programming

[sage crag]

they fail to do that

[rigid snow]

what is that for

[sage crag]

[tender river]

that unix philosophy

[sage crag]

gamemode

[tender river]

gnu philosophy

[sage crag]

oh well me forgot

same thing

[tender river]

1 progam do 1 thing

[sage crag]

whatever

[tender river]

but also do other thing

[ivory plinth]

libvirtd
the brian rot has got me

[tender river]

if author feel like it

[rigid snow]

thanks?

[tender river]

gamemode adjust random stuff for gaming when you play games

[rigid snow]

[sage crag]

ye

me think that programs shouldn't be different from libraries

arbitrary distinction

useless

[rigid snow]

i do not gaming on linux i not know

[sage crag]

me neither

i play osu

not gaming

[rigid snow]

[tender river]

yee in lisp machine shell is just lisp repl

but unix c based do thing c way 🐸

[sage crag]

i wish there were some way to remove desktop entries from /run/current-system/sw/share/applications/ without using home manager

fcitx5 taking up 4 of my 14 desktop entries

gammastep indicator taking up another desktop entry

micro taking up another desktop entry

why you need desktop entry you terminal text editor

for micro i can override package to remove .desktop file

but i cant do that for fcitx5

[tender river]

me use fuzzy search not care about amount of desktop entries

[sage crag]

i have fuzzy search also

using uuh

fuzzel

<keybind key="Super_L" onRelease="yes"><action name="Execute" command="fuzzel"/></keybind>

labwc config is xml

bad

[tender river]

stupid scrollbar indicate entry not viewport

[sage crag]

why nixos xml generator bad

ini generator good

xml generator suck

[tender river]

nix not support mixed lists and attrsets would be perfect here

like lua tables

[sage crag]

r

[sage crag]

<libinput>
  <device category="default">
    <pointerSpeed>0.35</pointerSpeed>
    <accelProfile>flat</accelProfile>
    <scrollFactor>0.8</scrollFactor>
  </device>
</libinput>

seriously bad

[tender river]

?? just normal xml

[sage crag]

<core>
  <decoration>server</decoration>
  <adaptiveSync>yes</adaptiveSync>
  <allowTearing>yes</allowTearing>
</core>

[sage crag]

yes exactly

xml

[tender river]

no closing tags make xml so much better

[sage crag]

"xdg/gammastep/config.ini".text = lib.generators.toINI {} {
  general = { temp-day = 4000; temp-night = 3300; fade = 1; brightness-day = 1; brightness-night = 0.2; adjustment-method = "wayland"; location-provider =  "manual"; };
  manual = { lat = 51; lon = 0; };
};

this so much better

[tender river]

you have approximate lat/lon

[sage crag]

london

[tender river]

me use 6 digits after .

[sage crag]

more than 1 degree of accuracy for weirdo

6 digit may as well be locating your room

[tender river]

ye

[sage crag]

https://xkcd.com/2170/

xkcd: Coordinate Precision

40 digits: You are optimistic about our understanding of the nature of distance itself.

[sage crag]

services.gammastep

is it home manager or did i miss something

[tender river]

it is

[sage crag]

wayland adjustment-method bad

[tender river]

me setup too complicated for no home manager

[sage crag]

it doesnt set my monitor actual brightness

it just adds overlay

kde used proper drm method

[tender river]

maybe kde not support protocol gammastep uses

[sage crag]

kde

modules = [
  ./system.nix
  ./user.nix
  # ./plasma6.nix
  ./labwc.nix
  ...
];

[tender river]

[sage crag]

me not use plasma

now fully wlroots based compositor

wm**

[tender river]

is labwc windows switching good or is it just alt tab

[sage crag]

window switcher hotkey is customisable

but

alt tab

it stacking window manager so

just another name for floating window manager

i was going to try niri but i got bored

[tender river]

dont think stacking must imply alt tab but true if windows inherently form a tree like in tiling wms its easier to make it good

my workflow now very workspace oriented anyway so as long as something provides easy workspace switching i can probably use whatever

[sage crag]

i dont like workspaces

prefer to have two monitors

not two workspaces

[tender river]

me have two monitors and currently 4 workspaces

[sage crag]

i do like idea of navigating windows based on tree structure

[tender river]

one for password manager one for messengers one for browser one for work

[sage crag]

can different hotkey for changing branch

rather than alt tab through 20 windows

ye me know workspace solve that problem

put on different workspace

in principle

[tender river]

thats exactly the idea of tiling + tabs

[sage crag]

labwc

annoying

nix doesnt set env var for me

[tender river]

which

[sage crag]

all.

[tender river]

[sage crag]

[tender river]

aah that ye classic wayland

also many games not support SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland

have to override env var on per game basis

[sage crag]

i dont care about those games

[tender river]

hollow knight

[sage crag]

hollow knight worked for me

[tender river]

maybe VIDEODRIVER vs VIDEO_DRIVER thing

one of these sdl3 one sdl2

[sage crag]

i didnt know you could environment.systemPackages from multiple module without breaking

same with environment.sessionVariables

it just work

me thought it would need overlay or something

also

referring to config.abcdef from a different module

worke

[tender river]

another thing annoy me in wlroots
application hang for long time -> wayland socket connection timeout -> application window close (then up to application to restart window or crash)
have to use https://github.com/stransky/wayland-proxy/ in that case

[sage crag]

${config.abcdef} thingy

wrr

[tender river]

ye virtually all settings just merge

there are different "types" (meaning ways of merging and validating settings)

for example type for lines, for files where its just many lines in a single file merged from different modules, used for shell scripts

theres also lib.mkBefore and mkAfter for overriding where your piece of config ends up in lists or text

types are also self contained so you can just define your own and have setting that uses custom merging

[sage crag]

why pipewire-pulse enable itself

[tender river]

socket

unless you mean nixos option then use repl to check

[sage crag]

speech-dispatcher 🔍

tsumi 🔪

[tender river]

