#📨・meta-help
1 messages · Page 3192 of 1
True but wata hanying wanshi gotta go
Kill Hanging please
anyone ? also SSS lilith still use 4barcelo 4 cottie ?
Phys too cringe I can't take it anymore
Well since Rosetta exist and she's not shredding in TS hanying just got extend life span
Blame kuro
Nanami sounds like the way to go then

4 Sig 4 Bathlon rn
Hanying leap when 

so who carries davinci in dark team (bianca rosetta liltih)
No Bonca she's dead
Replace with Wata SSS or R2 Amp
on both ppc and wz ?
If SS3 Bonca then she's playable in WZ otherwise dead in both
what's the deal with Bianca anyway? numbers too low?
lilith
Ngl hanying need first 
The usual 4 Sig 4 Cottie
Slow, dmg too backloaded, paywalled behind SSS
ok great so overall SSS wata or R2 amp which one is better to use ?
SSS Wata should be better if u have
All I want for her is better shred and making ts playable
For wanshi I want him to be faster
i have SSS nanami and SSS vera too
In which case she'll use 4 DV 2 Eins 2 Gloria
SSS Nana should be better
alr thanks
What memories do I put on Rosetta Arete for Dark?
So get leap like wata
except changing how her ts plays
she get leap
because rn its awful
Mine ss3 so i cant play ts so sure
Thecnicly yeah
Now how i have rose
She should fine
But i not really able to play ts before
Cuz ts is my lowest invested team was
Ss0 vergil is brick in a sss acc
Even dino better was nihil/fire it
Does SSS Vergil get replaced by SS Rosetta for Slash?
Donno
Try it when ts zone drop in wz/ any content which ts related
No testside yet only off ele
Is Luciq crimson wave still good or it alr fell off ?
Or training dummy
Ty, will try if I'm still in Hero when there's Slash
Fell off
If u not had atleast sss r3 and her cub.
Better to solo nanami if u get her sig and a dlt to her
Instead swap to ss0 cw with her
what in the-
Mostly build her for thunderbolt missions for extra matd
0% understanding
Its been more than 500 days i dont long
Sorry,
I dont have many good cons tbh
Tldr get nanami startrail if u want good light team
As the game got a "rework" many things changed, right ?
Yes
I think even veronica does more dmg than her
Trash
Dang
veronica probably does 50x her dmg
Alisa doing more dmg than her
💀
decent isnt even close
When i started she was good
veronica is the best powercreeping unit trust me
and we're more than 6 years in to the game
Is Lamia still meta or not,i already have Jetavie fully build at sss+,so i was wondering if she is still useful on my account
No not meta anymore
lamia is long out of the meta
even lilith can outdmg her
Veronica gave me 5m increase in score 
Veronica gave me ahh
Fr
Like 1m at most tbh
even lilith?? that's insane..
that suck,lamia have a really pretty design
Grab Rosetta now for your dark team
Lamia was pretty weak all things considered when Lilith released
does she need her sign or pet? i just came back after a long break so im pretty out of pulls rn
she gave me a reason to hate her
If you're low on pulls you don't NEED to pull her signature weapon
She can do without either; both give more dmg
Cubs are optional as always
Yeah
They kinda have to increase patch incomes
Since a rank frequency has dropped to hell
Hello rveryone! As we know that there is the new selector, I am just debating if I should ss3 someone (most likely ish) or sss my ss3 nanami (worst decision a pgr can do is pulling the arrival banner, but her position can really last a long time, I am a low-spender so it is tempting…)
“You have a safe amount of BCs, pull nanami on arrival for SSS. She will last for many patches. Do it, do it I say!”
We are in the same situation
My personal verdict was
ish safest option
my low-spender status may neutralzie the cons, but it is tempting
also the most reasonable if we're counting in the breaker class they added 
70% is better than winning the side of the coin you want 🤔
godamn
I am scared of more breakers
SS3 ishmael can wait
nanami 😔
that's the thing
actually just spin the wheel or flip a coin
works everytime
How's ur ib scores?
Just wait for info on the next beta first; maybe new Leap, maybe not
I am staring at future Kamui and Alpha right in th eeyes
wantap I don't understand 14s nihil 
Wanna copy my homework?
Zuchinnilao how you do 13s dork, I always get 14
the arrival lasts for a month so there is no hurry I guess @solemn berry
my Rosetta slow
Oh sorry
Yeah no need
nvm, 2 weeks

