spice helm
This post's purpose is to discuss about the current restrictions per screenshot in farm comps submissions for newer EX content.
Please be strictly reminded to follow the server rules and for the discussions to be fruitful and not derail to anything else!
mystic atlas
wow
grand magnet
Chon
final stag
to summarize the debate is on whether it should be required for farm comp consistency screenshots to need >30/50 runs per screenshot to make sure its consistent and not faked (you can for example submit a bunch of 10 run screenshots that may or may not be consecutive successes to submit an inconsistent comp)
pro limit: helps with trustworthiness of comps
anti limit: doesn't stop other methods of faking comps, harmful to hardcore erranders
dusk sequoia
well the main things are
mystic atlas
ok fair since some uses 6 units
final stag
is there a screen where all units are visible + runs number?
mystic atlas
no
final stag
the one thing that is possible to 100% verify a comp is record a video of the comp in autoreplay
but that's too much effort for comp makers
glass oxide
There's also the last run after the victory and rewards screen ,which afterwards shows all the units in it
dusk sequoia
what if i offer to store your 2 hour long autoreplay videos?
glass oxide
Yeah
final stag
it's hard to ss that time though
my phone lags for screenshots
so it's hard for me to capture exact moments
dusk sequoia
you can open your phone's recorder i think
final stag
i presume a non-trivial portion of other people have this issue as well
glass oxide
Yeah
stable snow
the one thing that is possible to 100% verify a comp is record a video of the co...
This is something I would be down to try doing in the future, like showing it in action however many runs in (like L80 Sakuya farming Interlude Part 1 60 runs into an auto replay and end it there)
final stag
oh true
glass oxide
Record in a small video helps yeah
final stag
just record for 10 seconds before and after victory
yeah actually i like this idea
glass oxide
As it shows the full run + the units they brought in
dusk sequoia
all phones have this functionality right?
grand magnet
Damn
dusk sequoia
glass oxide
There's video recorder for every single phone right?
dusk sequoia
damn owl an old boomer
glass oxide
Like
grand magnet
You know some of us don’t have nitro right
grand magnet
And they limit quite heavy on how large the vid can be sent
final stag
or that yeah
dusk sequoia
like screenshot that frame
final stag
record it so that you can get the exact frame where everything is shown
i like that idea
final stag
with this you'd keep 30 run requirement?
grand magnet
No?
final stag
why not
grand magnet
Why do we even need that?
final stag
if you dont do 30 runs then it's not watertight
glass oxide
Since it's the only thing i could remember it shows the full proof
glass oxide
About run limit
final stag
it's basically impossible to fake this minus editing
formal crystal
are you all suggesting to record the entire duration of the farm? that's so convoluted
final stag
no
final stag
record 3 seconds at the very end of the farm and use the recording to screenshot the few frames where the units are shown
glass oxide
Time it start at the rewards screen
final stag
there's always a time slot of like 1-2 seconds where all units are shown on the victory screen
grand magnet
there's always a time slot of like 1-2 seconds where all units are shown on the ...
Chon
formal crystal
that's still way too much of a pain in the ass
glass oxide
1-2 seconds frame yes
viscid lichen
record 3 seconds at the very end of the farm and use the recording to screenshot...
that doesn't stop it from faking comps no?
glass oxide
Unless you're overnight ofc
formal crystal
and also would mean you need to be careful about your overnights
stable snow
are you all suggesting to record the entire duration of the farm? that's so conv...
I would actually not mind doing it, even if it's extra effort
final stag
that doesn't stop it from faking comps no?
how would you fake it then
stable snow
But that is just me
final stag
i wouldn't mind
glass oxide
If you're faking it with that screen
final stag
doesnt seem too hard to do
grand magnet
Then I say that again, like, you can do 100 battles then ss once on 50, ss again on 100
formal crystal
what would you do, just set it to do 500 runs so you can always be there before it ends?
glass oxide
Everyone in this servers will just throw you tomatoes
safe mist
would be a problem also if phone dont have an easy access to record, when you tab out the lw might closs
formal crystal
keep in mind no one has tried cheating this before as far as we're aware
dusk sequoia
how would you fake it then
advertising worse cards than the minimum required for consistency
formal crystal
this seems way too convoluted and hard to counter a problem that isn't actually confirmed to really practically exist
final stag
this prevents the most egregious types of cheating
viscid lichen
how would you fake it then
It's like if u screen shot the frame of the units shown, they can still screenshot the moment where the comp works only?
final stag
It's like if u screen shot the frame of the units shown, they can still screensh...
thats why you need the 30 runs requirement
final stag
that's a lot of effort
formal crystal
photoshop wouldn't be that hard honestly
safe mist
How about people just check the video , and have upvote/downvote if they think that the comp is good?
dusk sequoia
photoshop is an additional step a lot of people won't take
formal crystal
using layer masks you would be able to blend two SS in fairly easily
dusk sequoia
you can't make these things watertight
it's like lock picking
final stag
upvote/downvote is heavily based on how popular your yt channel is
dusk sequoia
it keeps honest people honest
formal crystal
but why make it that watertight when no one's even cheating runs
final stag
i make good comps but my videos don't get views so i dont get likes
safe mist
just here in #1023943644241203331
formal crystal
it will just put off more people from submitting
since it's more convoluted and demands more
final stag
then it's based on how good your comp is
people will be more likely to react to good comps
which discourages inefficient comps, which are sometimes the most usfeul for a wide variety of players
safe mist
wont be they more attracted if they have the unit
final stag
yes i.e. good comps
formal crystal
this is counterproductive, imo
you are making it way too convoluted to prove a comp just for the sake of absolutely ensuring there are no cheaters, a problem that doesn't practically exist
then you won't have any farms listed
formal crystal
and if you don't have farms listed, what is the point
grand magnet
final stag
policing yourself is hard when some people have 0 morals
grand magnet
safe mist
still we havent seen any cheaters, maybe just up the run count to 50 or more , and only the people would want to do it should do it
grand magnet
We haven’t even recorded a unworkable comp yet
stable snow
I think what I will do in future videos (apart from B3 Sagune's comp for Hifuu E9 since that is scheduled for upload), I will record the run 3 times in a video.
