Let bot lobby games doesnt count to the Moe

[sage leaf]

But now you have like more people reaching those 6k + games because they farm bots

[copper path]

But those people might finish the moe grind sooner bc they farmed bots instead of normal lobbies and actually make MOEs easier since they didn't need 100s of games

[sage leaf]

even with bot lobbies i bet you need for many 10s 100 games

[graceful charm]

Mate. Okay, so 50 super unicums from 400 players in the last 90 days is a lot? I am Sixth and you tell me it is because there are to many good players playing the tank?

[copper path]

Yes you're generally right though, but it's also a relatively small effect. My guess is on the order of 10-20 dpg harder bc of bot farming.

[graceful charm]

How does the Mark get easier when you ned less then 100 games because you make way more damage farming bots?

[graceful charm]

So what makes marking harder then?

We have less good people and way more bad players. Marks should be easier because of that but they are not

[copper path]

Super unis are like 0.1% of the total player pop. If a tank has 12.5?, that's an insanely high number. That's 100 times as many super unis playing the tank as a normal distribution of players

[copper path]

Difficulty marking is almost always due to who is playing the tank. More rare tanks favored by super unis are harder to mark. Common tanks are easier (think season pass tanks and stuff like the E4)

[graceful charm]

Okay. And what if a decent amount of the super Unis and normal players play against bots? Then the Value is also higher then it should be regardless if many Unis play the tank

[copper path]

Normal players don't seek out bots. There is likely correlation between rare super uni tanks and bot farming just bc those people seek out marks. But again, the bot farming happens bc the mark is too hard in the first place (WG being idiots splitting the playerbase and ignoring this issue)

[sweet viper]

It’s not hard there’s more bad than good so the marks should be lower saying a tank is hard because a few players that are good play it is mad

[sweet viper]

No not farming happens because players are bad and want marks and can’t get it normally

[sage leaf]

i dont think so i bet its over 500 dmg per mark maybe more on the most tryhard tanks like cs63 vz55 etc

[graceful charm]

Jap

And it is the bad players because they want a Mark and the good players that normally can't keep up so they farm it against bots

[copper path]

The way the math works just doesn't support this though. Super unis grinding 100s of battles normally inflate it almost as much

[copper path]

Most bot farmers I know of can 3 mark a lot of tier 10s fairly easily but can't do the hard ones, or can 3 mark everything but want gold marks

[sweet viper]

We don’t know the math so what you talking about

[sage leaf]

i dont know what math you mean

[sweet viper]

They aren’t good players if they need bots

[copper path]

WG told us exactly how it works

[sweet viper]

They also said they’ll never give us it

[copper path]

3 marking tier 10s doesn't constitute a good player /s

[graceful charm]

Yeah, so they try to Goldmark against bots and push the Mark upwards

We would see what would happen with the marks if WG would change it. And we can just hope for it. I bet you the marks will get easier.

[copper path]

The target is the nth percentile (the percentile is the one piece of info WG won't give, it doesn't matter though) best game (separate games for each MOE 1-4) in the last 2 weeks. If the percentile is 90, then a player who does over the target damage 10% of the time will raise the mark. The two factors per player in raising the mark is how often they do better than the target and how many battles they play per 2 week period. 70 battles at 60% surpassing the target and 70 battles at 70% surpassing the target is 7 extra ticks on the scale of thousands of battles

[graceful charm]

I mean marks as a thing for it Self are quite broken sometimes. Look at the old reliable

[copper path]

Yes, probably like 10-20 dpg easier, and it'll still be impossible

[graceful charm]

I don't think so. But we will never know

[copper path]

In any case, difficulty is primarily who is playing the tank, not the bot farmers (it's been that way forever)

[sweet viper]

Well then ‘bad players’ should have 3 marks

[copper path]

Your leaps in logic continue to astonish me lol

[sweet viper]

I just said good players should be able to 3 make without bots.
You replied 3 marking Dosent constitute to a good player.
If that’s the case any player should be able to 3 mark with ease

[copper path]

Sarcasm lol. You were the one that implied 3 marking tier 10s doesn't make someone good

[sweet viper]

When did I say 3 marking tier 10 Dosent mean you’re good

[copper path]

Wrong

[sweet viper]

That’s what I thought

[storm robin]

Pls stop repeating, i dont want that this case vet closed, thanks

[copper path]

Right here

[sweet viper]

Using bots Dosent mean you’re a good player is what I said

[storm robin]

Or good enough

[sage leaf]

Ok what happens when you have lets say 100 people who play tank X for 100 games the top 5 players would normally get the moe right?
But now you have 10 others who are pushing the moe by farming bots and are getting results over their usual capabilities.
would that not make the Gunmark much harder to get ?

[storm robin]

Fact is: if u dont get it legit, ur are mot supposed to get the 3 Mark. Even if u farm it with bots

[copper path]

Right after I said those players easily 3 mark tier 10s normally yes

[sweet viper]

They clearly don’t 3 mark tier 10’s easy if they use bots 😂

[copper path]

Theoretically. But 5% has always seemed wrong bc top 5% should be a joke in most tanks. If 10% of players in a tank are bot farming, yeah it might push it up a lot. I'd wager that far less than 1% bot farm in any given tank. Most of the problem tanks are bc of the high numbers of super unis to begin with

[copper path]

You just don't care to read. They easily do most 10s and botfarm to do the one's they aren't good enough to do.

[sweet viper]

A bot farmer is a bot farmer regardless and I’m sorry if you farm bots your marks shouldn’t exist

[copper path]

Nobody disagrees

[crystal sable]

Is kinda shocking how long this discussion is, when u break it down, its just about that pvp marks can not get killing pve things. Many abusers here or what is your point of anyone who is against? Wtf guys. Also nice that we hear something from a wargaming official here what they think about this situation

[sweet viper]

What are you going on about

If you can’t understand why people are against it this forum is not for you

[copper path]

WG's official stance is that it's not a big enough deal to care about and we should suck it up

[copper path]

Wrong

It's an open forum. Chill

[sweet viper]

If they read they’d easily understand 🫤

[copper path]

If only that were true for you

[crystal sable]

I was reading everything dont worry. And I didn't read any good argument why damage against bots should count for moe

[sage leaf]

Ok lets meet in the middle by 5% of the players( i think its more). Those 5% are only having good to very good rounds because bots are predictable. So their impact on the 3rd and 4th mark is still big .

[sweet viper]

If you can’t understand that it’s not fair on actual decent players who grind them without bots then you’ll never understand

[copper path]

That's wild that you think it's anywhere close to 5%. Meeting in the middle is like 2%

[sage leaf]

1-10% middle is for me 5%

[crystal sable]

I wish people would read better

[copper path]

I consider it a log scale at such low numbers

[sweet viper]

Actually read what you said you don’t understand and I’ve replied if you don’t understand why it’s a problem then you never will it ain’t that hard

[crystal sable]

If I say, i dont want that bot damage count for moe, and i didnt read any good argument for that. And u say killing bots for moe is not fair agaisnt all players, arent we on the same page ?

[sweet viper]

Make it make sense

[sage leaf]

When i look at the times most of the best games are played i am sure that there are many bot farmers out there with many games

[copper path]

Best games are such a low % of possible games. Higher than 1% is only even possible on tanks with a super low player pop already where the target is high to begin with

It might be an issue there but there are better things WG could do that would affect the difficulty in a more effective way than removing bot games (which is also something WG explicitly said they'd never do, which makes this whole thread moot)

[sweet viper]

They wouldn’t let you have a suggestion if it wasn’t possible 🤣

And it’s not the bot games we want removing it’s the damage done to bots on MOE

[copper path]

That's what I mean btw. In either case it ends up not really mattering. WG has explicitly refused this exact request

[sweet viper]

God knows if it’s even possible to shut out bots giving MOE on multiplayer

[vernal jetty]

I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. The problem isn't that bots exist, it's that the bots are way to easy. If you give the bots a big update, boosting their performance the issue starts to get fixed. Then all the games can still count.

