ATGMs Need a Rework

[potent grotto]

Yep pretty much, especially the "he who can not be named" wrecking Era 3.

[hoary delta]

I mean most ATGMs and tank speeds mirror real life. The issue you’re having is flight profile. Most ATGMs start slow and accelerate so the top speed doesn’t happen right away.

As for tank speed, most good players don’t shoot ATGMs on the move. A tank going 70 firing an atgm at point blank almost always is a bad idea by a bad player.

For min arming distance, that’s not a great idea either. Games often devolve into cqc brawls. Pulling around a corner, firing a missile, and pulling back is a necessary feature for atgm tanks or else they’d be useless in forward positions

[hoary delta]

You mean the Weisel, the tank with worse winrate and damage than almost every tier 2 and 3 MBT?

[void lance]

The ATGM speed statistics mirror real life. The actual speed in the game does not. As in the missiles are not actually traveling at the speeds listed in the garage. They also accelerate extremely slowly.

Also no, good players shoot ATGMS on the move quite consistently and it doesn't matter if you have to be good to do it if it's physically impossible to do irl and prevalent in game. Like the Wiesel for example.

[hoary delta]

They are not full speed when they're fired. They take time to accelerate (except the Sheridan and A2). It's much harder to hit stuff while moving. Any bump or elevation change needs compensating. Good players (me) will occasionally shoot then accelerate to avoid return fire or drive back and forth but rarely try to hit full/half speed shots like OP claims. People driving 70 aren't going to be very effective long term. If you want "irl" tanks aren't confined to a 2 square km grid and engagements typically happen much further away. WoT isn't a simulator. Certain irl things can and should be tossed out for enjoyment

[void lance]

I think I made it pretty clear that i don't think wot is a simulator. By saying it multiple times.

Also I understand they aren't full speed when fired. As I have pointed out that they need to accelerate and that it takes too long.

It's just a bit absurd how grossly off ATGMs are compared to IRL counterparts. What we have in the game is much more cartoon-like compared to reality than the rest of the game.

[jolly vale]

Note that the average ATGM travels at about 250m/s, which is equivalent to 900 km/h, which is 120x faster than a normal tank

It definitely should be faster

[void lance]

Didn't you know it takes 5 seconds to travel 400m at 900kph 😆

[hoary delta]

Unless it comes out of the barrel at 80 m/s and needs to accelerate over 1km. Then you’re looking at ~4s for 400m. Go play the Sheridan and look at the travel time, it’s so much faster to target bc it comes out full speed

[void lance]

Tank speeds? I just saw that. No. Maybe on road top speeds yes it's fairly accurate.

Speeds off road in this game are like a cartoon. Not such an issue in WWII but certainly in CW.

[void lance]

The BMP3 for example takes a little less than 6 seconds for a missile to travel 500m. That's an average of less than 100m a second on a missile that supposedly tops out at 370m a second. So in half a kilometer it's going a little over 1/5th of its top speed? That seems wrong.

500m = 5.5 ish sec
800m = 7sec
1000m = 8 sec

It's never getting anywhere near its supposed top speed. Even after 800m it's still only traveling at 200m a second. 54% of its "top speed." That can't be right.

Also I'd like to note that in no way am I saying missiles on wotc should be exactly like real life. Just that they can and should be balanced in such a way that they play a more similar role to their real life counterparts. Instead of being the yolo brawl weapons we've grown to love and hate.

Honestly even if it is accurate it doesn't suit the game.

[hoary delta]

I agree that the top speeds are wonky. A lot of stuff lists a high top speed but never gets there. I think it's balance. Difficult to use can offset power level. WG literally has unrealistic physics built in. Artillery can't arc that much in that short of a distance. The gravity value for shells in game is something like 30x what it is irl

[void lance]

I just don't think they are balanced in such a way that they are used in an even vaguely accurate fashion.

They are almost entirely used to yolo at close range which isn't even possible in real life. The way they are balanced has created some of the worst, most toxic, and annoying gameplay I have ever seen.