You're talking about arrival?
Nihil
15s
Teddy SSS r2 (4dv 4 guin 6class)
Oblivion SSS r3 ss cub (4 sign 4 cott 6atk 6 core)
Watank SSS r1 s cub (4pc shakes 2pc eins 2pc cott 4class)
14 s
SSS Oblivion r3 ss cub (4 sign 4 cott 6 core 6 atk)
SSS Parhelion r3 ss cub (4pc shakes 4pc guin 4 sign 2 class)
SSS Watank r1 ss cub (4pc dv 2pc eins 2pc glo 4 class)
Dark
14 s
SSS aret...
I'm talking about the free selector
the 70/30 banner
You can just wait for the selector
yeah, you're right
this'd be a no-brainer if I hadn't gotten lucky with the selena arrival banner with the free arrival tickets
this forced me sss her with the blue target 😔
haxx
free homework 
600 rc

Guys what build did you all use on rosetta at ss0?
if you have someone to hold Bathlon might as well use Cottie
I use 4 sig 4 cottie
Top attack, bottom signature
ccheck #1220163911723253760
Thanks
S rosetta is useless right?
No sht
Maybe only 1
mine cant
why not
3s Selena or ss3 Ishmael 

If already ss6 selena go for selena
If not ish then
Dlt not needed smh
She's still got some use
im about to do dark warzone is everything right?
fak whel
oh fk do i need to r3 my rosetta
You're back
really just r2
domain deconstruction and allat
Ohh ok lemme r2 her
sss should have permanent shred uptime anyway. so no need for resonant echo
(or whatever that resos name was)
But is arete really starter at sss?
ok thank you
Sorry you're a bit late it's already over
i dont read any kits so this helps alot i just sss right off the bat
Clueless whale is back ready for more action
oh wait i see an issue
You can use 6dv now
6-piece Da Vinci on lilith
Oh yeah 6davinci
ive been working overtime to fund my pokemon card collection and to maintain whaling in my gacha games
Have you been consistently playing pgr
wtf j*b
Cause you're barely here
i just do warzone and ppc
Yeah I need a job to buy me a new phone too
i think its time for me to get a pilot
But I'm not legally allowed to work yet 
What is that lilith reso tho
oh hell, you rite
Dps reso on qte bot
oh
idk which team i used her as dps but i never changed it
SSS rose need dlt?
but ill change it now
I know
Dark pre rosetta
oh i have no idea
he knows
bored
they should discontinue normal pgr and make it only be the monster hunter event
forever
Qte 
Guys what will be the meta dark team
Lets say ss3
lilith, rosetta, any amp
replace the amp with Watanabe, if he is SSS and leaped
Bianca crep is not meta anymore? 💀 💀 💀
Idk what memo is this, but it's def not guin
Then wth is this
well, thats not true
ss3 can still be useable in some circumstances actually.
but thats not thoroughly tested yet i believe
.

?
Ss3 bonca seems safe
https://youtu.be/7C2PE-n1FTU?si=1RSmmA2ynZRn9bEh
Bonka 4Jeanne 4Cottie + DLT
Honse 4Nimue 4Bathlon + shred reso
Lilith 4DV 4guin + amp resos
Guin activates on any skill that heals
Oh yeah so do u guys know which frame won't be in meta for long?

Yo how did that guy can use bian ult that fast
I thought i have to hold the blue orb
Its the uh, sss bonka rotation
Welp dream crushed
Cottie bonca
Amp ish qte heals

is pyroath SS6 good for plasma?
i dont know who to get on selector because i think my ishmael is already SS3 or 6
did grayravens site EoS'd?
Maybe
sadly not yet
any recordings of ts wz with rosetta
do you see a ts warzone happening
oh its a goddamn phys wz
lmfao
dementia moment
youre welcome, Glasya Labolas Final Fantasy 14
Any qte activates dv
Dab me up with you in legend next reset
Just look at the dmg diff
Are we sure that rosetta dark is class skill?
resonance
Actually
specifically
SSS+ Rosetta
+
SSS+ Bianca
What Resonance Do i put on Rosetta
@wanton hatch
@noble zinc
Lower resonance
No idea bout leviathan invest
I need to take a flight to china to ask these CN players
But I think Rosetta still goes ult?
If horse still deals good dmg, then ult?
Bonca's dmg is that wrecked huh
As much below sss
Do some reds or yellow or blue
2nd clip
why you doin diff color
Showing that either way it's not enough to ult
Me not theory don't know everything but none saw using her like this