[ivory scarab]

They did this as a default thing with the bots but had to change them more to their current state because they were so good they bodied new players

[vernal jetty]

Well surely there is some middle ground, cause they are currently quite dumb. Even changing their tank selection away from obj 120 or t88a would help.

They can leave the bots in easy mide for co op

Or even add a few current standard bots and a few higher

[glad helm]

So WG would give us bullet proof Bots like the Tigers in the D Day Op. Ouch.

[fervent nebula]

Why bots is always same or lower tier why not higher tier??

[vernal jetty]

The tanks on d day mode were edited in other respects, bigger health pools etc. We just need a middle ground to make bot farming less effective and 4th moes more fair.

[pure thunder]

While I am against bot farming in general, how would you implement this? You cannot control the frequency of playing against bots. And how many bots would you need in one lobby to nullify any moe progress? I have over 70 Tier X's so I mainly just play now for marks, but between my work schedule and living on the West Coast, I am apt to more bots than someone in a more populated time zone. Would more of my games be "penalized"?

[copper path]

This is explicitly why WG has refused to consider anything like this. It penalizes players who can only play during low pop hours

[vernal jetty]

Agreed, i think the best way is to make the bots harder. Then they won't be so easy to farm

[tribal lodge]

Im not sure they have the ability to do that. At least with driving. The movement of the tanks is what makes them so easy. They shoot with almost 100% accuracy already.

However something they could work towards finding a solution.

[glad helm]

So you want to trust WG to get the balance right? Our WG? Bots already 100% accurate snapshot on the move, track on the move and have unlimited regular and Gold ammo. Take a look at some battle resulst, bots don't always finish bottom in any Tier/Era. Just saying.

[copper path]

They're as accurate and have the same ammo limitations as any normal tanks. They just can aim exactly where they want and don't even need vision to do it

[glad helm]

From WG in another thread . "Hello, it is intended for bots to have unlimited ammo as they are more active with shooting and not as efficient as a human. If only bots were left (such as a Coop battle for example), and they all ran out of ammo, it would not be a very good user experience to watch them sit there until the time ran out.
Also worth nothing, it's only for the main gun. They have the same limited ammo count on secondary weapons such as ATGM's."

[finite badge]

They are indeed too easy to defeat: https://www.twitch.tv/onenomad_/clip/HappyFrigidScorpionAsianGlow-9IRBPlaLfzb_jriZ

[vernal jetty]

I would rather ask them to fix the right thing. Bots doing stupid stuff is at the core of the issue. Taking away moe progress during bot matches won't work, it will damage an already small player base.

[split robin]

No one talking about taking MoE of people playing in bot matches 🙂 The main idea that those battles wouldn`t be counted towards the tank MoE target values, which in general just means realistic MoE requirements not affected and increased by players farming bots, but those players in such battles would still be able to get there MoE

[sage leaf]

And i think that the problem moes are worth nothing when everyone can get them by farming bots

[split robin]

Disagree, it still one of key things game allows you achieve and keep you interested, like for me who has all tanks in game without few premiums all i left is basically some personal goals, ACE a tank or try raise MoE of a tank, i do not care about whoever intentionally picking easier way to do so, but it should not affect others trying with 15vs15 real players

[tough otter]

Even then it also depends when you marked it tbh. And if you were platooned etc.

[sage leaf]

Thats your opinion and thats fine but i find it discouraging when struggeling wirh a gm and see a bad player next to me who got the same by farming bots

[tough otter]

If MoEs were tied to a ranked/comp gamemode as an individual achievement for ranks that'd probably work out better than random queue

[split robin]

Fair point, i just do not care about it

[tribal lodge]

They could do a second kind of mark for competative. However competative in of itself is apparently a big ask.

[torpid bolt]

Comp marks lol

The devs here cant even figure out who won the Battle Heroes

You think they can manage handling comp marks

I needed a good laugh, thank you

[queen turtle]

Now that you make me think it would be cool to have a different type of Mark for COMP and the ones we have for normal MULTI, for example, if the French get 3 white lines in multi, maybe they can have yellow marks for comp and silver for 4th mark, and the player can choose what marks to show.

[languid delta]

Comp marks? That doesnt even make sense lol

[true cloak]

yeah like something to show success in tournaments like an inscription, emblem, camos, or free gold

wait..

[languid delta]

still waiting for an actual comp camo though

[true cloak]

your hopes are high

[torpid bolt]

Hey here's an idea - marks for for training room

You get a 95% training room winrate and you get purple marks

I dont know who's worse the playerbase or the devs at this point and im too afraid to ask

[earnest canyon]

Ok you kinda answer your own question in the post but I want to make a few points

1. To quote the OG post "There are many players that play to grind marks"(some are definitely in EU and other various geographical locations spanning all timezones) meaning there online time is your offline time. Therefore they cant help getting bot lobbies(yes I bet you're right some people want to farm bots and pretend to be good) If what you want to change actually happens it very well may be the case that players in various regions never get marks because they cant get in a lobby that actually counts towards them which definitely isnt fair😬
   2.normal players is a very subjective term given some people's loadouts against bots/players regardless
2. The player who has a straight gold rack and 3 premium consumables never having to pay for there mistakes isn't really grinding marks in my opinion
3. If you want a challenge try one of these setups
   A. Straight stock no equipment no upgrades no consumables no prammo (mad respect)
   B.fully upgraded no equipment no consumables no prammo(respectable)
   C. Fully upgraded partially full/full equipment slots no consumables no prammo(still a notable achievement)
   All of which can be made easier or harder with a commander(with varying slots)
   It would be extremely cool to see variations of MOEs at these these difficulty lvls that are self imposed. The truly skilled would be highly identifiable and decorated. Truly distinguished honestly if that was to ever come to be

Some people just play to make the game as easy as possible from what ive seen @storm robin and nothing is going change nor do I support your suggestion simply because it would punish players who are from different parts of the world

[storm robin]

?? If u are meeting bots, u can change the Server if u want to grind gunmarks?

And if i play Premium Equipment (which is normal) or gold ammo, why this isnt a challenge?

If i die with Premium Equipment because i yolo, its the same like with normal consumables

If u dont use it, its your fault

[storm robin]

And btw there is no gold Rack, all stuff is available for Silver

[tribal lodge]

MOE is a waste of ur time and energy unless u take the game very seriously, there rlly is no reward of getting it and in fact its actually embarrassing for 3-4 mark players to get killed by lower marks or no marks at all lmao. That’s why I just relax and play the game with 0 or 1 mark cuz I still kill 3-4 mark people no matter what

Everyone in this game has good and bad moments but the key is….we all die in the game. No one ever has 100% survival or else ur cheating lol😊

Honestly like 4 marks man💀💀. U must have no life or u just paid someone to do it for u, I really don’t care for it tbh

Plus MOE, rlly depends on yes the lobbies and bots and stuff but also the map ur in whether ur tank suits it or not, but also ur team. If the average teammates always die so fast and quick and ur the last one alive and only did like 1/2 ur average damage, how the hell are u gonna make it to the 3 or 4 mark whatever is ur goal??? Then ur playing with the RNG system whether ur gonna bounce, miss, or hit and pen all ur shots u just never know. Yes I respect people who are good at the game and strive for these marks but for me its just a waste of time of looking and paying attention to that cuz in reality, we are just here to have fun not take it too seriously

[storm robin]

3 Mark Looks good and is a sign for sweat and skill (before bots came out)

[sweet viper]

Literally if someone had 3 marks you knew they were a monster now it’s just bot accusations galore

[raven scaffold]

So people that get 4 marks have no life do they. People want to get achievements in the game and you are either good enough to do it or you aren’t it’s as simple as that.

