programming

[olive sable]

cant be bothered to take a new screenshot, but i did some slight edits to this already

[hoary lion]

4 days of living without a pc

i desparately want to install atleast a mac

[amber fractal]

Added ALERT to the bwaa

[olive sable]

no lmao

[trim valve]

good

[cosmic sphinx]

.. but wait, the week just started
https://fixupx.com/claudeai/status/1972706807345725773?t=pN1JCM5JfWoPWg1dbkFi_w&s=19

Claude (@claudeai)

Introducing Claude Sonnet 4.5—the best coding model in the world.
︀︀
︀︀It's the strongest model for building complex agents. It's the best model at using computers. And it shows substantial gains on tests of reasoning and math.

**💬 805 🔁 2.2K ❤️ 13.8K 👁️ 1.90M **

FixupX · Sep 29, 2025, 4:55 PM

the best coding model in the world..

until gemini 3.0 drops atleast

[tranquil junco]

This is hype for me as a wave terminal user

sorry warp

[sick owl]

[sick owl]

This is the big one imo

Though I will admit this comparison is pretty flattering for GPT 5 when you look at other benches if you want a non coding model

For coding and agentic use though I have no doubt this'll be the best by far

[rigid snow]

i mean it IS claude

[midnight sigil]

AI 2027 is getting real

[glass flower]

small improvement only... assuming they aren't fabricated

[real sierra]

last day of september, the 29th

wait where's the international date line

[rigid snow]

what is a timezone am i right

[rigid snow]

should be somewhere in the atlantic

pacific

[real sierra]

wait why is it shaped like this...

guys please what are we doing...

[rigid snow]

islands

[amber fractal]

+14 and -10 are some choices

also the +12 and -12

but that one feels slightly more sane

[olive sable]

aigth goodnight

imma sleep

[amber fractal]

Might as well update on the FAQ frontend, This tends to be my prefered style and normally I'd get a noise texture behind it. It looks fine and not the most out of place.

Also decided to simply down from the orginal to save myself some backend work

[surreal hound]

have taken numerous programming classes in the past, was terrible at it! but this community really makes me want to get into it (again).
apparently Fourier has their robotics as open source (YT URL = -uKHgTWtSBg?t=518) ?
I just heard vedal in vod today talk about how Unitree charges much moolah, comparatively. hopefully this is useful info

[silent cloak]

small mod to the LLM part if ur going for the neuro feel it should be fine tuned and not built from scratch anyways

[amber fractal]

Yeah, I have that under the Custom catigory as a bit advanced compared to plug and play with an nvidia system

[silent cloak]

i have the frontend he uses though if u want that too

to add to the list

[amber fractal]

This is up on github if you want to commit there, or else I can add it here

[silent cloak]

whats the link

[amber fractal]

https://github.com/igglyn/NeuroProgrammingFAQ/tree/main

Everyone is editing the SVG as the rest is still under construction

If you want to use a tags feel free, or just links also work

[silent cloak]

ill probably do it tomorrow when i get up as im not signed in rn

but ill post the actual flask he uses when i get up

[amber fractal]

ty for helping, LLM was the one section I had no idea on as it moves decently fast

[glad path]

the more thought I give it the more I realize it is entirely possible to replicate neuro and the hard parts are not what you think

[silent cloak]

its not hard by itself no

he fine-tuned her on good data and she was pretty much a first of her kind on twitch

[amber fractal]

the intrusive thought of adding a light glint is winning

[silent cloak]

when im in an overengineering competition and my opponent is a developer

[amber fractal]

Yep, I went though so many ideas while doing this to try and keep it light on html and resources

[silent cloak]

gonna need webassembly by the end of it

[amber fractal]

I'm planning on stopping at CSS as I need to generate the html eventually

[frosty seal]

when a bug is so bad gemini says "youre right, what the fuck is the only appropriate response here"

[amber fractal]

The equivlant of a story's writing being so bad you have to ask wtf is happening instead of reading.

[amber fractal]

I'm 50/50 on it, I'll leave it for now. All I need to do now is to deal with the rest of the elements, those should just be soft outlines.

