#aaa

628 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

tough shadow
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a

languid elbowBOT
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tough shadow
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ill post here the physics problem i cant do

burnt bison
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Well, alright. This works, I guess.

tough shadow
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thx in anticipation btw

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when i do an excersize and there is only 1 tube

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and so

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i put the equation = cost

frigid shoal
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Okay, you shouldn't type the problem.

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You should just give us a picture of it.

tough shadow
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its in italian

burnt bison
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Yeah, that'd be better.

tough shadow
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its better if i translate it

frigid shoal
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Because if you don't understand it, there's a risk you'll miss an important detail in your explanation.

tough shadow
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true

burnt bison
# tough shadow its in italian

Oh... Well, that's fine, I know some services that can translate text on a picture. I can at least get a rough understanding.

tough shadow
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but this was just general knowledge

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welp let me find a problem

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A horizontal section of the aorta, with a radius of 1.25 cm, is crossed by blood with the same speed at all points, 0.41 m/s. In a consecutive horizontal section there is an aneurysm whose radius is 15% greater than that of the aorta. The density of the blood is
1060 kg/m 3

Calculate the difference in pressure between the blood passing through the aneurysm and the healthy part of the aorta.

Neglect the viscosity of the blood.

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ok so i got an idea

frigid shoal
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Okay, picture.

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We said picture.

tough shadow
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ex n 50

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so since its giving me radius instead of S

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im thinking since its a circular thing

frigid shoal
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Hold on, the aneurysm has a radius greater than the aorta?

tough shadow
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i do the 2pi x R

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aneurysm makes it bigger

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yes

frigid shoal
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...am I thinking of an embolism?

tough shadow
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so its slower

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ye

frigid shoal
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Okay, yeah, I was thinking of a clot.

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Which is an embolism.

tough shadow
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basically it gets slower since more radius

frigid shoal
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Right, okay.

tough shadow
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?

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to get area

frigid shoal
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No.

tough shadow
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fuck

frigid shoal
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You can see that with basic dimensional analysis.

tough shadow
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what

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the area?

frigid shoal
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...no, that it's not an area.

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Do you know what dimensional analysis is?

tough shadow
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probably yes but i dont recall that word in english

frigid shoal
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Okay, so area is in two dimensions, right?

tough shadow
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WAIT

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I GOT

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IT

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I CALCULATE PRESSIOn

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DGH

frigid shoal
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...what?

tough shadow
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then i do +15%

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wait trust

frigid shoal
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Okay, no.

tough shadow
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since its asking

frigid shoal
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Stop thinking about it in terms of "things you do".

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Try to understand the situation the problem is describing.

tough shadow
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so

burnt bison
tough shadow
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so there is this horizontal section wich has a radius of 1.25cm with stationary speed right after radius gets bigger of 15% and so its wider

frigid shoal
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"Stationary speed"?

tough shadow
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uh

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constant speed

frigid shoal
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Okay...

burnt bison
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Not sure why the radius is even needed here, to be honest.

tough shadow
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so u can calculate

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area

frigid shoal
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Why?

tough shadow
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or S

burnt bison
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But why do you need it?

tough shadow
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cuz since its a circumference

frigid shoal
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What's a circumference?

tough shadow
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Maybe for

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SaVa=SbVb

frigid shoal
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You need to speak precisely in math.

burnt bison
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If we had the usual assumption of constant volumetric flow rate, then yes, we'd need it. But here we are given constant speed, and the speed is already given.

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Hold on, let me check the statement. Maybe you mistranslated it.

frigid shoal
tough shadow
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yes

burnt bison
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Alright, fair enough.

tough shadow
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there are 2 sections

burnt bison
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Then yeah, we need two things - Bernoulli's equation and continuity equation.

frigid shoal
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@tough shadow Let me ask you this; why do you think the blood slows down in the wider vessel?

tough shadow
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my teacher said so

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💀

frigid shoal
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That's not a reason to believe anything in math or science.

burnt bison
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Try recalling the continuity equation.

tough shadow
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continuity is

frigid shoal
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Okay, think about this; what causes the blood to flow?

tough shadow
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1/2 dv at second + dgh + p?

