Western Tech Tree Expansion

[inner orchid]

Here is my proposal for extending the Western Alliance tech tree..
The basic goal was for the four nations in the tree to have access to at least one each of the following tank lines:
A MBT line
A ATGM carrier line
Autocannon lights
Cannon lights

And I'd like to think I've accomplished that. Each nation has a number of additional tanks in each.

I fully intend to get images for each new vehicle, but for now it's a list. Some of the names are shorthand, and some of the vehicles are mildly obscure.

[native junco]

The last thing the game needs is more weasels

Other than that

Not bad

[graceful meteor]

MORE WIESELS

[brazen shuttle]

-1 do not approve

[graceful meteor]

skill issue

[brazen shuttle]

Only joco knows why.

[graceful meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/krill-issue-skill-issue-krill-issue-gif-25572478

[potent pasture]

It will be added to CW before it becomes a tier 10

[brazen shuttle]

I would raise so many complaints. Heck it’s probably against the rules but I’d make so many throw away accounts just to make it a bigger deal than the community would make it out to actually be 🫠🫠🫠

[potent pasture]

@inner orchid

You've added the swingfire, what about the striker?

Also you gonna make a post for premiums?

[inner orchid]

I thought the Era 2 spots were too crowded for it to be in the tech tree.
Premium status is an option.

And yes. Eventually. This took me a lot longer than planned.

[potent pasture]

Would era 3 work?

[inner orchid]

Possibly?
I'm not a fan of the idea though, especially compared to the Warrior HOT.

[potent pasture]

It could work considering it would have a 5 round launcher

[inner orchid]

Again, possibly.
I don't personally like ATGMs that can't fire from zero though.

And I certainly wasn't going to move the FV426 for it.

[lone tide]

2 amx 13/90?

[inner orchid]

Yes.
There is a variant that uses a Cockerill 90mm, and that's the one I've included here

Alternatively, there is the one equipped with ATGMs

[lone tide]

Ok

Those vp tanks I never knew about

Also no Italian line?

[lone tide]

I do like that French TD line

[inner orchid]

I've stuck to the existing four nations.
Italy would likely be in the Western tree, but there wouldn't be a huge selection of tanks.

[inner orchid]

They're tanks I have mentioned before, but they're not the most out-there tanks.
There's a bunch of variants of them, but I've stuck to ones that fit together well enough

[inner orchid]

Casemates to Casemates with ATGMS to ATGM only.

[lone tide]

I would include that in my stuff if I had the room

...as22 as top of the amx 13 line

interesting

So char futur 4 as top tier

[inner orchid]

Pod-style turret, 105mm gun.
To me, a solid progression from the DF-105

[inner orchid]

Yes, but with all the gubbins it were to actually have

[lone tide]

Makes sense ig

[lone tide]

And those are?

[inner orchid]

I'd imagine a more powerful gun and some semblance of armour.

[lone tide]

I'd want a more accurate model in game based off the actual model irl

Not the char futur 4 wg made

Cool model but eh

[inner orchid]

That model is something I've seen floating around too.

I suspect they're related but different designs

[lone tide]

Wait post

That model

I know the as22 model

And the as22 is the futur 4

[inner orchid]

Here's the Char Futur 4

Here is the AS-22 model

Turret shape is rather different

[lone tide]

Yeah that

I know

[inner orchid]

A while back I came across the Char Futur 1-3 as well.

[lone tide]

There were also 3 more blueprints

Yeah those

Ig those blueprints went into the TC1,2, and 3

[inner orchid]

But I've seen a number of other AS designs

[lone tide]

Yeah I know

[lone tide]

Excluding the futur 3 cause that one was blueprinted with oscillating turret

[lone tide]

There are 12, 21, 22, 31, and 40

And then some unknown one thats at the saumer tank museum

1 person on secret project forum says it's the AS56 but idk

Literally no documentation on that one

Idk why WG said that the future program only had 7 tanks in it tho

[inner orchid]

Here we go, found it

The AS-22 isn't overly similar to any of these

Both part of the Leclerc development, but that lasted 20+ years

[lone tide]

There's the TC1, TC2, TC3, AS 12, AS 21, AS 22, AS 31, and AS 40

[lone tide]

That the oddball of the family

[inner orchid]

It should be mentioned, but there's still a fair few things I left out

[lone tide]

And that one un documented one

Ok like?

