Outer Wilds: Neuropilot: Echoes of the Evil

[swift gust]

he kinda half suspects imaging

[cold ridge]

Fair enough

[swift gust]

but i dont know if we can count that

[swift gust]

Btw do you have an alt?

im fairly certain i know you

[cold ridge]

I do not

[swift gust]

hmm.. ok

[dusty ruin]

||I'm really excited what this 6th location is||

[swift gust]

then you should be playing yourself instead

once in a lifetime and all that

[dusty ruin]

I'll consider it

[glass gulch]

You have a good shot of beating Vedal there, he is the Tower of Quantum Ignorance.

[cold ridge]

lmao

[marble lynx]

Looks like I'll be able to be around for the first two hours of the stream in case anything needs troubleshooting

[marble lynx]

I hadn't considered what would happen if you tried to list locations for the Sun

Obvious in retrospect

Sun_Body is the internal name because the devs don't let you lock onto it normally

Good to know the command is loading properly though

Idea: send Neuro a context message for the "UNIDENTIFIED SIGNAL NEARBY" notification to remind him to scan the signal

She sassed him about it anyway, nice

[swift gust]

i feel like it already does?

[marble lynx]

It might

I'd need to double-check the NeuroScope code

[marble lynx]

Weird that she tried to travel to the Targeted Body instead of the player directly

Not sure what happened there

~1:05:00

[dusky glacier]

I feel like she not suppose to try and land on the white hole station

[marble lynx]

Yeah, I think what happened there is she targeted the white hole itself rather than white hole station

And White Hole Station is small enough it didn't detect it as an obstacle

Re: the "Sally" running joke, maybe a command for renaming the ship

[marble lynx]

She's getting confused between the travel command and orbit-to-location command, that makes sense

I'll see if I can make them redirect to the other if she misuses one

[swift gust]

can we make the obtacle detection active even when the ship is not traveling

[marble lynx]

It currently uses the line between the ship and the travel destination, will need to rework that

But theoretically we can set an arbitrary point in the direction of the ship's velocity to use if we're not traveling

[bright cargo]

Yeah its a notification so it should get sent to her

But its getting sent silently

[marble lynx]

Makes sense

[swift gust]

should make the ship lights colorable to match the scout too

[dusky glacier]

is the mod making it easier to keep track of the quantum moon as it just went behind the sun and should it have moved right?

[cold ridge]

You could make them match the lava lamp

[marble lynx]

We don't have access to the lava lamp API unfortunately

[marble lynx]

She can fly to the quantum moon wherever it happens to be, yeah

[cold ridge]

Damn

[swift gust]

@marble lynx what did you say to make everyone scream "dev is in chat"?

[marble lynx]

Wasn't me, Jeff Yu from the actual game dev team stopped by

[swift gust]

ohh!

[marble lynx]

Need to step away for the rest of the stream here in a sec, lemme know if any other mod-related issues come up

[swift gust]

im still catching up!

"unidentified signal nearby" "thats just giants deep" ahh yes, the most nearby signal

OH MY GOD FINALLY

[cold ridge]

He land on the moon?

[swift gust]

i was reffering to toqk

am behind

[cold ridge]

Ah

[cold ridge]

I'm really happy this exists, by the way. I'd always hoped I'd get to see Vedal and Neuro play Outer Wilds, though I thought it'd never actually happen

[marble lynx]

Honestly amazing that we could get anything remotely usable with such an inconsistent, realtime, physics-based game

[swift gust]

i like how vedal just totally noped the fig backer sattelite

and how hes made this restriction on having to target the quantum moon all on his own

[swift gust]

watching neuro start piloting to the qm, then vedal looking away and canceling it withowithout realizing she can without him targeting

its like one of those rom coms where the person passes the other person like 40 times and you're like "this is so unrealistic"

vedal: "i dont need you"
neuro: "fine then ill kick you out of the ship"

so is she auto orbiting the moon or something?

[marble lynx]

I think she's trying to target a specific location, yeah

Which doesn't work because the Quantum Moon always rotates out from under you

I'm glad those were mostly interchangeable but I should make the 'base' location just do a normal travel instead

[swift gust]

but vedal specifically told her to "travel"

and seems to be watching the outputs in order to know that

so im thinking hed realize if she wasnt

[swift gust]

also it should work mostly fine cause its still there and only rotates the moment you enter

[marble lynx]

True... Shouldn't be orbiting in that case though. I'll see if I can reproduce it manually maybe

[cold ridge]

I think it might be a good idea to prevent Neuro from trying to land on Hollow's Lantern in case he decides he wants to see if there's anything to explore there

[swift gust]

alrrady did that boi

and why would that need preventing landing?