Run 1: Me clearing the stage with easy enough to follow instructions
Run 2: Auto replay comp of the above
Run 3: Auto rematch of Run 1 but at least 30 runs in, might speed it up a little since we'd get the gist of the run
I don't think this is something everyone is willing to do in their own way, so something else that comes to mind is if a comp has consistency issues, the comp maker in question could be asked about it and potentially the comp could be removed if it's not working for enough people.
grand magnet
How can you be so sure that all the others are “immoral”?
final stag
well what if we go back to owl's original idea (i.e. no requirement but strong recommendation)
people who want to do whatever waterproof thing does waterproof thing, can link proof in comp or whatever
people who dgaf don't do it
up to viewer
mystic atlas
i am not sure if anyone is like that self centered of a person to do this
or they're just too lucky for some reasons
dont look at me
dusk sequoia
safe mist
Make it 60 or 75, it will probably useless to edit it since its alrdy 50+ above?
grand magnet
What
formal crystal
imo it should just go back to the way it was before
grand magnet
Ye
viscid lichen
Make it 60 or 75, it will probably useless to edit it since its alrdy 50+ above?
The rewards numbers:
formal crystal
keep the 200 needed on screenshots and do away with how many runs are needed to be there. that worked perfectly fine up until it was decided that suddenly we need limits
final stag
display comps following strict consistency requirements above comps that dont
grand magnet
150 consistent runs per comp + a video proving that it can work, end of the story. Has been working since the whole comp submitting thingy started
dusk sequoia
so yeah
basically, let the viewer decide and give them an avenue to view the evidence themselves
if you don't mind sussy Minimum-run spam? great
if you want a 150 run overnight megaowhale screenshot, cool
but most importantly
final stag
i still think it'd be nice for people who don't want to think too much to display somehow what level of consistency the comp submitted uses
dusk sequoia
"i love minz and i dont want to force him to go through 150 screenshots?" uhh set a minimum pls
grand magnet
display comps following strict consistency requirements above comps that dont
We’re still displaying cheaper comp first
And I think it’s fine
final stag
for example as i said isolating the less strict comps into a separate section
so people have a heads up at least
if you just link the consistency in the description of a youtube video that's a lot of work for a lot of viewers
stable snow
I suppose another idea that sprung to my mind is a rating system on gamepress for comps, could either be thumbs up for helpful comp (with/without thumbs down option) or a 5 star system which can help people know what comps to trust and what not to trust for consistency
final stag
but again, not all comps will be used
many comps will remain at 0* particularly the ones which are expensive
stable snow
Was this comp helpful? Yes/No
Something like that maybe?
viscid lichen
I suppose another idea that sprung to my mind is a rating system on gamepress fo...
this will mainly be biased honestly 
final stag
that's way easier than photoshopping 7 clear screens
stable snow
also it's way too easy to cheat that system
I suppose maybe
final stag
just install nordvpn ™️ and get gaming
dusk sequoia
that requires effort thats beyond most people
stable snow
Just an idea I wanted to share but understandable if it's possible to abuse
dusk sequoia
as is image manipulation
grand magnet
I mean, can we just go back to how it’s used to be
final stag
is it sus? do people just not want to look at it?
dusk sequoia
how watertight do you want this to be
the cost is the barrier to entry for comp makers
final stag
i don't see the harm in separating comps visibly on gp depending on how much consistency they've been proven to have
dusk sequoia
it's a fine balans
and the balans can be augmented by additional systems
grand magnet
Seems workable -> 150 ss + video -> okay
final stag
even something like "1k runs done +/ 500 runs done + / 200 runs done +" separation helps
formal crystal
i think having indicators of consistency would be decent i suppose, just depends on how you go about it
i still think that farms should probably be listed in order from cheapest to least, but have some extra indicator on the side that indicates the level of consistency that was shown for the submission
final stag
i don't want anything too obnoxious
i just want cheap - expensive sp wise as before, green/yellow/red banner for the comp depending on consistency
stable snow
i still think that farms should probably be listed in order from cheapest to lea...
Yeah this sounds good imo
final stag
by comp banner i mean this
it would also add some color to the page which might be nice 
dusk sequoia
i still think that farms should probably be listed in order from cheapest to lea...
this pleases the owl
grand magnet
That would be a bit too much job for Minz isn’t it
dusk sequoia
stable snow
But yeah I would personally have no issue with going the extra mile to prove my comp's consistency with auto rematch stuff
Even if that isn't required
final stag
~~That would be a bit too much job for Minz isn’t it~~
umm
the red/yellow/green banner things have been done before
dusk sequoia
inb4 minz breaks from having to tally min-run spam
final stag
obviously i'm not minz so i dont know for sure but i presume it shouldn't be too hard
dusk sequoia
what about the bare minimum of:
-at least one 30-run min ss
-the rest can be as low as 10 or 15 spam
?
viscid lichen
what about the bare minimum of:
-at least one 30-run min ss
-the rest can be as...
If at least one then make it 50?
dusk sequoia
again, minz does have to tally up every single comp up to the total run requirement
final stag
how's it going <:chon:884273085484769291>
how would you feel about indicating how much proof a comp has had by changing the blue banner that expands the comp into red/yellow/green based on consistency shown
i.e. it's up to the comp creator to decide what they want to do but it's easy for the viewers to see which comps are more solid and trustable
formal crystal
what about the bare minimum of:
-at least one 30-run min ss
-the rest can be as...
this slightly defeats the point imo, it should just all be any count but still be 200 needed. that's my opinion
spice helm
Too much work,
formal crystal
but another point:
spice helm
Let me tell this now, the accordion I use is pre-set
final stag
rip
spice helm
you cannot change its color
final stag
huh
formal crystal
i am wondering how would it actually apply in practice. because, when it comes to screenshots at least, as we've been arguing they're just too easy to fake so anything with just screenshots would automatically be the lowest level of confirmation? that is how i see it at least
final stag
is it not just a rgb val
spice helm
unless i make a custom accordion
final stag
welp
spice helm
which will be a fucking pain
final stag
can you just put it in the comp header then
something like [1100 runs of xyz type consistency]
final stag
i am wondering how would it actually apply in practice. because, when it comes t...
screenshots that show all chars are more trustworthy
formal crystal
so we would go from screenshots to, i guess a video at the end of a stint, to video of end of all stints?
spice helm
maybe but i would like elaboration on how the system will work out
final stag
make three tiers of "consistency standards"
viscid lichen
so we would go from screenshots to, i guess a video at the end of a stint, to vi...