[tribal lodge]

Im a casual player but I still try for moe, I dont care about bot grinders because I used to be really bad at this game. So everytime I mark a tank even against bot grinders it feels awsome, more so when I can get a 2 mark. Also people who can 3 or 4 mark without bots are on another level. You can hate on people who care more and are just more talented bit that does nothing for you as a person but degrades yourself.

[storm robin]

Yes, but the moe is a competetive Feature.. and this shouldnt work against npc.

[tribal lodge]

Correct but low playerbase is impossible to deal with without issues of way longer wait times. If you negate bots thats less dmg potential then a full player match. You reduce how many players are required thats less dmg potential then a full match. Its kinda an unfixable issue without someone being a disadvantage.

[storm robin]

In all decisions are disadvantage

[tribal lodge]

This is also true.

[storm robin]

If the bots stay, its a disadvanteg for everyone that grind moe legit by own skill

[tribal lodge]

Thats also a fair point however Im not sure what the dev teams priorities are. I dont think its long term players.

[storm robin]

Sadly yes

[tribal lodge]

Easier profit for new players to come in spend, bot farm then leave.

Sad but probably the case with the current state.

Long term players already spent alot.

So they are uneeded.

[true cloak]

you do realize the difficulty in marks comes from being good at the game and not whether you're using prem consumables or pmnot right

[copper path]

Translation "I'm not good so everybody better than me is either a cheater or no life"

[tribal lodge]

Alright so none of u must understand this game. Understandable🤣

Just like I thought

“Skill issue” crap

Tbh this game isn’t rlly abt skill issue, it’s controlled by the RNG

[tribal lodge]

Nothing I said was skill issue.

At most I said hating on people for thier skill does nothing.

No I’m just talking abt majority of the wot playerbase just be fr

Man that RNG goes on for ages , I would list em all out but what for. I’m not wasting my energy for this bs

[tribal lodge]

Its both, RNG plays a big part however to 4 mark with bot grinders and RNG involved adaptability is a huge skill that sets them above the rest. So its always a bit of both.

[storm robin]

And the skill is, to handle with this things

[tribal lodge]

It’s more luck but yes, cuz ur also playing the odds that ur team does their job so u don’t die immediately

[storm robin]

And not consumables or Premium ammo lol

[storm robin]

Its not luck bro

If its luck, everybody can be That super unicum player

With "luck"

[tribal lodge]

Alright yall think what u want, im not changing the way yall think. But thats how the game was in old times, not everything is skill issue. Not all the times when u miss or bounce shots where its supposed to be hits or destroy is on u

[tribal lodge]

No luck isn't it, it can help however I know many players that even in a disadvantage with a bad team their skill helpped them win. Even I have soloed 7-9 tanks and Im above adverage.

[tribal lodge]

Your not entirely wrong but you seriously ignoring how skill still plays a part.

Depends on ur enemy, tank ur using, and if ur tank isn’t damaged asf like ur engine or ammo rack and if that’s the case if the game will even allow u to escape🤣

Often times when ur losing, the enemy already sees where ur at and u don’t

[storm robin]

No problem, but this is not the right area to talk about, so please stop the luck Talks or leave 🫡

[tribal lodge]

I know its a little bit of everything because I came from nothing to marking most of my tanks.

[tribal lodge]

Ok. Welp this is stupid cuz I find it f-ed up that I have many friends who got banned from this server just for expression their emotions kinda like what I’m doing but they went a different route🤣

Bot farmers are making some of my fav tanks a little unbearable. Even with a 5,600 dmg adverage I still cant get even the 1st mark.

Why is it that talking abt an RNG and how WG works gets u banned?🤣🤣

[storm robin]

I just say please leave the thread, not the server

Because this thread is about gunmarks, and not "luck"

And i want a clear chat here

[tribal lodge]

5,600 being too low for even 1 mark is kinda insane and a huge example of this problem.

[storm robin]

Which tank?

[tribal lodge]

Jaguar 1. Im at 90 battles with that dmg adv.

Bot grinders have made it an insane requirement.

[storm robin]

Thats the point of the botfarmer, the value get high because of bot lobby dmg

But coldwar is a other World than ww2

[tribal lodge]

Yup thats why I say its insane devs alow it to be this bad.

What abt the osorio? Okay I was at 92%, but this week was rlly rough if yk yk. My average damage is abt 5.5k but if I get 6k range, it goes down? And if I get like 10k or more it only goes up by like .20?? Listen I don’t look at my MOE but once I see I’m almost there, ima try a little bit to get it but if not it’s alright yk

7,000 to 10,000 dmg adv is impossible in actual game play.

[storm robin]

Then you dont have enough dmg

[tribal lodge]

Benifit of the Osorio is I still marked mine in 70 battles. It still in normal range for the 1st mark.

[storm robin]

This is how it works, but other people in ur Situation farm bots if they are to bad

[tribal lodge]

See that’s my point too, u cant skill judge a person based on marks. 3-4 mark people still die anyone no matter what

Having 0 or 1 mark doesn’t mean ur bad at the game

Just saying

The jaguar 1 just the 1st mark is insane dmg values.

[storm robin]

But hey, if u have other people that are Interested in this Theme, feel free to invite them and let a here

[tribal lodge]

Marks dont tell skill it should be achievement based. Once someone 4 marks a tank they can relax and just have fun.

I get that, it’s the people who interpret that way. I’m not targeting anybody I’m just saying it’s how some people may think of it

I relax after 1 because Im not a 3 mark kind of player.

Dont care about what people think marks are for you and you alone.

[storm robin]

I only 3mark tanks, because 4mark is wasted time

[tribal lodge]

3 marks are very difficult I got to 93% with my 4005 and had to stop. Im not skilled enough to out pace bot farmers so I gave up. 2 marks on the other hand.

[storm robin]

But u dont abuse the bots to reach the 3, which is a good decision

[tribal lodge]

Cw or ww2? I absolutely love the t10 4005 but it’s a bit challenging in a way for 3 mark I think, I’m almost at the 2nd

[tribal lodge]

Yup no point of it doesn't mean anything.

[tribal lodge]

Cw Im still working on getting the ww2 Fv4005. Ww2 and I are a love hate relationship.

Ww2 isn’t “unplayable” like u get ur ups and downs moments. I will say tho that the 4005 line in ww2 is rlly fun

I’m saying this cuz I have lots of friends with ww2 problems that they switched to cw or just stopped playing cuz of how unfair it is

[tribal lodge]

Yeah thats me but, CW has its own headaches, good to know the ww2 4005 is still worth getting.

Yeah for sure. As least for me, my fun in this game is just grinding fun lines and now playing t10 with it. I grinded abt 7 tanks in the past 7 months and it was a massive pain but I got em, it was great😅

[tribal lodge]

Again it’s not all abt being “good or not good” all the time, I understand where the skill is but ur not gonna be able to do it 100% of the time cuz we all die and lose games

[tribal lodge]

I’m not the greatest but I won’t say I’m bad, I’m just relearning the game after coming back from the hotwheels season🥲

So much has changed but the RNG is still there

[copper path]

That's where marks come in. It's about doing it well as consistently as possible. Everyone has the same struggles with RNG. Being a good player is partially learning how to minimized RNG

[tribal lodge]

I get that but not everyone has the “exact same” struggles. Sometimes it hurts other people than others, it varies no one is rlly the same here

[copper path]

It is the same struggle in the long term. What gets expressed in that long term is skill through how consistently you can mitigate that RNG

[tribal lodge]

How exactly do u mitigate or beat the RNG? Cuz if ur on a losing team, the enemy knows where ur at which u dont, they can damage ur ammo rack or fire rlly easily to make u die, etc etc. I can get what ur saying but I just don’t know how the RNG can be beaten. At least for me as 1 out of many players, the RNG is never on my side

[nimble ridge]

You can always get on another server. But I remember 10 years ago the teams would be smaller if there wasn’t enough players on. I didn’t see an issue with that.