[cold ridge]

So she doesn't land in lava

[cold ridge]

Guess I missed that, then. I wasn't able to watch all of the last stream

[swift gust]

You know what? I can see why exploring to understand the game mechainics would be helpful when trying to play the game. - Vedal's Outer Wilds wisdom 2025

[frozen ermine]

[swift gust]

so my closing thoughts

"ahh crap vedals fallen into the puzzle game mentality"

he was doing so well

im hoping the quantum caves thing knocked him out of it but still

i think... 2 streams left?

one actually fun one, then an enire stream of ||atp brute forcing||

[dusty ruin]

After outer wilds , what's next

[hybrid zinc]

I didn't send vedal the mod updates, did he grab them?

[frozen ermine]

i'll check

well I should've expected it to not be that easy... vod combing it is

[jovial sphinx]

Portal stories mel

[frozen ermine]

Around 10 seconds before the 14 minute mark on the Outer Wilds VoD today, he mentions that "there are some more updates to the mod, as per usual, completely untested, as per usual" so it seems he pulled them

thank goodness that was clarified early I didn't want to actually comb through 4h+ of stream

[swift gust]

yeah he did

[swift gust]

@marble lynx @bright cargo anybody working on anything?

so i dont overlap

[marble lynx]

Not at the moment

[bright cargo]

not rn

[bright cargo]

i wanna change the lights command at some point though

to include ship lights

[swift gust]

ok well im working on the travel/orbit command stuff

it seems to be cancelling oddly, then imma try to combine the commands

[full plinth]

Glad to see that even the game devs are enjoying these streams. Big applause to everyone involved! And for those who missed it, Jeff was messaging throughout the stream:

[swift gust]

@marble lynx why did you include the planet itself as an orbit option?

[marble lynx]

Honestly, I don't know

I think I assumed (evidentally correctly) that Neuro would sometimes misuse the command to target the planet itself

But I didn't properly handle the fact that the commands work differently in that case

[swift gust]

ahh

also were you the one who made retargeting impossible when using targeted destination

or is that just a happy accident?

[swift gust]

accident it is, and i cant pin down why it happens

[hybrid zinc]

does neuro have an explode ship action

[marble lynx]

Just the "eject cockpit" command which renders the ship unusable. I thought it would be funnier than the instant death from the ship explosion

[glass gulch]

"Overload reactor" could be an option, Vedal can still fix it but he needs to figure that out.

[safe sphinx]

I expect the answer is a no but I have to ask if this destination is on the list because I didn't know it was a thing until Cerber just did it. ||The probe fired by the orbital cannon. When she got close enough it could be targeted and it has a physical model with textures with collision so it seems like while rare the devs did consider players reaching it. Though if you do add it to the list you might need to add some kind of override code for the return to solar system trigger||

[marble lynx]

||It's not normally considered a targetable object (there's a separate targeting system for general physics props that it uses) but we do explicitly add code in NeuroPilot to be able to target it. We also patch out the return-to-solar-system logic already ||

[plucky compass]

What does she think it does? Because to me it technically self destruct/dismantle the ship, different from ejecting the pilot. It felt like she misunderstood sometimes what it did even if the results are almost the same, except the ship is destroyed.

[swift gust]

idk what she thinks it does but she knows it destroys the ship

[surreal zephyr]

Do you think it would hinder Vedals progress if Neuro could change the color of the Ship light?

[plucky compass]

I remember when Neuro was trying to get the ship to Vedal near the black hole, as she "ejected" the ship said something like "quickly, jump in"

[swift gust]

@bright cargo was gonna work on that

[surreal zephyr]

ah ok, i got a version done if you want it, it is only the methods to change the color though

[surreal zephyr]

@bright cargo if you are still working on it here are my takes on it, you might be able to do it better or maybe take some inspiration from it.

[bright cargo]

ty ill try to add it today

[bright cargo]

i updated the the mod

[swift gust]

uh no we want ispowered

Cause its not technically on when the player is out of the ship

but is powered cause its visible

[bright cargo]

i see ill revert it

the command didnt seem to work for me before, so thats why i changed it

[bright cargo]

wait are you sure? the headlight never turns on for me

doesnt IsPowered just check if the electrical system is broken?

ok it works when the player is outside the ship

but not when the player is inside

[swift gust]

oh hmm

does it work in the pilots seat

and ur sure it doesnt just turn off when you leave the ship

[surreal zephyr]

I tried my best at making a mod for the ship.... looks like this...

[plucky compass]

[marble lynx]

Nice!

[surreal zephyr]

I'm pretty much done with the mod since a few hours ago, just waiting for the answer of someone if i can use one of their pictures or not. I have both versions done, just waiting for which one to use( if they haven't answered until i get home from work i will assume they said no and upload the other version and release it). Here another small thing since Vedal probably won't look on top of the ship. 😄 you can toggle the Face and Bows now(in case it gets too much for Vedal or someone using it)

[spice spire]

this would be peak on stream

[glass gulch]

I posted some DLC integration ideas in the Outer Wilds modding server because I don't want to spoil them here.

