#Remove Health/Failure

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lavish forge
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true

worthy cradle
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I guess it's a bit like training wheels? lmao

lavish forge
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but it can be disheartening at times too, esp if you've just gone up a difficulty level and are finding it way harder due to how the different difficulty levels can be charted

worthy cradle
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that's also where practice mode comes in, tbf

lavish forge
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also true

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does SRXD have a practice mode?

worthy cradle
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it does

lavish forge
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i see

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ngl, i don't play it loads but Jason's comments on stream the other day prompted me to check here

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i actually got the game through a code on Jason's stream a few months back, funnily enough

worthy cradle
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that's what led to the thread being made, tbh lmao

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it provoked a major discussion, as you can see

floral escarp
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We’ve talked about no-fail before though

lavish forge
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aye. tbh, im glad the convo's still going on

worthy cradle
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indeed but not quite to this extent tbf

floral escarp
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Or having the health regen work differently

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Or having the health loss work differently

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Though for people who just want to be able to run through the whole chart regardless of health, practice mode is already a thing and I don’t really know why people don’t use it

ripe lantern
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editor is better

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at least for people who make charts already

worthy cradle
ripe lantern
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(most of the people who can play high dif)

royal sapphire
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The main downside of playing through a full chart in Practice is that you might get a run that could have passed, but you won't get a score for it

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Currently, it's a pretty common to switch to Practice mode just to see the rest of the chart, but now that won't be necessary since you can always play the whole chart for real

floral escarp
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yeah I get that, but for someone who, say, really loves a song and wants to play it but it’s 10 points harder than anything they’ve been comfortable with before

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They currently could play it in practice instead of failing out in 30 seconds and feeling upset

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So that’s where I’m confused about why someone wouldn’t use practice mode

royal sapphire
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Because you can fail out but still get to play the rest

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It's no different from Practice mode, except for the fact that you get a score

worthy cradle
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it's also currently in the 3-dots menu in song select though, which is better than before but also still not very apparent unless you pause or fail/complete a song

floral escarp
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Yeah I’m saying I don’t understand why, right now, people don’t seem to use practice mode for the situation it’s perfect for

royal sapphire
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Oh

worthy cradle
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your guess is as good as mine: perhaps it's not super obvious that it's a thing? lmao

floral escarp
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Since this whole discussion is being sparked by what happened with Jason

worthy cradle
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Jason refused to play on practice mode

floral escarp
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Yes I know

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But I don’t know why

ripe lantern
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Probably because he wanted to be satisfied with the challenge of finishing the chart

worthy cradle
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stream environment perhaps

stone wave
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playing charts in practice mode just to play through them feels weird

floral escarp
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Like is there some change that could happen to practice mode that would make it less off-putting to someone?

ripe lantern
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rather than just playing through it missing a lot

floral escarp
stone wave
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practice mode also overrides bgs

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right

floral escarp
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It was not going to happen

ripe lantern
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I played though a lot of songs on mania that were at least a star above my skill ceiling

floral escarp
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So would making the background persist in practice mode make a difference?

ripe lantern
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and failed out of a lot of them

foggy vine
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cat typed woops, anyway, is there no fail in mania?

wind ruin
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if you pass, you pass, if not, you still get to play the chart, while in practice if you pass you get nothing for it

elder crescent
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i don't like playing in practice mode either

wind ruin
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used it recently to get past dance with silence remixd's final drop

elder crescent
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i've done it once to slow down MAD for the patterns so i could pass it, but other than that i'd rather just fail out and leave it tbh

plush jay
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I honestly don’t like the system where you still get points because it just makes it objectively worse to play with no fail off

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Like there is absolutely no reason at all to play with it off if you aren’t gonna fail

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I really see an issue with that honestly

wind ruin
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beat saber applies a 50% penalty to your final score if you fail, with no fail, and I still leave it on most of the time

plush jay
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I think it should generally be the norm to play without no fail

wind ruin
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I don't see an issue with just leaving it on

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turning off no fail is if you want to grind for a pass on a hard chart imo, then you're just saving time

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instead of having to back out manually when you fail

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as long as you're rewarded for passing and penalized for failing at some point, it's all good imo, then it's a matter of implementation

plush jay
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Idk it’s just like at this point there was basically no compromise you just objectively play with no fail on

worthy cradle
plush jay
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Because I think it’s still important when and how many things you miss

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I don’t think missing multiple notes over time is equivalent to not parsing one full pattern at all

