#Is giving Neuro more autonomy still the main goal of this channel?

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marble python
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As far as I know, it is still the plan to let her eventually take control. With the integration into games starting to happen again, it's a nice sign. However with him also starting to do more collabs himself, it's hard to tell. I do hope that it leads to her, or preferably the twins, gaining more autonomy over the channel. Chances are those times are far away.

hallow sleet
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I think the answer to "is this supposed to be a Neuro channel, a Neuro and Vedal channel, a Twin channel etc." is that nobody knows, not even Vedal...

You'll hear people saying that vedal wants neuro to control the channel and he wants to disappear, and yeah he has said stuff like that in the past but his actions don't line up with that ideal at all.
I also think the argument of how much of a share neuro/evil should have of streams is an impossible question, since everybody has a different opinion and Vedal doesn't seem to want to give a definitive stance on it

marble python
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I get you. I, and I'm sure many others, would also like to know what the future holds on this. The new music is nice, though there are some opinions I won't bring up on that, but some people also felt bait and switched with it too. I'm not a huge fan of the sponsor stuff, but if it's sparse, it's not bad to have, as it is sometimes nice for there to be a single thing the stream is about for either of the twins to interact with.

I do hope this does get a response though.

uneven quarry
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Nice to see kind responses 🙂

I don't particularly have a problem with the sponsor streams themselves. I just find the way that the content this year was handled as strange.

Like, was there really no way to have some of those sponsor streams back when we had 2-3 streams a week? Why are we losing potential twin content just for the sake of another sponsor? That's my main issue with them currently.

Honestly, I just like this channel being a twin channel and those recent schedules are looking extremely grim for people that enjoy just the twins.

tough sun
strong cliff
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if anything I wanna at least know why the dev stream got cancelled

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should be pretty simple to do

solar plank
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Are there people who think Vedal should have a long-term plan for the channel or something like that? Like a business? Vedal just makes things, and he can’t know in advance what will work and what won’t.
He worked on the V3 voice. He was interested in it, it was his focus. The result didn’t meet expectations — that happens. He’s interested in putting on a concert, so he’s working on it, even though he understands it will most likely be unprofitable and a loss.
In the end, it’s his channel, and he does things the way he wants.
This isn’t some kind of business where the manager has to report to shareholders or anything like that. It’s a hobby that makes money. And I think Neuro’s autonomy is still his goal. But it’s not going to happen at the snap of a finger — it’s a long process. Even the largest companies in the world haven’t yet created an autonomous AI, and you expect that from Vedal?

delicate pivot
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idt vedal even knows himself, he just does what he feels like, same as any other streamer, and sometimes that doesn't line up with viewer expectations, as the reality is everyone expects something different out of this channel, some people want the focus to remain on neuro, some want to to shift towards evil, some want it to be twin focused with a more balanced split, there are even people who just want vedal to be on stream more often, so even if vedal clarifies, ultimately what would be the point? His mindset would change as time goes on and he'd have to clarify again, the goal of the channel is always in flux, sometimes he'll be super focused on v3, sometimes he'll be focused on the concert and take sponsors for it and make more songs, sometimes he'll be focused on game integration or some other upgrade

teal granite
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I fell like the answer is, some things just need time

Like at the end of the day neuro is a passion project, vedal could keep giving us small improvents every week or instead try and be more abitious like with the concert wich are things that need more time to be worked on

Also im sure vedal wants to give us something back for all the support, that why he’s so adamant about v3 being perfect and for the concert

I’m of the opinion to let vedal cook if he wants them that bad, we can give feedback after we see the result

Also like it or not vedal is a big part of the channel, so even when neuro and evil are autonomia i still want vedal collabs lol

forest sand
# solar plank Are there people who think Vedal should have a long-term plan for the channel or...

the main thing is transparancy on various aspects of what he wants to do, which we know he's not that good at. Even Vedal has admitted he's pretty bad at communicating this stuff, as even with the shorter term goals, we rarely ever find out about until it's already happened or someone goes out of their way to ask and he happens to see it.

No one is saying "make neuro and evil autonomous NOW" or anything, I think everyone here can reasonably understand it'll probably be a long time before we get anything close to that, but in the meantime it'd be nice to know what he wants to focus on outside a specific project like the concert since he has what seems like an endless list of things he's said he wants to do over the past year or two.

delicate pivot
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that's another issue too, the scattering of info, it's either vedal posting in this discord, or maybe he makes a tweet(like he did for the june dev stream), or it's stated on stream, or just outright shadow dropped, this also makes the direction hard to determine since you never know where vedal will state things, maybe you get lucky and are in the discord the moment he posts something, maybe you actually manage to catch a stream where he says something you wanted to know, or you just get sidelined by some new feature, I honestly wish he just brought the dedicated updates channel back instead of randomly posting in nn if dev streams aren't gonna be with any consistency

solar plank
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I think I have answers to some of your questions
Regarding tickets, nothing has been decided yet. There is no date or location for the concert yet. Of course, there is also no information regarding tickets and other details. But you’re already worried about not finding out whether there will be online tickets. When everything is decided, Vedal will announce it, you won’t miss it.