It's not super likely Vedal would do it but he might at least do a bit if there's something to see.

[cunning island]

imagine neuro ejects the ship and the faceplate goes flying

[plucky compass]

[surreal zephyr]

well here you go, finally back from work. Sadly no answer from the artist so without the little extra.
https://github.com/Janitachi/NeuroShip

[swift gust]

anyone wanna bump version and build neuropilot?

[swift gust]

nvm i got it

[spice spire]

vedal will use this today (and neuropilot 1.5.2)

[swift gust]

uh oh

not working how?

[marble lynx]

Something with the travel command maybe? It seems like the orbit command was triggering properly

I dunno

[swift gust]

travel and orbit are the same now

its just optional location value, leaving it empty targets the planet

[marble lynx]

Makes sense

That's a better design

[swift gust]

OOk whos on mute duty????

[hybrid zinc]

the ship is really dark on the inside

[swift gust]

it is kinda huh, @bright cargo that ur doing?

[hybrid zinc]

although the mod doesnt replace any materials just textures so

[swift gust]

it may be the ship light color command

[surreal zephyr]

could be my mod... but i tried it with and without and it didn't change anything... don't know... since its just overwriting sone pngs....

[marble lynx]

Looks like the ship interior lights are out or set to an invalid color, yeah

[bright cargo]

The color command only changes the headlight and landing light

[marble lynx]

Yeah, nothing in NeuroShip that could be doing this

Lemme check NeuroPilot after this work meeting

[surreal zephyr]

the problem i had at the beginning was that my gamma value reset for some reason.... but there is nothing in my mod that should do that...

[marble lynx]

https://github.com/Hawkbat/NeuroPilot/blob/develop/NeuroPilot/ScoutPatches.cs#L97

This sets the ship light intensity to the scout light intensity, i.e. 0 while the scout isn't out

Although that shouldn't affect the interior lights

Hmm

[bright cargo]

Maybe landing lights affects the interior lights somehow

[swift gust]

ok whos on spoiler duty? Doin a bad job today

[bright cargo]

But i didnt notice anything when i was testing it

[marble lynx]

It seems like she doesn't understand she needs to pass null?

Or it's throwing an error when she does

[swift gust]

id like to see logs

[marble lynx]

I wonder if she's putting the same value for both destination and location, or something

Yeah logs would be helpful

Thought something in the headlight toggle code might be turning off the overhead light but nope

[swift gust]

ernesto

[marble lynx]

She finally mentioned something after all those context meessages

It's confusing because sometimes she gets the traveling right

[swift gust]

ik, that makes me think its her problem

maybe shes still trying to use "travel"?

i wonder how her between session memory works with games

[marble lynx]

Definitely possible

[hybrid zinc]

there's nothing in the action that is explaining to her what parameter is option and how and why apart from the schema

the description should mention that she can leave 'location' null if she just wants to go to the planet

[marble lynx]

The description says it's optional, and it's not included in Required in the schema

Seemed reasonable at the time

[hybrid zinc]

maybe it is, but she seems to always be traveling to a location

[marble lynx]

Never know how she'll actually use the commands until she does

We can change that description

[hybrid zinc]

maybe she figured it out

[marble lynx]

I guess the evasion prompting needs a rework

The actual physics are already optimal, she just doesn't cancel to evade on her own

[surreal zephyr]

well the dark ship is my mod... you need to import the pngs in a certain way for them to not dim the light....

[marble lynx]

Interesting

Would not have expected that

[surreal zephyr]

yeah... need to set "alpha is transparency"

[glass gulch]

I'm behind schedule but I still want to work on some DLC integration stuff today. It won't take very long but I can't personally test it

[plucky compass]

Too bad Vedal won't stream this game anymore after today because he will totally finish it

[glass gulch]

I need write access on the repo, my Github is also Acamaeda.

[marble lynx]

Sent you an invite

[glass gulch]

Thanks!

https://github.com/Hawkbat/NeuroPilot/tree/dlc-integration

I might try to figure out testing stuff but it would be better if someone else can test this and maybe even get this in Vedal's hands if he stumbles on the DLC

There were some compile errors that I fixed. I need to go now though.

It currently unregisters Autopilot actions in the DLC locations if the player isn't in the ship, and registers a new action.

[hybrid zinc]

It would be cool to show him stats at the end of the game

I can work on that

[marble lynx]

That would be dope

The game does track loop count at least

[hybrid zinc]

We can just fetch a GitHub file from the repo and show it in a menu popup once he finishes

Actually if someone hooks that up I can skim through the vods and get some stats

[glass gulch]

I can't get Tony to run without a venv (the command neuro-api-tony doesn't exist) and don't understand venvs enough to run Outer Wilds in one.