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And I think that should be punished

wind ruin
plush jay
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And I think no fail should be a “I want to see the whole chart button”

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Rather than a score thing

plush jay
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It makes no difference

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I want there to be a difference

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I just disagree that score is the only important thing

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I think it does in fact matter the weight and the amount of your misses

wind ruin
plush jay
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well what I am saying is I think that when you miss that densely you should fail out

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and then if you don't like that you would turn on no fail

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but you shouldn't get to submit a score for it

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that's just my take

foggy vine
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I think the issue is that if you are going to fail there's no point in having no fail off, someone who gets 75% into a chart and dies with it off, can be beaten by someone who got 60% into a chart and dies

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with it on

plush jay
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and there the conflict is whether or not people think that is okay

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I am one that does not

wind ruin
foggy vine
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I'm fine with a no fail option, just not fine with how the score implementation is working

plush jay
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^

foggy vine
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I think just not submitting works on multiple fronts

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because it:
A) Allows someone to get full multiplier after failing out still, so they can see their true potential score
B) Allows for competitions that might have charts that are likely to be failed, and still have equivalent scoring systems (like ani has mentioned)

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C) It provides a reason to actually have the system off, which I think helps people actually identify struggle areas more than just a score card can reflect (especially with how legible the score card is)

worthy cradle
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not submitting when fail state is set during play, right?

royal sapphire
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Just to be clear, you mean no submission if you fail, not no submission if you just turn No Fail on, right?

foggy vine
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yeah, or at least, not submitting if one fails

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yes

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I think it is a more elegant solution than the multiplier reduction

elder crescent
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i like that idea tbf

royal sapphire
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If it were done that way, I think it would need to apply to failures when No Fail is disabled too

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Which isn't the case now

stone wave
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?

plush jay
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hwy

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why

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you get your bad failed score

foggy vine
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As in don't post the score if you fail with it on?

plush jay
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there is no issue with that

foggy vine
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err

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off

royal sapphire
plush jay
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it is

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the same way we have it

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but with no fail on

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if you fail

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it doesnt submit

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that's all

royal sapphire
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But it does submit when you fail with No Fail off?

plush jay
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yes because you didn't finish the chart

royal sapphire
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Then for No Fail on, just submit the score you had so there's no score impact

plush jay
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I'm fine with that as well

royal sapphire
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The score at the point of failure, I mean

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Then there's no element of risk when deciding whether to enable No Fail

plush jay
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there doesnt need to be

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it's just a button

foggy vine
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If its possible to submit the score at the point of failure, and provide a scorecard for their full play still sure

plush jay
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that doesn't let you fail

foggy vine
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I'm addressing ani's concerns earlier

plush jay
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it shouldn't be tied to score at all

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it's an accessibility thing

royal sapphire
foggy vine
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Then that feels like the best middle ground at the moment imo

worthy cradle
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alright, I'll try to write a summary for reference

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No-Fail modifier:
When turned on, this modifier will make it so it's possible to complete a track without the risk of failing out and interrupting play. When a fail state is activated (upon depleting health), the score is locked under the hood, and this would be the score submitted to leaderboards. Visually (and perhaps locally stored), the score would accumulate as normal, but the health bar will vanish to indicate the fail state. Upon finishing the track, the player will receive their medal and score as normal, but there will be an indicator that shows that the player reached a fail state at any point throughout the run. The fail score submitted to the leaderboards will also be displayed, potentially in the space above the Practice and Replay buttons.

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any issues that should be pointed out?

royal sapphire
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It would show the normal medal, or the failed medal?

worthy cradle
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mm, good question

summer frost
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(psst)

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(medal hologram)

floral escarp
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I like edge’s idea

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Like a would-be medal

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Conveys both pieces of information succinctly

worthy cradle
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y'know what, yeah, I like that

elder crescent
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hologram medal would be cool

royal sapphire
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Sounds good

summer frost
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what branch is the modifier on

worthy cradle
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private1.0beta

royal sapphire
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Should be a thing that shows regardless of No Fail, though

summer frost
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gotem

worthy cradle
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RIP skull medal

royal sapphire
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Also in the case of No Fail, is the rank on the hologram medal the rank of your failed score, or your real score?

worthy cradle
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that's the real question, isn't it

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for player satisfaction, visually it should be the rank based on the full score

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at least imo

elder crescent
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yeah full score would be best i think

worthy cradle
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for now I'll be pinning my summary, if y'all don't mind me doing so

elder crescent
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fine by me

worthy cradle
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issue is that I'm not sure if the game is currently capable of keeping track of scores in that way? ideally it would be easy to just save the score to a variable when the fail state is activated and make use of it there

