Neurobot-1000 3d model project

[opaque quartz]

immortal neuro with nuclear power plant entanglement

[red oyster]

Yes, exactly

Power draw is no longer an issue

Range isn't an issue

There are no more issues

Wi-Fi signals were shown to power battery-free temperature and camera sensors at ranges of up to 20 feet. It was also shown that Wi-Fi can be used to wirelessly trickle-charge nickel–metal hydride and lithium-ion coin-cell batteries at distances of up to 28 feet.

Hear me out

If we give her a streaming room with constant power supply from all sides...

[opal bane]

we lock her in a room

a rubber room

no rats though

I SAID NO RATS

AAAAAAAAA

[red oyster]

Lmao

But we could integrate her with batteries that allow her to leave the room for a period of time or remain operational for longer stretches inside the room

And some shielding in the walls would prevent any radiation, if there is any

Haven't looked into it too much yet

[opaque quartz]

we want as much range as possible whilst achieving human-level dexterity

range = energy density of battery storage, plus any portable recharging methods such as solar, wind, fuel generator, etc that refil the battery storage

if we can find a refil method that inputs more energy than she spends, she has technically indefinite range so long as she can find the fuel for recharging

ethanol engines are a good option because their fuel is cheap, safe, and abundant, and also because memes

solar is another good option

[red oyster]

Loud

Solar isn't efficient enough

Unless she has a backpack that unfolds into a large panel

[opaque quartz]

ideally we'd want to use a high pressure stirling engine or thermoaccoustic heat engine

not as much horsepower for its size, but very reliable, quiet, efficient, and low maintenance

likely not enough horsepower to refil on the move, would have to 'rest' instead

Luckily infinite range is not needed for early versions

[opaque quartz]

yeah that'd be the ideal solar recharging method

[red oyster]

I say we burn coal, compress the gasses, and then release the built up gas at socially acceptable times

[opaque quartz]

lol

[red oyster]

I make myself laugh sometimes

[opaque quartz]

coal embers pumped into eye pupils

anger

[red oyster]

Angy neuro

[opaque quartz]

that reminds me, she needs to be able to puff out cheeks

[queen field]

Ethanol is an extremely agressive fuel, though. Engines designed to run on Ethanol last nowhere near as long as engines designed for petrol or diesel, simply because the ethanol attacks the metal of the engine itself.

[opaque quartz]

that's like the one expression i forgot

[red oyster]

Oh...

Umm

[opaque quartz]

was thinking stirling not conventional

[red oyster]

Idk how to do that easily

[opaque quartz]

should've specified

ethanol corrodes metal yee

[queen field]

That does not change the fact that the fuel is still destroying the engine, Stirling or not.

[opaque quartz]

gonna look that up rq, ty

[red oyster]

The only issue I have with an engine in general is fumes and pollution. I'd rather neuro remain as green as possible

[opaque quartz]

hmmm can't find anything problematic about ethanol heating Stirling engines.

[queen field]

Ultimately which fuel y'all settle for is fine with me, just be aware that if ethanol is what we gun for then having a spare engine or two in case of engine failure would be a good idea.

[red oyster]

Spare parts are a necessity in general, so I agree

[queen field]

No no, a full complete unused engine, not just spare parts. There's a point where simply removing the destroyed engine for a new one is faster and simpler than replacing the broken part, such as a destroyed engine block.

[opaque quartz]

engine failure of compressed air stirling engine would be explosive. Does a naked ethanol flame really corrode metal? I've not found any info on this. That said the chamber would have very thick walls, it's not a compressed, combusting ethanol gas as used in conventional piston engines

pretty much all stirling engines run on ethanol for many years

[queen field]

Also doesn't help that my area of expertise isn't Stirling engines, given cars don't run on Stirling engines, so for all I know my advise is moot at best.
Y'all do what y'all know, I'm just here.

[opaque quartz]

np np

i really appreciate the feedback becasue it got me to step back, and consider something i hadn't bothered to, but should've

[night tartan]

There seems to be products to (probably temporarly) avoid those corrosions

[opaque quartz]

the more of that the better tbh

[ruby lagoon]

Does a naked ethanol flame really corrode metal?
Just looked it up. Apparently it does because the combustion creates acids. The burn chamber could be lined with some different materials that resist those though, which would be harder to do in other engines.

[opaque quartz]

the more angles we cover and things we check, the better

[opaque quartz]

excellent ty

how corrosion-resistant is tungsten?

it has very good thermal properties

wait nvm ignore that

we want high heat transfer rate for the burn chamber

[ruby lagoon]

Maybe a lining of glass or ceramic surrounded by copper (or tungsten) heat pipes made for the higher temperature.

[queen field]

Not sure how Stirling engines work, but for conventional engines - IE what gramms' car runs on - the ethanol is mixed into the gasoline, forming a mixture which is leaner on the fossil fuels, and thus reduces the carbon footprint of the fuel. Problem is, ethanol eats engines like Neuro does cookies, so even cars with engines specifically designed for ethanol use are notoriously known within the mechanic sphere as being difficult and annoying to repair, as they corrode faster than regular E95/E98/diesel engines.
My guess is that the bottle you found is an additional additive for the fuel, to reduce the effect of the ethanol on the engine, but I could be wrong.

[night tartan]

Probably true, it cannot be magic or mega effective

[queen field]

Aye.

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, found some: https://www.1-act.com/thermal-solutions/passive/heat-pipes/high-temp/

[red oyster]

I need to not be at work rn

This sucks

[night tartan]

you can do it

[red oyster]

I wanna work on gear boxes and stuff

😭

Chat, today is my 4th day on the server, how have I done so much

[opal bane]

i would like to bring up my portable power drone+bluetooth electricity idea i had about 6000 messages ago

[red oyster]

Drones are a legal issue depending on where it's at, and Bluetooth electricity doesn't exist, it's wifi based

[opal bane]

same differenceish

[red oyster]

Fair

We could just make neuro fly, ez

[night tartan]

A jetpack for neuro

[red oyster]

Wait, are we eventually going to have both twins?

[opal bane]

of course

[red oyster]

Okay, good

[night tartan]

Hopefully. I want them to hug each other

[red oyster]

Same

[queen field]

Part of me dreads the moment when Ellie finally finds time to check this here out, and ends up calling us overambitious sillies.

[opal bane]

the shippers will unfortunately be eating quite well the first twin body stream

[red oyster]

Vedal needs his face reveal to be a family portrait with the twins and anny

[night tartan]

He removes hit turtle mask: He still wears another mask bellow it

[opal bane]

peak cinema

[queen field]

Scooby Doo Turtle.

[opal bane]

ORRR she absolutely loves this

[red oyster]

Who is Ellie again? Is that the Neuro dog person?

[opal bane]

yes

[ruby lagoon]

I mean, we are overambitious sillies

[red oyster]

We're gonna be judged hard

[queen field]

That's the hoped outcome, but something tells me that she'll see we're all way out of scope for the project, and stuff will be scaled back so we can get a prototype of the prototype.
After all, she herself said she could make a bipedal robot under $10K, as she expected $5K for the robot dog and came in underbudget for that. And something tells me we're a bit over $10K already.

[red oyster]

I can make an easy bipedal, it just won't look like neuro

[ruby lagoon]

...we are all way out of scope for the project

[night tartan]

That's without good finger control so... probably over 20K to be realistic. Also... ellie is probably not conidering the stetical aspect in that budget, something she's concerned about a bipedal for neuro

[ruby lagoon]

Rather, the problem we have is that our initial goal is too hard, and it's likely a lot of people burn out before something is actually made

[queen field]

Again, we can hope she'll be onboard with this silly project and help in all her ways, but chances are she's gonna have to be a reasonable adult about this.

[ruby lagoon]

So, breaking into smaller goals or simpler robots is a good idea, for both the motivation of seeing something work at all and having something more advanced that works in the end (or is easily fixed if some of the design was wrong)

[red oyster]

I say we start with a simple bipedal robot without the aesthetic aspect, just so she can learn to walk and interact with the world while v2 is in progress

[ruby lagoon]

Agreed. I've got a custom battery system that should work and I'm working on custom servos still. Those should be interchangeable for market stuff though, but should make things cheaper

[red oyster]

Yeah, once you have those, send them over and I can begin a basic bot for the time being

[ruby lagoon]

(Also we may be lacking an actual electrical engineer, unless someone has those skills)

[queen field]

We could also use someone within like, the machining department. Someone who's well versed and familiar with machining and such.
Alright there's actually quite a few departments we could use some folks from, not just machining.