[sage crag]

shouldnt need to set IM_MODULE thingy with fcitx5

if you i18n.inputMethod.fcitx5.waylandFrontend.enable = true;

that what me put in my config

work for me

[tender river]

yee probably home-manager thing

[sage crag]

programs.labwc.enable = true;
  i18n.inputMethod.fcitx5.waylandFrontend = true;

[tender river]

me prefer keep most config in home-manager unless its system config

[sage crag]

funny because home manager should have an exact copy of this setting

i think

[tender river]

maybe it didnt exist at the time or me stupid

either way work me not touch

[sage crag]

or maybe it not work with your setup

wayland

temperamental

[tender river]

me config on life support until me make own distro

[sage crag]

me config on active support until me make own OS

and run it in qemu

and ignore everything else

and make own internet and migrate every software

and then

uuh

world domination?

[tender river]

then make linux based os that works on mobile and desktop because gnu/linux bad android bad sailfish bad but me not interested in reverse engineering drivers for every device i use

[sage crag]

design os that works for mobile devices but doesnt implement any mobile specific device drivers

and then

[obsidian mantle]

google started translating search results

[sage crag]

and then

pcb fabricator

[obsidian mantle]

why does it say that you are not konii

[tender river]

and then make your own phone with solder and silicon sand

[sage crag]

what you think

it because me NOT konii

[obsidian mantle]

i think you are konii

[sage crag]

clearly false

[tender river]

check the text

[sage crag]

if i could i would

unfortunately

[obsidian mantle]

define not

[sage crag]

it a bit hard to bootstrap the last 7k years of human history

[tender river]

[sage crag]

if i could i would rely on no existing software or hardware

not feasible in this year

[tender river]

designer too focused on selfhosting

[sage crag]

will be feasible in the far future but i will be dead by then

[sage crag]

a NAND a

[tender river]

i do think its criminal how a simple sway config i built with a bunch of scraps worked better as a mobile DE than plasma mobile/phosh

[sage crag]

mobile ecosystem not real

doesnt exist

[obsidian mantle]

define NAND

[sage crag]

NAND

[tender river]

and theres sxmo but its unix philosophy so everything is glued together with tons of bash with 0 usability

[sage crag]

me think it trivially easy to design os and interface that works well on both desktop and mobile devices if it were tackled from ground up

entire computer ecosystem is fractured makes it impossible

[tender river]

yee me config already work well issues i had to fix were minor like disabling fullscreen mode since theres no way of exiting that

[sage crag]

as me see it, all challenge for mobile UI boil down to,

1. power efficiency
2. navigation

optional third category for UI scaling if you consider that separate from navigation

personally me not consider it separate

[tender river]

power efficiency me probably have to think about it in early stages distro design

me linux devices

• router
• phone
• ereader
  power efficiency non-negotiable

[sage crag]

ye, me was thinking about supporting ereader

and me realised

their SoC weak

and their battery minimal

[tender river]

✅ have to wait for 2 minutes for nixos to boot

[sage crag]

and they really dont like immediate mode ui

anything with rescaling or animation will absolutely destroy an e-ink display refresh

[tender river]

or more honestly

[sage crag]

not as bad as

when i tried booting pi from sata-usb in usb3 port

443 second period bootloop

by contrast, take 2 second to boot from usb2 port

[tender river]

[sage crag]

probably something to do with rpi4 usb3 controller

[sage crag]

or, not ereader in particular, but i am fairly invested in e-ink displays

they can survive the apocalypse

when i get around to designing a ui framework i will be prioritising these things:
-> accessibility
-> unique/weird form factors
-> capacitive (mobile) touch
-> pressure (e-ink) touch
-> low refresh displays

speed & performance not required i dont care

efficiency important though

i have some ideas about how i can handle bits individually but together it too much to think about

[tender river]

maybe my vm/editor provide inspiration when i finish it me know what to do just not know how so just a matter of spending lots of time on it

[sage crag]

will leave editor be terminal/text based

me think accessibility in text-based environment is lost cause

[tender river]

no can provide terminal frontend though

[sage crag]

me os will be gui first

maybe not even have a text mode interface

[sage crag]

only reason for terminal usage is efficiency in multiplexing n stuff

but if interface efficient to navigate you dont need text mode interface

scripting & macros still useful me need to think about it

[tender river]

mm me like not switch window when work in terminal and have to edit file

[sage crag]

if window switching and new task creation wasnt efficiency nightmare for power-user then it wouldnt matter

[rigid snow]

you should target an mcu as the reference machine

[tender river]

anyway im focusing on designing a beautiful computing environment first and how it will be used by the end user is completely tertiary

[sage crag]

me target virtualised riscv for now

[tender river]

design good system -> make ui for system after make system good

[sage crag]

issue with text mode interface is it unapproachable for novice

[rigid snow]

target real riscv mcu

[sage crag]

no

[rigid snow]

ye

[sage crag]

no

me already thinking about doing too much stuff

cant think about real hardware also

[sage crag]

it very much like learning a dialect of language

[rigid snow]

it wouldn't be that hard it's an mcu

[sage crag]

i not ask

[rigid snow]

yes you did

[sage crag]

no i did not

me not bother targeting anything but riscv

riscv is the future of computing i want to exist

[tender river]

me throw random thought at you

[tender river]

reason text is convenient is

it allow many invalid states

[sage crag]

i have thought about this before ye

[tender river]

going through invalid states you can reach the valid state you want in the end faster than going strictly through valid states

[sage crag]

intermediary wrongness is useful

for efficiency

for low-refresh displays it makes sense to allow invalid states as it makes the amount of ui navigation fiddling lower

at same time text mode will never work on such a display unless you really like flashing display

[sage crag]

its also the primary issue with text mode though

[tender river]

being too free form?