[hybrid zinc]

Just pip install neuro-api-tony

[glass gulch]

I did that.

[hybrid zinc]

venv is a python specific thing

[glass gulch]

Although I tried installing it another way first.

[hybrid zinc]

And then just run it with neuro-api-tony

[glass gulch]

The term 'neuro-api-tony' is not recognized as the name of a

[hybrid zinc]

You have to restart your command prompt after you install it if you haven't already

[glass gulch]

I tried that and it still isn't working

It works if I activate the venv though.

[swift gust]

whats ur python ver?

[glass gulch]

I just installed it, so whatever's the neweest.

At this point it seems more likely to work with the venv, how do I connect Outer Wilds to the venv?

[swift gust]

try 3.10

[swift gust]

you dont

just python -m venv venv_name

then venv_name\Scripts\activate

[glass gulch]

Where do I do that?

[swift gust]

In the terminal?

[glass gulch]

But do I have to do it in a particular location?

[swift gust]

Whatever directory you wanna put it in

[glass gulch]

Maybe I messed up the url then?

I did ws://localhost:8000

[swift gust]

whats the problem?

[glass gulch]

It doesn't react to it.

Wait it is this time!

[swift gust]

did you not restart ow?

[glass gulch]

I might not have.

Now the Autopilot actions aren't being registered. Or well they were registered

Maybe that's on me though

I accidentally set "unregister actions in the cloaking field" to "only register in the cloaking field"

[swift gust]

its not just me

[plucky compass]

Is it possible for Neuro to read the ship log anytime?

[swift gust]

only the titles

[plucky compass]

For spoilers sake or complexity sake?

Additional question: does she have a timer for the supernova?

[glass gulch]

Okay my new action at the Stranger works! The de-registered actions seem not to though

[marble lynx]

Only the titles of previously explored locations, to avoid spoilers. It wouldn't be hard to give her all ship log access but she'd be spoiling much harder if she did

[glass gulch]

I pushed it to main version 1.6.0 (as the beginning of DLC integration)

I want people to be able to yell at Vedal to use it if he happens to end up at the Stranger

Right now I have to do something though so I can't set up building it

[plucky compass]

If she had the ability do you think Vedal would ask her instead of going into the ship? 🤔
And would it be possible for Neuro to read only when Vedal asks her?

[marble lynx]

Not in a way that could be enforced with the mod

We could ask her to only do it if he asks but she can ignore that

There's also a big concern that reading from the ship log will cause her to 'remember' stuff he hasn't learned yet

Which has already happened a few times normally

[plucky compass]

Unless maybe there was a hotkey for toggling the settings that let's her read the logs, but might be too wacky of an idea lol.

[glass gulch]

I'm not sure why, but the Autopilot is working in the cloaking field now.

I'm not sure why it was happening but I have a fix at least.

[plucky compass]

What if she can read only logs that Vedal has read before? Would that still be a problem? 🤔

[marble lynx]

The problem is at her core she's a text prediction machine; if you feed her steps 1, 2, and 3 of a puzzle, she'll "predict" step 4 if it exists anywhere in her training data

[glass gulch]

Neuropilot pro tip: always use crash for the Stranger because it automatically slows you down

But my fix left me in a wacky scenario where it can't stop the autopilot

[plucky compass]

Feel like she already knows all the steps though

[marble lynx]

Yeah, that's kind of the problem

She keeps trying to spoil

Having access to the ship logs would likely make that even worse

This is also probably a moot point because it looks like he'll finish the game within the next few hours of gameplay

[plucky compass]

Surely

[glass gulch]

If there are good DLC integrations he might check it out

I fixed some of the Stranger stuff but we want disabling and enabling things to trigger immediately on entering the cloaking field which currently doesn't happen

[marble lynx]

There are GlobalMessenger events for entering and exiting the cloak, that's probably the best way to react to that

She evaded on her own

Amazing

Disco scout

[swift gust]

ooo

excited to watch later

[marble lynx]

She's consistently evading the Hourglass Twins when they're in the way

Not as much luck with the sun, but he's adapted to tell her to do it

I think the color command needs to use a lower base intensity

Seems like even when she chooses white for the color the scout and ship headlights are way too bright

[bright cargo]

She can also choose the brightness

From 0 to 3

[marble lynx]

Right right

Is 1 the base brightness?

