desktop neurons

[mystic pollen]

[edgy siren]

[odd atlas]

Is the logging fixed by the way?

[edgy siren]

i'm working on it

[odd atlas]

Ok cool, you should probably make a new test version once you have fixed the logging so in case it crashes, there's actually something better than whatever's in the console

I had a freeze at one point but I lost the error and all the info about the crash since I accidentally closed the CMD window and the log hadn't picked up on anything related to the freeze

[odd atlas]

Stealing the cursor is not possible. (can't find who asked for it)

[odd atlas]

The point where the mouse is detected relative to the shimejis can get really wrong. I just made an Eviling run away from the mouse, since it thought the mouse was on the other side from where it actually was

[odd atlas]

I'm actaully impressed by how in a situation where the GPU's VRAM is full and literally everything else is running at 5 FPS, the Neurolings can still keep their full framrate.

[kind adder]

g

[odd atlas]

Interestingly there seems to be two points on the taskbar that attract a lot of them, is that hardcoded into the program or set somewhere in the configurations of the Neurolings?

[neat dagger]

Idk how you can work with these things, it looks really intrusive if you have that many

[odd atlas]

I'm used to having them there, so I don't mind them running around

This is what the whole screen looks like

[odd atlas]

Transparency doesn't seem to work near screen borders or on my secondary display

[neat dagger]

I... Genuinely think that you are the type of person to like bezels

[odd atlas]

What even are those?

[odd atlas]

For some reason when running on Java 11, the application really hates staying on the front

[odd atlas]

Would be cool to get a new test version at some point

[odd atlas]

Any updates on the state of this available?

[fast ravine]

hey all, just now learned of this, but how can I get them to hug

[wooden field]

First you have to set evil's behaviour to ask for hugs, then set neuro's behaviour to hug evil

@fast ravine

[fast ravine]

I dont see a hug option

[wooden field]

That's really weird

Here's an update to the shimejis and the one I'm using rn #1194606299745366026 message

[fast ravine]

do you use the collection only?

the collection exe only summons halloween neuro for me

[wooden field]

Weird, for me it summons all five

[fast ravine]

whaaatt

both the jar file and the exe just summon holloween neuro. Running it multiple times just makes more of the same

[wooden field]

Check the settings file

Think it should look something like this

[fast ravine]

THANK YOU SO MUCHHHH

I will never full screen my windows again so neurons and live on top of the browser

appreciate the tech support rytsty!

And thank you Paccha!

[wooden field]

Also if you want your neurons to multiply over time set breeding to true

[fast ravine]

i set throwing to true and evil threw a folder. Now I cant find it lmao

I can select it in the alt tab menue, its still open, but it isnt visible when I pick it lmaoo

Hilarious but probably gonna be a bit inconvient. Guess thats why its disabled by default

[molten swallow]

You can get it back by right clicking on the neurolings icon in the system tray and clicking restore windows

[fast ravine]

ohhh, so thats what the restore windows thing does. I saw it when I was trying to get them to hug but i didnt do anything so forgot about it

[molten swallow]

plus you can access the allowed behaviours/settings right on the menu itself without having to edit the settings file

[odd atlas]

The release jar (the exe just runs the jar) spawning only the Weuron is because the release build has a config with only the Weuron enabled

[supple sigil]

one can hope i wont forget to enable say default sets once the new version is ready to be released

one can also hope i'll get one soon

[odd atlas]

What's the status with that by the way? Haven't heard anything in a while

[supple sigil]

last commit

i personally do work on wevil's sprites by snail speed tho

i made like 9 sprites out of 50+ not including the animation i made for her ages ago

[odd atlas]

So not much happening I guess

I was hoping I could get a new build with functional logging soon in case it freezes again

[fast ravine]

played bg3 for a couple hours yesterday with the neuros running around and no lag shockingly. Have it set up to auto start on power up. Its great, thank you again!

Glad to hear its still being worked on, cant wait for the update!

[fast ravine]

Evil was asking for a hug and neuro just ran past her!!!

I have seen this happen multiple times now!

So cruel!!!

Please fix, my heart cant take it anymore.

[molten swallow]

The speed at which Neuro is running may indicate whether or not she'll hug Evil; she runs faster when about to hug Evil unless she's going after your cursor

[odd atlas]

I don't think there's a difference in speed in this specific version, you can't tell the difference between a normal running animation and a going to hug animation until the hug action is started

[supple sigil]

there is, in fact, a difference in speed. same speed as for running for a hug is set only to chasing a mouse i think, most of the time they run slower

[odd atlas]

Huh, I guess that is the case. I only now noticed that by checking it, having the same animation fooled me I guess

[supple sigil]

its a bit different cuz the framerate is slightly faster for higher speed, but i can see why its hard to notice at first

[odd atlas]

Yeah, a bunch of the things here I can't notice without someone mentioning there's a difference, mostly things that have the same animations

[fast ravine]

I THOUGHT EVIL WAS SITTING ON NEUROS HEAD LMAO

[odd atlas]

I guess it does kinda look like that, even though Evil is clearly just climbing on the wall there

[mortal tendon]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/980938743185834105/1221521814786674820/caption.gif

[odd atlas]

Saved locally (also literally me chatting with a lot of them around (currently reduced amount to reduce CPU load))

[odd atlas]

In case anyone wants it, I packaged the latest test version, including the Neurolings stuff from the latest version of those and a Java 11 runtime, as well as a "Neurolings.bat" start script, so installing and running would be more convenient for testers

[mortal tendon]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/980938743185834105/1221553801220198430/caption.gif

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/980938743185834105/1221552310602436628/caption.gif

I'm having fun with the little goobers

[mystic pollen]

[odd atlas]

Drop off the display

[odd atlas]

Dragging around at high speed

Both fun features

[molten swallow]

neurolings just chilling outside the chaos

[odd atlas]

Neurolings just being chaotic outside Neurolings just chilling outside the chaos

Let's see if we get Neurolingsception (I think that's the right term)

[mortal tendon]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/980938743185834105/1221781503902486708/caption.gif

[odd atlas]

I assume you used "follow cursor" for that, probably twice to also get them into position

[mortal tendon]

shhh

don't spill my secrets

[odd atlas]

Anyone that knows the application's featureset can figure it out

Anyway, I'll just keep saving your gifs, since they're interesting

[fast ravine]

damn, you guys have that many neuros? Does it get laggy?

I got neuro and evil and I've been able to game and work on my PC with no issues

[odd atlas]

It doesn't go laggy for me at all, but that might be due to my extremely high specs

[molten swallow]

Neurolings ju- wait Evil, WHAT ARE YOU DOING???

[edgy siren]

sorry for not being active with this recently; i have college work

[odd atlas]

Neurolings just packed under the chaos

[odd atlas]

It's ok, everyone deals with things like that sometimes, so it's completely fine. Do things at your pace, we don't want to cause you any major issues

[edgy siren]

thanks

[grim abyss]

Only minor issues lmao

jkjk

[edgy siren]

[grim abyss]

I'll just mention that I really want to get back to this, but bipolar sucks and I can't get motivated to do much of anything. Once I feel like I can do shit, I'll keep working on the Rust renderer, but I have no idea when that would be. Maybe days, maybe weeks, maybe months.

[odd atlas]

You should return to it whenever you feel like it, don't rush things like that if you don't feel motivated. I only do things when I feel like it

[grim abyss]

Well, the problem is that I need to figure out how to do stuff even when I'm not super motivated, but I appreciate the sentiment

[odd atlas]

When I don't feel like doing something for a long time or am starting something, I usually start doing it in small bits at first until I get more motivated. I'm currently slowly getting further into the Kotlin stuff, since I'm gonna make the software part for Neuro TCG

[molten swallow]

Happy Birthday Evil!
Evil finally has some guests over during her birthday party, in the form of nested Neurolings...

and Neuro

[odd atlas]

Neuron decided to stand next to the nested Neurolings coming to Evil's birthday

I wonder how long and how deep this will go on

If I can even read this part by the end, clearly not far enough

[odd atlas]

By the way, in case nobody noticed, the Neuron there is standing on air interms of window positions. Who can guess how I did it? (it's not using any major bug)

[mystic pollen]

Hiding the bottom bar

[odd atlas]

Nope, she's not on the taskbar

[mystic pollen]

[odd atlas]

You probably can't figure it out if you don't have very deep knowledge of what the application considers a window

Would you like to try guessing again?