Let's wait till magma comes
Well yeah you SHOULD be able to just only use Red once SSS
Because you get more sig energy
But if I'm not getting enough to sig, then why is Bathlon recommended at this rank?
WHAT THE FCK IS DISCORD DOING MAN
THIS IS NOT THE CLIP I CLICKED ON
OH MY GOODNESS IT KEEPS OPENING UP THAT GIF
Cuz gnrl rot need that
You not giving bath to sss bonca
Or amp
She works just fine
What does GNRL? mean?
Also Even at SSS+?
If not doin full hold blue then yeah after red some orb pings we do
If minmax goin memo can change
Like bonca overkilling honse need that ult reso
Mostly class is fine
Everyone using that
S+ yes
I both did red and didn't do red
Neither had enough to ult
What does that have to do with Arete's sig energy lol
Holy English
Because build says Bathlon
Cuz you need that
Do some reds
Like said
You just did red once
Or yellow or blue
Even 2nd rot
Mostly
2nd swap i guess a bit early we get
Then can fit 2 rots in amp
Cuz of that
because 3s removes the needs for consuming sp when same orb colour
energy is not a problem
Sp bar see
Followup swaps can't do this fast too much rembemer
Ful hold blue it is
Need what, Cottie or Bathlon? Because I'm using Bathlon, so if I "need" Bathlon, then I'm actively using it, and if I "need" Cottie, then why does it say to use Bathlon?
In the first clip I'm only doing red
You aren't even doing hold blue there

Nukelao you're asia right?
So sss rosete just reds
Whats fluc on SEA?
First rot red
2nd rot blue dragging full mostly
Hero or leg
Hero
321.8
2.333 123

no bonca
So alternate it
Rbrb the wz rots

Or first red after just blue?
Wait

【比肩过去一切顶分!全三暗豪取2700W!(远非极限分)-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/aP7bc8T
This see
Most doin same thing
Minus ish rots
My SS0 bonca is 11 wdym you can't 
Ok but what about
3rd rot
Sea but bonca 
What your full team
Well can't do anything
You don't 3 rot with her
Bad enough to keep Horse on field until she doesn't have 6 orbs to keep going
(Arete/Scire/random amp)
https://youtu.be/E3h2SH8UOgY If use this vid as ref
#punishinggrayraven #punishinggrayravenglobal #pgrgameplay #pgrwarzone #rosetta #lilith #legendwarzone
Lilith done have?
wth do I do about downtime after rose 2nd rot?
No Lilith
You
Got cottie?
On honse
No Cappuccino

No nothin'
difficult
So I use Spectre
I don't no solo sss rose how plays
bath nimue
Cottie can build?

Feeling SS3 should use cottie
So I do 3 ult starter or what?
Double blue long
Unoptimzed this
But got good score too
11.6 hero tapped na
233

Ss3 minus that downtime should fit SS0 bath ending seems
You can build? Then can pilot make ref then
ye
Ult reso do all
Bottom
These dm fk ult spam making my sanity go

Also wut reso and cub your for Lilith and honse 
R3 ss pets need
Min rights
fk whel

rose r1 s pet, lilick r3 ss pet
Should do
My mis how i r1
sss R1 wtf
right?
build changed?
Good thing I'm filthy rich on ht mats
whel
U know im brick
U know i sss 2.5 units with cw
A bit late happend luna leap mentioning
I can r3 her
But with relics
What's that
Relics not use
old sigs me thinks
Qu and bergil

gib gib me waiting
Ca cw alisa empy and feral sig also relics
My Alisa is still holding on to vertias sig 
Kuro I'd got?
Ancient after ancient
?
Don't know what's that?
Connect your email in account center it was i guess
Been so long me too forgot 
This you mean?
Alr there
Oh
@fluid gulch can you check if ishmael counts vanguard as attacker
yes
I mean no
Because Ishmael doesn't check for attackers
She only cares about tanks or amps