If so then I think capping it at 2 instead would make sense

[swift gust]

it was 5

maybe making it more clear should be in partial increments

idk sounds like maybe only 1 stream more max tho

makes it kinda hard to be motivated to improve it

[marble lynx]

Yeah, he knows what the final loop needs to be, as soon as he figures out how to get back into the ATP he's done

And I get the feeling he's not going to be mentally prepared to jump into the DLC this month

[swift gust]

no, neither do i really see it being a content mine like this was

[marble lynx]

What if we gave Neuro a little avatar in ||the Dream World||? Just a little light sprite or something that can change colors or play simple animations

And he's made it to the Eye

GGWP y'all

Fantastic work on NeuroPilot/NeuroScope/NeuroShip

[jovial sphinx]

||have neuro replace flame in the artifact||

[marble lynx]

"If there is enough content for two or three more streams of the DLC I'm down to play it"

"Not today though"

Obviously there's not much ship interaction but if Vedal wants to play the DLC on stream still I'm down to brainstorm ways we can mod in extra interactivity

Even if it breaks the game's canon a little more

[spring gate]

Well done guys was fun

[marble lynx]

(For when Alex or Vedal check this thread, the current version of NeuroPilot does have support for the ship-centric parts of the DLC, but there's also sections with no ship interactivity that we'd probably want to add new stuff for if we come up with anything)

[glass gulch]

It's already being worked on.

[safe sphinx]

If anyone is doing graphical work (or for someone to pass onto Vedel), I saw someone comment to have evil for the DLC and the thing is I think Evil would fit the content better.

For stuff to do in the DLC the ||lantern || control and is it possible to make it so the ||flashlight || when in the DLC area has player control turned off?

[marble lynx]

I also had the thought about ||the lantern|| but I'm worried not having direct control will make some sections much more difficult

[safe sphinx]

I was thinking that as well but could add a disable option in settings to try it out. What about direct control over the ||raft||

[marble lynx]

I can imagine letting Neuro control ||the rafting|| might result in not being able to get to the ||hidden gorge||

Maybe they could 'stack' control though?

So he can override a bit

[safe sphinx]

What about ||matrix raft|| as its go/stop? Also how about letting them "tap" into it for the lol with random lighting effects or (within the level design)

Basically ||Agent Smith Mode||

[velvet zinc]

Fuck it, just give her control of the whole ||Stranger||

[safe sphinx]

I'd love that as well but I think a bit to game breaking

[marble lynx]

Actually, giving her generic control over ||any light sensor based interfaces, like the rafts, elevators, airlocks, and doors, letting her activate one of the directional lights but letting Vedal still override by highlighting the other one, maybe||

[teal anchor]

Cinema

[marble lynx]

We do think we can do some basic stuff like ||letting her control the light flickering, as a jumpscare||

[safe sphinx]

||Evil laughing and other jumpscare sound clips in the matrix||

[marble lynx]

Other than less use of autopilot, I feel like Vedal would really enjoy the DLC. Less story, more puzzles

I think the design is a lot tighter than the base game

[hybrid zinc]

I don't like the idea of letting Neuro control the lantern. Or the raft. Or any of the lights. It feels really immersion/game breaking.

Neuro being the ship worked because the ship was hearthian in nature, I don't think Neuro should be able to touch anything non-hearthian

That's just my two cents

[safe sphinx]

They knew what they were doing and what worked by the time they got to it. As I've said before I've only watched it but even though its a "single playthough" game its still fun watching new people play it so they did a really good job

[marble lynx]

Reasonable take. I'm just not sure if that leaves anything for her to do

[hybrid zinc]

Also it would be a awkward with how lights or controls are registered, like does vedal have to look at them? That means he has to beg Neuro every time he wants to do something. And if he has control himself then why would he ever bother asking Neuro for a 1s interaction

[marble lynx]

That's fair

[hybrid zinc]

Yeah... Not much..

[marble lynx]

He does have to beg Neuro to fly around, but I could see that getting a lot more annoying with the DLC

[hybrid zinc]

Just his taxi back to the ||stranger|| at the start of every loop

[marble lynx]

We can certainly give her more context messages so she can keep up with what's happening, but there wouldn't be much interactivity unless we give her something

Maybe Vedal can turn on the scout control commands for the DLC specifically

There's a few places where the scout is useful

[hybrid zinc]

For the two scout light puzzles?

[marble lynx]

Yeah

[safe sphinx]

What about some kind of "go off and do your own thing" command when he is there and every so often Vedal gets a photo of something she is looking at or a "opps" followed by "ship destroy" message. Or will this cause issues with scene loading?

[marble lynx]

Yeah, runs into sector loading issues, the game unloads all the planets' visuals when you ||enter the Stranger's cloaking field||

[safe sphinx]

I thought I read something about that plus the two other main game areas which do it

[marble lynx]

||Quantum Moon and Bramble actually do keep everything loaded still, they just disable photos so you don't notice the tricks they used to load things in||

[hybrid zinc]

I feel like the right approach is to just give her more context - maybe let vedal shoot the scout onto a surface and then Neuro receives context for that surface? Like the bridge or any of the towers iykwim

Idk im just spitballing here

[marble lynx]

Giving her more info tied to leaving the scout on objects is an interesting idea

[safe sphinx]

Ah
But I expect a beefy enough computer could handle it but it would likely need heavy testing so I guess a no go for now

[marble lynx]

Not too many places where that's helpful but it's better than nothing

[hybrid zinc]

I feel like he'd just ignore the entire mechanic

And it's kind of a pain to setup cuz each thing probably needs to be hooked individually

[marble lynx]

Oh yeah, it certainly could work, but it would be really tricky to implement. Outer Wilds' LOD system is really complex and hard to modify

[safe sphinx]

How many machanics did he ignore in the end? Like he didn't even notice the DLC stuff though since it wasn't there during the tutorial and he never went back I can't fully blame him.