[tribal lodge]

Its the dmg potential. 15 tanks its easier to get dmg, with 7 or 5 tanks its much harder so your at disadvantage to mark with smaller battles.

However this is just my guess. Nothing said by a dev.

[queen turtle]

Marks don't make you indestructible, it only shows that you achieved a higher range of damage per game with that tank.

[queen turtle]

Indeed, it is something that shows not only that you have some expertise in the tank, but also thjat you like it and you use it enough for it to show, MARKS are a nice detail in the game, is some kind of tank veterancy that you can see yourself, and is a thing for you the user.

[queen turtle]

a bit of both, if they play terrible you know is a bot farmer, but if they play with skill you know that at least most of those marks were legit.

[queen turtle]

Bro it is literally 90% skill, strategy and quick time decision making on the spot and 10% RNG, hell i might give you 15% RNG. so.... yeah

SKILL ISSUE

🤣

[tribal lodge]

@queen turtle my man, of what’s been going on with the game recently of people getting ammo racked, missing/bouncing shots…u can’t control that man. Dying off the rip to an ammo rack isn’t ur fault🤷‍♂️

[queen turtle]

You should only try to Mark high your favorite tanks, like the ones you play the most, not all of them, that is indeed NUTS xD

[queen turtle]

Agreed, for example (CW) in my opinion ATGMS need a module damage decrease, and some tanks like the ELC need a camo reduction NERF, but even tho you might get racked in a few games, it is still under your control most of the times how you play.

[tribal lodge]

That’s just a few examples, list goes on and on with the rigged system.

[tribal lodge]

True

[sweet viper]

We’re on about back in the day when bots never existed

[queen turtle]

Yeah but they are a necessary evil today, mostly to fill games, the problem is the ones taking advantage of the system.

[raven scaffold]

Well that’s obvious it’s not possible to never die and never lose

[queen turtle]

Yep, even the best player in the world will get destroyed here and there.

[raven scaffold]

Yes of course

[copper path]

How do you think the best players win 70% of the time? RNG means games are ~50/50 at the start. Winning 40% of the games you would've otherwise lost means you're affecting the outcome of the game, overcoming bad teams and unluckiness to change the outcome, beating RNG

[queen turtle]

Indeed, even if you get destroyed mid game, your actions might have changed the outcome, you doing heavy damage, tracking an important tank for everyone to shoot at, spotting early and showing the team where some tanks are going, getting into a good position early, helping a teammate getting rushed by shooting at the distracted rushers...

[tribal lodge]

However u do get teammates who don’t do crap, they don’t stick with u and shoot people u spot or whatnot. Or like they run away to the other side of the map the second they get shot, list goes on. But anyway, the team can affect the outcome of ur game positively or negatively as well. I agree with u both as well

[copper path]

Marks and skill are about how well you can overcome bad teammates to win games. Even the best players can't change the outcome 60% of the time. Being good means striving to change the outcome as much as possible

[tribal lodge]

True. Learned a long time ago to forget the teammates cuz most of them crap anyway and just act as the “lone wolf” that u can take em all on alone lol

I will admit u get good teammates sometimes but most of the time, they play with 0 brain smh

[earnest canyon]

Like I said some people want to make the game as ez as possible

Ive got bot lobbies at 4pm on a weekend on US servers what you're suggesting literally wont work....

Besides we aren't going to keep new players if they keep getting annihilated by players clubbing seals with a fully upgraded tanks with full equipment, premium consumables and prammo rack they "earned" by farming silver in op CW premiums like the wiesel

[tribal lodge]

Yup plus this hurts both modes. Neither is benefiting from the current state of the game

[sweet viper]

You can easily earn silver in world war

[tribal lodge]

True but, everyone knows CW is easier and way more rewarding.

[queen turtle]

When you have some experience with the game, you can tell at least at the beginning, how good the team is, and if you notice they are not being very helpful or useful, try to play more passive.

[queen turtle]

It is also competitive, if the enemy uses something that makes his tank aim and reload faster, i am not doing me or my team a favor by not using premium consumables or equipment, just to "Prove myself", no one cares if you think you have to challenge yourself, i use premium consumables 1 because i can at this stage of the game, 2 because i want my tank to perform better, 3 because sometimes you need that performance to carry bad teammates, 4 i am here to win or to do as much as i can, no to pretend i am some elitist just because i can play the game naked and with no crew skills, equipment or consumables, i am going to use them.

Now seal clubbing is something different, i don't know why some people like to play tiers 3 and 4 all the time, i heard that it was for "fun" BS, those tiers are not the fun ones, you could say that for 6 or 7.

[queen turtle]

Indeed, CW ERA 3 has the best silver earn and not only that, you can use tanks like the 292 or THUMPER that can't even use premium rounds because their standard rounds are tremendously high on penetration, so you can't lose silver with those type of tanks unless you do something weird on purpose.

[tribal lodge]

No literally, exactly. U can automatically tell based on the tanks being used on ur team and enemy. Not only that, when u have a variety of tank lines grinded, u can tell what teammates have the bad weapon/gun due to their turret and whatnot lol. When I notice those types of things, I just do a sarcastic “good game” in the comms chat cuz ik we are gonna lose. And what happens???…..we lose haha🤣. I get teammates who say “good game with me/affirmative” or other teammates that say “negative” cuz they must not like people like me predicting or “jinxing” the game that we know we are gonna lose

[copper path]

Get better. You can claw back those games that seem like losses if you dedicate yourself to improvemnt

[queen turtle]

That is why sometimes you need strong tanks with you, sometimes the enemy is in the same spot, hell next week i am deffo grinding the new American Heavy line, but i help my mental sanity by fully equipping new tanks, 1 because i am keeping them, (i like to collect TT tanks), 2 so i can take full advantage of the first daily and general XP booster i use, 3 to pay well, and 4 i know i am gonna fight maybe 1 or 2 tiers bigger than me and fully upgraded in my stock tank, so i need to give mine all the chances possible to fight.

[queen turtle]

50/50 XD sometimes you go above and beyond the CALL OF DUTY and still lose, but hey you are the loser with 9K damage and 5 kills so, i see that as a win in my book 👍

[tribal lodge]

I don’t take the game seriously, I got a crap ton more games to play and enjoy. I’m just an average player, I’m not below or above but I have my experiences with rigged games and teammates below me cuz I watch how they play and just laugh to how useless they are🤣

It’s not abt people “getting better”, sometimes we don’t do good in wot every day too

[copper path]

You make an awful lot of excuses for someone who doesn't take it seriously

[tribal lodge]

Not excuses that’s just the game🤷‍♂️

How are u as a player then? U seem to know lots of stuff and that u do good in the game huh!🤔

[tribal lodge]

Why are you so angry of your a casual player?

Not angry lol

I’m just laughing

“Excuses” = people who say skill issue more than RNG

[tribal lodge]

You have kinda been going off for awhile about all sorts of things. Doesn't seem casual to me.

The post is rather simple. Bot lobbies make moe harder and worth less. All this other stuff just seems like a tired player.

[queen turtle]

His name went white he was green right?

[tribal lodge]

Still green to me.

[queen turtle]

Can you double check? i checked and apparently he left?

[tribal lodge]

Oh he did leave I wasnt being mean. I was just saying he seemed tired of the game.

[queen turtle]

Not blaming you, or anyone for that matter, for what i was reading, all of us had a clear head or joked a bit, but no one was hostile, so... GG XD

[tribal lodge]

GG, indeed

[storm robin]

Premium Equipment doesnt mean, you are automaticlly good lol

If u have Premium Equipment but u die in 30 seconds, u are trash

And most sealclubbers are medium players that have problems with t8 and above. Most of the overperforming players, play t8 and above

[queen turtle]

Indeed, Low tiers are boring for good players, tier 5 is the lowest they might play and just for a bit.