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v 2

burnt bison
tough shadow
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o u mean

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when there are 2 sections

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its the same

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a side 1/2 dv at second + dgh + p?= 1/2 dv at second + dgh + p? (b side)

frigid shoal
tough shadow
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since h is costant

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we can simplify

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it

burnt bison
burnt bison
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The continuity equation is a statement about the volumetric flow rate in different sections.

tough shadow
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maybe i gotta do a step back

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oh yes

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its

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like in any position

frigid shoal
# tough shadow 😭

I don't mean it as an insult. It's not your fault you don't know what you're talking about.

burnt bison
tough shadow
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the result will be the same

burnt bison
frigid shoal
tough shadow
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1/2 dv at second + dgh + p?= cost

burnt bison
tough shadow
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but thats not it

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SaVa=SbVb

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i alr said that

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before

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i tought it was wrong

burnt bison
# tough shadow SaVa=SbVb

Yeah, nice! Though, better to denote speed by v, not V, otherwise you are confusing it with volume.

burnt bison
frigid shoal
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Okay, look.

tough shadow
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my teacher to get the S used 2pi x Radius

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because its a circle

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is it right or

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am i remembering wrong

frigid shoal
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Okay, look.

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Let's take it one step at a time.

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What causes blood to flow?

tough shadow
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v

frigid shoal
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...what?

tough shadow
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Velocity

frigid shoal
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...no.

tough shadow
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ooo

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P

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portata

frigid shoal
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No.

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What physical mechanism causes blood to flow?

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Why doesn't blood just sit still?

tough shadow
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low

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flow

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=portata

burnt bison
# tough shadow i tought it was wrong

So, we have two relations.
Bernoulli's equation (with h = const): p1 + ρv1^2/2 = p2 + ρv2^2/2.
Continuity equation: S1 v1 = S2 v2.
And you need to find p1 - p2.

frigid shoal
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No.

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What makes the blood flow?

tough shadow
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acceleration?

burnt bison
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Ok, ping me when you're done with that, I guess...

frigid shoal
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When does a person's blood stop flowing?

tough shadow
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😭

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when he is dead

frigid shoal
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And what causes that?

tough shadow
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when the heart stops beating

frigid shoal
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Right.

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The heart is what causes blood to flow.

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And how does it do that?

tough shadow
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u mean

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F

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force

frigid shoal
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...no.

tough shadow
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Energy?

frigid shoal
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Stop guessing.

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Especially stop guessing random physics terms.

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We're talking about a heart and what it does.

tough shadow
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heart makes blood flow

frigid shoal
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If we weren't talking about this problem, and I just walked up to you and asked "what does the heart do?" what would be your answer?

tough shadow
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it pumps blood inside the body

frigid shoal
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Yes, pumps.

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And the way a pump works is by increasing pressure.

tough shadow
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mind blowing

frigid shoal
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And pressure is force over area.

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p = F/S.

tough shadow
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damn

frigid shoal
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And because all of the blood gets its pressure from the heart, it all has the same pressure.

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...hold on, I might be screwing up here.

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The blood does all pump from the heart, so something is constant everywhere in the blood.

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(Ignoring arteries, which also pump.)

burnt bison
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I kinda forgot its physical significance, though...

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One sec, let me look that up.

tough shadow
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tomorrow i got exam im screwed

frigid shoal
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Okay, yes, pressure is constant. Which means that when surface area increases, force must also increase.

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But work is also constant, and work is force times distance.

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So when force increases, distance must decrease.

tough shadow
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ye

frigid shoal
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And speed is distance over time.

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So that's why the speed decreases.

tough shadow
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m/s

frigid shoal
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Because distance decreases, because force increases, because surface area increases, because pressure and work are both constant.

tough shadow
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ok

frigid shoal
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So in some amount of time t, some volume of fluid f passes through the cross section at some velocity v.

tough shadow
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and this is FLOW

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ez

burnt bison
frigid shoal
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Okay, wait, this is simpler than I thought.

burnt bison
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Ah, I remember what that is now! That constant is total energy density. It has units J/m^3, so it just coincides with units of pressure.
That is, if we treat the constant term as E/V, then multiplying the whole equation by V gives pV + mgh + mv^2/2 = E, in which you can clearly see that the terms correspond to work, potential energy and kinetic energy.
(a bit better to take dE/dV, I guess, but I think you get what I'm saying)

frigid shoal
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The heart pumps by inflating with blood, then contracting, sending the blood out of it.