[marble lynx]

Not that bad, to be honest, there's only so many things that would need to be rigged up anyway and they all have their 'controller' scripts on the parent objects of the colliders, so easy to do a Scout parent -> GetComponentInParent<>() call

[dusky glacier]

Maybe can give or some image of at least context of what the image has for the DLC slides so she can semi understand what Vedal is seeing. Can maybe also change the colour of Vedal lantern so Neuro can play around with it without impacting the gameplay for a few ideas. Giving context on the stranger dam state, when colours/Ship LCD flickers can help with better context.

[marble lynx]

Context for slides would be tricky, we'd either need to write some text descriptions by hand for every slide or give her the ship log facts directly as Vedal watches the slide related to them

Which would probably lead to her trying to spoil

[safe sphinx]

Wasn't there already a ship log setting which was just turned off?

[marble lynx]

She does have her vision module but I don't know if it'll understand the slide reel visual style well

[dusky glacier]

yeah I think someone talked in here about giving Neuro the scout image so she can see what is happening but not sure that worked I think there was either a image size limit or limit on the API so it could not send images. Might need to add some context to every slide which would be a pain and slow to do for them.

[marble lynx]

Yeah, NeuroScope can send ship logs, but we determined at the time that it was likely to lead to her spoiling related information from her training data

[velvet zinc]

I do think it would be fun to feed Neuro context of what’s Vedal is seeing when he is ||looking through the slides||

So that they can both comment on what they just saw

[safe sphinx]

Is their vision part of the API and you just send them a PNG of the slide? That way they might not know its part of the game so less likely to spoil something but it lets them comment on it.

[frozen ermine]

vision is not part of the game api

it's text-only

[safe sphinx]

I suppose reasonable since Vedal needs to specifically turn it on

[frozen ermine]

ig the best you can do is prompt to use vision module but idk sounds like a bad workaround

[swift gust]

i wonder whos editing this

(i hope they leave ernesto in)

[spice spire]

||i would recommend coming up with visual descriptions of slides and passing as context||

[marble lynx]

Yeah, I do think that's probably the best option

There are a lot of ||slide reels/vision torches, but there's a finite number, so we can potentially write up some slide index + text description pairs||

[swift gust]

i love the black hole forge realization

peak actual correct OW gameplay

[civic steeple]

Just my opinion, but I think you do need to add more interactivity to Neuro for the stream to be truly interesting, as well as to keep Vedal himself interested. As long as you can somewhat explain it as her influence through the player, I think it's fine to have her affect things that are not hearthian.

For example, her activating some light controls could just be her using some suit lights that you can't actually see. You could also literally have lights appear, but that doesn't sound super feasible for a mod to do. Ideally you could have her fly the scout around or something, but again, I assume there are strict limits on what you can do to the game. Still, I think interaction, rather than just reaction, is important.

[swift gust]

there are 0 strict limits on what you can do with the game, its just unity. the limits are devtime and what feels wrong for stream

we were actually discussing some kind of fairy lights thing ||in the sim||

and giving control over ||the stranger sun||

[civic steeple]

Is it that easy? I've never tried to mod a game tbh, and some of the stuff I've seen from other games being modded seems very limited

[swift gust]

a mono based unity game basically opens up creation on the level of the unity editor with the right tools

modding this is about the same as making that section of a game in the first place

[civic steeple]

Huh, my experience with modding is mostly seeing DougDoug writing mods for Skyrim and GTA 5, and both of those seemed like a pain to do anything in. That's cool though, it's still hard to program complicated stuff in obviously, but yeah it'd be cool to have some fun interactions. ||I'm not sure about the stranger sun though, since that has some implications, I guess if it's obvious it's a mod thing i.e. rainbow lights it could be good||

[glass gulch]

The implications are that your AI ||hacked into the Strange||.

[civic steeple]

||In general I kinda like the idea of having her be a hacker that took control of some of the stranger's systems, it would be tricky to make it fun but not immersion breaking though||

Yeah lol

[glass gulch]

I came up with some things in the OW modding server, but I want to keep them a surprise.

[civic steeple]

I'm looking forward to it if you can do some cool things, these streams with Neuro as a pilot were really fun

[marble lynx]

Something else we could do with that to 'soften' the Neuro-ness of it is only let her do it ||on the second loop after encountering the Stranger|| so his initial exploration is mostly vanilla

[glass gulch]

Some things won't be unlocked until you get related discoveries too.