[ruby lagoon]

Yea. I think some of us are jacks of all trades, but having someone specialized will make it so we don't make common/amateur mistakes.

[red oyster]

I can do CNC machining and 3d printing

Done it before plenty of times

[ruby lagoon]

I've done CNC machining and 3d printing as well. Maybe not on the same level though

[ruby lagoon]

(Hmm... I think my goal will be eventually sending actuator files over with specific BLDC motors then)

[red oyster]

Okay

[ruby lagoon]

My servo stuff shouldn't block any development though. Before they're made, you could just put placeholder cylinders/blocks everywhere

[red oyster]

Need dimensions then

[ruby lagoon]

I mean, you would be giving me the dimensions and required torque/force, and then I'd make a servo (or find one) that fit those requirements or tell if it's possible

[red oyster]

Fair enough

I'll start today after work

I'm off in an hour

[rugged skiff]

I’m sure she’ll get a good laugh at it, there’s a lot of very wild ideas in here tbh.

[queen field]

True that, she'll have a ball and prolly gush over a lot of the ideas.

[opaque quartz]

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/386394843050116622/

absolutely golden reference

not female but it's good enough

[rugged skiff]

What is the main body going to be made of again? I’ve been thinking carbon fiber would be good for most of the body besides the face, and possibly hands.

[ruby lagoon]

vibranium and adamantium

[rugged skiff]

I heard badger mention metallic glass or something before, how heavy is that compared to carbon fiber?

[rugged skiff]

Ah okay yeah I figured.

[ruby lagoon]

Tbh, I think the first one's going to be made of aluminum, TPU, ABS, and some other filaments/materials that are easy to work with

[queen field]

To be fair, under the skin we're more or less homogeneous, save for reproductive parts which we're not concerned about for the robobody.

[red oyster]

Yes

[ruby lagoon]

O yeah, finished the first part of my plugin!

plugin for freecad. Note current license: https://github.com/SimLeek/freecad.actuators

[queen field]

Now this' swell.
The tech details go way over my head as it's not my area of expertise, but as long as the details get done right amongst those who needs it then all is grand.

[rugged skiff]

Alright, aluminum isn’t very strong but it’s cheap and practical I guess. Is there an issue with Carbon Fiber?

[queen field]

Aluminium's also lightweight, which can alter some data if we change to a stronger but heavier material.

[ruby lagoon]

carbon fiber is kinda expensive

[rugged skiff]

Ahh okay yeah that’s what the issue is. Yeah that’s reasonable lmao thanks.

[ruby lagoon]

yea. Cheaper materials means more robots, and more robots is better

[rugged skiff]

Yeah definitely

We just want something that runs at first.

[queen field]

It's a triangle issue, with the 3 peaks being strength, weight and cost.

[rugged skiff]

Carbon fiber is heavier than aluminum? Damn.

[queen field]

Aluminium, aluminum, spelling don't matter, it's still aircraft metal.

[rugged skiff]

What’s the plastic that Ellie is making neurodog with? How does that hold up?

[queen field]

I think it's 3D print filament, and I'm not terribly sure how strong that stuff is as I don't 3D print. Gut's telling me it's less than standard conventional construction metal though, as aluminium's a popular reinforcement metal used alongside 3D prints.

[red oyster]

Probably petg

Petg is one of the strongest filaments

[rugged skiff]

Can you even 3d print aluminum?

[queen field]

Metal 3D printing exists, but it's still in its infancy I think.

[rugged skiff]

Ah ok

Petg might be good if it’s cheap enough.

[queen field]

Like you won't 3D print a remote controlled watertight aluminium ship hull anytime soon, but you can print like, structural fill I think.

Again, 3D printing is not my scene, so I'm going of anecdotal knowledge, at best.

[opal bane]

i had a class on 3d printing at some point... everything went in one ear and out the other

metal printing definetly exists though

[queen field]

I had one for turbos, same thing there.

[opal bane]

i think you could get a aluminium ship hull though

with a big enough printer

if the summary ai sets me on 3d printer expert i swear

[queen field]

It'd be cheaper, faster, simpler and more cost effective to merely press cast a sheet of aluminium, though. Just dump the sheet into a press between a cast and a counter cast, pressing the metal into the desired shape without issue.
That's however a lot less novel than 3D printing metal, though.

Metal stamping's the name.

[red oyster]

80-20 extrusion anyone?

[ruby lagoon]

I'm not doing the summary AI any more. All the instruction following AIs I can download are kind to the point it feels sarcastic and overly agreeable, so they just make up skills for people when I take a section of text that doesn't imply any specific skills, and they often assume giving suggestions or linking things means people actually made those things for some reason.
It's mainly a personality issue with the AIs, strangely enough

[queen field]

Guessing this' a classic case of AI hallucination, huh?

[ruby lagoon]

not really

It's more the instruction following and safety training goes against it. The AI wants to "not cause harm", and saying "this person has no skills" seems like it would harm their feelings.
It also wants to find relevant skills, since those were the instructions, even if I did specify to not make up skills or put no skills

[red oyster]

Chat, the eagle has landed

[queen field]

So just AI being AI, trying its best and falling flat.

[ruby lagoon]

I mean, gpt4chan would probably perform way better if it was finetuned for instruction following, even with it being much smaller

[queen field]

True.

[red oyster]

I found this online

Legs are backwards, but easily fixable

[ruby lagoon]

Reminded me of star wars

[red oyster]

Kinda lol

[queen field]

Metal Gear .

Not gonna lie I would lowkey love it if partially as a joke we made a MG Rex body for Neuro as well. Just for the silly factor.
Evil would prolly love it, stomping around, roaring and being silly, shooting sfx of nuclear missiles left and right.

[red oyster]

Does anyone use autodesk?

[queen field]

"I am Evil! Hear me roar! Rwoaaaaah!"

[red oyster]

So I may have done a thing...

[queen field]

Ono...

Also isn't Autodesk that thing scammers use to drain retired people's wallets?

[red oyster]

3d neuro

[opal bane]

at scale right

[red oyster]

Bald neuro

[opal bane]

AT SCALE RIGHT

[queen field]

Ye, no more than like a half meter to a meter. Would be beyond crazy to make a 1:1 robot body for Evil of a MG Rex.

[red oyster]

doable

Also, bald neuro is real

[opal bane]

that head is brighter than my house's lighting

[queen field]

She got Vedal'd.

[red oyster]

Yes

[queen field]

Not gonna lie Evil would prolly like being a decameter tall robot, for all the reasons we know her for.

[red oyster]

Yes indeed

[queen field]

Anyways sillies aside has there been any progress on the 3D modeling for the internals yet? So much gets done here while I'm working I'm always out of the loop.

[red oyster]

I just got home, starting the basic bot rn

[opaque quartz]

just done a crazy amount of anatomy research

[opaque quartz]

some types of aluminium are extremely strong

[red oyster]

80-20 extrusion is the best lol

or 1x1 square tubing depending on use

[opaque quartz]

we're making our own 3d model later down the line

[red oyster]

i'm doing that rn

[opaque quartz]

Hows your blender experience? I'm learning as i go, but i would appreciate any advice if you have any

[red oyster]

Oh, I suck at blender

[opaque quartz]

np np

[red oyster]

I only really specialize in solidworks

[opaque quartz]

i'll yeet you a true to life neuro human model once i finish one

[red oyster]

Mine is 180cm tall

[opaque quartz]

we can discuss 3d implementation of parts as we go along

[red oyster]

Literally to scale

[ruby lagoon]

What scale is a Neuro?
Ah, 180cm. Hmm

[opaque quartz]

his measurements are 5 9"

[ruby lagoon]

Neuro is giant

[rugged skiff]

Ah so an aluminum alloy?

[opaque quartz]

yee

[rugged skiff]

That's like my sister's height lmao

about 5'9

[ruby lagoon]

Ur sister is giant

[opal bane]

have i mentioned how freaking crazy (in every definition) yall are for this,

[rugged skiff]

Nah, she's just of Scandinavian descent.

