#I believe dailies completely go against what the game is making us feel before we hit lvl 50

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uncut stag
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Its a big deal sometimes because if a daily exist for that place u can just wait for the daily instead

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Otherwise, not much in my eyes

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Man

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AOE got boots to auto dodge for some fae felt, strong aoe is whatever
Knife got burst evade
A battle chem and a bard in a team coordinating can make aoe not even a thing anymore for any class

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Can u even do the buff as a bard focusing on battle chem anyway?

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I think u can lit be a 100% burst evade station

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If all a boss does is a strong AOE u have the entire team hopefully kited out with some boots then heal second aoe then third or even fourth u just fully dodge then ur nearly ready to have bolts auto dodge again

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Or its a1tap physical AOE? Bard/battle chem can delete that too probably xd

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Like lower dmg enough on anyone

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If its elemental of any kind like darkness/nature meditation

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Thats not what that wall of text was...?

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In a way it does but nearly nope yep

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Its a boss that someone goes after, not ready likely, because of a daily

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Underleveled even

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But thats a thing for vampire unlock aswell so... Shrug

topaz geyser
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I don't really understand your messages. Sorry dude. We are talking about how the dailies heavily impact how people see and play the game, and you are talking about AoE and evasion.
The whole point of the discussion is to ask the devs what is the intent of the dailies, because as of right now, my opinion (and it seems the opinion of quite a few people), is that the daily simply add nothing positive to the game. The game was amazing until they come in play. As soon as they became a reality, the whole community on the server focuses on them and putting blinders and saying "yeah just don't care about FOMO" is not an acceptable answer to ask new players to have when literally their whole server only talks about them.

ebon island
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"Quite a few people" is generous. It's less than 10 spamming the same complaint in a circle fashion without expanding on how dailies are bad.

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It's never been said to not care about FOMO either. You've been told repeatedly that you're using the term incorrectly. You're not missing anything and any "fear" of doing so is because you've convinced yourself of it.

ebon island
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It's not softcore WoW at all. Events and daily activities are a form of incentivization for people to do content they wouldn't normally join others to do. The dailies being referenced here are absolutely minor for the time involved short of those nearing endgame and gating level uncaps. Arguments being made against them are being repeated, along the lines of "I feel like I have to do this because others are doing it" or "We should make dailies less frequent so then it's not FOMO" (happening LESS would qualify more as FOMO btw).

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The only things you actually have to do in this game that are time gated are favoring your statehelm trainers, and that's absolute endgame.

topaz geyser
stuck oriole
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you dont have to do dailies you can just stand around serbule typing all day 🤓

topaz geyser
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Many people literally said "FOMO comes from you, just ignore it"

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like who are we gaslighting here?

ebon island
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It's not fear of missing out if the content is always there. It's fear of missing out if you don't do the content and it's gone.

topaz geyser
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Yeah, that is just completely wrong lmao

ebon island
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Not making 12-30k in one day isn't missing anything.

ebon island
stuck oriole
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because its an opinion

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dailies suck and are the devil

ebon island
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Dailies won't be removed regardless.

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Good luck team.

stuck oriole
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or dailies are fine stop getting FOMO

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the opinion that dailies are dogshit is correct though

ebon island
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I agree that they're dogshit.

stuck oriole
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theres plenty of polished korean mmos to play with dailies fw_gigachad

ebon island
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I'm just not agreeing with some of the reasons as to WHY they are.

stuck oriole
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yea i mean its just whatever the brain at the other pc is thinking, everyones different with diff opinions

unique slate
topaz geyser
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Yeah at this point I feel it's pointless trying to have a discussion with this guy. Insults first, stay on his position and ignore literally all the points made in the discussion. Cool. That's a super interesting one way conversation, you can have it by yourself

unique slate
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There are studies, manuals etc. At this point we are arguing semantics though. The point is that dailies incentivize people to concentrate on them.

stuck oriole
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just changing the reset from every midnight to like monday midnight would make a big difference in how annoying it feels, bump the rewards to be like 3-4 days reward once per week, some middle-ground solution

ebon island
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Enlighten me on the points made that weren't correct like how it's so much money.

