#Inconsistent Flow on each print/ day

1455 messages Β· Page 2 of 2 (latest)

noble light
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Again thank you πŸ™

bleak shore
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These are not post processed, test single cube first to see how it looks, if it looks bad I will post process it and then we compare again, if it looks good then I will post process the rest and we will continue testing

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this will narrow down if it's slicer or post processor

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if all look bad...

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well

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I'm leaning towards attempting removing the ptfe tube and trying direct feed one more time

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after that...

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we go nuclear

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reflash and resetup

hardy bane
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The bottom left is worse and the top right is good? If there is something loose it would have to be in front/rear direction then. (hold the nozzle and pull/push?).. The bottom left one looks like inconsistent extrusion really but only when toolhead is going in one direction.. Weird..

noble light
noble light
hardy bane
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is this linespacing matching the top solid linewidth in slicer? or are you supposed to have 2x more lines here? indicating printer is placing a line more or less right on top of the previous line when alternating direction so that the plastic has nowere to go, nozzle pressure causes undulations/waves around the line etc..

hardy bane
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yes, this looks like left going lines are 100% overlapping on the previous right going line in some areas since we can see the two narrow wavy lines on each side (plastic forced outside on each side of the previous line)

noble light
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Here is the same printed part as before just a little bit clearer

hardy bane
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The left vs right doesnt matter it was just an example. But you can not tune EM correctly with this going on.. i guess you could print a long narrow cube with only perimeters, so that all "fill" is going in the same direction as the top right cube when tuning flow/em,

noble light
hardy bane
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sounded like you were stumming around 90hz on Y belts and 80hz on lower belts? If this is a 500 size machine Then isn't that a very high belt tension? idk. i think mine plays around 75 on the lower belt and 60ish on the top belt, (i have a VC 3.1 500 hybrid)

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if you have binding somewhere in the motion system it could get worse with high tension..

noble light
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Yes normaly I have less tension I just tested this yesterday if it does anything

I will set the upper belts on 60Hz and the lower on 75 hz

noble light
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Here I have 0,71

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But it should be 0,84

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(One line is 0.42)

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I just had 40hz on the upper belts

noble light
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Is this normal ?

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You have to watch with sound

hardy bane
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I measure / compare tension with the gantry pushed to the back.

noble light
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And then you have these values 😱 isn’t it way to much ?

hardy bane
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maybee you have a belt that is rubbing on a bearing flange, if fame is not alligned then belt will often rise or lower depending on direction.

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Yes i set my tension a bit too high myself as well, my gantry is a bit hard to push also, but at least it is the same in both directions. (i have hybrid so all 4 steppers rotate when i push the gantry back/forward. side to side it is a bit easier bc, then i am rotating just 2 steppers.)

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If everything fails you have the option to go back to basics, (remove a toolhead to rebuild to corexy non-idex) with or without Y(hybrid) motors. But that is a serious job just to troubleshoot..

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with idex it is harder to setup and tune, because you need to use the 2 y motors from the start i think.

noble light
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So After 4 top layers after the infill the gaps are back again

noble light
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This was the 5. layer after infill

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Just up and down which I just thought have no problems

noble light
hardy bane
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Have you tried printing a cylinder in vase mode using same mm3/s flow. it does not show any extrusion problems there? Have you confirmed the extruder/hotend is not the issue by running a max flow test in orca using the same temperature?

noble light
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Yes I reached a max flow of 25 and I am using 15 max flow

noble light
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This was the Pa test tower from yesterday and the outer walls looks good

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But yeah I will test It later with the cylinder and one wall

hardy bane
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you can also go down to 10 flow cap in filament setting. just to remove as many variables as possible. and for simple testprints temperature can also be increased just to lower the viscosity / extrusion force. (it is difficult to know what the nozzle temperature really is as it is very depending on the heat transfer and proper assembled hotend)

noble light
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Yes testet also with just 5 max but yeah I will test this again

noble light
hardy bane
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don' t trust the temperature in mainsail. I'm even struggling printing PLA under 230 degrees with rapido 2 plus using the uhf adapter and tungsten nozzle. and that is with 20mm3 flow limited.

hardy bane
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maybee i should try to stick a termocouple down into the meltzone of my own rapido later today to see what is the temperature with my setup.. i just last week "upgraded" from rapido 1 HF plus to a rapido 2 UHF plus and have had only issuess. until i increased my temperatures a lot.

