Respawn System Suggestions For Official PvP

[long dust]

I get that its not going away but this update really does make nesting and killing dragons on PvP official just not worth anything at all. All the larger clans will have 18A within the first week on every dragon in the game so far with the spawn stat change, then you will have people with Dom within a few days of hitting that. You will be able to have A+ & A++ dragons respawn after fights and the parents of that dragon are then obsolete. Unless someone wants to spend all that time running to hatchie ponds killing everything making hatchie killing 100% worse. There is also no guaranty that you would kill that hatchie as they could just log it out and grow it later.

It turns this game basically into PvE all around we shouldn't have to throw away our months of hard work and dedication to go to a privet PvP server that has it off or to just shelf breeders that we will never pull out again unless someone gets truly unlucky and dies on a baby. It ruins the core of the game in my opinion there will be no satisfaction in killing a dragon no point in getting in big fights. If you find and kill a breeder again there is no point. There should still be some sort of punishment to losing your dragon not just having to regrow it. If you're smart about it growing is no issue.

I get people wanted it but please dont force it on all PvP official servers. Keep it for the PvE servers and maybe one PvP server and if people dont want to stay on the server that has it let them move their dragons to a different server. That way people who still want to play without it dont have to and there will still be a sense of loss and satisfaction in fights. People aren't going to play smart with their dragons anymore people are not going to care as they will likely just throw things knowing they could get them back. Its also just going to cause more hell for people even trying to grow when its already a big complaint now. People will no longer be nice to anyone growning a lot of people dont kill hatcies if they aren't in a claimed area now its just going to be camped and killed no mater what it wont matter.

TLDR:

main points:

• respawn will cause a lot more hatcie killing
• no point in nesting after you get what you want
• killing anything in PvP will no longer matter
• don't make the respawn all Official servers

Please either drop stats on respawn so there's a reason for nesters to still be a thing or leave it out on some official PvP servers losing a dragon should have consequences. Tie it to eldering or where you're at 50% elder/elder then allow people to respawn hitting juvi is way to easy.

[round kite]

I definitely think it should be reworked to where you only get 1 do-over with the dragon you died on and once that is used you dont get a 3rd+ chance. Like maybe you spawn in with a respawn pearl that is automatically locked to you and it vanishes if you use it once you die marking your inability to use it again. Hate me for saying this but a kill is a kill, it's still worth killing a dragon even if they get it back due to this. BUT I agree yes it will cause hatchie killing to be 1000% worse due to this and will make the game more toxic to new and current players than it already is. I think it is an amazing feature to save newbies time and effort which I love. But there needs to be a middle ground rather than restart at point A for eternity in the game with the same dragon over and over.

[untold stirrup]

Didn't the mans himself literally say once that the dragon would only be respawn-able if you hit Elder? Am I missing something? Or at least considered.

If we're gonna be getting 4 Ticks a Day now, PLUS Elder Crystals appearing on our Compass-- it's going to make Eldering much easier. I find reaching Elder a reasonable counter to being able to respawn.

[opal garden]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1058438612032700446/1352789916655943830/image.png?ex=67df4b49&is=67ddf9c9&hm=9b2b18e90add3abecff7c46b1c26380f812fce1f7c37d76119a7543ec0e7ee0e&

[tropic stream]

I'm gonna be honest... The advantage of this system is that there will be no "breeders". Breeders are also fighters now, fighters are also breeders. You shouldn't have to stay logged out of a "breeding" account 95% of the time - you should be able to actually play your dragons. This change also helps smaller clans and solo players that don't have the resources to keep separate breeders.

At the same time, I do recognize the change will likely result in the pvp servers becoming static - there will be pvp for the sake of pvp, but part of the fun is trying to overthrow the dominant clans, and if they lose nothing, that is simply not possible anymore (although smaller clans would be able to level the playing field more easily because the dominant clans won't be able to prevent them from up starting, either).

I do like the do-over pearl someone suggested. Another way to balance this would be to reduce a few stats by 1 level every time you respawn. So if you die once in an 18A, no big deal. You've got your skins and most of your stats, but you're now 16A 2B+. However, if you're careless and die again, now you're 13A 4B+ 1B. Etc. etc. You wouldn't lose all your hard-won upstats in one go, but there is a penalty for being careless and dying repeatedly. This would also force you to breed again to achieve 18A. Servers could tune how many stats are reduced and how many levels each stat is reduced by via server settings - eg one private server could have 0 stats reduced (full respawn) on death, and another server could choose to have all 18 stats reduced to spawn values (current game, except you keep the skin) on death. This would give server owners a lot of control over how hardcore their server is to their player base

I think that locking respawn to elder kind of defeats the point of trying to make pvp more friendly to casual players, though. I would maybe lock it to adult, especially if it adds the stat penalty I previously mentioned.

[long dust]

He already said he won't be doing the stat reduction so thats out of the question he said it during the live. As for it being a pealr thats fine too but if its just an in game thing its extremely op and that needs to hbe held to a higher standered. This update ultamently could end up killing not only new player base potential but also old since there will be an increase in spawn killing. It will make the game dull and as you put it static.