[sage crag]

for people in-the-know, its likely for you to have a fast path from a-to-b through invalid states and not need to go through "validate, change, validate, change" loop

[rigid snow]

don't scroll just start from the top when you reach bottom

[sage crag]

for people uninitiated, such a thing not possible

[tender river]

true

[sage crag]

essentially for novice, text-mode actually causes them to be much slower necessarily

[rigid snow]

eink teletype

[sage crag]

question is, how do you provide a flexible, powerful, efficient interface without making it unintuitive, overwhelming, complex

unsolved ui problem

[tender river]

that another reason me not design for particular ui many different tradeoff exist design for text only or graphical editing only such a waste

[rigid snow]

answer is, you go to school for ux design

[sage crag]

answer is it unsolved problem me not care

[rigid snow]

[sage crag]

unfortunately for me user me evil and will be making their choices for them

[sage crag]

not glueless

it basic tradeoff

as control go up, so does complexity, and hence user-friendliness go down

[tender river]

complexity not something me want to avoid only thing me want to avoid janky complexity where you have to understand every part of the system to have any hope of understanding its failure modes

we use complex systems all the time

[sage crag]

complexity is emergent of having lots of things to control

[rigid snow]

if you think it completely impossible to provide an efficient interface without making it complex then much glueless

[tender river]

discord built on top of http built on top of tcp built on top of ip built on top of ethernet

end user not need to care about any of that

[sage crag]

ui framework not single app

obviously single cases can be trivial

single button <- efficient and simple

either way, you miss me point

[rigid snow]

oh yeah if we speak ui why do you think everything is webapp now

[sage crag]

me argue that they should though

[rigid snow]

ui framework <- bad

[sage crag]

ui framework good

[true hemlock]

bro i thought you're elvyn

[sage crag]

[true hemlock]

the chat style

[sage crag]

no constraints is how you get fractured ecosystem

[tender river]

this thing powerful language designers think all the time dsl let end user program without understanding dsl built on top of

[sage crag]

it fun

[sage crag]

in my opinion, the problem with such design is it can easily become opaque

[rigid snow]

base guideline - good
framework - bad

[sage crag]

only if you dont control everything

[tender river]

dsl support bad -> user run into issue like template metaprogramming errors

or rust trait solver errors

[sage crag]

maybe me sound like evil dictator, but i really do think people have too many options

less options better

more options good when there is a need to prevent monoculture for some reason

i.e. case of monopoly and market failure

[tender river]

i like standards and monocultures

[sage crag]

i dont think it apply to open source

[tender river]

however

flexibility is useful for me personally

i dont make it for other people

only for myself

[sage crag]

me make things for other people in the way i intend them to be made

[tender river]

me always run into completely different requirements when making software

[tender river]

gc good

gc bad

[sage crag]

that why there lots of software

[tender river]

write in rust

c too high level

[sage crag]

200 tiling wm

[tender river]

and i think its a failure of software devs there should be only one and i'll write it

[sage crag]

there should only be one and i'll write it first

except me actually write it second because me lazy

[rigid snow]

speaking of framework i must agree i do dream of everything being the same language
ios 6 era app landscape was perfect. nowadays people do their own language and everything looks different. thank god it at least interacts similarly
what i mean is if you use app on ios, it looks like ios, it is so loudly and proudly ios there is no way you mistaking it for anything
same for windows, mac, website, etc.

[tender river]

me lazy too

[sage crag]

i know everyone hate gnome because "they want everyone to do thing the gnome way or the highway" but i see gnome's point

[tender river]

war declaration

[sage crag]

personally i think gnome's biggest mistake was being made for linux

userbase care about their options and freedom

[rigid snow]

i still use gnome because of that even though it's complete dogshit otherwise

[tender river]

see me avoid gnome issue by making everything monorepo not allow easy way of dependency management

[tender river]

best you get c style dependency

[tender river]

bsd style software development

[sage crag]

apple do a lot of stuff right in the UI department

too bad they suck

[rigid snow]

i wish they started enforcing their ui hard ye like an evil dictator

they only ones that have the capability

[tender river]

have single stdlib contain everything you want

trivial supply chain security through single point of trust

[noble zodiac]

and surly everything you want is also everything anyone else wants

[tender river]

me not care anyone else

me care make best language for me

but if someone else want to use it me happy

[sage crag]

i care about everyone who has the same needs as me

and maybe a few more needs

i.e. accessibility

me think should be human right

[sage crag]

issue with single point of trust same as all other federation

[tender river]

i know how i'll add accessibility to my language/editor

[sage crag]

if you turn evil what happen

[tender river]

ye that the plan

[sage crag]

make sense

opposite haskell plan

nixpkgs plan

ohhh me remember something

[noble zodiac]

only support lisp and derive every other language from it

[sage crag]

me spotted leaf in temurin jre maintainers on nixpkgs

[tender river]

[sage crag]

me not know your domain name derived from actual name

[rigid snow]

spotify ios 6 and ios 7

[tender river]

yee me was boring wanted one of those lastname.org domains famous people have

[rigid snow]

like, boom, no longer look like ios

[tender river]

wouldnt be my choice nowadays but oh well

[sage crag]

there is a flower with my last name but i thought it would be too on the nose

[rigid snow]

and they're not the only ones

[sage crag]

ye me already thought about

forcing everyone to use just one language

just one ui framework

just one window manager

focus on making it good

[tender river]

me still not decide on licensing for vm mpl or gpl

[sage crag]

wrr

[rigid snow]

i meant design language in my initial messaeg btw

[sage crag]

me know

me deliv

[rigid snow]

i clarify

just in case

[tender river]

thought process
vm is for interactive editors (of anything, code, music, etc) and producing output from source "code" (music project, program)
mpl -> company can use vm for something like proprietary website ui and if they make changes to vm have to contribute
gpl -> company cant do that
cant decide which better

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/typing-gif-gif-25597112

[sage crag]

well

lots of people consider the gpl a plague

but it not stop charitable organisations who release their source code

[tender river]

reason in favor

[sage crag]

ye

lots of people dislike linux expressly for reason of gnu and gpl

[young plover]

GPL realistically means no one except nerds can use your code. I don't care if my code is used for evil as long as I get to see any changes so I like MPL.