topaz geyser
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Buddy, you just said we don't understand FOMO. Just go read on it and then we can have a discussion. It's not all about money. Like, at all.
It's about how it impacts new players, socialization, dungeons exploration and freedom of choice.

ebon island
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I said what FOMO means.

topaz geyser
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well, your wrong definition, yes. Won't go very far with the basics being wrong lol

ebon island
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fear of missing out. You can attribute it to anything at all, even oversleeping given your understanding of it.

unique slate
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I posted an article from wiki before, it was in this discussion.

ebon island
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You have to miss something and not be able to do the thing after the fact to qualify as FOMO. Things like "buy this in the next 20 minutes or it's gone!" or "do this over the next three days or you have to wait a year"

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A daily is not FOMO unless you're unable to do the daily.

topaz geyser
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By your own definition, you miss out on 10K council. Every day you don't do them.

unique slate
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There's so many articles on Internet about this though, and attributing fomo to only a narrow view of, missing an event , which arguably daily is, isn't correct.

ebon island
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10k councils can be made in literally minutes outside of group content, I can't reason with you.

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You need millions of councils.

topaz geyser
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Cool.

unique slate
topaz geyser
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Dailies are still there and done by most people on the srever

ebon island
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Yes, they sure are.

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That's great. 40/50 content wouldn't be done otherwise.

topaz geyser
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alright, connect the dots... what are the implications of this?

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of course it would.

ebon island
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Not that it's making anyone rich.

topaz geyser
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So before dailies, nobody ever set foot in a dungeon then. Weird, I always found group just going there.

unique slate
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This is hopeless arguing against somebody who refuses to acknowledge points of the other side

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This was all already explained before in detail

ebon island
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40/50 dungeons are easily soloable. Grouping makes them easier and more accessible, and things like the Fairy and Fox quests are tied to dungeons.

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an endgame player running through Casino dailies is just doing it for the vibes if anything.

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Those aren't even the good dailies.

unique slate
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If there's anybody going in circle then it's you Loobs . It was already established that dailies change behavior of people on servers to prioritize them to other group content

ebon island
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Now when AM has Rahu Sewers on rotation, that can't be soloed because it's a timed switch press to spawn a boss at the end.

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a lot of players don't do the casino dailies.

unique slate
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Reading comprehension isn't strong side of people in this server. Nobody cares about what people solo.

ebon island
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Also to be fair, I don't consider a high level player charging through low level content as doing the content.

ionic geyser
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I’m impressed this has gone on for 1000+ replies lol

kindred viper
ebon island
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It's an easy thread to rack post count and incite arguments. Dailies are bad, I agree that they're bad. I do not agree that it's FOMO or that people are getting rich by doing the casino ones in particular.

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You need an insane amount of money and spending months doing the casino dailies would barely cover it.

unique slate
sage trail
# ebon island 10k councils can be made in literally minutes outside of group content, I can't ...

As previously discussed, the Qatik dailies are in fact a red herring, making new players believe that doing casino dailies with Qatik is the most reasonable way forward for overcoming the level 50 and level 60 uncap.

This in turn has created a behavior shift in which players are near constantly spamming global chat with ‘LFG Casino’, tagging other bosses, or a heavy focus is on outright skipping as many mobs or speedrunning the dungeon as much as possible to get the ‘daily over with’. This behavior extends to the AM dailies, the Statehelm Nightlies, and the Fae Realm dailies.

Other people on the thread have discussed that this strong emphasis on daily based activities is a drastic shift in game presentation from how the game is originally presented from levels 1-50, and negatively reinforces ‘Chore-Like’ behaviors demonstrated by other MMORPGs that players have praised Project Gorgon for not following up until that point.

In lieu of continuing the theme of exploration in the game, it has been suggested on this thread that the devs either scrap the casino dailies or rework them from the grounds up to be less frequent, less accessible via the casino warp portal, and better randomized to encourage exploration of all the dungeons and content in the game and not just a rotation of 3-4 dungeons.

And no, this is not an AI summary,

ebon island
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Thank you. The above was said beautifully.