[inner orchid]

The Leopard 1A5 (120) and VT-5?

XM66

T69 and T54E1

There's a lot in there, but there's only so much space. No Wheeled vehicles either

Oh, the LKs are developmental Abrams

[lone tide]

Oh ok

I meant for the futurs

But ok

[graceful meteor]

thats crazyyyy aint no way you said that 💀💀💀💀💀

[brazen shuttle]

???

[graceful meteor]

nahhhh nothin

[hidden crane]

maybe on the m113 hellfire line LOSAT has a premium with different mechanic with the kinetic missiles that pen everything it faces

[inner orchid]

LOSAT is post-2000.

If I could, it would be here

[inner orchid]

Let's start off with some images!

Firstly, the M56.

The T166 was the loser in the Ontos competition.

The XM1101 is a M113 variant with twin Hydra rocket launchers.

The M113 TOW is fairly self-explanatory.

[potent pasture]

No its not

Explain it

[inner orchid]

The M901 is an evolution of the above, equipped with a much improved design

[inner orchid]

It's the glorious M113 equipped with a single TOW missile launcher.

[inner orchid]

The M113 Hellfire is part of a programme in the 80's and 90's to have a ground mounted Hellfire weapons system. It is equipped with 8 launchers.

A HUMVEE was also part of this programme

The T37 exists as the US tier VI, so should be decently well-known.

The XM723 is part of the lineage between the M113 and the M2 Bradley.
Armed with a 20mm autocannon, this example also has a TOW launcher.

The XM2 Bradley would basically be a slightly worse but lighter M3A2.

The COMVAT was a prototype Bradley variant armed with a range of CTA autocannons. 30mm, 45mm and 40mm were tested. I understand that ATGMs were to be fitted too.

I would personally recommend the 45mm variant, as this would be semi-unique amongst IFVs.

The T29 is an immediate post-war heavy, and a development of the T26E1.
Armed with a 105mm gun, it's very similar to the T34. The more recognisable T29E3 could also be used instead, as could a T32 variant.

The T95E4 was a T95E6 armed with a powerful 105mm smoothbore gun.
The tank remained as a mockup, but the gun was tested.

The T39 EAV is exactly what it looks like. A prototype engineering vehicle based on the M26/46 armed with the 165mm gun found on similar vehicles.

The M728 is effectively the production variant of the above (well, there were a bunch of additional steps), and is based on the M60A1. Same 165mm gun.

The M60E3 was a competitor to the eventual M60A2. Same weapons system, but in a more conventional turret.

The XM803 was the successor to the MBT-70, armed with the same gun and many of the same systems.

The T95E1 is the variant of the T95 armed with a smoothbore 90mm gun.

The T54E2 was an early attempt to upgun the M48.
Based on the M48 chassis, it is armed with the 105mm T140 gun, although an example was fitted with a T123E6 120mm gun.

The LK 10522 is the earliest tank in the M1 Abrams (GM) line that I know of.

The LK 10352 is closer to the end result.

[stoic sorrel]

No centurions 🥲

[inner orchid]

The LK 10372 is the immediate step before the XM1 (GM). Very familiar, but armed with a 25mm Bushmaster coax.

The M1E1 was an early M1 variant armed with the 120mm.
Still equipped with the short turret, with additional non-armour steel plates to simulate weight.

The M1TTB was part of series of upgrading the M1A1. Equipped with a 120mm and an unmanned turret.

The Electric Drive MBT was a project to see the feasibility of electric drive tanks in the mid-80's.
Armed with a 155mm cannon and an unmanned turret and weighing ~40 tons, it was based on the Abrams.

The M19 is a twin 40mm Bofors armed SPAAG based on the M24.

The M42 is a more modern interpretation of the above, based on the M41 instead.

The XM246 was the vehicle that lost to the M247. Somehow.

Armed with the same cannons as the Gepard, it was one of the DIVAD projects and is based on old M48 hulls.

This is another of the DIVAD designs, but instead by Sperry and armed with a version of the rotary from the T249. It instead fires the 35mm round from the Gepard.

The T249 we're getting Tomorrow in WWII.