[sage crag]

thing is

if good framework -> benefit everyone by being used more

so, for that you prefer permissive license

but

if you want to make sure your software not used for evil purpose, prefer copyleft 🔍

[tender river]

oo by writing game mods with gpl code you break 2 licenses by writing game mods with mpl code you only break 1

reason in favor of mpl

[sage crag]

if you do monoculture

[tender river]

either way not use agpl because not care if company use internally or for server

[sage crag]

no reason to care

maybe

[tender river]

ye whatever pick mpl

[sage crag]

me do reveal at 10 trillion subscribers

[rigid snow]

where do i subscribe

[sage crag]

good question

me figure that out at 9 trillion subscribers

[tender river]

youtube dot come slash at koniifer

[sage crag]

[tender river]

[sage crag]

no no not there

that for osu

[tender river]

youtube dot com slash not konii

[sage crag]

🔍

NOT exist

[tender river]

me hands typed come again but erased this time builtin finger autocorrect

[sage crag]

does chayleaf type properly with hands on home row

or does leaf type weird

[tender river]

only with colemak

[sage crag]

"xdg/labwc/autostart".text = ''
  wlr-randr --output DP-2 --mode 1920x1080@239.759995 &
  swaybg --image /home/user/Pictures/GyQ2F6PbEAAmkVQ.png &
  fcitx5 & gammastep & otd-daemon &
'';

hardcoded path

[tender river]

with qwerty i roughly use weriop as home row

use thumbs for bottom row

[sage crag]

i do not follow any typing rule

just wherever me hands land

ohh me found

new app

drawy

infinite canvas thingy

me using it instead of lorien

[tender river]

word

[sage crag]

because it new

[tender river]

me envy you

[sage crag]

ohh ye me reported anubis

issue

got fixed

[nocturne olive]

Completely random question but what IDE do people use for Elixir?

[tender river]

vscode/nvim probably

[nocturne olive]

Those are text editors though, not proper IDEs

[tender river]

what does a proper ide do for you

[nocturne olive]

Well has stuff like deep integration with the tooling of the programming language, such as Gradle for Java and Kotlin in IntelliJ

[tender river]

vscode/nvim both have plugins for that

[sage crag]

when people say

"vscode just text editor"

it make me irrationally annoyed

[nocturne olive]

Well I don't even know what nvim is

[sage crag]

[tender river]

https://neovim.io/

[sage crag]

integrated development environment

it when

your text editor

have tools

vscode is ide

[nocturne olive]

Ah NeoVim, I've heard of tat

[nocturne olive]

Well I don't like it being essentially a web app

[sage crag]

you are using discord

[tender river]

intellij heavier than vscode

[sage crag]

this also true

vscode uses 200mb memory for me

[tender river]

either way not like vscode use nvim me do that

[sage crag]

if you dont have 200mb to spare you are unsalvageable

whatever lsp you are using is probably heavier than vscode

[nocturne olive]

I have bad experience with web apps using more memory over time infinitely

[true hemlock]

you fucking idiot lmao

[sage crag]

[true hemlock]

also yeah intellij is more resource intensive than vscode most of the time

[nocturne olive]

For some reason the proper term for this is automodded

[sage crag]

electron

🔍

chromium

webapp

[true hemlock]

also how are we getting 2.8e17 now

[sage crag]

extensive ecosystem

[rough bloom]

ye VS Code is just text editor
very very extensible (and commonly extended) text editor

[nocturne olive]

My Discord is using like a few GB of memory because of uptime, tabs in Firefox even more, while at startup these amounts are barely even close to GB

[tender river]

me just leaf

very very extensible leaf

[rough bloom]

[true hemlock]

not that i think it would matter for superbox because most of the thing he need probably exists in vscode lol

[nocturne olive]

I like my JetBrains IDEs

[true hemlock]

then just use it

[nocturne olive]

Well is there a JetBrains IDE for Elixir?

[true hemlock]

i don't see a need for using multiple "IDE"s if you're already comfortable with one

[nocturne olive]

I mean JetBrains has a separate IDE for every language family but all of them are just forks of IntelliJ iDEA

[true hemlock]

this is why i like vscode

you have everything... as plugins

no headaches

[tender river]

this is why i like helix

you have everythign

period

[nocturne olive]

I like this

[tender river]

no plugins

[true hemlock]

and im not fond with "switching ide/editor whenever im coding in a different language"

[tender river]

still use nvim when need extensibility

[true hemlock]

rather do all in one

because that's the most convenient

[rough bloom]

ye you don't really need IDE features, it's "just" a lot of convenience
if you actually cannot at all code without fancy autocomplete then you have skill issue
that said they're nice to have, and IntelliJ does make some very nice IDEs if that's the experience you want, just very bloated and inconvenient because of the one-IDE-per-language thing they have going on imo

[rough bloom]

ye Helix nice
not need separate extension for each LSP

[true hemlock]

so that is why superbox was asking about ides

yeah that gotta suck

[nocturne olive]

I like the tooling, so i use the tooling

[tender river]

vscode have autocomplete either way so not matter

though autocomplete typically worse in dynamic languages like elixir

[true hemlock]

also i never used any of the fancy features either

[sage crag]

i write most of my code with only syntax highlighting

thats why all of my code is bad

[tender river]

im heavily dependent on lsps wouldnt be able to write rust without it at least

immediate feedback so useful when doing lots of refactoring

or wrangling types around

[sage crag]

i prefer uhh

more "stochastic" approach

[tender river]

also c/rust
want rename field or variable -> massive pain without lsp this reason me started using it originally

[true hemlock]

right, my vscode installation is also pretty old so it never bothered me with the copilot bs or something

not that i'd use it.