Ishmael isn't checking for an attacker, it's not working because Ishmael is detecting 2 tanks or 2 amps or 1 of each
When she sees that she dies

there are 2 cases for ishmael to work
1 atk 1 tank or 1 atk 1 amp
in both cases she checks for atk
A team with ish just needs attacker, not ish needs attacker to work
No, get 11m or bust
@plain oyster does she work with healer
Nuh uh, I just fcked up my single chance for a ref
Atleast this week
I do have have pc let's do it or else 
No
Info don't need
show
Classless 
WHAT DID I SAY

you said cw > camu
Which is true
Vanguard not needed
Healer 
Technically incorrect, that's Luna specific

And likewise, if you put Ish with only an attacker
Ish dies
Hmm
I hate Luna 
SSS3 liilith R2
SSS bonka R2
SS3 Rosetta R1
Rydle video see
Wait
@fluid gulch

12mil delulu
Done
12.5+ seems possible
I pad play must need
nope

Ping orbs before form change
-hold ba with necessary color
-ult
This basic
Now
Inputs in comments.
BGM: Kiseki jdk Acoustics - Afternoon in Crossbell (Zero no Kiseki)
SSS0 Crepuscule 4Jeanne 4Cottie R3 SS cub 6atk 6ult
SS3 Arete 4Nimue 4Bathlon R2 SS cub 6atk 6class
SSS0 Daemonissa 4Davinci 4Guinevere R3 Lingya cub 6atk 6class
Wait again
Ye see this
He using mouse
Can understand beter
then can ask if problem
how is this guy getting bianca ult up with just 2x 3 orb pings
You sleep tomorrow I will make one short video with that how to do
Inputs will be there
need to do this rn, i will be asleep tomorrow
wait
what is rosetta's rot as well?
Starting at what rank, is it more efficient to Sig Spam with Bianca Crepes?

this mem layout 
How's this bianca rot
Hold dodge > hold basic > hold blue > 3red > ult> 3red x2 > dodge > hold basic + release on red flash > 3red > ult > red red dodge hold basic + red > swapout
Subsequent swaps:
Swap in > ult > (red x2 > dodge hold basic release on flash > ult) x5
Feyer made it i thinkge
what invest
Swap-HD-botoom circle bar fill-hold blue-3special-3nlrmal- ult2-3r-d-3r-d-hba- release when flash- 3p
First rot
Followup insta ult if that final 3p before swap out done
Rest all same repeat
3p-d-3p-d- hba-relase on flash-3p-ult
Can also do 3p-3p- dodge -hba

Wth is that dmg

Nobody will


32.33
What invest/comps exactly?
why wanshi? no sss wata?
Wanshi is omega brick here he doesn't have permanent shred uptime
You'll be better off using sss lilith to make ishmael become a breaker
That's way too low I got the same score with ss0 bianca 😭
You in legend too btw?
yeah
Shet 
did you use 5ult
On who?

wait what reso invest then lmfaooo
It's likely still low 😭
113

I haven't uploaded my wata run yet but nuke has one
Is anyone able to test ice WZ for me?
I mostly copied what he did with slight adjustments for my waves
why ice?
Mayb i don’t have driver license for rose yet. Gotta practice how to drive her 
@lusty minnowhttps://youtu.be/E3h2SH8UOgY?si=2oy-UCavNNlU94xr
#punishinggrayraven #punishinggrayravenglobal #pgrgameplay #pgrwarzone #rosetta #lilith #legendwarzone
I wonder if Rose at different invests would outperform a 2nd amp for the team's 3rd member
train the uma
that's....a unique idea
Lmao never considered it
But I doubt it tbh 😭 worth trying though
Although I don't see it being better on mob zone
I also wonder how it compares between SS3 and SSS Teddy
why would that make a difference tho?
Cause I feel like SS3 Teddy will def want an amp w QTE reset
But who knows maybe breaker passive is just that broken
Yeah tank test would better with boss zone
ah true
Or elite
SSS Teddy has more leeway with testable options
mine ss3 I’m use cottie and darwin like you said. Wata hold dv n bath 
My account still is only SS6 SS3 Teddy if you wanna test that out sometime
It honestly can't be THAT good unless it's a super tanky boss zone, and/or ss3 rosetta
with sss teddy for qte reset yeah
Also 6dv work on ice
I mean actually usefull?
I already cleared your ice before rose's patch dropped because I was bored 
That's what I was thinking cause esp since Teddy doesn't have much TLC
I could give it a shot but yeah without sss teddy it'll probably be brick
breaker doesn't get timestopped that's the issue
Oh yea
no
Im not sure why they did that
But I guess void scores would be through the roof if they did
interesting lol then there's even more wrong going on 
Score shouldn't be this low
Even not solve wanshi shreds?
Ishmael Za Waurdo simulator
it won't do anything for that lol he already has his qte up and able to be cycled with dv midway through teddy's 2nd rot
how's SS3 vs SS rosetta looking for value if already have sig?
Could be my driving skill sometimes I drove way too out of middle 
uh I mean it's pretty strong
Especially for trueslash it seems
what rot did you use
double hold blue?
Yup
Pretty strong ngl
Pull for it if you can, but make sure you can afford future characters and gear first
1-1.5-2 warzone seems
With bicana
im sitting on 61k BC
so i can afford i guess
1.5 let's say better
Do it
What you waiting for
alpha
Get the skin too