[civic steeple]

Her having progressively more control as the loops go by ||and she "hacks further" into the Stranger|| could be great lol

[swift gust]

"Where do i put this" "yes i see that chat" "idk maybe ill just go"

"steal the ship" "mmh yeah"

he walked right into that one

[swift gust]

yknow what i just realized

given the OW community

neuro was probably trained almost exclusively on cryptic hints from reddit

rather than actual info

thats probably why she was so good these streams

[swift gust]

man

ive never seen anyone get stuck at the vortex

[spice spire]

should've modded in signs with giant red arrows

[glass gulch]

I haven't watched the full VOD yet but the first hour is clear evidence that he doesn't deserve to have finished today

[swift gust]

no, but also its not too bad

neuro does good at the eye

its a bit obvious vedal is still streamer brained, but it tones down some

also i never knew you could ||identify people signals at the eye||

[hybrid zinc]

Giving her context of the reels seems like a pretty difficult / inconsistent thing to do, especially if his ADHD brain goes back and forth and back and forth between the same reel 4 times

So if context is sent individually every time he sees a slide for the first time she'll just end up getting blasted with 15 contexts in <1s
(Later edit: I guess you can just bundle it together? Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh that maybe works)

[hybrid zinc]

I think the amount of Neuro interactivity that we had in base game was pretty good. She was given control of a normally player controlled object and allowed to explore alongside Vedal, and they were basically working together.
There are less opportunities for that in the dlc, and just shoving Neuro actions in just for the sake of it will result in it seeming random/arbitrary and disconnected, forced, and not making much sense

[hybrid zinc]

Maybe I'm just an outer wilds purist but I feel like this mod shouldn't encroach on any game mechanics or visuals unless it's for a really good reason (like Neuro ship) -- which I can't think of, unless I'm missing some opportunities for Neuro actions that are slipping my mind

I'd be interested to hear what ideas there are though maybe I'm just overlooking things (pls ping on reply)

[jovial sphinx]

Silly idea, why not make neuro appear in key locations within ||the dream world||

[plucky compass]

Hearing the filter stopping her from spoiling the game gave me the idea of her being an old AI robot of the nomads (idk how they are spelled), but she was broken so every time she wants to give important information she breaks down.

[plucky compass]

So, I never played this game or the dlc, but the great part of Nuero's interaction inside the ship is that he always knows which one of the two of them was controlling the ship and he can order anytime to take or give control, so (going on what I understood) what if she can unlock only control of places/things they went/interacted before and can only control near things, she doesn't start instantly controlling things until she turns on the controls or Vedal orders her to (possibly making her know she shouldn't do anything that Vedal didn't order her to) and the game UI always shows whether the controls are on or off somehow.

[glass gulch]

You bring up some good concerns, I feel like we should try to strike a balance to keep the feel of the DLC intact.

[swift gust]

if anyone sees this who has contact with the editor who will edit this vid. May i make a request? It would be very nice to have the ernesto bit in the main video. Its an inside joke in the Outer Wilds community and i had a heck of a time prompting her to finally bring it up.

hmm

[plucky compass]

You mean a video of OW on the main channel?

[swift gust]

ye

[dusty ruin]

who is ernesto

[swift gust]

ernesto the magic talking anglerfish

[dusty ruin]

Idk if that's canon in the game

[glass gulch]

Outer Wilds: Neuropilot: Echoes of the Evil

[glass gulch]

Is it possible that the scout mod somehow re-caused a bug fixed in the most recent Outer Wilds patch where the HEL experiment causes the Twins' orbits to get messed up?

[glass gulch]

Todos:

• Make autopilot disengage and commands update immediately when entering the DLC zone
• Set up unlock structure: actions become available based on which ship log entries the player has
• Implement the effects of actions

Also, fun fact: in the DLC one of the basegame troll/"destructive" commands turns into a good one

[hybrid zinc]

What actions are you thinking of

[candid shard]

random idea: ||neuro can launch scout of course, (maybe with a plushie model), but what if she as the scout could shoot a tranq dart at the player. this could be good trolling for her and a soft hint for the dream world||

[plucky compass]

I approve the scout plushie idea

@surreal zephyr is this possible?

[surreal zephyr]

Generaly changing the scout agaist a neuro plushie is possible, but the plushie would have to be 3d modeld first. I already started on that but didn't get that far yet

[glass gulch]

The other part about it shooting at Vedal is very much a no though.

If the scout becomes plushie based it should also have a lava lamp for the light.

[hybrid zinc]

That would be cute, if we can get a model for it

[swift gust]

does noone have a 3d scan of the actual plush?