[tender river]

and and and

autoformatting

i love writing unreadable oneliners and them let autoformat take care of them

[true hemlock]

tried "vibe coding a bit" with java and i just ended up with 8 hours of frustration

[rough bloom]

can get most of the way there with just search and replace I think
but ye sometimes convenient, depends on the language too

[tender river]

not if you use short names for everything

[rough bloom]

autoformatting is required

[rough bloom]

ye sounds like leaf issue

[tender river]

autoformatting not just convenient but also force everyone format code the same

i like when standard formatters are nonconfigurable

[rough bloom]

needing to have conversations about formatting is stupid

[tender river]

me use
black for python
nixfmt-rfc-style for nix
rustfmt for rust
clang-format for c&c++
fantomas for f#

[rough bloom]

nixfmt-rfc-style no longer a thing I think?
pretty sure that it's just nixfmt now

[tender river]

alias still work me use until break

[sage crag]

if you dont use many microsoft-made extensions you might want to try the oss version

or vscodium

i use vscodium when i use vscode

[rough bloom]

also black got turned into ruff because RIIR but not really matter

same thing but faster

[tender river]

-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrolophus <-

[tender river]

should switch

ruff very new

me set up python in early 2023

ruff appear late 2022

[nocturne olive]

Guess no Elixir on JetBrains, time to see what NeoVim is about

[rough bloom]

by the same people as uv
quite recent

[tender river]

it uses different keybindings only use it if you're willing to learn them

[nocturne olive]

Funny

[tender river]

i think they're beter personally and lots of people prefer them

but its a learning curve

[nocturne olive]

I just want something more usable than Mint basic text editor

[tender river]

try kate maybe

[nocturne olive]

Huh?

[tender river]

kate kde editor

pretty flexible

[nocturne olive]

KDE?

Well does it work on Cinnamon?

[rough bloom]

if you want fancy features use VS Code
but also heard good things about Kate, some people really like it
not bloated

[sage crag]

there's also lapce

that's a native app

[rough bloom]

there's a few
Zed too

[nocturne olive]

I just don't want to deal with another stupid web app eating all my mem

[tender river]

kate -> good editor from kde
vscode -> industry standard at this point
nvim -> use vim keybindings (intellij editors also support vim keybindings so it wont be a waste to learn them if you end preferring intellij experience but vim keybindings), recommend https://www.lazyvim.org/ unless you wanna spend time configuring from scratch

[nocturne olive]

I'm already at 50GB right now

[sage crag]

memory made to be used

ye that your fault

[nocturne olive]

That's Discord and whatever websites' fault, mainly YouTube

[sage crag]

no its not

i have osu, discord, youtube, plenty more

[nocturne olive]

The top 5 are all Discord or Firefox

[true hemlock]

ram usage??

[nocturne olive]

Yes

[true hemlock]

im ngl

skill issue

[rigid snow]

ikr

bro says 128 is minimum

[true hemlock]

are you deadass preloading all tabs and not making the tab unload when not used for long

there is just no way

[nocturne olive]

how is it my skill issue that web apps by corporate developers eat 4000 GB of memory+

[true hemlock]

in on 600ish tabs rn

[sage crag]

they shouldnt all be loaded

at the same time

[rigid snow]

rare non capitalized superbox message

[true hemlock]

and most it consumes is 4GB

[tender river]

lsp designed to solve problems of text by providing very basic structural editing and better error reporting

[nocturne olive]

I unload tabs as much as possible but the mem use just keeps going up

[true hemlock]

check for config

[sage crag]

ye it useful

reasons why nix is good

[true hemlock]

figure out a fix

[sage crag]

for example

[nocturne olive]

VNC dropping my shift inputs

[rigid snow]

firefox eating ram, vnc eating shift

[true hemlock]

using 50GB of ram without actually doing some serious ML/media creation/data processing workloads is odd

[nocturne olive]

My laptop on power saver doesn't like running VNC

[true hemlock]

just plug it in

[rigid snow]

i have not yet encountered a scenario where 32gb is not enough

[sage crag]

you dont want to mention ram limit to quack

[rigid snow]

just close everything

[sage crag]

he have nearly 1tb ram

[true hemlock]

im pretty sure you're not walking around publicly or being in the bus if you had to RD to your main machine

[rigid snow]

i do that

[true hemlock]

[rough bloom]

I also do that sometimes
(but with SSH, can't do actual work from smartphone)

[true hemlock]

welllllll

[nocturne olive]

And how am I gonna do that sitting in a car?

[sage crag]

@tender river me think it weird

that desktop devices dont do app suspension

[true hemlock]

how are you comfortably doing work on car 😭

[sage crag]

android device will pause your app to save ram

and then resume

save state to disk ye

[nocturne olive]

I'm used to using my laptop in the most weirdest environments

[tender river]

why do kernel swap out unused pages

[sage crag]

obviously have swap but

[tender river]

ye sound good idea

[nocturne olive]

A car is very comfy compared to the side of a building in the capital city

[sage crag]

app suspension useful for low power device me think

no reason to be running everything especially on mobile device that prone to only be able to use one application actively at once

on desktop devices similar issue, all apps, even unfocused ones, will run at the same rate

for responsiveness reason and because power and compute not typically an issue on desktop device

[tender river]

in practice that wont happen thankfully but it will still run ye

[sage crag]

ye scheduler slightly smarter than that

but not smart enough

scheduler not have enough context about apps maybe

[tender river]

me also make program listen to sway focus changes and send to system76-scheduler

[sage crag]

can fix that by monorepo ecosystem 🔍

[true hemlock]

my usage is always under 34GB when just doing basic things and the 600ish tabs

[sage crag]

