#Bottle in the genie

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

ember wren
#

Be honest, what do you think? Just played and won with two of these. It's awesome to me but my friends think it's OP

20251110_210737.jpg
#

Level 1, 0P

knotty sail
#

Too strong. Good effect, though.

ember wren
#

Playtesting a ton of cards this week and out of all of them this feels the most like it could cause a lot of commotion

ember wren
#

But I wanna see what people think. Not that that will keep it or kill it. But because I want to know what ppl think

steel elm
#

How much does composting it matter if it ends the game?

knotty sail
#

Yeah but its a really quick win condition.

vernal kraken
#

I think it needs some sort of consequence

ember wren
#

When I played and won with it I was doing a lot of crazy stuff with other new cards and it felt so good to win with. But yea

vernal kraken
#

When i first read it i thought it meant it took away one of your stacks so you’d be stuck with 2 the rest of the game, maybe that could be interesting?

steel elm
#

It should be harder to get off up front I think. Maybe it requires other colored beans or has some other hard to get up front cost.

vernal kraken
#

Like the stack just became stuck

ember wren
#

I would consider changing it to two life instead of three

ember wren
knotty sail
#

I think thats a good start, but yeah we could explore additional concepts.

remote surge
#

so you can't just play 2 of them and use them after they're done in stage fright

steel elm
#

Yes

remote surge
#

building a full stack and then doing 3 direct life points isn't really that op because you need the full stack, it's just doing Lv 3 direct damage anyways

#

it's an attack you can't guard

#

and your opponent can build against it pretty easily

#

having it be 2 life might be a good nerf if you have a level 3 attack on the stack that you can already use to do damage, but if you're at a point in the game where it's your winning play, it's a fantastic ace up the sleave

knotty sail
#

Im thinking about it compared to Praying Man

remote surge
#

what's that card do again

knotty sail
#

Flip coins, 4 outcomes, 3 direct damage, 1 direct damage, draw a card, discard a card

remote surge
#

doing 2 direct damage and then killing the stack is a good balance of that

#

it's a game ender

knotty sail
#

It doesnt explode but 3 direct damage is a 1/4 chance for a level 3.

Anyway! Numbers are easy to balance, the premise I think is what we like feedback on. Or what worm did by giving some alternate mechanic ideas, also very helpful

remote surge
#

TBH i'd use it as a game ender

#

so any negative outcome doesn't matter

#

if the enemy has 2 life remaining and you have that card out, i'd use it to win

#

hoping they didn't have a helper card

knotty sail
#

Thats how Id use it too. Its currently sort of tough to get rid of lvl 1 cards, so maybe introduce a bottom up beanstrike as well

remote surge
#

but also it's 0p meaning that if it's your only level 1 card you're going to get hit

#

so it's a slow setup

#

it seems op righ tnow

#

but it might actually be dog shit

#

or not as good as you think

knotty sail
#

Yeah it cant block but you throw a lvl 2 on it and now its just a level 2 that can blow up when it hits lvl 3

remote surge
#

i'd have to play with it

#

true but then you also have momentum on the other side

knotty sail
#

Yeah for sure. I like the premise of an exploding stack. Numbers are easy to tweak and additional conditions to balance are easy to add

remote surge
#

what's 2 direct damage if you already took 2 direct damage setting it up

#

you know what i mean

#

⚖️

#

it's hard to tell how balanced it is

steel elm
remote surge
#

it's too risky of a setup for a turn or two, or more

#

that to me is already a good downside

steel elm
#

The problem is there's essentially no risk of they're at 3 or less HP.

knotty sail
#

Unless you have 2 other lvl 1s. Id just play it with a lvl 1 heavy deck

remote surge
#

it doesn't seem op when if you're already doing damage to your opponent, you have an ability to close it

steel elm
knotty sail
#

We'll have to see how it looks with all cards in the picture. It doesnt have a lot of synergy with the current cards people have in their hands, but as a complete set it'll be fine

remote surge
#

You can't get a level 3 stack out there safely without already doing damage or having a means to block or taking damage

#

You aren't just existing a 3 stack in one turn, the momentum that needs to happen for you to get that direct damage is already happening mid game

steel elm
#

Like you can do 3 damage then your opponent draws lvl 1s from that damage and is able to stabilize. This prevents them from stabilizing.