Instead of being used as an effective mid to long range tool that cannot even fire while moving they are used much like a shotgun driving at full speed yoloing.

It's a very passive weapon system that is anything but that in game.

ATGMs need a rework.

[hoary delta]

ATGMs used at yolo range are atgms that aren't being effective. Good players don't yolo. They use ATGMs from range early and mid game and then sneak into strong postitions for ambushes late game

[void lance]

Yea you are wrong. I haven't dropped off 100% in my BMP3 in years and almost all I do is close range yolo runs. Missiles are grotesquely slow (I'll admit especially on the BMP3). So slow that the most consistent and effective way to use it is to get as close as physically possible to ensure every missile pens. It shouldn't be that way but that is the case on most ATGM platforms. Regardless of skill it shouldn't be more effective the closer you get. They should be worse the closer you are. Not better.

The point I'm making has nothing to do with player skill. Missiles in this game are grossly unrealistic and both promote and allow gameplay that is the complete opposite of how guide by wire missiles are used. Period.

Making missiles accelerate many many times more quickly, be impossible to fire over a set speed, and have a short arming distance would not only make them much more effective at their role as a TD weapon but also solve much of the annoyance and frustration caused by ATGMs in general. It would also make missiles more realistic and change the meta to more closely but still quite loosely replicate tank battles of the time. Again not saying wotc is a simulator and I wouldn't want it to be.

[wise lion]

It’s a game. There are almost zero real life tactics used in this game—even PC version. Circle of death? Face hugging? Ramming? Flipping? Hull down is about the only thing. People don’t want real life squeaky tracks and vacuum cleaner engine whine—they want movie fantasy.

The maps are way sized down. Missile tanks wouldn’t have to worry about yolo heavies at all in real life chugging across open terrain in 10 seconds. CQC with missiles is a necessity of the fantasy of not spending most of the time driving across the map or just sitting 99 percent of the time.

The missiles are slow in part because it allows players to dodge them—again fantasy. Additionally it slows most players down as they stop or slow to fire and wait to guide their missile in. Finally something like the Weasel has to fire on the move because it is much harder to stop and fire due to the rock and dip it does that makes following/reacquiring a target rapidly almost impossible.

[potent grotto]

Yep, the one everyone says makes Era 3 the best ever.

[void lance]

I'm in no way suggesting "real life squeaky tracks and vacuum cleaner engine whine." Realistically wire guided Missiles can't be fired on the move and take 100m+ to arm.

I'm asking for faster velocities, a short arming distance, and a max speed limit on firing missiles. In no way is that excessively realistic or limiting. It is using realism to balance a weapon to be more beneficial to the game. Which is how most things are balanced.

In no way are extremely mobile, well camouflaged, huge alpha tanks using hit and run tactics good for the game. There's a reason there isn't anything like that in WWII. It's awful gameplay.

[wise lion]

Hit and run tactics are very real tactics though—predate everything in the game. That is what calvary and tank warfare is. Fixed fortifications are monuments to man’s stupidity after all.

Maybe to you it’s awful gameplay but knife fighting other lights is a lot more fun than ww2 tank humping or the player base sitting behind rocks waiting for someone to appear/drive in front of the gun like it’s a trench warfare game. Controlling a missile while driving is no easy feat and should be rewarded.

.

You complain of slow missiles but use the BMPs as an example which has some of the slowest accelerating missiles. If you don’t like slow missiles, play a tank with faster missiles.

Can’t wait for the exciting end of games you suggest though with two missile tanks unable to kill each other because of minimum arming distance and having to stop to fire.

Or the lights and tds will just sit on each other, particular when behind in hp, because better to try for a tie breaker than chance when you are 1 shot vs 2.

.

Or the light just being pushed around by the heavy because it’s too slow. That’s exciting and balanced for sure!

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Why have a missile warning if you are just going to make the missiles faster to defeat it? You are essentially starting to dumb down the game instead of diversify it.