I would actually support this since this cant fake runs + units
though then ppl can't overnight farm, I mean like screenshot it
final stag
stable snow
Let me tell this now, the accordion I use is **pre-set**
for a moment I thought you were talking about the instrument
final stag
so for example
final stag
a comp could be titled 8P A7 Yuyuko 3T (Level 2)
spice helm
let me reread the thing
formal crystal
1) the stuff we have rn with no run requirement
2) the stuff we have rn with run...
so we would do away with videos? i mean videos are much much harder to fake than any screenshot so any video would be automatically superior to even the third tier here i feel
final stag
and you can also add how many runs a comp has done in total
8P A7 Yuyuko 3T (1100 runs Level 2)
final stag
so we would do away with videos? i mean videos are much much harder to fake than...
tier 3
spice helm
Alright so
final stag
i'm just suggesting stuff
doesn't have to be final
just how it would work in my mind
spice helm
what solver proposed regarding formatting is plausible on my end but i will need concrete information on how the system will work
also yeah whatever majority decides will be the go-to
formal crystal
imo tiers could be:
1 - anything that is end screen SS
2 - victory screen SS, with a decent amount of runs
3 - a video of the victory/end screen with a decent amount of runs
final stag
wdym concrete information, like how the "tiers" of consistency would work?
formal crystal
maybe this?
spice helm
i will ask questions though
spice helm
wdym concrete information, like how the "tiers" of consistency would work?
something like that yeah
formal crystal
it seems to make the most sense to me so far but idk
final stag
imo tiers could be:
1 - anything that is end screen SS
2 - victory screen SS, w...
yeah this is good
spice helm
because this means that it will be tracked properly too
final stag
but i like the run req as a criteria
spice helm
which means more work :/
final stag
hmm
spice helm
not much of a problem if i get help tho
stable snow
I hope this doesn't become too much for Minz to handle
final stag
yeah that could be an issue with this system
spice helm
gonna be back here again in an hour to check things
final stag
maybe only do posts for uptiers
formal crystal
well my opinion is still that this seems like too much to bother with and it should be simpler but i'm saying what i would think would be better in a new system with tier requirements
stable snow
<a:hypernod:666308607733661726> gonna be back here again in an hour to check thi...
Take it easy Minz 
final stag
like if you're doing tier 1 consistency to tier 2 then post 1 message with everything in that message
so it's maximum 3 messages per person
formal crystal
like i could understand if we had an actual cheater problem but we haven't
and its been pretty lenient for a long time
dusk sequoia
it's not tho
i can't errand camp with the current restrictions
even though i just overnight but lets pretend i errand camp 24/7
final stag
i count 27 comps for vsc3 reimu
formal crystal
i can't errand camp with the current restrictions
even though i just overnight b...
i mean to say that these restrictions of min nº per SS are pretty recent aren't they?
final stag
under a 3 tier system this is 81 messages maximum for minz to keep track of over a span of 2 weeks for vs
so /day 6ish
dusk sequoia
i mean to say that these restrictions of min nº per SS are pretty recent aren't ...
one of the impetus for this discussion was the minimum was too high because errand camping
formal crystal
before that it was just, any amount of SS with 200 runs as far as i'm aware at least...
final stag
if minz updates every 3 days, this is 20ish messages to get through each time which i think is reasonable? idk
formal crystal
one of the impetus for this discussion was the minimum was too high because erra...
yes. i think you're missing my point
final stag
and you could prevent idle chatting/weird random things in the comp submission forum to streamline the messages further
formal crystal
minz only implemented the min nº of runs per screenshot recently. is this not correct?
final stag
also ren, this change doesn't just fix the cheater issue, it also is a qol update for comp viewers since they can more easily tell/trust a good solid comp
idk i think minus the extra hassle for minz (which is obviously still a factor) this change is strictly beneficial
formal crystal
while that sounds good on paper, i think people are ultimately just going to try what works out of the options available, which is likely to be a pretty limited amount of the comps
and there won't be that much consideration of "this comp is more trustworthy than that"
final stag
i've had people dm me about how consistent a certain card sub is or whatever
dusk sequoia
final stag
so yeah
dusk sequoia
how come no one dms me
dusk sequoia
no
not anyways
adding to ren
the comps people will most likely go to
are the midrange comps
there are hyperwhale comps like mine
and the 83p monstrosities
most people will ignore those
final stag
what does this have to do with the discussion on hand
dusk sequoia
well
we need the feedback of the other side
how do they look for comps
do they find issue with the sytstem
final stag
can we do a test run of this idea
dusk sequoia
and do they find issue when they replicate
final stag
and then minz can see how much of a hassle it is for him and comp viewers can provide feedback
formal crystal
conclusion: no one watches comps anyway
final stag
can even stop midway if it's clear its a bad idea
formal crystal
dusk sequoia
v0v i get zero feedback on my comps
but apparently you do so there are people who do browse for net-comps
and i do see said net-comps being passed around in strategy to anyone who is looking as well
anyway, i agree with ideas needing testing
final stag
well, you use like 3k dollars worth of units every comp
dusk sequoia
if relaxing restrictions creates a large "consistency" issue then maybe it isn't the best idea
that feedback will need to come from people seeking comps
formal crystal
i'll also add that CQ is a limited time and the tighter the requirements the less likely people are to get their comps in while they still matter
final stag
yeah which is why in this system you can still submit regular requirement comps
so everyone in favor of giving this idea a test run?
dusk sequoia
v0v the impetus was trying to relax it
so the discussion is how to relax it while keeping the integrity and barrier to entry sufficiently low
anyway there's nothing wrong with doing the bare minimum effort and lowering the min-runs to 30 for a CQ or two and seeing how every side feels (Minz, Comp makers, comp users)
formal crystal
the way i see it at least is that screenshots are of some value because it proves a person is willing to put time into the stage and screenshotting to begin with, so screenshots are definitely a gauge of a certain level of trustworthiness (basically i am saying that just because screenshots can be faked doesn't mean that they are 100% pointless because there's a difference between uploading something with the most minimal effort vs putting some effort into it, even if that effort may have actually theoretically been to cheat)
as for what numbers you would want to run the test on, i think i've said enough on that so far so my opinion on that should be pretty clear. it wouldn't be that much of a test, it would just be going to the way things were before + you add a couple extra levels of trust factor when meeting certain criteria (instead of just lowering the extra bar set recently but still keeping said bar there which imo kind of defeats the point)
i think that has potential to more or less satisfy every side of the discussion
though it is still more work in the end
spice helm
My take is to not increase my workload by much but that's kinda vague and hard to gauge since I do self verification via watching the video, trying to figure out how it works, and potentially asking the comp maker if there's something I do not understand.
