7s -> 17.88s

• Desert Warrior
  -- Alpha: 30/50 -> 50/70
  -- Reload: 29.5s -> 10s
  -- Accuracy: .24 -> .19
  -- Intra-Clip: .30
  -- Rate of Fire: 151.01 -> 180.54
  -- DPS: 100/166 -> 166/233
  -- Unload Time: 89.7s

• MLI-84M

--- Option 1 (Not Recommended)
-- Alpha: 30/50 -> 50/70
-- Reload: 30s
-- Accuracy: .29
-- Rate of Fire: 151.59
-- DPM: 4548 -> 7518
-- DPS: 300/500 -> 500/700
-- Unload Time: 9.9s

--- Option 2 (Recommended)
-- Alpha: 30/50
-- Penetration: 220/65 -> 150/65 (Old pre buff Bradley pen)
-- Velocity: 1385/1100 -> 1330/1100
-- Ammo Names: M919/M792 -> M791/MK210 (Not using M793 because that is a training round, also using the naval 25mm Bushmaster HE round)
-- Ammo Types: APFSDS/HE -> APDS/HE
-- Clip Size: 100 -> 150
-- Reload: 30s
-- Accuracy: .29 -> .24
-- Rate of Fire: 151.59 -> 200.44
-- DPM: 4548 -> 6013
-- DPS: 300/500
-- Unload Time: 9.9s -> 14.9s

[grim temple]

The reasoning for the changes of ammo names is to prevent conflicts with some guns firing the same ammo but having different performance.
For the MLI-84M option 2, I buffed the clip size and accuracy to compensate for the nerfed standard pen.

@lofty flare I just wanted to ping you on this, as weve had some converstions on the ammo for the Bushmaster and Bradley in the past. (I know that the DPM on the Bradleys will be a point of contention)

Finally, I agree with this https://discord.com/channels/630895439520202783/1470795792338911444 post. I made this to work within the current 20 alpha rules.

[tepid urchin]

👎

[slim urchin]

How about, no.

We don't need over more over performing 'light tanks' in CW. Nerf the other ones down to 25mm levels. That would be an improvement for the game.

[daring tapir]

They wouldn't be over performing as it's a bush master, the worst autocannon in coldwar

[grim temple]

Have you used a Bushmaster? And you would call it good or overperforming?

[grim temple]

Also, the Bradley hulls are far from fast or small.

[tepid urchin]

How ridiculous to suggest giving it 9027 dpm

[grim temple]

Again, DPM doesnt matter if its hard limited by the intra-clip

The Bradley's intra is remaining the same

[tepid urchin]

What about rounds per minute ?

Compared to now

[grim temple]

Read the suggestion

The information is there

[grim temple]

That would be the RoF in the suggestion

[tepid urchin]

It looks to me like you want to make the rate of fire better as well as more damage per shot

[grim temple]

The rate of fire isnt the intra-clip

The Bradley has a .3s intra. Im not changing that.

[tepid urchin]

So the intra clip would stay the same ?

[grim temple]

Yes

These are changes to the currently existing stats, anything that isnt there, isnt being changed.

[tepid urchin]

And better accuracy ?

[grim temple]

Yup

Because its a slow firing autocannon

[tepid urchin]

So it would be too good then

[grim temple]

No

It most it only fires 3 rounds per second.

Its unload time is 89.7s

[tepid urchin]

With 50 per shot

[grim temple]

166 dmg per second

Its still half yhat of the MLI, and less than that of the Marder.

[tepid urchin]

So it would be flat out better than it is now

[grim temple]

Yes. It would be better than it is now

[tepid urchin]

So how much dpm would it have combined with the missiles the era 2 Bradley and the era 3 one

[analog mortar]

Something something highest performing light in era 3 is the strf 9040/56 and it's in 40th some odd place in the entire cold war roster
"Overperforming" I call cope

[tepid urchin]

With these changes

[analog mortar]

Or at least that's what I've been told by that one guy who laid out a whole proof of them with stats from le wotstars

[tepid urchin]

Where is the 477 and belka on that list ?

[grim temple]

Not the place for that

[analog mortar]

That is very irrelevant

[grim temple]

This thread is specifically about the autocannons, and more specifically about the Bushmasters.

[analog mortar]

Two completely different tank types/classes and one of them you mention doesn't even have an autocannon

[tepid urchin]

So what did his message have to do with this thread then what he said isn’t about bushmasters

[grim temple]

The STRF does have an autocannon

[analog mortar]

And it is the highest performing light in era 3

Among the ones with ATGM + autocannon of kind

I know for certain the 105mm ones aren't even close to that

[tepid urchin]

No because they are balanced

[tough flower]

The Era 3 cannon armed lights are considered incredibly underpowered, with the very best that they can offer being only marginally better than the worst Era 3 medium.

That is not a healthy place to be.