If I wanted PvP for the sake of PvP theres dethmatch and no grow servers. It sucks that some people dont have the means to separate breeders and fighters but a lot of clans have people who dont really want to fight and are fine holding breeders. No one is forced to fight on a breeder if they dont want to. No one is forced to be a breeder if they dont want to. Though breeding is 50% of the game and this is just killing that chunck of the game. We dont even have skin crafting yet and that again is breeding based. This is really unfortunately when they just did a dragon to help with this and the entire next update and they're also killing that aspect of the game at the same time. Also if breeding was to not matter there wouldnt be a trait for it nor would there be stats. It is a massive part of the game as it makes it a reason to have a clan. The game as it is isn't really supposed to play solo you can of course but it wasn't built for solo players it was built for clans. As for being a casual player there are private servers with 2x growth and such stuff like that. It would work if it was for private only servers and not all official. It shouldn't be forced on all the official server players.

[opal garden]

100%

[tropic stream]

I didn't watch the live, so I didn't know that. Besides, it hasn't been the first time that the devs have changed their plans based on feedback, and honestly personally the main thing I want from a respawn mechanic is to not lose everything it took months to create in a few seconds. I think partially reducing stats fits that pretty well if it's tuned carefully.

Honestly I think we should try playing it and see what happens. Hatchling killing won't prevent respawning - as long as you remain in the session you originally died as an older dragon, you can respawn again and again. It could cause an increase of hatchling killing, but it could also not if clans realize it is futile and not achieving what they want. If it does have issues, I'm pretty sure the devs will adjust the mechanic. It's happened with eldering twice now already.

Finally - the official servers should be catering to casual players too. It's a bad idea to say that the officials should all be hardcore and if you want a less soul-sapping experience then you have to find an unofficial

[long dust]

I didnt say dont put it on all official servers nor did I say every server should be hard core. I did say just dont put it on every server that way official players have both options. Also with legacy style nesting what took months to create with the original nesting system will take hours/days depending on the dragon with the new E spawn stats + the changes to nesting and the brood. So everyone that does have dedicated ACC's for nesters or just people who just want to nest do not become obsolete once you have 18A on dragons with the crits they want. They will just be able to respawn that dragon again making the parents of it obsolete in the end.

Again it also takes away the satisfaction of over throwing clans or making someone lose something good. You said that yourself as well in your first post. Fights will start to become mondaine as theres no risk so theirs no reward. Winning a fight and wanting to go look for nesters or things like that after or later drive a lot of people to explore the map. Now there will be no point since that baby can just come back constantly. Hitting juvie is not hard, its even easier if you keep growth buff. The only thing I can se remotely being satisfying is killing an elder but even thats not going to be that hard anymore with the crystal marking and the 4 ticks a day.

If this was the case nesting should have been removed from the game entirely or at least the stat part of it as there is little to no point now once you hit that cap. Plus theres no skin crafting so no point in rolling for skins or anything of that nature. Theres no reason to be renested after the respawn system is implemented.

[tropic stream]

I don't think the game should be prevented from changing to a system that doesn't require you to keep multiple accounts because it's previous system required multiple accounts for nesters. The fact that the game required dedicated secondary accounts for nesting was bad from the get-go. And the parents aren't obsolete- they're still able to be good fighters in their own right, which is what pvp is about anyways.

Also, while large clans of course have the resources to be able to nest up to 18A in hours to days, smaller clans do not. If you make the nesting such that large clans take weeks to months to hit 18A, small clans are also extended out to months to years to achieve the same stats.

I really think mildly reducing some stats would be a good way to make sure killing something good still has meaning and that overthrowing clans is still possible. But a valid strategy clans have used in the past is scorched earth - camping another clan and systematically killing them on sight until their stats and desire to play the game is destroyed and that causes players to stop playing, and isn't healthy for the game long term. Clans should not be able to bully other players off a server. The new respawn system will likely prevent this. Do I think it will need patches to tweak the respawn mechanic to be more balanced with breeding? Yes, I think that's almost certainly going to need to happen once we see how it changes pvp live. But I don't think that's a reason not to have it at all on official pvp servers

[thin pilot]

Hey its been a while! On the clans going scorched earth subject, I don't think the fact that they keep their stats will prevent that, because the opportunity to camp hatchie spawns indefinitely can absolutely still break the spirit of someone and force them off the game regardless if they keep the stats or not, it will just take longer. Those stats are useless if they never make it out of baby yknow? Also in the process more casual unclanned or new folks can get caught in the crossfire making their experience FAR worse unfortunately.

[long dust]

He said that he won't be doing a stat change to the respawn system as it "defeats the purpose of having it." So that argument is obsolete. No one is required to have multiple accounts its ultamently a personal decision no one is forced to buy more than one account. Breeders are not ment to be fighters they are there to replace dragons that are lost thats the point an now they can't do that so there is no point in having them.

Truly players should have a choice in playing with or without the respawn just like when 1.0 came out they had the option of playing on a server with group damage or not. I dont see how this is any different nor do I see how giving players a choice in it is wrong.

Even small clans will be able to get 18A in a short amount of time with the new nesting system. This again is ripping out a good chunk of the game when all we have right now is nesting, growing, and fighting. Theres no big AI to fight nothing else to do. Its effectively killed part of the game and its not fair to the people who already have those extra accounts for breeding. Nor is it fair to the people who have set nests for hours apon hours to get the stats you have that you can basicly get from an E spawn now.

In all honesty this will most likely make hatcie killing worse as clans will be trying to make sure things can't respawn at this point. Its going to probably cause a "scorched earth" effect as you would call it.

[nocturne nimbus]

Ironically, you have part of that one backwards. We are not supposed to have to have multi accounts, or dedicated breeder players forbidden from participating.