Some of these methods are not done either at times due to time constraints so it's kinda hard to evaluate at times and causes delays
I'll let this post be alive until an announcement of a new EX arrives
which is potentially on February
by then, i'll implement what the majority of the current community thinks is the best
edgy igloo
one thing i noticed that wasnt brought up: mid session screenshots can totally work, because they also show date and time at the bottom.
if someone screenshots the same session at 50 and 100 we can see on date and time that they were taken in the same session. on top of that we have the vid, wich shows the rough lenght of an individual run, so the rest is simple math.
formal crystal
well that would require 2 SS of the same run which would require camping your comp and even then it could still be faked
most people right now prove their farms by simply setting the run count and leaving to do something else
crude heart
My personal request is for comp makers to include a step by step with submitted runs, alongside recommended story cards. They're a great reference for players looking for comps, and saves time during comp checks.
spice helm
I don't include that anymore on EX stages because they're too damn long for me to work with
it leads me to allocate at least 1-2 hours to work on like 3 videos to write transcripts using the custom format
formal crystal
videos should include most of all that by default
99% of the time people are working with pink heart 3 skill (rank 4, rank 5 is very unlikely to be a deciding factor in anything) MLB comps especially when it comes to CQ, besides a lot of the time people don't actually test if it would theoretically or empirically work at purple or not
spice helm
most people right now prove their farms by simply setting the run count and leav...
Won't these be faked as well though
Quite literally, if you're that desperate, you can fake your way
But there's been no incidents of that as of yet and I do not wish to have it tbh
formal crystal
anything that is an SS can be faked one way or another yeah
crude heart
it leads me to allocate at least 1-2 hours to work on like 3 videos to write tra...
I'd like to avoid writing them myself as well, yes. I do find that verifying a comp is much easier when there's a written guide to check against. Several comps have been submitted in the past which theoretically should have worked consistently but didn't. I'm hoping that a written guide provided by comp authors would also make it easier to simply import onto the site.
Ultimately you can decide how best to move forward with this. I submitted that request as someone who relies on comps myself, and has had a lot of trouble with videos that don't showcase the run very well.
spice helm
Well I do have plans on implementing written text transcripts since it also helps me when recalling a comp. Maybe I'll include them if people are willing to write them so I can just copy and paste it easily
If they don't want to, I can write it for them if I have the time. Otherwise, it'll just be a video shown
formal crystal
honestly all of this sounds like excessive work for you when you already seem busy often
videos alone like how its been lately are perfectly fine imo
spice helm
If I am to be compensated well, I don't mind
formal crystal
ideally you start the video with the party, then you show the cards, move over to incense tab and check that real quick, then start the stage and go through the motions
doesn't need any more than that
maybe that shoud be listed somewhere as the recommended video layout
dusk sequoia
checks owls videos
shouldnt everyone be doing that
i swear when someone just starts the run without any context
spice helm
I've been doing it since I started making comps 
fresh moss
My personal request is for comp makers to include a step by step with submitted ...
THIS!!! I don't know if any of you guys ever wrote the script off of just a video. Let me just tell you that it's a heckin pain to do it when the compmaker goes back and forth multiple times and has not provided anything else but the video. No showing of the cards pre-stage or telling the step by step.
spice helm
THIS!!! I don't know if any of you guys ever wrote the script off of just a vide...
I personally wrote these from the past EX stages but stopped due to heavy time constraints
dusk sequoia
i do all of the above
except the step by step
which is in owl scratch notation
spice helm
If they provided step by step in description or comments or in the submission itself, that literally saves me
dusk sequoia
but they're all in the video + description
formal crystal
the video should also be done at a reasonable speed
dusk sequoia
the vids
formal crystal
not like trying to shit out every skill and graze the fastest possible
formal crystal
and also shouldn't have much if any going back and forth to be as clear as possible
like
opening your skills then closing your skills
just do everything right
spice helm
oh yeah i will remove the reservation stuff
dusk sequoia
spice helm
post it when you're done with it basically 💀
spice helm
applies to clear and farm
fresh moss
i had to do with some ele ex comps to see if they're consistent and some of them were a pain to deal with since the maker just decided "oh i wanted sc2 not sc1 of the first char"
azure herald
When recording comps it takes me a long time to make sure I do everything in a row properly especially when the comp gets convoluted but I still do it because it looks nice
Mostly just skill issue on my part but yeah it would be cool if every video was like that
spice helm
anyway it's kinda derailing rn, back to the original topic
but the feedback will be implemented as requirements
👍
dusk sequoia
i think requiring a step-by-step will also help with the comp maker's video
since it's basically a script they wrote and can then follow
azure herald
Well most of my ex stage comps are pretty long so I really dont like wasting errands when consistency testing so I would like it to require less
I understand why it is the way it is though
fresh moss
regarding the minimum runs screenshots, i'm sure there will always be people happy to provide screenshots to proof if a comp is consistent or not. those can be done overnight so errands won't be a problem
it'd be up to the compmaker to decide if those people are trustworthy or not
azure herald
Community comp testers
fresh moss
it's not like there's a time limit in which the comps have to be provided or it's too late, most cq events go for like 2 weeks, that'd be enoough time to find people, give them the script and let them test the comp, each will provide screenshots towards the minimum run count and voila
formal crystal
regarding the minimum runs screenshots, i'm sure there will always be people hap...
you see the thing is that that isn't actually true
when you overnight, you do waste errands
fresh moss
not exactly when you put all 3 limited errands in
formal crystal
fresh moss
it's a thing to save them yes
azure herald
But my 30 minute cube errands
fresh moss
be they just wood errands or all 3 being cube errands
formal crystal
yeah but you see that's not the optimal play ig
fresh moss
how so?