[analog mortar]

Holy lie

[tepid urchin]

It’s not a lie they are balanced not op

[analog mortar]

They are all anemic at best

Hey, at least they're better than the tr-85m1 tho

-ish

[slim urchin]

The Bushmasters are not overperforming. That is my point. I don't want them to get buffed to "toxic" like the others.

CW gameplay took a nose dive after the German Line was released. Bagel. Marders. W1MK. etc.

There are A LOT, A LOT of underperforming mediums and heavy tanks in CW. The Bushmaster vehicles don't seem like a priority. They actually seem fine where they are. Likley because they have ATGMs that will slap.

[tough flower]

No, the TR-85M1 is better than the Tier 1 cannon lights and on par with the tier 2 ones

[analog mortar]

Mmmmmmm ysure?

Cause idk....

Not a single pink wn7 on the all time top roster for the TR-85M1 and apparently 45% mean or average?

[tough flower]

I cannot in good faith state that the Stingray II is better than the TR-85M1

[wild lance]

Wahhhh wahhhh M3A2 too strong

I hate this community

People just see the word "light tank buff" and go crazy without even considering what it is

If you actually look at things, the mentioned tanks (M3A2/1, ADATS, and MLI-84M) are all absolute garbage vehicles.

[tough flower]

Three of the 25mm armed vehicles are considered very mediocre. The Bushmaster being as ineffective as it is, is one of the primary reasons as to why, as within ATGM arming range they have absolutely zero self preservation skills.

The exception here is the Desert Warrior, which is "solid"

[wild lance]

If these vehicles are so "strong" as is, then why exactly does almost nobody use them

Why are lobbies still MBT dominated?

(Spoiler: cause lights aren't that strong)

[wild lance]

Ngl the Desert Warrior is only even considered solid simply because it has ERA. Take that away and it becomes mid like the rest.

Also doesn't help that the other Lights have horrible stats

[tough flower]

No, it's considered solid because of the ERA and the fact it's not slower than every single MBT

[wild lance]

cough 14 missile STRF

[wild lance]

There's still others that are faster. The Stormer 30 and Mjolnir, and including TT tanks, the M8 AGS and BMP-3.
Once you throw in Turbocharger, this also includes the STRF 9040 and Marder 1A3.

Speed honestly isn't the bigger part of why, though it is still part of why

I'd honestly say the main part as to why the Desert Warrior is better is the combination of ERA + having 24 missiles (TOW missiles at that).

[tough flower]

Mjolnir is a cannon armed light, so is automatically inferior. As is the M8 AGS.
The BMP-3 has its own autocannon issues, as well as a weird ATGM/cannon hybrid.

The Stormer is also considered one of the best Era 3 lights, although armed with a Bushmaster II 30mm so wouldn't be affected by the 25mm proposal above. Unfortunately

[tough flower]

Eh, the Bradley has funky armour too, and by far better TOW stats.
It's just "meh" because of it being slower than most children

[grim temple]

Damage per Second of all Era 2 and 3 autocannons (AP based rounds only)
@tepid urchin @slim urchin

[wild lance]

It's important to mention the cannon lights as well, as it brings up the fact that it proves how speed really isn't everything people make it out to be. You can be fast with good DPM and still garbage.

[grim temple]

Time to kill matters way more for autoloaders than DPM does.

[wild lance]

Also a funny thing to note with this, the Bushmaster's DPS is so pathetic that if it bounces even a single shell (and it will), then its DPS falls lower than a stock, no equipment + commander T-72BU 💀

[grim temple]

Updated as I forgot the STRF 9040.

[tough flower]

There's an arguement to be made there that the MLI-84M doesn't need any autocannon changes itself, seeing how it's not awful

[grim temple]

I think it is quite awful to play tbh

But thats more that the platform and missiles are awful, while the autocannon is lackluster

[tough flower]

I quite enjoy it myself, and it doesn't share the same low RoF flaws as the Bushmaster.

I wouldn't dare say it doesn't have other issues though

[grim temple]

My suggested changes were to mainly make sure it doesnt use the same ammo as the other Bushmasters, and to compensate for the nerf I increased the clip by 50 rounds and a buff to the accuracy

because 50 alpha on the MLI would make it very toxic

[tough flower]

It certainly would

But it is the only 25mm in a currently workable state

[grim temple]

Yup. The nerf to the pen is IMO not that big of an issue

150mm is more than enough for most sides so its overall roll wont change, much other than being able to shoot longer.

[tough flower]

The BMP-3 does fine firing standard, and the AMX-40/MBT-70 get a whole 87mm.

You just need enough

[grim temple]

IMO most autocannons shouldnt get higher than 150mm of pen, but thats another issue all together.

[daring tapir]

The 30mms should have the most due to size

[grim temple]

I think when its 40mm and above it should be fine

[daring tapir]

The pen the strf is fine

That's due to its clip size

The 30mms and lower shouldn't have the pen they have

[daring tapir]

That shoots those?