[mystic pollen]

Nope let the other guess I guess

[odd atlas]

If nobody manages to guess it by the time the next layer of nested Neurolings is released, I'll reveal the highly secret trick to get a screenshot of a Neuron standing on nothing

[slow pike]

I made transformation

[odd atlas]

Looks pretty cool

[mystic pollen]

[molten swallow]

Meanwhile, Evil proliferates via mitosis once she finds out a floating Neuro has joined her birthday party

Honestly I want to see other people contribute to this nested Neurolings gimmick other than just Superbox and I

[mortal tendon]

Evil celebrates the nested Neurolings all alone

[odd atlas]

The trick of creating a floating Neuron is really easy, just drag a link or other movable text around, the shimejis will stand on it, as if it was a window. Sometimes it won't even render in the screenshot.
This explanation was provided by the Neurons standing on text

[molten swallow]

I see
It still rendered oh what the hey
(plus I wonder if the original base image is even recognizable anymore lol)

[odd atlas]

This time the Neurolings brought a more non-volatile platform: their own instance of CMD used to start and run the application

[molten swallow]

Mobile Neurolings hit different

[odd atlas]

Oh cool, Neurolings on mobile

The Weuron decided to jump off the text this time

[molten swallow]

oof

[fast ravine]

wait, how do you get em to run on mobile?

[molten swallow]

I'd refer to these posts
#1172425698548400138 message
#1172425698548400138 message
#1174291909066375199 message

[odd atlas]

Or just use the shimeji apk with an imageset from the desktop version

[fast ravine]

Thank you so much!!! It's so cute!

[odd atlas]

Fun fact: the mobile imagesets are basically unmodified from the desktop versions included with the desktop version of the Neurolings

[molten swallow]

yw

At this point the base image (the volume gif that Toast3 made) is nonexistent

[odd atlas]

Ever wondered how much CPU and RAM the Neurolings use? Well here's the answer

[mortal tendon]

no more volume

[molten swallow]

too soon

[odd atlas]

Weuron splitting in this one

[molten swallow]

Now both Weurons want to jump through the tunnel

[native sigil]

ty<3

[odd atlas]

This one's trying to fall into there

[fast ravine]

every time I see evil waiting for a hug I pull neuro from whatever wall she is climbing and make her hug evil

[odd atlas]

If you want a higher chance of Eviling getting hugged automatically, you can make more Neurons exist

[fast ravine]

thats a genius idea!

[molten swallow]

SnowBlind was probably on the same boat I'm on, having only Neuro and Evil by themselves with cloning disabled
It's only natural to have both sisters frolicking about about

[fast ravine]

pretty much! in my mind neuro and evil relax in my PC when they arent streaming
No dupes, just to sisters hanging out

i also catch the neuros when they fall lol

but there is no way to let them land on the floor without the falling animation. kept dropping them as close to the ground as I can, but they still fall flat. unfort

[molten swallow]

fyi I am using one of the test versions so there are a few differences compared to the release
dunno if I should mention how it also has the evil hugging neuro behaviour (the other way round) which the release currently doesn't have, so I'm spoiled in such a way

[chilly zephyr]

You have unlocked new role

[molten swallow]

[fast ravine]

danggg! cant wait for that!

[molten swallow]

ofc there are other things being added but even testers cannot be spoiled so much
paccha is still working slowly on Wevil

[odd atlas]

You can scroll up around 3000 messages and download it yourself, it just needs a different runtime. Or you can grab the version I packaged with a Java 11 runtime, it also has the feature (that is this: #1174291909066375199 message )

You can run my package with Neurolings.bat to use the embedded runtime

[molten swallow]

should I really go on a tangent on what paccha posted regarding the new features here?
she's posted them here before but they feel like they should be secret...

[odd atlas]

Which features are you talking about? Paccha is fine with releasing Evil hugging Neuro early, the new shimejis are the ones that are kept internal until release

[molten swallow]

the petting functionality

[odd atlas]

Oh, that one has no released package yet, so it's still internal

[molten swallow]

yeah ik they ain't accessible yet

also abby

[odd atlas]

So you think we shouldn't know about the existence of the features at all?

[molten swallow]

That's not what I mean
I'm prolly just feeling guilty mentioning them fsr

[odd atlas]

If Paccha has told us about them, it should be fine

[molten swallow]

right

[odd atlas]

By the way, which exact jar are you running?

[molten swallow]

this one
#1174291909066375199 message

[odd atlas]

Seems like it's probably the latest, so you shouldn't grab my package

Since that'd just be the same thing

[molten swallow]

yeah I figured you repackaged it

[odd atlas]

Yeah, I just added a runtime and the Neurolings stuff

And a startup batch file

[molten swallow]

mhmm

[odd atlas]

It's basically just a pre-made runnable package for those who don't want to build one themselves

[molten swallow]

Oh yeah I should mention since I am testing this, a couple bugs I have run into with this version include the neuros following the cursor with an odd radius, sometimes seemingly passing by the mouse some distance before sitting and looking
and recently after having it run too long, an exception somehow occurred which lead to the neurons being frozen
also had a couple odd instances of neurons somehow falling through the bottom of the screen before reappearing but idk how to replicate it

[odd atlas]

I've seen all of those

The first one seems like an offset issue for the action, the second one I have no idea about and it's hard to get info about since the current build doesn't do proper logging, the third on is normal behavior for when a shimeji is dropped off-screen, although I don't know if you mean on their own or manually

[molten swallow]

for me it very rarely happens, sometimes happens after a behaviour is performed
dunno what or the circumstances

[odd atlas]

For me they only fall off the screen on their own if changing screens is disabled and they try anyway

[molten swallow]

Now the Weurons want to catch Neuro

[odd atlas]

Evil is looking at them

[hexed coral]

I sometimes thinks about what it'd be like to have them pop out of my screen and become real.

[odd atlas]

Neuroling fell asleep waiting for the next iteration

[molten swallow]

Sorry I'm out of ideas

[odd atlas]

Fun fact: the taskbar here is not tangible to them, they are standing on a bunch of text

[supple sigil]

seemingly barely anyone have seen this but i started working on theese again heres wevil bop

should prolly post that in #1095941852068331560 tho

[buoyant drum]

Those programs probably just generate enough heat and they like to sit on their icons as cats

[odd atlas]

So progress is being made again?

[supple sigil]

yup

currently working on more complex animations cuz they scare me the most

[odd atlas]

Cool, maybe we'll finally get a new version so everyone can play with the Java 11+ build

[supple sigil]

another one done

i thought i had like 2 more animations to go but then i rember... about hug animations

gotta be pain to overpaint on them

[dusty tapir]

[dusty tapir]

is there a chance that u can send without bg?

[odd atlas]

To me it looks like one of the frames there is still Abby

Or maybe it's supposed to be

Not sure, but it lools odd for some reason

[supple sigil]

fuck

why is it stacking bruh

[odd atlas]

Why is it not refreshing?

[supple sigil]

there

[odd atlas]

What was causing it?

[supple sigil]

idk really

its only happening in discord, to add to it

[odd atlas]

It looked like frame refresh was off

[supple sigil]

ok anyway

[supple sigil]

its supposed to be like this cuz its in fact a transfrom anumation

[odd atlas]

Oh, ok. Now it makes sense

I think the part where it loops was making me confused

[supple sigil]

it isnt supposed to loop anyway

[odd atlas]

Yeah, it just looked odd as a looping gif. Cute animation now that I understand it

[dusty tapir]

thx

[odd atlas]

I hope the next update will come included with the Java 11+ build, since the older Java 8 build is terrible in comparison

[supple sigil]

i think its already built in

in repository version

[odd atlas]

Ok, then it's probably gonna be included. That's good

We'll see how many new bugs will also be included with it, unless it's actually all bugfixes

[fast ravine]

[supple sigil]

[mystic pollen]

Dupe animation?

[supple sigil]

[mystic pollen]

[odd atlas]

Is she pushing a clone out of her hat or something?

[supple sigil]

ye

[fast ravine]

will there be more neuro and evil interactions?

Love all the sneak peaks! They look amazing!

[odd atlas]

Ok then, I was asking to make sure, since it's kinda hard to tell

[dusty tapir]

Imagine this British Tutel gonna do smth for April fools day

[supple sigil]

i dont have anything prepared for the release im cooking but im more than happy to get suggestions for the future

[odd atlas]

I'm very much looking forward to seeing how much stuff we'll have by the end

[supple sigil]

not a lot really

[fast ravine]

ahhh sick, can't wait! Don't really have many suggestions, would like more neuro evil interactions if its possible I guess. Hug/hurl evil is prolly my fav move atm

[fast ravine]

Even if its just one it will be nice to see it. Thank you for you hard work!

[supple sigil]

for wevil/weuro hugs im literally drawing over old ones

extreme fun

it got a bit of a janky timing but it'll be fine in the shimeji app

[odd atlas]

Is there gonna be a Weuron and Weviling version of the other hug too?

[supple sigil]

ye mean the other way round? sure

i just started with this one

[odd atlas]

Ok then. The hugs are very cute, so it'll be cool to have more of them

[supple sigil]

so far there are only three

im not sure its like necessary to add more unless i'll feel like it

[odd atlas]

Add whatever you feel like adding, it's your shimejis after all

[supple sigil]

oh well we got no vedal hugs

but its on the list

[odd atlas]

Who's Vedal gonna hug?