[opal bane]

im 6'2 (im male though so probably slightly more average)

however i know a girl who's 6" or 6'1

[rugged skiff]

6'1 for a girl is tall af

[opal bane]

yes

[rugged skiff]

I've seen taller girls but yeah that's uncommon

[red oyster]

While I'm doing this, we can readjust the height

[red oyster]

5'5"?

[opaque quartz]

4 foot based on head size comparisons

[rugged skiff]

5.9 is a bit too tall for Neuro honestly, I would say 4'7 would be better.

[opal bane]

is that 4 flat or

[red oyster]

That feels too short

[rugged skiff]

Yeah that does feel too short

[opaque quartz]

it does but that's because the model is that height

we either alter the model design or keep 4 foot

[opal bane]

personal headcanon is she's 4'2

[red oyster]

I'd rather stay true to the mmodel

[opal bane]

she looks throwable tbh

[queen field]

I say 4 foot. Neuro is a child and having her at her claimed height wouldn't make sense, especially given Neuro thinks she's an adult. Or at least did when she claimed that.

[red oyster]

4 foot it is

[opaque quartz]

it kind of annoys me that she'll be that small so we can experiment with some taller bodies later once we have "true to vtuber model" version done

[rugged skiff]

We don't really know the model height tbh, there's the head height but translating anime head proportions to human proportions is difficult. I remember someone mentioning Anny saying Neuro is taller than her but idk for sure.

[rugged skiff]

Yeah I agree.

[opaque quartz]

this logic is wrong, if the height is changed the head size must change, after about 6 years of age the head reaches adult size, any deviation from norm looks unnatural

therefore larger neuros require smaller heads proportionally

[rugged skiff]

Yeah, I'm just saying anime art styles are weird.

[opaque quartz]

ah

[queen field]

Also don't forget that Vedal did have her VR model set at 1.8 meters when they were setting stuff up for the first time, and midway through testing Vedal changed it to 1.5 meters. Even he thinks her being that tall is a bit too tall.

[rugged skiff]

Like, this is an adult. Anime styles are inconsistent.

[opaque quartz]

technically all anime proportions are a form of neoteny, depicting an 'older person' as being physically younger. If we scale an anime figure to the size of a child you find all of the proportions are an exact match, even the eyes and head

Make of this what you will when it comes to liking anime

[rugged skiff]

Yeah he questioned Neuro about her claimed height.

[opaque quartz]

chibis don't count, those actually deviate slightly in terms of torso width

however if the torso was wider it'd look like a 3 year old

[queen field]

This' also chibi style, so proportions are even more skewed.
Like the epitome of true chibi style is that the head is 1/3 to 1/2 of the total body height.

[rugged skiff]

Anime headstyles are still larger than realistic human heads typically.

[rugged skiff]

Yeah it was an exaggeration I just put it there as an extreme example, which is what a chibi is. Taken to the extreme.

[opaque quartz]

As you can see, head stays the same size, body size changes. Therefore most anime characters depict accurrately proportionard children

if you scale an anime character up the head is too large

so you have to shrink them

[queen field]

*Usually.
Important, as otherwise it's taken as fact.

[opaque quartz]

yeah some mess with the length of some body parts

[rugged skiff]

Yeah I agree honestly, having a head too large would be weird.

[opaque quartz]

code geass for example

[opaque quartz]

i agree. And yeah ultimately i think having a proportionally smaller head model version would be cool

maybe as she 'ages' irl

[ruby lagoon]

I vote someone goes into vr with the neuro 3d model and scales it until it seems right

[rugged skiff]

Yeah same. Something more realistic eventually.

[red oyster]

Her feet to scale are 2 inches wide?

[opaque quartz]

lmao that reminds me of that competition where they roasted each other

neuro was terrifying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MhaLYs2o54

[queen field]

Also don't forget that Anny's canonically like 142-147 centimetres tall, so we're pretty skewed to imaging her as towering over the twins because mother.
If anything, she'd be as tall if not shorter than them.

[opaque quartz]

ok my brain's melting out my ears, that's enough anatomy research for today

i learned a lot at least

the eyes are gonna be the hardest part i'm betting that now
the rest of the face can be done with easy pulley or linear motor mechanisms. However, the eyes require looping wires and proper skin or faked skin deformation

[queen field]

Here's the heights, compared for those who struggle visualizing numbers, like me.

Also how tall the robot would be next to Ellie.

[opaque quartz]

[opaque quartz]

btw thanks for your work, this is amazing

[queen field]

I literally just entered data into an already available website, using numbers already stated and available.
-# https://www.heightcomparison.com/

[opal bane]

Goblin height

[queen field]

The right height to nibble ankles at.

[opaque quartz]

we can probably afford slightly taller neuro by 1-4 inches due to face proportional changes to make her not freaky looking

not sure though

we'll have to see when we actually make the 3d model and depict it next to other real-scale human 3d models

[queen field]

Just for curiosity, what baseline should we use as "average person height"?

[opaque quartz]

maybe UK average height? since that's where Vedal lives and presumably where she'll be walking around, unless she's shipped to america for collabs

[opal bane]

This info was from 6 years ago so it may be inaccurate
Men: 5'7
Women: 5'3

[opaque quartz]

huh i'm above average height for my gender

or is that worldwide

[opal bane]

Worldwide

[opaque quartz]

ahhh

uk i think i'm exactly average

[opal bane]

Uk says men 5'9 women 5'3

[opaque quartz]

oh nice

[queen field]

Alright, so:

[opal bane]

For some reason the car is so funny

[queen field]

The Titanic is funnier.

[opal bane]

Why is it there

[queen field]

Why not?

[opal bane]

Fair enough but WHY IS IT THERE

[queen field]

You have a couple of funny choices.

[opal bane]

Offtrack for a second but i tried recruiting in general (hi general) and someone suggested this about the motor's noise:
"Maybe the interior can be coated with a dampening solution of some sort to facilitate some isolation?"

[ruby lagoon]

muffled buzzing

[opaque quartz]

beehive neuro

[opaque quartz]

interesting suggestion

heat insulation might be ok if we use liquid cooling later on

[rugged skiff]

Vedal is 6'4.

He mentioned being 6'4 multiple times on stream.

[opaque quartz]

The toes poke downwards because the feet are angled further downwards than the other characters in the image

[red oyster]

talk to mullan in general, they're an irl biologist

[opal bane]

I'm 59% sure he's lying on that

[queen field]

Do we even know the heights of the other friends of the 'verse?

[rugged skiff]

Nah, he's been pretty consistent about it.

[opal bane]

BY THE POWERS VESTED IN ME I SUMMON @sand palm

[sand palm]

[karmic frost]

https://tenor.com/view/mahoraga-summon-jujutsu-kaisen-shibuya-ritual-megumi-gif-16715819783879531289

[opal bane]

The main character collection continues to grow

[sand palm]

most of my research is microbiology but i do know a decent wedge about anatomy so i can brainstorm a bit if problems come up

can finally add anime vtuber researcher to my google scholar page

[red oyster]

Lmao

Welcome in

[opaque quartz]

excellent

welcome to neurobot forum

[last epoch]

incredible

[queen field]

Is it just me or do any of y'all also feel like we're starting to need a "character roster" - for lack of a better term - of who's currently in this and taking part, with their area of expertise and potential contributions to the project, like CNC access or such.

[opal bane]

Choose your fighter

[last epoch]

This was mentioned before

once this project becomes more formalized (at some point) this would be one of the first things we do

[opal bane]

Also we tried that, the ai used was too kind

[ruby lagoon]

Yea, I tried making an AI one. It'll have to be manual

[opal bane]

Someone would have to go through (let me check how many...)

[ruby lagoon]

(The AI didn't want to harm feelings or fail to follow instructions so it made up skills)

[rugged skiff]

Vedal is 6'4 tho

[opal bane]

8455 mesaages.

[opaque quartz]

bruh no way

[queen field]

Alternatively we could just ping the people one by one, or go through DMs.
It''s not like we don't have a list on the side saying who's partaken in the convo, after all.

[opal bane]

You know

I forgot that existed

[queen field]

Height difference is noticeable.

[queen field]

It's okie, we all forget things now and again.

[opaque quartz]

excellent work

i guess this explains why we've been struggling for internal space so much

[queen field]

Also I did give you the website if you need it, Matthew.