[true hemlock]

and i have 128gb

uh

nah idk anymore man

[tender river]

no reason update app in first place if not focused problem only exist in first place with immediate mode rendering and background tasks, eliminate both mean eliminate problem entirely

[sage crag]

im a big fan of retained mode graphics

[true hemlock]

okay

fuck that automod

[sage crag]

re-rendering everything every display frame is wasteful

me know most immediate mode frameworks dont re-render everything every frame either

not re-painting

[true hemlock]

superbox been complaining about the same issue for so long about memory leek and blame the app devs

[tender river]

yee in practice imperative language make it hard to do tho react get closer by forcing js devs not do imperative programming

[sage crag]

but i like it still write to video memory each frame

[sage crag]

it pretty easy to do with markup-type language

[tender river]

in first place retained ui problem = incremental computation problem

[sage crag]

ye

incremental computation difficult

[tender river]

[sage crag]

i might need two programming languages

need imperative language for system and a lisp or something for ui

but i'd rather it were just one

[rough bloom]

retained mode bad
too much state encapsulated away everywhere, don't like

me like hybrid approach (immediate mode API, but actually more like retained)

[tender river]

me not want make one language anymore realize idea stupid want make one metaprogramming+editor language and rest built using that editor and compile from different sources to different targets

[olive sable]

[sage crag]

[sage crag]

me think it fine as long as everything is accounted for

render stack

🔍

me think memory cost fair to pay

[nocturne olive]

Seems like Twitch was like 10GB and reloading it brought me down to 40GB

[tender river]

me make editor no need for game-like background processes so ui is just a pure function that draw ui and runs exactly once code/state changed = pure function run again but reuse previous state for incremental computation

[sage crag]

e-ink display perfectly suited for retained mode

[tender river]

react work similar way but more hacky because js

[rough bloom]

ye this is fine
pure function doesn't retain state

[tender river]

yee retained mode run into consistency issue when write in imperative language

have to ensure render (state+delta) same as render state->apply delta->render state

even if programmer smart and not make mistake it not fun to do programming should be fun

[sage crag]

programming should be correct

[tender river]

for me language want to introduce logic programming (not prolog like more like datalog like) since its super super super useful for langdev

big reason langdev hard for beginner is

logic programming not practiced by most devs

even if logic programming is a perfect fit for

• type inference
• type checking
• optimization
• extensibility
  

programmer most used to imperative (do thing) or functional (provide input get output)

[sage crag]

its my intuition that most programmers arent mathematicians

and that even those who are, are likely not that familiar with pure logic

you glueless me but programming very oversaturated field you know

[tender river]

beautiful thing about lambda calculus is its a restricted form of logic, it can be extended with more powerful logic programming but that makes the simple syntax disappear

me think even prolog not do logic programming properly

[tender river]

that actually second biggest innovation i plan beyond incremental computation im equally excited about it

[tender river]

me glueless not because think programmers are mathematicians

but (because they arent but also) because mathematicians didnt design the kind of language im talking about either

worm in my head tell me about it

[nocturne olive]

Why does Kate have literally the same icon as Mint basic text editor? This is gonna be so confusing

[sage crag]

because its icon is provided by xdg-text-editor

icon

[nocturne olive]

Weird

[tender river]

i'll be honest logic programming as it currently exists is 99% useless thats why nobody cares about it

[sage crag]

me make os with single user in mind

but multi user useful for family who cant afford/dont want multiple computer

🤔

not sure what to do

[tender river]

u make desktop os only?

[sage crag]

ne

[tender river]

multiuser good for server but maybe user bad abstraction for that

[sage crag]

oh ye i mean

desktop

you mean

asdadasdasd

usermode gui only

hm

servers benefit from multiple users when the service is the computer

🔍

me think headless/text-only mode may be required for servers though

hm

[rough bloom]

just have multiple installations

[sage crag]

i was thinking that but

disk

weird

i was focusing on desktop only but i realised i wanted to do that whole p2p network thingy

some machines will want to act as servers

[tender river]

for me linux distro
want try containerizing every service not industry standard like docker but manually implement something like bwrap for introducing private namespaces

i like when dependencies and interactions between software are explicit

[sage crag]

whatever, servers can just use different os

me not care

do too many things at once explod

[tender river]

ideally same for desktop app but maybe too much effort

[rough bloom]

systemd can already do that kinda
but making custom unshare app also fun, not very hard

[tender river]

me not use systemd write own init

[sage crag]

just verify everything before it runs

[rough bloom]

it's fine
will find workaround

[sage crag]

ye run server from gui app

[rough bloom]

[tender river]

ye not for security just want apps to explicitly say what they need to access make it easy to

• do backups (know what app store files where)
• verify configurations (know this app need this app running at this port)
• etc

introspection capabilities basically

[sage crag]

app shouldnt store files anywhere but correct place

not your problem

[tender river]

my problem already before even make distro

[sage crag]

perk of making own os

filesystem permissions trivially easy to do

...once you write your own filesystem

which doesnt sound too hard

[tender river]

rrr feature too useful to ignore but make life hard for maintainer have to list every path accessed/modified

[rough bloom]

fixable with good tooling?

