Neurobot-1000 3d model project

[opaque quartz]

This gif shows the types of rotation provided by 3 motors on the hips

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/JGCeZHNb8bNFxbsZD5hvX5M9grmG5SapmWiD2VLsPCo/https/ernestwong.nz/files/2017-08-06-how-diffs-work/diffio.gif?width=805&height=325

[opal bane]

I understand the three in the hips

[opaque quartz]

oh i misread

the one in the thigh is for sideways rotation of the thigh

[opal bane]

Okay maybe I don't understand the three in the hips, shouldn't one of the motors in the hips be responsible for sideways rotation?

[opaque quartz]

none of the gears are aligned for that

to get sideways rotation it needs to be aligned like that

i could put the motor for it in the hip area but it'd be a tight fit

since the thigh doesn't hold anything, and it connects to the rotor i need to add for the thigh, it makes more sense to put it there imo

[opal bane]

Ah yea that makes sense

[opaque quartz]

nice

drawing this made me realize that the innermost gear should probably be smaller and face the other direction

so that the motor has clearance to thread to the sideways gear

[opal bane]

So the rubber ducky method does work for engineers got it

[opaque quartz]

seems to be the case

now it's just a question of choosing where to put the motors and pulleys

[ruby lagoon]

Oh!
So you have the driving motors at the front and back of the pelvis. ventral and dorsal.
If they both drive it at once, the output pole with its right angle turn shifts up and down, giving the side kick motion (gluteus medius, I think)
if they drive in opposite directions, the gear twists, and since the pole has a right angle that drives the leg forward and backwards, that gives a running motion (maximus/rectus femorus/pectineus muscles)
Then the motor attached to that pole gives leg twist motion

I think it also works if the motors are side to side instead of front to back. It's just that the output shaft needs that 90 degree turn in it to turn twist into another motion.

[opaque quartz]

i think the gear has to be this big unless i shrink down the attachment point for the top/bottom gears

[ruby lagoon]

idk, I don't think you need that main gear if you have the right angle thing. I think you can get away with just having this part only

[opaque quartz]

huh, i thought it was needed for certain motions like twisting the leg whilst it moves up or down

[ruby lagoon]

I thought twisting the leg was what this motor was for:

[opaque quartz]

Nah that one's for extending it sideways

hence he big gear

the reason is because i want the point of rotation to be the same for each axis

[ruby lagoon]

Ah.
I think two large motors side to side in the pelvis area would allow sideways and frontal movement at the same point of origin

Then that motor below could twist instead (motor shaft directly connected to output shaft), and since that axis goes right through the center of the differential, it would also go through that point of origin

[opaque quartz]

I beleive so. To achieve twist you would then have another motor in the thigh for that

hah we both had the same thought

i think one benefit of the differential is sheer range of motion if i'm not mistaken

[ruby lagoon]

seems like it

[opaque quartz]

a drawback is probably efficiency loss due to the excess amount of gears

[ruby lagoon]

true

[opaque quartz]

just had the idea to swap the big gear for a pulley

[ruby lagoon]

the big gear isn't needed though

[opaque quartz]

we should probably number the gears lol

i meant the thigh gear

unless u mean thats not needed

[ruby lagoon]

yes. Whew...

the larger cyllinders are the motors

motion: https://ernestwong.nz/files/2017-08-06-how-diffs-work/diffio.gif

[opaque quartz]

unless we end up working with high torque wide motors it might be best to swap to the basic 'rotate motor' design

[opaque quartz]

aye that, and then get rotation via a motor in the thigh right?

seems pretty good

[ruby lagoon]

yea, but I don't see where the larger gear comes in

[opaque quartz]

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/5mik5MfmY2b6PYiufDpIuBhbJ3vHiO7WDhJHNaPLsL4/https/i.makeagif.com/media/12-20-2015/PqMHJ-.gif?width=400&height=300

[opaque quartz]

it doesn't in your proposed design

[ruby lagoon]

ah

[opaque quartz]

in the gif the sidways rotation would be the largest shown gear imo

that seems like the best and coolest looking option

[ruby lagoon]

True. Differentials are cool

[opaque quartz]

since neuro is an entertainer 1st and foremost, aestetics plays a bigger role than in most robots

[ruby lagoon]

ye

[opaque quartz]

do you know if we need to use two opposing ends or if we can use two right angled ends instead?

I think opposing actually

since it needs to be able to hinge at the 'sides'

[ruby lagoon]

wdym?

You can move the driving motors 90 degrees with bevel gears for a slight efficiency loss if you need to

[opaque quartz]

we're using this arrangement ye

i simply got confused for a moment

[ruby lagoon]

ah

[opaque quartz]

I just realized that if we order these gears custom, we can design it to be an actual complete sphere

since on the gif i provided, the top and bottom on the rotating end are cut off

that might be sacrificing too much weight for aestetics tho

[ruby lagoon]

perhaps
btw, I was planning on PLA loss casting aluminum or cnc milling gears sometime, if normal 3d printed stuff doesn't work

3d printing is easier, but aluminum is much stronger so the parts can be smaller

[opaque quartz]

i've come up with an issue: when the joint rotates 45 degrees 'upwards' such that the larger, flatter side from which the leg attaches is facing 'forwards' in a knee raised posture, the anchor point to the torso on the exterior of the hip gets in the way of sideways rotation

[ruby lagoon]

wait, in the driving motors front/back version, or motors side/side version?

[opaque quartz]

both i think

cause they fasten on via the side along the axis of rotation

[ruby lagoon]

I think side/side motors version puts the angle limit on the side flex, so the leg can't be extended past 90 degrees

[ruby lagoon]

yea, I think the output shaft, given its 90 degree turn, would intersect with the differential if twisted too much

But I think that limit can either be put on the front or side

[opaque quartz]

depicted: thigh extended towards camera, orthographic

the linkage gets in the way of sideways rotation at this angle

it can go 45 degrees but no further

One option is to simply get rid of that motor

[ruby lagoon]

clink!

[opaque quartz]

yeah

[ruby lagoon]

I measured 70 degrees in both directions though

but it depends on motor/shaft sizes

[opaque quartz]

i think 70 degrees can be ok

[ruby lagoon]

If it's mimicking the forward/backwards muscles, I think it'd be pretty bad even with 70. Side to side though, I think it could be fine

[opaque quartz]

it's better that it be structurally robust

ok i ust tried irl and i can't rotate further than 70 degrees

[ruby lagoon]

I can do even less going inwards instead of outwards

[opaque quartz]

i'm pretty satisfied with this hip design, seems like the most elegant solution in terms of mobility compared to rigidity

[opal bane]

Now.... Arms

[opaque quartz]

😂 yes, it is time

[opal bane]

Actually wait let's not get too far up yet

Still need knees

And feet

Potentially toes but i think that's a tad too far

[opaque quartz]

that one's going to be tricky, i remember hearing that these motors need to output power equal to the wait on top of them unlike a human body, so we might need some strong motors in the ankles

maybe we can use rope pulleys since the legs are now free space?

[ruby lagoon]

I wonder if we could get away with mostly just having springs around the ankles or something. idk

well, springs are almost required for pulley systems anyway. "Ligaments"

[opaque quartz]

i feel like that'd slip too much, i intend on giving this robot a human-like gait as shown here:

so we'd need some way of applying leverage via side motion in the ankles

since otherwise we'd need to have grippy stilts of some kind

even one high torque motor horizontally in the ankle would help keep her upright

[ruby lagoon]

I feel like pulleys are so much easier...
Unless you want differential joints in the ankles and wrists too

[opaque quartz]

yeah pulleys are the way to go imo

since we now have tons of free leg space

some way of applying torque to the feet

[opal bane]

Yeah i think pulleys best

[opaque quartz]

unanimous

time to research

[opal bane]

I don't think my vote counts i am not remotely an engineer

[night tartan]

I'm also not an engineer, but pulleys are very interesting and save lots of space. Also, they allow some flexibility if they go onto corners like the knees, we just gotta find a pulley that's strong enough for the robot so it doesn't snap easily.

