#aaa
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ill post here the physics problem i cant do
Well, alright. This works, I guess.
thx in anticipation btw
when i do an excersize and there is only 1 tube
and so
i put the equation = cost
its in italian
Yeah, that'd be better.
its better if i translate it
Because if you don't understand it, there's a risk you'll miss an important detail in your explanation.
true
Oh... Well, that's fine, I know some services that can translate text on a picture. I can at least get a rough understanding.
but this was just general knowledge
welp let me find a problem
A horizontal section of the aorta, with a radius of 1.25 cm, is crossed by blood with the same speed at all points, 0.41 m/s. In a consecutive horizontal section there is an aneurysm whose radius is 15% greater than that of the aorta. The density of the blood is
1060 kg/m 3
Calculate the difference in pressure between the blood passing through the aneurysm and the healthy part of the aorta.
Neglect the viscosity of the blood.
ok so i got an idea
ex n 50
so since its giving me radius instead of S
im thinking since its a circular thing
Hold on, the aneurysm has a radius greater than the aorta?
...am I thinking of an embolism?
basically it gets slower since more radius
Right, okay.
No.
fuck
You can see that with basic dimensional analysis.
probably yes but i dont recall that word in english
Okay, so area is in two dimensions, right?
...what?
Okay, no.
since its asking
Stop thinking about it in terms of "things you do".
Try to understand the situation the problem is describing.
so
Same speed? Hm, an unusual assumption, but alright...
In any case, you can still use Bernoulli's equation, ignoring the height term (as the aorta is horizontal).
so there is this horizontal section wich has a radius of 1.25cm with stationary speed right after radius gets bigger of 15% and so its wider
"Stationary speed"?
Okay...
Not sure why the radius is even needed here, to be honest.
Why?
or S
But why do you need it?
cuz since its a circumference
What's a circumference?
You need to speak precisely in math.
If we had the usual assumption of constant volumetric flow rate, then yes, we'd need it. But here we are given constant speed, and the speed is already given.
Hold on, let me check the statement. Maybe you mistranslated it.
I think you just misread it. We're given the speed in the healthy aorta.
yes
Oh, it just means that the speed is constant inside eash section...
Alright, fair enough.
there are 2 sections
Then yeah, we need two things - Bernoulli's equation and continuity equation.
@tough shadow Let me ask you this; why do you think the blood slows down in the wider vessel?
That's not a reason to believe anything in math or science.
Try recalling the continuity equation.
continuity is
Okay, think about this; what causes the blood to flow?
No, that's just one side of Bernoulli's equation.
o u mean
when there are 2 sections
its the same
a side 1/2 dv at second + dgh + p?= 1/2 dv at second + dgh + p? (b side)
Okay, this student clearly has no conceptual understanding, I think that's more important to establish than number crunching right now.
No, again, p + ρgh + ρv^2/2 = const is just Bernoulli's equation.
😭
The continuity equation is a statement about the volumetric flow rate in different sections.
I don't mean it as an insult. It's not your fault you don't know what you're talking about.
I think they just forgot the continuity equation. Or maybe the term in their language is very different.
the result will be the same
Result? What do you mean?
They said that the blood flows slower in the wider blood vessel "because my teacher said so".
1/2 dv at second + dgh + p?= cost
No, again, that's Bernoulli's equation. We already got it.
in any place of the section u can take the result is the same
but thats not it
SaVa=SbVb
i alr said that
before
i tought it was wrong
Yeah, nice! Though, better to denote speed by v, not V, otherwise you are confusing it with volume.
Ah, sorry, didn't notice.
Okay, look.
my teacher to get the S used 2pi x Radius
because its a circle
is it right or
am i remembering wrong
v
...what?
Velocity
...no.
No.
What physical mechanism causes blood to flow?
Why doesn't blood just sit still?
So, we have two relations.
Bernoulli's equation (with h = const): p1 + ρv1^2/2 = p2 + ρv2^2/2.
Continuity equation: S1 v1 = S2 v2.