Multiaccounting was discouraged from the get go by the devs. Iirc the statement was along the lines of 'we're not going to stop you, but know that this is not intended play and we're not going to cater to this playstyle as the game develops'

A major part of the reason we have respawns coming in is player statements about not wanting/willing to play the game because they would lose their stats (or worse being pressured into not playing the game by clanmates out of fear of losing their stats/breeders)

A part of the game incentivzes not playing, much like the passive-only eldering system.

So they're changing it.

[brazen plover]

The respawn system is only going to promote hatchie killing even more and spawn camping even more. The BIGGEST complaint in PVP servers is hatchie killing…PVE players say it all the time…it’s not a good idea to just give em respawn if you make it to juvi. He should make it once you hit elder, you can get a respawn on THAT dragon and that’s it. It adds a benefit for eldering your dragon.

[long dust]

I never said you had to but you can if you want again its a personal choice no one is forcing you so i dont see how this is backwards. Just like for example the Isle its supposed to be a one account thing but there are people out there that have more than one. If someone is being pressured then maybe they shouldnt be part of that clan if they dont want to be a breeder then they dont have to be a breeder. Again its a personal choice no one can force anything on anyone if it is thats on them they are the ones letting them force stuff on them. I dont see how this still is going incentivize playing a dragon you're eldering as you would still be ticking or whatever so that still doesnt negate the fact that you wouldnt be playing that dragon.

[nocturne nimbus]

Allow me to elaborate.
As a clan, you have two options.

Someone buys alts.
Or multiple someones agree to not play the game in order to be breeders.

It's a no win situation.
Buying alts, choosing not to play. Sure that's technically a choice. But someone has to. That's the meta. That's the only way a clan can keep stats.

And that's garbage. So the devs are changing the meta.
Respawns mean the players who are breeders can now actually play the game. They can fight, they can explore, they can hang out in the server. that is what the devs intended us to do.

[long dust]

You can always do a trade off when you're in a clan if breeders were supposed to be fighters they would have changed this back in legacy breeders were never ment to be in fights. They have bad turn radius and are slow there is no point in being in a breeder in a fight unless you're trying to throw that dragon. Not one person has to hold breeders on every dragon, they can hold breeders for their least favorite dragon to fight on and then have the rest as a fighter that way it still free's up the account since you can have one of each dragon on every account. This is extremely possible for people in clans but ripping out a whole mechanic of a game when its built for Clan v Clan PvP isnt right. People are ment to work together in this game its not really built for solo. It was built so people have to work together if they want to make it this way nesting shouldn't be a thing at all since there will no point in being a breeder at all after you nest what you want in. Especially now when nesters cant even skin craft, I dont see the point in a whole nesting update if in the end you're just making them more obsolete.

[thin pilot]

This last point is extremely important for some to see i think, this game was built with clans/group play in mind. I believe that Jao even said as much at one point.

[nocturne nimbus]

The point is to make it that breeders can still play, you dont have to sit out on the game so your clan can do good.

We don't have to have players be the sacrificial goats.

Yes, yes, personal choice. But someone in a clan has to, and we could just not

Our stats are still communal, but that doesn't mean parts of the community shouldn't be able to play with the rest of us.

[sudden charm]

^^^^ If its making people Not Want To Play The Game perhaps making that part of the game the top priority and sole focus that all other mechanics are based on is a Bad Idea as well. Like theres nothing stopping the devs from changing it if people actively Do Not Like having to rely on others constantly or can't play the game because they carry nesters or, frankly, even simply are not that great at the game and are getting supremely punished for the time sink. Its not making breeding or killing pointless, its making it less of a chore for the people that play the most casually AND for the hardcore nesters.

To below: Its almost like they should make growing hatchling Less Of A Chore as well. No, the growth buff is not sufficient at the moment when hatchlings cannot fight for themselves and still take upwards of 30 minutes to get to the point where you can do anything + the immense risk of going out and getting food every five minutes is.

@ kitten it only makes killing "pointless" if you put any amount of worth on ruining a player's day. Kill to win the fight, kill for bragging rights, whatever, but when you put so much focus on destroying hours to months of someone's effort, rather than just winning a battle in video game, that's inherently nasty.

[opal garden]

I don’t mean to sound rude here, but I need to ask. Are you actively in a clan? A pvp clan right now playing with one, in its current state. From the beginning of pvp till now. Or are you just speaking on “how it’s meant to be played”?

And before someone here replies to my message and asks, “well what does this matter.” It shouldn’t matter but it does.

This change is huge to pvp and yes will change the whole meta and game. Some may think it’s great, others disagree.

Players from the small side of communities and clans don’t entirely see or know how bad things can get. I mean, I’m sure the old 1337 ERA brings some memories that are good and bad to people, but you had to be in the middle of it to see how mentally draining it was.

This change will affect the toxicity of the game, hatchi killing WILL get worse. That’s just how it’s gonna be.

You can argue it won’t, but it will. People are toxic and rude. There is no getting around it, everything will get eaten.

Everyone will complain, it’s just how to game is, there are so many toxic people. And there are people that kill babies just because, they’re in a territory or they are too close to one. Or they have a skin that the other clans have.

It’s gonna happen 10x worse now.