The AGDS is an Abrams based SPAAG.
Again, armed with the same autocannons as on the Gepard.

The HS.30 is an early APC/IFV armed with a 20mm autocannon.

The Leopard that reached production was the "A" family by Porsche. The main competitor was the "B" by Rh. Similar characteristics and prototypes with 90mm and 105mm guns.

The KPz 07 Rh was a real design, and would make for a good Era 1.

The KPz 07 P was an early step towards both the Leopard 2 and MBT-70.

The Keiler is not a Leopard 2, although it is incredibly closely related to it.

Here is an early Leopard 2, the Leopard 2K.
A number of hulls and turrets were part of the Leopard 2K programme, and ideally this should be the earliest type.

The PT11 is a later design, with an autocannon on top.
Failing this, the PT14 could be used instead.

This Flat Turreted variant would be a lighter and faster Leopard 2.

The P48 was part of the Leclerc tank development, and at one point there was a proposal to mount the turret on the hull of the Leopard 2

[potent pasture]

If it was part of leclerc development shouldnt it be in the french stuff?

[inner orchid]

Not when it's also part of a Franco-German collaboration project.

Leclerc development was messy and lengthy.

[potent pasture]

IMO put it in the French stuff and replace it with this

[inner orchid]

The Jadgpanzer 1-3 is similar to the 4-5 we have already, but based on the smaller HS.30 chassis.

The M40 is a 105mm Recoilless Rifle, and found its way onto a number of platforms. Here it is on the HS.30, still retaining the 20mm.

The RJPz 4 Jaguar 2 is a derivative of the JPz 4-5 family armed with a TOW

The Jaguar 1A3 should be very similar to the existing premium. Armed with HOT ATGMs, these superseded the Jaguar 2 above.

This is a twin HOT launcher on the chassis of the Wiesel 1.

RU-261, RU-361 and RU-363 in order, all developmental parts of the Marder 1.
I cannot seem to find an image of the 263, as all that's coming up is the Soviet TD.

This is the Wiesel variant I propose for the tech tree, one armed with a 20mm and a HOT ATGM.

A 30mm variant with no ATGM also exists that might be more palatable.

The Panzerwagen is a proposal from the mid-50's based on the chassis of the HS.30.

90mm and 105mm guns were proposed, and I suggest the former.

The DF-105 was a Marder chassis equipped with the turret and gun of the AMX 13/105. It was a joint French/German collaboration.

Effectively a German TAM (there are differences though), this is a 105mm armed lighter tank equipped with a 105mm gun.

A 120mm version was apparently built, so that is included as well

[inner orchid]

The AMX M4/50 family.
Four variants, four slots. The latter three are armed with 120mm guns, the former is armed with either a 90mm or 100mm depending on exact prototype

This is the FCM 12t hull.
The turret was to be the standard FL-10 from the AMX-13, but it was never mounted to the hull. A dummy weight and an AA turret with quad 20mm was fitted however, the latter is in the image.

The AMX 12t is the tier VI in the WWII TT.
It's effectively an early AMX 13, and probably should include the 57 L/100 variant

I won't be including images of the next two, as they're well-known, but here is the AMX 13/90 Cockerill.

The AMX 13/105 and the AMX 13/105 '87 are next.

The first is the tank we know from WWII, but the '87 is a much improved variant that stayed a prototype only.

The DF-105 FL-20 is an improvement over the DF-105 from earlier.
More powerful 105mm, a secondary 20mm coax.

The AS-22 is one of the lineage of the Leclerc.

[idle valley]

My only concern about the DF105 in era 3, is that it would only fire HEAT. The tank historically never had a dart round.

[inner orchid]

That's why it's in Era 2

The DF-105 FL-20 and the AMX-13/105 '87 both have upgraded guns and can fire kinetic rounds

[idle valley]

Why did I think the suggestion was an era 3 tank?
Nvm

[inner orchid]

The Lorraine CDA is what the Lorraine 40T was developed from.
A fast Casemate TD with 100 and 90mm options.

The AMX 50 Foch was the first attempt at putting a 120mm gun on the AMX M4/50 chassis.
A 120mm gun (no idea if it's autoloaded or not) and a 20mm AA gun.