if they dont cook with alpha i riot
But Bianca deadge below SSS

Sss alpha ur goal or s+?

3S is enough
S+ usually is not really worth it tbh

Then can get ss3 rose
even u now have enought to sss her
Ok can someone send the yt link for the 19m dark iirc using 32.33 323 setup iirc
Ohh wait
U f2p fully?


n o.
Then

my rc top up tally is liek 4k but i day 1 

4k rc
fk whel
Mpa and bp u mostly i seen
So i no complain
6k more do it 
that's only like 100/year 

monthly is already more than half that

pak whel

My total rc is 7k6 from 2022 to now 

let me check what it is


whel
ok i'll pak u then
oh wait.

since 2019 


Look at these whells can't relate
mid
think totals up to like $1300
Yeah cuz u top up that in 1 patch
dont think ive ever done rc to bc conversion only ever bought monthlies/bp/some packs

wym ain't no way im spending tht much in this game

Then i not wanna say smting
Oh I’m done 1 time to get banana 3s 
what is rosetta resonance Weapon?
gotta do ti to support rosetta eyeball detail
u guys are spending money in this game? 

what are u a try hard? 
my money shifted to wuwa now.
Collecting sss good
Same 
My money now divide into 3 game pgr wuwa wwm 
2 patch and i not need to spend on games
Only if its nessesary
Ohh wai thats 3 patch
Forgot alpha patch
Kamui and alpha patch all need to spend money
Kamui I’ll get him ss3
Alpha I’ll try to get 3s
2.333 is 13mil 

If lucky
Gl
Donno if i wanna mald
I start to hate 5 ult bonka
Every time when dodge get stuck
Yea that 
Disgusting but I like it
Challenging
Def not recommended to play others kill bonca

Or remove that lightning
Theres ezier 5 ult rot?
Then i cant red flash
use hax
Macro?
Dark balders are most mad mans yod find 
Yeah nergi became more mad when touched s+ bonka

so reddit is lying to me when they say you use dont use ss3 bianca right
Lying
Imagine dark malder i could never
Ss3 bonka alive
Why duck

It's the qte nuke that clutches
any specific build requirements for it
All rank ult spam same
and dodges
i mean with normal rot lilith would be better no
It's kind of triple swap wut seeing normal rot
One rot Lilith

Prep your ult then swap out
That blue damage big
Like on bears with proper distribution
Noticable
Ult spam higher celing still
2.323
2.32.33 as per cn that too
Both works seems as per other players
For now I played only with cot
Dlt don't need
Ss3
just use ishmael 4soth 4cot, luna 4cleopatra 2cottie 2eins (4cottie if squishy mob zone), Lilith 4dv 4guin
@buoyant hornet 2.333 played?
Wait so for void sss lilith is better than sss wata now (ss3 ish)?
nihil next week? 
Yea vr mob

Thanks Horse for the constant punishment on your orb mechanics, had to restart 50 times, cant even past the second swap round