formal crystal
you'd rather run daily errands
fresh moss
you said you don't want to waste errands, there you have an option not to waste them
formal crystal
if you can help it
if you happen to have 3 desirable limiteds, sure
but most of the time it's not like that
anyway this is kind of derailing
azure herald
Yeah idk I just dont like having to set aside time specifically for consistency testing instead of just doing it gradually
formal crystal
what dood said
right now it's a supposed trust issue but there hasn't been incidents of actual cheaters
fresh moss
idk, one of the biggest yet easiest to counter argument of you guys is that you don't want to have longer session screenshots because you don't want to waste errands
azure herald
If the consistency testing goes for longer than 2 hours it fundamentally wastes errands
And typically 2 hours is 40 runs for my comps
spice helm
that's why people told me to reduce it from 50 to 30
fresh moss
as i said, you put all 3 limited errands you have active, then overnight farm
formal crystal
that implies that setting all your limited errands is the optimal errand strategy, which it isn't
fresh moss
i'm pretty sure you sleepp for more than just 2 hours right?
viscid lichen
as i said, you put all 3 limited errands you have active, then overnight farm
We still have day farm
formal crystal
i'm not going to sacrifice my daily errand cubes just to verify the farm
azure herald
With my sleep schedule usually I wake up randomly to do errands
azure herald
30 does seem more fair as well
fresh moss
also as i said earlier, there will most probably always be people happy to help in proving the consistency
formal crystal
30 leaves more likely to have some gaps but i still don't really see the point in the limit in the end as we've been fine without it up to when it was suddenly implemented due to supposed concerns of people cheating the system
besides
from a pure consistency standpoint
1 in 30-50 fails is actually not good, and that's all you are "proving"
spice helm
that's why people told me to reduce it from 50 to 30
which i did plan to implement on new EX stages but here we are to discuss regarding removing the per screenshot restriction or keep it but lower the rate.... or have other ideas because it's being streamlined over the fact that runs can be faked (hence why the restriction was placed in the first place) but it's also "irrelevant" due to the same reasoning + characters not being shown when the auto rematch sequence ended
either way, it seems that the concern here extends further to errands now
and so far, no actual idea has taken its place yet
(aside from feedbacks about having video format and text transcripts, which does contribute to trustworthiness of the farm comp made)
azure herald
How about just one screenshot needing to reach a threshold while the others have a lower requirement. This is also pretty flawed but at least it shows that it can go on for that long without extreme rng most of the time
azure herald
It would likely still need one allocated overnight to reach the requiement but the rest would be more easily done just throughout the day
Yeah something like that
spice helm
I'll add that to the list of suggestions then since it seems simple enough to comprehend
formal crystal
if i could verify everything with 10-20 runs i'd have 4-5 farms up
safe mist
this errand issue makes comp submitting a big issue
azure herald
Personally I'd just vote for it being lowered in general
spice helm
if people are willing to sacrifice errands, i could use my personal standard of reaching 500 runs total in every comp in any content
formal crystal
2x100 or 10x20 is still the same thing
fresh moss
this errand issue makes comp submitting a big issue
and as i said, you can easily circumvent that
safe mist
dont know why errands are needed to submit comps
spice helm
2x100 or 10x20 is still the same thing
no you can prove a lot in the former
the chance of having inconsistency within 100 runs is considerable
depending on the comp
formal crystal
let me clarify, it is the same thing from the standpoint of a person not cheating
it's still 200 runs in both cases
fresh moss
2x100 or 10x20 is still the same thing
the problem with the 10x20 was for example, if you have a fail, you just throw it out and make another one
which isn't easily done with a 100 run ss
spice helm
yes but the chance of inconsistency being spotted on 2 screenshots, 100 runs is considerable enough
the cheating argument is quite invalid if we factor in the text transcripts and the video formats
spice helm
the problem with the 10x20 was for example, if you have a fail, you just throw i...
i will use this reasoning
with 10x20, you're more capable of cheesing consistency runs
fresh moss
ok let me give you an example,
i'm one of those guys that wants to troll people by making them think a comp is consistent while it's not
now i provide you 10 ss of 20 runs each, i won't tell you anything else
will you know that i'm trolling or not?
formal crystal
we already know that
my point is that it's not that relevant as we have no cases of cheating
and you can cheat with photoshopping anyway
fresh moss
you may not now but the possibility is there
spice helm
because there's been cases of low run count submissions?
formal crystal
i can do a 50 runs of whatever
spice helm
in multiple screenshots
fresh moss
because people were submitting 3 to 15 runs times 10 in one huge messgae
spice helm
the original reasoning on why 50 runs restriction per screenshot was implemented is to prevent cheesing the consistency runs
formal crystal
people aren't cheating
spice helm
not really cheating via editing
formal crystal
let me restate this
fresh moss
yes but how do you want to prove they aren't cheating when you only get this low amount of runs
formal crystal
there was no restrictions before. people uploaded consistency runs (most of them fairly high run count probably not because they want to prove it harder but because they just overnight)
spice helm
you can also implement the same reasoning for high run counts, it could be "faked"
formal crystal
then someone uploads a few more split runs across multiple SS
suddenly we deem it to be a problem?
i just don't see the concern unless it was a cheater for real
it just seems like people getting scared over an issue that doesn't exist in the practical sense
fresh moss
you need to realize that minz has to go through everything
the more ss there are, the higher the workload for him
formal crystal
cryo pls
spice helm
Well i can put the suggestion of removing runs restriction I guess
formal crystal
it's not hard to add up numbers across a few different images
spice helm
there's two suggestions now
viscid lichen
Though if someone uses the false submitted comp then they can report it?
spice helm
it's not hard to add up numbers across a few different images
you have to realize i work alone on this and i check per screenshot + the video
but yeah if someone does send false submissions, they will be ignored and if repeatedly done, be blocked from posting comps
formal crystal
i would think literally everything else that isn't counting the runs (which takes like 20 seconds at most with a calculator) has a higher workload
formal crystal
what would i be helping with exactly
because i know nothing about coding/webpages and that sort of thing fyi
spice helm
I have verification steps that I follow but this is already derailing so I will put them after this discussion is over
Let me sort through the suggestions given here for now and pin it
To be implemented in future EX stages and so on...