[supple sigil]

i kind of thought we already released vedal lol

[supple sigil]

we are still thinking about this part

[odd atlas]

Well, ok then

[odd atlas]

I would've noticed if that was the case

[terse bramble]

Do evil cuz this LMAOOOOOOOOO

[supple sigil]

real

[odd atlas]

That would work on the Neuro rants site

[fast ravine]

V*dal was a different man back when

He's changed now

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1072697081443131476/1163136239046762657/evilcries.gif

[supple sigil]

[odd atlas]

That looks really cute. I think you made that way faster than I was expecting

[hazy star]

This is pretty neat.

[edgy siren]

[odd atlas]

It's extremely odd how wrong the follow cursor offsets can be sometimes

The point at which the shimejis turn around to try to face the cursor can be a really long distance from the actual cursor location

[edgy siren]

i think that has to do with the config for making them trip

i can't check right now but i think it has them run for a bit in one direction initially without turning if they are going to trip

and doesn't if they are not going to trip

[odd atlas]

Well, whatever the cause is, it's wrong pretty much every time, if sometimes not by much

[odd atlas]

I think the offset issue is a thing in the application itself, unless the broken Neuron has tripping functionality, which I doubt since the broken Neuron can't even run

[molten swallow]

Actually now that I think of it, should the newest release with Wevil and Abby hopefully have Broken Neuron finished up (subbing the proper sprites for the Eviling placeholders)?

[odd atlas]

Depends if Paccha wants to do so, would be cool though

[mortal tendon]

a steam notif came up of a friend playing a game and evil instantly jumped onto it and got dragged into the shadow realm

[odd atlas]

I think she should've respawned somewhere by falling back onto the screen

[mortal tendon]

yeah she did, it was just really funny to see

[odd atlas]

That's what happens when an unsuspecting Eviling grabs onto something that won't stay there

[odd atlas]

What's the status of the Linux support and when can it be expected to be similarly good to Windows? I just had a BSoD and now I feel like getting rid of Windows

[edgy siren]

still doing college work

[odd atlas]

Well, I guess that means I'll just wait until you have more information about it or something

[devout lark]

where's the non-witch neurolings

nvm found them

[edgy siren]

it's all the same download as far as i know

and the pins have the download link

[odd atlas]

Just another case of the release version being misconfigured, it only spawns the Weuron by default

[edgy siren]

i think it has the hidden .git folder too

i'm going to try to make the release zip files from now on

[odd atlas]

Ok then, hopefully then they'll only have the stuff that's needed and not be configured to only spawn the latest additions

[devout lark]

Suggestions for interactions with Vedalings:

Neurons:
Speech Bubble: Sometimes a Neuron may interrupt whatever a Vedaling is doing by walking up and saying something, represented by a speech bubble with "[FILTERED]" in it, which startles the Vedaling

Eviling:
Tutel Rum: Eviling puts on a pirate hat, says "KILL THE TURTLE AND PUT HIM IN THE RUM!" and starts chasing a Vedaling, which runs away in panic

[odd atlas]

You should tell that to the person making the Vedaling, which I think is moneka or something like that, not 100% sure

[edgy siren]

it is moneka

[odd atlas]

Ok cool, I remembered correctly

[devout lark]

Question: How come when I use the Neuroling collection, it only summons Wueros?

[devout lark]

how do I fix it

[wooden field]

Did you check your settings file

[devout lark]

where is said settings file

nvm found it

[wooden field]

Check here

[devout lark]

@slow pike look

[edgy siren]

one can also change settings and select neurolings via the neurolings tray icon

[slow pike]

Heh okay thank you for suggestions

[odd atlas]

It's very interesting how well the Neurolings work even under some of the most sub-optimal conditions possible, like under stupidly high system load. These things could probably be the last thing running while everything else crashes

[odd atlas]

I'm getting so good with Kotlin I'm starting to kinda wonder how hard porting this to Kotlin would be

[grim abyss]

Kotlin is JVM based and built to be compatible with Java programs. In other words, Kotlin is built so that you can slowly add to and covert your codebase to Kotlin while parts of it are still written in Java.

[odd atlas]

Well, I do know that Kotlin and Java can be ran in the same file, but I just ported a Python codebase to Kotlin in a couple days, which was pretty interesting. It's much faster and works better now

But I was thinking more like what I did with the Python codebase, which was rewriting it completely from reference

[odd atlas]

I actually even use that interoperability sometimes

Since sometimes the Java stuff works better for some reason

[odd atlas]

By the way, do you want to see the code I wrote when rewriting that one application to Kotlin?

[grim abyss]

Sure. Go ahead and send me a DM

[odd atlas]

Alright then, I'll do that now (I went to sleep so that's why it took so long to respond)

[odd atlas]

I've decided I'll be ditching Windows after some various hardware upgrades due to Windows 11 being bad and 10 losing support, so hopefully by the time do that, the Neurolings will have proper Linux compatibility

[limber bough]

I just tested it and the Neurolings don't really need explicit Linux support. As far as I can tell, the windows version works perfectly under wine. The only weird thing is that the tray icon is in a separate window.

[odd atlas]

There is native Linux support in development, but currently it's quite bad. The Linux compatibility is in the latest test jar

[devout lark]

wait does that issue also happen with some versions of windows or nah

[odd atlas]

I assume it's just from using the Wine compatibility layer

[limber bough]

Yep, probably because gnome doesn't implement tray icons correctly, but wine still wants to show them somehow.

[odd atlas]

There will have to be some way to consistently show tray icons on the final Linux build

Since that is an important feature in the application

But I'll probably be waiting for the Linux native version in case using Wine has some kind of random issues with it

Like if Window interaction doesn't work correctly

[limber bough]

Window interaction works, but only with other wine windows.

[odd atlas]

Then it's not good enough

I want it to fully work

[limber bough]

Also, only found this out later, performance sucks with many neurolings . Most likely because the application, wine and the window manager are all fighting over window control of 20 windows.

[odd atlas]

Yeah, I kinda feel like it needs to be Linux native to work properly

[limber bough]

It doesn't even run right now. I had to patch out tray icons to make it somewhat work. (the native version)

[odd atlas]

Are you trying the release version or the test version?

[limber bough]

The one you sent.

[odd atlas]

Then I assume not every Linux distro works with tray icons, so there will have to be something to check if they're supported and use some other method if they aren't

Last I checked it runs on Ubuntu

[limber bough]

It's just gnome that doesn't like them. I can test if some extension helps.

[odd atlas]

Ok then

[limber bough]

That was easy. "Tray Icons: Reloaded" makes the tray icons work. The Neurolings still look buggy.

[odd atlas]

Yeah, the Linux compatibility is still a work in progress

[limber bough]

Is there a way I can help improve it?

[odd atlas]

Ask The Clown, he's the one doing the development for Linux compatibility I think

You can probably ping him to make sure he sees it or something

But I assume he will let you help with it

[limber bough]

@edgy siren I'd like to help with Linux development. How can I do that?

[odd atlas]

And now you wait

[edgy siren]

https://github.com/DalekCraft2/Shimeji-Desktop
This is the repository for my fork of Shimeji-ee. You can make a PR to this to improve the Linux support.

The Linux stuff is mainly located within the com.group_finity.mascot.x11 package.

I had been testing it on Ubuntu, though I feel like either my VM or Ubuntu itself is kind of buggy whenever I try to test on it.

admittedly, i have not been working on this for a while because i have been hyperfixating on other stuff, so i should probably switch back to this

i stopped just before i finished adding documentation to the XSD schema for the mascots

[odd atlas]

Hopefully the Linux support will be good before I switch to using Linux

[edgy siren]

also i had added a way to render the outlines of hitboxes but it was difficult to get it to work on all platforms plus the windowed version

and i do not know how much it affects performance

so i have been holding off on pushing it to the repository

it does not have a toggle yet either

[odd atlas]

I assume doing arbetrary bitmap rendering to display the hitbox edges would have a pretty big perfornance overhead compared to rendering images

[edgy siren]

an idea what i had but have not yet implemented was to make a cache for images and grab from that instead of loading a new instance of an image every time a mascot XMl file calls for that image

[odd atlas]

That could improve performance, but also increase memory usage, assuming the cache will be in RAM

[edgy siren]

that would probably have some sort of effect on performance

[edgy siren]

i see not how it would increase memory usage when the program will be storing fewer images in total

[odd atlas]

Does it store images in RAM already, but separately for every mascot instance?