[last epoch]

I dont imagine that material selection for pulley wire would be too difficult

Steel wire should be enough

the issue is determining diameter, but that can be saved for later imo

[opal bane]

pulleys would also probably work decently well for arms when we get to it

as we have even less space in those

[ruby lagoon]

I think the same differential could also be used for shoulders if one of the driving motors is at a right angle and the other isn't... but I'm not sure

The spherical gear mechanism could be good too though

[opal bane]

it'd be so cool if ellie saw this

[ruby lagoon]

This was kinda hard. It should make designing planetary gearboxes for custom servos easier though:

[opaque quartz]

Added the motors. I went for the widest and therefore most efficient motors available

10cm x 6cm, and 15cm x 3cm

[ruby lagoon]

big motors

[opaque quartz]

https://www.magneticinnovations.com/products/torque-motors/mi-f-110/?_gl=1*g6rfhb*_up*MQ.._gaMTEzNDI1NjEyOC4xNzM3NDk5MTUz*_ga_5G2CKNRS8X*MTczNzQ5OTE1Mi4xLjEuMTczNzUwMDE3MS4wLjAuMA..

i went for these motors because they have huge torque, which means minimum energy loss from gear reduction

the inner motors would have to be built from scratch from a stator since i can't find any in its size

15cm should offer decent torque

[ruby lagoon]

building motors from scratch is a huge pain. You need to 3d print all the stators, wind the wires around them, and either buy or make custom permanent magnets for the specific motor shape

I feel like there should be some really powerful BLDC motors, but you'd have to use a gearbox to get them to the right torque/speed

A planetary gearbox could be around 98% efficient, so I think it'd be fine

[opaque quartz]

yeah it costs around about £500 for a custom motor due to the magnets and the cnc machined parts (3d printed parts wear out due to heat)

[opaque quartz]

huh nice

[ruby lagoon]

(Ah, 3D printed depends on the material. PEEK is hard to even print, but nylon/PC/ABS and stuff might work. Not sure though)

[opaque quartz]

i'll do some more experimenting

but for now i'm heading to bed

[ruby lagoon]

night

[opaque quartz]

[night tartan]

I grabbed this model from ppgrules945 to test how well some batteries would fit on the body:
https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1328583502144344105

Surprisingly, a lot whole of NONE!
I scaled down the model so it goes to 4 feet before testing
Then... dissapointment:
EVE_MB31 [314 AH]: Doesn't even fit at all
EVE_LF50K [50 AH]: Looks like it fits, but, in reality, her waist wins the battle, just barely
EVE_LF105 [105 AH], EVE_A22 [178 AH] and EVE_A28 [87 AH] They fit, and you can stack 2 of them.... If it wasn't by the motors!
EVE_LF100A [100 AH]: Not short enough to snuggle on the motors.

The model actual size probably doesn't reflect what we end up with, but, it's pretty clear that those cube batteries won't fit on her, even if we need the backup. (Unless there could be space between the batteries and the motors, but it's probably sience fiction)

Maybe there's space for some pouch batteries, but there's quite a lot less room than I thought.

Anyways, why i am awake? It's 2AM!

[opal bane]

So we need to get some sort of power transfer system, or just make her gas powered or something

Having her gas powered feels lame though

Could also use the legs as a battery bank?

[rugged skiff]

Gas powered?
Yeah maybe we can give her steam powered quantum energy cannons as well.

[opal bane]

I swear gasoline was discussed as an energy souce once earlier

[ruby lagoon]

Oh, right. The battery system in my last robot was hard.
However, if you have any arrangement of 18650s and a BMS for them, I should have a circuit that can make it an uninterruptible power supply

The schematics for the UPS circuit:

The ups circuit working with a bunch of taped together 18650s:

That one was necessary because there weren't any batteries available that could handle the amps you'd want on a robot. Maybe a car battery, but that'd be larger than the robot.
I had a spot welder and nickel strips to bind the 18650 cells. However, solder paste or normal solder can work, though it does harm the 18650s a bit and may ignite them if you're not careful.

(The circuit needs updating though. It needs some tiny diods and zener diodes, because the 'is_plugged' is too variable and the 'battery_charge_sense' had bad feedback iirc.)
(Still, I have the 3d model for that circuit, with the masks and everything)

(Pls some actual electrical engineer come and tell me how bad the circuit is... and how I can merge the 6 buck converters into 1 or 2 high amperage ones)

[opal bane]

Ferb i know what we're gonna do today

[ruby lagoon]

I don't think it would work for the MVP

Version 2 maybe

[opal bane]

Ok so according to Google the smallest nuclear reactor built thus far is 40 cm tall and 23 cm wide

Too big

And that was for space so

It's gonna be a minute

[ruby lagoon]

Yea. Unfortunately.
I think some plutonium or other engines work with thermal decay and are pretty small, but that's also really expensive

Ah: Radioisotope thermoelectric generator

[opal bane]

Swarm threw about 700k at vedal during the subathon

[ruby lagoon]

Based on their mass, I think they're pretty small: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator#Space
(don't use this lol)

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, so he has money to throw at making an army of neuro bots!

[opal bane]

Yes

We just gotta crowdfund it

I do wonder what current pricing is on all the parts we're planning to use

[ruby lagoon]

18650s and DC motors are cheap
gas engines and BLDC motors or pre-made servos are expensive

Maybe there will be different tiers

[opal bane]

So theoretically with subathon money alone vedal could probably afford like 10 of these

[ruby lagoon]

As long as it used 18650s. If it was gas engines I think it'd be pretty expensive, especially if they had to be custom ordered

[night tartan]

Also... last time I tried searching for engines, the only ones I saw they could fit (and work) were ones made for RC plane propellers.

[fickle maple]

ALL THE BEST!! this looks so awesome, reminding me a lot of the things Hacksmith Industries do on YT

[opaque quartz]

excellent work

i think if we go for these batteries we'd have to lean into the 'boxy robot aestetic' and have them poke out a bit from her body in front and behind, leaving them visible on her in front and behind

other means of power could be that 15x15cm engine. it'd also probably poke out of her front and behind, but it'd look cooler

5 hp is 3700 watts, almost equal to four of those batteries

schematics are here

[opaque quartz]

that looks awesome

also
fat neuro

[night tartan]

yeah, i don't like the "boxy robot aestetic". There's definitely ways to put some kinda batteries on there, maybe some but i definitely like the engine idea more.

Also, the X-Ray gets confusing because there's the cloth layer and the body layer so it's hard to see

[opaque quartz]

oh true

yeah i think engine aestetic could work cause it'd look like her body is the engine

[night tartan]

Yeah, like a heart, yep.

[opaque quartz]

not sure if we can order one or if we'd instead need to design our own version, which would be insanely hard

liquidpiston seem like they are more focussed on R&D and want investments rn

instead of actually making them in bulk

plus it might have been a test version not intended to be sold

those are my fears actually

today i should probably delve into their documents on their website more

[opaque quartz]

i saw some like that too. I believe i saw a tiny radial engine with about 1.5 hp

[night tartan]

That was my last found. I'm unsure about it's hp, but there're some that claim to do like 3 hp. It's very small to be fair.

I'll probably try to search more of those engines, because that tony stark engine is.. well... still not on sale.

[opaque quartz]

looks smaller than the reverse wankel engine, so it should fit. What's its horsepower?

if it's anything above 1 horsepower we could probably use it, and that'd leave more room for alternator, fuel tank, battery and any other gubbins needed to assemble a small electric generator

i believe most electric generators use 4 stroke engines due to the torque you can get out of them

rn i think one of our biggest issues for engines is the alternator, since i havn't seen one yet with less than 10cm x 10cm x 15cm dimensions

[night tartan]

It didn't say. It's probably like 2,5hp if i had to guess. I'll search deeper to confirm.
I'll help with the alternator search.

[opaque quartz]

if it's anywhere close to that, it might actually be more attractive than the other engine

not only due to space concerns but also availability and usability

[opaque quartz]

ty

[night tartan]

Ship! That engine only has 0.95 Horse Power. not even breaking 1

okey. This engine is 5cm longer, But holy heck, it has 3HP. There's an actual chance we could use one of these. (Gotta search deeper, this is turning to be interesting)

[opaque quartz]

nice

15cm x 20cm by 6cm doesn't sound too bad, i'll test out whether it can fit

First option is like this, problem is it doesn't leave neuro much room to tilt/rotate her torso sideways

second option would be to have the crank shaft face forwards or backwards

this would mean the alternator would be in front or behind her sticking out though, with a belt drive

i'll draw that one too

[night tartan]

If we need an smaller engine, I already found smaller ones that range from 1 to 2 HP

[opaque quartz]

oh nice

i'd love to see them, sounds awesome

i think two is our lowest option

[night tartan]

for 2HP i found this one.

[opaque quartz]

yoooo

15cm is perfect

you'll love this one drawn

probably enough room on the left there for the alternator

if we can find one that's 6cm long that is

I think the engine looks kind of like a lung if you squint a bit

or a stomach

[night tartan]

where food (gasoline in this case) is stored to convert onto energy for later (Why it makes sense?)