[hybrid zinc]

We have a bunch of 3d models in the Subnautica mod

And by a bunch I mean at least 1

[plucky compass]

I swear someone made it, or maybe it was a chibi neuro

[surreal zephyr]

So i go the scout switched with the fumo from the Subnautica mod (as a proof that it works). Won't publish it without the permission of the people who did the model though (also need the names to give them credit). Light is not optimal yet but the camera is working. If i don't get permission it's gonna be back to blender for me.....

[glass gulch]

There's still something worth doing on this: provide a basic AI so that regular people can use the mod to tell their ship what to do.

[plucky compass]

So is the dlc mod still coming?

[glass gulch]

Probably not at this point. Alex didn't like my DLC integration ideas and the other people who were working on the mod seem to have lost interest.

[plucky compass]

Sadge

[glass gulch]

I'll post what my ideas were here.

[plucky compass]

In spoilers, just in case

[glass gulch]

Neuro action: unlock condition

||Toggle Increased Frights (does nothing): Always
Open airlocks: find River Lowlands
Flicker lights: find Hidden Gorge
Turn off artificial sun: enter simulation
Turn off lanterns to enter simulation rooms: enter at SW, SC, or EC
???: Tower puzzle
Increase/reduce gravity: Any Forbidden Archive
Take over big window screens: Two different Forbidden Archives||

The idea is that ||Neuro/Evil is gaining mastery over the Stranger alongside Vedal||

They're also positioned so Vedal experiences everything normally first and they don't interfere with balance at all.

Some of them are conveniences, some of them are trolls.

||Open airlocks would be flavored as a light on the suit, and the lantern thing would be a lantern zapper||

[plucky compass]

Yeah I mean that seems what the general idea was. I haven't played the dlc, but I assume you go through the same things multiple times.

[plucky compass]

I was thinking that every controllable/interactive element is splitted in the smallest part possible, the mod realize when Vedal comes close or interact with each of those things, sends a message to Neuro (maybe) and unlocks an action for her that itself unlocks the control of that element, but only after a restart following the current run. Also possibly most control should be ordered by Vedal than Neuro deciding herself, which tbh that's most of the times.

[surreal zephyr]

well i got some more stuff done, sadly still haven't found the people who made the fumo.... but here is the latest version as video at least... and i think maybe someone needs to take the editor away from me....

[pallid nexus]

i personally do like these ideas. tho i wonder if these are good enough for vedal to want to finish the dlc since its still less neuro-controlled than the main game was with the main ship and all.
if others aren't interested in implementing it i could try implementing them.
i feel like if ||we somehow manage to give neuro control over the rafts maybe that would be enough, like letting neuro set a destination for the boats that are unlocked when vedal first gets there. and then it applies the forces of the light to "drive" it there. achieving similar things to the autopilot but for the rafts||

[plucky compass]

Never let anyone stop you from achieving your dreams.

[glass gulch]

Another thought, it could be worth mentioning this to DougDoug because it seems like the kind of thing he'd do something with maybe? ignore this, he's already played apparently

[plucky compass]

Say, if this becomes a more public mod, would localization be useful?

[glass gulch]

Possibly? Although there are a lot of other steps in order to get there

[frozen ermine]

That would probably be a bit harder as then you'd need to make it less through the Neuro API which I imagine is pretty ingrained into the mod

[swift gust]

its technically already public

just grab it from the github and throw togeather a gary instance

just a little bit to involved for most people

[frozen ermine]

thing is gary performance varies greatly with specs which idk if dougdoug has enough since he always relies on openai models
but yeah if you want to have something like this for your playthrough then it works well enough

[glass gulch]

It sounds like there are other issues with Dougdoug playing

[swift gust]

well theres Jippity too but i havent used it

[frozen ermine]

I mean it works but it would be funny if chat was involved

in classic dougdoug style

[glass gulch]

It seems weird that Vedal doesn't want to do the DLC because it doesn't have as much integration, but then he wants to do The Witness of all things

[plucky compass]

I think the thing is that up until now what made OW interesting for streaming was the integration, so it could feel like a downgrade.
But who knows, it wasn't a definitive no.

[glass gulch]

So after The Witness it will feel like an upgrade again.

[plucky compass]

I think he'll only compare it with the base game.
Also, could have a setting that just disabled any extra neuro integration for the DLC? If he has more leeway and more choices with it there could be more chance for a playthrough.

[glass gulch]

Right now the only extra integration is ||"Toggle Increased Frights" which does nothing but it's funny||

[frozen ermine]

this tbh

[swift gust]

15 hours...

[glass gulch]

What?

[swift gust]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4tZa5xqKU

[frozen ermine]

MONKA

[swift gust]

favorite bit

the other person who noticed

[dusty ruin]

Oh yea I forgor I need to watch that

[swift gust]

wow it really was!

[frozen ermine]

what is that

[swift gust]

outer wilds design works