E4 rework

[grand marlin]

Dpm should much worse than e3 because this has turret they have similar reload currently

Pen 375 -> 350

Dmg 850 -> 750

Hp 2000 -> 2500

Camo nerf

Change class to heavy if possiple

[fallow ether]

Why does it need a nerf?

I've personally never actually had an issue with it.

[grand marlin]

E4 rewoek

E4 rework

[rain yarrow]

Just revert the armor

And the camo is definitely not an issue because it goes down to like 298

And that's horrible

[grand marlin]

It has bad armor

[grand marlin]

whole turret is weak point

[rain yarrow]

Not at all

[rain yarrow]

Angle

[grand marlin]

i dont have it

[rain yarrow]

E4 is one of the best t10 in game and in my opinion best TT tanks as well

[grand marlin]

i have 1v1 it

[rain yarrow]

1v1 it😂

[grand marlin]

😂

[rain yarrow]

The person that u went against it must have a really bad skill issue if u lost in a e4

[runic dove]

it was me, i won him every time

[rain yarrow]

I had everything a tank needs but its to much

[grand marlin]

Still easy pen i just had bad dpm

[rain yarrow]

Big gun ✅
Fast reload for the gun✅
Amazing armor ✅
Mobility ✅
Turret ✅
Side sc__ping capability ✅
Hull down capability ✅
Speed ✅✅
Accuracy ✅

What more could u need

[grand marlin]

.

[runic dove]

accuracy and mobility/speed are meh… but still great tank

[rain yarrow]

For how much armor it has its great

[grand marlin]

Its armor is still just ok

[rain yarrow]

U really do underestimate the armor 😂

[grand marlin]

no

[rain yarrow]

What was u using in the 1v1 against it

If the e4 is played correctly it will win 90% of the time

Unless it's going against op pen tanks/camo

But against normal tanks like a super or is7 or anything normal it will win

Not to mention it gets apcr as a bonus as premium with high pen

[mental holly]

1v1 my E5 vs your E4 @rain yarrow

[trail tiger]

Accuracy, mobility, dpm, and armor are meh. Hull down it’s trolly but even then 330 heat is at least 50/50 on the turret/hatch. The e4 and e3 are amazing pub tanks bc 850/375 is broken. One gets amazing armor, the other gets a solid but prem weak turret

[trail tiger]

With these changes, reclassing it as a heavy makes more sense. 340-350 heat, 750-800 alpha, 2500 hp and the camo gets nerfed on the class change by losing camo net. Ironically, it might be more OP with your suggested changes but less broken at least

[runic dove]

they changed thumper to heavy, they should do same with E4

[rain yarrow]

A e5 is good but stat wise e4 will pen every time

[rain yarrow]

Again u underestimate the armor

[trail tiger]

lower plate is pennable by tier 8 standard. Sides aren't great, the engine prevents sidescraping effectively. It can hull down well against standard rounds but it only has 6 deg and the cheeks/hatch are at best 50/50 against 330 heat. It wins those trades bc 850 alpha and 375 apcr but the armor isn't good.

[rain yarrow]

Lower plate is meant to be a weak points
sidescraping just don't over angle and it's fine

[trail tiger]

Yes and this is considered not great armor. Compare it to most tier 10 heavies and the armor comes out lacking.

[rain yarrow]

That's because it's a td but with everything combined that it has it still wins 90% of the time

[trail tiger]

Yes, as a tank it's great. The armor is good enough bc 850 > 400 and it has insane pen. But looking at the armor alone, it's not great

[rain yarrow]

The armor is very trollish and still good enough to handle heavys

[trail tiger]

Yes, good enough to ensure favorable trades

[timber crane]

It's fine.

[raven glen]

i agree the e4 is basically just a heavy tank lol, but i dont think a nerf is necissary especially to that extent

[grand marlin]

This not even huge nerf

[raven glen]

thats changing the whole class of the tank so yeah its pretty huge, it doesnt need a change its not overpowered and its not underpowered its pretty balanced, you should be rooting for any other op tank to be nerfed not the goddamn e4 lol

[trail tiger]

E4 is the best TD in the game. It's super OP by every metric

[raven glen]

nope not really, easily countered by a jgpz e100, or when im playing it anyway

with no premium shells it cant pen the superstructure of nearly anything

the premium shells make it somewhat op

[trail tiger]

Almost 300 standard pen with high alpha and decent armor against standard make it OP. Having the single best shell option in the game as it's premium round makes it broken.