[edgy siren]

okay to explain this i need to define some things

[odd atlas]

Ok then

[edgy siren]

a NativeImage (an interface) is essentially a wrapper for an AWT BufferedImage in all of its implementations
a MascotImage (a class) is an object what has a NativeImage as a field, along with some other information like its size and center
an ImagePair (a class) is an object what stores two MascotImages, one being for facing left and another for facing right
there exists a class, ImagePairs, which caches the ImagePair objects in a map, with the keys being the file path of the left-facing image, plus the name of the right-facing image if one is defined
every time an ImagePair is loaded, it always loads the corresponding left- and right-facing images regardless of whether another ImagePair has loaded either of them, which means there are theoretically cases in which no right-facing image is defined and a left-facing image is loaded a second time

[odd atlas]

So they are loaded into RAM but might be loaded separately for each mascot, as I thought?

Each mascot instance

[edgy siren]

every mascot shares the ImagePairs cache

but an image may be loaded a second time if the key in the cache is different

note that i had this idea without reviewing the code so the issue seemed slightly more severe in my head than it does now

does this make sense

[odd atlas]

Kinda I guess

[devout lark]

quick question
does windows automatically have jdk

[edgy siren]

no; it must be installed manually

the minimum required version for this project is JDK 11, but JDK 21, the current LTS, also works

[odd atlas]

JDK 22 is a thing now I think

[edgy siren]

is that so

ah, it is

[odd atlas]

I think I saw someone trying to run Minecraft with it

Too new for Minecraft to handle

I wonder if the Neurolings could

[edgy siren]

depends on what changes were made in JDK 22

i know that the validate() function has been marked for removal, so i need to migrate the project away from using that

er, not validate; what was it again

it was in the Object class

[odd atlas]

Well, JDK 21 is good enough for now if you don't want to immediately make sure it works with JDK 22

[edgy siren]

sorry, i was looking at an instance of the validate() function in my code and got mixed up

ah, finalize()

[devout lark]

would this also fix the issue with it just summoning a new shimeji whenever I click the app icon instead of showing the interface

[odd atlas]

You need to RIGHT-click the tray icon

[edgy siren]

showing the interface re--

yeah

[devout lark]

OH

[edgy siren]

having it create a new one every time it is clicked is kind of a weird feature honestly

the program is riddled with strange decisions, usually caused by the layers of forks

[odd atlas]

I like that feature though

[edgy siren]

my version is a fork of Kilkakon's Shimeji-ee, which is a fork of the Shimeji-ee Group's Shimeji-ee, which is a fork of the original Shimeji by Yuki Yamada of Group Finity

[odd atlas]

That is a lot of forking

[edgy siren]

or just... Group Finity

[edgy siren]

yes

it very much is

[odd atlas]

But if some of the features are useful for some, then they're not useless and should be kept, like clicking the tray icon

[edgy siren]

the tray icon does not even bother me that much relative to the directory structure though

it has been made too lenient in that it accepts files at various different locations with various different names rather than a fixed file location in a specific directory

it can make things messy

and kind of hard to navigate

if i was not concerned with compatibility nor with making drastic changes to the neurolings repository to which everyone would have to adapt, i would change the directory/file structure

[odd atlas]

How about just include a script to automatically convert stuff to the new structuring?

[edgy siren]

compatibility, i said

backward compatibility

if i was to convert stuff to a new file structure, not one mascot would work in older versions

[odd atlas]

I guess that makes sense

[edgy siren]

that is what we call a "breaking change"

[odd atlas]

I guess we can't do that then

When I was rewriting stuff, I wasn't worried about that, since the thing I was rewriting was not released yet

[edgy siren]

that's the magic of not releasing things

that may be a part of why i almost never make releases of my projects

[odd atlas]

It was also a really big change: changing from Python to Kotlin

[edgy siren]

with another reason being that i keep finding little issues what i want to fix

and then we end up with something like this, which has a colossal amount of changes compared to the previous Shimeji-ee version by Kilkakon

[odd atlas]

Well, at least it runs on much newer JDKs

[edgy siren]

not on Java 8, though; i hope he'll be fine with that, considering how outdated it is

[odd atlas]

Yeah, Java 8 is quite old at this point

By the way, did you see the one I packaged with an intergrated Java 11 runtime?

[edgy siren]

i wonder whether i should try to bring up my fork to him and see how he reacts to it, before i try to merge it

[edgy siren]

may i have a link to the message

[odd atlas]

Here it is

It has a batch script to start it

That can of course be replace with an exe with the same functionality

[edgy siren]

or we could have both

[odd atlas]

An exe and a batch to do the same thing?

[edgy siren]

though i'm reluctant to have the entire JDK in the distributable

[edgy siren]

one is customizable, i suppose

[odd atlas]

Well, I don't have a more stripped-down runtime

[odd atlas]

That's true

[odd atlas]

If you find one, I can package that one instead

[edgy siren]

i just don't think we should package the JDK at all

[odd atlas]

Why not?

The size?

I know some other bigger applications that do that

[edgy siren]

that's most of the reason; you did see that you had to send two 7zip archives because they totaled to 160 MB

[odd atlas]

Well, is there a smaller runtime for Java 11?

[edgy siren]

another reason is that it is unnecessary if the user already has java, or if they want to use a different java version

[odd atlas]

Well, I packaged in the runtime to make it effortless to install and use the application

I decently often include a JVM with some applications I want to move onto other machines

Well, I think I need to go to sleep, I should've done that around 3 hours ago, but then I got new stuff from an Evil RVC model, a cover of The MMORPG addict's anthem, which I could not stop listening to

[edgy siren]

[odd atlas]

I hope this is not too critical for this, since I think you said you're using X11

Apparently X11 is being depracated

[edgy siren]

I am aware, but do not know how to use Weyland.

I just copied the X11 support from somewhere.

[odd atlas]

Well, hopefully Robotino can make it work then

Since they seem to know how to do Linux stuff

[devout lark]

btw how's the wevil + abber update going

[odd atlas]

I don't know, Paccha probably does

[devout lark]

I made a thing

@supple sigil
I made a README for the interface

even clarifies that you need to right-click the tray icon instead of left-click

[odd atlas]

Interesting, you basically made instructions on how to operate the application

[devout lark]

well there wasn't a guide to it before so
plus it clarifies how to access it where I initially slipped up

[edgy siren]

oh nice

i've mostly been focusing on documenting only the XSD schema and the Java files so this is much appreciated

[odd atlas]

I found a new feature, interrupting the hurl Evil action immediately hurls Evil

[dusty tapir]

"peak" gameplay

[terse bramble]

spreading democracy with neuro

It is indeed pretty "peak"

what the

[dusty tapir]

new neuro found "pile of neuros"

[odd atlas]

Seems like the window borders are not the actual edges of the game

[terse bramble]

If i wanted it to look good i had to turn off the taskbar :v

It's a hassle so i gave up

[dusty tapir]

we need democracy neuro

[terse bramble]

trueing

[odd atlas]

Just ask someone to draw that, at its core, the application just loads a bunch of image files in set sequences

[dusty tapir]

im trying to do it rn

[odd atlas]

Draw it or ask someone?

[terse bramble]

better release that one day

[dusty tapir]

draw

[odd atlas]

Ok then. Just ask someone like The Clown for help if you can't figure out how to configure the behaviors

[dusty tapir]

Ik how to do it

Ig just a quick sketch

[terse bramble]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1072697081443131476/1225000073461760101/angrier_excited.gif

[chilly zephyr]

You have unlocked new role

[devout lark]

where did you even get those tutel shimejis b/c IIRC the vedalings aren't ready yet

[terse bramble]

They were released here quite a while ago i think

even moneka posted them

[devout lark]

WHERE

[terse bramble]

I can't find it in here but if you want i can just send you the file

[devout lark]

sure

[odd atlas]

I don't think they posted the shimeji files with it

The Vedaling is not released yet

[terse bramble]

I don't remember much anymore man, it was a while ago

I just saw them and downloaded them

[odd atlas]

If you do have it, it's leaked content

[terse bramble]

Good stuff

I'll take it

[odd atlas]

Welp, "oops" whoever uploaded the files

[molten swallow]

iirc moneka sent a compressed file containing the Vedaling graphics and conf for testing purposes
I also cannot find the download but I swear moneka sent a 7z file here but may have removed it later or something
I even have it downloaded

[odd atlas]

I assume that's not the latest version of the files and moneka is the only one with the latest version, or maybe others members of the team like Paccha might also have access

[devout lark]

Well I hope they're happy that another person is beta-testing it

[molten swallow]

The particular Vedaling build is from Feb 8, 2024, so defo not the latest

[devout lark]

I just saw a Neuron sit down near a Vedaling only for the tutel to walk away

[slow pike]

Yep, I deleted it :D

It's surprising that someone downloaded it lol

[odd atlas]

Well, now it's leaked forever

[terse bramble]

It looked like good stuff so i downloaded it

[odd atlas]

I assume I'll be waiting for it to be released fully

[devout lark]

TBH the fact that the tutel falls slower because he's using the cape as a parachute is a nice touch

[dusty tapir]

is it possible to add sound to neuros ?