#

They just die.

remote surge
#

yeah but at that point your opponent is alerady fucked

#

you have a level 3 out there

#

you don't have to do direct damage to win

steel elm
#

Other 3 damage options need to do way more in that same situation to get that damage.

remote surge
#

your level 3 is going to do 3 damage if your opponant is already on the fense

#

i just don't think it's the most op thing at the way the game plays currently

knotty sail
#

But your opponent can be dominant and still get exploded

steel elm
#

And getting your opponent to 3 or less isn't hard.

remote surge
#

if there's a card that allows you to play bean powers with one less bean, that's going to make it fucked up

remote surge
#

you know what i mean

#

im pretending like the card does 2 damage

#

not 3

steel elm
#

At a turn point but not over.

remote surge
#

but it can be over in one attack phase if played right

#

and i think having something unblockable that finishes it is cool

steel elm
#

That's praying man

remote surge
#

right

#

but that's why i don't think bottle in the genie is op

knotty sail
#

Sure, I think two is better. But the thing I think we have to keep in mind is that turn 1 you can play a ball, bottle in the genie, and a cow ouioui. Attack for 1, have a good board state. Next turn, level up Bottle in the genie, have a fully functional lvl 2, attack with it, and then explode next turn

remote surge
#

50% of the time you are going to do direct damage AND the card will be there next turn

steel elm
#

I feel this would outclass praying man way too easily.

remote surge
remote surge
steel elm
remote surge
#

Praying man stays ont he field

knotty sail
#

Yeah but when its exhausted its still useless for a turn

ember wren
#

0p basically means you can't block with it until you level it up

remote surge
#

yeah

#

or you auto kill it

#

Idk if you've been reading what i've been sayin mush, but im all for the card

ember wren
#

I am. Idk how I fully feel about it. But I like the idea

remote surge
#

i think the only thing that will make it fucked up is if we have a helper card that knocks down a bean requirement

#

then it can do it's attack at turn 2

knotty sail
#

But once its a lvl 2 that 0p doesnt really matter. Youre fighting with your lvl 2 not the 0P level 1, and then you just wait for an opportune time to explode

remote surge
#

but then again here's the thing

#

Untalented hack

#

can copy the power

knotty sail
#

Yup

remote surge
#

So you have defence

steel elm
#

If 0p still blocks it's still a solid blocker.

remote surge
#

you literlaly can use it againt them

remote surge
knotty sail
#

I like exploding, we just need to balance the total power it can do

#

Total damage

remote surge
#

i think 2 damage is all you need to do

#

2 direct life cards

steel elm
ember wren
knotty sail
#

Like if you level it up with a black sheepy and then a dinkle

#

Its now just a dinkle with a bomb when the moment is right

remote surge
#

that's how i've thought about it

#

just being an open hole in your defence until leveled

ember wren
#

Comes in perma exhausted*

steel elm
#

Could be the first 3 color ability.

remote surge
#

nah

#

that's too annoying

#

plus

#

yeah

#

i don't like that

#

makes it too niche

knotty sail
#

Cow peepy already has two color req

remote surge
#

i think you're OVER ESTIMATING it's power

steel elm
#

Doing 3 damage should be niche

remote surge
#

im thinking about it being 2 damage

#

i think you're insanely overestimating it's power

#

mush i wanna play a match with that card eventually

knotty sail
#

2 is better, but we'll check it out

steel elm
#

2 would balance it more I think. I think it's more fun to pay a silly cost for bigger damage.

remote surge
#

if you never get to use it whats' the fun in that

knotty sail
#

Exodia

steel elm
#

Not never just make it a little harder

remote surge
#

exodia you can easily make decks for

#

exodia is just an expunging deck

#

this isn't an exodia

steel elm
#

You could also print cards to support the play style.

remote surge
#

exodia is a 1TKO

knotty sail
#

Three different color beans isnt really that hard but Im also not necessarily sold on that. I think we just balance it with Praying Man in mind and it'll be fine

steel elm
#

Praying Man is fair and balanced

remote surge
#

praying man is 50% chance to do direct damage, averaged out to a 50% chance to do 2 damage, but it stays on the board

steel elm
#

Feels really good when it pops off.

knotty sail
#

It does 1 damage per turn on average with a chance to discard a card

remote surge
#

right

#

so if you think about it this way, 2 damage and killing your stack and you can never do it again