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That's something that actually makes sense and I agree with fully.

unique slate
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Also nobody here said that dailies are super lucrative and a tool to become super rich. This is just a straw man against which some people are fighting against in this thread, but this isn't the argument here

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We can discuss the reasons why dailies are so popular and we already did at length here. It won't change the fact that they are popular though.

ebon island
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No he summed up the actually valid points.

topaz geyser
sage trail
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Thank you. Please remember to stay on topic and avoid ad hominems as the mods are already eyeing this thread…

stuck oriole
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if the content REQUIRES a daily to get people to do it... is that good content to be exposing the players to? something so bad nobody would do otherwise?

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i think more people would do the variety of dungeons based off of the rewards obtained alone, without any additional incentive tbh

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maybe if there were rewards unique to each dungeon to obtain there

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as the incentive, x boss drops x cool item not obtainable elsewhere and so on

ebon island
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It's good content within the level range for the items inside them, or when doing side related things like the skull unlocks or fae things.

stuck oriole
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right now theres really not much unique loot found in dungeons, occasionally theres a boss specific drop but its very arbitrary and inconsistent

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each boss should have a few unique items applicable to enough builds to cover interest by players, and maybe a way to preview what they might obtain for trying out a dungeon they havent done before

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then the incentive issue dailies try to solve might be alleviated a bit

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could even be other progression items that are not gear, so dark chapel might have a boss drop that is used to help crafting skill up to 80-90 levels or something

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osrs does stuff like this and it makes most content relevant and rewarded purely off the content alone

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the dailies are just a bandaid fix for an underlying interest problem in the later dungeons, theres little point to do any of them

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imo

compact gazelle
stuck oriole
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all of my good 90 gear has been obtained not from doing hard lvl 90 content but teleporting my alts to the yellow room for free legendary gear, as an example 😄

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theres no interest in doing dungeons when they offer no unique rewards for spending time clearing them

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so the dailies are "the interest" horribly-so

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changing the dailies to weeklies, removing them entirely, increasing/reducing their reward, all would be avoiding this underlying core truth

topaz geyser
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I agree with Crazy Mike. If people need more incentive to do a variety of dungeons, it needs to be done through other means than dailies. Specific loot or something related to a specific crafting skill, that would push people sharing those to group together. As long as XP and loot is good, it should be pretty easy to complete the group anyway

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It could even be done through buffs, for example, one boss in a dungeon gives you a boost for gardening for a few days or something, although, we edge again on the "I am a gardener so I need to do this content every time I want to grow stuff"

stuck oriole
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theres endless opportunity for integrating rewards from dungeon bosses into other parts of the game, non combat skills and the like

compact gazelle
# kindred viper We'll be closing it soon if people can't discuss this politely.

It's already way way way past that

Everyone's just going in circles over the following with insults and bad faith left and right

  • dailies are too lucrative to pass up, way out of line with amou t of councils gained from other activities (i suspect this is due to neglecting favor so you can't sellthings at good prices, making the modest 10k-15k huge by comparison)
  • dailies cause a toxic shift in how the players engage with the game and each other
  • dailies are a manipulative way to get people to log in more, exploiting human psychologicak tendencies
  • the dailies cause FOMO because they are so lucrative. any form of opportunity cost/FOMO is inherently bad and the design of the game must change to prevent it
  • the dailies are not that great for the time spent abd are actually a noob trap people are getting stuck on
  • no one's in other dungeons. Other dungeons are constantly over farmed
kindred viper
stuck oriole
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would be interesting if they were outright disabled for a week or two and just see how players adapt playing as some experiment

sage trail
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The dungeons already have unique innate loot to them

compact gazelle
sage trail
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(It would be nice if Dark Chapel had more fire resistance innate loot but I digress)

kindred viper
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Otherwise, the warning has been issued.

stuck oriole
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then spread that kind of loot to all of the dungeons with sensible uses

sage trail
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If they wanted to make the dungeons more ‘repeatable’ they could perhaps give you a 1 week buff for completing the dungeon

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Like completing dark chapel would give you a +2 fire resistance that lasts for 3 days or 7 days or whatever. Completing yeti cave gives you +2 cold resistance, etc.