NOTE: Everything in here will be strictly followed, otherwise, you will be ignored.
A video format detailing characters used, the story cards used, friendship level, limit breaks, character level, enhancement level (including Superior Enhancement if applicable)
A step by step procedure in a form of text for transcription purposes. This can be in the video's description, comments, or within the submission post itself.
False submissions will be subject to deletion of post and repeated action will result to a submission block.
A threshold based system where there is a set bar to accomplish first and after which, you can fragmentize the remaining runs.
Example:
If you have further suggestions, this post will be open until a new EX stage comes out so feel free to do so
azure herald
Does the video itself have to include the card and friend requirements or can that be in the description too?
azure herald
Damn now I have to learn basic video editing this is tragic
safe mist
idk if its even doable in just a phone ..
azure herald
The tablet I use should have some sort of feature for that but yeah itll probably have to be separate clips for me because I dont really want to have to record an extra minute before actually starting the run video every time I restart
safe mist
Damn now I have to learn basic video editing this is tragic
also lol just show the chars stats at the video
azure herald
I'll record that separately yes
safe mist
u can just do it in one go..
azure herald
It takes me like 20 tries to get a recording properly done with no mistakes so no not really
formal crystal
Does the video itself have to include the card and friend requirements or can th...
this would just entail you goign to your party and going over the cards and incense basically
no actual video editing needed
azure herald
Yeah I've seen what it's like
But I mean I have to put together the stats and stuff and also the successful run where i dont do anything accidentally
safe mist
cant u just proofrun it before making a video first? lol
grand magnet
What I did recently is that I only show stats + cards + enhance + etc after a successful run where I don’t do anything accidentally
safe mist
thats what i always do
azure herald
Well yeah I dont usually start recording until I get like half the consistency testing done anyway
grand magnet
So I record until I have done everything successful, include all the requirement, cut out the unnecessary parts
safe mist
proofrun > take a video of the run > convert to text
grand magnet
Easy
safe mist
azure herald
Its skill issue on my part that I cant do everything properly on the first try
azure herald
I'll press a button twice or something or open the skill menu for no reason
safe mist
i just write on the note immediately what i did do
grand magnet
I post 4T Phantasm everyday like that lol
azure herald
Yeah the requirement really isnt a problem I can just paste it onto the start of the video I'm just being hyperbolic with the minimal effort I have to put in to do that
azure herald
i just write on the note immediately what i did do
Yeah that does make sense I kinda just do everything off of memory then transcribe it when the video is done
edgy igloo
things a good submission video should contain (imo):
video itself:
friend selection screen:
• story cards
• friendship level
• rank and awakening
• skill level
• s-woods, if needed
enter showcase via a replay, stop replay and enter manual play before turn 1 starts
skill use:
description:
agree?
disagree?
questions?
things to add?
fresh moss
you really want the compmakers work hard for their fame
i don't disagree with that though
all i could add to that is that saving a replay when you did the order exactly as before shouldn't be possible, at least that's what i noticed, the button will be just greyed out
azure herald
True but I'm very rarely able to get it exactly as I did before most of the time
Overall I agree except for the replaying again after the manual showcase
spice helm
that's quite a read
stable snow
It does sound like a hell of a lot of work for Minz to do, so I hope this doesn't become too much for him.
I hope my videos were clear enough, but I am okay with trying to make them clearer if necessary. I think I still want to add a little bit of an auto rematch session that is at least 30 runs in to really hit home the consistency, but I do hope things will go smoothly in terms of future submissions. Thank you for all your hard work Minz, it's always appreciated.
spark socket
**To be implemented in future EX stages and so on...**
NOTE: Everything in here...
Do these only apply for EX stage farms and not main story farms?
vagrant mortar
"My personal request is for comp makers to include a step by step with submitted runs"
^ok you won't be seeing any submissions from me ever again then lol (semi joking, but it seems kinda annoying. if we're going to add task for comp makers, better to have them write a sentence on the steps of the comp which they actively adjusted/are tighter requirements/sus dmg and how they addressed those things, imo)
anyway re topic of the thread, i feel 30 runs/screen min is fine, while we can never entirely get rid of the possibly-non-existent/possibly-existent-but-infrequent weird guys who send fake pics, 30 runs/screen still sounds reasonable to me (as a degen errand camper) since it easily accommodates 2 hr errands and even 1 hr ones if your comp is fast
practically you lose maybe 1 errand 'cycle' if you get down to spamming the 30 min/1 hr ones later in the day if it's 30 runs/screen compared to having no restriction (for the majority of players, this isn't a problem since they aren't degen errand campers anyway)
vagrant mortar
things a good submission video should contain (imo):
video itself:
- friend se...
too much work for comp maker to bother with lol
i think we have to remember most ppl make comps for aim of helping other players (or showcasing use of certain characters), so the possibly-existent-but-infrequent sus/failed comp senders are a very small minority (have we even found more than 2 definitive cases of this happening in all time community submissions existed? idk)
and that ppl who make own comps, prove them and upload video are minority*, so it seems weird to me to reduce this small number of contributors even more by imposing additional vid-making restrictions
*hard to say for glob, but impression i get from comments on my vids is that, from the ppl who do search comps for stuff, most of them do not actively make own comps, or make only minor adjustments anyway - the ppl who make base templates/own comps is very low
*while not technically relevant to us, in jp ver, the players who make the most optimized comps are typically NOT that active on social media and definitely NOT among the more viewed jp thlw youtube channels (i see a lot of lmao 12p unit x 6 clears with acc/p not consistent. Te overall impression i get is that on either glob or jp, there are not that many players who put high effort into making own comps -> adjusting them to be better -> uploading them)
edgy igloo
too much work for comp maker to bother with lol
i said good. the bar for acceptable is lower.
should have said that too tbf.
spice helm
Do these only apply for EX stage farms and not main story farms?
This change will apply for new EX stage farm comps for now because I have no time to think about main story stuff currently
dusk sequoia
we could just not change anything and have errand camples give up on the extra coob they would earn. It's only one cycle down the drain for a single day.
dusk sequoia
also, the argument for having written steps is because of the useless shitvids that speedrun and/or makes 50 mistakes mid-run.
side note, Back tracking and double checking skills excessively etc. count as mistakes. It's a performance after all. You have your script, memorized or written or both, you do you. Now it's a matter of making sure to convey the comp well enough to be useful.