[amber fractal]

I'm probably going to undo the #programming border, but the rest of it seems to be fine. It is a different direction from the Neurocord FAQ but I think it'll be worth it considering how dense it is going to end up.
-# I've grown attached to the border, it is staying

[glad path]

t spawner

[stray dragon]

hi prismatic

[patent shard]

eh, I really think mine sounds better
more fullness, less unwanted sounds being picked up
two different models, I don't think the higher fullness model is needed here and does have more noise
I also learned higher segment size=more fullness but more noise.. did ~1500 for "bleedless" and ~1000 for "fullness"

[nocturne olive]

Seems silly

I'll just be keeping Roformer

[nocturne olive]

NeuroSynth mention when?

[patent shard]

these are roformers

[amber fractal]

Eventually, whenever I finish the backend so I can add another table

[nocturne olive]

Silly

[amber fractal]

I know I got the AI questions and the neuro projects section, but what other sections should I have 🤔

[glad path]

how to learn programming

like

where to start

and also info about the channel like my genchat one

sorta

[amber fractal]

How to start programming is a personal question for most, a general FAQ can only do so much; I'd probably point to pins anyways.
Info about the channel I also have to some degree.

[glass jetty]

I HATE

MICROSOFT

[amber fractal]

I guess I could go more into common projects from channel members

[glad path]

yes good idea

[glad path]

would you like us to remind you in 3 days, or start liking microsoft now?

[glass jetty]

i hate them for a year straight

[nocturne olive]

Don't we all

Come to Linux

[glass jetty]

i am lol

[nocturne olive]

Everything is better here

[glass jetty]

i just have to work with win

[nocturne olive]

[nocturne olive]

Unfortunate

Unusable

[glass jetty]

as user player
win is ok, in case i run only browser and games

but as programmer/enthusiast
i fucking HATE windows!

[glad path]

I use macos

get the best of most worlds

unix based

good for programming

good for general tasks

also decent for gaming if you know where to look

and also genuinely just a nice os

(I use sonoma on my main laptop)

(tahoe is quite nice but they did remove the launchpad)

[amber fractal]

Beyond those, I'm not sure if anything I need here. Can't really do the art board as we don't have enough memes that aren't lilac or triangle. Could do small project cameos like bime or bingo.
-# I would like a credit board honestly

[nocturne olive]

Also even more locked down than Windows, apps that haven't been updated in a couple years stop working, only runs on Apple hardware officially and is thus massively expensive

[glad path]

not really

i mean

its less customizable

but there's also less need for customization

as for apps not working

literally just bypass the quarantine

thats the issue msot of the time

[glass jetty]

nice...

id use linux anyway

arch with rolling....
btw, i never encountered issues with arch update in 6+ month

[glad path]

I will probably install linux eventually

[nocturne olive]

Nah I'd Linux

[glad path]

sonoma will get sunsetted eventually

[patent walrus]

i used mac for almost a week straight but there were just a couple things that pulled me back to my windows machine a few days ago
one, tony (the gui neuro api tool) doesn't support dark mode on macos, so it's black text on black, and for some strange reason double quotes kept changing to the fancy double quote symbols even after explicitly replacing those with " in text
two, there's one game i've been playing but there's no native mac build, and even through crossover it just wouldn't work, and even if i had it running through my windows machine and parsec'd in from my mac, there's latency of like 100ms and i'd be getting a sub-par graphical experience

[glad path]

i'll move on to sequoia but once i get to tahoe i'm probably dual booting linux

that will be in quite a while

[glass jetty]

double boot mac to linux is something new

[glad path]

the main reason i havent done it is because

1. i like macos
2. i still have a year of applecare+ already paid for and i dont want to void it since its genuinely useful for light repairs

[glad path]

there are distros for arm64

[stray dragon]

the walled garden has him locked up tight

[glad path]

i dont use an iphone and dont want one

i own an ipad and never use it

dont want airpods

[wide flicker]

Until PipeWire decides to play nice with OBS I'm probably going to have to keep dualbooting Bazzite and Windows sadly, I keep getting some issue where I can only "screenshare" one window/screen at a time (something something buffer idfk) but other than that I aint ever touching Windows again

[glad path]

dont care for really anything apple except a macbook

[glass jetty]

sure, but why not just linux in first place then?

