Neuro and Evil should play It Takes Two
#Multiplayer Games For Neuro & Evil To Play Together
sonic kindle
steady pine
how
sonic kindle
Hmm. I'm not too sure tbh, I just thought it would be cool. Watching Cerber and Mini play it rn and I've realised it's probably a bit too hard for the twins to learn.
valid gust
Neuro & Evil's LLM models only allow them to truly play games that are turn/decision based, anything else is beyond our current scope
sonic kindle
ahhh fair enough, that makes sense, is there a 2 player game that fits those descriptions?
valid gust
chess is in the works
umbral ocean
board games when
sonic kindle
chess is in the works
i swear ive seen them play chess already? neuro gave evil big smack talk then lost 3-0 or smthn
onyx stone
chess is in the works
get them to play hazbros family game night lmao
actually i don't think there was ever a pc port
valid gust
i swear ive seen them play chess already? neuro gave evil big smack talk then lo...
oh yeah they did, was probably thinking of other chess-related additions then
oh and both playing Minecraft at the same time is also an idea, no progress report just yet tho
sonic kindle
Multiplayer Games For Neuro & Evil To Play Together
manic tulip
Vedals response was my first thought due to how open that game space is
valid gust
Among Us was in the works at some point and could have easily been extended to both twins at the same time if it was ever completed
don't think that's ever seeing the light of day tho
sonic kindle
amongus has kinda died down tbh but a full among us lobby with the twins and vedal, camila, mini, etc would be really fun
onyx stone
Among Us was in the works at some point and could have easily been extended to b...
wasn't this it's own seperate AI with some llm integration
valid gust
wasn't this it's own seperate AI with some llm integration
it's similar to the current way Minecraft is run
valid gust
amongus has kinda died down tbh but a full among us lobby with the twins and ved...
yeah, the work and effort required makes it hard to commit for the little amount longevity it'll have in the long run, even if the content it'll create would be funny/interesting
sonic kindle
do you think the twins would be able to play brawlhalla? also ive never seen anything about this game so i have no idea how possible it would be but split fiction could be fun
valid gust
perhaps some other social deduction game, not even necessarily Town of Salem, but maybe like a self-hosted Blood On The Clocktower could be interesting
onyx stone
it's similar to the current way Minecraft is run
I thought minecraft was re worked to be more like a drone with commands that control it so the AI is just simple pathfinding and data being sent from the world like player positions, sign data, nearby blocks and items etc.
the OLD minecraft integration was a seperate AI
valid gust
I thought minecraft was re worked to be more like a drone with commands that con...
It's separate bot/AI model that can control the player's actions. It allows the twins to use that as a mediator to decide what they want do to in the game, although they still can't control exactly HOW to do it
The old Minecraft AI was completely separate where Neuro and the game had no interaction, so there was no decision making, just Neuro commenting over what's happening in game
onyx stone
It's separate bot/AI model that can control the player's actions. It allows the ...
I just simply don't think it's a separate model anymore. I do think it's a bot with integration though.
I don't think evil would have been able to build a house otherwise
valid gust
It's "separate" as in not part of the LLM, but interactible by the LLM
sonic kindle
id assume the AI they use has build schematics that they can select
onyx stone
but every house they have built is different and has flaws
I think the struggle with getting them to build a house in the first place was them remembering how one would be built
valid gust
I don't think evil would have been able to build a house otherwise
I think the way this works is that they choose to build something, somehow some way a template is generated for what it should look like, there's a quick evaluation to check available materials, then optionally a collection process for said materials, and lastly locking the template in and then navigating/placing blocks accordingly
onyx stone
I think the way this works is that they choose to build something, somehow some ...
this is probably the way this works yes
however i think the evaluation is done first
by getting items in inventory then generating from there
onyx stone
because it's not just houses shes built
i actually was to believe that the llm can give commands in a list over to the bot
and it can run those in order
for more basic builds
if true would be a TON of work to get it to build proper
elfin kelp
Maybe split the controls of a game between the two so they have to cooperate and blame each other when something goes wrong lol
sonic kindle
like the 1-player keyboard, 1-player mouse videos?
elfin kelp
Yah
sonic kindle
could be fun, i dont know anything about coding tho so i cant give input on how it might work lol
valid gust
I don't think it's a list of commands just yet, otherwise there'd be a queue system, but she showcases a lack of "continuing where you left off" skills
sonic kindle
based on how i see her constantly trying to collect wood and iron when she dies, im assuming part of her code is to retrieve iron tools and then get more freedom on what she wants to do
valid gust
I'm pretty sure she's just given coordinates of her last death location, which she can choose to return to via the move command
elfin kelp
I think a big part of them getting distracted is chat
sonic kindle
do you know why they are destructive? surely they know the difference between generated blocks, and placed blocks. i mean thats already a detectable trait in minecraft with leaves. generated die without wood, placed dont. is this just not implemented for her?