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So in one time interval, which we can measure as one heart pump, it sends some volume f through the arteries.

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And f is constant.

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And f is Sv.

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Or.

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Yes.

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Volume per unit time equals area times length per unit time.

frigid shoal
burnt bison
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Ah, nice!

tough shadow
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but in italian

frigid shoal
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What I'm trying to get across, more than how to do this specific problem, is how to think about problems in general to solve them even if you haven't been explicitly taught the specific mathematical relationships that govern them.

tough shadow
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this would be of great help

frigid shoal
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Because if you can do that, you can use the same technique to work out how to apply the equations you have been taught.

tough shadow
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yea cuz

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in the equation of bernoulli

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its like the same

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as another one i studied

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but the only thing it differs is where its applied

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the conservation of energy

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or something

frigid shoal
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So flow is constant, which is cross-sectional area times velocity, hence when area increases, velocity decreases.

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Now, pressure...

tough shadow
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wait

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i got in my notebook that

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flow is

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variation of v / variaton of t

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not v times t

frigid shoal
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...what?

frigid shoal
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What are v and t?

tough shadow
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Velocity and time

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vi - vf = variation of v

frigid shoal
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...so "flow" is an acceleration?

tough shadow
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initial v - final v

tough shadow
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divided

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not multiplied

frigid shoal
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...yes.

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Velocity divided by time.

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Velocity is length divided by time.

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So velocity divided by time is length divided by time squared.

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That's acceleration.

tough shadow
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yes

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O

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I GOT IT

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so if area increases

frigid shoal
tough shadow
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nono wait hear me out

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area is m right

frigid shoal
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...what?

tough shadow
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V is = to m/s

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velocity

frigid shoal
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Area is measured in meters? No.

tough shadow
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space / time

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ok idk

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cant guess

frigid shoal
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Area is measured in meters squared.

tough shadow
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so

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ah

frigid shoal
tough shadow
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ig im reading it wrong

frigid shoal
#

You should really use whole words in your notes.

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Even multiple whole words.

tough shadow
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truee

frigid shoal
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Since the point is to understand the mathematical relationship between quantities, not to memorize an equation free of context.

tough shadow
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😭

frigid shoal
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Yep.

burnt bison
tough shadow
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yes

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so i can say

frigid shoal
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Which is equal to velocity times cross-sectional area.

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Hence the decrease in velocity coinciding with an increase in area.

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So now pressure.

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My personal intuition of pressure is based on gravitational pressure in a static fluid.

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Let's see if I can adapt it here.

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So the heart is providing constant volumetric flow...

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So hypothetically, if some fluid ahead of it was static...

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Then it would be experiencing a force?

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Because the fluid behind it would be trying to move forward.

tough shadow
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ye

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because maybe

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the section before is faster

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and the 2 section might be slower and block the first section

frigid shoal
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...not "maybe".

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I said "if some fluid was static".

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Still.

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Not moving.

tough shadow
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ooo

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i read wrong

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i tought i read stationary

frigid shoal
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I mean, that also means the same thing.

tough shadow
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yes then its going to block it

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isnt stationary a constant movement?

frigid shoal
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Well, it's not going to block it.

frigid shoal
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Like, okay.

tough shadow
frigid shoal
#

The heart fills with blood, then pumps.

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So suppose we're in the instant just before the pump.

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Suppose also that the blood was stationary before this.

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Then the first pump will send a wave of pressure through the blood at the speed of sound-in-blood.

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How does this pressure wave work...

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Well, pressure is force over area.

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So we need to find the force with which the heart is pumping.