[rain yarrow]

Ah yes let's compare the armor with a 420 pen to the e4 or any tank🤡

E4 totally doesn't have better everything else compared to it at all

[elder oak]

People who shoot ap with the e4 are the people who prefer to bounce 5 times and die & lose the game instead of using 375 apcr which is better in everything . The E4 is Op it has it all armor awesome gun even decent camo & a turret. On some maps those sniper Tds like grille taran 268 are better but the e4 can play on city maps as good as on those open field maps.

[raven glen]

The e4 can’t angle its side armour, it can easily be flanked, it’s a good 1v1 tank but if there is more than one person it’s going to be destroyed, and there are plenty of other good 1v1 tanks against the E4. It’s more on the player than the tank itself, they are most likely good in most other tanks not just the E4

[spiral saffron]

The E4 has crutch stats.

A heavily armored wedge shaped cupola
The best APCR in WW2 (tf does drop off mean?)
And a troll lfp

[elder oak]

most tanks are getting destroyed in a 2vs1 a taran gets destroyed an avre gets destroyed so thats not a valid point. E4 is overbuffed as it is and needs a nerf in dpm, pen or armor not all but at least one or 2 out of the three points

[spiral saffron]

Nerf it's pen drop off so distance actually matters
Nerf it's cupola armour
750 Alpha

Done

Or you know. Change the shape of the cupola so it's not a 🤬ing WEDGE

[dusk ferry]

Make the cupola a weakspot. The rest of its fine.

[trail tiger]

The opposite actually. It's the tank more than the player with the E4 compared to other tanks. It can pen almost anything, the armor bounces standard rounds very well and is trolly against prem. It has the single best gun in the game (dpm, pen, accuracy, alpha) and doesn't sacrifice much for it

[vocal forge]

E4 is already goated no need for gold spam my dude

[elder oak]

ofc 375 apcr pen why not use it ?

[vocal forge]

Gold spam in general =cowardice

Don't ruin someone who's grinded a super heavy by gold spamming them in the face. Turns the game from chess to checkers.

[elder oak]

so you mean i should bounce a few and let him win because he will feel better ? Sorry as said im all for a nerf of the e4 but when i am playing the tank ill play it to max effectiveness.
Its like saying play worse so your opponent has some fun.

[vocal forge]

Winning by gold spamming is like Winning a 🏅 while doing steroids its hollow at best....especially when paired with 3 straight premium consumables(btw it's crazy what you can do with 295 pen when you use RS to aim and not rb)

E4 just needs the cupola fixed is all

[spiral saffron]

Imma be real. Premium rounds are needed on some tanks.

E4's are just over-tuned. Lowest pen drop off in the game AND highest APCR pen is a stupid combination

[elder oak]

its not like premium rounds will insta win you the fight but it helps even if i know the weakpoints of the tanks 300 pen -20% means i will bounce 375-20% it will go through even when unlucky with rng. Im sorry but most good players have to carry their teams and its crucial to not bounce through bad rng in those moments.
The reason why good players have to carry is because some ppl rather try penning the super heavy with standard ammo and failing instead of loading prem and win.
I still like my super heavies like e100 and E75 but i wont drive infront of a T9 or T10 TD and hope that he will shoot standard ammo u have to bait them, sidescrap, wiggle etc and after he misses u can push no magic involved

[spiral saffron]

Again. It depends on the tank

Some premium rounds literally are a "uh, no you can't do that" button.