[mystic pollen]

There's a function for it

But not coded (yet)

[odd atlas]

Correction: Not used yet, the function is from the base shimeji application

[mystic pollen]

Jokes aside

[odd atlas]

So basically that means it should be entirely possible to add sounds to shimejis

[dusty tapir]

Then now time to watch dozens of Neuro and Evil Streams to find perfect phrases and sounds

[odd atlas]

Or just look for them online, I think CJ may have a collection of them

[fiery tree]

If you need the link to CJ's collection of noises it's: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1evSrmFJmGJ4fP9cjnx_FoW4Wgw5E1Owg

[dusty tapir]

i have no idea how to make screen recording found neuros and record them so here u go i added throw sound to neuro and evil

[dusty tapir]

rlly helped

had to redu whole shimeji from zero cuz paccha ones dont support sound

[devout lark]

Vedaling shimeji should have some SFX that objects to being picked up like this one

[odd atlas]

I wonder if there's been any progress on anything like Linux support, although I assume we'll still have to wait

[devout lark]

Ah yes, an animation for Wevil transforming to Abber Demon mode

[devout lark]

@supple sigil sorry about pinging but how's wevil shimeji going

[dusty tapir]

If I’m right he isn’t doing it rn and just doing commissions

[edgy siren]

i am back from my vacation which i forgot to announce

[edgy siren]

i've just been assuming that Robotino, the person who asked how to contribute to Linux support, has been doing it; i don't see anything for it on their GitHub page, though

[odd atlas]

Well, hopefully we get something that works at some point

[edgy siren]

there was a new update for kilkakon's shimeji so i was working on merging that before i left for my vacation

once i've merged it, i should be able to fix the bug in which evil flies in the wrong direction when being hurled if she is facing away from neuro

there was a new feature added by kilkakon which may help

i also showed my fork to kilkakon and he seemed more open to it than i expected so that was a pleasant surprise

[odd atlas]

I would assume someone would approve of porting their entire application to something more modern

I don't think I've found many more new bugs thogh, the closest thing to a bug I can think of is Evil getting hurled immediately if the hurl Evil state is interrupted

[odd atlas]

I hope the Linux stuff will work on whatever distro I decide to use, since I haven't decided on one yet

[odd atlas]

New exception that says something about invalid window handles

[edgy siren]

Oh, God, native stuff.

I'll look at that once I finish merging and testing the new update.

[odd atlas]

That just randomly happened on one startup I think

[odd atlas]

I guess I'll just be waiting for updates. One thing that I can definitely confirm is that the Neurolings works with RD mobile

[odd atlas]

I do wonder if this has been looked into yet

[mellow patrol]

[odd atlas]

Welp, there goes your stream window

[devout lark]

@supple sigil
In light of recent events, I request that the Neuron shimeji gets an additional animation that allows her to turn into the bread!Neuro you drew that one time

[terse bramble]

Desktop neurons delayed till next year

[odd atlas]

Interesting feature idea, no idea if Paccha will do that

[odd atlas]

This one again

[devout lark]

Okay so afaik
Wevil has an animation that transforms into Abby mode
And Abby has an animation that transforms back into Wevil
So in other words the switch occurs via sneeze

[terse bramble]

That's crazy

So cool

[dusty tapir]

juts made bread neuroling using original image and i need to say this

it eats cpu and memory like real neuro

cuz its moving 4k by 4k image and i made like 6 of them

so cpu was 98% full and memory 99%

[edgy siren]

that sounds very funny and i apologize

[dusty tapir]

That was funny

I was thinking why Neurolings stopped showed up so I launched them 5 more times

After windows started showing errors and making noise

Then I realized something wrong and opened task manager

And there it was

Neurolings that take 98% of cpu and 99% of memory

So they just become real Neuro

[grim abyss]

Don't want to promise anything cause I know my track record with this type of stuff, but I'm having some signs of success with meds and getting on Adderall soon, so I might be able to help out. I'm still wanting to implement at least parts of the program in Rust

[edgy siren]

[limber bough]

Sadly, I think reimplementing it completely is the only way to get the X11 backend working reliably. For some reason the Java windowing system doesn't allow moving windows (partially) offscreen on Linux and also they randomly turn black because, I think, both X11 and Java are trying to draw on it. Changing that in the Java version would mean rewriting every backend. Also we will eventually need a wayland backend and java does not appear to have bindings for that.

[odd atlas]

Would that still make it possible to run all the platforms on the same jar?

[odd atlas]

I guess I gotta wait for an answer for a while, although I may have originally misunderstood the thing, I think the idea is to just reimplement the whole application in another language

[limber bough]

Yes, that is the idea I think. If it happens to be rust, it would be cross platform, but still have to be compiled for each one. So no single file, but not everyone has to compile it themselves either. (It would probably reduce binary size as a side effect because not every backend is present for every platform)

[odd atlas]

Well, that would probably work at least then. As long as the thing runs on Linux in time for me to switch to using Linux

[odd atlas]

At this point I have no idea how long it's been since the previous update, I've just been waiting for a while

[odd atlas]

Seems like the last test build might have been like 4 months ago or something

[mellow patrol]

[edgy siren]

don't worry guys i promise i'll get to linux support soon

[odd atlas]

Well, at least there is still plenty of time before I will be switching to Linux

[edgy siren]

i am now getting to linux support again

the tray icon is apparently not supported on ubuntu even though i remember it having worked in the past so that's lovely

i'll focus on the rendering first and then window interactions

[grim abyss]

Just so you know, there are a lot of desktop environments for Linux, which even Ubuntu has a bunch of different flavors for. They might have different ways of handling or differing levels of support for tray icons, so you might want to consider a different approach

[edgy siren]

i'm aware of the many variants of linux, yeah

[grim abyss]

Not distros

Desktop environments

[edgy siren]

oh, yeah, i think i know of those, too

kind of makes me think that something what interacts with the desktop like this would be very difficult to make compatible with a lot of linux environments

and i also don't know how many of the bugs what the linux port has are exclusive to when it is running in a VM

[limber bough]

I can test stuff on hardware if you want.

[edgy siren]

that'd be helpful

[grim abyss]

So, I found this: https://docs.gtk.org/gtk3/class.StatusIcon.html

But it's deprecated

Oh, sure enough

Gnome killed system tray icons

[edgy siren]

yeah i found that mentioned here https://stackoverflow.com/a/50574518

[grim abyss]

I think you're gonna have to come up with something different

[edgy siren]

it also mentions a software to restore them, but it would probably be better to think of an alternative

[grim abyss]

I think your only option would be something like a config program

[edgy siren]

i could also make the config window on-screen at all times, but have it minimized, or something

sorry, not "on-screen"; i just mean opened

[grim abyss]

I would imagine it'd be annoying to have the icon on the taskbar at all times

[edgy siren]

yeah, i suppose it would be

[limber bough]

It could also just be an option when right-clicking any of the shimeji.

[edgy siren]

they have their own popup menus

they are slightly different from the tray icon's popup menu

[limber bough]

Why not have one that opens the config window?

[odd atlas]

That would work, but would also be confusing to users coming from the Windows version

[edgy siren]

The tray icon's popup menu has more than just the config window; there are also other configurable things what are only accessible through the popup, like the Shimeji chooser and the behavior toggles.

Adding all of that to the Shimeji's popup menu would make it messy and bloated.

[limber bough]

If they come from windows, they will have the extension to bring back tray icons installed anyways

[odd atlas]

I assume the idea was to open the main config menu as a separate window by adding one button to the context menu

[grim abyss]

Also, that would remove the possibility of not having any shimejis on screen for a moment

[edgy siren]

(I should note that, in the VM, the Shimejis are incapable of going off-screen, but I suspect it works differently on the genuine firmware.)

[grim abyss]

The only universal solutions I can think of would be either that (which I think would have some serious downsides) or some sort of config program that you can either run when you need it or have it on the taskbar

[edgy siren]

i think the separate config program may be the best option

[odd atlas]

That could also be a limitation of the Linux JVM window manager, but not sure

[edgy siren]

this would mean i would have to create two JAR files, though

or maybe just use the arguments from the main() method

[grim abyss]

Could it possibly check for the existence of another instance of the program running and, if there is, open the config window instead?

Well, I guess always open the config window, but also start the shimeji system if it isn't running already

[odd atlas]

That would work, since the command line is nothing special on Linux

[limber bough]

I don't see why gnome users can't install the extension. Every other desktop has tray icons.

[odd atlas]

Yeah, I heard Gnome just likes to make stuff different

[grim abyss]

I think the real problem is that there isn't a single API to work with all of them

[edgy siren]

I would think the extension uses the same API for compatibility...

[grim abyss]

I don't think it's realistic to make a separate implementation for each desktop environment

[grim abyss]

What extension?

[edgy siren]

oh i see what you mean

[limber bough]

"AppIndicator and KStatusNotifier Support" and "Tray Icons: Reloaded" both do the job.

