Momentum (movement and combat)

[void topaz]

The biggest problem that I've had with Illyia so far is momentum. The game is not easy, and that is quite all right. However, I've found it exceptionally difficult to get into a rhythm or a groove playing it, much to my chagrin. Here's a few reasons I think why that is.

Momentum (but like the movement kind)
Illyia's movement feels like it's almost great. The triple jump feels great, sliding is a ton of fun, and if you can combine those with pogos you feel like a parkour master. However.
If you're on the ground and moving around, swinging stops you in place, killing your momentum. If you miss your timing on a triple jump, Illyia rolls and you lose your momentum. Illyia feels like she can bounce around like a rubber ball, but if you mess up slightly, she goes from rubber to a brick, and that never feels good. But the movement leads into the combat, and there you have two types of momentum to deal with.

Combat Momentum (and getting Spelunkied)
I love Spelunky. Absolute bastard of a game, but feels great to get a good run in. Part of the reason it's a bastard is because of the Series of Unfortunate Events that occurs when you get hit. You're often knocked back and stunned until you've touched the ground for long enough, but you aren't invincible during this duration, have zero control, and if something else hits you, you get sent for another ride. Combined with the gratuitous amount of cliffs and low amount of hits you can take, this means getting touched once can at any point be a cutscene leading to your death. I gotta explain how this is relevant.

Illyia stops moving if she swings on the ground. Alongside the movement momentum, this kind of means that if you're not doing roll/counterattack on the ground, you're locking yourself in place to get hit, since sword attacks don't seem to stun or knock back enemies (except on energy strike or the last hit of a combo). This means it's generally easier and/or safer to be pogoing from above, in the air, where some enemies can't do anything about it. And that feels right, with how good the movement can be. It feels right to be in the air. But, if you get hit out of the air, or you just happen to be near a ledge, you can get Spelunkied- you're sent flying, and whether you hit the second wind tech or not, you are out of the fight for a bit.

Momentum is poorly defined in fighting games (google doesn't help), but there's a phenomenon where the person winning, or hitting the other person, is more likely to continue winning. The person controlling the pace of the combat is controlling the momentum, and in addition, there's some amount of mental game that goes into that- getting hit sucks, and hitting the other person feels good. Getting into your rhythm, your flow, and denying your opponent theirs, means you're gonna do much better.

This also applies to games like Hollow Knight or Illyia. Getting hit in Hollow Knight, you get knocked back a tiny bit and have to readjust for a moment. It's a minor setback, but if you're in the groove, you can stay in the groove- a hit isn't a big deal, you can keep your momentum unless you hit spikes. But given how far Illyia gets flung, and the fact that you have to pause and focus on hitting your second wind (or risk getting hit by contact damage or another enemy), you have to stop fighting to re-center yourself. Your momentum is dead on impact.

That sucks. The combat is otherwise fun, and so it sucks to be taken out of it when you make a mistake.

So how can we fix it?
The major issues, to me, are:
-Getting hit takes you out of the fight, especially in midair
-Midair combat has better movement and lets you dodge better
-Grounded attacks stop movement and force you to roll instead of not being where the attack is
-Stopping your movement and/or control hurts your momentum

Grounded combat could let you keep moving, and that would help (rather than having to dodge constantly). Aerial combat could let you dodge, to help avoid getting hit, although that feels less necessary that being able to move while swinging on the ground.

Invulnerability could start from the moment you get hit, rather than getting up / teching, and last until a certain period after getting up. Doesn't really stop the problem from happening, but it does mean you can pause for a moment and refocus, which helps.

Illyia could take less knockback from attacks. Gets you to the ground faster and you're less likely to fall off a ledge and be stunned for ages.

The timing could be loosened up a little on consecutive jumps (or you could be allowed to jump out of a roll but not get the boost)- touching the ground often feels like a punishment with rolls.

This is both a movement and a combat thread- I think loosening up the movement will make the combat feel much better, and the two are tied together. Jump during roll and move while swinging would both be great. The ground's the main problem, even if getting hit out of the air sucks- at least being in the air in the first place feels great.

Hopefully this was helpful- trying to be constructive with the feedback while also clearly explaining what I think the problem was.

[carmine trout]

My only thing, is I think Illyia should take varying levels of knockback from different enemies, I.E. a small hit sends you back a little bit while a heavier hit from a boss or a late-game enemy could send you flying. The advantage to this is a player might want to regroup after taking a big hit and a lot of knockback will give them the space to take a breath, whereas a small hit isn't that bad.

[upbeat radish]

Another thing I had trouble with is Illyia moving while you’re doing a combo and then taking contact damage. I really like these points here though!

[neon spruce]

Thanks for the feedback! There's some actionable things in here that I also had in mind (and just haven't gotten the chance to do) - e.g small knockback for contact damage + jumping out of dodge roll)

[upbeat radish]

Thanks for being so responsive and listening to all the feedback!

[void topaz]

I also want to advocate for jumping out of landing-on-the-ground roll animation, 'cause I got that a few times after pogoing and typically got hit for it haha

[neon spruce]

That animation should be instantly cancelable already Illyia's never been locked into it

[void topaz]

???

hang on lemme go fire up the demo

[neon spruce]

if she is, that is probably a bug

[void topaz]

ah I am incorrect and I see why

when I was practicing the triple jump timing, I was probably hitting it early and being like "ah it's not letting me jump I must be locked here"

my bad