[opaque quartz]

oh ty, didn't see that

[queen field]

It's okay.

[opaque quartz]

4 foot might be a bit too small maybe, if he is actually that tall lol

[red oyster]

Body dimensions for a rough robot

[opaque quartz]

what do you guys think? I aimed for a similar head size. That said the reference art might not depict vedal's actual irl proportions.

[red oyster]

HHHHHHHH

I already did 4'

[ruby lagoon]

[opaque quartz]

dw dw this might be wrong

[red oyster]

I'd say stick at 4'

[opaque quartz]

stick with 4 for now

yee

[opaque quartz]

btw nice work

this may look small, but we must remember that Evil is in the foreground and is standing on tippy toes

4 might unironically match the most

[red oyster]

Yes

[opaque quartz]

we'll have to see, once we make the full 3d model we can compare sizes in a 3d program

we can get an actual scale reference model of a 6 4 man

that way the head is sized to match

or a generic 5 9 man and match the head size to that

[ruby lagoon]

O yea, for the forearms, can we have some plates that extend from the elbow into the air, then the forearm has slots for those and you screw some large bolts into them from outside the forearm? That way different hand attempts can be swapped

[opaque quartz]

we can probably add those yeah

[queen field]

Didn't someone calculate his visual height from the cooking stream by using his Ninja air fryer and came to the conclusion he's quite short?

Found it.

[opaque quartz]

those ninja air fryers are pretty big

[red oyster]

And so it begins

[opaque quartz]

lol nice

be prepared to recieve a full neuro model from me in several weeks time

i am honing my blender skills to make it properly

i'll also work on the internals in blender after

whilst you do yours

[opal bane]

V2 feature idea: shove a usb3 port into her wrist or elbow or somewhere else accessible so she can plug into stuff

[queen field]

Any of y'all who are good with perspective and 3D modelling could prolly come up with a more accurate answer, or just reinforce the 165.
Depends on whenever we want Neuro to be smol and cute but a tight mechanical fit or big and cute but ample of mechanical space.

[opal bane]

Or incorporate into tail

[opaque quartz]

that's so cyberpunk, i love it

[ruby lagoon]

I think hair is a good usb port location. USB cord hair, just hidden between the strands

[opaque quartz]

behind ear maybe? that's how they do it in edgerunners i think

[opal bane]

That'd have to detach though she wouldn't be able to connect to stuff as well

The idea came from r2-d2 hacking into doors

[queen field]

He keeps SHRINKING!

[opal bane]

Also how if you plug your phone into your computer to share stuff across it

[opaque quartz]

ngl 4 foot works well i think. Suitibly neuro sized when comparing to most of the art

we'll stick with that for now

[queen field]

Would it be possible to make the USB-C port magnetic like how Apple's chargers are? It's one of the few actually decent things I've found regarding their auxiliaries, as the charger will want to stay in rather than pop out at the slightest movement, and the robot is gonna be doing a lot of movement, even while standing still.

[opaque quartz]

good call

[red oyster]

Does v1 need working toes?

I know they help with balance and all

[ruby lagoon]

I'd say not motorized. Make like two toes: big toe and one long flat thing for the rest, and use strong/rigid springs to attach them

[queen field]

Individual, no. The goat approach should be enough, at least for V1.
We can think about toes when Ellie's here for V2 or V3, she has experience.

[red oyster]

I was thinking actuated

Just a simple actuator on 2 toes like youu said

Btw, is ellie on break like vedal?

[queen field]

Not that I'm aware of. Think she's just streaming bi-daily, and a bit when she feels like it. She does have a full-time job as a legitimate senior robotics engineer at a highly prestigious company, AKA she's living with her dream job, and is just Vtubing as her hobby which she enjoys.

[red oyster]

That's amazing

[opaque quartz]

the eye muscle seems to 'shrink' from an attachment point along the inner side of the eye. This scrunches up the skin and fat attached to it

the yellow part is fat

[queen field]

This seems like a good question for the newest addition to the project to answer.

[opaque quartz]

yes more info on how the skin is affected by that muscle would be golden

a lot of lectures i can find online skip out on that interaction

The movement of the fat might have something to do with it

especially in skin that is less aged

[sand palm]

at point 2?

or just the oo muscle in general

[opaque quartz]

in general and specifics, pls
Go as indepth as you can on the subject

[sand palm]

on the muscle as a whole?

[opaque quartz]

yes, and any specific parts of it that affect the way the skin folds as the muscle contracts

for example why in pictures like this, it bulges so much:

[sand palm]

forceful closure as a result of the orbital part of the muscle

orbicularis oculi has two parts

that are relevant here atleast

[opaque quartz]

ahhh

[sand palm]

orbital and palpebral

sec

the orbital part is what is responsible for that bulging

it is responsible for pulling skin inwards when the eyes are closed manually

as opposed to the palpebral controlling general blinking activity

the folds are literally just skin being folded as its pulled

like if you were to scrunch a piece of paper

when the manual scrunching stops, the palpebral is what returns the eyelid and immediate area around it taught over the eye still

there's a decent amount of interaction with the superior supercilii above it that control the forehead but that more controls how eyebrow/forehead movement affects skin around the eye

its probably easier for me to answer specific questions on the topic as i don't work on humans so i don't want to say something that isnt applicable

[opaque quartz]

OH that explains a so much! For example when i blink they don't move, but when i scrunch my eyes it bulges out.

[sand palm]

yeah two different sections of muscles

there are a few structures nearby that are responsible for stabilising skin too

[opaque quartz]

I'm gonna want to use pulleys with seperate motors for both then.

[sand palm]

they have some horrid names though

[opaque quartz]

ahhh

[sand palm]

but functionally just attachment points to keep everything in place

[opaque quartz]

where can i find info on those skin stabilizing small muscles? I strongly beleive that every muscle in the eye is important for a beleivable human face.

so i'd love to know more

[opal bane]

We're just going to have every single face muscle recreated

[sand palm]

there are two main ones, give me a sec and ill find the names

[opaque quartz]

ty

i have some more questions for afterwards as well

ty so far for this info, it has been super helpful

i was really scratching my head lol

[opaque quartz]

and ty @opal bane for getting em over

[sand palm]

its a complicated area of the face

[red oyster]

No toes yet

Buut

[opal bane]

I'm helpful!

[sand palm]

skin in this area of the face is supported by a lot of additional structures like the tarsal plates that keep eyelids in place

the two i was thinking of were the lateral and medial palpebral ligaments

[opaque quartz]

love it. I'll quickly point you towards some info i found on feet design before u make toes

[opaque quartz]

ty

i'll look em up

[sand palm]

if you want realistic eye movement id look into how the oo blends into the corrugator supercilii

[opaque quartz]

my other question was: In this image, what contributes to the shape of part 2, and what contributes to the shape of part 1. They are both very prominent and 'active' it looks like

[sand palm]

or atleast interactions between eyes and eyebrows

[opaque quartz]

will do

gonna write these down

@red oyster https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2ap9mb3bYE

[sand palm]

for 2, do you mean the overhang of soft tissue beneath the eyebrow?

its a mixture of fat pads and skin just being very elastic in that area so it's less taut

one of the thinnest areas of skin in the body

[opaque quartz]

yes

there appears to be fat there

but i was thinking there might be more to it

[sand palm]

mixture of thermal insulation for the eye and that skin/general shock absorber for when the eye gets slammed shut

[opaque quartz]

oooh nice

that's illuminating

how taut is it? very springy?

[sand palm]

fat also allows the skin to glide over facial structures easier

easier to glide over fat than bone or muscle

with how elastic and mobile the skin is in that area its useful

[opaque quartz]

just realized you already answered, less taut

[sand palm]

i couldn't really comment on the fat in specifics but i know it is split into multiple seperate pads

[opaque quartz]

like this?

[sand palm]

yeah sorta, there are some things on there that im not 100% on but it gets the idea across

at this point itll be ideal for a biological system and a robotic one would likely need something more designed to handle its own conditions

the force of an eye being closed quickly is going to be less than the force of any robotic system

there's a number of things that will show up on the diagrams that are relatively irrelevant

like the lacrimal poking out there at number 11

preaponeurotic fat

that's the name

[opaque quartz]

of this type of fat, or the area?