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And force equals mass times acceleration.

burnt bison
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I think an energy approach might be more useful in deriving Bernoulli's equation.

frigid shoal
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No, wait, this feels like the wrong track.

burnt bison
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(well, energy density, but doesn't really matter)

frigid shoal
#

Okay, wait, this is simple, right? Pressure is force over area. If the force is constant, which it is, because the mass of the blood the heart pumps and the rate to which it accelerates it are constant, then as area increases, pressure decreases.

tough shadow
#

alr got it

frigid shoal
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Or wait, the heart is kind of providing continuous force, so should we think in terms of impulse?

tough shadow
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so

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if there is a bigger area

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pressure goes down

frigid shoal
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Right.

tough shadow
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because it has to cover more

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space

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but

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if force gets higher

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pressure goes up

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because it has more force

frigid shoal
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Right.

tough shadow
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and thats all

frigid shoal
#

You can understand a lot of physical intuition just from how the various physical quantities are defined.

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In this case, pressure as force over area.

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That's kind of what I was talking about with dimensional analysis.

tough shadow
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ok

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now+

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is there any more things i need to know or can i proceed with problems

frigid shoal
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Well, in order to actually calculate the pressure of the fluid, we need to know the force of it.

tough shadow
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force is mass x acceleration right

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no wait

frigid shoal
#

Right.

tough shadow
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oh ok

frigid shoal
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And that feels like it'll be a problem.

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Because we have the density and the volume, so the mass is no problem, but what's the acceleration?

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We only have velocity.

tough shadow
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we can do reverse formula

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v=at

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oh

frigid shoal
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It would actually be delta-v, which we don't know, we're given velocity as constant.

tough shadow
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nvm

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why dont we

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just do

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dgh

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= pressure

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density x gravity x height

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@frigid shoal

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if we dont have height we just reverse formula it

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no wait we cnat

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cant

frigid shoal
# tough shadow just do

Because we're not thinking about "things to do", we're trying to understand what is happening.

tough shadow
#

whats

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pressure

frigid shoal
#

Pressure is force over area.

tough shadow
#

too much lag

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measures

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im lagging

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like a lot+

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ok

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im back

frigid shoal
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Like your brain or your computer?

tough shadow
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so

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my wifi

frigid shoal
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Ah.

tough shadow
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i wanted to know

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the measures

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like v = m/s

frigid shoal
#

Units?

tough shadow
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yes

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i remember

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Pa

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was similiar to

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nvm

frigid shoal
#

Pressure is measured in pascals, which are N/m^2, which makes them...kg/ms^2.

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That is, kilograms over meters times seconds squared.

tough shadow
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idk

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im stressing too much over it

frigid shoal
#

Maybe you need a break?

tough shadow
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no

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cuz

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exam tomorrow

frigid shoal
#

Yes, but we've covered a lot. A short break will help you process what you've learned and give you more energy to continue.

tough shadow
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i come back in 10 minutes

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i go to bed

frigid shoal
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What?

tough shadow
#

im going to have a break for 10 minutes

frigid shoal
#

Are you telling me you're going to take a ten minute nap?

tough shadow
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no its a memory tecnique

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technique

frigid shoal
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Alright.

tough shadow
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to focus more

burnt bison
frigid shoal
burnt bison
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Ah, yeah, right.

tough shadow
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hello chat

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techie can u give me the answer

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now

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@frigid shoal

frigid shoal
frigid shoal
#

Right, I don't know if that train of thought is fruitful.

burnt bison
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I'm also thinking about the derivation, but one part of it I don't quite understand after some time, so for now I'm not going to write it.

tough shadow
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shall we try do some excersises

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but like easier

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and gradually we increase difficulty

frigid shoal
#

It's not about the difficulty of the problem.

tough shadow
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its to grasp the logic

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but if i cant train with concrete excerises and i only focus on theory idk if i will be able to do excerises

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excersizes

frigid shoal
#

The questions are just special cases of the theory.

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Understanding the theory is the key to everything.

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If you only learn how to do exercises, you'll struggle when you come across an exercise of a type that wasn't covered.

tough shadow
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lets do theory

frigid shoal
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Okay, so force definitely is constant.

tough shadow
#

ok

frigid shoal
#

Because the heart accelerates one pump's worth of blood from 0 to v in one pump's worth of time.

tough shadow
#

ok

frigid shoal
#

And constant force, plus increased surface area, equals decreased pressure.

tough shadow
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yes

frigid shoal
#

Except...