topaz geyser
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At this point, while I think it would be a shame to close the thread. It definitely got traction and the only thing I can hope is that it reach the devs, as we are indeed somewhat running in a circle or the conversation is getting lost in the very long thread. I really wonder what is their intent behind the dailies and if they would hope to made changes to them.

stuck oriole
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yea i mean theres been a bit of additional productive talk and ideas thrown around

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from this original post

sage trail
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You know crazy idea…but what if they completely rework the skill uncaps to function like Elven Judgment or Nightmare caves where the npc you need to locate for unlocking a new skill is located at the end of a certain dungeon?

wanton barn
# stuck oriole would be interesting if they were outright disabled for a week or two and just s...

I said way earlier in the thread (like hundreds of messages ago lol), I'm guessing players will still do dungeon spam for loot to clear out vendor cash, especially post 50 when uncap costs start drowning out other priorities. Not sure if it would just be random dungeons, or people would flock to the ones with best loot density/farm spots

*so it might not be "LFG qatik daily", and instead just turn into "LFG yeti loot farm"

stuck oriole
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they would flock to the easiest dungeons with the best loot, basically gazluk

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most likely

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or yeti/wolf

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lab would die outright

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dark chapel would die for early game, maybe cus the droach are rough when you are at level

wary drift
topaz geyser
wanton barn
stuck oriole
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like i said before giving a genuinely interesting reward that isnt directly gear might be a huge incentive for players for their non combat skills or general utility items

ebon island
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This should be an entirely different discussion at this point. The bullet points that should be addressed in regards to the original post is just getting lost in walls of text.

stuck oriole
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a shovel that has a chance at 2x-3x compassion xp on bury from some undead boss somewhere, stuff like that

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drops that aid with other skills or have some additional utility, combat or non combat

wanton barn
stuck oriole
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and these should be attuned, so YOU have to go get it

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at some point a lvl 90 should get all there is to get from dark chapel and not go back unless hes re-levelling new weapons

wanton barn
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dungeon-specific gear enchants, from a pool of enchants (off topic I know)

topaz geyser
wanton barn
stuck oriole
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the dailies are the incentive to do most dungeons right now, not the rewards from the dungeon themselves, so they are two sides of the same "reason for doing" coin

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but yeh its not 100% remove dailies and everything is fixed

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that void has to be filled for player incentive

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a garunteed RNG purple/yellow just isnt enough, players are showered in random gear constantly so it really doesnt prove to be a good motivator (to get through and clear a dungeon just for the sake of it)

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something thats interesting and has long term progression benefits would be much more "gorgon-like" imo

unique slate
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I see a lot of replayability already in how various skills are laid out. In order to become a druid you need to be 50+ in a different combat skill. This is already something that makes people play earlier dungeons because of 'grinding' new combat skills.

unique slate
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IF we truly want to make dungeons more fun and replayable, then i'm afraid that it would require changing the existing combat mechanics. I can't say what exactly is wrong with them but combat feels chaotic, and perhaps too fast for any meaningful strategies to be employed. No matter how good rewards are for completing the dungeons, the way should be the reward in itself.

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And then ofc, balance the rewards accordingly to the difficulty.

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This is way over my head though, since all these systems are connected.

sage trail
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That’s the “Zerging topic” that is reserved for another discussion thread. This issue will exist regardless of the casino daily problem we previously talked about

wanton barn
# unique slate IF we truly want to make dungeons more fun and replayable, then i'm afraid that ...

These three messages are off-topic, however

combat feels chaotic, and perhaps too fast for any meaningful strategies to be employed
I completely disagree with this. Any group I'm in that isn't steamrolling over content they've overleveled (e.g. qatik) is generally discussing tanking/healing roles, and adjusting gear/skills accordingly. I certainly do consider how much tanking and support we have in any given group since I can be backup for both roles while doing dps

kindred viper
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We aren't going to shame players for normal group recruitment in this thread. Last warning before it gets locked.