[sand palm]

the fat in area around 2 on your previous diagram

above the eye

number 1 on the diagram immediately above

i think 3 is supposeed to just be a nasal fat pad

considering its location id assume its a relatively soft fat but i couldn't say specifics

itll just be protection/thermals/shock absorb

and then whatever we've coadapted it for in terms of facial signaling

[opaque quartz]

nice

that's perfect, thank you

[sand palm]

[opaque quartz]

ok now about number 1 on the origional diagram

and also this:

it sticks out a ton on healthy individuals, to the point that it catches overhead light in figure 3

[sand palm]

1 on this?

[opaque quartz]

yeah

it also makes tons of shadow, i presume due to an overhang

what's it made of?

[sand palm]

beneath the skin?

more fat tbh

it's split into smaller sections but still just fat pads

to my knowledge there's a number of veins running up through past the orbital septum so it's a messy area

the eyelids themselves are layered

for the most part it goes skin, tarsal plate, conjuctiva

afaik

[opaque quartz]

wow

that's awesome

[opal bane]

It's our body it should just be able to tell us this

Traitor

[sand palm]

if you look at diagrams for this region there's going to be a whole lotta shit that shows up and isnt related to facial movement overwhelmingly

[opaque quartz]

like the tearduct muscles right?

[sand palm]

among others

a lot of nerves in the area

there's a fascia beneath the eye to my knowledge thats important in contracting the lower eyelid

atleast there is in fish it's almost definitely there in humans too

[opaque quartz]

nice

[sand palm]

oh there it is

[opaque quartz]

green section lower tarsal plate

awesome

[sand palm]

capsulopalpebral fascia

attached to the lower tarsal plate

[opaque quartz]

ah yeah

[sand palm]

tarsal plate keeps eyelid structure for the most part, cp fascia pulls

[opaque quartz]

so it's like fat and skin clinging onto the tarsal plate

[sand palm]

levator aponeurosis is the upper eyelid equivalent iirc

[opaque quartz]

niiice

[sand palm]

sorta

the tarsal plates are more of like

how to describe

crude comparison but similar to how rebar strengthens concrete

as well as a point of contact for the other muscles like the fascia

its multipurpose

(it's also been a very long time since i've done facial anatomy)

[opaque quartz]

this all checks out based on what i read up on, ty a ton for the information

i can study it more indepth knowing these keywords too

[sand palm]

np

[opaque quartz]

here they are

very cool stuff

seems like cartilige (or ligament) sort of

eyelid muscle actuates and pulls tarsal plate?

just guessing here

[sand palm]

the fascia and the levator yeah

iirc

[opaque quartz]

excellent

[sand palm]

im pretty sure the actual tarsal plates are just dense tissue

it's also where the eyelash follicles connect

if memory serves

when i say dense i mean denser than the surrounding tissue

[opaque quartz]

that explains why the eyelashes stay in there and why the eyelids keep their shape so well

[ruby lagoon]

I feel like with all these tiny bands of fat, thin skin, and ligaments, we'd really want a 3D printer that can print silicone, polyurethane, foam, and whatever else is needed

[sand palm]

realistically a lot of the complexity here can be toned down

these are all multipurpose structures and a large amount of the function they serve isnt needed outside of biological systems

[ruby lagoon]

So we'd want this printer (open source), but with 3 or 4 specialized printing sides instead of 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEgwnhLHy3g

[sand palm]

the tarsal plates are also full of glands that control releasing oil important for the area but that's not super needed in a non biological system

[opaque quartz]

yeah so long as it visually matches and allows for full human range of expressions, it works. I'm going so overkill because i think a lot of roboticists don't pay enough attention here and therefore, fail to escape uncanny eye movement

[sand palm]

so there'll be anatomy on diagrams that turns out to not be needed

[opaque quartz]

pecision and complexity will be important for this

[red oyster]

Foot

[opaque quartz]

robots that get close to replicating the moving structures, but don't go all the way, always look terrifying

[opaque quartz]

epic

[sand palm]

sure, just be careful introducing additional complexity to an already complex area

[opaque quartz]

yeah for sure. we want it to last and be reliable

[sand palm]

at a certain point additional points of potential failure will outweigh benefits

if you can capture the level of accuracy you want with a similar system then its just as functional

if there is one thing to know about using real world biological systems as a reference it's that they are absolutely not what is most efficient

just what worked well enough for stuff to not die

[opaque quartz]

fr fr

thanks so much for the help man

this boosted my knowledge on eye anatomy many times over

[sand palm]

no problem

[opaque quartz]

i hadn't considered the eye much until i realized it's the place our eyes are drawn to to determine humanity

[sand palm]

hmu with biology questions if they come up

[opaque quartz]

and i couldn't figure out why the eye skin has the shape it does

[sand palm]

i can't guarantee i can answer them all but i can definitely give it a crack

[opaque quartz]

definitely

[red oyster]

Force sensor in the heel

[ruby lagoon]

cool

[red oyster]

Basically just detects contact

[opaque quartz]

@sand palm if you're free for one last question, is everything here correct and have i missed anything?

[ruby lagoon]

not going to do a graphite/conductive (anti-static) foam resistance sensor?

[red oyster]

For v1?

[ruby lagoon]

I mean it's foam and a resistance sensor

[sand palm]

looks correct

[red oyster]

I'd rather just souurce parts that are premade as much as possible for v1

[opaque quartz]

nice

[sand palm]

the fat above and below the eyes will be for shock absorption of both eyes closing as well as actual damage

the eye socket is a big area of no skull

[ruby lagoon]

Fair. I'm gonna look on mouser for some pressure sensors though, unless that is a pressure sensor there and not a button

[sand palm]

better to take a hit to a pad of fat that muscle or eye

[red oyster]

It is a pressure sensor

[sand palm]

so some of the fat will be more used for flat out protection

[ruby lagoon]

Oh, ok, nvm

You said contact sensor, so I wasn't sure

[opaque quartz]

that explains why when i push my knuckle into my closed eye, i feel shock absorption and a lot of squishy tissue protecting the eye

[red oyster]

Compression Force Sensors

[ruby lagoon]

Basically just detects contact
That's what confused me

[red oyster]

I mean, that's basically all it does

It can relay how much force, but its mostly needed for binary feedback

[ruby lagoon]

I think it'll be important that it's not a button and can relay specific force when you have both feet, so the difference of contact force between feet determines how much weight each is holding up

[red oyster]

Fair enough

There we go

[ruby lagoon]

(...I feel like I should stop suggesting so many things, but I think there should be at least 3, maybe 4, pressure sensors per foot, so that its orientation can be determined by them--)

(Ah, well that's basically that)

[red oyster]

Lol

[ruby lagoon]

Only difference would be putting two more in the pressure sensor sockets facing the other direction

[red oyster]

I would love to if they were smaller

If you find some that are 30mm long, lmk

[ruby lagoon]

I think their wires can be overlapping, though you'd have to make the sockets a bit longer and push out the pressure sensor parts

[red oyster]

I grabbed cad files directly from manufacturer

[opaque quartz]

i totally forgot that we use touch and pressure in the feet to help determine balance

[red oyster]

I could do much thicker sensors and embed them deeper

[ruby lagoon]

I mean, the cad files for the sensors are fine...
Wait! You could just overlap two pressure sensors, add 5mm-1cm or so to the slot, and then put some pads over/on the sensors

[red oyster]

Lemme test something

[sand palm]

this is similar to how pressure receptors work in animals

it's a good idea

level of pressure is detected by multiple receptors layered ontop of eachother, with intensity being determined by how many layers fire a signal

bigger pressure, more layers, larger electrical signal

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, that increase the range of the sensor, but I was more talking about how to fit four sensors in the two slots for top-left, top-right, bottom-left, and bottom-right sensing positions

[sand palm]

also how it works in animals

but with a huge density rather than just corners

[ruby lagoon]

yea. I think at least 3 are needed for balance sensing, but more can also be useful

[opal bane]

Some in toes?

[ruby lagoon]

Idk if pressure sensors can fit in the toes. Can they?