And you need to find p1 - p2.
acceleration?
Ok, ping me when you're done with that, I guess...
When does a person's blood stop flowing?
And what causes that?
when the heart stops beating
...no.
Energy?
Stop guessing.
Especially stop guessing random physics terms.
We're talking about a heart and what it does.
heart makes blood flow
If we weren't talking about this problem, and I just walked up to you and asked "what does the heart do?" what would be your answer?
it pumps blood inside the body
mind blowing
damn
And because all of the blood gets its pressure from the heart, it all has the same pressure.
...hold on, I might be screwing up here.
The blood does all pump from the heart, so something is constant everywhere in the blood.
(Ignoring arteries, which also pump.)
Well, total pressure is a bit of an ambiguous term. Basically, the const in p + ρgh + ρv^2/2 = const is that constant total pressure.
I kinda forgot its physical significance, though...
One sec, let me look that up.
tomorrow i got exam im screwed
Okay, yes, pressure is constant. Which means that when surface area increases, force must also increase.
But work is also constant, and work is force times distance.
So when force increases, distance must decrease.
ye
m/s
Because distance decreases, because force increases, because surface area increases, because pressure and work are both constant.
ok
So in some amount of time t, some volume of fluid f passes through the cross section at some velocity v.
Ok, couldn't find a good source.
We can just think of it as some abstract conserved pressure - the sum of actual pressure (a work-related term, kind of), a potential energy-related term and a kinetic energy-related term. It is constant for any section in an ideal liquid flow.
Okay, wait, this is simpler than I thought.
Ah, I remember what that is now! That constant is total energy density. It has units J/m^3, so it just coincides with units of pressure.
That is, if we treat the constant term as E/V, then multiplying the whole equation by V gives pV + mgh + mv^2/2 = E, in which you can clearly see that the terms correspond to work, potential energy and kinetic energy.
(a bit better to take dE/dV, I guess, but I think you get what I'm saying)
The heart pumps by inflating with blood, then contracting, sending the blood out of it.
So in one time interval, which we can measure as one heart pump, it sends some volume f through the arteries.
And f is constant.
And f is Sv.
Or.
Yes.
Volume per unit time equals area times length per unit time.
@tough shadow This is the physical intuition we need.
i know this
Ah, nice!
but in italian
What I'm trying to get across, more than how to do this specific problem, is how to think about problems in general to solve them even if you haven't been explicitly taught the specific mathematical relationships that govern them.
this would be of great help
Because if you can do that, you can use the same technique to work out how to apply the equations you have been taught.
yea cuz
in the equation of bernoulli
its like the same
as another one i studied
but the only thing it differs is where its applied
the conservation of energy
or something
So flow is constant, which is cross-sectional area times velocity, hence when area increases, velocity decreases.
Now, pressure...
wait
i got in my notebook that
flow is
variation of v / variaton of t
not v times t
...what?
didnt u just say
What are v and t?
...so "flow" is an acceleration?
initial v - final v
...yes.
Velocity divided by time.
Velocity is length divided by time.
So velocity divided by time is length divided by time squared.
That's acceleration.
Are you sure this v isn't referring to volume?
...what?
Area is measured in meters? No.
Area is measured in meters squared.
If this v is referring to volume, we're actually saying exactly the same thing.
ig im reading it wrong
truee
Since the point is to understand the mathematical relationship between quantities, not to memorize an equation free of context.
Yep.
Oh, so "portata" is volumetric flow rate. Interesting.
Which is equal to velocity times cross-sectional area.
Hence the decrease in velocity coinciding with an increase in area.
So now pressure.
My personal intuition of pressure is based on gravitational pressure in a static fluid.
Let's see if I can adapt it here.
So the heart is providing constant volumetric flow...
So hypothetically, if some fluid ahead of it was static...
Then it would be experiencing a force?
Because the fluid behind it would be trying to move forward.
ye
because maybe
the section before is faster
and the 2 section might be slower and block the first section
I mean, that also means the same thing.