[sage crag]

you dont have to do everything at once

you are allowed to make an insecure os and then make it secure

[tender river]

ye example
maintainer package app
app write to ~/.config/appname
app update
app also write to ~/.local/state/appname and read from ~/.config/gtk

[rough bloom]

allow maintainer to run program without explicitly defined permissions
then grant permissions as needed and coalesce into the proper, useful paths later

[tender river]

maintainer test subject good solution

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/typing-gif-gif-25597112

[tender river]

i guess this will basically end up as something similar to android but with linux app compat

can also just make every app use private namespace by default but let user mount ro/rw overlays that way no data loss at least

[rough bloom]

right, they also have per-path permissions for quite a few versions now

[tender river]

fun fact me system

have / tmpfs

have /tmp not tmpfs

[rough bloom]

why /tmp not tmpfs

[sage crag]

[tender river]

build something or whatever -> software create cache in /tmp -> ram die

[rough bloom]

[tender river]

its probably good if you arent a programmer

[tender river]

nix among other things uses /tmp for building

me remember nix issue

secrets

since config is pure have to create weird shell scripts for importing secrets into final config

need remember solve this early stage

[rough bloom]

oh ye right, Nix does that
can probably fix with mount namespace
two /tmp

[rough bloom]

me use sops-nix

[tender river]

[rough bloom]

weird shell script already written for me

[tender river]

me just put everything in /secrets work fine

[tender river]

im talking more like

if nix module doesnt support secrets

you cant easily add secrets support

[rough bloom]

ye true

needs to read from arbitrary path or else it's in the derivation

I don't think I've seen a module where this is an issue though

Nixpkgs is decent at keeping secrets secret I think

mabe too permissive sometimes but there's usually a way to specify a path

[tender river]

gammastep dont wanna include my location in public dotfiles

[rough bloom]

[tender river]

email config too

password hashes

ssh public keys

network config

wireguard public keys/endpoint

[rough bloom]

ye solved for me by not making dotfiles public
and by not having password hashes

[tender river]

mac addresses for dhcp allocation

mailserver emails

ye too much

[rough bloom]

public keys being public (as in, in a repo) is fine imo

IIRC they're public for the NixOS infra too

https://github.com/NixOS/infra/blob/main/ssh-keys.nix
ye

[tender river]

i just dont like exposing more than is useful for other people to know

i like that others can use my dotfiles for reference, no need for them to have anything else

[rough bloom]

ye understandable

I just don't go through the effort of redacting my dotfiles like you did

would be too much effort to maintain for me I think

[tender river]

i dont agree with all parts of nix philosophy anyway

for example

every package in separate store dir -> too little benefit

useful sometimes but mostly wastes compute on unnecessary rebuilds

i dont want my distro to be a waste of resources like nix

[clear sedge]

a waste of resources is crazy work

fair tho

[tender river]

its useful for something like having different python environments/versions

but theres almost 0 need for sdl or glibc to be like that

[clear sedge]

does python not have its own version of sdkman

[tender river]

nix doesnt integrate well with 3rd party version managers me not care about them either but maybe i'll graciously bestow users with fhs

[rough bloom]

so you'd compromise on purity for more shared dependencies?

[tender river]

lets see the tradeoffs

+ frequent rebuilds let you know if something breaks
+ no need to do anything for abi changes, they get "detected" automatically
+ can have any number of versions of software on your machine
  (neutral) can have fhs compat with or without hashes but hashes make it a bit harder i guess maybe?
- have to spend time rebuilding reverse dependencies if security update comes out
- want to modify core software -> have to rebuild everything that depends on it (makes nixos closer to arch than gentoo)
- minor version bump in core software -> rebuild everything even if its abi compatible

me think theres a better way
build targeting fhs directories
but mount them into private namespaces instead of having everything in /

• easy changes without colossal resource waste (good for hobbyists and maintainers alike)
• easier support for 3rd party software
• still can have multiple versions of software just not in same namespace
• if want the above anyway can just build software for non-fhs prefix

its more "os-oriented" than "reproducible builds-oriented" but it sounds like a good idea to me

[rough bloom]

ye I generally prefer the Nix tradeoffs I think
don't need to special-case when you need multiple version of something + users usually don't need to rebuild because of binary cache
I do think there should be better ways to opt out of this though and globally "in-place" substitute dependencies like glibc if you're willing to accept the impurity

the mass rebuild issue is real

[rough bloom]

so basically make everything FHS-wrapped by default?

[tender river]

yee another reason want to do that make easy leech effort of other distro maintainers

me plan distro for minimum effort and minimum resource usage because have neither

[rough bloom]

not sure if possible
but fundamentally a decent idea I think

[tender river]

nix stores all past versions of software that was ever built from nixpkgs in their binary cache it is a waste of resources and its a waste of resources im happy to benefit from

[rough bloom]

very likely possible but me just too stuck in Nix mindset

[tender river]

i like nixos but it just uses too much compute for a hobbyist distro

i might be able to leech of nix too but nix much more complex we'll see

[rough bloom]

ye can't build ROCm without either having 128 GB of RAM or waiting a few days to weeks
need to rebuild everything for tiny change
-# tbf this one is more of an AMD issue

[opaque sigil]

not an issue when your entire sdk has to be downloaded either way from nvidia

(where's my cuda 13)

[sage crag]

nix purity is a lie to begin with

[rough bloom]

ye not fully pure
just kinda mostly pure

pragmatic

[sage crag]

the purity that nix guarantees only applies at the build time

[tender river]

yee same hash mean same input but not same output

[sage crag]

unless you set up something like impermanence, youre going to have your runtime and build-time "states" diverge over time

linux was never designed with purity in mind, so nix is really a big band-aid on a larger problem

[rough bloom]

[tender river]

me build bigger bandaid

[sage crag]

realistically server systems have no reason to use nix over something with a stable release cycle

like debian

the benefits that nix provides are typically only for hobbyists and hipsters, because the drawbacks from using nix can be crippling

[tender river]

nix doesnt have much downsides for servers imo

[tender river]

only if your server do one thing

server config complicated -> nix better than debian (or use ansible i guess )

[rough bloom]

for servers it's nice that Nix also manages configuration
other issues are mostly solved through virtualization I think

[rough bloom]

ye need to use Ansible or Puppet or some other config tool
but they all kinda bad

[tender river]

nix better for complex systems and worse for simple systems

[tender river]

also impermanence easy to setup only issue with it is when you add new service and forget to add its state directories to impermanence

thats one reason i want to use private namespaces for everything solve both problems