[long dust]

@nocturne nimbus
If breeders are to be in fights then they wouldn't have the set backs as with flying and turning. Breeding points should not be a thing at this point it should take the same time for every dragon to lay a nest you should be able to pick genders and such without points then. Breeding would not have been seperated if that was the intent in the end. Stats should not be in the game at all and it should be taken out if thats the case. There is no point in having a breeder at that point as they will become obsolete in the end the only reason people would want a renest is for a skin and we cant even do that right now as we dont have skin crafting. The people who have been on nests and working for it for months are just getting back handed with this update since they really wont be needed anymore after a few weeks of work.

@sudden charm
Nesting is a big part of the game and literally the only thing to do outside of fighting and growing. It is making breeding and killing pointless as there is no sense of loss in PvP which is what PvP is about. It used to be a huge blow to clans that lost a breeder or a good stated dragon now they will just have it back in a few hours what's the point? I have had many clan members not care about growing an E spawn to fight on but also are super appreciative when they are nested in on something good. When a clan member has taken the time to get those stats and get that for them but all the work that has been put into geting the stats people have currently is going down the drain. All that struggle for months will have no point in the end its sad and as a person who has struggled with all the breeding over the months this is heart breaking as in the end I know my breeder wont matter anymore.

[thin pilot]

I would also like to say in addition to what aleyne and kitten both said, as they are dead on, it seems like the belief is that nesting and breeding is the "boring part" or that people "don't get to play the game" if that's what their doing, when in reality there is a good number of folks that play the game exclusively for the breeding/nesting/social aspects and couldnt care less about fighting. This change could very well make those people not want to play the game as well. It's important to look at this issue from all perspectives. Most clan members, including myself, were solo and struggled at some point so i do see the points introduced, but the fact of the matter is we've seen what motivates hatchie killing and this will make it all the more toxic for everyone involved.

[mossy lotus]

Damn i can no life this game for a week to get all 18a then stop playing (perfect)

[sudden charm]

With the way the respawn works, people will still lose their dragons. People already die on hatchies all the time, on account of the general 'growing hatchies still kinda sucks' issue, plus people that crash in the middle of fights, which is more common than should ever be allowed in a game like this, won't be able to respawn. Additionally, people will want to recustomize, especially as more skins/color combos come out, so breeders will always have a place in nesting even without their clan members dying.

[nocturne nimbus]

Yes. Active breeder in a small clan.

And it's a massive pain to get anyone other then myself to not die to things and get us wiped to the ground.

It's not a "working together" in a small clan, it's someone makes the sacrifice so the rest of us can play

And it shouldn't be

I've been here since the early days of the alpha when the only food in game was each other
It takes time for people to realize that hatchie killing isn't effective, isn't necessary. But ~somehow~ we're all still here aren't we? Hatchie killing isn't still the only thing people choose to eat even tho there's other food. Even though that was what people were choosing to do for weeks after food was added to the game.

Will it be bad for a bit? Sure. Was it bad after mega clans wiped entire servers at a time? Sure. But they'll realize, even if we have to shove it down their throats. They need to calm down. And they will. And they have. Trolls get bored and wander off, they pick other targets when they realize they can't get their jollies anymore.

@long dust
Stat choices bring complexity to any game. Choices that matter even more so. Do you want that turn radius, or do you want to help your clan upstat faster? that's why that is there. So there is not just one meta. By that logic the devs should remove every dragon that isn't the SS. There's choices to drive complexity, because complexity makes things meaningful when you chose them. It's like asking an RPG to have just one class to choose from.

You play very many MMOs? Any looter shooters? Then you'd know that a meta is only ever temporary. What's important is that you gave your clan the edge then. Meta changes and we all change with it and dig our work into the new system. This is always how it is with games with active development.

How is it a slap in the face? You thought an early access game would have one meta forever?

@thin pilot don't get me wrong, I like breeding, I do it a lot. But I don't like to sit on a nest for 40 minutes staring at the wall just to log off and not be allowed to fight anything ever because my clanmates can't keep a bloodline going without me being benched to hold the stats. we can have both.

[fallow ore]

This is the exact reason I've been dreading the update. It'll make being clanless or in small clans a living Hell because the big & toxic clans will wreak havoc & go on hatchie killings near 24/7

@sudden charm "No, the growth buff is not sufficient at the moment when hatchlings cannot fight for themselves and still take upwards of 30 minutes to get to the point where you can do anything + the immense risk of going out and getting food every five minutes is. "
Womp womp?? Get better at growing? Even then, a respawn feature is NOT the answer to this, a growth buff was a good step in the right direction, something else can be a burrow feature for babies. We can look at other games for examples, COS has a saturation feature that gives a 50% growth buff, whats stopping DoD from doing something similar?

"With the way the respawn works, people will still lose their dragons. People already die on hatchies all the time, on account of the general 'growing hatchies still kinda sucks' issue"
I've been playing for some time, its not as hard as you think to grow, with the way the respawn feature will be working, no one is losing a damn thing, people aren't stupid, maybe the few 12 year olds who go out killing the moment they hit juvie will lose dragons, but those who've played for a long time won't be losing a thing. The only way anyone is losing a dragon is if a clan goes off hatchie killing.

[long dust]

Its built into the game to die if you want more hands you should recruit small clans have it rough its why we started with a small clan server that in the end didnt matter as it was still large and the larger clans came for the population. You seem to think that having a breeder in a fight is going to benefit you and its really not its just gonna cause more frustration in the end. As well as causing a ton more hatchie killing and its never really stopped but I have seen clans just leave hatching alone. This update they will just die on sight as you dont know if its a dragon you just killed or something you killed before theres just no point everything will die and it will get more toxic than it is now. Not every official server needs to have this that way people have a choice in if they want to deal with it or not. This update is turning it into a sandbox game insted of a survival game. This is a suvival game not an MMO shooter. Again people can go to privet servers that have it on or a DM if they dont want the repercutions of losing a dragon. Go on a 2x growth server if you want more casual play it just shouldn't be forced on all official PvP servers.