Well, it's not going to block it.
The heart fills with blood, then pumps.
So suppose we're in the instant just before the pump.
Suppose also that the blood was stationary before this.
Then the first pump will send a wave of pressure through the blood at the speed of sound-in-blood.
How does this pressure wave work...
Well, pressure is force over area.
So we need to find the force with which the heart is pumping.
And force equals mass times acceleration.
I think an energy approach might be more useful in deriving Bernoulli's equation.
No, wait, this feels like the wrong track.
(well, energy density, but doesn't really matter)
Okay, wait, this is simple, right? Pressure is force over area. If the force is constant, which it is, because the mass of the blood the heart pumps and the rate to which it accelerates it are constant, then as area increases, pressure decreases.
alr got it
Or wait, the heart is kind of providing continuous force, so should we think in terms of impulse?
Right.
because it has to cover more
space
but
if force gets higher
pressure goes up
because it has more force
Right.
and thats all
You can understand a lot of physical intuition just from how the various physical quantities are defined.
In this case, pressure as force over area.
That's kind of what I was talking about with dimensional analysis.
Well, in order to actually calculate the pressure of the fluid, we need to know the force of it.
Right.
oh ok
And that feels like it'll be a problem.
Because we have the density and the volume, so the mass is no problem, but what's the acceleration?
We only have velocity.
It would actually be delta-v, which we don't know, we're given velocity as constant.
nvm
why dont we
just do
dgh
= pressure
density x gravity x height
@frigid shoal
if we dont have height we just reverse formula it
no wait we cnat
cant
Because we're not thinking about "things to do", we're trying to understand what is happening.
Pressure is force over area.
Like your brain or your computer?
Ah.
Units?
Pressure is measured in pascals, which are N/m^2, which makes them...kg/ms^2.
That is, kilograms over meters times seconds squared.
Maybe you need a break?
Yes, but we've covered a lot. A short break will help you process what you've learned and give you more energy to continue.
What?
im going to have a break for 10 minutes
Are you telling me you're going to take a ten minute nap?
Alright.
to focus more
Probably better to write it as kg/(m*s^2), since ms looks more like millisecond that meter*second.
Yeah, I realized that, which is why I said it again in words.
Ah, yeah, right.
The answer to what?
.
Right, I don't know if that train of thought is fruitful.
I'm also thinking about the derivation, but one part of it I don't quite understand after some time, so for now I'm not going to write it.
shall we try do some excersises
but like easier
and gradually we increase difficulty
It's not about the difficulty of the problem.
its to grasp the logic
but if i cant train with concrete excerises and i only focus on theory idk if i will be able to do excerises
excersizes
The questions are just special cases of the theory.
Understanding the theory is the key to everything.
If you only learn how to do exercises, you'll struggle when you come across an exercise of a type that wasn't covered.
lets do theory
Okay, so force definitely is constant.
ok
Because the heart accelerates one pump's worth of blood from 0 to v in one pump's worth of time.
ok
And constant force, plus increased surface area, equals decreased pressure.
yes
so acceleration is proportional to pressure
Which is what's confusing me here, because the fluid in the wider section is flowing slower.
fluid in wider section goes slower because if the area is bigger the pressure is smaller
No, it's because flow is constant.
Think about it like this; flow has to be constant.
Why?
Because imagine if it wasn't.
i get it why it has to be costant
"flow = area * velocity". We've talked about using single letters in notes and the problems that causes you.
Yes, but that didn't help you the other time.
What's most important is that you know what you mean.
ok
Which is why I recommend using whole words.
Because this isn't some abstract equation, it's a mathematical relationship between physical quantities.
Okay, sorry.
cuz im really tired
dw
So the fluid in the wider pipe goes slower.
That means that it must be decelerated.
It must experience negative net force.
yes
Which means that the pressure in front must exceed the pressure behind!
so this means that behind the first fluid there is a pressure wich is smaller than his
It means that the pressure in the small pipe is smaller than the pressure in the big pipe.
ok
And force equals mass times acceleration, and we can calculate the mass of any given volume of the fluid.