I REALLY wish we were able to see the specific penetration rates of individual shells, would seriously clear up these misconceptions

You don't ANGLE against an E4 APCR shell. Either it ricochet's, misses or pens. Very rarely will it bounce

[elder oak]

APCR Shells are usually the best type of shell good shell velocity and can good through spaced armour, fences and tracks.
If the Premium is APCR i usually use them only
If the Prem is heat i usually drive like 50/50 because Heat is slow and cant go through tracks etc

[spiral saffron]

Name a tier 10 with HEAT premium

[elder oak]

Foch 155 JagdE100 Czolg E100 E5 T57 T58 Amx30B Grille 15 Amx 105 RhmPzw M48 M60 M48120mm Centurion AX Wz1115a Quillin etc.... tbh i think most tanks at tier 10 have HEAT prem

[spiral saffron]

M48 120mm. The HEAT round isn't any slower than it's AP round
QL, same
Jag, same

Loading AP on these tanks for higher velocity than HEAT is pointless

[elder oak]

still u cant shoot through stuff and sides.
APCR as a prem has no real weakness compared to Standard AP, Heat does.

[spiral saffron]

Can't shoot through obstacles but you can pen spaced armour

[trail tiger]

It’s easier than ever to get millions of silver with CW. Just spam prem in everything. It’s a handicap not to

[elder oak]

Gl penning an E100 with heat through the side skirts

[spiral saffron]

I said you can not that you will. It depends on how much distance is between the screen & armor

[elder oak]

its an overall rule if i can shoot the tracks or the side i use ap normally, if hulldown or showing only frontal armor Heat it is.

[vocal forge]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I get what you and @elder oak are saying "work smarter not harder" but when you're spamming gold with your 3 stack premium consumables you aren't really working at all just 🧀ing the enemy. The reason e4 is "broken" and many other td's is because you can spam premium ammo and not pay gold. It detracts from the gameplay as a whole.

Like @spiral saffron said "Some premium rounds literally are a "uh, no you can't do that" button."

[trail tiger]

They're easy to use for anybody, I spend $0 on the game, why wouldn't I take every advantage?

[vocal forge]

You arent getting what im saying my dude. Gold racks ruin the balancing of the game. That switch to change currency for premium ammo was a bad decision by WG.

Does it not feel dirty and like cheating to you when you're just gold spamming the enemy into the ground?

[trail tiger]

It'd be dirty if it was gold only. That's called P2W, that's bad. I'd advocate for removal or limitation but as is, it's free, why not use it?

[turbid wyvern]

Dawg

This is an E4 buff

Not a nerf

Or a rework

Wtf

[turbid wyvern]

Nah. Premium is for cheaters like that guy said! So what if my Tier VII has 145 pen stock against Tier VIII, or my Tier VIII has 212 stock vs Tier X? It's unfair to use premium.

[spiral saffron]

Please. Stop.
If premium rounds are locked to gold ammunition only that will KILL some tanks and literally not affect others

Pz7: it's dead, don't even try

V5: doesn't care, it's has 303 AP with basically 0 drop off, that's perfectly usable

Kv5: that has 219 premium APCR at tier 8.

Ts5: wouldn't care, has a good standard round

Premium rounds are only a problem on some tanks I'm getting bored of saying it

And BTW, this is coming from a superheavy main, all I get shot with is premium rounds

[vocal forge]

So you like getting gold through the turret face and upper front?

Like e4 gold spam is turn your brain off easy

[fallow ether]

What even is the issue with the E4 again?

Because from what I'm getting the only real issue is the armor when hull down.

[spiral saffron]

#1335837459015274566 message

[spiral saffron]

I'm not saying otherwise, I'm saying that hitting every premium round with gold only payment will literally affect tanks differently, ruining some entirely

I REALLY hate the E4 and it's BS penetration. But that's an E4 APCR problem not a premium shell problem

Lock all premium shells to gold only and suddenly lots of tanks are restricted to awful standard rounds

While others will not care because their standard rounds are fine.

Like I said before

[fallow ether]

So is the issue the high pen with premium or something?

Like. Can someone actually tell me what's wrong with the E4 or is this just someone's monstrous skill issue on display?

[vocal forge]

Its exactly that e4 is goated, the only rework i could even suggest is a slightly weaker cupola compared to e3

[fallow ether]

?