[edgy siren]

On Ubuntu.

[limber bough]

They just implement KDE's protocol which is most likely also in the XDG spec.

[grim abyss]

But that's just for gnome and plasma then

[limber bough]

No, XDG means "Cross-Desktop Group" which is what every DE should support. (except gnome of course)

[edgy siren]

you say "should support", as if not all of them do

[limber bough]

gnome...

[edgy siren]

Oh.

[grim abyss]

Looking at it now. Isn't that just a spec that each API should include?

[edgy siren]

just to confirm, does every non-gnome DE support XDG

[grim abyss]

Wouldn't that still require us to use a different API for each environment?

[limber bough]

Every non-gnome de should support either the XDG or Freedesktop spec. I don't know which is which but it is one spec.

[grim abyss]

Oh, this might work

https://portland.freedesktop.org/doc/xdg-desktop-icon.html

[limber bough]

I think that is for desktop shortcuts

[grim abyss]

Wait, yeah. You're right

[limber bough]

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/StatusNotifierItem/StatusNotifierItem/ maybe. appears to be supported by at least KDE, Gnome, Xfce, LXQt, and DDE

[grim abyss]

This seems to be for notifications?

This seems to be what we want for X11, which is doable, but seems really annoying. I assume we could do the same thing but with different API calls for wayland: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/systemtray-spec/systemtray-spec-0.3.html

[limber bough]

We could also use something like Qt to do it for us

[grim abyss]

Well, I think it'd still be easier than hooking up to and setting up qt

[grim abyss]

https://github.com/dorkbox/SystemTray

[odd atlas]

Neuron on Sinder's canvas thing

[edgy siren]

[odd atlas]

Pixel Neuon next to a regular Neuron

[terse bramble]

so cute

[edgy siren]

progress update: they are standing on... something

[odd atlas]

Are ghost windows back but this time on Linux?

[edgy siren]

no, this is different

i think this is some invisible window

possibly not even a window

[odd atlas]

Well, it very much looks like how it was behaving with 0.5 on Windows with nothing on the desktop

[limber bough]

It could be the folder on the desktop. What happens if you move it down?

[edgy siren]

Nothing.

Wait a minute.

I think they're standing on the top of the screen?

They display on-screen because the Swing windows seem to be unable to be rendered outside the screen, even partially.

But, physically, I think they are outside the screen.

let me print their coordinates in the console to confirm this

[limber bough]

Oh yes, I noticed that while playing around with it as well. They can't be offscreen, even partially.

[edgy siren]

wait i can actually just open their debug windows i think

good thing that's a feature

yep, they have a y-value of 0

i think i may know why they are treating the desktop like a window

okay never mind

x11 is weird because the "names" of windows are not what appear as their titles

the active window seems to be something called "mutter guard window" which takes up the entire screen but is invisible

[odd atlas]

Well, then maybe you need to make it so the Neurolings ignore that one

[limber bough]

Mutter is gnome's window manager so we will need to add all similar windows for other desktops to that filter.

Or just ignore fullscreen windows because they can't be on top of these anyways

[edgy siren]

i hardcoded mutter as an exclusion and then encountered a 10x10 window called "gsd-xsettings" so i also excluded that

then i encountered a third one, so i am instead going to attempt to only include windows at the bottom of the window hierarchy when iterating through them to determine which one should be the active window, rather than including all of the windows

okay, it turns out that the aforementioned third one, named "ibus-x11", was already at the bottom of one of the branches of the window hierarchy

back to hardcoding

Okay, I'm going to research X11 window properties because I am getting nowhere.

[edgy siren]

Something what I discovered yesterday but forgot to mention: I can't read the X11 window state (i.e. properties like being minimized, maximized horizontally/vertically, and fullscreen) because the getState() method in my code can't seem to retrieve the _NET_WM_STATE atom.

[odd atlas]

Maybe you need to use something different with X11

[edgy siren]

Also, the getProperty() method (which is used by getState()) is supposed to throw an exception if it can't get an atom, but the getState() returns empty arrays instead, which I guess means that the atom does exist, but has no value or something.

(getProperty() normally returns arrays of bytes which are then converted into integers.)

getState() is one of the methods what was present in the original Linux Shimeji port but not in the original X.java file from the JNA repo's contrib folder, which may be notable.

But a few of the methods what are in the original X.java file don't work, which I am guessing is either an issue with the VM or Ubuntu itself.

Maybe I should test on a different Linux distribution what doesn't use Gnome.

[edgy siren]

The referenced files:
https://github.com/java-native-access/jna/blob/master/contrib/x11/src/jnacontrib/x11/api/X.java
https://github.com/asdfman/linux-shimeji/blob/master/src_x11/com/group_finity/mascot/x11/X.java

oh god huge embeds

[odd atlas]

Yeah, Gnome is known to cause a lot of issues, so might as well try a more compatible DE

[edgy siren]

Do you have a recommendation of a distribution to use?

[odd atlas]

Use something with KDE I guess, I heard that thing is quite good

[grim abyss]

Have you looked into using a native library?

I forget. Is it .so? I forget what the dynamic one is

Nvm, .so is for dynamic libraries

[limber bough]

Gnome causes lots of problems but I don't think it is the cause here. The x server is responsible for the api and every linux uses the same x server (namely xorg). Gnome is just another client.

[grim abyss]

Or rather, using one directly instead of using JNA's convenience thing or whatever (sorry, I'm still waking up)

[grim abyss]

Looking through your code right now, but I wanted to mention this in case you didn't know

When the window is withdrawn, the window manager will either change the state field's value to WithdrawnState or it will remove the WM_STATE property entirely.

[edgy siren]

Oh.

What's WithdrawnState?

[grim abyss]

If the window is withdrawn, it is valid for a window manager to remove the WM_STATE entirely

https://tronche.com/gui/x/icccm/sec-4.html

Go down to 4.1.3.1. WM_STATE Property

You should probably read through that

[edgy siren]

Isn't _NET_WM_STATE different from WM_STATE?

getState() reads the former.

[grim abyss]

It looks like that's the extended version?

The one I sent is like the base X specification

[edgy siren]

Probably explains why most of the methods what use _NET atoms in X.java don't work. Maybe whatever provides those atoms is absent in my Ubuntu installation.

[grim abyss]

It does look like GNOME follows that spec, though

https://ice-wm.org/gnome-wm-hints/

It says on the top here

[edgy siren]

oh, true

i suppose none of the _NET atoms would work if extended window manager hints were absent, yet _NET_WM_NAME works (sometimes)

and i again need to point out that getting _NET_WM_STATE does not yield null; it yields an empty byte array

is that what would happen if the state was removed, or would it yield null if it was removed

[grim abyss]

https://specifications.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/wm-spec-latest.html#idm44981516437872

The Window Manager should remove the property whenever a window is withdrawn, but it should leave the property in place when it is shutting down, e.g. in response to losing ownership of the WM_Sn manager selection.

I don't know how JNA handles it, but this kind of protocol doesn't care about those high level abstractions

[limber bough]

You are running gnome on x11 and not wayland, right? Because xwayland (the translation layer from x11 to wayland) may not be implementing everything.

[edgy siren]

I'll check.

[grim abyss]

I doubt any of these would be working then

This is specifically the extended x11 window manager hints afaik

[edgy siren]

[grim abyss]

[edgy siren]

on the bright side, this means the shimejis already have partially functioning wayland support

[limber bough]

Lets hope it actually works on the xorg version.

[edgy siren]

so i've got good news and some bad news

the good news is they are now interacting with windows

the bad news is this

probably dpi issue again

[grim abyss]

Welp

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26802683/get-the-list-of-active-windows-in-wayland-weston?rq=1

[edgy siren]

luckily, i already copied a bunch of code from the windows support to make this more performant, so i can just copy the dpi code from there, too

[grim abyss]

This might be a lost cause with wayland

[edgy siren]

i'll get it working with x11 first

it's nearly there

[grim abyss]

X11 seems like it's totally fine

[edgy siren]

once the DPI is fixed, it should be

[grim abyss]

But apparently Wayland is supposed to isolate every window

[edgy siren]

Eh?

[grim abyss]

This

I looked into it further, and apparently GNOME had a way to bypass it but might have removed it?

Either way, there wouldn't be a portable way to do it

[edgy siren]

What did you mean by "isolate"?

[limber bough]

Have you had problems with them randomly turning black yet? Could be an nvidia thing but it's something I noticed.

[edgy siren]

No, but they sometimes flash out of existence.

The original Linux port's rendering code used both Swing and X11 stuff, which I thought was messy, but my attempts to make it only native made it flicker even more, so I switched back to the original code for now.

[grim abyss]

https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/ch04.html#sect-Protocol-Surface

A surface manages a rectangular grid of pixels that clients create for displaying their content to the screen. Clients don't know the global position of their surfaces, and cannot access other clients' surfaces.