noble light
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But I will test other temperatures

noble light
hardy bane
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6mm

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m6 threads

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could use a m6 threaded sensor as well, just replace the nozzle with the sensor πŸ€”

bleak shore
noble light
bleak shore
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Or did you just go straight for 4 😁

noble light
bleak shore
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Understood lol

noble light
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Because I left the home and I thought I can print the longest print while I’m gone

noble light
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Now it is to much flow

How much did you set ?

bleak shore
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Uhhhhh

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0.89 but I can double check when I get home

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This looks promising however

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It's consistent

noble light
hardy bane
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there is a very consistent geometric pattern on these prints. could it also be the top fill that is sagging a bit the infill (gyroid?) due to high temp or too little cooling on the top layers ?

bleak shore
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Temp 255, im not sure about fan. Maybe 35%

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Again, gotta check what I sliced when I got home πŸ˜…

hardy bane
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i looked at the file, it was just two top layers. I would be cool to see another attempt but with minimum 5 top layers.

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bcause two top layers is in reality just a bridging flow layer + a single top layer

bleak shore
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I'll slice and send in a few hours, not a bad idea πŸ‘ just didnt wanna waste a bunch of filament and time kekw

noble light
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πŸ˜‚

hardy bane
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the gcodes i looked at was for 0.4

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nevermind, is saw you confirme that the other dayπŸ˜‹

noble light
hardy bane
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Haha my rapido 2 wasn't so wrong anyway. I set the temp to 220 and shoved a 0.8mm probe all the way down to the inside tip of the nozzle. (inside the molten plastic). it was actually super stable and only changed max 0.2degree over a minute.

noble light
hardy bane
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no, didnt think of that.. this was just to check if the temperature reported was correct.

noble light
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Okay even with the max flow of 3 I got holes / gaps

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Hmm maybe the motion system is not the problem because if I go down with the speed the result should be better even if i go down from 15 to 3 max flow πŸ€”

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I also feed the filament by hand directly to the extruder here

bleak shore
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There has to be something wrong with commanded values

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We have verified correct X, Y, Z, and E travel

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So the machine itself is moving the correct distance

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Now is it being commanded the correct extrusion amount

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Based how with my sliced files you get no gaps

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Over-extrusion, sure, but not gaps

noble light
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Maybe the overextension hides the gaps

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I don’t think the slicer have the problem because I use it also for my prusas and bambulabs

bleak shore
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ok here is 0.89 flow and 4 top wall

noble light
noble light
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Very very odd

bleak shore
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would you like less flow?

noble light
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Yes please maybe 2% less

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And maybe just 50x50

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so I can look at it before I go to bed haha

noble light
bleak shore
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other than maybe SLIGHT overextrusion

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but your extrusion is consistent

noble light
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Yes think so too

bleak shore
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I know you said you use this on your bambu... but man it's looking like you just need prusaslicer with a default ratrig profile πŸ˜‚

noble light
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I just tried this πŸ˜‚

bleak shore
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If this next one works I'm just sending you my prusaslicer config file and never ever change anything on it ever kekw

noble light
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Oh hell yes

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If this works

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Im going crazy

bleak shore
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ok if this single one works, final test is to print 4. because it's done gaps everytime you've done a long print

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if the 4 print works... I'd say it's clear and any artifacts after that is just slicer tuning

noble light
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Oh yeah

noble light
bleak shore
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Can you tell a difference between this and the last one

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like is flow working lol

noble light
noble light
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Looks way better can you now make 4 pieces please 😍🀯

bleak shore
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0.85 flow. 25% infill, 4 cubes

noble light
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Tank you

bleak shore
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wait

noble light
bleak shore
noble light
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Perfect

noble light
# bleak shore yessir

So I think we have to less top layers because of the longer layertime I think the cooling goes down for the overhang / first layer after infill

bleak shore
noble light
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Yes but I don’t want to change any values

noble light
bleak shore
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There's no gaps in the one above?

noble light
bleak shore
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Hm

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Ok I send one with 4 top layers

noble light
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Thank you πŸ™

bleak shore
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I'll also drop the temp and up fan a wee bit

noble light
noble light
# bleak shore

So … gaps again
You changed anything in the settings or ?

bleak shore
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Hmm

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I changed temp and fan speed