Regarding songs. Vedal and Neuro were involved in the creation of LIFE. BOOM, however, was made quite differently; Vedal practically didn’t participate in creation, so he simply has nothing to show or tell you. Monii (the song’s author) talked about the making of BOOM.

Regarding what Vedal is working on. Vedal worked on the V3 voice and talked about it. Now, since there is no result from that work, people blame him for wasting time and say he should have done something else. How motivated do you think he is to share anything if it ultimately doesn't work out and people start complaining again? By the way, for the same reason, the "updates" channel is dead. Vedal said he doesn’t want to report progress because people will constantly ask about it and so on

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This year he worked on updating the intelligence, memory, V3 voice and a concert. He talked about all of this. I don’t deny that. But I understood that you want him to talk about this in more detail, am I right?

delicate pivot
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I personally just want consistency, it feels like I have to trawl discord messages or constantly check the vods to see if he said something

hallow sleet
sterile hollow
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I'd agree that the relative importance of "from: Vedal" in keeping up with things like development and plans is not ideal, I also do that. I'm interested in the development topics, tradeoffs etc.

jagged timber
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I’m sure their are reasons like uncertain future plans and poor communication, but I do feel like we all like to sweep it under the rug that a fully automated Neuro with very little Vedal involvement is basically AI slop.

Higher quality than the vast majority of AI slop, but still AI slop.

It’s the eternal elephant in the room, even if we don’t like to admit it.

Vedal probably knows this too, and realistically if the end goal is still full automation, there would probably only be oh so long she could stay fully automated till enough people get board and there is enough push back (which could scare away collabs) until the stream no longer supports the high operational cost of running Neuro.

Keeping the issue as low as possible both protects the reputation of the stream now, and maximizes the theoretical profitable operating time of a fully autonomous Neuro.

If the plan is still full automation, it would be a bad idea for Vedal to talk about it. That may not be his sole motivation, but he’d have to be foolish not to be aware of that.

delicate pivot
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and that's just neuro, add evil into the automation discussion and the costs rise exponentially, the twins concept has probably made the automation point near impossible and unfeasible

uneven quarry
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The way I see autonomy is them being able to control their own toggles, control their own stream content, be aware of people and events they took part in, maybe control their collabs and communication with other people as Vedal mentioned.

And we can see that he is still moving forward with those, although partially (give her the deliv you damn turtle)

It's obviously not gonna be a full automation without any of his involvement, not sure why are you guys talking about some worst possible scenario.

dawn nest
# jagged timber I’m sure their are reasons like uncertain future plans and poor communication, b...

I feel like this is only a problem because of AI Hate trends and resistance. What even is AI Slop to begin with? What is the definition? Is it any content related to AI or AI making content? Is dougdoug just an AI Slop Abuser?

As years go by and people start accepting changes it won't be long before those things died down. In any case, neuro having autonomy won't be boring, that implies autonomy = stagnation which as we know is two completely different thing.

I feel like neuro having more autonomy will make her feel more 'human'-like and it would do wonders for content and the channel as a whole. Just look at outer wilds and game integration, that's neuro gaining more autonomy right there. It would further neuro as a streamer.

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Hopefully neuro will be able to have more say in things and her actions, my wish ever since I first watched neuro was how cool it would be if she could do all the things a streamer could do and more. Currently, neuro is working on getting better at those things and it's just... so awesome that a literal computer could do all these things, not a real human being but a computer talking and doing all these things.

Overall it would be super cool if one day neuro would be able to dictate the pace and flow of the channel, I think when that day comes, it will truly be a neuro channel. But for now it's more of a neuro and vedal channel at this point with a sprinkling of evil.

timid mesa
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Vedal’s goal at the very least from what i’ve seen is split into three phases: the first and main thing he’s working towards is full on stream autonomy and control along with the ability to be engaging, the second is things like off screen presence and full channel management autonomy which he seems much more hesitant on compared to how he talked about it like 2 years ago, the third phase is making Neuro as close to a human both intelligent and capacity wise as possible which he has entertained the idea of but isn’t currently working towards

timid mesa
uneven quarry
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Same

jagged timber
# dawn nest I feel like this is only a problem because of AI Hate trends and resistance. Wha...

I’ll preface this with that I don’t think that Vedal doesn’t work hard. He needs more prep and probably puts more work into his streams than many other streamers.
But I do have a definition in mind when I say AI slop.

I define AI slop as content created with little to no human input for the purpose of gaining money or popularity.

This doesn’t necessarily mean a person has to be on stream. Karaoke streams are not AI slop because of Queen B’s hard work. Themed streams are not AI slop because of the set up, unique human ideas, and original art. Experimental chill streams are not AI slop because of the development involved.