[odd atlas]

Well, if we can't get this on Wayland, I guess everyone will just run X11 to get the Neurolings. The Neurolings are way more important than having the newest tech

[limber bough]

If we ever want to support at least gnome and kde on wayland, I found this, but it is very desktop specific.
gnome: https://github.com/ickyicky/window-calls/tree/main
kde: https://gist.github.com/academo/613c8e2caf970fabd260cfd12820bde3

[grim abyss]

Okay, so this is a thing
https://wiki.hyprland.org/Configuring/Uncommon-tips--tricks/#shimeji

Which gives me hope

It is just one compositor, but other compositors may have something similar

[limber bough]

That is just because hyprland is a tiling wm and the shimeji shouldn't be tiled, but floating.

[grim abyss]

And it looks like that's only for the display borders

Although that's better than nothing

I guess we should be able to at least get it working on display borders, at the very least

[limber bough]

I don't think we need to do anything more for that, just disable what is broken and run it with xwayland.

[grim abyss]

https://docs.gtk.org/atk/class.Object.html
So this is interesting

This is for Mutter, which is used by GNOME

[edgy siren]

swing claims that the DPI is 96, so now i'm confused

i guess the issue isn't DPI

[grim abyss]

Okay

So I might know how to do everything for GNOME, but I'm not entirely sure

[edgy siren]

fixed the window thing

[grim abyss]

I think the best option may be to try to get it to fully work with GNOME and Plasma, and do some barebones stuff for everything else, where it won't work with individual windows

[edgy siren]

they hover a bit above windows when standing on them, but at least they are roughly in the right spot

[grim abyss]

At least with Wayland

[edgy siren]

[grim abyss]

[edgy siren]

now i need to make them throw windows

that feature wasn't even in the original linux port

Do window states function like flags, or can they only be one state at once?

[grim abyss]

State as in whether it's visible or not?

[edgy siren]

State as in _NET_WM_STATE.

That includes whether it's visible, though.

[odd atlas]

Cool, hopefully this will be fully working in time for when I switch to using Linux, which will be whenever I have managed to do various hardware upgrades

[grim abyss]

https://specifications.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/1.3/ar01s05.html#idm45996047623792

So this says _NET_WM_STATE, ATOM[]

So I'm assuming the fact that it's an array means it can return multiple atoms

[odd atlas]

By the way, is there any fix for the Neurolings following an offset cursor yet?

(the follow cursor action often seems to have the Neurolings follow a point a lot to the side of the cursor)

[terse bramble]

I really want to know if this is just happening to me only lmao
my desktop neurons never climbs on the ceiling on my screen
So i sat there for a few minutes, just checking them out and i saw that when they climb up the side of my screen and reach the top corner, they just fall down. is this my setting's problem or just windows 11 problem?

[odd atlas]

That is a bug in the release version, you can use this multipart archive's content to obtain and install a fully self-contained installation of the latest beta that fixes the bug, just use the Neurolings.bat startup file to run it

[terse bramble]

Thank you, it works perfectly now

[odd atlas]

Yeah, that one is a known issue, which has been fixed in later beta builds

Do note that the beta I just gave you uses Java 11 or higher, while the release uses Java 8 only, which is why I recommend using the JVM I included in the package

[terse bramble]

Alrighty, will do

[odd atlas]

That is what the batch file is for by the way, you can look at it in a text editor if you want

[edgy siren]

Update: I realized that the methods for getting window states and types were getting single integers instead of the arrays of integers what they were meant to be getting, so I fixed that by making a getIntListProperty() method. I can now read all of the states/types instead of just the first one, but now the program is much slower.

I also sort of got moving windows to work, but the mascots tend to let go of the windows very shortly after they pick them up, as if the window became out of range.

And the "restore windows" button just crashes the program now due to my attempt at implementing it, so that's lovely.

anyway i figure it's about time i provide another beta

i did find a hotfix for the new slowness which was to only check the currently focused window when checking which window should be interactive, rather than iterating through all of the windows

i'll attempt to partition my many changes into multiple commits and then send a build here

[edgy siren]

Here's the thingy.

Once again without any Neurolings because I don't want to leak anything else.

though i don't know whether anyone else is working on it right now

[grim abyss]

I've been focusing on learning Rust recently

I think it'd be a good thing to implement some of the native window interaction stuff in a language other than Java because Java wasn't exactly built for that kinda stuff

Having all of the nitty-gritty details in another language and providing a simple, neat interface for the Java code to call would probably work better

[odd atlas]

Does not run

[edgy siren]

Did you just plop the JAR into an existing folder?

Because that won't work.

[odd atlas]

I did, as well as the lib folder

[edgy siren]

Languages got updates, too.

[odd atlas]

Interesting

[edgy siren]

I merged a Kilkakon update.

[odd atlas]

So should I copy over conf too?

[edgy siren]

Yeah.

may as well just move the images over to the new folder, honestly

[odd atlas]

Too much hassle to mess with autorun and shortcut paths

[edgy siren]

fair

[odd atlas]

And done, I also transplanted the Neurolings theme settings and text changes into the new language files

I will now proceed to make a new self-contained package

The self contained package has been quite useful for distributing the latest version to those who are lacking it

And done, if someone wants a package that just works, here it is

So far it seems quite normal, except that no cloning has happened so far

Ok, cloning seems to work

I will continue monitoring it

[edgy siren]

Ogey.

[odd atlas]

This time I packaged a fairly minimal version, with just all the files needed to get the Neuroling running, including the JVM, configurations, Neurolings images and libraries

And of course the new jar file

And the usual Neurolings.bat to run the thing

[twilit creek]

Monitoring this thread for a while. Also looking for linux support but I'd be willing to test a few things on a tilling wm, at least whenever linux properly gets dealt with.

[odd atlas]

The current jar does have basic Linux support if you want to test it

It is definitely still in development, but it exists

You can grab the package I provided and just run it on a Linux JVM

(at least as far as I know)

[odd atlas]

The falling forever bug is still a thing it seems

[odd atlas]

It appears nothing changed when it comes to the falling forever bug, it still happens randomly after display configuration changes and then disappears randomly by changing the display configuration again

Haven't seen other major bugs for now

[odd atlas]

Based on what I can see, the application itself probably refreshes at 30 FPS

[grim abyss]

@edgy siren Hey, I'm still working on learning Rust and I need something to practice with, so I might as well do it with something that might be used if I end up finishing it. With that in mind, would you mind making a list of features you would need from a library that would handle the native window interaction stuff? Like what sort of functions you would want, etc.

If it's not too much of a pain ofc

[odd atlas]

Apparently the Neurolings can handle my PC absolutely dying pretty well, my entire E: drive just stopped responding for some reason, causing explorer and shortly after everything else to just freeze, making me have to press the reset button even after managing to click reboot. The Neurolings didn't seem to care

[grim abyss]

Neuro and Evil don't care about your computer's issues. They are above that

[odd atlas]

Seems like it, if they can survive something even Windows can't

[odd atlas]

The new version works perfectly well with switching between RD and non-RD modes of operation

[odd atlas]

The Neurolings are still stable on the new version, will continue to monitor

[odd atlas]

By the way, is there gonna be a fix for the offset cursor follow position bug at some point soon?

[edgy siren]

i'll have to look into that

i notice it sometimes but it seems to work normally at other times; it's weird

[odd atlas]

Yeah, it is a weird bug, but it has been happening for a long time now and I have reported it multiple times

[odd atlas]

Any progress on fixing the cursor follow offset bug?

[odd atlas]

I guess not

[edgy siren]

got a lot of exams coming up so i can't work on this too much; sorry

[odd atlas]

Ok then, I guess I'll wait

[dusty tapir]

Chat did paccha send newer version of neuros here ? (He updated just how they look ((made a lil bit btr)) )

[odd atlas]

There are no updates to the Neurolings sprites I know of, only the application itself has got a new beta

[supple sigil]

i think we havent shared any newer versions in quite a while, but its not quite applicable rn. there might be updates for neuroling and eviling assets, but abby and wevil arent done yet lol, theres nothing to release.

i didnt do much so far aside from doing slight redesign again and adding a few new animations/tweaking old ones.

the redesign in question lol. there ain much aside from editing almost every single sprite

[odd atlas]

There has been some stuff done with the program itself, but there are some bugs to fix

[slow pike]

dis is fun af

[odd atlas]

Interesting

[mellow patrol]

[mystic pollen]

LMAOO this is funny

[terse bramble]

That's top tier

[empty viper]

Where is the most updated file on the Neurolings, because I think I downloaded the old version.

[twilit creek]

#1174291909066375199 message

[empty viper]

Is this one a zip file, I can't seem to open it and what is this designed for, Windows?