If you are one that is afraid of other missiles, if that’s so much your weakpoint, you should take the missile warning and smoke, and sixth sense. But no, let’s dumb it down and “balance” it because it’s too hard and everyone wants to take the exact same equipment nor face any adversity. Here’s your participation trophy. 🏆

[tropic adder]

Couldn’t have said it better

[void lance]

One of the reasons light camo was nerfed in CW is because high speed, high camo tanks using hit and run tactics were ruining the game. I am clearly not alone in thinking that it's bad if an entire class of Tanks were nerfed to help mitigate it.

The Wiesel is the most widely hated tank I have ever seen in This game. Clearly I'm not alone in disliking that style of play.

WG has been very careful to prevent any high camo high speed tanks from also having high alpha in WWII. It simply isn't a good idea and it's not fun to play against.

[void lance]

Yes I used an extreme example to accentuate my point but there are plenty of missiles traveling at very similar speeds as the BMP3. Rakpanzer comes to mind.

What I said is that missiles are too slow to perform TD duties.

2 missile tanks being unable to kill each other would be an issue. If they both were the same tank and hell bent on face hugging one another for minutes at a time. i don't think this player base has the attention span for that but hey you got me there.

20m arming distance for example would be a pretty easy amount of distance to create if needed and would negate most of the issues you've proposed.

[void lance]

I get that I'm posting a lot of text but where exactly did I say "stop to fire" as my suggestion? I said a max top speed to fire. That could be 20kph or 50kph in no way is that stopped.

I've said IRL wirte guided missiles can't be fired on the move but that isn't my suggestion.

Adding a top speed while firing missiles would force tanks like the Wiesel to slow down a bit when firing on the move. There are many benefits to that and in no way would it create boring gameplay.

Slowing era 2 and 3 down just a hair would be greatly beneficial.

[void lance]

Thank you for making this about my personal ability. I never said I have issues dealing with missiles. So because I dislike the way missiles are currently balanced i must be bad at playing against them? I never said I personally have performance issues with ATGMs. I think it's hilarious that I can shoot missiles out around cover into the sky and bring them down on the tops of Tanks. It's ridiculous that missiles are that slow.

I think they were poorly balanced and implemented.

I think that the way they are balanced creates toxic yolo gameplay that almost nobody enjoys playing against.

WG has taken a sniper rifle and balanced it so poorly that it's used as a shotgun. For the games health a middle ground would be more suitable.

[wise lion]

I didn’t make this about your personal ability—this is not DMs but a watercooler discussion and “if you are one of” specifically goes to that general audience. Different parts apply differently to people.

A 20 or 50 or 10m minimum fire distance will cause more headaches than it resolves. First will be the complaints/bug reports of I hit and did no damage—particularly 1/2 meter within distance. Then there will be the I was just outside of range and it did no damage—and they were. That coupled with WG BS manipulation (new players get a bigger safezone), or what people believe are terrible servers (it’s really just WG manipulation). We don’t need to give them more tools to screw players over.

In regards to light nerf, it was 1 tank (Armadillo) they set up to over-react to. They even manipulated the testing and manipulated testing a number of times. No one was complaining about widespread light issues before. The BMPs did not have their multi-systems yet, the T92 is crap, the Brits were slow mostly ineffective guns, the Bulldog didn’t rely on camo—is big—and still doesn’t, similar to Sheridan (that doesn’t have a reverse btw). The other lights were never wiping out a tank in one drive by. The Armadillo also has a bit armor.

Oh and look it’s not the camo because the Begle is doing that now, yes in part with missile but even if you miss with the missile the gun has plenty to take down most tanks that have some damage already.

Here is an idea—how about take down the freaking rof on some of these multi-systems (particularly the German lights and BMP-2) instead of changing a whole system, crippling tanks without multi-systems like the Starship?

[wise lion]

As far as yolo, particularly with era 3, it started with the 72 heavies. Armor (not taking damage) and speed lead to yolo. When TD ops come out WW2 slows down because taking damage increases. Tanks like the Absolution yolo’d. There tends to be a lot more yolo with new tanks until players figure out weaknesses.