#

that's fair

#

that's 1000% fair

knotty sail
#

Yeah but the use case is you do it when you can win because your opponent cant do anything about it

remote surge
#

Right

#

but you can do that with praying man

knotty sail
#

Yeah 1 in 4 chance

remote surge
#

but

#

it never goes away

#

you can keep doing it

#

and

#

there's cards to fix the outcome of the coin toss

#

you can guarentee 1 damage

knotty sail
#

If I have 3 level 3s out, you can still just pop on by with exploding

remote surge
#

then 3 direct damage becomes a 50%

steel elm
remote surge
knotty sail
remote surge
#

you have to already be winning for it to matter

remote surge
#

but

#

again

#

thinking if there ARE going to be

knotty sail
#

Coin used to do that but it was too strong.

remote surge
#

yeah

knotty sail
#

It will happen in the future for sure though

remote surge
#

100%

#

so it'll make praying man more powerful

#

and make bottle in a genie look like shit

knotty sail
#

Well maybe maybe not

steel elm
remote surge
#

again i think 2 direct damage on a stack that needs to be level 3 and then it gets 100% killed is good

knotty sail
#

Your helper token use plus a helper card to increase your odds from 1/2 to 1/4 is a commitment

remote surge
steel elm
#

Sorry I keep forgetting

remote surge
#

anyways i gotta shower but im 100% for this card

#

i think it'll be good

knotty sail
#

Im for it too, the premise is fine

#

Im just saying we'll be careful with it.

#

I have two cards in mind for the expansion anyway, one is a bottom up beanstrike, and the other is a card the negates direct damage but allows your opponent to draw cards in exchange

#

One thing I dont like about genie currently is that there's no removal once its lvl 2

ember wren
#

Bottom up bean strike is kinda awesome but kinda crazy

steel elm
#

If it's 2 I think it might be fine yeah.

#

How would a bottom up bean strike work?

knotty sail
ember wren
#

Level one removed and the other two to the owners hand

knotty sail
#

Yeah, but it would need something else to balance the potential two turns of leveling up youre mitigating

#

You are trading 1 helper card + your helper token use. In exchange you destroy one card and remove potentially 1 or 2 turns they spent leveling cards up

#

I think if you bounce a lvl 2 its fine. If you bounce a lvl 3 it needs a bonus for the player its getting used on

#

As a side note, it might be interesting to use it on yourself

ember wren
#

Anyway you guys can kinda see how in thinking for green cards

knotty sail
#

Yeah, dont worry about the numbers. We'll balance everything all nicely.

#

If 3 exploding is too strong we'll try 2 exploding. If 2 exploding doesnt feel right, we'll make it 3 but give it an additional cost or some benefit to the explodee

steel elm
knotty sail
#

I mean ultimately it is still a helper card you are using, it should benefit you

#

It just shouldnt be 50% better than a beanstrike, it should be similarly strong

steel elm
#

Yeah I'm just comparing the benefit to strike

knotty sail
#

Definitely

steel elm
#

You could potentially be removing way more cards. Even if they play a lvl 1 next turn they can't upgrade it because of stage fright

knotty sail
#

Im just spitballing off of the top of my head as I came up with the idea. Its in no way a complete idea. Just an idea Id like to implement that could be balanced in a number of ways

steel elm
#

Yeah I'm just talking it out because I like the idea.

knotty sail
steel elm
#

That sounds fun

knotty sail
#

What I like about this game is that we can just write anything like that onto a card as long as what it is, is clear. If something has an effect we want to soften, we can give it some sort of drawback

steel elm
#

Yeah I like how straightforward it is.

#

I'm trying to think of a card that would counter bottle that doesn't just counter all other ways of stopping 3 damage too. I think making it 2 is probably just the easiest way to go about it.

knotty sail
#

The thing that Im thinking about more than it being 2 or 3 damage, is the pros/cons of using it. When Mush made it 0P thats a step in the right direction. But that whole negative is completely removed when it becomes a level 2. So while you are preparing to use it, it can be a normal level 2 thats blocking, attacking, and using abilities.