Lingya is recommended. You can pre-stack the links for better amp buff uptime, but you miss out on many buffs like weather and Darwin.
0:00 Bathlon
1:00 Cottie
Got no orb issues following this rotation
<@&595893856554319873> ponzi is at it again
Whats the best 2 piece set for Rosetta?
probs bath or darwin
Bathlon does jacksht at 2pc tbh
You usually use elemental mems at their 4pc
Then again I'm not sure what else would be better for rosetta
It might actually just be her only choice
I'm assuming this guy is asking because he doesn't have sig to harmo
2pc still buffs
Herself
well yeah
he's talking about rosetta
@jagged belfry can you post your huaxu
depending on who you actually have invested in this answer might change
Explore the 59 characters of Fire_rani from the North America server of Punishing: Gray Raven.
how close are you to getting the mats for harmo?
because with harmo the answer is always 4 bath
until harmo you probably run einstein probably
These?
yeah okay just do 4 sig 4 bath
you probably eventually want to get another memory set that's 4 sig 4 cottie but that can wait
Bet, thanks bro 🙏
no
dont believe reddit
however
if you are really bad at the bianca rotation
maybe it might be
but yknow just get better in that case
im just asking, don't care what reddit says cuz thats how kuro has been going since every new tank release lol
SS3 bianca is barely surviving too
14 at best
2.133
If you have SS0 Bianca, she's benched
what if she is ss3
2.133 is 18
SS3 Bianca maybe has some life left to her but we aren't too sure yet
i see
gross oversimplification
nanami only replaced alpha because alpha was geriatric
If you have an SSS tank like Wata though
I think it's safe to say SS3 Bianca is gone
In hero she performs similarly to SSS Wata, but in legend she might be bricked
im out of loop rn
3 seconds CD for SSS tank, also a tank can hold DD so that Rose can use a damage reso
ga horse 

does wanshi work?
hyperbrick
Wata would be better but Wanshi works
okok
wait, on equal invest rosetta benches balter2?
no
with another SSS tank she might, i guess someone would have to compare
and i'm just not good at rosetta (yet)
for me both at SS, didnt really bothered to invest further
but ig should try a rot with 3s wata in that case
ss3 only
also if im going with bianca,
sign+bathx2-- dv+guin?
that might also change the math idk
i ignored her with wanshit for some reason
the two teams would be wanshi (dvc) - lilith (dps) - rosetta (dps) and bianca (dps) - lilith (dvc) - rosetta (dps)
like this rn
can i ask what the change on selena sig mem do?
Wanshi won't work as well
Nanami and Watanabe are best for this case
wait why does wata work but wanshi not
Cause Wanshi's shred field is ass
Wata has a shred field on qte with leap
ah
Tell me how to turn cogs into irl money
You'll run out of shred field before you swap back to him
what can be used for stealing low invest rotation nowadays? need an example of what to do with rosetta in main dps setup 
i mean with sss you dont even swap him in no
wouldnt double ult rosetta+ double/triple ult lilith cover the entire downtime with the -3 second swap time
Nigh-useless for SS0/3. Her kit (except Noise count) considers casting Blue as casting Orchestra Ult, thus, activates off-field damage (SS) and qte nuke (SS3) when she switches out.
@noble zinc in your dark wz with wata run, what was the rotation to have wata efficiently trigger lingya?
I keep on screwing up the wata rotation
Ult1-BA-3p-HD-Blaze-ult-3p- swap out
I see, thanks
@noble zinc why burn mobs
Why 1tap trash
Also wtf is this new ui
Ok the sac is strong
I will try rose tomorrow

what is the inputs for ss0 rosetta rot
what would be the benefit for sss?
No no that shouting/roar emoji not mad
Need to try dark wz with rose df team
Khaled legacy
Did his alt also get banned
also none
for wz it absolutely wont change anything
and ppc it just sucks
the entire point of the burana change is that you can activate qte nuke after blue
Would rose SS be better than Wata SS3 in darkflow?
Wata is still better
He provides more shred and is still an enabler for DF
1st rot:
Swap in > 🔵 🔵 > hold BA > 🔴 🔴 > hold BA > ⚪ > hold BA > ult
2nd rot:
🔵 🔵 > hold BA > 🔴 🔴 > hold BA > ⚪ > 🔴 > hold BA > ult > swap out
Bathlon rot, no DLT needed
ty
Need lingya for consistency is all
It's so bad
The dopamine from that golden "NEW RECORD!" is gone
this my biggest problem with the change
i like it
but where tf is my big yellow new record text
there is a visual cue on the new score zone lol
It's not the same