@nocturne nimbus
"Stat choices bring complexity to any game."

You're right and I like the fact that breeding and stats are in the game but they were not built to be fighters is what you dont seem to get. They were built to nest and defend their nests as the bite was more powerful but you would still get shredded if you get shot or flamed. You cant really dont much on a breeder I should know i've done it since legacy its part of the reason I enjoy the game I like being able to sit and just nest my friends to get what they want. Though even needing to throw a breeder is frustrating as the flight and fighting is bad do to it being slower and less agile.

"How is it a slap in the face? You thought an early access game would have one meta forever?"

No, I dont expect it to have one meta forever. If you chose to be a breeder and see it as an L thats on you. As for it being a slap in the face it is as people have stat 100s of nests just to get to B's and C's in a line that you can now just get with an E spawn after this update. What took time and hard work will now be able to be built up in hours or days. Making it easier is fine but dont sit here and act like people wont be mad about it and even when skin crafting comes out a player will still have to have points in breeding to get the stats and skins. Likely you will have to be elder for you to get that dragon where you want it again and still people will say dont fight on that breeder cuz we will want it for later if thats the case. So in the end that "breeder" still wont be able to play as you will have to be prog or elder with 4th point to even do the skin crafting making people still have to save those dragons making that argument invalid in the end.

[thin pilot]

Okay a couple of things here, and please trust me when I say I'm not intending for this to sound combative when I say all this. I've also been around since the alpha, we have the same color name, and you say that the trolls will go away and get bored and have, so if that is true than why is hatchie killing such an incredibly high problem among solos and clanless, that never went away. And it will in fact get worse with this change because it introduces a new strategy to try and keep enemy clans down. I still maintain that E spawns coming on as Juvie would be infinitely more helpful to smaller clans/clanless as it at least gives a chance to escape/fight back.

On to your personal experience as a breeder, listen i get it too, ask my clan how many nests they've ever seen me on. I play this game purely for the fight and being with friends, so breeding would be an actual purgatory for me. BUT just because you feel that way about breeding in a small clan doesn't speak to everyone's experience, like i said before there are people who would LOVE to never fight and just sit nests all day and if you mess up their breeding plan you better find a big rock to hide under, but you'll never see them in a fight because they don't want to. If you feel as if you're being forced to do something in a game with your clan that's a clan structure issue, I mean that with all respect. Your clanmates shouldn't make you feel like you are sacrificing your fun to keep their stats up. And that's where the problem is, too many people are looking at it from their personal perspectives and not taking into account the thoughts that others might have and their playstyles. There are all kinds in this community from the absolute most toxic fighters, to the breeders who are more than happy to nest an entire clan in while watching 2 seasons of an anime, and everything in between. Making it to where if a fight happens and a high stated elder gets killed, and they MIGHT spawn back in with the same stats rather than logging off, what do you think the enemy is going to do to make sure that dragon stays dead? They can't be sure of which hatchie it is, so to be sure that dragon with those stats stay dead, they'll kill every single one they can find. Which doesn't sound fun for people that don't have clans or just joined the game.

[mossy lotus]

next time i fight im going to be camping spawns for 3 hours, we wont be rotating for crystals anymore but hatchies ponds

[sudden charm]

Ergo, there should probably be some more changes regarding growing hatchies (rather than scrap the respawn) since people are threatening to do everything they can to ruin people's work regardless of the respawn mechanic. I really don't think breeders are going to be "pointless" you cant really have both issues with the current upcoming state of the respawn mechanic - as usual its a step in the right direction, but not actually enough to solve anything.

[fallow ore]

https://tenor.com/view/egg-boi-hazbin-hotel-hazbin-egg-hazbin-egg-boi-sir-pentious-gif-8855539442158400665

This is why I've been dreading this update, there are some toxic players that would do this & make the game Hell for everyone involved. Hatchie killing will just get worse & there will be little to no repercussions for dying as a juvie & above. & sorry, not sorry, but like half this game is just toxic players

[opal garden]

People suck.

This update WILL make things worse, purely because of the fact that people suck and want to make others lives on the game unenjoyable and torment.

Everyone, not just the clans being affected, will experience this.

We literally saw it in legacy, we saw how bad the hatchi killing could've been and it was. It NEVER changed.

That is the thing that some of you people do not want to accept or realize, or even try to understand. You want it to get better and are clinging onto the fact that maybe this may!

I'm telling you right now, as someone who has gone out of their way to stalk, kill, and taunt a clan just because they were an enemy and murder any and all babies found in the territory.

This will only ever make things worse, and everyone LOVES to pick on the little guy. Does not matter who, whoever the new little guy is, or even if your an old time vet. You will experience this too.