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That may be causing under extrusion

noble light
bleak shore
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Oh very minor gaps

noble light
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But not on all of these 4

bleak shore
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I strongly feel like your problem lies in temp/fan/flow rate

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I wont be near my computer until sunday but I can maybe manually adjust the hcode for you to do again

noble light
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Okay at the moment I will test with orca slicer again but other fan speed and temp

Do you know which settings you are used before ?

bleak shore
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Before was 15% fan and 255 temp

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0.85 flow

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25% infill

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4 top 2 bottom

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2 walls

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Alternatively

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You can print my gcode again, and when the fan turns on, go into RATOS and turn the fan off and the temp up to 255 and that should be permanent

noble light
noble light
bleak shore
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I disagree

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BUT

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buuuuuttttt

noble light
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😱

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What comes now

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Haha

bleak shore
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You said it does after 4 layers

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6 is kinda crazy

noble light
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Yes

bleak shore
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Though it should work with 6

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I really think that's excessive

noble light
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What do you mean

bleak shore
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I think it just means you need to run 4 top layers πŸ˜‚

noble light
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πŸ˜‚

bleak shore
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If you need more strength, more walls, or more infill

noble light
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But this can’t be the solution πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

bleak shore
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But 6, may be preventing excess filament from expanding into the infill like you explained before

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100% infill has always caused issues

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And doing 6 solid top layers is similar

noble light
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Yes but why I mean this isn’t normal

bleak shore
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Hmm

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Ok one more test

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60% fan

noble light
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Tonight u will print a print with minimum speed so acc to 200 for all max flow 1 and jerk 0,5 for all

bleak shore
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Oh

noble light
bleak shore
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Ahh ok

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Because im thinking it could be partly dumping so much heat into the top layers

noble light
noble light
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In 10 min we knew mor

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More

bleak shore
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KNOWLEDGE JULIAN KNOWLEDGE

noble light
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Okay the first test looks great

noble light
bleak shore
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I think we are on to something

noble light
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Yes I think / hope too

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I should go to sleep haha but I can’t

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πŸ˜‚

bleak shore
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maybe 50% fan?

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No sleep, must science

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(but go to bed if you need lmao)

noble light
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I test now less temperature (225) and 60% fan

bleak shore
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πŸ‘οΈπŸ‘„πŸ‘οΈ

noble light
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Really odd

bleak shore
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Temp is significant drop but im here for it

noble light
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Less temperature and Moore fan looks now like overextending

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Overextruding

bleak shore
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That is odd. Still at 0.85 flow?

noble light
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But we will see the result in a few minutes

noble light
bleak shore
noble light
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Little Little gaps

bleak shore
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Slightly higher temp

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Or more flow

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But you're nailing it

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If it's not curling the fan speed is good

noble light
bleak shore
noble light
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This was with 225 and 60 % fan speed

bleak shore
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More temp

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You went more down kekw

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Less temp = less flow

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More temp more flow

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Compromise: 240c

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This looks good though

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Especially with ABS

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225c is a little on the cold end

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Especially when you're trying to push around 30mm^3/s

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But even on standard/older printers

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250c is the average

noble light
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Okay now I print with 240 but I go to bed and write tomorrow morning

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I have 3 pieces

One very fast
One very slow
And one normal

bleak shore
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Look forward to it! Nice work, making progress again :)

noble light
# bleak shore Look forward to it! Nice work, making progress again :)

Thank you vor your help
I hope so 🀞 (what I think is … maybe the rapido 2 UHF needs more speed for the printing so maybe without the UHF it is better because also the dragon hotend I tested have the UHF and to compromise the UHF I need less temperature and more fan … but just a thought) and now good night I will update you tomorrow

And thank you again πŸ‘

noble light
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This was very very slow (50mm/s speed for everything and 1 jerk for everything and 500mm/s)
And it looks perfect … this is the result I want

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This was fast (5000mm/s)

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Looks okay also without gaps

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And here is the β€žnormalβ€œ I am printing with every time this one have gaps again

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At the moment I print these again just with the change that it prints by object and not by layer

noble light
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Another interesting thing is that also the parts from Ratrig have this problem …

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This is the plate between the x and y Motor just saw this last week while I am rebuilding the xy cube

bleak shore
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I wouldn't worry too much about ratrigs parts

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I think however, we're changing a little too many variables at once to get good conclusions

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(at least im getting confused now lol)

bleak shore
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Now the surface quality is good on this

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With minor gaps

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These gaps are classic underextrusion

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So we bump the flow a little bit back up from before

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I wanna reiterate though that I think we are proving this is not a printer issue (as your printer has followed commanded values exactly).