[storm robin]

Thats the thing

[glad helm]

why are they boring?

[queen turtle]

Type of tanks, game style, most tanks can pen you anywhere or no one can pen you (Matilda), some don't count for challenges or contracts, they don't feel as powerful as at least the Tier 5s, Noobs play that the most so seal clubbing, tanks feel more like toys only tier 4 start feeling more like your tank has weight and power, tiers 1 trough 3 used to feel and in the case of 3 still feel like toys, if WG changed that it would be better, but i also see why they don't, and of course the cooler tanks are in tiers 5 to 10 not 3 and 4 even if they are historically accurate, also you have some weird tanks that is more than obvious were made to appeal seal clubbers .

And i could keep going

[glad helm]

Types of tanks? Every Tier has been created to provide a "progression" to the next, usually in a chronological time line. Low Tier early tanks, Tier 10 end of the time line. There is more variety in Low Tiers simply because every nation was still experimenting with tank design. Game style? There are powerful tanks in every Tier, there are weaker tanks. Tactics (if anyone still uses them anymore apart from Wolfpacks in 2025) that work in low Tiers work in high Tiers. Pen or can't pen? Same every Tier unless you use the built in cheat design in Tier 10 i.e. Its always Top Tier, you can blast away and farm Tier 8 as much as you want. Tiers 3 and 4 have the next best because of +/-1 MM. There are fewer OP tanks in Tier 3 and 4 than higher Tiers, thankfully. Tiers 5 to 8 are the worst because of +/-2 MM. If a player wants pen they simply buy it.

[glad helm]

Some don't count for challenges or contracts? Thats the way they've always been sold. You don't have to take part if you don't want it /need it/ its irrelevant to why you play. Don't feel as powerful? I guess if your a player who likes one shot derp tanks I guess so. Others may call it game balance because of the absence of OP tanks. Feel like toys? Xmas tanks yes 100%. Everything else? No. Historical early war tank designs are just that, not better or worse, just a slice of history. If you like early bi planes you like them for what they are/were. If you pregnant WWII planes instead fine or Modern day jets. All are planes, just different slices of history. Same with tanks. Seal clubbing tanks by design? That answers itself. If it common we would haver the current Tier 6 Tiger tanks at Tier 4 fighting Lees, Grants, Stuart and early Shermans. And I could keep going.

However this has strayed away from the original Post re bots and MOE's. So remove damage done to Bots from my global figures but keep it for the individual player. Simple, practical.

[queen turtle]

Yet tiers 5 to 10 are the best to play, even with the +2/-2
"I guess if your a player who likes one shot derp tanks" Nope, you can have the same Howitzer playstyle with tiers 4 like the Hetzer and many tiers 5s can also do that, you know what i mean with the tanks feeling more powerful in higher tiers.
The problems is that due to how the game sees achievement for low tiers they feel like less, like they are the tiers you just pass along for your tutorial, not the actual game, i also love many thanks in tiers 3 and 4 even 1 and 2. the problm is you don't feel any good progression or worth playing them for more than a very few games.

[glad helm]

This is where we have different views. Since Downgrade 6.0 I don't see what are now Low Tiers as less. Just tanks of varying types. I've basically stopped grinding any Tech Tree line beyond Tier 5 because its meaningless/pointless/a waste of time. There is no progression anymore in WWII mode. Even in CW I don't bother going past Era 1, same reasons. The higher the Tier/Era the less satisfying game play. I only get by as it is by playing on a split screen watching cable TV.

[torpid bolt]

Anyone here writing more than one sentence is a maniac.

Thanks for coming to my Tank Talk.

[queen turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/don't-challenge-me-vilain-jean-claude-van-damme-the-expendables-2-don't-provoke-me-gif-7484682362549513014

[storm robin]

Road to 100

[graceful charm]

Yeah but it will not change anything. WG will not Listen. They don't care about the good players that much

[torpid bolt]

They especially dont care about good players, they are the minority and probably spend less on gold

Revenue is in the sheep

[steel gyro]

Couldn't of said it better, its the only reason I still play, but even then lately its not enough to bring me back

[tribal lodge]

@queen turtle

Oh looks like you already posted here.

[queen turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/the-boys-butcher-gif-5041092981331887802

[queen turtle]

That varies from player to player, i know some like low tiers, but the end game you know it, i know it are the high tiers, that is pretty much tier 6 to 10 in most cases, (END GAME STYLE).

[glad helm]

After 6 years in this game, for me, the least satisfying and boring Tier or Era to use is easily Tiers 9 and 10. I use to enjoy Tier 8 but constantly getting -2 MM I just gave up. I do not understand how anyone can see high Tiers as the best in 2025.

[tribal lodge]

@sweet viper this is where you go for that conversation. Also to specify no you shouldn't be able to bot grind. It does effect pro players because they care more then most. All Im saying is people care too much about people claiming bot farmer. If you know and your friends know you earned them ligit. Who cares about the child calling everyone bot farmers.

[sweet viper]

Yep because this post hasn’t been commented on thousands of times with people agreeing with what I said proved my point also unless uou 2 marked with bots your 2 mark didn’t need mentioning to

[tribal lodge]

I dont think you said that right dont you mean 2 marked without bots?

Also all I was saying is people devaluing your mark shouldn't matter if YOU know you did it ligit.

[sweet viper]

How many years have you had on the game

Were you around when marks actually meant what they should

[tribal lodge]

10+

[sweet viper]

So you should understand

Simple

[tribal lodge]

Yup but, I was bad and only marked 1 tank the IS-4 and Im still confused. Im agreeing with you?

Im just saying other peoples lies shouldn't matter more so if you have a big clan and are a high ranked clan. Those opinions should be the only ones you care about even on a competative level.

Why would john doe saying you bot farmed to get them matter?

If the devs would just figure out a fix to this problem it wouldn't even be an issue so all the anger and frustration should be thrown at them not other players. Its all the devs fault.

[near scaffold]

Marks were more similar to pc where most 10s were 4k or so for 3 marks and only really good tanks were above 5k, because of 6.0 changes everything got way better accuracy, reload, viewrage and also the decline of the player base means marks have only gone up

I think most marks are now min 5k

[storm robin]

Guys pls calm down and dont be toxic

[queen turtle]

Well people play them that is one, if they weren't popular you would not see them, also WG removed tiers 1 and 2 because they were not very popular, and it became a case of "You don't know what you have until you lose it" so players saw the removal of those tiers as a bad thing, and i agree, but you also have to consider that WG saw the numbers, and now they are bringing them back due to people asking for them, again the effect of "You don't know what you have until you lose it", got hard on us.

[queen turtle]

Nice i was first on PS so i have 9+ Nice to see a VET.

[queen turtle]

Some 3 marks are at 6K

[queen turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-patrick-star-i-love-you-ily-gif-4247002

Ok... I love you

[earnest canyon]

Its wild this thread has went this far. Yes the devs have made some mistakes along the way for sure. But player responsibility also comes into play stares at the clan that only plays wiesel tow 🤢🤮. The way I see it (this is gonna be a hot take) people who farm bots lobbies are just like people who only shoot gold with straight premium consumables. Different tactics same result🙄.

[tribal lodge]

True, don't disagree at all. However the devs know this is a problem and CAN find a fix for it. Weither they will Idk at this point. Very few games can get away woth hurting the overall end game part of thier game. However they keep adding worse and worse premiums so I just dont think they will care until they start lossing money.

[earnest canyon]

The reason they keep releasing them is because players keep buying. Simping for op tanks hurts all players and lines devs pockets. There is no reason for them to stop putting them out when people love abusing them.

[earnest canyon]

I think the thing that really kills it for me is the lack of tech tree equivalents too

[tribal lodge]

I fully agree, thats atleast a solution but, like you said they make lots of money so here we are.