Because we have the density.
No, we're given density.
or is it 1000 for every fluid
Read back the problem.
So we know the mass of a given volume of fluid.
yes
And we can calculate the change in velocity because we can calculate the volumetric flow and the areas of the two pipes.
with SaVa=SbVb?
Right.
Which ones?
...yes, we can calculate that. We're given the radii.
No.
then how
Remember, we want an area.
An area is a length, squared.
So the formula for an area must have a length times a length.
radius x radius?
Right, but not just that...
A = pi r^2?
yes
That's correct.
Nice!
2 pi r is the circumference.
circle is pi r 2?
The area of a circle is pi r^2. The circumference of a circle - its perimieter - is 2 pi r.
alr
im gonna tell u all the formulas i have
in my notebook
tell me if i miss any
SaVa=SbVb Continuity equation
** Bernoulli** when there is 1 section / 1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P= cost / the other way when there are 2 sections/ (a) 1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P=1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P (b)
Pressure=Force/A
Pressure=dgh
Flow Rate= Delta-Volume/Delta-Time
Flow rate= Area times velocity
Velocity=square root of 2gh
Okay, that second one, we didn't go over, and it feels like you're doing exactly what you shouldn't, which is just invoking an equation without understanding it.
nono i understand that
Then explain it.
No, start with the one-section case.
when we have 1 section
we got this equation wich explains us that the sum of 1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P is equal to a costant wich is similiar to every place we pick inside the section
Why?
No it's not.
i give up
i was thinking
that even if velocity isnt costant
then the height is going to change
What height?
of the section
And why does that matter?
so the sum is always the same
But why should the sum always be the same?
because the pressure covers the entire area
...what?
idk 😭
It's always important to be able to say you don't know.
the sum is always the same cuz bernoulli told me 
Okay, so.
We have the density of the fluid.
We have the velocity through the one part.
We have the radius of the one part.
We have the radius of the other part.
This velocity and these radii enable us to calculate the areas and therefore the velocity through the other part.
So perhaps do that first.
then we get the pressure
...what?
mb we dont have force
Right, and that's the point of getting the second velocity.
Wait, dammit, acceleration is change in velocity over time.
I don't want to be mean, but maybe you should've started studying earlier.
i tried but my teacher doesent talk much bout theory
she just tells us what problems we are going to get in the exam
and to learn them
Yeah, your teacher doesn't... teach you.
I don't know because I don't know how height actually relates to the problem.
arent we using bernoulli
Okay, but remember.
It's not an arbitrary equation.
It's a description of a mathematical relationship between physical quantities.
I don't know what causes height to appear as a term.
What physical phenomenon its presence in the equation is meant to account for.
?
can u rephrase
u mean
what happens in the problem?
there are 2 sections and in one of them there is a bigger radius than the other
We're talking about physical fluid flowing through a physical pipe.
So how does height physically affect the pressure?
higher the height lower the pressure?
@frigid shoali give up
can u just tell me how to get the force
i will study tomorrow i got 3 hours before exam
Unfortunately I think it actually involves calculus.
CALCULUS?
whats that
i didnt arrive there yet
BRO
I CANT
I STRUGGLED SO FUCKING MUCH
AND THE ANSWER WAS
v
welp
thx for ur time
i really appreciated it
@frigid shoal
Sorry I couldn't help more.
we basically
finished it
we didnt need to find out about the single Pressure value
the problem never asked it
:/
Oh, you can't find p1 and p2 separately here.
Only the difference.
I'm a part-time calculus teacher.
@frigid shoal
Can you help me with some excersizes
it says pressure is a number in the first section is 8,0 x 10^4 and that in the second section the diameter is halfed
and in the problem it does Sa=Sb/4
why /4?
Nice!
you guys saved me
now i need help on
the equation of a circumference
but i alr
studied a bit
way more than yesterday with physics
when i get home
Well, if it's a question on a different topic, it's better to make another help post.