There is little punishing driving forward as even missiles are not that effective from the front and a minimum arming distance will only encourage driving forward into the missile tanks. The Molot could have been a solution but it was also given speed and armor so it has no reason not to drive forward. So yolo in era 3 started with 72s, was added by German heavies that have good front armor and speed, then the Molot. The “most hated tank in the game” (it’s not btw) the Weasel is not actually yoloing so much (into the front) as much as it is flanking. “But it’s shooting my rear!” Well yes if you are driving away yoloing to the other side it’s going to shoot your rear. As the complaints about ram damage noted, it’s not made for direct frontal attack.

As far as slowing down to fire, that’s already built into the game in controlling and guiding the missile while driving. If you think it’s too easy—reduce the control—ability to turn the missile. But if you make it where people can’t fire then see above in regards to complaints—“I was driving 1 km under!”, lag, unexpected dip (because the maps are not nearly as flat as a real battlefield), WG manipulation. Plus now you added being rammed above speed momentarily or lengthily and not being able to fire.

There is a particularly problem in regards to the weasel slowing down—it dips horrendously. It didn’t always do that and people use to slow down and fire. WG in adding that dip—adding more—compelled players to fire while driving.

[wise lion]

If missiles are an issue, countermeasures should be used, missile warning, and smoke. They could easily introduce a type of chaff / auto chaff or even a smaller/personal, more frequently available rear smoke.

[hoary delta]

Missiles specifically are not an issue. They’re difficult to use in game with how fast everything is so they’ve been given advantages. Missiles generally suck in era 3, the Wiesel is broken and annoying but not actually as good as mbts at the end of the day. In era 2, fast autocannons are the issue, it’s just that most autocannon tanks have ATGMs attached. It’s a similar meta to the dillo days with the dillo, mobat, cat, t72 running around everywhere. The 4211 and slow season pass mediums blunted the issue but the German lights blew it open again. CW (era 3 and 2) needs strong super heavies. Slow (45kph max) heavies with great all around armor to slow the pace so atgm tanks don’t feel incentivized to yolo bc they can’t hit anything on the move

[wise lion]

So a slower Molot?

I think the maps need some tuning for defensible positioning—not beat back 1/2 the team positions but ability to use map cover and to use armor to fend off 1-2 rushers.

[craggy patrol]

Comparing the 4211 to the molot is definitely somethin

[next escarp]

Yea the speed for the missiles seems a bit off.

[void lance]

Lights camo net got nerfed because when properly equipped all lights could not be detected unless they fired or they got proximity detected. This is cancerous and it's the only reason the Wiesel is such a problem. Every light could do what the Wiesel is still doing. I think we can all agree that wasn't good.

The Begel is its own issue and for the most part simply has waaaay to much offensive capability with essentially no downsides. It's not like you are sacrificing durability. Almost none of the tanks in E2 have armor anyway.

[void lance]

Era 2 has yolo because IFVs are the meta and they specialize at close range assassination. Even the BMP2 which is far from the top is difficult to counter. Drive in undetected, nuke someone for 1k with a missile, RBRT auto cannon for another couple hundred damage, pop smoke if you think you'll take damage. All while circling at 70kph+.

The only counter to this are wolf packs and other lights which are fast enough to chase which just compounds the yolo.

[void lance]

Era 3 has yolo because there is no punishment. Pound for pound the alpha at era 3 is really low. Even ATGMs only take 25-35% of top tier tanks hp and they are really hard to use at era 3 largely because they are seriously slow. Tier X TDS smack For 45% or more of many top tier tanks hp. They have real stopping power, the ability to punish mindless rushing in a way nothing in era 3 can, and the ability to penetrate almost anything almost anywhere.

[wise lion]

Ummm…no not every light was proxy spot only—the larger ones in particular. This started with ATGMs are the problem and now it is camo somehow, but camo was really never the problem.

The T92 has some of the best camo—and it’s still pitiful. So no it’s not the camo that really makes a difference. People can deal with camo in true vision.