Meh

I dont really see that as an issuem

Its a tank destroyer. Dealing a punishing blow is it's thing.

Also when compared to other tank destroyers with 152-155

Its premium penetration falls short of literally every tank of the similar caliber besides the Obj 268 4 and the Ho Ri 3

[nimble quiver]

Arguably the best gun in the game alongside good armor with moderate camo

[fallow ether]

So it's sort of a all rounder tank destroyer?

That can do everything well

[nimble quiver]

Pretty much. Means it's rocking one of the best guns and does everything well to boot, no significant weakness to counteract the gun

[fallow ether]

Is that really that much of an issue though?

How fast can the reload get down too? With a maxed out crew and equipment?

[nimble quiver]

yep, because of the gun. Its armor is on par with and in some cases better than heavy tanks and its got enough camo to ambush mediums. Reload can get down to about 14s. Its able to out dpm pretty much whatever it encounters as well as out trade them with its high damage. Premium APCR also means its capable of overmatching as well as penetrating spaced armor

Most tanks make a trade off to have a gun this strong, the E4 does not.

[fallow ether]

So the problem is that the E4 doesn't have a downside for such an amazing everything?

Personally I think the performance is typical of American tanks. As i always thought they were generally all rounders. M48A5, T110E5, all those things.

But I guess the E4 is a bit too powerful since it doesn't have a downside.

[nimble quiver]

I will say though i dont think the rework in the original post is the way to go. Id go about it by weakening the cupola to around 150mm, the premium pen to 350mm, and the damage to 750 (without reload speed compensation)

[spiral saffron]

Reshaping the cupola would also be nice

You know, the hitbox

Because right now the front of the cupola is literally a 203mm thick STRV

[raven glen]

It should only have an armour nerf, APCR pen drops mildly from distance, i don’t know why they buffed the armour because it makes it harder than the E3 to deal with in your standard tanks

[spiral saffron]

APCR is meant to lose more penetration over distance than AP right?

[raven glen]

Yeah

It loses penetration faster than HEAT

It’s only valuable close range it’s a troll round from over 150m

[spiral saffron]

And that's why the E4 is a problem, that pos has the lowest penetration drop off of any APCR round in WW2. At only 10mm per 400m (the distance between the 100m & 500m stats in the menu)

Meanwhile:
Waffentrager: 56mm
Maus: 48mm
Gsor 1008: 101mm
IS7: 40mm

And it has the highest penetration of any APCR round in WW2 at 375. The only higher pen rounds are HEAT on the Russian TDs & Jag

So, highest pen of any APCR round while losing the least over distance of any APCR round.

The E4 is built like a short range brawling heavy, but it has a gun that can punish heavies from well out of their range & just shrug off the retaliation

[turbid moat]

Why nerf the best vehicle in the game, specially as it’s available for everyone??

[keen rivet]

It being the best in class is a pretty good reason to nerf it

[trail tiger]

Literally the single best all around gun in the game. DPM, premium round, alpha, accuracy, if every tank could choose their gun, most would take the e4 gun. And, unlike other strong guns (4005, Waffle, Taran), the e4 gets armor that's strong enough. Hull down it doesn't get penned by standard rounds and it's trolly enough against prem rounds. It's basically good enough everywhere else so you don't have many downsides for access to an amazing gun

[opaque shale]

The E4 also isn't terribly slow

[trail tiger]

Yeah that’s what I mean by it doesn’t really sacrifice anything. Good enough speed, good enough armor, decent camo

[vocal forge]

You guys know it has limited traverse right? Like it 90 degrees left and right. It's also not crazy fast either it goes 35. Like yes it's not the turtle e3 is but it's not a speed demon with its 6 degrees depression. Yes it's a really good tank don't get me wrong but I don't exactly think it's in need nerf besides the cupola.