#

It seems the the con of having it just be an exploding vase goes away. It can become a dinkle or mr baby or homie that is a fully functional card until the time it decides to explode

steel elm
#

It basically becomes an unblockable lvl 3. You get hit by Dinkle then next turn it explodes and kills you.

knotty sail
#

Maybe this would be grounds to keep it as a 3 damage explodey card, but what if its cost was 2 beans and it didnt provide any beans itself

steel elm
#

I really like messing with the bean cost.

knotty sail
#

So a lvl 3 card would never be able to use its level 3 ability, and as a lvl 2 it couldn't use its lvl 2 ability until it became a lvl 3

steel elm
#

And a no bean card would be sick

knotty sail
#

That way as a lvl 2 and 3 its a slightly weaker lvl 2 and 3 stack, but it can still splode. I mean optimal gameplay would be using it defensively like building a homie on it

#

But thats interesting in itself because youre creating a blocker stack with a little extra potential utility

steel elm
#

Is hack copying an issue?

knotty sail
#

I think that keeps it exactly as Mush intended the card to be. It just extends the power nerf and makes it a bomb

knotty sail
# steel elm Is hack copying an issue?

We'd have to play test it, but I think thats really really cool interaction. Untalentless hack doesnt have enough use cases currently and its only a chance at a bomb

steel elm
#

50/50 but you only have to blow up a 2 stack sounds fair.

#

Damn that sounds like a lot of fun to play against.

knotty sail
#

50/50 and relies on you having the right cards to make it happen. Its not a counter, its a potential interesting encounter that might or might not work out and would result in dramatic gameplay

#

And then we add in the helper card that allows you to change the outcome of a coin flip

steel elm
#

Hack needs these interactions to be good. It would also make the useless lvl 3 abilities more useful since hack could steal those too.

steel elm
knotty sail
#

It will be a good ability, there just needs to be more cards for it to copy. Same with obloblobloblbo its a good card, it just relies on this next set to make sense

steel elm
#

Yeah exactly. The best I can find for it right now is Dinkle copying. Maybe praying man.

knotty sail
#

We have a lot of stuff in mind but before we got too complicated and technical we wanted 2 player starter decks that are simple combat, simple helpers, simple interactions so we could work our the core of the game before throwing in 5 card synergies

steel elm
#

It's fun though

#

Yeah the decks are good. They show off a lot of fun stuff and don't feel too competitive.

#

Except for Obloblobo

#

Bottle costing 2 and not giving a bean sounds like a great downside though. I think it would lead to some really interesting deck building decisions.

knotty sail
#

Oblobloblo will make sense when rush is more of a strategy. I didnt want to make that an initial theme because its kind of lazy and is boring without counters that slow down gameplay. Say a helper card existed that let you level up an additional card, or a lvl 1 card that was strong but had some additional downside while it had stagefright was paired with oblobobobobo

#

Everything will make sense soon

steel elm
#

Maybe something that has stage fright for 2 turns but attacks for [4]

#

Might be funny to give a lvl 3 stage fright.

pearl sun
#

I feel like this is too strong for a level 1 although I suppose it needs 3 beans

remote surge
#

the idea that it's level 1 means that it's useless but out there

vernal kraken
#

I think it’s a super cool concept it just needs some sort of consequence counter

#

Ive been thinking of a different way to combat it (other than it neutralizing your stack) and maybe if there was a helper that could target a stack? But that’s way op so then maybe you can only target a stack if it’s equal to your P so both stacks die

#

Kinda like explode from pokemon i guess lol

#

Im just imagining how i’d react to my opponent having one and what i’d wanna do about it

#

Idk, i love the gambling deck and think it’s funny when i mess myself up with it lol

steel elm
steel elm
remote surge
steel elm
#

Well I mean these guys are weaker than other early game guys. Like ball and obloblobo can get you value early but don't scale well. This card only does well in the late game.

remote surge
#

which is a good consequence

steel elm
#

Yeah I agree those are my favorite deck archetypes to play.

#

I'm curious what a lvl 2 green guy will look like. I imagine they're something to help you survive till late game to pull off these effects.