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actually, would a better approach be tracking the fail score and the visual score at the same time until a fail state is reached? in which case, the score accumulation for the fail score would be paused

royal sapphire
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Might make the UI a little cramped

worthy cradle
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not visually ofc

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under the hood

royal sapphire
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Oh mean do all the scoring logic for both in parallel?

worthy cradle
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yep

royal sapphire
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That wouldn't be necessary

worthy cradle
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just simply save the fail score to a variable then, like I initially thought then?

wind ruin
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not not uploading the score at all

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so that way it'd retain parity between no fail on and off

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it wouldn't matter for score, at all

worthy cradle
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that's how the summary describes it, yes

wind ruin
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you'd just play the whole chart guaranteed if you have it on

elder crescent
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yeah check pinned if you haven't

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just sums it up

wind ruin
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ok I scrolled all the way down and missed that

spark rock
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a percentage penalty for failed runs would be easier both to implement and display

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like if you fail at any point during the run your score gets cut in half at the end or something like that

worthy cradle
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that's how beat saber handles it, right

spark rock
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I believe so? I haven't put much time into that game yet but iirc that's how it works

cursive trout
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I did think about that and tried to make it so that if it was on at all it stays on until the end of the run.
May be bugged though still?
(Haven’t caught up on all of the discussion yet sorry, we get back on in a few hours 💤😅)

wind ruin
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yes, beat saber applies a 50% penalty, which is enough to make failed score submissions completely not viable competitively

summer frost
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god are you guys getting enough sleep at least

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it's interesting how the HUD flashes every time you take damage with no fail

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but it's not intentional i'm guessing

fossil chasm
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If the score locks at the point where you failed, there's no need for a different medal, you just get the normal skull like a normal fail

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There's also no need for a penalty post fail

maiden yew
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what is the downside to just having it post the score you would have had when you failed but the chart keeps going if you have no fail mode on

foggy vine
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That's the current pinned suggestion

maiden yew
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oh

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mb

foggy vine
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nw

wooden current
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need a "lock" image to appear next to the score when you fail out

worthy cradle
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mid-play?

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I think making the healthbar disappear is a more subtle, less distracting way of indicating no-fail, personally

wooden current
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yeah a lock next to the score when you fail

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i tried it out and its too subtle

worthy cradle
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the hologram medal idea might be enough to indicate that in post-run

wooden current
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if im not looking at the health bar mid play i want to see that i failed with a new visual

royal sapphire
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Failing shouldn't be subtle

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It should be obvious

wind ruin
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sorry to refer to beat saber again

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but when you fail in that game you get a bright red flash in the environment

royal sapphire
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Even a brief sound effect at the moment of failure might help a lot

wind ruin
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and your health bar goes grey

royal sapphire
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Gray bar sounds better than hidden, yeah

floral escarp
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Why though? If you’d restart upon failure… then why do you have no-fail on?

royal sapphire
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Red flash might not work well given that the screen is flashing red when you're low

wind ruin
worthy cradle
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I'd rather the failure be subtle for those who are just vibing

floral escarp
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In which case why do you need to obviously know that you failed?

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unless your restart depends on how far through you were when you failed…?

wind ruin
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idk, we're getting too specific into UX now for me to contribute more lol

floral escarp
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A red flash is too similar to the low health warning

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What about a skull that shows up where the FC star used to be

wooden current
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a lock or an X next to the score would suffice honestly, just something with the score that indicates it and not just the health bar

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or, your failed score shows up above the score with a lock next to it, since your fail score is "locked in"

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unless the 3x thing sticks

worthy cradle
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with score submitting on point of failure, there'd be no need to have multiplier set to 3x

maiden yew
wooden current
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yeah so your score gets locked, its "here is your score, you can keep playing but your score is locked to the failure point"

maiden yew
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also i feel like its better to be subtle since the point of no fail is to not really be paying attention to if you failed or not

plush jay
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I think people would appreciate knowing

floral escarp
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That’s why I was thinking a skull like the FC star would make sense, because the people who don’t want to know will have it turned off, and the people who do want to know will see it show up in a place they’re already used to noticing

maiden yew
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i mean it should still show you in some way but i dont think it needs to be a big visual or audio cue

plush jay
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it should just always be noticeable

orchid fractal
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It's been too days