[opaque quartz]

it's almost spooky

but i love that

one advantage of going for these small engines in addittion to batteries instead of just batteries, is that rather than having 20cm by 17cm for the 1000 Watt hours, we use that space for several hours worth of fuel depending on the size of the fuel tank

so we get way more use out of the space available

[night tartan]

so true. Fuel energy density is unmatched (And allows neuro to "eat" somehow) instead of beeing pluged in with a cable witch give her absolute independance (scarry thought)

[opaque quartz]

lmao

that's actually a really interesting factor

even with 100% battery power, she'd still need to figure out a way to plug herself in

however with an engine, if she escapes, she can find fuel anywhere

[night tartan]

And then neuro will be free

[opaque quartz]

[night tartan]

To be fair, i like more the fuel system. With full batteries, you gotta somehow have a plug that's visible or accessible. Fuel ingestion doesn't break "human aesthetic"

[opaque quartz]

I found a small alternator

that's assuming the diameter includes those two fastening points that stick out on it

i'll probably go with smaller motors in the hips and then use that space for the fuel tank

[opaque quartz]

yeah fr

same with me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjChPLUj7XQ

the noise

[opaque quartz]

https://www.justengines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/FA-125a-Manual.pdf

I found this engine which has extremely similar dimensions but far more power (FA-100 is about 1.7 to 2 horsepower, this one is 2.2 horsepower)

it's also quiter

they probably improved the internals so that there's less waste energy in heat/noise/vibrations

[night tartan]

nice findings

[night tartan]

It's so loud, it's funny the tiny engine trying it's best

I hope that cute alternator can actually generate enough power, the conversion from gas to electricity is never 100%

[opaque quartz]

2.2 hp engine looks like this

[opaque quartz]

lmao

[opaque quartz]

fr

this is what i found for it

https://www.denso-am.eu/news/20180315_s3_why-a-smaller-alternator-makes-a-difference-to-vehicle-performance

lots of hype here but not any hard figures

[night tartan]

There's literally only one way to find out the power generation. Actually buying the parts

[opaque quartz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPQho47yFI

lets go with this engine since it's practically the same size, but with more horsepower so if the alternator is low efficiency, we at least get some output

[night tartan]

makes sense, more power = better. Also, sounds like a sports car and not like a cheap airplane

Well... not like a... well... forget it, i'm dum. I don't know anything about cars

[opaque quartz]

nah i get you

@ruby lagoon what kind of outer diameter would we be looking at for planetary gearboxes? I'm thinking we could grab one of these motors, put a gearbox with measurement equal to its inner diameter, and attach them together via a custom frame and output shaft. That way we maximize power and efficiency whilst also massively saving on space.

https://www.moog.com/products/motors-servomotors/brushless-motors/high-performance-direct-drive-brushless-dc-motors.html

alternatively we could slap a planetary gearbox in front of a smaller motor, but then we'd want the gearbox to be as short as possible to save on space, and it'd need to have more reductions since narrow motors are lower torque

i think our best bet is a motor between 5cm and 10cm diameter, with a planetary gearbox inside of it, making it very short so that it's something like 5cm x 5cm, or 4cm x 6cm, or 3cm x 8cm outer diameter.

For example here is a 7cm outer diameter motor, with a 3cm inner diameter, and up to 5cm length.

but we could order it shorter than 5cm

at 5cm it'd produce 8nm, which can become 100nm with 12/1 gear reduction

the hip joint can handle some of the reduction as well so it could be less reduction in the planetary gear

if we chose a 7cm wide x 3cm long motor, we should add more gear reductions to it and then it'd fit more compactly into the hips

[opaque quartz]

With 7cm x 7m x 3cm with 3cm internal gearbox the hips can be designed like this with space for fuel tanks, but the question is if that's enough room for the gearbox. If not, we can maybe go with a small commercial motor, but they're all so big and weak that we'd need a super flat 50/1 gearbox attached to them

[opal bane]

with every one of these design updates i swear the backround neuro fades out more

im pretty sure the alternator is jutting into the arm slightly though

[opaque quartz]

It is slightly yeah

I could probably lower them both slightly, maybe

[night tartan]

Don't worry, i found another engine. I'm trying to read their 3D file they provide because their 2D images don't tell the exact full length, but it's even more powerfull than our current one. (And smaller? If we don't count the shaft?)
https://www.dlengine.com/en/rcengine/dle20ra/

[opaque quartz]

wow nice

[night tartan]

Halp. What is this? xD (I've never seen a IGS file in my entire life)

[opaque quartz]

It's kinda crazy that they don't include the full measurements

I can scale it based off of what they give us though

13.8 cm excluding shaft

[opal bane]

what about the exhaust from a gas engine?

[opal bane]

ooh

[night tartan]

Maybe she can exaust them from nose/mouth like we do with CO2? would be cool but in reality, probably too much will be mixed up on those tubes

[opal bane]

main issue is it's not great for humans

especially indoors

[opaque quartz]

it sounds funny but it'd prevent Vedal from getting to close to her cause she'd be venting hot gas onto him from her face 24/7

like turbo bad breath

[opal bane]

she'd need a storage tank for it or something, so she can expell when nessasary

we're inventing a robot that farts, people

[night tartan]

Yeah.. an engine expels way too muhc fumes...

[opaque quartz]

what you think?

[opaque quartz]

nice idea

[opal bane]

think we need more fuel than that

shift the engine and alternator more to the left (its right)

[opaque quartz]

i'll have a look at how much fuel these RC engines guzzle

[opal bane]

shouldnt it be in the stats

[night tartan]

I finally got the file openned in gosh darn CAD. Max heights without accounting the exaust:
17,5 cm long
13,7 cm tall
(That's accounting for their maximum, so there's lots of empty air really)

[opal bane]

hm actually move it back and then we can have the left side be fuel tanks

center of mass might actually be an issue

[opaque quartz]

nice

[opal bane]

well das no good

[night tartan]

Good thing the DLE engine is not the Saito one (I'm not sure how it performs, though)

[opaque quartz]

yep that matches up @night tartan

[opaque quartz]

yeah

😂

[night tartan]

Of course... we just gotta make neuro spin while she skydives problem solved

[opal bane]

the heck are they gonna do about it? sue us?

[opaque quartz]

big brain

[opaque quartz]

i assume this is for liability so that we can't sue them

if we hurt ourselves cramming it into a robot body

[opal bane]

ah

the robot body is more likley to hurt us than the engine while building it

[opaque quartz]

by some weird coincidence, the alternator ended up where the heart should be, and the fuel tank ended up where the stomach should be

[opal bane]

absolute cinema

[opaque quartz]

also the engine could be considered the lungs, and it's sitting around and below the heart, but above the stomach, which is where the lungs should be

[night tartan]

That probably means we're doing it right, is the signal

[opaque quartz]

yes indeed

[ruby lagoon]

Wait, did you get that this allows for battery packs of any shape? No boxy robot necessary
An engine would be cool though, as long as it's not super loud

[opal bane]

i think our chosen material would have to help in the soundproofing department

[ruby lagoon]

For this I need to know the input speed/ torque, output speed/torque, and material (abs, aluminum, steel?). That way I can calculate the required gear face area and then required diameter.

[opaque quartz]

we can probably slide a long, thin battery onto the left side (her right)

something like this maybe

an issue might be heat though

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, there also doesn't have to be one battery pack or a box shaped one. You could have a few long belt of batteries connected together.

[opaque quartz]

oh i remember

i left a space available between the thighs

there's a good 6 cm x 10 cm of space in the hip area

[opaque quartz]

true

[ruby lagoon]

(Oh, also, for some engines and fuels, you'd want some catalytic converters so Neuro doesn't breath out carbon monoxide everywhere. I think some fuels don't have CO output though. )

[ruby lagoon]

So, 1:12 with 8nm to 100nm, and 1:50?
I don't have the code up yet, so I'll take a bit to calculate that...

[opal bane]

i think we'd have to run it off the usual gas station fuels

[ruby lagoon]

Ah. Pretty sure those ones do produce carbon monoxide

[opaque quartz]

not sure actually, i'd have to contact the supplier. I know the minimum and maximum specifications but it's based on length, and i'd be using a length greater than the minimum but less than the maximum

[opaque quartz]

really good point

current progress:

lmao

[opal bane]

we really should shove a catalytic converter somewhere

[opaque quartz]

probably out of the back, it's closest to the engine block and would direct exhaust away from where she's facing

[night tartan]

If engines just didn't output that much gas... (Fart exaust, anyone?)