[red oyster]

Only the big one

[opaque quartz]

earlier pressure-sensing carbon foams were mentioned as a possible solution, it'd help us make a more padded, curved foot since they could bend around the material

foam sensors might be too advanced for us though

[opaque quartz]

cool

[ruby lagoon]

True. It's not an off the shelf part though, and we'd need specific resistance measuring circuits made for the foam. That was the issue

[red oyster]

For v1 yes

[opaque quartz]

this is very based of you guys

[red oyster]

Pressure sensors are expensive btw

[opaque quartz]

it's kinda cool how we're all working on individual parts of neurobot

[red oyster]

We shouuld find a cheaper version

[ruby lagoon]

And this was the reason for the foam sensor ideas... later

[red oyster]

I'm talking $400 each

[ruby lagoon]

what

[opaque quartz]

[red oyster]

Yeah...

[ruby lagoon]

These are 3$ tho: https://www.amazon.com/Pressure-Sensitivity-Sensitive-Industrial-Measurement/dp/B0CZ6L5NMM?th=1

[opaque quartz]

gonna dump all progress into the progress doc for you guys

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, 20g to 2kg.
...Alright, this is a job for compliant materials, or springs/levers. A spring/lever system should allow the force on the small pressure sensors to be greatly reduced

Putting the pressure sensors in rigid/squishy materials would do the same, like tpu, since they'd spread out the force

[opaque quartz]

@ruby lagoon what was the hotkey for making a new link haha

[ruby lagoon]

?

[opaque quartz]

in google docs, making a tab header or w/e it called

[ruby lagoon]

Is the problem finding pressure sensors rated for 50kg or so?

[opaque quartz]

i forgor

[red oyster]

Yes

The ones I used were for 150kg

Same price as the other ones for slightly less weight

22kg was cheaper, but anything above that is $400+

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, heading?
ctrl+alt+1, ctrl+alt+2, etc.
And the table of contents should have a refresh button on the top left if you hover over it, I think

[ruby lagoon]

Yeah, I think something to divide the force is necessary

That said, it might need a bit of testing to see how pressure sensors work with a padding of TPU or other material over them that's also contacting other stuff

[opal bane]

And we need like 100 of those things

[red oyster]

8 for the feet, idk about elsewhere yet

[ruby lagoon]

Honestly, I think it's best to just go for the cheap ones and assume a layer of TPU over everything will divide the force over a larger area, then test with some 3d printed tpu and sensors later

[red oyster]

rated for 25lbs each

Imma keep looking tho

[ruby lagoon]

I mean, 150kg pressure over that small of an area would be if you were jumping on the head of a nail. It would be quite painful, so I'm not sure even biology has that level of pressure sensing
And our 'pressure sensing nerves' aren't directly exposed to the ground

[red oyster]

3-4 of these per module under a layer of tpu

Distribute weight

[ruby lagoon]

ye

And if it doesn't work it was only 16 dollars, not 1600

[red oyster]

Do we want micro computers in each foot to do the calculations faster and then communicate with the main brain?

Like an arduino nano

[ruby lagoon]

I think we'll want FPGA for the hands and for areas with many muscles, but for the foot, an arduino to combine all the data into one line might be good

yea, arduino nano

[red oyster]

Alright, I'll start that

[opaque quartz]

Ok the progress log is fully up to date

have a read of it in pins when you guys have the time so that you can get caught up to the developments so far

[ruby lagoon]

Trying to have my youtube vid of the gui I made show as a pic/vid...

[opaque quartz]

gify maybe

some gif creating-site that compresses vids

[opal bane]

2 pixels

[ruby lagoon]

I just put the link and thumbnail

[opaque quartz]

#1133834166312636426 message

[opaque quartz]

oh wait did you make that hydraulic eye face? I thought it was an online example

It's very cool

[ruby lagoon]

o, lol, yea, that's from my onshape

[ruby lagoon]

thx!

[opaque quartz]

np np

[opal bane]

There is not enough robot neuro art

[ruby lagoon]

This makes me want to write yet another unfinished story...
Maybe some AI starting simple, and then having more and more stuff added, or something

[red oyster]

octa sensor

[ruby lagoon]

sensitive foot

[red oyster]

$30 per foot

[opaque quartz]

yooooo

[red oyster]

for sensors

[opaque quartz]

that's awesome

[opaque quartz]

worth

[ruby lagoon]

shoes more expensive than feet

[opaque quartz]

i was expecting like 100

[queen field]

$30 is still $30.

[red oyster]

There will be a cover for the arduino

I'm done for the night

[opaque quartz]

nice work

night man

imma head off too

[red oyster]

I ain't sleeping lol

Just done with cad

I'll be here if you guys need me

[opaque quartz]

😂

[opaque quartz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiewZz0MXjs

https://www.livescience.com/technology/engineering/betavolt-bv100-radioactive-battery-can-last-50-years-coming-in-2025

not very power-dense short term

[ruby lagoon]

Super long lasting clock battery

[fossil drum]

How would you do it the hard way?

[floral quarry]

why you guys suggest FPGA

I hate verilog

Now I gotta update my logism

I'm going to start some terrible design work for v0.25 for the prototype I'm gonna cobble together

I have to write the ik algo as well

That being said, the stray-style robots look real nice until we finish the face design

I can build a 1:2 or 1:4 robot with lightweight parts just to write and test the ik algo

[ruby lagoon]

I suggested open sorce fpga (so, open toolchains). If we could avoid the massive slow IDEs that'd be amazing, even if that means losing some features or speed

[floral quarry]

YAHOOOOOOOOO

we can write the features we need

[floral quarry]

Which FPGA are you guys going to take though

FPGAs don't come cheap

[ruby lagoon]

Since it'd be for something like moving 20-30 bldc motors, probably the lower end cheap ones. I think I have some 20-40$ old fpgas, and the older ones usually have the open toolchains pre made for them

[floral quarry]

Well, whichever you pick, lemme know as I will have to buy it as well eventually

For now, for the scale model, we'll just use crappy tower pro micro servos with arduinos and a raspberry pi (or two) combined together

And I'll slap on a waveshare screen for the face

[rugged skiff]

Yeah 4’4 might be better.

[opaque quartz]

with current best beta voltaic technology, 100s of them will not release one watt. Would need thousands of them to release more than a watt probably. So they are a dead end for us for now

[opaque quartz]

aye we'll have to compare them in blender

[ruby lagoon]

Yea that all sounds pretty good for the scale model

[ruby lagoon]

Wait, color e-ink! That will be visible during the day, there are open sorce versions of the software, and I think the refresh rate is improving.
Well, that is if a normal e-ink display can be plugged in like any other display

[floral quarry]

Color e ink is stupid expensive for a prototype we're going to dump

[ruby lagoon]

Huh. What about non color then?

[floral quarry]

They're fine, but waveshare is the worst manufacturer to date

They have not updated their drivers since 2015

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, wow

[floral quarry]

People had to end up writing them themselves

[grizzled steppe]

https://youtube.com/shorts/NbOs2cFRo8g?si=_r_TpatIG7eIpzN3

[night tartan]

I can already see neuro doing this the moment she gets the chance to go outside

[fossil drum]

She gonna give vedal a heart attack cuz he would think she abandoned him

Only for her to come back after few hours with like

A cat or something idk lmaooo

[night tartan]

Actual child behaviour

[rugged skiff]

Looks too flat. Would be nice for her to have a natural human gait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtQ2R7RxWc

The ankle doesn’t look very sturdy either, especially if this is going to be aluminum.

[opaque quartz]

Maximum balance in a walk cycle comes from feet placed directly under the center of gravity, which indeed requires strong ankle joints

on a human it's about 30nm ankle sideways rotation torque, and even more for forwards/backwards rotation.

We could probably add springs on the sides as well to boost rigidity there and save energy rotating the joint

---

This creates a very stable walk cycle with not much need for correction of ballance

the more spread out from center of gravity the heels are, the more you fall to the side during a step, and therefore the more you have to counterballance using muscle power to account for that. A centerline step on the other hand, can ballance on one foot for the majority of a several-second long step, preventing the person from falling to the side at any moment during the walk cycle.

Wheras with wideset feet, It forces you to waddle and take smaller strides because there is not that inherent one-legged balance of the centerline gait - You have to catch yourself from repeated sudden falls.