[gleaming sinew]

@rain yarrow @grand marlin let's be real

ever single 850 needs to go down to 750

yeah not fun losing half ur hp for to something you seem because you barely peaked for .5 seconds

[grand marlin]

that is what i suggested

[gleaming sinew]

and I would know this because I played plenty of 850s

they are not balanced at all really 😒

and the 268 out here with 850 on a 11 second reload is absolutely insane
meanwhile the e4 has camo and armor

[gleaming sinew]

nice terrible take from you as always

[opaque shale]

268 is insane and very OP

[nimble quiver]

oh no it can only shoot everything in front of it?

[gleaming sinew]

is something else man

[vocal forge]

Not having a 360 turret is a disadvantage is what I'm saying. But I understand your pov being the map situation we have not really being conducive to flanking🤣

[fallow ether]

While I don't think the E4 is insane.

It does still have a turret

[trail tiger]

It is

[fallow ether]

Which is a massive advantage over most TDs

Most armored tank destroyers don't actually have turrets.

[vocal forge]

Are we mad e4 is too good or e3 is useless?

[trail tiger]

E3 is also insane

[nimble quiver]

E4 is too good. E3 is also very good

[fallow ether]

Aren't most tier 10s in the "very good" category?

I haven't had a single tier 10 I've been truly disappointed with.

Besides the AMX 13 105.

That thing is waay too inaccurate

[trail tiger]

I mean almost all of them are better than every tier 9 and are always top tier so that alone makes them "very good" in a sense

But some tier 10s are much better than others

[nimble quiver]

very good meaning its better than the rest. They cant all be very good. E4 is pretty much a better heavy and the E3 imo is the best casemate

[fallow ether]

You have a point

[trail tiger]

The 268 is close. Different roles, similar overall performance

[fallow ether]

E3s are scary

[trail tiger]

E3s are often the sign to just go somewhere else

[fallow ether]

But they are so rare for me i never really registered them as a problem.

[nimble quiver]

yeah fair point. Id rather play the 268 since i kinda know how to play camo but id rather have an E3 on my team

[trail tiger]

Same as 4211s in era 2 when you're playing a missile tank. Not worth engaging, find something else to kill and deal with it later

[fallow ether]

How yal feel about Obj 705A?

One of my favorite tier 10 heavies.

[nimble quiver]

just a much worse soviet E4

[fallow ether]

D :

I mean

You aren't wrong.

Your opinion on IS-4 versus Maus?

[nimble quiver]

E4 low diffs both 😈

[fallow ether]

Y'know thats funny because I absolutely demolished one with the IS-4

Bro bounced off twice.

Lucky me.

Damn. This makes me want to get the E4. I'm at the T30. But I'm out of premium.

[rain yarrow]

Lower the pen to

[rain yarrow]

Is4 due to better pen and mobility

[gleaming sinew]

yeah but e3 is slow and map rotation doesn't suit it rn

still has stupid armor tho hulldown

and in general

with the same apcr

you just don't get the turret

[gleaming sinew]

268 has the spooky im just gonna dpm you with 850 and u can't see me

isn't that just fun

[gleaming sinew]

no

unless we're talking about tds

[trail tiger]

And yet it improves player win rate about the same as the 268 and more than any other TD besides the e4

[gleaming sinew]

in fairness

the e3 is easy to play

[fallow ether]

Well it seems most people disagree with this nerf funnily enough

[gleaming sinew]

very easy to play

just revert the e4s armor

that's all we want

and for 850 to 750

that's about it

meanwhile in a another tread someone's asking for the sturm to have 2300 alpha

[trail tiger]

Nah, 350 Heat and 750 alpha and it's fine. Then it's just more like a low HP heavy

[nimble quiver]

it needs a nerf but this one only addresses part of the issue while making it a heavy giving it access to stabs, more health, and fights other heavies in mm

[trail tiger]

It probably would be a buff not a nerf. 25% more HP is a lot, makes it able to brawl very effectively

[nimble quiver]

put its health above pretty much everything except superheavies

thats a pz7 with better armor and gun right there lol

oh and faster

[trail tiger]

And 350 apcr is stiff eff you pen

[spiral saffron]

And when you don't have the mobility to relocate easily?

[arctic stream]

the performance isnt typical of american tanks

m48 doesnt come close to the e4 in performance

the e5 comes close but thats only because it gets 1 buff per 6 months