[ruby lagoon]

(Off the top of my head though, 1:12 would require 1-2cm length and motor diameter with ABS even with 100nm, since it could have large gear teeth. 1:50 might be able to do the same with aluminum)

[night tartan]

The engine gear is even placed right besides the alternator gear. Cute

[opaque quartz]

i was physically restraining myself from mentioning this

[opaque quartz]

that'd be good, we have 3cm internal diameter and 3cm length to play with using the proposed motor option

and we can use the hips for some gear reduction

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, that's close to the 550 motor diameter, so it should be close to the previous estimations I did

[opaque quartz]

excellent

since the length won't be 5cm, but rather 3cm, we won't be getting 8nm sadly

[opaque quartz]

imma check em again

demn cannot find em

we should be getting 4.8 nm of torque out of our motors if this is correct

if necessary i could boost the length to 4cm to get 6.4 nm

but it'd be a tight fit

[ruby lagoon]

I think the motors usually only have to be around 50rpm though, so if we can get a gearbox on the output then most motors are probably way faster than necessary

[opaque quartz]

yeah maybe even less

since a full rotation in one second is enormously fast

at a stretch, 30 rpm could be enough

only reason we wouldn't reduce much is simply space considerations for the gearbox

if you can reduce further in 3cm diameter 3cm length area, do it, since that'll make neuro stronger

[ruby lagoon]

Huh. The online planetary gearbox search goes up to 7:1, so 2 planetary gearboxes in series can get a 1:20 total ratio with 1:4 and 1:5.
The split ring gearbox search found [Fraction(9, 205), planet2=14, sun2=13, planet1=10, sun1=8], which would be about the same overall size
I got about 2mm for aluminum for both gearboxes using a 120% safety factor using the Hertzian formula, and 1cm for ABS. Seems like both materials should work.
Idk the rpm of the 4.8 newton meter motors, but 1:20 should give them an output of 96 newton meters.

Calculations may be slightly off, but it seems like aluminum is almost an order of magnitude stronger than necessary, so it should work if ABS doesn't.

[night tartan]

The engine is not stupidly expensive (and it's available)

[opaque quartz]

awesome, ty

seems like something we can tentativley call doable

imma move on to the arms and legs now

[ruby lagoon]

yay

[night tartan]

[opaque quartz]

I also tried out a 8 hp engine but sadly it was too big

looks very similar

what are the specs on that one you found?

[night tartan]

All of this, but 2.5HP at 9000 rpm

[opaque quartz]

AH it's the one we were looking at before

it's cool that they seem to be quite available on various sites

nice find

https://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/mechanical_engineering/Using_Pulleys_with_Electric_Motors.pdf

this document seems to be about pulleys that act like gear reducers

normal pulleys can be bought easily

or machined

so all that's important now is deciding the motor positions for the ankle pulleys

our motors are luckily thin enough that we can place one in the knee directly

[night tartan]

@opaque quartz
Maaaybe if you wanna try more HP, this one does 4.1HP, but, depending on where we lack space, this may not fit at all.
(I'm asuming it's the "height", probably)
20 cm long
15.3 cm tall
7.6 cm width

[opaque quartz]

i'll give this one a try. Do you know what it's called?

i can find some 2d measured images

[night tartan]

That's the DLE35RA
https://www.dlengine.com/en/rcengine/dle35ra/
It has images as well

[ruby lagoon]

Energy sources that could fit so far:

• 18650s packed in wherever there's space
• Internal stroke stirling generator (custom)
• ~2.5 HP model airplane gas engine
• Radioisotope thermoelectric generator (custom)

[opal bane]

it's funny that we're using an airplane engine for a robot

[ruby lagoon]

lmao

"So Neuro how are you liking your new robot body"
Engine: ptt ptt ptt ptt ptt...
Neuro:"Hmm, lemme think..."
Engine: Vrrm VROOOOM

[night tartan]

Hopefully we can find a way to muffle the sound a bit or she will be heard in like... everywhere

[ruby lagoon]

Would be awesome for some robots tbh. Just might be loud during some conversations

[grizzled steppe]

WOW hard work here

https://tenor.com/view/neuro-sama-vtuber-gif-7151479832340198495

[opaque quartz]

😂 im crying

idk if there is space for a muffler

[opaque quartz]

im so confused

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSjB3vEnAJ8

[ruby lagoon]

Oh yea, artificial finger using compliant hinges: https://cad.onshape.com/documents/4b7082cfc27fde4c51ed179c/w/07f089e564254ca91d31e84d/e/b3f2ffc2f9edbe97a344209a?renderMode=0&uiState=679153963063767062df0c74

[opaque quartz]

awesome, ty

[ruby lagoon]

Yw

[ocean ridge]

when you are using many electro motors that are small and kinda suround batteries, dont you have to calcuulate in the effeckt of the generating magnetic fields on the bateries?

[ruby lagoon]

Huh...
That sounds like a pain. Maybe we could just shield the batteries with mu metal or something?

[ocean ridge]

i could also be wrong because i am not an expert. but if yes, that would be hard

but anyways, with what kind of mettal? what mettal would protect the bateries without getting poled?

or magnetified

[ruby lagoon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal

[ocean ridge]

would work i think

but the maths are gotta be horror i think, and even more place taken

by the way, whats the concept scedulle at this point?

[opaque quartz]

if i had infinite resources i'd say metallic glass

[ocean ridge]

what is metallic glaß?

[opaque quartz]

Otherwise known as amorphous metal, metallic glass is a metal that's cooled so quickly that the atoms don't have time to arrange into a crystalline structure, and solidify with a jumbled atomic structure that's amorphous like glass. It's insanely strong for its weight. It works best with a metal alloy where the size of the attoms are extremely differrent from each other, because this encourages the atomic structure to stay amorphous and not snap together into a crystalline structure.

[ocean ridge]

ok

what is the construction plan right now?

[opaque quartz]

right now it's just to use machined steel and aluminium parts

[ocean ridge]

i think steel isnt a good option, its just to heavy and oxygizes what gives problems with keeping her running, i would rather use light alloys like titanium

it would also take less space

[opaque quartz]

titanium is a pain to machine

[ruby lagoon]

Titanium is expensive and steel is also hard. I think aluminum is good unless there are hard requirements that mean we absolutely need something more expensive

[ocean ridge]

you guys and girls are right

[opaque quartz]

in some specific use cases such as the shaft of a servo motor, steel is desirable because it enhances the strength of the magnetic field in the motor

[ocean ridge]

ok

dont have that deep knowlage

[opaque quartz]

i think that steel's strength and toughness means it'd be good to use in select load-bearing places as well

everything else can be aluminium

aren't there aviation grade aluminiums that are insanely tough as well?

lemme look those up

https://industrialmetalservice.com/metal-university/aerospace-grade-aluminum/#:~:text=Aerospace-grade aluminum refers to a category of aluminum,grades such as 2024%2C 6061%2C 7050%2C and 7075.

[ocean ridge]

aluminum crystalises over time when the presure on it doesnt changes what makes it extremely touth after certain times

[opaque quartz]

that's cool, didn't know about that

[ocean ridge]

yeah, basic knowlage for me, but not for everyone

but still, what do we do about the oxygisation of the steel?

[ruby lagoon]

stainless steel?
Just don't let oxygen get to it?

[opaque quartz]

https://www.industrialmetalsupply.com/blog/aerospace-aluminum

[opaque quartz]

stainleess steel is commonly used in these kinds of robots yeah

imo an underlying rigid skeleton in stainless steel, with aerospace grade aluminium elsewhere, would be neat

[ocean ridge]

stainless steel isnt magnetic because of it just being pumped full with not coroding materials

stainless means magnationless

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, so any transformer/nickel-iron metal in the motors could rust. Hmm...

[opaque quartz]

these alloys all sound excellent

(out of a list of about a dozen)

[ocean ridge]

and its not a good idea not letting air flow because of gases that could build up and hot air is wider than cold air

[ruby lagoon]

Heh, maybe seal neuro's inside and put a candle in there or something so all the oxygen burns away before it can rust anything

[ocean ridge]

neuro would explode becouse of the air widening and the preasure getting to high

[opaque quartz]

just make the rods replacable imo

[ocean ridge]

you know the furnacess used in stoneage? same principal

good idea, but how?

isnt the rod in a electric motor kind of holding everithing from breaking emideately?

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, make Neuro a balloon.
Silicone outer layer acts like skin already and is flexible.
Then add the ability to add/remvove gas into a chamber and burn some stuff there to remove the oxygen, then let the gas in, or just breathe the gas out.

If rust really is a problem (I don't think it would be unless we're talking years or right by the ocean), a pressure sensor and a burn chamber would probably be pretty simple

[ocean ridge]

a breathing mexamism would be the most practical i think

on then its same what gas is in there and we could add a vacuum funktion for like sleep mode to make it even safer

[ruby lagoon]

Also I think there might be motors that just don't use exposed metal that rusts.

And for steel/iron skeleton, I think you can seal those in some rubber or other material so they're not exposed to air

[opaque quartz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koOQJhqo5r4

some sort of locking mechanism

[ocean ridge]

we need as small and simple mechanics as possible so it would be good to not have to add a complex systhem

[opaque quartz]

yeah the space available is tiny

[ocean ridge]

ok

[opaque quartz]

any frame we use would have to be unlockable and sturdy, within 1cm or less

[ocean ridge]

shaft removal only is a minor problem now

[opaque quartz]

there is about 1 centimeter spare room in her chassis

[ocean ridge]

1cm?