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I'm still muted

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@worthy cradle can you help out man

elder crescent
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rip

worthy cradle
cursive trout
shadow valley
proven frost
shadow valley
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Also I would think that the fail-state would show somewhere in that bar graph at the end? Good way to see which section you need to practice to avoid the fail-state

cursive trout
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Personally I'm still kind of for the 3x limit. Just to keep some stakes, but I'm not super attached.
Yeah, a little X on the graph would be needed I think

ripe lantern
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Will always feel weird to me that you can just... have it on at 0 cost. But I understand that's not what everyone seeks in this game.

shadow valley
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I mean isn't no-cost the whole point of no-fail, at least in my opinion

cursive trout
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It's still a big cost if you're gunning for a leaderboard spot

shadow valley
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Like it just shows as a no-fail run

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in some way

ripe lantern
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I mean that like there's no reason to not always have it on

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If your sole purpose is playing as optimally as possible

shadow valley
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right yeah, but I think that can be catered for solely visually. Like you can see that it was a no-fail run and your leaderboard score is the fail-state score

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well, so visually and competitively

ripe lantern
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If you fail out of a chart, the next time you play it you're sight reading past the fail point

shadow valley
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I mean personally I use practice modes for well, practicing...but if people wanna just like jam to the music regardless then shrug

royal sapphire
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You end up with the same score and rank as you'd have with it off, so you're not getting any strict advantage with it on

ripe lantern
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I wish that even on a passing score there was a tick mark or something noting that the run had no fail on

shadow valley
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that was the hologram medal discussion wasn't it?

ripe lantern
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I really really want it with clear notes at least

shadow valley
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Or you mean a no-fail run where there was no fail-state?

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a no-fail run with no fail-state would be essentially identical to a normal run would it not?

ripe lantern
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I don't mind as much with the no fail but I think it's disingenuous to have a "passing score" on a chart just because you cheesed patterns that other people would die on by just spamming thru them with note clear

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Certain player comes to mind

royal sapphire
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I think it would be better to change Clear On Miss so that it's not advantageous

ripe lantern
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Clear notes is really weird to me now that no fail is in the game

royal sapphire
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I made a different thread about that

shadow valley
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tbh I disabled clear notes anyway because that mechanic just felt like it broke the flow for me

ripe lantern
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It was already really cheesy before but now it's hard to ignore how bs it is

floral escarp
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clear notes is an important accessibility feature

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it's not about cheesing levels, it's about people with visual processing issues being able to reorient themselves

ripe lantern
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Why I think it should show up on leaderboards that it's in use

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Some people use it definitely not because they have vision issues

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But for the sole purpose of cheesing

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Just want it to be more transparent

crisp loom
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Yes but we don't shame people for not having perfect vision

wind ruin
ripe lantern
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I could see how a stigma towards using note clear to cheese things could morph into a stigma for note clear as a whole over time

crisp loom
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Feels like a bit of a console aim assist situation

ripe lantern
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Cross platform in competitive games will always allude me as a design choice to begin with

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Given the huge difference in capability between kb m and controller

wind ruin
ripe lantern
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I've noticed aim assist getting tuned higher and higher over the past few triple a cycles

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It's pretty disappointing

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It wouldn't be a problem if the space wasn't shared

cursive trout
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This is the best failed but finished looking medal I can do for now. Wireframe is too busy because the letter is on both side of the medal

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For comparison

wooden current
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looks good to me

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very clear to tell on a screenshot that its a no fail score

royal sapphire
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It looks like it's showing the real score from your previous run on the level select screen, and not your PB

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Your local PB should still be consistent with your leaderboard score

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We only need to be able to see the real score at the level complete screen, for tournament purposes

cursive trout
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Oh really? I think that would be a bit weird for players though right? Like "Hey you kinda got a B!" then they leave the results screen "JK not really"

royal sapphire
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I thought is was going to show the rank corresponding to your score at the point of failure

cursive trout
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At the moment we don't show a rank if you haven't passed the song. Just the skull medal. If you fail early but then decide to keep going and get a score you're happy with, you'd want to see it right?

cursive trout
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Got it saving both, so should be easy to change our minds there. But if the results and the track select PB remained the same

royal sapphire
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It'll be pretty unclear to those that don't look at the leaderboard, that the score they're seeing isn't the one that matters

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And the worse that could happen is that someone else would remind them that the score they just got isn't legit

cursive trout
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But the score still matters if they don't really care about the leaderboard. It's still their highest score and that affects XP

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This is the current description of how it works

royal sapphire
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Doesn't that make No Fail advantageous to progression too, then?

cursive trout
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Yeah it does

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But we're ok with that.