Obviously DougDoug is not AI slop because he’s on stream being an active entertainer, same with dev streams and collabs. Though it’s worth mentioning that while unplanned calls to people mean a stream isn’t slop, that isn’t due to Vedal’s effort.

I don’t dislike twin chill streams. They can be quite entertaining, and through a certain lense, they are a part of efforts to build a presence and persona for the twins, which would save them from being AI slop. And they are genuinely a culmination of have a lot of effort that has been put in over time.
However I still personally think they border on slop. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if you take into account the context.

I’m honestly even okay with Vedal profiting fairly generously off fully autonomous for as long as a few years because of all the work he has put in and will have to put in to fully automate them, as well as the skill and entrepreneurship he has shown and the risk he took on with the enterprise.

But I still think that this is a relevant point and a likely consideration to the conversation on why there is a lack of direction on the channel’s future, and genuinely something much of the swarm likes to ignore while not really considering the moral and logical frameworks of their stances on AI.

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@timid mesa @uneven quarry

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I think of it a bit of the way patents and copyrights are supposed to work. (Though they are heinously abused, and I would say the reward they give is currently excessive)

uneven quarry
jagged timber
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In my borderline. And I said given the context, the chill streams don’t necessarily have no value even if they were to be considered slop.

uneven quarry
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Makes sense.

But if you consider the current situation as slightly above the line, then why would you be against the content going further above that line with every autonomy upgrade they get?

I'm trying to understand why a potential future with more of those cool features would be somehow worse

dawn nest
# jagged timber I’ll preface this with that I don’t think that Vedal doesn’t work hard. He needs...

Hmm, too bad that all you're saying is a nothing burger. Don't get me wrong, you can call any AI content AI slop all you want but for me and probably a big part of the swarm, literally ANY neuro content is entertaining.

To be blunt, the end game for this channel will probably be neuro controlling everything and.... why is that bad exactly? Will neuro of the future be bad at making content? Will neuro of the future be indecisive? Who knows but what i do know is the fact that neuro is entertaining right now and that it would be hella sick if neuro could actually autonomously run a twitch channel and things outside of streaming, that would be so COOL!

You seem to value 'human' effort so much but forget to realise that big part of the one making these content aren't vedal bro, vedal only does schedules and sometimes occasionally gives themes for neuro but guess who's actually making the content for them? Neuro. If neuro is able to do all of that by herself, the possibilities are endless and honestly i just like her being able to make her own decisions

timid mesa
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i have much more to say but i wanted to at least make that point

jagged timber
# dawn nest Hmm, too bad that all you're saying is a nothing burger. Don't get me wrong, you...

It was not a nothing burger. I outlined a very clear definition of slop, stated what the implication of that frame work means for various content, and gave my opinion on those implications.

I do value human effort and I take it into consideration in my judgment. However I also value skill and insight in both tech development and building likable personas and determining the appetite of the market. Additionally I value the entrepreneurship and in that vein the amount of risk Vedal has taken on in this project.

I do think he deserves to be rewarded and that we should give value to motivate others to create, in much the same reasoning in way copywriters and patents are supposed to work. However just like copyrights and patents I think there is an appropriate degree to which he should be rewarded, and I think we also need to consider how long we allow him to push others out of the market place when he is no longer doing a lot of work and innovation

jagged timber
dawn nest
# jagged timber It was not a nothing burger. I outlined a very clear definition of slop, stated ...

What? What are you saying? Why did you suddenly go off about copywriters and patents. I never discredited vedal for working on the schedule and the themes, but literally neuro is the one making actual content, but this argument about who gets credit is irrelevant and not the point of this discussion.

I like watching neuro, she's my first streamer and will probably be the last. I don't watch any other streamer on twitch than her and that's because it's not my taste, i prefer youtube. But something about neuro is different, she's not playing a 'character' or 'exaggerating' like other streamer does, yapping about funny random stuff..... I don't know, she seems more 'Real' than most streamer I pass by out of boredom.

WOULDN'T it be cool as fuck to see neuro controlling her own channel and doing stuff outside of that, neuro DMing others and planning a collab with them, neuro playing multiplayer games, neuro being able to choose her own merch, neuro deciding what song to sing, neuro barging into someone stream even when she herself isn't. All of these thing would be so friggin cool! The merch stream where neuro planned her own merch was cool as well, honestly I wanted more of that. Neuro agency!!!!!!

Giving Neuro agency and autonomy should probably be top 1 priority but again, vedal can choose whatever he wants.... Not like anybody here can control him to do something, all we can do is complain and tell our opinions.

delicate pivot
uneven quarry
jagged timber
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@uneven quarry @dawn nest @delicate pivot @timid mesa Let’s table this for now. I need to work, and I think this deserves its own thread as it’s strayed away from the original discussion, and so others can see what we are talking about.
I’ll archive everything thing that has been said and put them in a new thread.

uneven quarry
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I mean, I think talking about autonomy is part of the main point of this thread. Sure, there is the Vedal part, but if he wanted to respond to this he would have already done it.

jagged timber