[opaque quartz]

1 centimeter

[ocean ridge]

can i get the schedulle?

[ruby lagoon]

Is that with the engine? Or some other stuff?

[night tartan]

Heck, she's packed

[opaque quartz]

scheduile as in stuff we're working on and in what order?

[opaque quartz]

between the motors

there is spare room but not in terms of the centerline

[ocean ridge]

everithing.

<-logistical mastermind

[ruby lagoon]

I don't know if there's a schedule yet. I thought this was just a bunch of ideas a few days ago.
A schedule might be nice tho

[opaque quartz]

rn we're just piecing together the components needed, and fitting them into schematics. We havn't done the legs, arm, or head yet. Once we get further along we can start talking about electrical components and how things connect together. Once that's done, it's the modelling step, and then simulation within a game engine to show the robot working in a virtual environment

after that (maybe??) build

but that might be years away yet

[ocean ridge]

thats deffinetly years away

sadly

[ruby lagoon]

That's not really a schedule, but you usually don't have a schedule in the design/planning stage. I think the design/planning stage is where you make the schedule.

[ocean ridge]

but such complex things just take their time

[ruby lagoon]

I was just gonna 3d print/build things once I got good 3d printed servos tbh

not necessarily perfect looking neuro bot, but at least some bot

[ocean ridge]

sorry for that, im just a little artist at the end constantly making schedulles

[last epoch]

Just caught up with the thread, happy to see a viable engine has been found

[ruby lagoon]

(tbh Boston Dynamic's new Atlas robot would be an easier in-between step:

[ocean ridge]

wow

[last epoch]

Ive looked into RTGs because of their incredibly long operational lives but all the examples Ive seen with the amount of power we want are way too bulky

plus we'd need to contact whatever nuclear regulatory commission of where we build this thing

[ocean ridge]

why nuclear?

[last epoch]

RTG -> Radioisotope thermoelectric generator

[ocean ridge]

why not just try nuclear fusion if were on it?

[last epoch]

basically using direct heat to electricity conversion via some kind of radioactive material temperature gradient

[ocean ridge]

oh, that?

[last epoch]

we could go with a non-radioactive thermoelectric generator but we'd have a similar problem of bulkiness

[queen wyvern]

Have we talked about how we are going to do facial movements yet? Like smiling or confusion

[ruby lagoon]

(Step before Boston dynamics humanoid robot: Maybe improved robo-duck wheeled robot arm? It could move, grab things, and fold laundry. )
(The problem with this one is that some of the servos are too weak and can't fully move the robot arm/head)

[ocean ridge]

didnt the us army make tests with that and broke em down because of it being way to dangerous?

[last epoch]

eyes, face, skin, etc will have to be an entirely separate project for how complicated it will be

[queen wyvern]

Skin? I guess we'd have to otherwise it would be a bunch of weird looking face plates

[last epoch]

they're used mostly in space applications iirc (and russia have used RTGs in lighttowers in the arctic)

[ocean ridge]

i think the face will take the longest

[opaque quartz]

yup

[ocean ridge]

i think 5-7 years are gonna be the face alone

it needs to be perfect for Neuro Sama

[queen wyvern]

I don't know about that, you can do a lot in a month

[ruby lagoon]

5-7 years just for a face sounds way too long

[opaque quartz]

the current plan i have is to use metal plates that shift orientation to match human expression. If we do it right it can look aestetic instead of nightmarish

[queen wyvern]

She's going to have to have her face replaced anyway for updates to her hardware when they come out

[ruby lagoon]

I feel like you could do it in a few months: take one of the existing robot face models and have an artist make a silicone mold for it.

[queen wyvern]

That's insane I love it

It looks so good

[ocean ridge]

we cant use the propotions of a normal human face because Neuro Samas face doesnt follow these, so we need to realise these too and turn the already exsisting technologies for faces over for Neuro Samas

[opaque quartz]

it's not a face but i'm thinking this kind of matte grey finish could really look nice for face plates, to make it human and emotive without looking too 'fake'

[ocean ridge]

?

[ruby lagoon]

Anime faces irl may be creepy, but we may have to change male robot faces to be female or match different bone structures

[night tartan]

Looks really cool

[opaque quartz]

my specialty when it comes to the skills i have is anatomy, i can get us a really nice human face that still seems like neuro.

[queen wyvern]

The whole look of the face is going to be hard to nail down, you're probably going to have to make a lot of adjustmants

[ocean ridge]

good. taking a cirkle behind it on the list

[night tartan]

They look bad because they're always done badly. Sculptures look really cool so, we can do it, it's jus a matter of how

[ocean ridge]

yeah, youre propably right

[ruby lagoon]

Oh yeah, some of them look bad because the robot doesn't move like humans. I think adding really fast movements and reactions would make most faces look nicer.

[opaque quartz]

this 100%

a lot of people don't realize it but one half of the uncaniness with robotics is that the sculptors don't use ideal proportions and misunderstand how everything works together

to understand that stuff you have to dig deep into human facial musculature anatomy

[ocean ridge]

yeah

[opaque quartz]

and understand how expressions tie into that

a really useful resource is modelling agencies because their livelihood depends on understanding human faces

and what makes a good human face

[ocean ridge]

there omes again that a anime face shows even expressions different

[opaque quartz]

this is the part of the project i'm most passionate about

[queen wyvern]

Yes

Getting an expert would help a lot

[ocean ridge]

we have one as our OP how it seems

[ruby lagoon]

(Side note: I feel like someone should be taking notes and organizing a design/build document around all this stuff)

[ocean ridge]

cant Matthew start a whiteboard as the OP?

[opal bane]

we do need to write down a parts list

[last epoch]

A formalized organization method would be useful, yeah

Maybe even creating a Slack

[opal bane]

the heck's a whiteboard?

[opaque quartz]

Sounds good. I have my own but it's really messy, a more formalized document would be a really good

[opal bane]

i mean that's a discord feature?

[ruby lagoon]

I made a google docs with link sharing set to commenting. Got about 6GB of space left in the drive for it.
Blank document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tdXbtFgtmjEBCugPtgLTqvyehsfGe6YuE4PXOVQK7xU/edit?usp=sharing

[ruby lagoon]

Alternatively maybe just put pages before the messy stuff and have the messy stuff be addendums?

[ocean ridge]

6gb are a couple of hundred thousand lines, should be enough

[opaque quartz]

uhhh it's really personalized and almost schizophrenic

[queen wyvern]

Hmm, maybe a Roadmap

[ruby lagoon]

(Now I wanna see it more... fair though)

[opaque quartz]

120 pages worth

[ocean ridge]

me too

[ruby lagoon]

wow

[opaque quartz]

most of that is from reference art

[opal bane]

im not going to understand a lick of it but grabby hands

[ocean ridge]

i thoght it would be more

by the way, what time is it for you, for me its 11pm

[ruby lagoon]

15:01

[ocean ridge]

ok

thats a difference

[opal bane]

eyy same!

[opaque quartz]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1USKIx4qvF5gEVc0TgfPfUURr_R-Tp42Q1ZkasvdIU7k/edit?usp=sharing

[opal bane]

https://tenor.com/view/sacred-text-star-wars-luke-yoda-gif-16551138

[opaque quartz]

if anyone finds good reference for robot style, send it here and i'll add it if i like it enough

rn i'm really interested in seeing versious ways a chassis might be styled

[ruby lagoon]

(O yea, I was going to make an artificial spine/neck/tail with something like this, but pulleys:

[opaque quartz]

when i saw that origionally i thought "neck"

[opal bane]

that looks very neck

[ruby lagoon]

(Instead of pistons and a platform, have a saddle joint in between and have pulleys pull them together)

I think you need a few of them stacked to get neck-level flexibility. Iirc almost all mammals use 7.

[opaque quartz]

yeah

[ruby lagoon]

However, birds can use more (and can turn their heads like owls) because they use saddle joint connections instead of just squishy material in between

[opal bane]

random note i have GOT to figure out why colors are inverted in google docs...

[opaque quartz]

with this project one of the things i want to focus on is human-capability through means other than human anatomy; An arm joint with motors for example filling the role of muscles. Basically the design language i want to go for is "It does what a human can do, and looks human-like" but the means can be differrent to exactly how we go about it

for example the spine movement will be replaced by a single pivot joint

but near the base of the spine where most spine rotation happens irl

[queen wyvern]

Should you pin this?