We are simply just at a difficult filament tuning stage

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And ABS is not the easiest to print with

noble light
noble light
noble light
bleak shore
bleak shore
noble light
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So this was the result of the normal speed from the object by object thing

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And this is same temp same fan but just a little bit faster in the settings

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Now I try the exact same with 260 degrees

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Same settings just 260 degrees

noble light
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Soooo

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240 degrees 1% more flow 60% fan

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And I have a usable result

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Maybe 1% more flow and then

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I will start the big test over night πŸ˜‚

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Fingers crossed

noble light
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I don’t know why but the 5th top layer looks perfect and the 6th have gaps

I changed the Acceleration for the toppest layer to 3000 like the 5th layer in the hope it looks the same but no I got more gaps then before πŸ˜‚πŸ‘

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And I also set 1% more flow

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But yeah more gaps

bleak shore
noble light
noble light
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So this one was again with the same acc as massive infill but I change the line with to 0.4 for the top layer instead of 0,42

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I can’t explain this to me why does the fan changes this result

noble light
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Okay don’t think we have it

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I printed these with the same settings as this one

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The walls are good so I think we can really say that the mechanic of the printer is good

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I mean the layertime is much longer on these prints

bleak shore
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I agree, I think the mechanics are good

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(also you look very close on your first layer, this wont affect top tho lol)

noble light
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I think I will give it a try to reset the complete firmware

bleak shore
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Hmm

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Couldnt hurt

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Also top layer should be 0.45 not 0.42/0.4?

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Or am I mistaken?

noble light
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As I know 0.4 is the best because we also have a 0.4 mm nozzle the other values are possible too but the best should be 0.4 is what I know

bleak shore
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Look what I found on this CNC kitchen video

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From most of what I've seen, (including default settings) 120-150% is common for extrusion width.

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Watch if you feel so inclined :)

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Could we try this:
240c
60% fan
0.9 flow
2 walls
6 top layers
Line width for ALL layers 0.45

noble light
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I will try this later

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Thanks for this πŸ‘

noble light
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Now I am printing different models

  • 0.48 layer lines
  • 0.45 layer lines
    -0.42 layer lines
  • 0.4 layer lines
arctic flicker
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but not yet found a solution. I suspect it is related to the mesh (although I have only .15 deviation) as this usually only ocures >7mm in z

noble light
noble light
arctic flicker
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the prints have all multiple layers of infill

noble light
arctic flicker
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my though is atm that there is maybe some sort of either phase out of the mesh or maybe bi-metal effect after certain z

noble light
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I don’t think so because I got perfect first layers and also I have an titanium tube

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And also I got perfect 1 layers oder 400x400

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But the top is trash

arctic flicker
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that is interesting

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is it just the top layer or also top -1?

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on mine top-1 is perfect and top shit

noble light
bleak shore
noble light
arctic flicker
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And if you reduce the thickness to I.e 5mm the top surface is not overextended?

noble light
arctic flicker
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In my case I observe the overextrusion pattern usually if z > 7mm

noble light
arctic flicker
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RR tech support claims this is warping but for me I can exclude that

noble light
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Yes this is not warping 100% not

arctic flicker
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Prusaslicer 2.9?

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Your orbiter filament path is aligned I guess?

noble light
noble light
arctic flicker
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Very interesting that we have different setups but experience the same

noble light
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Oh yes what machine do you have

arctic flicker
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2x 400 VC4 idex

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Both have the issue

noble light
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But sorry to say but I am happy I am not alone haha

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Hmm okay

arctic flicker
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But no ti tube

noble light
arctic flicker
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No just updated to current

noble light
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Okay

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I will try it now

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I can’t flash the board πŸ€” it says it falsh the board but then it is again on the false firmware

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At first I will go on

noble light
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So with everything default just the flow of the Ratrig abs profile to 0.93 (which I used in orca before)

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Minimalistic gaps

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Now I make IS and put the fan to 30-50%

noble light
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Okay it gets worse

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Now I just try the settings from Bambu

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Tomorrow I will see the result

noble light
bleak shore
arctic flicker
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These are 100x100x2,9 that look great - just a bit too much overlap