[fallow ore]

Doesn't matter if it already happens, the fact is the respawn system will make it worse. Its not the step in the right direction, its a step in the direction of killing the player base, it won't matter if they work on a way to balance it, people will be gone by then knowing the reputation of how long updates take. Also, while you have a point that its nice to being able to play a different role & breeders can try fighting without risking their clan, I also have never met one breeder who was upset that they can't fight or don't fight at all, usually they have a second account or don't make all their dragons breeders. You aren't being forced into that role, its a game, you play how you like, you can control which dragons are breeders & which are fighters. This respawn system is going to kill enjoyment of the game

[exotic forum]

The update will fundamentally promote hatching killing and throws away the sheer risk for any breeder. If a breeder dies it is no longer a loss to the clan. And a bigger point is to set back another clan on breeding so you have the upper hand. Also giving us the new stat spawn system for randoms is great but at the same time you are just promoting their death since we now have to hatch is hunt to possibly confirm our kills. I also think no PVE player should have a voice in this Because this is solely affecting pvp servers in a negative way. they don’t get the concept from a CLAN BASED game for PVP. I think this should be an option unofficial have to turn on and not for the official game play or just make a server with and without it and see where your player base will fall.

[nocturne nimbus]

Yall know that a respawned hatchie keeps its respawn until it logs off right? That you can kill it 50 times and it's only dead dead if the player logs before juvi and you kill it when it comes back?

Like I agree there are players who would (and have stated they will) hatchie hunt for the sake of it. But the only way you can actually kill those stats is prolonged harassment as it keeps respawning in other people's territories?

Like it's not even worth hatchie hunting unless you're getting your rocks off bullying the weak.

I think a good number of you are overestimating the number of players willing to waste their time purging hatchies at spawn when they could be ambushing elder progs. Or hunting down rival clans nests before the eggs hit juvi.

[exotic forum]

I think you under estimate PVP players. if that’s the only way we are able to do damage to another clan then so be it. There is no fun in killing somebody if they don’t loose it.

[long dust]

What truly is the point in ambushing an elder prog if it just comes back later? If they can respawn re grow and get back to where it was in the matter if a day or 2? Where do you honestly see the fun in that. Please enlighten me and dont say "if its a high prog it will still be satisfying" wrong you get 4 elder ticks as well as having crystals that that current dragon needs highlighted for you. Theres no looking theres really no waiting involved eldering will be fast as all hell at this point you could be back to whatever prog you were in a matter of hours if lucky.

Also if you dont think people would just kill ever hatchie all the time to make sure that dragon is dead it doesn't have to be in the same session they will just constantly kill everything.

[nocturne nimbus]

What's the point in ambushing an elder prog now if it just comes back later?
What does it matter to you if that dragon is out for 2 days or out for 20?

That dragon is out for the rest of your session. It's out the next few times you log in.
And then someone else takes advantage of the timeslot they were using to grind elder and gets out ahead.

I play to play. I enjoy the game, I enjoy attempting to force people out of an area and claiming it for ourselves.

I don't get pleasure from knowing someone has to spend weeks to months building up to where they were. How they spend their time does nothing to me.

If they're dead until next time I'm playing, that's more then enough.
I play plenty of games where people don't get set back at all for losing a fight. I play plenty of games where people are out their last few hours work if I kill them. They're all fun regardless.

How much time I just caused someone to waste doesn't give me joy at all.

Simple fact of it is, there is going to be other players who can fight me. Who it is, how long it took them to get there, doesn't matter. What matters is that they are there to fight, that someone has a nest down, or a territory to defend, that neither of us wants to be inconvenienced by grinding up again or losing a fight.

They hit adult in three hours? They were going to do that anyway.
I'm signing off in 6 hours or 2 hours or 10 minutes, are they going to be further eldered then they were when we fought? No. And someone else has taken advantage of their absence.

all advantages are temporary

If it takes them 10 hours or 100 to get back to where they were, there will have been more things happening while they were down. Something else might have sideswiped them while I was offline and they're still a hatchie.

The faster we're all back on our feet after taking an L, the more fun we can have going at it. The more reckless we can be, the more risks and stunts we can pull, the more amazing stories we have to tell our friends and vrag about. No risks, no glory, and too many people are set too far back under the current system for things to actually happen. A few days inconvenienced is more then enough for clans to shift in the server.

When was the last time any of us saw a 60 player battle? Aren't you tired of small scrimmages over before anyone else is online, of whittling away a clans strength one elder at a time?
Can't risk breeders, can't risk progs, don't want to waste an elder. Where is the fun. Because it's not fun if your work isn't used, and it's not going to be used if risking losing it puts not just yourself but your clan back months.

Do you ever stop to wonder how many dragons your enemies and your allies might be able to commit to a fight if they all knew we could be back up on our feet in a couple days/week? What the game might look like if we weren't all fighting over inches, if miles could change hands in a day? Doesn't that sound exciting to you?

Don't you want to take an elder and waste it just to see how far you can tear into anothed clan?

Don't you want to build up the skill where you can do that and survive?

Doesn't that sound fun?

[tropic stream]

Keep in mind that the ticks are spaced 6 hours apart, and practically speaking, most people will only be able to get 3 per day (at SOME point everyone HAS to sleep). Add onto the fact that people have jobs and families and LIVES outside of the game, and honestly I don't see many people logging on even 3x a day for ticks at least during the work week. Also, while it's true that active crystals for your dragon will be highlighted, the same is true of every dragon of enemy clans that also needs that crystal type, especially at night. I think combat over crystals is going to become a LOT more common overall, which puts progs at greater risk. Finally, keep in mind that most elders require dozens of elder ticks to elder. Even the ASD, which requires the fewest currently, is likely to require at least a week I think to elder on a contested server where people ARE challenging for crystals and there is risk involved for looking. And if the dragon dies, they start eldering over... I don't see eldering being "fast as all hell" and "back to whatever prog you were in a matter of hours" unless you were killed as a low level prog.... In which case not much was lost even in the current system, as clans just renest you back into a clean 18A anyways. (Also id like to point out that in Legacy you seriously could feasibly completely elder a dragon within 48 hours on the weekend if you went crazy and got EVERY mushroom for your species, which remember respawned once every hour)

[long dust]

What's the point in ambushing an elder prog now if it just comes back later?