The AMX 10 ACRA is a Casemate gun-launcher system based on the AMX 10.
Equipped with a 142mn system, a similar design was mounted to an AMX-30

The ELC EVEN NA2 is an ELC EVEN equipped with the NA2 turret, a design that could mount SS-11 and SS-12 ATGMs.

The VP-90 equipped with a MILAN ATGM is exactly as it looks.

The VPX-110 is a development of the above.

The VPX-110M is a further evolution, equipped with a twin MILAN Launcher.

The VPX-5000 (HOT) is a yet further evolution, equipped with four HOT ATGMs

[inner orchid]

The ELC AMX is AMX's entry into the ELC project.

The ELC Bis is an improved design, with the ability to mount a more powerful 90mm.

The ELC EVEN 90 is the competitor to the above two

And here is the 30mm armed variant.

The ELC EVEN 120 is a version of the EVEN chassis armed with four 120mm rocket launchers.

The ERAC is a lightweight amphibious tank armed with a 105mm capable of firing the HEAT from the AMX-30 family.

The AMX-10C is the tracked version of the AMX-10RC armoured car.
105mm gun, very little armour.

The Mars-15 105 is another one of those light tank families that just failed to get adopted.

This one is armed with a 105mm gun.

Some Warriors were equipped with MILAN launchers an an expediency, I believe as a part of the Gulf War?

The Warrior 2000 was a proposal to upgrade the Warrior.
Armed with a 30mm Bushmaster, there are no ATGMs (although you could easily put on a MILAN)

Stormer AD, a SPAAG Stormer with a 25mm Rotary autocannon.

The Warrior DRV was a shorter Warrior designed as a part of the FFLAV competition.
Armed with TOW ATGMs and a 25mm Bushmaster, this should play like a lightened version of the Desert Warrior.

The VERDI-II is the top of the line.
Equipped with Starstreak missiles (not ATGMs, but with the penetrative power of a 40mm SPAAG) and a 40mm CTA autocannon.

FV432 with a WOMBAT.
Basically a UK M113 M40

A 90mm armed Warrior

The RO-2004 is part of the RO-2000 family of export oriented light armoured vehicles.

Designed to be simple vehicles, they weren't seen as desirable. The RO-2004 was a 105mm cannon armed variety.

The FV201 we have at tier VII isn't fully indicative of the type. Armed with a 17 Pounder, later FV201s were more developed and had a 20 Pounder gun.
Attached is a Flamethrower tank based off one of the later prototypes

The Nemesis is available as a tier X, but in Era 2 it gets better gun performance, mobility and access to the 25mm.

The Chieftain 900 was an export-minded variant of the Chieftain.
Most notable differences include the improved armour and a 900 HP engine.

The Vickers MBT Mk 1 was an export success.
Designed as a cheaper Centurion, it saw production in India.

The Vickers MBT Mk 3N is basically the same as the premium we have.
The 3i is an improved variant.

The 3M is coated in ERA.

The Vickers MBT Mk 4 was the first tank to use the Vickers Universal turret.
Equipped with a 105mm and upgraded to a 120mm gun, the use of an aluminium hull led to a certain fragility after a particular parking incident.

[potent pasture]

Why you gotta do him dirty...

[inner orchid]

The Vickers MBT Mk 7 took the turret of the Mk 4 and mounted it to an actually good hull. The hull of a Leopard 2.

An excellent tank, German export laws killed the project.

The ENT was a proposal for a 140mm armed tank planned for production at around the year 2000.

The gun was tested on several platforms, but the tank project fell through as the Soviet Union had collapsed.

[lone tide]

Germans are known to be extremely petty when it comes to weaponry projects

Like the p90/mp7 project

It wasn't just export laws

[inner orchid]

One of the very early ATGM designs, the FV4010 was a weapons carrier for the Malkara missile. A first-gen ATGM equipped with 203mm HESH warheads.

[lone tide]

They literally killed it because they didn't like that Vickers turret was better than their own turret

[potent pasture]

Nope, they killed the project due to changing their export laws as Vickers and Rheinmetall found a loophole in exporting the leopard 2 hull to the uk

[inner orchid]

The FV426 was an equivalent ATGM carrier for another type of HESH-ATGM, and was based on the failed FV420 line of vehicles.

No images, but I've included a FV420, a list of variants and a proposal to mount a Blue Streak missile onto a FV426.