[grim temple]

That 30mm round is the ammo that the Stormer 30 shoots

The BMP-2, 3 and Molot shoots this dart round

[daring tapir]

I'm 100% fine with those values

[grim temple]

Same

They work very well pen wise in WT

[daring tapir]

You able to find either the same around or similar to what we got in WT and do a full comparison?

[grim temple]

Yup

Except for the M163

Another day though

[wild lance]

It's tolerable outside the interclip reload

Practically the same reload time as the Bradley for a much slower DPS than the Marder 1A3

[grim temple]

If the MLI had anything going for it, Id like it.

[grim temple]

After looking at this though, I really think that DPS should be capped at 500.

[tough flower]

I'm honestly fine with the GAU-8 how it is, as although broken it's overall rather balanced in my opinion

[grim temple]

My biggest issue with it, is how it ignores angled armor

As I thought, people are going to see the 9k DPM and think itll instantly be overpowered

[wild lance]

It's definitely not what I'd consider super overpowered

But it's borderline overpowered

Insanely toxic though

Needs lower pen and it's immunity to autoricochet angles removed

[tough flower]

I don't doubt that, but in the right numbers it's good medicine for the Wiesel and other problem lights

[chrome zenith]

It's more lopsided in terms of balence.

Anyhow, I generally agree with buffing the bushes as they do indeed tickle the enemy.
I do like reducing pen as auto cannon pen has been too high. I dont like being penned by a 20mm at 700m

[wild lance]

Good medicine for the Wiesel, yeah. But what about other tanks? What about the Object 934? Or the M3A1? Or BMPs?

It being a good counter to problematic speedsters does not justify what it can do

[wild lance]

Honestly the issue with being penned at long distances is less to deal with penetration and more to deal with the abysmal armor tanks have. The Merkava Mk. 3 is what I'd consider to have the best side armor in Era 3, but the thickest part is only 80 mm.

[grim temple]

I think itd be much more balanced if it had 500-700 DPS tbh

[wild lance]

Less pen doesn't help much when your armor doesn't exist

[tough flower]

The ATGMs those carry are good counters for the GAU, so it ends up being a triangle of barely balanced toxicity.

That being said, the Bradley is a little too thickly armoured to be easily melted by the GAU.

I fully acknowledge that without the overheat it would be utterly disgusting.

[grim temple]

Sadly the Bradley isnt

Since its engine compartment doesn't count as spaced armor, it just gets melted.

[wild lance]

I wouldn't say ATGMs are a "good counter".

[tough flower]

More than the M163, less than current? Sure

[wild lance]

Staying at range is your best bet for avoiding a 2 second death

[wild lance]

Big issue here is that all the GAU-8 has to do is let its teammates take point or wait you out in cover

So now you either let the enemy push up for free while you wait for the GAU or engage the enemy and let the GAU push safely

And to be frank

I'm of the opinion that rotary guns shouldn't have been added at all

[grim temple]

I deleted that part, because I know people will latch onto that without thinking about it.

[wild lance]

Twas WG's idea of "fixing problems" by making instant death tanks instead of properly addressing stuff like the Wiesel

[hallow spindle]

Wait we are calling mli rubbish tier >.>

[grim temple]

Kinda sadly.

[hallow spindle]

Lemme gold mark it rq before it gets buffs.

[hallow spindle]

I blame wargamming for not buffing Independants and eastern tanks, and also not doing more tech trees.

[wild lance]

Second slowest ATGMs in game iirc

Also on a BMP-1 platform with a worse engine

Only redeeming qualities are an alright autocannon and remote weapon system turret

[hallow spindle]

I use it to good success and I still have fun with it.

[wild lance]

Second slowest with 100 m arming distance

[wild lance]

Of course

You can still do good in a bad tank

But that doesn't make it any better

I gold marked the BMPs before and after the ATGM changes. That doesn't make them any better.

[hallow spindle]

I'm still waiting on Independants and eastern alliance tanks getting buffs, before premiums if there's a chance...I think the merkava could use something and the megach7c

[hallow spindle]

Fun tank bmp is ruined by its intra tbh

[wild lance]

The RoF isn't a problem. The 15 damage autocannon is.

[hallow spindle]

Fun fact the bmp2 can empty it's clip before the bmp3

[wild lance]

Cause they use different autocannons sadly

[hallow spindle]

As long as tech trees get buffed I'll be happy aka eastern and Independants...and for God's sake buff that Chinese era 3 td it's a massive joke.

[grim temple]

Different guns

[hallow spindle]

I know that but bmp3 feels like a down grade to 2

[wild lance]

That's solely in terms of autocannon performance

Everything else is better for the BMP-3

[slim urchin]

I generally don't think it is a good idea to introduce one tank to counter a problem tank. It isn't good to have the cure worse or just as bad as the disease. "this medicine will help you, but side effects are diarrhea and vomiting."

[hallow spindle]

Most of what joco suggestions are pretty decent for most things that I've seen so far or on point.

[misty vector]

if you want a high-performing light talk about the british ifvs

the bradley has some barely useable armor for a 30 second clip reload for its atgms versus something the desert warrior