valid gust
I just don't think it's implemented, so they can't tell the difference
sonic kindle
fair
valid gust
and by "they" I mean the bot that just tries to figure out the fastest, most effective way to navigate/collect materials
elfin kelp
Yah they usually end up breaking the blocks they just placed when they need to collect more of that block
sonic kindle
yeah i getchu, ive also noticed her api can basically use xray lmao. i think for her thats fair, as she'd be there for ages otherwise and thats not content, but i wonder if that came with the api or if it was added
elfin kelp
yeah i getchu, ive also noticed her api can basically use xray lmao. i think for...
Wait does PKMN mean Pokémon or pikmin
sonic kindle
Pokemon lol
elfin kelp
Ah
valid gust
I think there's just a command that looks for the closest iron ore near her and then makes her move to it
also applies to beds and chests and such
sonic kindle
that would make sense, i guess its part of the same command that tells her where the nearest of any material she wants is
valid gust
with her slow decision making and "easily distracted nature", it's kind of a necessity to have xd
sonic kindle
agreed
just a quick question, what do you think is the most advanced game she might be able to play with her current abilities
valid gust
I think Minecraft is it tbh
valid gust
everything is easily calculatable thanks to its voxel nature, and since the modding is very open and in-depth, it's also not overly difficult to get into
onyx stone
im assuming she would be best with linear games
i actually don't agree with this one
if it's linear branching paths maybe
sonic kindle
i just thought like a repetitive game like a party game (chess, buckshot, liars bar) and a linear game (that forces her down a single path) would make things easiest. its decisions that confuse her after all
valid gust
im assuming she would be best with linear games
it's not necessarily the linearity, it's the fact that she can only generate responses every so often, so making decisions in live time is impossible. The only way that can be surpassed is by an in-game bot/mediator that is capable of getting inputs and playing the game itself, and creating something like that for every single game is too much
sonic kindle
i guess thats why vedal opts for him playing with them telling him what to do
valid gust
i just thought like a repetitive game like a party game (chess, buckshot, liars ...
party/board games would work quite well, as long as they don't also have real-time decision making minigames like Mario Party
valid gust
i guess thats why vedal opts for him playing with them telling him what to do
exactly! He becomes the "mediator" and then giving Neuro/Evil the chance to make decisions whenever they can
no AI/bot necessary
sonic kindle
it certainly allows for a wider range of games to be played on steam
valid gust
making the twins play various games on their own is gonna be the most convoluted problem to ever find a solution for
sonic kindle
true, sounds like a lot of sweat, tears, and restless nights lmao
valid gust
even if someone managed to make an AI that has a good sense for looking at specific pixels on the screen and then making button presses / decisions that best fit the scenario, that still wouldn't work with Neuro/Evil because they would still have 0 input in the gameplay
that AI would either have to be modified to be turned off at special decision making points that allows the twins to actually have input in the game, or their LLMs would need to be expanded to a whole new level of existence, allowing them to handle more complex things in real time
either solution is ridiculous, and I'm not sure if we'll ever even see them lmao
sonic kindle
yeah at the end of the day, its an option of letting the twins react to an ai play, or let the twins use code to understand how to do things themselves
valid gust
it's my assumption that one day we'll surpass the basic LLM and expand onto an AI that mimics the human brain, with various sectors of AI like the human brain - one for storing memory, one for creativity, one for understanding language, etc - and this will be used to create an AI that's truly capable of real-time human-like interaction
maybe it'll be possible to expand a regular LLM into such a state in some way, but if not, you'd have to create a new AI from scratch, feed it all of Neuro's past VODs, and then hope it accepts its identity as "Neuro-sama" with all her past memories
that might be one hell of a future
sonic kindle
i doubt they could ever perfectly mimic humans. they'd have to understand how we think, and i feel they would find more efficent ways to do things that remove our flaws
valid gust
we've truly gone off to a whole new topic in this discussion thread huh xd
sonic kindle
i was thinking that lol, i welcome it tho
valid gust
i doubt they could ever perfectly mimic humans. they'd have to understand how we...
we can get them as close as possible, but they'll definitely have their own identity, and they'll definitely have their own flaws as well, similar to humans, but in their own way
nothing will ever truly be perfect, and a "black box" AI model, just like a human brain, can make anything possible
...I wonder if the game "100% Orange Juice" could be a good co-op game 🤔
sonic kindle
what is that?
valid gust
board game. Roll rice, move spaces, random events, chaos, and pretty sure no real-time stuff(?)