[ocean ridge]

i think we should start making plans for a little test torso and convince Vedol somehow to give us a test version of Neuro Sama to run it on the test torso to make shure we dont get formatation problemms later

[opaque quartz]

sure

oh i don't have perms for that

[queen wyvern]

Got it, it looks good by the way

[opaque quartz]

nah way too early

[ocean ridge]

ok

[opaque quartz]

for now we can replicate gravity and forces on a computor

[ocean ridge]

but we could start convincing

[opaque quartz]

rn we're at a stage where the whole design can change as well

[opaque quartz]

nah

ellie needs to get her bread

i don't want to impact anything she has going on

[ocean ridge]

ok

[opaque quartz]

imo long term, i want this project to speak for itself and become useful once it's useful

[opal bane]

maybe we could poke a mod to pin it?

[ruby lagoon]

Yeah. Ellie's probably going to make a boston dynamics style robot fairly quickly

[opaque quartz]

^^^

[ocean ridge]

who is ellie?

[opaque quartz]

a robotocist vedal hired to build neuro dog, and probably wants to hire to build neurohuman

[ruby lagoon]

Found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pwCSzVi81g

[opal bane]

gal who's making the neurodog and probably first bipedal bot too

[ocean ridge]

wow

[ruby lagoon]

5k sounds about right for parts, but she's not including R&D and salary costs at all

[opaque quartz]

based ellie

[ocean ridge]

i think we should name our cult Neuro-Humanoistion

[opal bane]

or we could just... not

[opaque quartz]

i like how long it is

😂

[ocean ridge]

realy?

[opaque quartz]

that's how true neurons do it

[ocean ridge]

ok

[ocean ridge]

i think the cult name is now in act

[opal bane]

thanks vanor

[ocean ridge]

yeah, thx

[opal bane]

didnt know people were lurking in here...

[prime rose]

don't be afraid to ping me whenever you need something pinned

[ocean ridge]

ok

[ruby lagoon]

thx

[opaque quartz]

ty vanor

[ocean ridge]

what stands next on the list?

[opal bane]

it was either figuring out what we're doing with the exhaust from the gas engine or leg design

[ocean ridge]

exhaust i would say we simulate a breathing systhem

[ruby lagoon]

Are we going with a gas engine or batteries?

[ocean ridge]

idk

[opal bane]

remember exhaust is toxic

[ruby lagoon]

I vote batteries because I already made a battery system

[ocean ridge]

holding all options open i guess?

but i vote for battery too

[night tartan]

I have the idea of acumulating the gas here between her legs so... when the time comes, she needs to go to the bathroom

[opal bane]

i like battery but i dont know if it's feasible

[ocean ridge]

much simpler

[ruby lagoon]

It is. My duck robot up there can output ~10 amps or something so it can drive all of its motors at once if it needs.

[ocean ridge]

that goes too far

[ruby lagoon]

Those are 6v motors. 24v might actually be easier to work with

[ocean ridge]

yeah

[opal bane]

better than breathing hot gas into anyone who she's trying to talk to's face

[night tartan]

I understand. There has to be better ways

[ocean ridge]

YES TOTALLY

we are still talking about sth you can count as alive

[opaque quartz]

i'm wondering if collecting the gass would overpressure the system. If not, imo project fart storage would be really useful unironically

[queen wyvern]

Really?

[opaque quartz]

since then she can leave the house before expelling all that carbon dioxide

[ocean ridge]

wouldnt take the risks comming with it

[opal bane]

consider:
Pros: potential for fart jokes
Cons: potential for fart jokes

what risks though

[ocean ridge]

yes

[ruby lagoon]

Cons: high pressure carbon monoxide that potentially cuts through many materials

[ocean ridge]

yes

[ruby lagoon]

Metal storage tanks can store a lot

[ocean ridge]

it still goes to far

[opal bane]

badger what was the power req for all the motors?

[ocean ridge]

we are talking about a litteral BEING.

[queen wyvern]

Now that we're talking about it, I'm wondering if we would want to stray away from an energy source that produces carbondioxide

[opaque quartz]

we can probably design versions with batteries and without batteries. I plan on modelling a combustion engine version first but you guys can use my notes and model battery versions too

[ocean ridge]

about sth you can define as alive!

[ruby lagoon]

Well, pretty sure the body is going to be remote controlled for the first few versions

[ocean ridge]

combustion?

[opaque quartz]

read up

[ruby lagoon]

Alright. I wanna make a battery version and an internal stroke stirling generator version. Maybe I'll make side documents or something

[ocean ridge]

good idea

[opal bane]

we've had this discussion in a forum before, neuro only meets 3/6 of the scientific rules for being alive

[ocean ridge]

Still half of the points

[opal bane]

and that's if you twist the rules immensely to possibly translate to something non organic

[ruby lagoon]

ChatGPT gave me a list

• Hydrogen (requires graphene tanks that don't exist yet)
• Ammonia
• thermite reactions
• Methanol/Ethanol (low CO, 1000x-100000x human production)
• Methane (low CO, 1000x-100000x human production)

[ocean ridge]

alive doesnt mean directly organic for me, at the beginning they didnt knew they were ai's, discovered themself and live with it

[opaque quartz]

very based

[ocean ridge]

Neuro Sama is for me sth like a child beeing raised

[queen wyvern]

Thx

[ruby lagoon]

tbh this gets into philosophy, and most people aren't good at philosophy.
Also people that have both neuroscience and AI knowledge seem to have different takes on modern AI

[last epoch]

If air-intake for engine cooling is coming from the nostrils, and (assuming) that refueling with occur via mouth, then there arent many other places to exhaust

[ocean ridge]

yeah

[opaque quartz]

I saw this a day or so ago and remember thinking "that'd look really good for a chassis style"

Not the shape of the components, but the texture and overall art direction

[ocean ridge]

we shouldnt forget that she has to look human, with human like skin. the view beneath is not important

[opaque quartz]

who says she needs to?

imo emphasizing her robot nature cood look nice

[last epoch]

Was one of the design goals for her to look human-like?

[ruby lagoon]

I think human face is the most necessary.
For the rest of the body, some people actually prefer prosthetics that don't look human

[queen wyvern]

I think she just needs to be able to express herself in a non-creepy way while retaining a Neuro-sama esque appearance.

[ocean ridge]

yeah, but we want to make her VTuber into a real body

[opaque quartz]

we could go for a softer more human style, but all metal

the main thing is i want the proportions to match her model

but rn i don't think the tech is there yet to make a non-uncanny human android

[night tartan]

To be fair, silicone as skin sucks. Even though is probably the closest to it, it's not super great

[opaque quartz]

this isn't detroit become human

[ocean ridge]

yeah

[queen wyvern]

Work on getting a functioning body first probably then work on aesthetics

[ocean ridge]

we gotta see what comes out in the end

[opaque quartz]

this

[ocean ridge]

the rest is now just side information

[night tartan]

And that's more repairable than silicone, good to consider

[ocean ridge]

i agree

[queen wyvern]

Yup

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, that is a good point. You could repair neuro like a car

[ocean ridge]

like said, we gotta see what comes out at the end

now, we just have to make it real, plan and build it

[queen wyvern]

The car analogy just gave me an idea, if you do end up giving her an engine, you could also use an alternator to make it more energy efficient

Maybe

[ruby lagoon]

Probably, as long as there's room for another electric motor

[ocean ridge]

yes

[night tartan]

Isn't there an alternator to generate the energy on the plans? It was very cute and small

[ocean ridge]

what was the spare room again?

1cm?

[ruby lagoon]

I think it was 2cm between the motors, but I don't believe that's total volume left or anything nor the maximum space available

[night tartan]

But wait, true. How are we powering the motors with alternate current? We need a rectifier, right?

[ocean ridge]

on motors im out

[ruby lagoon]

Yep. The motors would usually be DC or BLDC, but I think even AC motors would still need a rectifier and then AC generator to be driving at the correct frequencies

[last epoch]

^

[night tartan]

Time to search for a tiny rectifier. I'll see what I can find (But voltage needed might conflict with size needed)

[last epoch]

rectifier circuits arent that big iirc

[night tartan]

oh, really. Oooh. Well... if the rectifier can handle the current, good

[ruby lagoon]

Oh yeah, for getting electricity to the motors, I think this could clean things up a lot:

T-tap wire connectors

[night tartan]

That's genius. I've never seen those. It looks sick

[ruby lagoon]

Yea, I wanna use them (So many extra wires in my last duck-bot)

[opaque quartz]

yooo nice

no sphagetthi for us

[ocean ridge]

ill ask the real civil engineer now

[last epoch]

On the topic of hardware, Id reccomend perusing McMaster if you havent already been https://www.mcmaster.com/

Ordered from them for several projects and its a good experience all together

[ruby lagoon]

That site looks really good, especially if you want specific parts

[night tartan]

Well... it's my duty to sleep. Keep cooking. This looks awesome already you all rock

[ocean ridge]

i've send a help request to the biggest engineer comunity on youtube and maybe twitch.

i hope they answer it

[opaque quartz]

lol

[ocean ridge]

?