[earnest canyon]

Like the players who bought t249,avre, 477, and rogal dorn are reinforcing bad behavior of devs which drives regular people away now we have bot lobbies. The thing that makes it worse is I seen a clip on reddit freshly posted post "nerf" of t249 yesterday clipping strv cheese wedge at distance(strv may have been a bit bold but still) and the comments were along the lines of "i want one" and "that's disgusting I love it" . That should tell you all you need to know about the player base and how much copium is being huffed🥴

[tribal lodge]

Honestly I bought the t249 played it once or twice melted a tank in 3 secs. Sold it and only have it for coop fun eventually.

Didnt know it was so op until after.

[earnest canyon]

And that's how they get you😆😆😆 at least you know its definitely unfair and dont abuse it

[tribal lodge]

Yup, I could have got a refund but its still a cool tank. Thats why I decided to keep it. Mabey it would be balanced mabey not. The vads is a far better version honestly. Of all 3.

But, remember it will be sold again so the people will buy and abuse come November.

[earnest canyon]

I think I hate the gau more 😬😬😬 but you're right the tanks that turn the game from a dpm game to dps game are very OP

Im going up amx line now cause ive run out out cw trees and as soon as I got to era 2 it confirmed what I said all along it feels like cheating

Plus at least you could earn vads not to mention it does less pen and damage than gau

[tribal lodge]

Yup, honestly I die to elcs almost exclusively. Which is an insane problem to have. No tank should kill your more then 50% of the time.

[tribal lodge]

Yeah, I still think in CW they have a places to fight against the light war. Begals, elcs, mk1s, now Xm800s.

Without gau and vads those tanks would fear mostly themselves.

[earnest canyon]

You right its more lvl of a playing field but Proxy camo is buns. But i cant get behind gau doing 916+ damage a second

[tribal lodge]

Yeah they are all way to fast including the xm800 and mk1. Reduce the rate of fire and they would be ok. However I still feel like cw needs an armor buff. No 20mm cannon should front penn almost every tank in era 2 thats ridiculous.

[earnest canyon]

For real no clue why devs thought that was ok besides oblivious $. Mk1 shouldn't have the pen it does straight up plus the proxy camo makes it a wallet warriors wet dream

[copper path]

Easy solution is to move. Can't die to them if you don't get hit by them

[tribal lodge]

Dont even, they have super camo, can hit you at full speed, and have the highest penn in era 2.

No other atgm kills me even close to that tank, no TD, no heavy. Nothing. Its an op over used tank that should not have the stats it does.

[copper path]

Lol I'd like to see the atgm user that consistently hits tanks going 50.

[sweet viper]

I mean it ain’t hard

If you know how to lead a shot

[glad helm]

WG removed what was a good policy, Premiums get more Silver and XP than Tech Tree tanks BUT never out performed them. Sadly this has been dropped and what we have now is a flood of Premiums for sale, 90% better than their TT counterparts.

[copper path]

Consistently no. Maybe 1/3 on a straightline target that's tangent to the missile

[tribal lodge]

I miss those days.

[copper path]

It sucks at winning. The 4211 is still the best era 2 tank for that. The TMNT tanks are probably the best overall winning and damage combined

[tribal lodge]

Any good atgm user that is not the case. Just because you are bad at leading doesn't mean everyone is.

[sweet viper]

Because no one plays them

[tribal lodge]

Wow, thats crazy thats why 75% of tanks are light or Tds with atgms. You barley see fv4211s after the nerf and the shredder and footcruiser aren't even close to top meta.

[copper path]

Lol I might be the last person you can claim that on

[copper path]

??? how does that relate to how good they are

[tribal lodge]

You sau 1/3 I assume thats from experience.

[copper path]

Popular =/= good. The Even 12 sucks at winning

[tribal lodge]

If they are good they are played alot.

[copper path]

Lol that couldn't be less true

[tribal lodge]

Any video game ever thats true.

[copper path]

People play dopamine tanks. Derps, high alpha

[sweet viper]

You’re going on about them having the best win rate and damage ratio that’s because they don’t get played

[tribal lodge]

Geshin, Destiny, Cod, so on.

[copper path]

Those are both per game. Battle count doesn't matter

[sweet viper]

What sucks the elc

Correct

[copper path]

Yeah. Horrible for winning matches

[sweet viper]

It’s a hard tank to use because people are trash with Atgms

And it’s that heavily abused with players only doing 1 shot worth of damage

[copper path]

Cool, this game isn't that. If it were true, people would play heavies nonstop. But they play the 4005, KV2, ELC, Weisel TOW instead

[sweet viper]

Most common argument for tanks I use it the Wiesel tow its op like every other tank in the right persons hands but its overall statics are awful across the playerbase

[tribal lodge]

Heavies are not good or even close to top meta in CW Era 2. Best 2 are 4211 and bzt 70. They nerfed the 4211 and play rate plummeted.

[copper path]

Good players make every tank good. That's why the 4211's stats are impressive. All of the other top winrate tanks in era 2 are played far more by good players and the 4211 has a normal distribution of players

[copper path]

The 4211 is probably the best era 2 tank at winning matches, play rate or not

[tribal lodge]

Not denying the 4211 is good. However they got nerfed aren't as good so aren't as popular. Simple as that. Never said win rate had anything to do with this. The only thing I said was the ELC is a problem and not good as is for era 2 as a whole.

Just like the mk1 and now XM800

[sweet viper]

When it comes to late game yeah you want an fv with some health and you feel safe

[copper path]

"it's an OP overused tank" you literally said it was good

[sweet viper]

Until you realise they’re 💩😅

[copper path]

That's still a ton of shots they can soak for you lol

[tribal lodge]

Yes its amazing. Win rate isnt everything and its a free tank not bought so more bad players own one. Its not an even scale to compare. Atgm also take more skill then point and shoot. You basing it only on win rate is a bad way to determine worth.

[copper path]

No, winrate corrected for all the bad players is still much lower than average

[tribal lodge]

Also by not good for era 2 I mean its toxic and nakes era 2 worse.

[tribal lodge]

i hardly hit them stationary

[tribal lodge]

Yeah your just saying that with no back up data. Soooooo.

[copper path]

https://www.wotstars.com/tanks/233793

lol

[tribal lodge]

sadly this is very true. while the elc is good it has a very long reload which relies on your team not winning or losing too quickly

CW matches are very unbalanced.

[copper path]

The elc is just toxic. Invisible with extreme alpha and a giveaway tank (biggest issue)

[sweet viper]

It relies on you ammo racking with every shot to utalise the reload

[tribal lodge]

Yup thats the point.

[tribal lodge]

i played one co op game and instantly ammo racks something

[sweet viper]

Wiesel tow on release was the worst tank this game has ever seen

[tribal lodge]

absolutely

arming distance really neutered it

Never had someone argue about unrelated things just to agree in the end lol.

[copper path]

And missile speed buff made it better than ever

[tribal lodge]

the acceleration buff makes dodging them harder but id rather that than shotgunned

like the gun is still good but obviously it’s a different kind of dangerous now

[copper path]

Objectively shotgunning was an awful strategy to begin with

[tribal lodge]

good old yolo play

[sweet viper]

I watched a clip the other day from when we had slower missiles Jesus they were awful

[tribal lodge]

i feel like i’d hate them if i ever tried them again

[sweet viper]

Bagels made era 2 shotgunning central

[tribal lodge]

hot swap shotgunning and all

those were the days

[sweet viper]

Surprisingly I had my 20k damage bagel game after

[tribal lodge]

i think my personal bests are about the same, 14-15k

[sweet viper]

Highest damage I’ve ever gotten was like 29k

In the marder 1a3

[tribal lodge]

you’re wild

my best was 18k in the 7C back in 2022

[sweet viper]

That was in co-op Thoe i wanted to try and get 30 but got bored

😅

I’ve got 28k 6 times since Tuesday grinding this event but no cigar yet

[tribal lodge]

i was gonna joke and say no coop stats but knowing you it wouldn’t be impossible

i suck at co op i’m genuinely an inferior player to multiplayer

[sweet viper]

Yeah nah world war is 13k in a jagerroo no bots

[tribal lodge]

my highest game came with xbox 360 still being a thing

[sweet viper]

Highest era 1 is 14k in the barn highest era 2 is near enough 20k in the bagel and era 3 is 22. Something in the EE all games no bots

[tribal lodge]

era 1 i don’t remember/care for era 2 15/16k era 3 18k

[sweet viper]

I hate era 1 it’s sooo boring

[tribal lodge]

me too

not even 600 total battles in it fortunately

[glad helm]

Opposite for me.