sonic kindle
so like mario party but less brain hurt
valid gust
actually, I've got one better
Dokapon Kingdom
up to 4ppl
I've seen a full playthrough of that game, it's literally perfect
sonic kindle
looking at its steam page, it seems interesting but r u sure its not too much inputs for neuro
valid gust
it's got turn-based battle, various character events, chaos, and it's surprisingly simple to play
maybe it might be a bit hard to find the objective if you wanna see them complete it, but it should also be easy to help them with directions if necessary
valid gust
either with a "default direction" that leads them towards it, or a helping "objective is this way" line at every interjection
valid gust
imagine the twins playing fps chess lmao
imagine chess with fog of war, or even 5D chess with time travel and parallel universes
elfin kelp
Kirby’s epic yarn. You can’t die, you can only Kirb
valid gust
I've seen that full game, it's cute
valid gust
Unfortunately it's a 2D platformer xd
sonic kindle
do you think they could play Super Mario Bros 2, with one as mario and one as Luigi
elfin kelp
Unfortunately it's a 2D platformer xd
The most forgiving 2D platformer in existence
valid gust
it'd take them a full 6 hour stream to get through the first level
and that'd be using guided inputs to make them do it faster
xdx
elfin kelp
I just want to see the twins Kirb around
valid gust
If you modified a game of Tetris to be slow enough for the twins to play, I wonder what their gameplay would look like
elfin kelp
Actually, it being a linear 2D platformer means they won’t get lost nearly as bad as in Minecraft. If they have simple commands like “walk forward” that automatically navigates ledges and enemies, it might work well enough for the first few levels
valid gust
I forgot, is there a gem requirement or sth to complete a level?
elfin kelp
Don’t remember
valid gust
well anyway, it'd become a lot more difficult once you need to do moves like "jump and attack at the top of your jump", how would they know exactly how to time those buttons?
elfin kelp
That can probably be handled by the bot they would use
If something they are trying to interact with is too high, jump then attack
valid gust
now the next question is how would you go about botting it, and who would even create the bot
and also would Nintento come after your ass for owning an illegal, modified, and emulated copy of the game on a PC
elfin kelp
Well it’s a Wii game so there is mods of it
Failboat plays modded Kirb games on stream all the time
valid gust
huh, interesting
elfin kelp
Heck, if we are modding it, the levels could be edited to make it nwero-friendly
valid gust
well anyway, you can have fun dreaming, but I can 100% confirm you won't be seeing any 2D platformers played by Neuro for the next couple of years minimum xd
remember that one game journalist that couldn't complete the tutorial level of Cuphead?
yeah that's what Neuro's peak gameplay performance is gonna look like
anyway imma head off to sleep xd
elfin kelp
Wow looking at gameplay, this Kirb game is just as cute and violent as the twins
Failboat is only one dougdoug away from assimilation and we already have kirb fans here so it’s only a matter of time 
sonic kindle
do you think neuro could play geometry dash
elfin kelp
That’s entirely reaction based
She wouldn’t be making any of the decisions so it would be more like osu
marble loom
Maybe YOMI Hustle could be a good game for them to play, although its pretty damn complicated for a turn based game
torn grail
What if Neuro and Evil play The Dark Pictures Anthology?
elfin kelp
with ascii https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNUTyc2gnXQ
lol I have ChatGPT this MSpaint image in ascii a while back to see what it does
For simpler ascii it seems to already have some spatial understanding from its training data
warm plaza
well, i'm not sure ascii is viable since it would stil require individual training to recognize screen grabs in ascii format, and i do wonder if ascii would cause the neuros brain damage by teaching them to spit out walls of ascii text
elfin kelp
I mean you could probably simplify it to a very small image that has symbols that are given meaning by the prompt so it only needs spatial reasoning for it
It would be for deciding where to go and knowing what things are where spatially
hybrid meteor
what about some old school games like on Nintendo emulator? (don't know how well that would work) (bubble bobble, contra, donkey kong, kirby, FF. could do N64, golden eye, killer instinct. emulator you can have them pick games to play lots of options.) twisted metal was my fav.
warm plaza
getting neuro to play this game looks complicated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAWHzGNcTEw
balmy path
Minecraft AI is way ahead of anything else because of the sheer amount of training data from videos and the popularity of the game in general. Don't suggest a game unless it already has an existing AI or can be played by feeding it an instruction every few seconds.
warm plaza
Minecraft AI is way ahead of anything else because of the sheer amount of traini...
but vedal and alex made an api so neuro could play fan made games which don't exactly have an existing ai
balmy path
but vedal and alex made an api so neuro could play fan made games which don't ex...