#

Dinkle and carrot man are meant to rip through defenses and end the game quickly. Homie and praying man are more about grinding it out. I think green is going more in that late game grind direction.

umbral totem
#

I’m guessing shield, mysterious ampoule, and bean strike can all prevent the card from being composted? With that in mind I’d for sure want the opponent to lose two life instead of three. I also like marmot’s idea of making it a 2-bean requirement and the card supplying no beans

#

one thing that is nice, if I’m playing against someone using bottle in the genie, and they save their stack with a shield, I can still play beanletting to get rid of it

ember wren
vernal kraken
#

Ooo the second one could be cool

#

A consequence for your opponent attacking you

umbral totem
#

I think it’s all meant to be one thing, like just changing the order it’s written to stop someone from using shield to use the ability twice

vernal kraken
#

Ohhhh

#

I was thinking if you send it to compost (cause someone killed you) then it explodes

steel elm
vernal kraken
#

I see now 😭

steel elm
#

I think my main problem with this card is it isn't very interactive. In order to deal 3 or even 2 damage in any other way I have to do so much more. I have to interact with combat and more removal options. I think it would lead to a similar effect as the old bean bed ruling. I remember my opponent reacted like "well I guess the game has to end at some point". It just doesn't seem all that fun if the game is ended that way.

#

I like the idea of it as a ticking time bomb, but what are my options to defuse it?

steel elm
#

It kind of reminds me of this card. But what makes this card fun is how much control the opponent has over the situation. They can attempt to stay over or under 10. There's more interesting decisions on the opponent's part.

fdn-202-hidetsugu-s-second-rite.jpg
remote surge
#

i think the wordier a card gets the less fun it is

#

not to disambiguate it

#

but the more situations you can use it

remote surge
#

nothing more annoying than having something be directly for a situation for one thing

#

the way yugioh gets around some of this shit is by having a graveyard and banishing

steel elm
remote surge
#

i think being able to prevent the composting of your own card with a shield helper to negate the downside of a bottle in a genie is cool

#

it's smart

#

it's why most cards in beansprout have "choose a player" basically

#

not a lot of things are opponent or player specific

#

meaning bottle in a genie can be used to attack yourself

#

and if you can do that, prevent composting, now you have 3 extra cards at the cost of your life and nothing else

#

why would you do that?

#

why not

#

it's fun

steel elm
# remote surge like this card fucking sucks

nah this shit fucks. my friend drafted it and deleted my sister with it. To me saying it's bad because it's for one specific thing is like saying exodia is bad because it plays for exodia.

remote surge
#

EXODIA IS BAD

#

THAT'S THE THING

#

EXODIA IS A BAD DECK AND IT'S A GIMMICK DECK

#

if you can't OTK you lose

#

also it's not fun

#

You will never win a tournament with exodia

steel elm
#

Not all cards are about tournament winning.

#

Building jank is fun

remote surge
#

i'm just saying exodia is a gimmick deck and it's not good s

#

so why pretend like it's good

#

when there's statistical information about it as a gimmick is bad

#

you can win with it if you're lucky, that's all

#

it's a deck where you literally just shed cards and draw as many as possible until you have all five pieces and if you fuck it up you lose

steel elm
remote surge
#

right, so does pokemon

steel elm
#

Yeah luck is a big factor

remote surge
#

okay and your point though

#

you can't OTK in beansprout

steel elm
#

Yeah and that's good. My broad point is that niche playstyles are fun even if they're bad. Playing around getting someone to 10 is fun because it's a puzzle to solve, it may not be tournament viable. But you and your friends might have fun with it in certain formats.

#

I like looking at a shit card and doing my best with it.

remote surge
#

Bringing this back to bottle in a genie, im just saying that the card is fun and that hyper specifying when you can use it and how you can use it sucks

#

"you can only deal 3 direct life points when they have more than 3 life cards" or something like that would suck

#

because it would make the hype factor of nailing it not feel as good

steel elm
#

Instead of just you get to lvl 3 and do it, maybe it requires you to discard a card or something.

remote surge
#

and i disagree

steel elm
#

Sure yeah I just want you to understand why I brought up that card. I like how much control the opponent has in preventing themselves from taking half their life pool.

remote surge
#

oh i understand

#

i jsu tdon't think it's a fun card

steel elm
#

I've had fun with it. It kind of felt like praying man popping off. It's a rare but very powerful occurance.