[broken carbon]

Lol, a bit bold? Going down the middle of the map on Province in the first 35 seconds of the game isn't bold, it's idiotic.

[broken carbon]

The Avenger isn't too bad. With only 90mm of pen, you have to really pick your shots. It excels when catching enemies off-guard but have you ever seen it fight a BZT-70, T-54D, T-55AM2B, or an Enigma? It can barely even do chip damage.

[broken carbon]

ATGM pen isn't as important after maybe 500mm of pen, which most ATGMs have. You should be making your argument over either the ATGMs speed or damage or something else about the tank, possibly its camo or stature.

[tribal lodge]

Hmmm true, the main point is that tanks has no downside and I believe I mentioned insane camo is a huge part of the issue. Also the armor is funky and doesn't take dmg alot.

Also something about the premium atgm makes it do dmg way more then non premium atgm

[broken carbon]

Or it's great at dealing damage with the first, and possibly only shot some people will get. You must consider that some people can only get one shot and, if they can play a tank that will deal insane damage with that shot, it'll draw them to it.

[tribal lodge]

Same with the jaguar 1

[tribal lodge]

Yeah, I definitely understand that but, Im on the side where 1 shots should be very rare in a single life game like wot. Its beyond unfair for people who dont have it. It also makes most tt tanks pointless in comparison. Same with the other era 2 problem children.

[broken carbon]

Bear with me @tribal lodge, I'm reading! Lol

[tribal lodge]

Np

[broken carbon]

Better for those of us who can use ATGMs, neutered it for those who had to shotgun.

[broken carbon]

Finally made it down here. Lol

[earnest canyon]

I wouldn't say that exactly you have to lead atgms at range now which makes no sense seeing as how the game assumes all atgms are laser guided

[broken carbon]

The downside is the minimum arming distance, long Intra-clip reload, long reload, and somewhat slow ATGM flight speed. Playing to its advantages allows you to deal with these issues.

I'm not arguing that it's a terrible tank, just stating that you're pointing out the strengths and indirectly trying to sweep its weaknesses under the rug. Trying to be unbiased here, that's all.

[broken carbon]

I don't think the ELC gets premium ATGMs.

[earnest canyon]

It doesn't but jag and tow do i believe

[copper path]

I mean I’ve 3-4 marked a bunch, hitting a cross shot on a fast target is far from trivial

[broken carbon]

So us humans have this very peculiar attribute. We tend to grasp onto these negative events.

When hitting an ammo rack, you only have a 27% chance of damaging it. That means a bit over 1 out of 4 hits to an ammo rack. Now unfortunately, we don't know when we hit the ammo rack and not get that percentage, only when we do (since there's a visual indication). You're probably hitting (or getting hit) the ammo rack more often than you think and merely not detonating, but brushing it off as just a normal hit.

[tribal lodge]

I hear what your saying but I dont rhink those faults are enough to balance its broken camo. Im not sure about the ammo because I dont own it. Can only go off what friends.

[copper path]

Nobody could shotgun effectively. They just did it cuz it was fun/they didn’t know any better

[broken carbon]

Also, bear with me y'all, I'm working. One second, duty calls.

[true cloak]

every shot that hits the ammorack does damage to the ammorack

only turns yellow after it takes a bit of damage

[copper path]

Saving throw means that it doesn’t always take damage

[tribal lodge]

Ammo racks is really only an atgm issue for me I rarely get ammo racked. My issue with the elc is the camo and it never doesn't do dmg. The bmp, begal, maurder, m1a3 bradly all can be blocked sometimes by say my the magach 6. Never did the elc not do dmg to that tank.

[broken carbon]

Yeah, but it got rid of the spam since now only those who didn't need to shotgun uses them. It's why you notice them a bit more now too since it's mostly more skilled players playing them (compared to before).

[copper path]

ATGMs definitely have an ammoracking issue. That’s my only complaint with them

[broken carbon]

Oh, I know, but she was talking about the ELC. The Marder 1A1, Begleitpanzer, and Marder 1A3 also get premium ATGMs.

[tribal lodge]

Thats why I support a module dmg reduction for all atgm.

[broken carbon]

Yeah, I just wanted to use the meme since you asked the question. Lol

[broken carbon]

Oh, I'm not arguing that it's balanced, just saying it does have its weaknesses.

[copper path]

I think the arming distance should be reworked. Not being able to brawl sucks. I feel like within 100m ANd moving faster than 20kph should be the trigger so that drive bys still don’t happen but you can still brawl

[broken carbon]

Very true.

[tribal lodge]

True but similar to the fv4005 long reload means nothing in this game.

[copper path]

Balanced and healthy are two different metrics. The elc is severely underpowered from a balance perspective. It’s also unhealthy

[broken carbon]

Only after they pass the "saving throw" mechanic.

[tribal lodge]

If your good that will not stop you from being top dmg every game.

[broken carbon]

This is why Deadeye is worded the way it is.

[copper path]

Yeah but good players will do worse in the elc than most of their other tanks

That’s what balance is. How players do compared to their other tanks

[tribal lodge]

I have not seen that personally. Unless its a bad game its normally 6,000 or more.

[copper path]

6000 is below what I average in a lot of my era 2s

[true cloak]

this is just a lie btw

the elc is very broken

[earnest canyon]

What???

[broken carbon]

Yeah, that's a module damage issue, but I get the point. Also, as far as I've seen, the ELC doesn't pen composite or ERA on any tank. Are you sure they're just not hitting somewhere there's none of that?

[copper path]

Nobody is arguing that

[tribal lodge]

Hmm not in my experience most players do less then 3,000. I normally do around 5,000 in era 2. Era 3 mabey is way higher.

[broken carbon]

One second, duty calls again.

[earnest canyon]

Big atgms crazy module damage and proxy camo with speed and broken damage model it be broken

[true cloak]

i mean the elc isnt underpowered either lol

its pretty high up there

[copper path]

It’s worse than average for 90% of players

[tribal lodge]

I am, plus while I was grinding that tank elcs always did dmg. While the rest were more of a 50/50 so it comes from that grind.

[true cloak]

that literally doesnt change the fact the elc is very broken and probably top 3 era 2

[copper path]

Depends on what data you look at. All time it looks like you’re right, everybody below 55% underperforms, above overperforms

[copper path]

If it sucks for 90% of players, is it a good tank?

[tribal lodge]

What sever do you play @copper path. Mabey EU plays different and has diffrent results.

[tribal lodge]

Wheres the proof of that stat percentage

[true cloak]

if its completely op and broken for the other 10% yes

skill issues dont make tanks bad

[copper path]

Only the top 1% matters. Everybody else is irrelevant. Amazing game design strategy here

[copper path]

Wotstars. I linked it earlier

[broken carbon]

The FV4005 also has its own weaknesses. Again, I'm not arguing if these tanks are balanced, but to completely ignore their weaknesses does not give the whole picture and shows bias. I'm just trying to help you give a more unbiased picture.

[broken carbon]

These things can be up for debate, but on another day. Lol

[copper path]

Not really. Balance is objective performance based. Toxicity is how it’s received by players

[broken carbon]

One you see super unis, things get weird. They're a different breed, man...