This is why most robots take very small steps forwards, and very quickly, since they fall faster and have to take a faster correctional step forward. Meanwhile with proper balance, you can take a very slow, long stride forward that saves on battery power

As a result i think the actuators and design for the feet will be quite important for the efficiency and gait of the robot

this was my original design goal for the robot: the ability to achieve a centerline gait like this one:

this is also even more pronounced during a jog or a sprint

here's an example of a perfect walking gait

[opal bane]

definitely not writing notes because i walk wrong

[sand palm]

the unitree h1 model they used for cny had an interesting foot structure compared to some other robots kicking around atm

might be worth a look

[opaque quartz]

this gait was taught to me by my father, a few years ago he noticed that my eyes weren't centerline whilst i walked. He taught me to stand with feet close together and top of head (scalp) raised as high as possible without rotating the skull.

When you walk, you focus on an object in the distance, for example a tree or a sign. If the sign wobbles from side to side in your field of view when you walk, it means your gait isn't perfect and your body is wobbling to adjust.

With a centerline gait, most of the force acts upon the external side of the foot, which is placed on the centerline

to get a more perfect gait, try to be as tall as possible when you walk

ballance on one foot and step slowly

if you can stay upright whilst stepping forward for three or more seconds, you will have more ballance when you walk

[opal bane]

My feet just go out 45 degrees off to the side

Duck feet

[opaque quartz]

i recommend practising ballancing on one foot for five minutes at a time on each foot once per day, stationary, maybe multiple times per day. Gradually you can start to take longer, slower steps whilst balancing.

[opal bane]

Maybe not 45 degrees but probably actually closer to 25-30

[opaque quartz]

it's a good habit to get into

posture is really important for a good ballance

[opal bane]

I have located a thing
https://youtu.be/Szc2YB1vIi0?si=vxQen5UYxGmGctUF

I think you're right the eyes have a massive effect on the humanlike look

Turn on subtitles if you want to read

[ruby lagoon]

I think VR tests kinda disproved this, since Vedal apparently shrunk Neuro's size after she started out too large

[ruby lagoon]

(Good to know I can still sense the uncanney valley after all this time)
(Though, I think a good principle is: don't try to make stuff that 'looks' human, try to make stuff that 'performs like' humans)

[opal bane]

Several of the comments even mention Neuro

[opaque quartz]

indeed, the human brain is very proficient at noticing shape that identifies function. This is because function is an indicator of health. For example, lineart and anime art isn't true to life, but it's true to human anatomy and performance.

[ruby lagoon]

O yea, I think lineart/anime is sometimes super-normal, because in real life there aren't perfect lines, circles, etc.

[opaque quartz]

they evoke the position in space of human features

they emphasize the parts that we notice irl

people think that replicating the lineart in 3d is enough

but you actually have to replicate what the lineart represents

and that's position in space of facial features relative to each other

for example it's not visible, but the lower eyelid in this image is the same as in the anatomy reference i used earlier when duscussing the eyes

if we don't place that in the same place with the same shape, it looks off

[opal bane]

Uncanny valley hasn't really ever hit me for images (aside from ai art odly)

[ruby lagoon]

/spoiler how about now? (edit: deleted the creepy images because I can't spoiler them, but link)

[opaque quartz]

exactly. I was an artist by trade and it taught me that still images and lineart especially, represents a snapshot of the human form at that moment. So as long as the proportions fit at that angle, it looks natural. But to be able to make it look natural at every angle, you need to know the topology of what the image portrays.

the reason AI art can look uncanny is because the AI doesn't always understand the underlying proportions and isn't representing it with the image it makes

[grizzled steppe]

wtf

[opal bane]

Second picture especially looks wrong but I don't think I'd say uncanny

I think there's an option if you right click an image

[ruby lagoon]

nope, no spoiler option in the right click menu

[opaque quartz]

cursed to forever see those images

[opal bane]

There's a mark as spoiler icon somewhere according to google

Has to be before it's sent i think

[ruby lagoon]

I've seen so many lies about app capabilities...

||test||

ok so I can spoiler text

[solid schooner]

If ya on mobile it's a hold down on each individual image

Also excuse to post cat :3

[opaque quartz]

what an inquisitive individual

[ruby lagoon]

Hmm... looks like not if it's been posted already

[opaque quartz]

ty for saving our eyes

[opal bane]

Used to be fairly into creepypasta stuff, not much fully creeps me out anymore

[opaque quartz]

Possible eye pupil? Can strap some LEDs to the front of it.

alternatively a normal fisheye with LEDs around the sides

[ruby lagoon]

maybe a gel capsule and some nitinol or solenoids attached to it so the iris works...
...but that's getting too fancy

I didn't know there were cameras that small you could buy that weren't just microchips though

[opaque quartz]

yeah idk how we achieve that

v10 lmao

this explains why we see 0 light when we blink

[opal bane]

Well that's a lie, plenty of light still gets through my eyelids

[opaque quartz]

true it passes through the flesh itself

if you scrunch your eyes there's more flesh so less light gets through

[ruby lagoon]

Y'know, I think neurobot becoming one of the more advanced robots and passing the uncanney valley movement wise would require:

• springs. Lots of springs (stops rigid/snapping movements. Seriously spring based robots move so much better)
• the ability to move multiple motors simultaneously (counters oddly linear movements)
• an AI that runs at least at 120fps, almost matching muscle twitch speed at 7.3 milliseconds (should help with balance a lot. faster is better)
• Starting the control AI with all zero initialization and skip connections so it starts with small movements (instead of large/random twitches)
• curiosity RL / mutual information RL with a whole 'picture' as feedback instead of 1 signal (this one stops the robot from acting like a roomba)
  Edit: I think this should be in the design doc / requirements for some version actually, not sure where though...

[red oyster]

Definitely need springs

[opal bane]

5 million springs

[red oyster]

And counting

[ruby lagoon]

all the springs

[red oyster]

+1

[opaque quartz]

springs make everything better

[red oyster]

Guys, work sucks today

[queen field]

Big Spring is loving these prospects.

[opaque quartz]

you have my condolencies

[red oyster]

Big BLDC is sad that they're not getting as much.

[red oyster]

Work slowed down

[opaque quartz]

boutta sleep

see you guys tomorrow

[red oyster]

Gn

[rugged skiff]

I believe it’s a goal that can eventually be achieved. I’m very passionate about passing the milestone of something that passes the uncanny valley. Obviously not V1 or V2 but I would still like to try, especially once material technology is more advanced.

[red oyster]

I agree, I want to dedicate myself to this project, maybe not 100% of my time, but for a long time.

I'm not going anywhere so long as neuro exists.

[ruby lagoon]

Also agree, though I think it might be as much a manufacturing /3D printing problem as a materials one

[rugged skiff]

What do you mean by “3D printing”? Preferably, the face will be sculpted by human hands. That’s where I come in.

[red oyster]

I like that...

[rugged skiff]

I just need to learn how to sculpt in silicone lol

I’m a clay sculptor right now

[red oyster]

Nice

[rugged skiff]

Actually I want to learn how to sculpt with self-healing elastomers eventually.

That’ll be a much better alternative, and it will most likely be used as an application in human prosthetics.

[solid schooner]

About as as I can be bothered to make it xD

[ruby lagoon]

Hmm... in that case, I think you might still want a cad/ printed base to connect to all the actuators, which you might move around in cad, then sculpt onto that

[rugged skiff]

Hmm yeah maybe.

[solid schooner]

Perhaps our forum should exist in #1336777692070023271 ? Moving will be difficult but it should be possible

[ruby lagoon]

Yea. I think a moderator could just move the whole thread over though, maybe

[radiant drum]

im pretty sure you cant move forums

[prime rose]

if it helps i can repin everything again
it'll definitely be a more suitable home for this thread

[solid schooner]

@opaque quartz when you are on, as project lead it is your honour to move us to #1336777692070023271 ^^

(me avoiding all responsibility )

[ruby lagoon]

Just checked on my notes discord. I don't think you can move over the whole thread. I think moving to #1336777692070023271 and keeping a link to this one is a good idea though.

[red oyster]

Yes

I'm home now btw

[queen field]

Is there a way to migrate a whole discussion post into another place? Would help as then we're not split between two versions.

[ruby lagoon]

Nope. There is not apparently. I searched online some and found a few people annoyed they couldn't do it

[queen field]

In that case then it might be the smartest to to might be to leave a final message on this one, start the new one in projects, link to it in the final post, and have Vanor lock this one. That way, if new ones find this by chance going through discussions, they'll be directed to the active place and won't divide our attention between two posts.