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A faster fluid exerts a greater pressure.

tough shadow
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so acceleration is proportional to pressure

frigid shoal
#

Wait no.

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Faster fluid exerts lower pressure.

tough shadow
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proportional inversed

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then

frigid shoal
#

Which is what's confusing me here, because the fluid in the wider section is flowing slower.

tough shadow
#

fluid in wider section goes slower because if the area is bigger the pressure is smaller

frigid shoal
#

No, it's because flow is constant.

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Think about it like this; flow has to be constant.

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Why?

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Because imagine if it wasn't.

tough shadow
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i get it why it has to be costant

frigid shoal
#

Right.

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And flow is cross-sectional area times velocity.

tough shadow
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how do i write that

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in the formula

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q=A*v

#

?

frigid shoal
#

"flow = area * velocity". We've talked about using single letters in notes and the problems that causes you.

tough shadow
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yes

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thats why i used small v instead of big V

frigid shoal
#

Yes, but that didn't help you the other time.

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What's most important is that you know what you mean.

tough shadow
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ok

frigid shoal
#

Which is why I recommend using whole words.

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Because this isn't some abstract equation, it's a mathematical relationship between physical quantities.

tough shadow
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ok

#

@frigid shoal

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i got only 30 minutes

frigid shoal
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Okay, sorry.

tough shadow
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cuz im really tired

tough shadow
frigid shoal
#

So the fluid in the wider pipe goes slower.

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That means that it must be decelerated.

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It must experience negative net force.

tough shadow
#

yes

frigid shoal
#

Which means that the pressure in front must exceed the pressure behind!

tough shadow
#

so this means that behind the first fluid there is a pressure wich is smaller than his

frigid shoal
#

It means that the pressure in the small pipe is smaller than the pressure in the big pipe.

tough shadow
#

ok

frigid shoal
#

And force equals mass times acceleration, and we can calculate the mass of any given volume of the fluid.

tough shadow
#

because

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wait

frigid shoal
#

Because we have the density.

tough shadow
#

if its blood

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its not water

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so we dont know density

frigid shoal
#

No, we're given density.

tough shadow
#

or is it 1000 for every fluid

frigid shoal
#

Read back the problem.

tough shadow
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oh true

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we got volume and density

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wich we get mass from

frigid shoal
#

So we know the mass of a given volume of fluid.

tough shadow
#

yes

frigid shoal
#

And we can calculate the change in velocity because we can calculate the volumetric flow and the areas of the two pipes.

tough shadow
#

with SaVa=SbVb?

frigid shoal
tough shadow
#

but

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there are 2 x

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2 unknown values

frigid shoal
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Which ones?

tough shadow
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Area

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S

frigid shoal
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...yes, we can calculate that. We're given the radii.

tough shadow
#

how

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dont tell me

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2 pi x radius actually works

frigid shoal
#

No.

tough shadow
#

then how

frigid shoal
#

Remember, we want an area.

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An area is a length, squared.

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So the formula for an area must have a length times a length.

tough shadow
#

radius x radius?

frigid shoal
#

Right, but not just that...

tough shadow
#

pi

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x

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radius at second?

frigid shoal
#

A = pi r^2?

tough shadow
#

yes

frigid shoal
#

That's correct.

tough shadow
#

Nice!

frigid shoal
#

2 pi r is the circumference.

tough shadow
#

circle is pi r 2?

frigid shoal
#

The area of a circle is pi r^2. The circumference of a circle - its perimieter - is 2 pi r.

tough shadow
#

alr

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im gonna tell u all the formulas i have

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in my notebook

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tell me if i miss any

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SaVa=SbVb Continuity equation
** Bernoulli** when there is 1 section / 1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P= cost / the other way when there are 2 sections/ (a) 1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P=1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P (b)
Pressure=Force/A
Pressure=dgh
Flow Rate= Delta-Volume/Delta-Time
Flow rate= Area times velocity
Velocity=square root of 2gh

frigid shoal
tough shadow
#

nono i understand that

frigid shoal
#

Then explain it.