The FV438 is the successful successor to the FV426. Armed with Swingfires, it's a more functional and sensible design.

And our last tech tree vehicle, the Warrior HOT.

[potent pasture]

Many images later, he is done

[inner orchid]

I found a few vehicles, as you can see

[potent pasture]

Should do the same for eastern alliance

[lone tide]

Eastern alliance can only have so much compared to western

[inner orchid]

#1304842982880710676

I did, in part

[lone tide]

Tired my best to make some stuff unique in eastern line

[potent pasture]

Tbh forgot about that one

[lone tide]

But overall it's kind of the same dessert but in different flavors y'know

Still waiting on that T-84 wg I know you have it ready 👁️

[inner orchid]

There's just fewer tanks available

[lone tide]

well crap

i read closer and it even tells the proposed/estimated weight of each of these tanks

so now them being heavy classed or medium classed is entirely up in the air

oh but wg made the amx 50s mediums and they weight more than 50 tons so

so yeah mediums it is

[indigo pike]

If only

[inner orchid]

We absolutely do have "mediums" that weigh more and heavies that weigh less.

Tank role is important.

[lone tide]

M yea

Would love this to be a top tier

AS V2

or I think that's what it's called

AS V7?

I think it's a 2

[potent pasture]

with the use of necromancy, I bring this post back from the dead (with good reason)

That reason being, with the recent addition to warthunder with the "Marder Clovis", that could be an addition to the 2nd German light light in this proposal and take the place of the DF 105 as the tier 3 and lower the DF 105 into the tier 2 slot, filling the gap

[misty charm]

Lol you guys really love tanks 🤣

[inner orchid]

I have that tank already included in the tree as the DF-105 FL20

[torpid granite]

Bring more Wiesel’s into era 3 that is a fantastic idea

[inner orchid]

As I have stated a fair few times, I support the addition of all tanks.

[torpid granite]

Any wiesel is just bad for the health of the game

[ashen lotus]

I predicted someday wg will forced changed western, eastern independent into countries cuz nobody want scroll all way down to find where i want to grind lines

[inner orchid]

The Wiesel isn't actually the smallest tank on that proposal.

As for the specific versions requested, they're both HOT variants. Shouldn't be as dangerous as the TOW derivative.

As you can clearly see though, there's plenty of other, more conventional designs.

Also, I need to redo this. Some vehicles are at the wrong tier, like the RO2004. That one has a very powerful 105mm gun.

[torpid granite]

Which one is smaller then ?

[inner orchid]

@torpid granite

[graceful meteor]

whats the smallest?

[lone tide]

Elcs/Vp-90

[graceful meteor]

😂 (vp-90)

[shut thunder]

Vp-90 looks goofy

Kinda reminds me of the ww2 British universal carrier

[silent sluice]

Where T-32?

[idle valley]

Nah, if we are going to get the T32, it needs to be the T32E1.

[silent sluice]

Uh yeah agreed

More armor and squarer look i like

[manic rain]

Tall

[manic rain]

I believe Hellfire missiles are self guiding

[idle valley]

Which is a system we already have ingame

[shut thunder]

Yep the death chariot has a basically heat seeking atgm in the monster mash mode so at some point I'd expect some cw tanks to have fire and forget missiles

[manic rain]

Just saying that having eight of these missiles where you can get a lock on to a tank then immediately duck behind a rock especially in a small tank destroyer in my opinion makes it attempting to kill the tank kind of hard

[slow knot]

Do you have any information about it?
I’m curious to know what weapon it used.

[inner orchid]

I genuinely do not, but I would expect the usual 1960's options.
105mm L7, 120mm Rh or 152mm

[inner orchid]

Oh good lord, the thread certainly does need a refresh

I didn't realise how ancient it is

[brazen shuttle]

Still disapprove for a single reason

[shut thunder]

French light branch when

[potent pasture]

still approve for a single reason

[brazen shuttle]

you are now my mortal enemy lmao 😂

[potent pasture]

You say that as if that's a bad thing

[brazen shuttle]

I think it would be if you are actively fighting my fight for a T10 Mk. 13 👀

[potent pasture]

Not my fault your idea is stupid

Continue to do so and I'll suggest it goes in era 3