[red oyster]

I'm down

[ruby lagoon]

In that case, the final message should include a link to the new thread

[queen field]

Would prolly have to wait for Matthew to be awake, though. Bit rude for him to wake up and see the post locked.

[ruby lagoon]

lol, yea

[rugged skiff]

Maybe we could retype our old conversations in the new thread?

[ruby lagoon]

Surely we can re-create all 9000+ comments

[rugged skiff]

Yes!

[opal bane]

surely

[queen field]

Could prolly use a bot or something, just spam out 100 messages a second.
Would be silly, though.

[opal bane]

i remember a server got deleted by owner out of the blue, and a admin somehow brought it all back

[red oyster]

Imma do something, will take a while tho

So uhhh

I did a thing

[silent arrow]

You think you’ll move this or continue this post in the #1336777692070023271 ?

[ruby lagoon]

Huh, maybe we can continue with both that text file and a link back to this post for reference then

[opal bane]

well that's one way to do that

[red oyster]

GD_Abomination has been an active contributor to the project, primarily focusing on CAD design, SolidWorks modeling, and structural mechanics. Below is a breakdown of their contributions:

1. CAD & 3D Modeling
   Mentioned SolidWorks as their primary expertise, rather than Blender​
   .
   Created a basic 3D model of Neuro-sama in Autodesk​
   .
   Shared images of their 3D Neuro model and worked on refining its proportions​
   .
   Started work on a rudimentary leg model to experiment with mechanical movement​
   .
   Worked on ankle joint designs, initially using a pinion gear with a radial rack gear but later considered alternatives due to friction issues​
   .
2. Mechanical & Structural Design
   Suggested 80-20 aluminum extrusion or 1x1 square tubing for structural strength​
   .
   Acknowledged that hip joints are particularly difficult to recreate mechanically​
   .
   Helped brainstorm non-traditional materials for creating more flexible and durable joints​
   .
   Investigated potential Arduino covers and other protective casing for internal electronics​
   .
3. Power & Energy Considerations
   Discussed battery efficiency and how long the bot should be active per session​
   .
   Engaged in a discussion about fusion and nuclear power sources but acknowledged the limitations for small-scale applications​
   .
   Showed interest in alternative power sources, though remained practical about implementation​
   .
4. Commitment to the Project
   Expressed a long-term commitment to the project, stating that they plan to continue working on it even if others stop​
   .
   Regularly stayed up late to work on CAD designs, showing dedication​
   .
5. Humor & Engagement
   Joked about turning Mars into a power plant for the Neuro bot​
   .
   Participated in fun discussions about sci-fi inspirations, including Metal Gear Rex and futuristic AI applications​

GPT is fun

[ruby lagoon]

yep

[red oyster]

I am running a long full analysis

Will take a bit

This will take some time as I will need to analyze the entire document thoroughly. I'll go through each conversation, break down the engagement of every member, list their skills, and summarize the progress made.

Give me a moment while I process everything in detail.

We need a word doc for this

[ruby lagoon]

Huh, I wasn't sure GPT or whatever company actually implemented summaries or other stuff so gpt could handle content much larger than the context window

[ruby lagoon]

I think google docs usually works

[red oyster]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p15iiicFBDwWs5qrAErYYSRKYWAtDBnSNWQUW2t2j9Q/edit?usp=sharing

It's actually really cool

[ruby lagoon]

Pretty good. Missed some of the rare stuff like my AI skills... though I'm not sure whether or not I actually linked my AI repos in this chat or not

[red oyster]

Not here

You linked those in the other place

[ruby lagoon]

ah, that would explain it

Ah, I didn't work on inverse kinematics either, just suggested it. Looks like AIs are still mixing up suggestions and contributions

[red oyster]

Idk, AI isn't perfect

Except neuro

[ruby lagoon]

True

[queen field]

Anyone got a vauge idea of when Matthew wakes up? Just so we have someone on standby who can chitchat and discuss how we should go about moving forward.
Come up with a final message, creating the new forum post in the projects bubble. Those sorta things.

[red oyster]

He just went to sleep like 2 houras ago

[queen field]

So like, 5-8 hours from now.

[ruby lagoon]

Yea

[ruby lagoon]

I rescind my "pretty good" after trying to read the AI summary in detail...
The formatting is kinda good

[rugged skiff]

Maybe we could ask Neuro once she’s active in the discord?

[queen field]

"Neuro, wanna do something for 2 hours?"
"Heart?"

[rugged skiff]

She could probably do it faster considering she’s an AI. Probably won’t be a while before she is ever active though.

[floral quarry]

I was worried about some stuff being lost in past discussion but gd fixed it lol

[solid schooner]

I think it'll be good in the new project thread to list the Google doc in the initial post, that might cut down on pinning things + give people first coming there a good quick run down that isn't 3000 long + to people may not check the pins it's convenient for them

I'd imagine an outline of what's going on and that we're actively looking for any help would be good to mention as well

[floral quarry]

I also remembered the talk you folks had about adding a jet engine into neuro

I can definitely help with that one

[floral quarry]

nods aggressively

[red oyster]

the usual lol

[ruby lagoon]

Y'know, I feel like the AI summaries are perfect as long as people get annoyed at parts where it mentions them and then edit the summaries

[red oyster]

True

[ruby lagoon]

(Not sarcastic btw, I think the AI summary had a lot of stuff not in the design documents, but it was off in a lot of weird ways)

[floral quarry]

I tried getting it to summarise but the fucker couldn't even find me

And deepseek has a length limit

[red oyster]

Lmao

I am simplifying v1 so no pneumatics

just actuators and solenoids and motors

[ruby lagoon]

Alright, I need to make sure the shafts don't slip out if we use heat shrinking, epoxy, key-ways, splines, etc., and ChatGPT has prepared a reading list for me to get the physics right...

[red oyster]

So uhhhh

Full RoM achieved

[ruby lagoon]

That's gonna fall over if it gets pushed from the side instead of the front or the back

[red oyster]

2 feet

It's also v1

[ruby lagoon]

It will still fall over in that case

[red oyster]

3 feet?

[ruby lagoon]

???

[red oyster]

lmao

[ruby lagoon]

I mean, I think 3 feet might work actually, but it wouldn't be very humanoid. Also I'm not sure it could turn, unless you turned the whole foot area

[red oyster]

Idk, all I know is v1 needs to be cheap enough to be realistic

And I havent done the knee or hip yet

THat's just the ankle

[ruby lagoon]

I think that joint would work well enough for the knee actually

[red oyster]

I am doing the reverse for the knee

Actuator on the back

[ruby lagoon]

yea, that makes sense

[red oyster]

The hip will have more RoM

[ruby lagoon]

RoM?

[red oyster]

Range of Motion

[ruby lagoon]

Ah. I kept thinking Read-Only Memory

[red oyster]

ah

not ROM

RoM

[ruby lagoon]

Read-only Memory

[red oyster]

lmao

[ruby lagoon]

I have an alternative to the saddle joint that might be easier or harder to deal with btw:

Wait nvm, that's 2 hinge joints. It won't work... at least not out of some range of motion

Honestly, I think a saddle joint surrounded by 4 attached springs would be best, then one more actuator on the side

[ruby lagoon]

Peroneal/tibialis muscles as well as saddle joints are needed to not fall on stuff like this

I think some of the boston dynamics robots might have this actually:

Yea, I think they have it set up the same way as the Shadow Robotics wrist

Look at that initial tilt, yet the foot stays flat on the floor: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/atlas-spin.gif

And this one as well:

[red oyster]

I will work on it somehow

[ruby lagoon]

I have 3 ideas for it so far, no idea which is better or easier to make: double hinge, double compliant hinge, and saddle with springs.
It's kinda hard to figure out really

[red oyster]

Modeling them is hard as hell regardless

[ruby lagoon]

true

[red oyster]

Was hoping to push complete RoM to v2 and get her walking first

[ruby lagoon]

Fair. I'm just not sure if walking is possible or not without that. If it was a quadruped robot, it'd definitely be possible

[red oyster]

I will try something tomorrow

I found this

looks interesting

Similar

[ruby lagoon]

Oh those blue slots are very interesting

Also, is that a ball in socket on top?

[red oyster]

yes

[red oyster]

I really should be asleep rn

[red oyster]

Ball Joint

[opaque quartz]

I am awake

11 hour healing coma

for maximum neuro effect