You can say “cancerous” as an unmeasurable description but that just seems to be a bad paradigm of “WW2 style only” mentality. Stealth/silent running is a part of a lot of games, if you can call it stealth with true vision. People need to get their head out of the sniper view though. All the complaints about WW2 base camping sniperview play is encouraged by the spotting/outline. People fire only when told to do so. No thinking.

That’s why a lot of players enjoyed the light camo—updated gameplay—not gameplay from nearly 2 decades ago. Updated gameplay that made you look around. Did players enjoy getting “assassinated” in one swoop by an Armadillo? Nope and can understand particularly as the Pattons were being shot through the front and if in back the turret traverse was atrocious. (Great for WG to sell a premium and push converting xp though). But you can’t do “assassinations”—You have to give players a chance to fight back—to at least feel a challenge. It’s why players hated the arty one shots.

Not being outlined is not the problem. People shoot them all the time in CW. Delivering all the damage at once is not the game people want to be on the receiving end of. It’s not really a game. It does not tap into challenging.

Before going and jacking around more with basic mechanics though, how about they look at rof on the multi-weapon missiles or even encouraging more use of HE against these supposedly lightly armored targets that seem to take no damage even when a missile pierces the body of the 11mm vehicle. Instead of breaking more stuff, they should fix what they have.

I would put the BMP-2 as just a touch too strong. It’s not impossible and you’ll likely lose a good bit of health to kill it. The Begel is just lights out no chance if any competence.

The Weasel—it’s just a victim of WW2 saboteur bias that WG apparently takes in with Mountain Pass is great in CW—player requested! The small corridorish maps they’ve pushed into era 3 have limited the Weasel (and pushed the heavy yolo). You don’t see the same heavy yolo on CW maps. It’s rarely on top nor is the mm flooded after the novelty wore off. (And no ops)

[void lance]

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say camo was the problem with lights and ATGMs. I did say it was the only problem with the wiesel. The Wiesel is one tank and in no way represents all the ATGM platforms in the game. We were discussing the light camo net nerf and I gave my opinion on why it was nerfed. Seeing as it has an un nerfed camo net the wiesel is a great example of why.

It's pretty clear to me that you either don't actually read or just see what you want to see.

🤟

[hoary delta]

The actual stats disagree with you there. The 4211 is still the best tank in era 2, other tanks with somewhat useable armor also tend to have high win rates. The meta for good players is very different than the meta for the other 95% of the playerbase. Only the ignis and dillo have very high winrates out of all the autocannon/ifv tanks

[void lance]

I see a lot more begels (and tanks like it) performing extremely well than FVs so I'll agree to disagree. Not that the FV isn't great. I'll even go as far as to say the FV is a meta tank. I just think many more of the ATGM platforms, particularly the multi weapon tanks, are meta compared to armored tanks like the FV. Doesn't seem like any other armored tanks have nearly the same impact as the 4211.

[hoary delta]

There’s no agreeing to disagree. FV4211s (and some other tanks with useable armor) have more of an effect on winning than the begel. Wotstars has data on it. It’s empirical, not hypothetical

[void lance]

Winrate isn't the best metric. The more popular a tank is the closer to a 50% winrate it will have simply because there's a higher probability of a popular tank being on the winning and losing side compared to an unpopular tank. It's far from useless but it's not the end all be all of statistics. Also win rate gets skewed by more experienced players buying premiums. Also premiums don't have to grind from stock. That certainly hurts overall winrate of TT tanks as well. If all tanks were played the same amount by the same people yea it would be perfect.

[hoary delta]

You’re right, winrate alone isn’t enough. Lucky for you, wotstars accounts for that. It compares each players win rate in that tank to their overall winrate in that tier. That’s what I look at. TLDR, I’m still right about the actual statistical power level for most players

[void lance]

You might be right statistically. I'm not sure.

I think you'll have a hard time convincing anybody that the IGNIS and Begel aren't the best tanks in era 2. Yoloing ATGM spamming tanks with speed, camo, and auto cannons are king right now. At least in the hands of the skilled.