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Although that was kind of why I was encouraging a system where you earn less points after failure.

royal sapphire
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It seems a little backwards now, since failure now only affects competitive players who play for score, and not casual players who play to pass

worthy cradle
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I imagine it'd be easy to have xp linked to the fail score, right?

cursive trout
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I assumed the only reason for locking the score though was to not affect competition. If someone wants to scrape by on an XD chart and they get a bunch of points than more power to them right

worthy cradle
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yeah, fair point

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levels don't really mean much in the grand scheme of things tbh

summer frost
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(besides will it matter later if leveling gets "unlinked" from song unlocks)

worthy cradle
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since levels are exclusively single-player atm, I see no issue with the xp gain being based on their full score run. I also don't see an issue with their full score being the one that's locally saved: that's their best run, and it's very obvious that they failed at some point.

cursive trout
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There’s an x on the performance graph now too.

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Making a build for testing

royal sapphire
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They were insistent that what happens after you fail isn't part of your score

worthy cradle
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why would that matter for anyone but the person using the modifier

worthy cradle
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I think this iteration of No-Fail makes for a smoother but also isolated experience (in terms of competition) for those who just wanna complete and vibe to a song, so they can see the rest of the chart in a natural way without being interrupted by the failout and needing to look at it in practice mode/editor.

I think that if a player plays through a track despite failing at a mid-point, they need to know what score they actually got, and the medal they could've potentially received if they hadn't failed. But they don't earn submitting that score to the leaderboards because they failed. Perhaps the score shouldn't be saved in song-select, but personally I'm indifferent.

royal sapphire
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I do see another problem with saving the full score as a local PB, which is that it's unclear what happens if you later pass a chart with a lower score

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Does the passing run win, or the higher score?

worthy cradle
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mm, yeah. passing scores should def overwrite failed scores

royal sapphire
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But then what about those who consider their higher, failing score to be better

worthy cradle
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if failed scores were to be saved

royal sapphire
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I certainly would

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I wouldn't want to see my score get downgraded because I passed a chart

vagrant verge
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Pass meter smile

worthy cradle
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after play, go into song select and fade away the hologram while fading in the fail score lmao

cursive trout
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Atm it’ll show a failed score if it’s higher than a non fail score

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I think it’s still fine. It it’s something you care about you’ll want to keep playing until it’s a passing high score

royal sapphire
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And that applies even if you get a failing PB after you already passed, right?

worthy cradle
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that's how it currently works without no-fail

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but it also saves the medal of the passing run

cursive trout
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The build is up if people want to test it out btw

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On private1.0beta

elder crescent
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imma do it now

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i think i broke my game lmao

cursive trout
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Oh really?

elder crescent
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yee i'm just waiting for this to upload so you can see what i mean

cursive trout
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Thank you

elder crescent
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i have menu music

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but no song music

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i recorded the audio on the wrong setting lol

cursive trout
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Dang! Would you be able to share a player.log please?

elder crescent
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oh no, i don't even know where to find all that stuff lol

summer frost
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hm

elder crescent
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guess i ain't testing it then lol

summer frost
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seems to work as intended, though I think fading out the score alongside the healthbar would add to the clarity that you're in fail state

summer frost
elder crescent
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yeah i did open that

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but idk where to go fromthere

summer frost
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just send the two log files

cursive trout
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Player and Player-prev

elder crescent
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ok 2 secs

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wait how do i send it? lmao i've never had to do this before

crisp loom
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Just drag it in here.

elder crescent
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oohhh

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yeah it's fine on the actual build, but it's not working on this for some reason, but i've never had issues with the private build before

cursive trout
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Oh, it's an oopsie by me. I hadn't tested with enough customs it seems

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Thanks for the logs!

elder crescent
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ooohhh haha

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it's ok

cursive trout
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That's been fixed now @elder crescent 🙂

elder crescent
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ok sweet i'll jump back on the beta build

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i like how it shows you on the graph where you failed out with an x

cursive trout
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👍

golden marten
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Could we get an audio cue for when you fail out?

cursive trout
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Only if Dave has time

zinc garnet
uneven nexus
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yes

zinc garnet
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Implementation looks great then, best of all worlds right now Thumby

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Bugs aside

cursive trout
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Which bugs do you mean?

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I don’t make bugs! 🐛 😅