tough shadow
#

basically when we have 2 sections

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instead of 1

frigid shoal
#

No, start with the one-section case.

tough shadow
#

when we have 1 section

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we got this equation wich explains us that the sum of 1/2 dv at second+ dgh + P is equal to a costant wich is similiar to every place we pick inside the section

frigid shoal
#

Why?

tough shadow
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i can tell u with logic

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velocity is costant

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idk

frigid shoal
#

No it's not.

tough shadow
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i give up

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i was thinking

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that even if velocity isnt costant

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then the height is going to change

frigid shoal
#

What height?

tough shadow
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of the section

frigid shoal
#

And why does that matter?

tough shadow
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so the sum is always the same

frigid shoal
#

But why should the sum always be the same?

tough shadow
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because the pressure covers the entire area

frigid shoal
#

...what?

tough shadow
#

idk 😭

frigid shoal
#

It's always important to be able to say you don't know.

tough shadow
#

the sum is always the same cuz bernoulli told me joeok_cool

frigid shoal
#

Okay, so.

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We have the density of the fluid.

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We have the velocity through the one part.

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We have the radius of the one part.

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We have the radius of the other part.

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This velocity and these radii enable us to calculate the areas and therefore the velocity through the other part.

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So perhaps do that first.

tough shadow
#

then we get the pressure

frigid shoal
#

...what?

tough shadow
#

mb we dont have force

frigid shoal
#

Right, and that's the point of getting the second velocity.

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Wait, dammit, acceleration is change in velocity over time.

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I don't want to be mean, but maybe you should've started studying earlier.

tough shadow
#

i tried but my teacher doesent talk much bout theory

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she just tells us what problems we are going to get in the exam

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and to learn them

frigid shoal
#

Yeah, your teacher doesn't... teach you.

tough shadow
#

1 thing

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in this problem

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cant we simplify height

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and remove it

frigid shoal
#

I don't know because I don't know how height actually relates to the problem.

tough shadow
#

arent we using bernoulli

frigid shoal
#

Okay, but remember.

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It's not an arbitrary equation.

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It's a description of a mathematical relationship between physical quantities.

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I don't know what causes height to appear as a term.

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What physical phenomenon its presence in the equation is meant to account for.

tough shadow
#

?

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can u rephrase

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u mean

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what happens in the problem?

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there are 2 sections and in one of them there is a bigger radius than the other

frigid shoal
#

We're talking about physical fluid flowing through a physical pipe.

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So how does height physically affect the pressure?

tough shadow
#

higher the height lower the pressure?

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@frigid shoali give up

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can u just tell me how to get the force

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i will study tomorrow i got 3 hours before exam

frigid shoal
#

Unfortunately I think it actually involves calculus.

tough shadow
#

CALCULUS?

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whats that

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i didnt arrive there yet

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BRO

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I CANT

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I STRUGGLED SO FUCKING MUCH

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AND THE ANSWER WAS

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v

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welp

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thx for ur time

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i really appreciated it

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@frigid shoal

frigid shoal
#

Sorry I couldn't help more.

tough shadow
#

we basically

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finished it

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we didnt need to find out about the single Pressure value

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the problem never asked it

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:/

burnt bison
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Only the difference.

tough shadow
#

yes

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btw

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are yall teachers?

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or aspriring to teach

burnt bison
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I'm a part-time calculus teacher.

tough shadow
#

@frigid shoal

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Can you help me with some excersizes

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it says pressure is a number in the first section is 8,0 x 10^4 and that in the second section the diameter is halfed

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and in the problem it does Sa=Sb/4

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why /4?

tough shadow
#

ez

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i did 4/5 excersizes

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on the exam

burnt bison
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Nice!

tough shadow
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you guys saved me

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now i need help on

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the equation of a circumference

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but i alr

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studied a bit

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way more than yesterday with physics

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when i get home

burnt bison
#

Well, if it's a question on a different topic, it's better to make another help post.

tough shadow
#

alr

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u can close this one