[twilit creek]

7-zip on windows, I just had to search how to do it on linux

[twilit creek]

Testing this arguably the worst case. Can't even run the openjdk as forced to grab from repo (found it, no problem), wayland, and tilling window manager.
So far besides edits to my wayland compositor (Hyprland) and distro not placing stuff correctly (NixOS) (one steam-run later and we are running perfectly) Everything so far looks good, I'll report any bugs here.

[empty viper]

I can't seem to extract it

[twilit creek]

did you download both halves?

[empty viper]

Oh it's both halves? 🤦‍♂️

Let me try that now

[empty viper]

Okay, I've downloaded both halves

[twilit creek]

I belive you should try opening the first half

at least that's what worked with me

[twilit creek]

When I try and open the on Neuro/Evil menu it pulls up the screen/window selector for screen sharing (sub menus retrigger it).

Neurolings seem to just appear (one at a time as a action) on the current workspace. Not sure about cause just yet.

[empty viper]

And this is with using 7-zip?

[twilit creek]

Should be?

[empty viper]

Alright, time to try it out

[empty viper]

After I extract the 1st half of the file, what's next?

[twilit creek]

Should have extraced both halves

[empty viper]

I can't seem to extract the 2nd half for some reason

[twilit creek]

You already did that during the first one

the extraction is complete

[empty viper]

Oh okay and then I just open it right?

[twilit creek]

as long as java exists then yep

[empty viper]

Do I open the .jar or .bat file?

[twilit creek]

.bat opens .jar so .bat

[empty viper]

Ah gotcha

[empty viper]

I think it's working now. Is the cloning option in this version?

[twilit creek]

enabled by default and manual in settings

[empty viper]

Oh so they will clone themselves on their own?

[twilit creek]

yeah, slowly but surely

[empty viper]

Okay, it's definitely working now because there's two of them now

[empty viper]

My neuroling has stopped working

She's just sat staring at my Discord

[twilit creek]

chaining these together
Moving them with the way I'd normally doesn't work. Not sure if it is an issue with the how it handles the normal move window behavior, Weird to move from Meta+Mouse normally to just mouse for the neuroings.

[odd atlas]

The app's Linux support is designed for X11

[odd atlas]

The batch file runs the jar using the integrated JVM

[odd atlas]

Can you drag it out of whatever state it's in or is it completely stuck?

[twilit creek]

Running via xwayland, so it still works somewhat.

[odd atlas]

Ok then

I assume you are running either the jar from the Clown that runs on JDK 11+ or a variant of the JDK 11+ jar

[twilit creek]

Grabbed this one: #1174291909066375199 message
JDK 21

[empty viper]

I ended up restarting it and then letting a Witch Neuroling be the only one walking around. It did not get stuck and was able to multiply into five of them.

[odd atlas]

If the thing that you are referring to as having gotten stuck is one of the older style Neurolings, that is a known issue

[empty viper]

Oh I see. Good to know.

[odd atlas]

The Neuron, Eviling, Broken Neuron and Weuron should be immune to that issue, unlesss the application itself has an error in the console

[edgy siren]

Have any of you experienced an issue in which the Neurolings can't interact with windows?

On the Windows OS, specifically?

[odd atlas]

I haven't, not on the old and not at least yet on the new motherboard

[odd atlas]

Found one thing that even the Neurolings can't survive: DIVA bringing down the whole system due to a bad overclock

[odd atlas]

7TV: uses all the memory
The Neurolings: exist as if nothing happened

[supple sigil]

dafuq

[odd atlas]

I guess the 7TV devs added a new memory leak or something

But now we know the Neurolings can deal with a memory leak

[quasi grove]

7TV is awful with the memory leaks, it doesnt help that twitch is also awful with memory
I had to move my twitch watching to Chrome (even though i use firefox for everything else) because chrome seems to handle the memory leaking better

[odd atlas]

I can handle a couple memory leaks, I have the memory (64GB physical and around 8TB or more theoretical swap)

I can just kill the one process causing issues when it causes issues

All the rest of the 4000 other tabs can stay unaffected

[odd atlas]

The Neurolings seem to run without issues on the new motherboard I installed recently

[ionic schooner]

4k tabs???

[odd atlas]

Might be exaggerated a bit

But there is a lot of them

[ionic schooner]

what do you need so many tabs for??

[odd atlas]

There is just a lot of random stuff, including but probably not limited to:
programming stuff
Neuro stuff (Neuro's Twitch page, Neuro rants)
pxls.space (for pixeling, multiple tabs)
and some more stuff I forgot about

[quasi grove]

at times i have overflowed to ~700 tabs (confirmed by a tab managing extension)
fot me it happens when i have cool stuff a videos i want to view, but i dont have time now, so basically the tabs become a "to be viewed later" queue
also saving tabs is a massive hassle so i dont do that

[odd atlas]

By the way, I think the default maximum Shimeji count is too high on anything below 1440p just because of screen space

[odd atlas]

Interestingly I have not had the falling forever bug happen since I swapped my motherboard

[odd atlas]

Managed to replicate it again, once again, it was from changing display configurations with multiple displays connected, happens randomly

[odd atlas]

It is convenient that it no longer happens by just shutting down and restarting displays though

[odd atlas]

The current version of the Neurolings at least is decently efficient, it only uses like 2-3% CPU or something like that, which is not much

[blissful tendon]

what's the lastest version of neurolling ? the one in the pinned ?

[odd atlas]

That is not the latest available, but just the latest non-experimental. I can give you the latest beta if you want it

#1174291909066375199 message
The multipart archive here has the latest version

it should be run using the included Neurolings.bat script to utilize the bundled JVM

[odd atlas]

Based on what I know, the application refreshes at 30Hz, which is pretty interesting

[odd atlas]

No matter what I do on my PC, no matter how much load I put on it, the Neurolings just keep doing their thing

[odd atlas]

Some people find the amount of Neurolings on my desktop excessive, I just find it normal

[odd atlas]

Odd how sometimes it seems the Evilings specifically don't want to clone themselves

[odd atlas]

Neurolings with the system under really high load has pretty massive latency

[ionic schooner]

i can't open the 7z.002 file. i can open the 7z.001 file just fine but the 7z.002 file i cannot open

[odd atlas]

They are parts of the same file, you are actually opening both when opening 001

So just extract 001 and you have the full thing

Then run Neurolings.bat

[ionic schooner]

yep they're working

[odd atlas]

Cool, feel free to report here if you find any bugs

[ionic schooner]

they're taking over

[odd atlas]

Best feature

Meanwhile me:

[ionic schooner]

Why do they prefer the left side so damn much

[odd atlas]

I have literally no idea

They just seem to have a couple focus points

[odd atlas]

Have this Weuron standing here I guess, because why not

[odd atlas]

I had a random funny art idea at one point:
someone should draw a Neuron nomming on an LGA 1700 CPU (because at one point I found the Neurolings absolutely consuming CPU power, causing system wide lag)

I think it would be really funny

[odd atlas]

Maybe that will be something to do if I ever get good at art

[odd atlas]

Quite a few Weuron patters

[odd atlas]

Have an Eviling this time

[odd atlas]

Crazy stuff, the Eviling has been patted even more than the Weuron

Can't wait for the patting feature to become available

[cosmic narwhal]

What a coincidence

[odd atlas]

Perfect alignment

[humble forge]

just got this. freaking adorable

[odd atlas]

It really is
If you just installed the application, make sure to use the latest patch for the best experience

[humble forge]

when was the latest patch done for it

the one i got was last updated on jan 10th so probably not the latest then lmao

ah actually i might see it

[humble forge]

is that one from july still in beta, then?

[odd atlas]

Latest patch is here: #1174291909066375199 message

[humble forge]

ok yeah that was the one i was talking about lmao

ight lemme see how i can do this

[humble forge]

ok so correct me if i'm wrong but i should be able to just extract the 001 file right? Do you just extract it into the Neurolings Collection folder or one of the other folders in it?

i'm not very literate when it comes to this

[odd atlas]

You need to just download both and then extract 001 and it will extract both at once

Neurolings.bat is the file you need to run the thing

[humble forge]

oh nice i got it

les gooo

[odd atlas]

Cool, feel free to report any bugs if you come across some

[humble forge]

will do

[small snow]

not sure if anybody would ever need this but I got this working in macos

[odd atlas]

How did you do that?

And can they interact with windows and climb all edges?

[small snow]

there are alternate desktop pet engines

[odd atlas]

Is it the Java 11+ build?

[small snow]

windoe interaction is no

[odd atlas]

Oh

[small snow]

they react to my keyboard tho

[odd atlas]

Then it's not as good as on Windows, probably needs a proper MacOS build to be proper

[odd atlas]

Interesting, could be an idea for a feature for Shimeji, who knows

[small snow]

og shimeji doesnt work with mac

[odd atlas]

Well, it doesn't work with Linux either, but Shimeji Neurolings does work with Linux a bit

The Neurolings build of Shimeji has a ton of improvements, especially the newer builds

[small snow]

oh link it, i will try on mac

if its java it might work