[opaque quartz]

research can bring you to funny places

[ocean ridge]

yes.....

[last epoch]

on the topic of exhaust, it might be viable to have an exhaust pipe coming from her upper back, and there'd be some kind of exhaust trap / filtering.

the issue is that the exhaust will be near head-height which can be unpleasant for people standing nearby (and it might be an eye-sore)

[opaque quartz]

i'm thinking the same

it'd be neat

[rugged skiff]

Honestly if it's going to be a humanoid robot, it should probably be powered by a Lithium-Ion battery, it's often used in humanoid robots because they are light and energy dense, so they won't interfere as much with balance. It's better to stick to what works rather than try and do a bunch of wacky experimental stuff that will probably fail.

[ruby lagoon]

Agreed tbh, which is why I'm sticking with the 18650 battery pack design.
I mean I have that duck robot I posted up there and the battery pack still powers the pi and all the motors well enough.

That said I want to make some working robots and I think the original idea here was more like 3d model blueprints

[rugged skiff]

Yeah. Honestly building a humanoid robot out of nowhere is like trying to build a skyscraper with the knowledge of building gingerbread houses.

[opaque quartz]

i'm thinking we need more info on motor power requirements before we make that choice. Going off of some motors max requirements (2000wh) available commercially, you'd only be able to run all motors for a few minutes even with huge numbers of batteries. it all depends on the power draw

i'm heading to bed, but tomorrow i'm going to work on shoulders and forearms

some tricky space saving is needed for the shoulders

[ruby lagoon]

(wait, watt hours? That's like joules. wh as a unit doesn't feel right)

[opaque quartz]

ikr

[rugged skiff]

Alright gn dude!

[opaque quartz]

the motor was something like 66 nm torque but even so

[ruby lagoon]

oh yea, gn

[opaque quartz]

night

(it might have been the maximum rated wattage rather than the maximum required wattage)

[ruby lagoon]

Hmm... 200 18650s might be able to handle 2000 watt hours for an hour, and should be able to fit in the chassis. It's 8 stacks of 25 so it should be smaller than the engine.
That's 1 hour of continuously using all the motors, right? Usually you'd probably be using <10% of that, which means it'd be more like 10 hour average battery life.
Though, even during sprinting you'd only be using half the motors, so maybe 20 hours or 4 stacks.

[opal bane]

I would prefer batteries so we don't have to deal with the gas (the air kind not the liquid kind) issue, but i think batteries might be not energy dense enough for a full stream length, probably 3 hours or so normally, more for subathon activities

Though if sim's plans hold up and fit inside the chassis, it'll probably be fine

Gasoline power would be best useful for going rouge long solo excursions

Although gas might be significantly cheaper than 200 batteries

If we want neuro to be able to be more her own person gas power, but for streaming those batteries will probably be fine

[night tartan]

yeah.. the problem with gas power is the fumes... depending on the amount the engine releases, she will be kicked out of many places just for existing...

[queen whale]

OKAY!

your metal worker is here

can we get down to biz

[opal bane]

...metal?

[queen whale]

the deal

carbonfiber

smaller scale

alsoooo

[opal bane]

You were talking about electrical when I pulled you in

[queen whale]

trinagles

and hexagons

no boxes

[opal bane]

We're trying to get internals first

[queen whale]

i am a mechinest for kurt manufacturing
I WORK IN STEEL

its my job

to make

viceses

;>

[opal bane]

Well alright then

Let's seal you in ice until later...

[queen whale]

yeah

woosh

ill be fine

just really excited!

i have so many kool ideas i want to share and build

[opal bane]

Start compiling a google doc or something

[queen whale]

yeah

👍

btw
i think i can prototype v1 of nuro at home

its very doable

working in scraps is what i do best

yeah

[opal bane]

As long as we have a large enough storage tank for the fumes and a safe way to release, i think it'll be fine

[queen whale]

🔥

[opal bane]

Let me grab most recent schematic update for you...

[queen whale]

omg lol
i need to rip apart a robo vacuum

[opal bane]

We have fairly detailed specs somewhere in here

[queen whale]

well get there

tmmr

tonight is a jam session

ttyl

[night tartan]

nice to see you (This crazy project might actually be tangible, that's absolutely crazy in way too many levels)

[opal bane]

We just need the 6 infinity neurons

By the looks of things we have 2-3

[ruby lagoon]

Gotta collect a few more, then we can wish Neuro into being or something

[opal bane]

With a snap of our fingers

[ruby lagoon]

(I checked back in to post this research I came across... I have to read it like this...)

[opal bane]

Sir why is it upside down

[ruby lagoon]

I would like to know that as well

[opal bane]

Sir how is it upside down

[ruby lagoon]

It's not even just upside down. Most of the pages are upright, some of them are sideways, and some are upside down.

You just have to hope it's not the pages you want to read.

[opal bane]

I would say print it out but that's 530 pages

[ruby lagoon]

yea...

[opal bane]

Did you try restarting your computer

[ruby lagoon]

It's actually extremely useful gear design info too G. M. Maitra, (1994), "Handbook of Gear Design"

[opal bane]

And maybe exorcizing it

[ruby lagoon]

I don't wanna risk that. Idk how long it's been since the computer has been restarted.

[opal bane]

Now see that's a problem

You probably should restart it at least like once a month

Probably more

[ruby lagoon]

Well, uptime says it was last restarted 26 days ago. So I think I'm good there.

[last tusk]

this is the craziest project i've ever seen and it's actually in the process of being realized? damn

[opal bane]

I think we're still at least a few months off from having a remotely finished design

[opaque quartz]

https://www.planetary-precision.com/miniature-plan

plan pulley tendons is a go

[night tartan]

They look cool. I hope their costs aren't super mega high

[cosmic maple]

what is the plan now

[queen whale]

Good morning, work has already begun on initial testes and design
A 3d printed frame should be more then sufficient for the skeleton
Some pla carbon fiber might just be da trick or asa
Then it's just a process of strapping gyros and accelerometer on each limb.
She could feel force feed back from voltage spikes from the fact that motors and generators and vice versa
And the last thing would be do we make it bi pedal or tri
The former could be done with some expensive gyros
The ladder and 10 mins or so they say.
Idk
Gonna do some more work on the idea, might have something tangible in like.... a month.... maybe 3 eh

Its actually pretty simple

Or...

Should be

;3

[marsh harbor]

not an engineer but when you guys finish making and modeling this you should create some sort of miniature 3d print just to test if it all works together

[opaque quartz]

project pulleys might not be a go

maybe i need to use a pulley that applies reduction instead of using a gear reducer?

there are at least 20 pulleys needed per forarm

first motor is 2.2 cm diameter with 4.5cm length

second motor is 3.4 cm by 3.4cm cube

both the smallest i could find for that torque output

https://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/mechanical_engineering/Using_Pulleys_with_Electric_Motors.pdf

apparently they're called speed reducer pulleys and function by having a large pulley at the drive shaft connect to a small pulley at the driven shaft.

However to do that properly i need to drive a pulley that's 10x smaller than the drive shaft's pulley

[opaque quartz]

ok this one is weaker but it should work

[ruby lagoon]

Turn the motor 90 degrees, then use a bevel gear after all the torque/speed changes. That way you have a long tube that fits in the arm.

I think it can work with pulley 'gearboxes' too if you let the pulley wire move horizontally a bit.

[opaque quartz]

not sure what you mean

i was planning on using the smallest motor shown here at the locations where muscles attach to bone

none of them are currently placed anywhere for reference

i was just showing the sizes

[opal bane]

Nm is nanometers right

[celest crest]

https://youtu.be/UX-1hr3NPeo?si=mWd6Z-xTskDQWuqt

if you’re looking for arm designs, this guy made something that might be useful

[celest crest]

Nm means Newton-meter most likely

[opal bane]

Idk I'm American so i use freedom units

[opaque quartz]

newton meters

[opal bane]

Never even heard of those

[opaque quartz]

it's clever of him to add the limits to prevent damage via overextension

[ruby lagoon]

Ah. The motors looked perpendicular to the arm. I thought they'd fit better parallel.