Basically, the better you convey the content, the less painful it will be for others to follow.
Having steps noted down will make it, on average, easier for comp makers to make videos with better pacing and with minimal errors. Same, but to a lesser degree, for people looking at comps.
And honestly, it's not that hard to write down steps. Make your own notation. Use as much abbreviation/shorthanding as you want. These terms come naturally to most of us.
Extras like notes or substitution is merely optional.
For example I simply farm while I write the steps down. When it comes time for the video, I rehearse a couple of times and make any corrections. After recording the run (using said notes to help me), I just copy paste my notes onto the description.
If you see my descriptions it is basically:
I do want to note Video quality/ adding notes etc is pretty separated from the topic of minimum runs/ss so that can be addressed at another time or never.
Anyway, 30-spam is fine im just afraid for minz
formal crystal
we could just not change anything and have errand camples give up on the extra c...
i'll say again that i don't see the benefits of having this kind of minimum run count. i'm not seeing how the workload is increased considerably just because someone posted a bunch of 10-20 vs someone posting 30. and again, if it's to make things "harder to fake" to counter cheaters that haven't been proven to exist and can cheat easier in other methods, let me remind that a 1 in 30 fail rate isn't actually good and that is all that you are actually proving at best
i don't think written step-by-step is very necessary, though it is welcome regardless. having a good video is the most important. it doesn't need to be quite as convoluted as what fivetales said though, imo
dusk sequoia
what's your min count then?
1 run? and total 150?
because i will be sending a fumo to minz as an apology for what im going to do to him if that's the case.
a step by step is such a minor thing to do. the key point is a good video and having a script can only help.
formal crystal
1 run? and total 150?
let's be real here, no one is going to send 200 SS of single runs
formal crystal
even the most attentive people are going to probably do about 10 for all at worst
raven cedar
I would say just provide ss of 30 run each, video of run and saved rerun of that. Not everyone can just ignore sc from errand nor have times to do 200 runs
formal crystal
what do you mean with "i will"
dusk sequoia
i dont even see the errand angle being an issue
its just 1 to 2 sc "lost" if you're attentive
formal crystal
to begin with probably a majority of people are already sending higher run counts
raven cedar
And nitro discord to for big upload
dusk sequoia
if you're attentive you have 3hr 59 min to handle errand cycles during limited errand spawns
formal crystal
the removed run count per SS requirement would just be accomodating what is most likely a minority that is hampered by this regardless and wants to send their comps
dusk sequoia
and if you go for the 30min coobs, its literally
just a single day
yes ren you hit the nail
this proposed change is for a minority of people
raven cedar
Well not many people want to ignore the sc gain from errand even if its only 1 or 2
formal crystal
i don't know what distinction you're making about this so-called "honesty" here
raven cedar
If you can
dusk sequoia
a lot of us will drop a fat 100+ run count screenshot
formal crystal
honesty necessarily implies being truthful or not
raven cedar
You shouldnt force other people to do it
formal crystal
what nyx said
why even implement this at all
it already wasn't affecting anything so why screw over hardcore erranders at all?
in the name of some honesty that wasn't ever a problem before?
dusk sequoia
because its safe to assume everyone is honest. Hypothetical scenario: if they have a fail in their runs. they have to fix it if its a high run requirement. otherwise they might (key word might) get funny ideas
formal crystal
so again, the problem is one of supposed cheating
which can be done easier than bashing head against the wall with an inconsistent comp
dusk sequoia
yes but not a problem of malicious cheaters but the avenue of potential dishonesty
formal crystal
i think anyone with integrity is going to redo their 200 if their comp has a problem
it's not a "runs per SS" problem
raven cedar
What i say is just makes place to report the inconsistency for x comps in the discord or in the gp
formal crystal
this isn't such a relevant and actually existent issue that you need to establish limits for it when no problems had occurred thus far with such cases
look at it this way
someone doing low runs per SS could theoretically redo their run stints to ignore a fail...
and someone having to do high stints could theoretically photoshop their SS or just use a different comp
there isn't that much of a difference
in both cases you have to lack integrity to cheat the system
dusk sequoia
well, 150 screenshots it is
formal crystal
what do you mean
dusk sequoia
we're going to want some minimum. that's all im saying.
formal crystal
you do understand, that there was no run count restriction for a very long time in the past, and that any attempt to maliciously prove a problem that has never existed because you aren't getting things your way is definitely a "you" problem and does not in any way prove you need a restriction, right?
dusk sequoia
yes, but having some structure doesn't hurt.
formal crystal
any such persons would be dealt with individually as a specific case of trolling the system, as no one would actually seriously need to do 200 single runs
dusk sequoia
yes, of course, but i want some structure to this instead of wild westing it. This is more the case of browsing through the submissions and not rolling one's eyes at a spam of low runs.
formal crystal
but where exactly is the problem. how exactly is having more screenshots a significant issue? again i don't see how workload is significantly affected when a minority of people are already going to be the ones falling under this umbrella
dusk sequoia
i and i think gamepress would like a level of quality to comps. Being a bit systematic can help. Obviously people are finding an issue with the current system being t
if you dont see it then fair enough
we dont have to permanently shift
we can try your idea and see what happens
im open to it
no restrictions for a cq or two
if it works thats great
sounds fair to you?
formal crystal
the only thing you need the screenshots for is to have 200 runs. a calculator on hand and 30 seconds at most verifies this to be the case regardless of a high amount of screenshots. considering most people aren't going to be like this, i do not think this at all increases workload to a relevant extent. that is the way i see it
formal crystal
i mean sure
we are just going back to how it was before...
and there was no issues before
so i don't see why there would suddenly be issues now
there was never any "issue" as far as i'm aware. there was only concern for potentially cheating the system which led to such an implementation
and i don't think there is anything inherently wrong about that
rules and laws are created as you start seeing the flaws around you
dusk sequoia
yeah you nailed it i think. the potential is there, but most folks are good. Is x,y,z restriction really necessary
formal crystal
it's good to be aware. but it's also good to see if the concern is anything more than just a theory and if the counter to said concern is actually effective
dusk sequoia
im more of a "yes" preventative guy so thats why i favor that approach, even if it often turns out unnecessary
engineer issues i guess
formal crystal
if anything
all this talk technically has the potential to give people ideas to try something malicious just for the heck of it. kind of paradoxical, really. so i wouldn't be that surprised someone tried something funny in the near future just because of all this attention now
even though there has been no problems up to this point
raven cedar
well technically some people like me just want lower count for the SS, im fine if its dropped to 30, 50 is too long now especially with how my phone getting nerfed
safe mist
am pretty sure back then people run 100x on the first moon ex to proof comp when it first came , it only came like this when the #1023943644241203331 was created
most ss back then are 100+
if im not mistaken
it goes till vs E9 remi
spice helm
POLL
Hello everyone, it is time for a poll regarding the two suggestions. Here are the options:
1️⃣ A threshold based system where there is a set bar to accomplish first and after which, you can fragmentize the remaining runs.