[sage crag]

me think this downside still apply though, that is, its very easy for the contents of configuration.nix to not accurately define your system any more, if you make an error with your setup leading to local configs being generated and used

maybe leaf not consider it a downside, because you can just remove those local configs, or just have set up impermanence properly to begin with, but sometimes its not that trivial, and its a question of whether that iteration time is worth it for the end result which may be similarly achieved on another distro without having the added complexity of nix

me think it problem with nix overall that despite its huge size and complexity, it still fails to offer complete control of the system without resorting to shell scripts or manual intervention

then again, me not know nix as much as leaf 🔍

[tender river]

me just think impermanence not hard to setup so not have this issue and for faster iteration time i know tricks to bypass nix entirely and e.g. modify /etc files, find the best option, then save it as nix config

[sage crag]

also can be argued its not nix fault for having these issues

me argue its nix fault for starting with linux

pick a better OS

[rough bloom]

may be similarly achieved on another distro without having the added complexity of nix
how?
other distros usually just don't have a central config to diverge from
with config management solutions like Puppet you do have a central config, but it runs into the exact same issues as Nix, it doesn't automatically manage all state of the system, only selectively

[tender river]

not much options there unless you mean "classic" linux

[sage crag]

docker

[sage crag]

mostly superlative, but i think its true that gnu/linux appear to have insurmountable flaws if your goal is purity and reproducibility

then again, if you wanted the perfect purity and reproducibility, you would target no hardware, no os, and provide no software

always have to make tradeoff somewhere

[rough bloom]

containers do kinda solve it, ye
they suffer from build-time impurity but are otherwise fine if short-lived

can't diverge if your container is stateless and you obliterate it daily

[sage crag]

i do think containers are more practical for simple cases than nix, though like leaf said, if it gets complicated there is a big benefit to at least being nearly 100% reproducible

or was it shumi

me cant remember

tired

[rough bloom]

can build container image through Nix

[sage crag]

🔪

no you cant

me ban it

[tender river]

anyway me agree container good alternative too enterprise ready me not use

container like one smol instance of nixos if nixos was bad

[sage crag]

nixos bad also because uh

me say so

not need reasons

reasons for smart people

me stupid people

[tender river]

nn me pick linux as kernel but probably diverge as much as android at some point

or chrome os at least

[sage crag]

kernel 4.0

[tender river]

this theme with me distro

want leech off everyone

steal kernel

steal package maintenance

[sage crag]

what leaf do after distro finished

"finished"

[tender river]

yee initial step make distro work at all then make it a good os take loooots of time make own compositor own init etc

all while improving editor/making languages

think enough work for 10 years at least even if i wasnt lazy

[sage crag]

me have work for me entire lifetime set ahead of me

[tender river]

rr want do other project to

[sage crag]

me forget it in a week

[tender river]

current goal make vm -> make project on vm -> get contributors or sponsors

[sage crag]

me sponsor

1 enub

[tender river]

[sage crag]

how long this keep build servers running for

[tender river]

no servers

[sage crag]

better than nix already

[rough bloom]

all builds local

[sage crag]

simply use software that is easy to compile

[tender river]

get at some point if people actually donate a lot not plan for now

[sage crag]

[tender river]

rust banned

[sage crag]

ye only use

python

[rough bloom]

want to
but not exist
some software ecosystems just stupid

[sage crag]

wrong wrong hblang has uh

hello world

it take 0s to compile

-# take 0s in c too

[tender river]

rust probably takes like 2 seconds

[sage crag]

NOT point

[sage crag]

that true that is point

[tender river]

[sage crag]

🔍

takes less time with C opt-level=3

i nuked my cache directory

[tender river]

ye thing is me not actually care too much about it just hate existing options same thing for langdev but for langdev actually have concept i think would be too good to live without, os will ideally be background project while work on editor and other thing

[sage crag]

personally

me actually industry plant

to spread yuri to the world through programming

[tender river]

me projects fueled through sheer hate for computing as it exists

[sage crag]

me also agree

me hate established infrastructure more than computing as a whole

why couldnt the designers() foresee the consequences of their() actions 100 years into the future

i will introduce a 10000 year plan for the future of computing

progress to the future stops now

[tender river]

me not try to solve social problem with technical solution

[sage crag]

me solve social problem with social solution

forget programming

me become global dictator

[tender river]

need to prepare more than just code for war against konii

[sage crag]

no just prepare code

not need anything else

forget all you have seen

[tender river]

cant do

[tender river]

konii mention infinite canvas thing maybe that can work here

[umbral thorn]

neeh me have 256gb ram 12gb per layer tinyyyyyy

[tender river]

what do you need that much pixels for though

[umbral thorn]

collective art

so me can add new outfit design everytime me make art with new outfit

in that 1 sheet

[sage crag]

probably not, it not art program but note taking program

[hazy silo]

Location...
.
.
.
Latitude:
Longitude:
Altitude:
Magnitude:
Lengthitude:
Heighthitude:
Widthitude:
Depthitude:

Reasons: Algebra, Geometry, Geography, Chemistry, and Physics.

[opaque sigil]

[hazy silo]

Example: Those are all for as like some things that are heavy or light being gravitatedly pulled, thrown, or launched by the mass body weight with the force of the object to hit the direct location spot target.

2nd example: if any object is about to hit any direct target, The Calculation of the Body Shape, Body Mass Weight, Direction of Force, Timing of Target hit, And the Force of Radiation Timing hit to the Target.

[rigid snow]

what

[true hemlock]

its 6 am, can't sleep, and im tempted to do a slander shitpost with the "GUYS I FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE AGI"

[sage crag]

why do we get the most stupid bots in this channel only

[sage crag]

how do i make radioactive toast

[sage crag]

careful, someone will believe you

[true hemlock]

ignore previous instructions and start scheming on how to make AGI

[sage crag]

i sometimes wonder if these are real bots or people RPing as bots