#

Getting to lvl 3 isn't all that hard and I'm not sure the risk matches the reward.

remote surge
#

and i've stated why i disagree

#

Imagine it being a level 1 0p card that had did 2 direct damage at level 3 and was perma tapped until it leveled to level 2.
if someone set up an instance trying to go for a full kill doing only direct damage, a first turn draw with only that card would leave your team wide open for direct damage, then leveling up one of them to a level 2 gives you only 1 card that you can successfully use, you can block with it but then your opponant still has 3 monsters they can use to attack again, sure youc an block one but you'll still take 2 direct damage again, you have 1 life card and a level 3 that does 2 direct damage, then it's tapped your team is wide open still, you die
Now replacing those other 2 with level 1s that can block, yo uhave a bit of defence but you can either die or try to block their attack.
Depending on how the other team builds they might be able to take your level 1 cards easily, or even strike your level 2 just to fuck with you before youc an get to level 3. You still have to draw to get a level 2 or level 3 card so you're still working at a disadvantage at every level if your gimmick is to build for direct health

#

No matter what, building bottle in a genie leaves you on a back swing and playing in defence

#

and playing in defence is not a good position when your one trick pony kills itself to do 2 or 3 damage or whatever

#

praying man doens't kill itself and discarding a card doesn't matter if you're already on the offence

#

Bottle in a Genie is strictly a gimmick card that isn't that powerful, because if you already have the offencive lead where it'll win you the game, you're already doing good.

#

This is what i've been saying the entire time

#

3 turns to build up direct damage while you're doing virtually NONE, it's not good for any momentum, it's the final swing and even then you can see it 3 turns coming

#

It is not an overpowered card, it's a pure fun gimmick to build with

#

if you see it coming you can do so much to prevent it

#

you literally have 3 turns to figure out what the fuck to do

#

an instant in magic, you don't know it exists

#

you can't predict your opponant has that card without prior knowledge

#

bottle in a genie is placing a bomb on a timer and saying "defuse this' and the level of danger you're at is calculated to how strong you are at that moement

#

if you're playing defencively and they do that, sure you're going to be screwed, if you're on the offence and they do that, they lose

#

but i don't see a situation in generality where it's over powered without being specifically being a late game option.
Yeah if you have a good level three you can attack well, but there goes your only blocker at that point if you're setting it up asap

#

if you're not setting it up asap you still have offensive options that are already potentially putting you at an advantage

#

this is why i just advocate for it being 2 direct life points and thats it

#

it's not a be all end all, it's a gaping hole that keeps you on the back swing

#

that's how i see it

steel elm
# remote surge Imagine it being a level 1 0p card that had did 2 direct damage at level 3 and w...

That's a lot I wouldn't nerf it that hard. I'm fine with it being 2 direct damage which you seem to agree with. In my experience drawing 1 of most lvl 1s is often a loss. In most cases you probably wouldn't go right for upgrading bottle. I would probably treat it like a family cube and just have it there and not attack. Upgrading it in the mid game after setting up a different threat, chipping them down so I can finish them off.

steel elm
steel elm
steel elm
steel elm
#

Neither of us have played with it. I can definitely see being wrong because it is slow, and aggro would likely give it trouble. But with the card I'm looking at this looks like it will be even better at ending stalemates than praying man.

steel elm
knotty sail
#

So to me, what makes the game fun is unexpected twists and turns. Coming up with a strategy and then having something get in the way so you have to think creatively. Going back and forth for control of the game tempo and initiative is what I think makes an engaging game

#

I dont want to write cards that are wordy as in technical. If its a reading comprehension test thats not fun. We dont need shy away from multiple functions, conditions, and directives. I just think whatever we write on a card needs to be a series of directions. Following a cake recipe rather than reading a text book. 1) do this. 2) if this is true then do this, otherwise do this. Finally, do this

steel elm
#

Yeah that's part of the reason I like your idea of it not providing a bean. It changes things up in an easy to understand way. There's a lot of simple ways to balance it I think.

knotty sail
#

I also dont want to make cards that are ever completely useless. Exodia's leg is useless. If we make cards that you have to throw three cards together to make an exodia, you will be rewarded for pulling it off but if you cant pull it off, you can still kick with your leg. It might just be a weak lvl 1 compared to others

#

We try to give cards multiple functions as well. We wont have cards that you cant play if you have fewer than 6 life cards out. We could make a card that gets a bonus perk or a negative effect if you have fewer than 6 life

steel elm
#

I agree with you, but exodia's pieces can also be played as monsters. I mostly posted that card as an example of how restrictions on cards can give players agency. Black Sheepy might have been a better example.