Example:
2️⃣ Removal of the current consistency run threshold per screenshot
This poll will end at <t:1675350000:f>
This poll has ended, 1st option has been chosen by the majority winning in 13-10.
dusk sequoia
tl;dr yes threshold vs no threshold right?
with a yes threshold leading to a potential 2nd round of voting?
spice helm
**tl;dr** yes threshold vs no threshold right?
with a yes threshold leading to a...
It's pretty much that yes, although this one revamps the current system
There is no 2nd round of voting
dusk sequoia
oh
spice helm
So let's say that the total consistency runs required for Wood EX is 200 runs
your first screenshot should have, say, 100 runs since that is what is decided upon
so you will be left with 100 more runs to do right?
spice helm
Now, that can be "fragmented" into smaller run sets (e.g. 20-20-20-20-20)
urban wolf
This applies all of the EX, not just Wood?
spice helm
yeah but 1 requires us to bicker about
Hmm fair
dusk sequoia
hmm i always thought all you needed was one of the min-run ss
and the rest could be anything 
spice helm
So do you think a 2nd round of voting is required
dusk sequoia
i (we?) dont want one?
spice helm
hmm i always thought all you needed was one of the min-run ss
and the rest could...
well yeah, minimum threshold
then do whatever after that
100 as minimum is what i think is the best since it should encompass any consistency issues that may occur
dusk sequoia
i thought the main criticism to current system was the extra errand sets lost achieving a high min (or requiring overnighting)
spice helm
Yes and it was suggested based on that by someone
No one else tried to suggest after the two so
There's not much I can do about that no?
dusk sequoia
(un)fortunately, neither really affects me so my vote is up for purchase
young granite
For 100 runs, 2 min comp will take about 3.3 hours
2.5 min comp will take over 4 hours
3 min comp will take 5 hours
rigid cove
total consistency for any main story is 500
spice helm
main story before interlude*
due to the difficulty spike of interlude and beyond, there has been a compromise of decreasing the total consistency runs to 200(?)
rigid cove
then screenshots should be (45-250-5-100-25-25-25-25) then?
rigid cove
due to the difficulty spike of interlude and beyond, there has been a compromise...
hmmmm
safe mist
mainstory should be a solid 100-100-100-100-100 tho
safe mist
ye
spice helm
it'll be bad if the system change is implemented all throughout and changes are not as accepted
dusk sequoia
i recommend a re-evaluation after wood ex to see if everyone is more/less happy
spice helm
i recommend a re-evaluation after wood ex to see if everyone is more/less happy
I plan to do so
spice helm
Poll has ended! It seems that the 1st option won by majority vote. I will be accounting this now for Wood EX
plush jay
Sun Ex next!
spice helm
btw what about those people who do reserves
Reserves will not be allowed
low sorrel
Poll has ended! It seems that the 1st option won by majority vote. I will be acc...
What are the total run requirements for main story farms as of now? And for them do we still have to follow the threshold of 1/2-of-total-runs for it to be considered consistent?
From my inspections from event farms most shorter (like 5t solo) farms autostops at ~91 runs before friends gets exhausted. Personally i strongly dislike the process of levelling friendships back up from purple, or the existence of purple units in my box at all; do i have to risk purpling them, or are there ways for this issue to be compromised?
safe mist
What are the total run requirements for main story farms as of now? And for them...
this is only for cq and element, main story is the same as always
low sorrel
this is only for cq and element, main story is the same as always
what are the rules for main story then 
sorry havent been following main story so far
safe mist
what are the rules for main story then <:SagumeCopium:988982412610523156>
sorry...
you dont need to make them purple to make a comp unless u r making a purple comp, i think it must be 75-85runs minimum per run
so u should start when your units have double spark
safe mist
i dont think that spell card is included in lw yet?
its the morality of your unit, when they are tired they do double sweat
zealous tusk
how many turns do i have to clear for story farm no purple heart?
low sorrel
im not sure what you meant
but my current 5T duo for the newest story farm goes for ~130 runs before exhaustion
but if you are asking for total run requirements,
farms no later than ubt require 500 in total while the newer ones require 200
dk if mods are going to keep the trend
raven cedar
its the morality of your unit, when they are tired they do double sweat
you should call it double star, 1st time i hear some1 call it spark
eager sorrel
Heya, i wanna share a comp but i saw this
What should i know first before i post it?
azure herald
Read the pins in each channel for Requirments
Or whichever channel you're making a comp for
eager sorrel
Alrighty, thanks
misty basalt
so, for divergent spirits still applies the 100 runs and the remaining we can fragment it right?
livid sleet
Idk exactly, but I guess that these requirements share on every stage
misty basalt
I see
spice helm
so, for divergent spirits still applies the 100 runs and the remaining we can fr...
nope
there's no restriction, it's just completing 200 total consistency runs
I feel that it would not be feasible to implement such restrictions considering that it will become weekly content.
so just the usual completion of total consistency runs is fine
short coral
I need to ask again, its been forever since I did comps
Does the recording have to show inputs? or can it be a replay as long as you have a detailed info?
safe mist
Does the recording have to show inputs? or can it be a replay as long as you hav...
it need inputs
short coral
gotcha thank
safe mist
also you need to show the stats and cards and the lobby screen /
if its ds, the ds screen also where u modify the level
short coral
what's a risk?
formal crystal
the options you have to increase level at the cost of some specific downside