Those fall under the category of games that can be played by just giving an instruction every few seconds.
night raptor
Everyone has to understand that for 
to play a game:
- the whole game state has to be accurately describable in text
- there needs to be a discrete action space (no continuous actions or at the very least simple continuous actions that dont need to be precise, for example look little to the right is a continuous action, but play a card would be a discrete yes or no action that neuro wants)
- it needs to not be reaction based, since s neural network can have unpredictable answering time
- and needs to be simple enough for neuro to understand without essays of text explaining everything
Alex has explained this a couple of times
for example, what 
has done with minecraft is REEEALLLY stretching the capabilities of s game integration, and even that is only possible because of the action engine that is integrated into the minecraft, where neuro isnt really moving the camera, rather doing stuff like : mine block at position -3,1,1 and the camera turning automatically
night raptor
would they be able to play plate up?
might not be the best game, since it requires quick action and the cooking can get pretty complex, probably too complex for
harsh crystal
i always thought that the best game for both of them to play would be guess who it fits all the requirements
pls vedal it would be peak
glass compass
Osu requires quick action and response. If they can play that they can learn to play other games that require reaction or precision.
marble loom
Osu requires quick action and response. If they can play that they can learn to...
They aren't actually playing it tho, more like commentating on another ai trained to play osu. It's not like minecraft, chess, slay the spire, or buckshot, where they can actually carry out their will and intentionally take actions within the game. It's why Vedal doesn't really care about osu on streams anymore because he likes games where Neuro can actually interact with much better. There's not much flexibility to give choice and freedom to Neuro with games like Osu either so he can't really change anything to allow Neuro to play more deeply like how he updated minecraft and chess game interaction.
rugged frigate
could they be able to play pokemon? maybe they could play pokemon showdown against eachother
sonic kindle
pokemon is really difficult. it only feels easy caue its been the same formula for 20 years
marble loom
could they be able to play pokemon? maybe they could play pokemon showdown again...
Yes, I'm pretty sure Neuro did play pokemon showdown during her hiyori days. also claude and gemini played full pokemon games
She's gotta be smarter to play a full pokemon game tho I think
rugged frigate
yeah a full pokemon game would be harder for them to play, but if she already played showdown way back they could maybe play against eachother
marble loom
She's gotta be smarter to play a full pokemon game tho I think
By full pokemon game I mean like pokemon red and blue. Like the first ever pokemon games. She definitely can't play a more modern pokemon game I think
also it took claude and gemini a really long time to finish
rugged frigate
yeah i assumed you meant an old pokemon game since recent ones are 3D and 3D not good for nwero, and her playing an old pokemon game would be mostly her getting lost since i doubt she'll read much dialogue
though who knows, maybe she just looks up where to go lol
marble loom
Yea I think it would be a genuinely exciting moment to see Neuro or Evil finish their first full semi-linear game completely by themselves tho (buckshot or slay the spire or minecraft don't really count in the same way right?). Someone should work on a pokemon red/blue mod to insert neuroverse members inside lol. It could be a whole fun event I think. Imagine them doing nuzlockes after as well.
rugged frigate
it would also be fun to see what nicknames the twins give to their pokemon
though it wouldnt be very enjoyable if she just constantly gets lost, which i dont know how easy it is to fix, but i imagine not easy at all
marble loom
ofc, I was just fantasizing about the future a little bit. If Vedal manages to make it work well it would truly be a great accomplishment.
warm plaza
Those fall under the category of games that can be played by just giving an inst...
neuro can play fortnite if she gives an instruction every few seconds
balmy path
I know there's a Pokemon roguelike mod, that's more linear so it's harder to get stuck dumb ways.
tepid sapphire
how
2 viewer can (some web rdp?) control a player, but the twins choose which viewer control their player (and will probably roast the player in the meantime, kick them, etc)
rugged frigate
I know there's a Pokemon roguelike mod, that's more linear so it's harder to get...
oh yeah, i forgot about pokerogue, i think she could be able to play that yeah
rustic dew
Idk if it was already mentioned but why not let them play Battleships together?
sick blade
Neuro and Evil asynchronously playing coop games live through some universalized visual feedback input dynamic is just a matter of time and as lit as getting them crazy robot bodies.
warm plaza
Neuro and Evil asynchronously playing coop games live through some universalized...
yeah but to get there i argue the foundation needs to be set up. acamaeda was implying to just let someone else do it first and copy their homework.
I don't care if it's scuffed the attempt itself is interesting and a learning experience and later on we will be able to look back and see how much things have improved. That would be good content for dev streams. it's about the journey 
meager ore
They could play yomi hustle (your only move is hustle) it’s a turn based fighting game
torn grail
How about they play monster prom?
tidal vessel
/\
main chasm
Pong shouldnt be to hard to program
half trout
Neuro and Evil are already programmed to play Liar's Bar and Buckshot Roulette. Maybe Evil could have her own account, and they could play against each other. I really hope we can see Neuro and Evil playing against each other in games more in the future.
limber zephyr