steel elm
knotty sail
#

You wont always have the perfect opportunity to play a card, but you could also say every monster card you have is useless if your opponent has stronger ones out

#

I guess beanletting would be useless against a deck that didn't have any monster cards in it. Like if it was just a helper deck

steel elm
#

It's useless in a scenario where any damage is lethal.

knotty sail
#

What I mean is like, Magic has cards that say counter a black spell

#

Well whats the point in having that in your deck if your opponent doesnt happen to play a deck with black cards in it

steel elm
#

I kind of feel that way about mr L. Why use it if your opponent can draw cards? I always looked at that card as a matchup check.

knotty sail
#

You'll see

steel elm
#

I just feel it's a gradient. Some cards will always be more niche than others. I agree that countering black is lame, but I also feel some of that specific counter play is good for the game.

knotty sail
#

It is, but we wont create cards that counter other cards. We'll create cards that give favorable outcomes if you counter those cards, but can still be used

#

If homie was the meta, we could make cards that do extra damage to cards with blocking effects. But it would be designed to be strong against homie and still a valid normal card in the case that your opponent does not play homie

steel elm
#

Yeah I'm against hard counters to archetypes. I think a bad matchup should aim for 60/40

knotty sail
#

Everything should have pros and cons that reward you for clever plays. When you synergize two cards together, they should have the power of 2.5 or maybe 3 cards. So every time you progress a good plan, and stop your opponent from making their good plan work, you slowly progress towards victory

steel elm
#

Yeah I like that philosophy more than magic or yugiyo where 2 cards can literally end the game with an infinite combo. It's why I prefer low power level magic.

knotty sail
#

Agreed, I liked Yugioh when it was pretty much just monster beat down with some simple, ok boardwipe time, rules. When side decks and weird random interactions that occurred adjacent to the game got added I got bored

#

Sacrifice X to get Y made sense. Then it was like, ok well if the sum of the stars of these cards were right you can just hack out a super strong combination card that doesnt even rely on you having it in your hand.

steel elm
#

Mill your own library into your graveyard then pull out all of your creatures and win instantly.

#

Also you have no lands and this is viable lol

#

I don't think those things are bad. They're interesting to see. I would just like to play a game that's balanced against that. I'm far more casual than that.

remote surge
#

Beansprout isn't at the point magic or yugioh is for it's stupidity to be fucked up like them

#

so i think basing beansprout purely on anecdotals from those games is moot

steel elm
#

You can learn from those games to balance this one. We've all had experiences with card games that shape our taste. I was trying to draw comparison between 2 cards that both take half of your life pool away and why I felt one was more interactive than the other. Maybe too interactive.

knotty sail
#

Yeah, I dont think we've directly taken any features from any games, but we have certainly moved far away from things we dont like. I cant stand Magic's turn length and all of the manipulation and upkeep and steps and stages. If Im just sitting there watching my opponent look through their deck and pick up and put down and flip and shuffle cards all on their own, and it makes no difference if Im there to interact with what they are doing or off getting a snack, im done with the game.

#

Things will be getting more involved soon, but not more complicated

steel elm
#

Yeah I don't think there's any exact mechanics taken from anything I've played but I definitely feel at home as someone who played a lot of magic. It definitely feels inspired by magic and pokemon.

#

Yeah there's some decks in magic that just feel like I'm juggling while my opponent watches. You can have a good time in magic if you play with certain formats. Me and my friend made one up with all the cards we've collected. I haven't had the urge to play since BS came out though.

#

I've returned to magic like 2 twice at this point I'm sure I will again. I just like the way we play.

ember wren
#

Btw I'm reading this. I hope you guys know all the arguing is in good spirit and really enjoy reading how people think and want to play.

For me I want to keep this type of game where both sterling and bumble can enjoy it.

I like exodia as a gimmick and I like risk reward stuff. I see the game as a pack of tubes and gears to make a marble machine

#

If someone wants to be able to win with a stupid card I think that's awesome

vernal kraken
#

I lovee risk reward

remote surge
#

im not mad at anyone

#

i just wanted to make my perspective get across while putting out my personal concerns on why i see it a specific way

ember wren
#

I'm mad at you

vernal kraken
#

I suck at strategy so i gamble for the win

steel elm