[hoary delta]

The ignis is strong, the begel isn’t as strong by the stats. And yeah the begel is nutty for good players but that’s only 1% of players

[potent grotto]

Are ATGMs becoming the Defacto Arty for CW? They are in the game, can remove a large amount of hit points in 1 go, you either love them or hate them and the game is very different without them. Just a thought. And arty is still obviously still worse.

[hoary delta]

No they’re TDs at worst. Direct fire, ~40% HP as alpha, can’t miss you for 500 HP

[void lance]

No. Arty requires little to no ability. ATGMs do require quite a bit of knowledge and skill.

My issue with ATGMs is in how they are balanced and consequently used. Especially at era 2. The Wiesel is the only issue at era 3 and that's not ATGM related.

[hoary delta]

The Weisel could honestly be moved to era 2 with just a HP adjustment and not be that good

[void lance]

The wiesel sucks. It has no DPM. I just think it's the most toxic and annoying tank I've ever had to play against.

[hoary delta]

Idk I don’t think ATGMs are excessively problematic in era 2. They could do with a 10-20% speed boost for usability. I think the real issue is available tanks. The German lights are shiny and the ignis is free. The best meta imo was after the Magach line was released. Since then everything has been fast and era 2 really needs to be slowed down with more 4211 like tanks

[hoary delta]

It does seem rather toxic. Still not arty but certainly annoying. WG does balance pretty well but they have no issues making toxic tanks (taran, Weisel, 183s)

[void lance]

I've been convinced that an arming distance wouldn't work.

I still believe forcing tanks with ATGMs to slow down to at least 40kph to fire would be a beneficial change at era 2.

At era 3 the ATGMs desperately need sped up so they can perform a TD role and punish yoloing. Era 3 needs alpha damage at range.

[hoary delta]

Yeah a maximum speed you can drive while guiding would work. Maybe a hybrid system where you can’t be going faster than 20kph and be within 50/100m. Allows ATGMs to be used in brawls but also allows exploratory shots while driving full speed if you’re good at aiming but doesn’t allow drive-bys

[void lance]

Agreed. Something that slows tanks down while guiding or just being forced to slow in order to fire a missile would force fast tanks with missiles to be exposed for longer when yoloing without being overly punitive. At least at era 2. At era 3 I don't think it's necessary at least not on the lights.

[wise lion]

Anything requiring looking at two different parts of the screen simultaneously is a no go. Remember post 6.0 when they moved info from the middle and people lost their minds? And that wasn’t even critical control your tank info.

As said above, 1km over, poor display, dips, bumps, and not to even within control lag/server delay and you’re going to get tons of reports and a generally ticked off playerbase as the game becomes even more unplayable.

WG can’t even get name display and autolock to work reasonably well like would be expected for a game made after 2010. Introducing complicated likely busted mechanical features will just drive more players away.

[wise lion]

You can’t make different mechanics at different eras. How would you propose for this to even function / work? Describe the process a player would have to go through when approaching another tank please.

It seems to me that your issue is only with a couple tanks. Are there other tanks besides the Ignis and Begle and BMP-2 you have an issue with? Can’t help but notice these are multiple weapon tanks where it would be simpler to just slow the missile reload to solve the problem. Surely you are not bothered by the BMP-1’s pitiful gun. The Sheridan can do the same with HE (and has no reverse to yolo away) and does it slower tanks in WW2.

It actually blows my mind a bit that these Ignis/Begle/Marder tanks are ok but many of the Italian TDs are near trash.

@void lance
Just want to point out that I did not raise the spectre of camo first but you mentioned it twice—and very specifically the camo nerf and boot strapped it to your ATGM suggestion. Only then did I address it. I do not feel it is putting any words in your mouth when you describe things as such.

[hoary delta]

When the tank is going faster than 20kph, there is a minimum arming distance of 100m. Simple.

The bmp1 gun is deadly if it is in a position to hit shots.

When would you ever fire HE out of the Sheridan unless you’re out of ATGMs? What even is this example?