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My point stands

wanton barn
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LFG spam, whether it's for the daily or otherwise, will always be a game constant. Most people tend to use the Global channel, so it's not surprising you're going to see LFG messages the first thing you login

unique slate
unique slate
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And then there were other posts in here that were suggesting ways to make group combat more rewarding, by giving dungeons various rewards, to incentivize them.

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My other point here is that dungeons ought to be difficult enough to require teamplay.

sage trail
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My recommendation is to make a new default chat channel called ‘LFG’ to at least remove some of the clutter….

unique slate
blissful depot
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As well as Gruzark poetry books for Jams btw

blissful depot
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FWIW I’ve seen it expressed by many vet players of all experience years, and share the sentiment myself, that indeed there is a significant difference in the experience of the game up to lvl 50/60 and after; it does become much less sandbox, and of course that is largely from the grind in part natural to MMOs, but it also very much is influenced by what is put forth as the way to engage with the game both by devs and players. The early game and exploration truly is unique, and a lot of that uniqueness does diminish with time - not necessarily an easy thing to fix, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Is it as fun to eventually do the same loop of daily loops for eventual things, as it is the engage with the rest of the game? Tbh no. It’s been years of “Qatik, AM, Jelly, Eggs” on loop - and people often don’t engage with them because it’s what they want to do, but because they feel like they have to (for N amount of reasons). It’s relevant if I do know that Qatik doesn’t matter that much for example (I haven’t done a single one since 1.0) but it arguably only gets worse from there on. If I have limited time to play the game, how else am I truly going to make endgame build other than logging in for Eggs (eggs being a long running problem of jumping earlier level players to endgame grind that devs do know about btw, and I direly regret engaging with it as early as I did even if I find the zerg kinda fun).

So the point of dailies not mattering at higher level is simply not true - maybe Qatik doesn’t, and it doesn’t if you are deeply engaged in another longterm grind (say, genetics or other crafts), but it unfortunately just gets replaced by others.

The question is: what else do you do? The amount of things to explore gets progressively smaller, the storyline stops, most other people will indeed be focused on dailies. What indeed else is there to do that does indeed retain that uniquely PG earlier game spirit vs a more generic dailies longterm MMO grind?

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The change in gaming population since it exploded has made the issue exponentially worse not through any fault of their own too. People are reaching content in weeks that was previously only possible in years, and they’re hitting the old-known progression walls at breakneck speeds then screeching to a halt at an even bigger whiplash.

Myself and others can try to guide folks to slow down, to not mind dailies, to explore, etc etc, all we want - but as everyone knows people will optimize the fun out of a game if they’re allowed to; and dailies are one part of the problem in that not only they allow it, but they streamline it. There’s a tough balance to be reached between installing breakstops exactly to prevent people from reaching lvl 90 in two weeks time then hitting the wall of content and complaining abt not having anything more to do, and inadvertently making the breakstops create new gameloops that resemble other parts of the industry too much for people not to follow (dailies/other cooldown-oriented loops).

Personally my main concern is that the only real way to address the difference in pre and post lvl 50 experiences is to indeed further expand game content to allow the sandbox spirit to last longer… and the amount of dev resources ending up going towards Qatik dailies (and eventually each following ‘daily’ once people reach those grinds in numbers) will probs continue to take away their opportunity to do precisely that… so the dailies, as they currently exist, become an even bigger detractor than they’d be if this were the same project with a lot more resources.

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I think the thread got way too sidetracked in debating the specifics of Qatik dailies than with the real change in game experience pre and post level 50 tbh. But I understand why it’s as relevant (and prevalent). And my personal opinion is to, yes, kill Qatiks (but not Qatik herself pls) so that people keep exploring rather than following a script - bc it does become the first and biggest script to be followed, and sets the tone for the following ones.

One can always say for players to just go forth and create their own experiences, and that IS true, but it’s also naively trying to squash evidence of part of what disincentivizes people to do so in the first place.

unique slate
# blissful depot I think the thread got way too sidetracked in debating the specifics of Qatik da...