The point is it has to be renested you have a chance of finding those breeders to topple a larger clan or at least set them back some.

"How much time I just caused someone to waste doesn't give me joy at all." what you are not getting is its not just you and how you enjoy the game I know a lot of people who do not think the way you do. How you play isnt the only thing that matters here as its not just affecting you its affecting the server as a whole.

"If they're dead until next time I'm playing, that's more then enough." This happens without the respawn system so whats the point the argument of them staying down until you play next isnt up to you. Theres always other players to fight theres always people on the map but the randos that dont know how to play dont know how to fight because people kill them all the time and it will only get worse.

We are not talking about other games if you want to play something with no sense of loss then go play your other games. Go play your unpunishing games, after the update it will no longer take months to achieve what we have now again even small clans if they are working for it will have 18A in a few weeks maybe a month at most if they can live all the hatchie killing and even super rino himself said it in the live that theres only one way to prevent that dragon from coming back now. Hes promoting it which is only going to make the servers suffer. So losing a breeder might hurt sure but you wont be bashing your head against a wall trying to get them back with this update. Since you can spawn with at least 1A but can get more if you roll and get lucky. Nesting wont be hard even if you are working with a small team at least if you didnt have the respawn system you could at least set someone back a few days instead of a few hours.

"When was the last time any of us saw a 60 player battle?" My clan gets in plenty of big fights without this system in place and they are fun because it allows people to think and be strategic with this it will just be a DM server there will be no point no reward for winning a fight. Oh so what they died they just get that dragon pearls and everything back. I have recently been in fights where both clans are throwing full accounts one of every dragon and you have to think to survive its fun cuz you have to actually try not to lose your crit's or good 18A with crits. if you do then you put your breeders at risk since you would have to pull them out to renest. There has always been a risk to this game even back in the alpha its not a sandbox game its a survival clan v clan PvP game. Its taking that entire aspect away.

@tropic stream

My point is eldering is going to be a lot easier now then it was before. Even if you are just ticking, yes people have jobs and stuff but I also know a lot of people who share accounts in bigger clans so if you're not on others can get you ticks or crystals. Now this doesn't happen with everyone sure but that doesn't change the fact that it happens. They will just respawn a nice crit dragon and either tick it up and not play it anyway or just not care about it cuz they can get it back be it quickly or taking time.

[thin pilot]

Those last 4 points you made here about committing dragons to a fight and just going, taking elders and tearing as far as we can and survive, that already happens. It's happened several times this last week alone with my clan and other clans on MM. We've had 3-4 hour fights! This update doesn't change any of that so that sounds like more personal experience in your clan again rather than considering everyones perspective again.
Clans will absolutely repeatedly kill hatchies to make sure those high stat kills stay dead. They've done it for less in the past tbh

[nocturne nimbus]

You asked me what I find fun in the game, if the people I fight get to come back.

That is directly what you asked me.

And as clearly as I could, I tried to answer

That right now, current live build. They get to come back just as they would with respawning, assuming they have a backend support of a coordinated clan.

however current upstating takes months, potentially years depending on situation.

You yourself are describing your clans structure, where you dont want to lose your current dragon so you don't risk the clan breeders. Not your time investment, not your elder progress, the clan breeders.

Do you understand how messed up it is, that there are designated accounts forbidden from logging in, so that your clan does not lose months to years of work.

And we've danced around the issue for a good day or so now.
But fact of the matter is. Weather you spread it out or not, weather a person likes only nesting and prefers not to fight or not, someone is forced not to play. If someone only wants to sit nests, that's fine, if someone doesn't like to play a certain dragon, I get it. But dear gods let it be a choice, not something forced on a group by the meta.

Not every clan is so blessed to have someone who bought a game so they could stare at a wall and watch anime.

What you don't seem to get, is that all of us are willing to bear some degree of discomfort for our friends and clanmates. There are sacrifices any of us may be willing to make for their sakes. So that the group may prosper and have fun. But it is messed up that the point of a game be not to play. That the meta demand you not play. Why have the game then.

I dont want DM. Don't put words in my mouth. PvP you grow, you struggle to survive, you fight for territory, you scheme. And it is fun.

But what is broken is right now? What you're describing as being afraid of losing isn't your own work, isn't the weeks of slog and fights eldering.
its making the work of your breeders be wasted. It's risking them. It's putting a sacrificial goat on an alter, turning to the town and going "we need a volunteer, to agree to not play anymore", and you dont want that to be for nothing.

We dont need to do that. It was hard! We've come very far, fighting for any advantage we can get!

but we don't need to have a player be a sacrifice to enjoy the game

That there is multiple people in this chat, that there was enough consistent complaints about not being able to play because they were a breeder that the Devs noticed it, not in suggestions, but in game and in discord, since legacy and decided to add revives to get rid of the practice, which they have cited multiple times as the primary reason.

Is that not proof enough? That there is something in the meta is hilariously broken in how it causes the playerbase to act?

Take pride in your own work, your own skill. In the territory you hold and the schemes you concoct.