What are you on about Italian TDs?What do they have to do with anything?

[wise lion]

You must just be trolling or lost your mind now.

You say “simple” but your suggestion is simply terrible. The game barely functions with basic mechanics of shells hitting tanks. And now you want to introduce NOT one but TWO additional conditions? —That somehow a player is expected to track at the same time as drive, not get rammed, hit a moving target, while maintaining focus on the target and plan on driving away??

And then if you manage all that—when you are running away being chased, you would not be able to fire/damage the heavy tank bearing down on you or any other tank—unless you essentially stop to get rammed to death. BRILLIANT!!!

Oh and 100m? —Let’s just take away 1/2 of the WW2 maps being playable at all.

This is the kind of bad idea that you see go through Supertest and players saying yep sounds good because they only play with bots.

Any gun is deadly if in position to get shots. —>And not getting shot back! What kind of nonsensical point are you trying to make. The BMP-1 gun is derpy as heck and barely pens rear armor on heavies. Barely pens some lights if it manages to land where you aim.

And how can you not understand the Sheridan HE? It loads faster, does the same damage when it pens, does damage when it doesn’t, travels faster on average, costs less, and does more modular damage over area. It is particularly useful in damaging other lights and rears of tanks (where the complaints about being assassinated by missiles are coming from). You are generally not doing drive-by’s with missiles on the fronts of tanks either. Sheridan missiles are limited, slower on average than HE and better used for the sides of heavies, particularly from medium distance and not so much used on other lights. They come out fast which makes it harder to be moving and hitting a moving target that is not driving away from you. Again missiles alone, and camo/missile combos are not the issue of wiping players out in seconds.

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In regards to Italian TDs, Italians overall—WG expresses incredible concern with Italian damage output but has no qualms about dumping the Begle in the mm, a tank that can destroy a red in seconds.

Multi-weapon systems have more damage output than the Armadillo ever had and they have loaded the Begle with too much, plus speed, plus reverse speed, plus pen, plus B-S bouncing off its “driver shields,” plus camo—the combo on this tank is too much. I would drive past a BMP 1 or Sheridan or a number of missile tanks to eliminate a Begle. The next missile tank that is comparable in the assassination / yolo role, which seems to be the thrust of this thread is the Ignis. Then the BMP-2. After that in Era 2, what is there?

[void lance]

Yes I mentioned it as one of many contributing factors to yolo ATGM drive buys and once again on a completely separate issue regarding the LT camo net nerf which is ancient history as far as current balance is concerned. I in no way even so much as insinuated that camouflage was the main issue. Saying that I believed light camo is the main issue regarding ATGMs needing a rework is 100% putting words in my mouth.

I'll clarify one last time. LT Camo isn't an issue and hasn't been for quite some time.

[wise lion]

Your words. You even later say the only problem with the Weasel is the camo.

And btw there are high damage, camo tanks with speed in WW2 btw. Bourrasque, T49, Turtle, 10 shot Bulldog, etc.

I’ve asked several times now. Besides the Begle and Ignis and BMP-2 what missile tanks are otherwise problematic?

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—-

Changing a whole system for a couple of tanks is a bad idea and will cause more problems than solutions. They should change the tanks. Changing a system so WG can try and skip out on refunding people for changing their paid for tanks is very corporate / anti-gamer and in the end won’t stop the liability. This recent turn of “Oh it’s a system change” and not a nerf is shenanigans for WG to try and sell op tanks and act without consequence. Demanding and receiving refunds for OP tank nerfs tamps down on releasing op tanks to begin with. They need to seriously invest in more basic parts of the game development where the game is innately fun.

[void lance]

How many times am I going to have to say that when I was discussing the light camo net being nerfed I was referencing the Wiesel as an example. It still has an un nerfed camo net and it's a blatant issue.

You cannot read sir. Good day 👋

[wise lion]

You can try and rail split all you want but your words are your words.

Still what other tanks are so yoloistic that it demands a drastic change to a mechanic?