Man, i couldn't agree more with you, well put. Yes indeed, i understand dailies as a way to prolong the lack of content in the beta phase. Game hit release in basically unchanged form, when i compare it to 4 years ago, except a bit of more content added but nothing that could occupy the horde of power gamers for more than 2 months.
I do read from devs about plans on expanding statehelm further and it becoming a new hub for players so hopefully this will be the new content that could replace the dailies grind.
Regarding the idea that more dailies would actually stop developers from adding more interesting content, i think that's a good point. And with the limited amount of manpower in this project, prioritization is even bigger concern than usual.

blissful depot
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FWIW I don’t think you were wrong and I still think there still is plenty that is different about it after - but you have to be a lot more intentional about it. If you’re still at the 50-60 hump, you might be well served to explore what else is there and not mind those loops too much, even with the incentives towards them. (And IMO, it’s always going to be a community that will ultimately make or break an MMO experience anyway because you’re bound to hit the MMO grind wall regardless.)

Myself and others have maintained for a long time that this is more of a marathon than a sprint type of experience, and it’s perfectly fine to take a break and come back in a while. Don’t let the honeymoon period dwindling prevent you from enjoying all the things still there for you to enjoy - but at a more chill pace probably lol. I still loved being my fox self even after regretting getting into eggs loop too soon, and I still enjoy putzing about the world and discovering the indepth systems etc. I took a looong break prior to 1.0 and am excited to be back to explore more new areas, laugh about moping home again, and discover the incoming expansion to the storyline.

It’s not possible to hold that new game spark forever, but this is still a gem that you can know is led by a team with passion and heart behind it. Don’t rob yourself from experiencing at least as far as their joy’s work has been. (: And stay tuned to see what they will come out with too, bc I never expected so much that we’ve been getting to see come this year. They have more resources than ever to continue to implement now.

unique slate
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To make it more clear, the content of pre-50 gives players more freedom without the constraints. Freedom in exploring and taking things at their own pace, without being dictated what dungeon to do today because a daily says it.
The constraint in the form of having to unlock more skills and paying increasing amounts of money likely affects this feeling as well. It has been pointed out that this would be difficult to remove as it's there to stop players from reaching lvl 90 too quickly. Which while i understand the concern doesn't excuse the change of feeling about the game. Eventhough this won't change i'd like to point it out. To be fair, it's impossible to create so much content in any game to prevent similar mechanics to be implemented.

blissful depot
# unique slate Man, i couldn't agree more with you, well put. Yes indeed, i understand dailies ...

I’ve definitely been grimacing every time I see a new server hit the previous level cap within a month’s time. Not much one can do about that atp - indeed like u just said in ur next message it’s a tricky thing to balance.

My hope is the added resources now will allow for continued expansion in the spirit of sandboxing. This type of feedback from new players (and old too ofc but especially new IMHO) is critical for the health and longevity of it all, so even if things get uh spicy in the discussions I hope they continue coming.

unique slate
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I played dnd online which has tons of content and ~~several ~~ hundreds different dungeons and the popular pass-time in there is getting through them as quickly as possible 13 times in a row in order to have a "strongest" character. So yes, people can optimize fun out of every game.

uncut stag
# topaz geyser I don't really understand your messages. Sorry dude. We are talking about how th...

what they add positive and i did say- grouping up easyer, in a way waiting for daily to be on so u go to x dungeon u need something from is a positive AND negative
what negatives and i did say - rushing dungeons, explaining nothing, waiting cause the respawns and amount of players doing the daily, rushing content when underleveled and underprepared just now cause the daily, geting help from lv 90s that 2 tap things making you feel weak

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some frend tells me they dont do much anyway so eh cause they mostly play in groups as priest

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so why build priest for damage right

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cuz the lv 80+ will deal tons more anyway

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0 scaling so the enemy got hp/armor or mechanics to deal with high lvl
0 downscaling so all deal similar damage for ex

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only downscaling in this game is if u play a low lvl class with a high lvl one

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i dont think focusing on 1 topic PRECISELY is constructive in any way ever
if u see OH THIS GUY TALKS ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE and read nothing else, understand nothing else even if its slightly on topic
even if it was not at all on topic - i replied to something on topic

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it was relevant in my eyes to that thing on topic

uncut stag