Revives, they give you and your enemy what we all would have anyway, faster. So that we do not need to bench our breeders anymore. Are fighters more effective in a fight? Absolutely. But we shouldn't have to ask for volunteers not to play, that's messed up.

Now, is hatchie killing going to be a problem? Yes. It has been before 1.2, and it will be after 1.2, and for a week or two immediately following revives being added in it will be worse then average.

that is not a reason to scrap revives

Revives did not cause it, and removing revives will not remove hatchie killing either.

Hatchie killing is an entirely different problem, that the devs are aware of, and are doing what they can to make sure revives incentivses hatchie killing the least that it can.

Which is why hatchies keep their revives until they log out, why there's so many gosh darn spawn points, why the spawn points are spread out over the map.

Hatchie killing is a separate issue, and solutions are being worked on

[thin pilot]

But here's the thing, with the brood and the breeding part of the update it wont take months to upstat anymore you're leaving that part out. And yes YOU specifically don't like sitting nests, it is your choice ultimately. Its a personal choice truly. But with the combination of upstating becoming significantly easier and the ability to keep stats in case of a loss, breeders will be shelved and the people that dont like to fight will be in the same position your in doing something they don't want to do or just not playing the game, I don't see how you can't see that point as well?

[opal garden]

I don't know what clan your in that doesn't allow you to go onto your breeders... Why are you still in that clan. Ulimately it sounds like you need to retire from breeding and find a new clan, or find help with breeding instead of trying to do it yourself. LMFAO

[round kite]

Personally, fighting on a breeder isn't fun anyways. You will get domed so much faster due to your inabilities your same species has even against you haha. Count other species in and you are cooked even faster.

[exotic forum]

As a breeder and fighter, this game IS based on having multiple accounts. You could use Sandboxie back then which every Legacy player knows and the clans were built off of multiple accounts/ults. Now you don't have to use ults and no one is forcing someone to but now with the update its worthless to go around killing breeders all you are doing is making them loose 3-4 hours max of growing. 3-4 Hours vs 20 Hourse is a Massive Difference. Killing a breeder rn is EVERYTHING, because you have to reroll for stats and the chance of getting around the same or better stats from the dragon you lost not everything is 18a flat in pvp.

[long dust]

I didnt, I asked what the point was and where you see the fun in that not what makes the game fun for you.

however current upstating takes months, potentially years depending on situation.
Yes current but that all changes with this upcoming update and with the brood that everyone will eventually be able to spawn makes it even easier. Also having A's even one at guaranteed spawn already makes it 10x faster to upstat.

You yourself are describing your clans structure, where you dont want to lose your current dragon so you don't risk the clan breeders. Not your time investment, not your elder progress, the clan breeders.
I am a clan breeder i know how it is to sit for hours rolling myself or someone else. I have been caught and lost breeders its frustrating but I can also bounce back cuz i know its part of the game. I know its a risk to go get food or water. Growing is not an issue for me i haven't died on a baby in months because staying quite and laying low while growing is the easy part.

Do you understand how messed up it is, that there are designated accounts forbidden from logging in, so that your clan does not lose months to years of work.
Dont be a breeder then. No one should be forbidding you from logging into that account it is your personal account what you do with it is your choice. If thats the case for you dont be in that clan dont play with those people and again why would you want to be in a fight on a breeder they are not built to fight. They are for laying eggs and defending nests they are not good in fights.

But fact of the matter is. Weather you spread it out or not, weather a person likes only nesting and prefers not to fight or not, someone is forced not to play.
Again if you dont want to be a breeder dont do it there are plenty of people just like limitless said that are happy not fighting and just sitting nests as that is what they want to do. You say let it be a choice but thats the thing it is a choice if you are being forced to do something if you are letting that happen that is a you problem and you shouldnt be letting someone control what you do in a game and how you want to play.

I dont want DM. Don't put words in my mouth
I did not say you want DM i said it will turn into DM and it will just with growing that will be the only difference. Please read what I said before you assume.

**its making the work of your breeders be wasted. **
I am a breeder a main breeder it is my work and I have stated before I am a breeder. This update is a slap in my face having sat hours apon hours of nests for my clan and our stats. I dont see it as a sacrifice since I dont mind doing it but that is my personal choice. It makes it so honestly theres really no point in breeders any more since there will be only a few reasons for breeders to even be a thing after getting a crit dragon since fighters can also lay nests they just take longer. If thats the case just get what you want die then turn it into a fighter then theres no breeding at all. Theres no reason to have breeding points as theres no skin crafting in the game.

that is not a reason to scrap revives. Revives did not cause it, and removing revives will not remove hatchie killing either.
Again please read what im saying I said to leave it off of Some official servers not all not scrap it. Never did I or anyone say that this system caused hatchie killing we all said it will make it worse because it will even more so when the creator of the game encouraged it. Which is wild when its one of the biggest complaints.

[long dust]

It think its more than fair to have some servers without it hes done it before just like how BM server was group damage but the other servers wernt.

[thin pilot]

I don't think it's quite the minority you think it is.. more than likely the other way around based on the votes here as well, simply because a LARGE portion of pvp players have been banned from the discord, mostly for sharing their thoughts and feelings about changes in the past albeit very passionately so you need to consider that in your argument as well. I think its a great idea for an official pvp server to have it off, more than likely the one that maintains highest pop, and the rest get the revives/option for unofficials because you're right, it would give them way better data to have experiences with and without the revives with the new stat changes