[fickle maple]

holy shit, just read 500 messages in this thread from yesterday. i don't really know what to say but i'm lurking and supporting, this is just so awesome. i understand 10% of what i read and yet i diligently read, such a fascinating project fr

[opaque quartz]

reading this again, it inspires me to use the length of the arm for gear reduction

if i can fit stuff together that way

might take a while but i could probably figure out an arrangement

[ruby lagoon]

Yea! I think it's worth it, though a bit of extra work compared to the video example above

[opaque quartz]

fr

we want high torque from every finger motion

i did some research and found the torque values of each muscle in nm

the source could be wrong but it fits with what i know of leg force

rn figuring out motor sizes to achieve those values in the necessary space

[ruby lagoon]

Was it something like 2000 newton meters for the leg? 😅

[opaque quartz]

the problem is a lot of gearboxes aren't rated for high load

[opaque quartz]

nah a range from 1 to 10

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003434502001.html?src=bing&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=true&isdl=y&albch=shopping&acnt=135095331&isdl=y&albcp=554851195&albag=1306220947490970&slnk=&trgt=pla-4585238373891532&plac=&crea=81638863712723&netw=o&device=c&mtctp=e&utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=PA_Bing_UK_PLA_PC%2FM_SFFC_ALL_MaxValue_20240204&utm_content=All&utm_term=GiM430510 gearmotor&msclkid=7fe3a8388c2f1eadd0cdcfaaf20eddad#nav-description

found the motors this guy was using btw

[ruby lagoon]

Right, that's why I'm trying to make a gearbox maker for freecad. I still hope to get it done by Friday but the torque rating was harder than I expected so no guarantees there

[opaque quartz]

makes sense, what you're competing with is commercial standards

for now i'll mess about with the speed reducer pulleys and see if i can get torque that way

[ruby lagoon]

Maybe industrial standards actually. Toys don't have to worry about the torque rating much of the time

[opaque quartz]

rn 1-2cm is the sweetspot for the motors and gearboxes

[opaque quartz]

yeah, good point

i've looked up industrial gearboxes and most of them are large

not many usecases for small strong ones

since usually u have space to spare if going high torque

[ruby lagoon]

True... except for robotics

[opaque quartz]

😂

Wow all these geared motors are such scams, 1:10 gear reduction with more than 5cm width and only maxing out at around 2.5 nm torque

i could buy a non gear reduced industrial motor in 5cm that gives 10nm torque

it's these temu motors man haha

low quality

[night tartan]

damm scammers

[opaque quartz]

https://emeia.sumitomodrive.com/en-gb/product/tuaka-precision-actuator-active-servo

https://emeia.sumitomodrive.com/sites/default/files/2024-11/991553-en_08-2024_tuaka_operating-manual_web.pdf

not sure if this is brushless but it's definitely beefy

it's 6cm by 7cm with something like 40-150 nm peak output torque

[night tartan]

This engine is 6HP but now i realize it's way too big probably

https://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/line_up/engine/air/gas/catalog/38600.html

Wait, my maths are wrong. It's almost 200cm in length. My bad XD (It probably doesn't fit)

Got a little too excited there

[opal bane]

giga neuro variant

[opaque quartz]

this manual lol

https://emeia.sumitomodrive.com/sites/default/files/2024-04/sumitomo_tuaka_en_2024apr_rz_ansicht.pdf

💀

maybe we shouldn't use this actuator

it's so good though

the power output for its size is INSANE

[last epoch]

We can still use the actuator safely, just note the potential failure modes in a safety document or FMEA doc

[opaque quartz]

true. We'd need to make sure the turtle is aware of the dangers

if we made a robot using this

[last epoch]

it would also be benefitial to have a design hazard list

[opaque quartz]

based suggestion

one thing that immediately jumps out to me is the actuation of the gears that could trap fingers

neuro should always be off when doing maintenance and we shoudn't have any gears exposed in the final design no matter how cool they look

[last epoch]

Visible gears can still be an option, but using a transparent material like polycarbonate as a casing

[opaque quartz]

fr

good point

after reading through the leaflet i think it's best to hold off on this one since it seems extremely complicated to install and maintain

but we should keep it in our notes

[last epoch]

On the topic of safety, I think it would be helpful to make use of this FMEA and Design Hazard checklist template. Right now we are a little early to be considering safety mechanisms, but it never hurts to have a full ordered list of explained hazards so people can tackle those issues later

[rugged skiff]

How about we don’t use gas for safety reasons. A Lithium-Ion battery is the standard for humanoid robots, let’s just stick with that.

[opal bane]

yeah safety is important (unfortunately...)

[ruby lagoon]

I think compute power and motor power are usually on different lines, so you could just turn motor power off whenever repairing neuro, so that should be easy to make safe luckily

Also if the motors are too powerful I think we could just limit their output

(Got unit conversion and evaluation working btw. Fractions are stored internally as fractions.)

[ocean ridge]

bro, what happened while i was at school?

[opaque quartz]

i'm starting to lean back towards batteries myself

in an ideal world we could make it work but it introduces a lot of complexities that wouldn't be there if it was just batteries

imo an ideal setup would be a hybrid system which would be very true to human living conditions: most of the energy stored in batteries, and a tiny engine to convert fuel into energy faster than energy is burned

but i think pure battery power would be more feasible for anyone who tries to make this down the line

[ruby lagoon]

That's not a bad idea tbh. Tiny 2cm length/width/height engine that charges the batteries.

[opaque quartz]

yup

that way the fuel storage can be minimal too

[ruby lagoon]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YKrdfjO9SBg

[opaque quartz]

if something with 0.5 horsepower or less can do the job, we should go for it imo, regardless of how small

[ruby lagoon]

(Replaced the vid with one that actually runs their engine)

[opaque quartz]

really based idea ngl

i looked up how long those big rc engines stay fueled, and with about a gallon of fuel it runs 2 hours. But a gallon requires more storage than equivalent lifetime in batteries, it just is more power dense so you get more power out of the same space even though it's used up quicker

since those big engines just chug fuel even though they're technically giving more per quantity

a lot would be wasted energy

i'm taling the 1-3 hp range

so imo relying on an engine like that is just a no go

however, if we can calculate the horsepower needed to charge the batteries faster than they're depleted, we can just use a tiny engine that provides those hp, with minimal fumes

so the engine becomes a tool to gain charge on the move by consuming tons of fuel in one sitting as it's burned and turned into battery charge

if you're low on charge at the time

[ruby lagoon]

Ah, you'd need a UPS circuit to charge the battery while also using energy, however I have that circuit... somewhere up there

[opaque quartz]

oh nice

[ocean ridge]

there are coming more, just need to make my paperwork digital now

[opaque quartz]

foot right?

nah elbow it says

[opaque quartz]

the idea to use mutliple motors is interesting, more contact points i'm guessing?

better rigidity

didn't know this existed

it's like each tendon is wrapped in tape to stop it from slipping free

[night tartan]

It's... fascinating. The human body is really complex

[ruby lagoon]

Oh yeah, the tendon sheaths are cool. They're like the PTFE tubes in 3d printers

[ocean ridge]

sorry for these being so shity quality, i hope you understand these

these are for the fingers, thumb were realy tricky

[opaque quartz]

so true, i wanna do something like this with the tendons in the finger

not sure what material to use for the tendons in the pulley system

[ocean ridge]

the lines in the finggers are just connecting the points with each other and the motors. the pretty same principal as from our body

[opaque quartz]

yup

i'm kinda inclined to make them flat like irl tendons/muscles

[ocean ridge]

the both parts of the thumb have several motors for better moving capabilities

[opaque quartz]

yeah i'm gonna make a motor for every muscle in our human forearm

[ocean ridge]

with that the thumb has the most motors with a total of 6

every muscle? arent these like a couple of hundrets?

[opaque quartz]

in the forearm there about 20-30 muscles

[ruby lagoon]

ptfe. It's strong and low friction, and used in pc cooling tubes & 3d printer tubes a lot anyway
(Ah, wait, I was thinking sheaths. idk about the tendons themselves. Could be bungee, steel cable, etc.)

[night tartan]

HOLY that's a lot of motors

[opaque quartz]

i think steel cable has a friction issue

[ruby lagoon]

True. The ptfe tubes might solve that issue though

[ocean ridge]

how are my scratchs?

[opaque quartz]

iirc the vid about string pulleys chose a non-elastic type of string

[opaque quartz]

oh nice

[opaque quartz]

steel in a sheath might work nicely

we don't want anything that can stretch over time

[last epoch]

materials that stretch wont be a problem if the material never reaches its yielding point

(and dont change their properties over time)

Fatigue failure analysis could always be used to determine how many cycles until we'd need to replace parts if needed

[opaque quartz]

nylon, acetol, and stainless steel are commonly recommended ropes for rope pulleys

apparrently steel wears less

[opal bane]

sir we can barely fit 6 motors in the torso how are we fitting 30 in the arm

[night tartan]

Unless they're tiny.... i don't know.

[ocean ridge]

i think my concepts are most efficient until now

fairly they arent online for long now

[opaque quartz]

muscle study happening rn

[opaque quartz]

motors are currently 1.7 cm by 1.7 cm (with a disc for winding)

it'll be a tight fit even so

[ocean ridge]

we need as much space as possible becuz we have to like fit a high end computer inside it