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Yesterday exactly same settings but 8.8mm height of top layer and no warping at all - was perfectly flat on bed

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Today same settings and part just 6.8mm height of top layer and moved it 2cm to the back as the bed mesh (.15deviation in total) has on the front the high point. Cannot show this one better as it is still printing. Top layer is perfect

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This is why I say ai have absolutely no clue πŸ˜‚

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For my two VC4s I can tell it is somehow correlated to height of the top solid infill layer and maybe to positioning of the part

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But I am far away of narrowing down the cause

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BTW all PLA

noble light
noble light
arctic flicker
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Another part same settings but random underextrusion in one corner (also no warping)

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Yes could be. Anyway, Iβ€˜ll follow this thread. Sorry that I am not really a help

noble light
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Yes but my problem is not in one corner my problem is random in the mid of a print and just gaps not completely underextrusion

noble light
arctic flicker
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Do you have the same experience with a different material/brand and if it is idex also with T1?

noble light
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Yes tested Petg and ASA and tool 1 also

arctic flicker
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And same gcode on different printer comes out perfect?

noble light
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Don’t know

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Don’t find anyone who can print it for me πŸ˜‚

arctic flicker
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And with slightly adjusted settings on another brand?

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You can send it to me I can print it

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But the other one is really misaligned 😁

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But please PLA settings

noble light
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Okay I will make later one with pla and send it to you

Thank you very much this shows 100% if it is printer related or software

noble light
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This was the settings from Bambu and till now no gaps I will print now the longer print which always have this problem 🀞

noble light
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I think despite all this that the problem is mechanical because it is so irregular. And if I print very slowly it’s gone.

Possibly the belt tension is not correct or the motors have a problem

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After the tests with pla later I think I would go back to hybrid and try then

noble light
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Don’t look at the edge I had a too high travel speed and that’s why I have a few layer offset

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This is 1h and 16 minutes

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43g of filament

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Can you print this ?

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Please

swift chasm
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[bed_mesh]
horizontal_move_z: 2
mesh_min: 30,30
mesh_max:470,450
probe_count: 40,40
fade_start: 1.0
fade_end: 10.0
mesh_pps: 2,2
algorithm: bicubic
bicubic_tension: .2

noble light
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What is the difference between relative extrusion on and off ?

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Back to hybrid

noble light
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Oh fuck yes it looks very very good

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Now I start the print which always fails πŸ˜‚

arctic flicker
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What was the result?

noble light
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But looks really good I think

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This was with 94% and the other (the picture before) was 97% now I print with 96%

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And I got a huge better speed

arctic flicker
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100% fan this thing is screaming πŸ˜‚

arctic flicker
noble light
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You have the wholes too πŸ€”

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That is exactly my error

arctic flicker
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And on hybrid gone?

noble light
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At the moment the last test is printing

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Is ready in about 1 hour

noble light
noble light
arctic flicker
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Can you send me the stl?

noble light
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I will send you later

noble light
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And my IS is MzV and ZV so yeah I think I don’t will go back to Idex for a time 😁

noble light
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Next successful print
Now I print 10 of these in one print

noble light
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Think its really working now πŸ₯°

soft stream
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beautiful prints!

noble light
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So the final test if this prints without an error then I would say it is solved

But if I go back to Idex I don’t know if it comes back πŸ˜©πŸ€”

noble light
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So perfect print

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I think I can say I can finally use this machine and love it

hardy bane
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Nicechefkiss i also am going to print the Chonk parts as well soon. But the big parts are scary. What material u used? Did it end up without warp?

noble light
hardy bane
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Amazing to print this big in ABS wihout warp. When you slice the big bottom plate with some sort of CF filament, doses the slicer calcualte less than 1kg will be used? when i sliced for PET-CF, 25% gyroid and 4 walls it came out scary close to 1kg. dont remember bu tit was like 996g or something. What are the strength settings you use or recommend?

noble light
noble light
hardy bane
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most exiting filament change after emptying a whole expensive roll on a part. Be carefull with the splicer method on such brittle filament, the splice might snap in bowden before it even reaches the hotend. Perhaps better is to stay close and monitor the filament transition, then you could just push the next filament behind the other until it is grabbed by the extrudergears.

noble light
noble light
noble light
karmic cloud
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So what was the problem in the end?

noble light