Ignore my stats. Those are like that because of luck.

[broken carbon]

Hmm, I'll have to look into this.

[earnest canyon]

I dont know about all that😆

[tribal lodge]

Like I said Im tracking longer reloads are a balance factor very important. However Im also saying that rarely effects how toxic a tank is. So its hard to give that much credit. Most atgm take a long time to reload honestly.

[broken carbon]

I'm just saying I'll have to get back to that another day as I don't have time to write a long worded essay. Lol

[copper path]

It’s a way to frame discussions so that things are more clear. There’s some issue in that some tanks perform better on the high or low end of players and the issue of what performance means. Dpg performance is very different than winning performance

[broken carbon]

I know I've done amazingly in tanks that people will argue are complete dog water. Things get weird once you run into super unis, things that were bad are amazing, tanks that look strong underperform (comparatively to them in other tanks). It's why reading a super uni's take on things has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[broken carbon]

Again, not arguing the toxicity or balance-ness of a tank, just trying to give the full picture. If you want to argue a point, you need to give full details or else you can be attacked for being biased.

[broken carbon]

Agreed.

[copper path]

And the % of super unis is so low that they shouldn’t really be considered in the realm of balance/game health

[broken carbon]

Also agreed.

[languid delta]

L take

[true cloak]

^

[copper path]

~3 out of 4 games won’t have a single uni player in them. Unis literally don’t how the game is normally played

[broken carbon]

I know that, since I'm pretty up there, my experience greatly differs from others, so I always try to see things from their perspective.

[tribal lodge]

Hmmmmm I suppose I hear you, but honestly the biggest problem with that tank is camo. The amx 13 is the same size with only 8 atgm and has way less camo and its atgm are worse in every way.

We can talk about everypart of the tank but that doesn't really matter when its the glaring issues that cause the problems.

The speed for example is about normal but talking about the speed doesn't really add to the convo?

[languid delta]

Imagine if game designers had that mentality. The best players of every game are the ones that establish metas and strategy. Not saying all other opinions or experiences dont matter, but game balance in a wholistic thing. You have to be dynamic to make something that is suitable for all crowds.

[copper path]

Yeah but most games have completely different metas for champ leagues vs silver/gold leagues. Establishing metas don’t matter when most players can’t replicate what makes meta picks meta

[broken carbon]

Roughly, but I wanna say the ELC is about 75% of its size. It's also got much different mobility stats.

[tribal lodge]

Right that was just an example.

[broken carbon]

Now, but the speed is comparable and, if you're pointing out differences, you have to point out the good and the bad.

[broken carbon]

Better players look good and thus, players follow their advice. It's the general population that shifts the meta, but the better players are the catalysts.

[copper path]

There should be some consideration for good players and balance at the high level but the primary focus should always be on the 99% of the playerbase rather than the 1%

All the toxic and broken stuff in the game and super unis win more and do more damage than ever before with just the same normal tanks.

[broken carbon]

I know I had someone on reddit step in and talk about how I perform equally well on all the tanks I play (they knew because they watch my YouTube channel).

But yeah, it's a hard balance between listening to the masses and "the elites". Picking one or the other just leads to problems.

[broken carbon]

ELC vs. AMX TCA

• Damage: 1300 vs. 1210
• DPM: 3471 vs. 3497
• Flight Speed: 370 vs. 220
• Penetration: 690 vs. 660
• Forward Speed: 70 vs. 65.2
• Reverse Speed: 28 vs. 25
• PtW: 23.01 vs. 26.01
• Hull Traverse Speed: 48 vs. 46
• Terrain Resistances: 0.4/0.5/1.4 vs. 0.4/0.5/1.4

This gives a better picture and you can make the argument, without the possibility of being called bias, that the ELC is much better and unbalanced (compared to the TCA). It takes more time, but removes most arguments.

Now the only argument that could be made against this is the fact that the cannon data was ommited from the TCA.

[copper path]

Given that the cannon is an extra like 2k dpm I think it matters

[broken carbon]

Oh of course, I'm just trying to show an example that, when making an argument, you should add the info (I don't have the time atm to add that info). You proved the point that that argument could be made, but being biased isn't the problem, just time constraints.

[broken carbon]

Nowhere in my statement could you say that I'm putting a slant on things that the data wouldn't prove.

[copper path]

On another note, the poor AMX and sheridan and BMPs, terribly power crept by the new atgm tanks in every way

I remember when the AMX was considered top dog

[broken carbon]

I actually played the Sheridan the other day. I didn't have much issue, but I can see where you're coming from—it didn't feel like the ATGMs were all that different than before the ATGM changes.

[broken carbon]

Yeah, gone are those days... Lol

[copper path]

Its not different at all. That's the issue. It's unique quality was that the atgms came out of the barrel at top speed and had a reasonably fast top speed. Now everything goes that fast (except the old amx, bmps, wz122, etc) and has the same dpm and an autocannon on top and it can't brawl either bc of the arming distance being an absurd 100m and it's not even that quick or stealthy and it only has 9 missiles. I want it to get the HE reload and accuracy from the M60A2, that might help put it in a better place with different options

[broken carbon]

Is it 100m? I thought it was 65m. I'll have to check.

[broken carbon]

Also, agree about the M60A2 thing.

[broken carbon]

Damn it, tankopedia doesn't have that info. Can you send me a screenshot of the minimum arming distance?

[copper path]

I'm not 100% sure and I uninstalled wot to make space for other stuff lol but I remember being appalled by the arming distance, like 80% sure it's 100m

[copper path]

The A2 is fun now with all the low pen lights. The front is immune to the Mk1 and it just eats them for breakfast with the HE on an 8s reload, I rarely use the missles

[broken carbon]

Isn't the M60A2 at 65m? I think they're the same, but I could be wrong (I barely looked at the distances that were set).

[broken carbon]

Hell yeah! I have a couple buddies grinding that line and I straight up told them, "if you're being targeted by a tank with an autocannon, just point the front at them. They most likely will do nothing but bounce". Lol

[broken carbon]

Same goes for the Avenger, which is something I've been playing a lot tbh since it shreds MK. 1s and ELC as well as being the greatest CW crew trainer.

[storm robin]

This player has better game knowledge than others but hey, u want more op tanks? So go for it

Thats why op tanks Spam coldwar, most of the good players play ww2 and only casual players balance coldwar tanks

[copper path]

Hey 75% of battles don’t even have even 1 uni (not even super uni). WG should totally listen to them and all their toxic complaints instead of the other 99% of players that enjoy the game and make the game actively worse for them.

[storm robin]

Balancing is a case of game knowledge.

But a Quick reminder, this thread is about Moe and not balancing so pls stop this conversation or create a own thread, thanks

[copper path]

Balancing for super unis takes super uni knowledge. WG couldn’t balance comp without input.

Super unis can’t balance pubs since we literally don’t know what a normal pub game looks like

[sweet viper]

Ah so the super uni’s are the reason it’s so messed up thanks for letting us now

[storm robin]

Pls swap the conversation, or i have to use a mod

[copper path]

Wdym? WG doesn’t listen to us anyways

[copper path]

An active case where super unis suggest something might make things worse for a lot of people and better for almost none

[storm robin]

@dreamy vector can u please lock the thread for some hours?

[dreamy vector]

I can lock it permamently or not at all

Those are your options

[storm robin]

They are writing about the wrong Themes and it doesnt stop

This thread is about moes and not balancing.

[copper path]

I’m trying to tie it back in

[chilly thicket]

Do it

[storm robin]

you don't even play the game and bring in completely wrong topics here, so unfortunately it has no value.

[copper path]

I’m taking a break but let’s not act like I haven’t experienced all of the MOE issues. Insulting and berating people for their “legitimacy” is just as off topic and unproductive btw

[storm robin]

I didnt even insult or berate someone?

[copper path]

You said my opinion has no value lol

[storm robin]

???