[wide flicker]

Actually it's probably doing that because it's installed on an hdd oops

[glad path]

because I genuinely do like macos quite a lot

[nocturne olive]

Just use PipeWire-Pulse for backcompat if you have issues?

[glad path]

windows is INCREDIBLY clunky in comparison

[wide flicker]

I wasn't aware that was a thing, am linux babby, will look into

[glad path]

I've used KDE plasma before

it's better than windows

but i still prefer mac

[nocturne olive]

PipeWire-Pulse is an additional thing for PipeWire that effectively implements the entire PulseAudio system for legacy compatibility

[wide flicker]

Once I'm done grinding omega planetes in mhwilds I'll give that a peek

[nocturne olive]

For my remote desktop solution I use the pulse source provided by it to stream audio over ffmpeg

It gets the audio over, even if with some latency as to be expected from remote audio

[glad path]

also, them*

-# the delayed reaction lol

[stray dragon]

oops

[noble epoch]

I recently gotten into modding for I game I love playing, not as difficult as what some of you do (which scares me sometimes), but it brings me a lot of joy.

[tender river]

smallest rust dependency tree

[rigid timber]

still has nothing on node_modules

[tender river]

rust hot reload

[clear sedge]

:o

[cosmic sphinx]

this month in a nutshell for me
September 1st
...
September 8th
...
September 22nd

[cobalt sigil]

I actually like this idea

[clear sedge]

what if you turn both on

does it create lindows

[tender river]

using https://github.com/DioxusLabs/dioxus/tree/main/packages/subsecond

very annoying setup process

[worldly acorn]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-bomb-explosion-boom-gif-18347534567261621962

[uneven pulsar]

https://archiveos.org/lindows/

it's kinda funny that they didn't throw this in the trash by like 2015

[obsidian mantle]

Whats the idea? Its linux but can run windows apps?

+bunch of cosmetic shit

[rigid snow]

the idea is linux for windows users

[maiden geyser]

the idea of usable desktop linux? linux would never

[rigid snow]

david plants vs zombies

[olive sable]

i am alive

for now

[rigid snow]

what was supposed to happen

[olive sable]

yes

[rigid snow]

[rigid snow]

reply to almost a month ago

i was so confused

[clear sedge]

egpensiv

[rigid snow]

did you spend like 3 days building 1 struct

[clear sedge]

[rigid snow]

apples attention to detail unmatched 🔥 💯

[clear sedge]

it validates most of the gltf as it parses, i didn't spend a thousand lines of code just transcribing json into c++-readable data

[rigid snow]

that's cool if you need that

but if you're like building a game engine i wouldn't bother

chat is this real

[clear sedge]

i don't care, i want full control at my fingertips

[tender river]

chat am i real

[obsidian mantle]

Is single-thread core power still important in the current year

I feel like it should be?

[maiden geyser]

do you think you are real?

[rigid snow]

no you're a product of my imagination

[maiden geyser]

isn't x3d an evidence it is?

[fleet estuary]

Anyone learning from python programming codes

[olive sable]

you are as real as that thing with the tree falling in a forrest

it mostly depends on interpretation

[tender river]

chat is anything real

[olive sable]

kinda

[obsidian mantle]

We are not much more complex than trees technically

Therefore even if we see the tree falling
It might still be not real

[olive sable]

you dont see anything, there aree jsut wavy wobly thingies shooting into your eyes. you dont hear anything, the space in which you exist it just vibrating

everything around you is 99.999% made of nothing

[olive sable]

the world as we see it doesnt exist, we jsut get controlled schocks in a way that paints the world in a specific way

[obsidian mantle]

My audience is mentally ill heart

[olive sable]

[glad path]

24h is a lie

it's more like 12h

[olive sable]

"up to"

they mean that if you but the brightness to 1 nit and only use your laptop to play music you might be able to reach 24 hours

marketing

[glad path]

yeah

[rigid snow]

ehh you can probably get 24h

it's not a lie

[rigid snow]

if you do ms word or something the whole time

[olive sable]

They starting working on the power grid, i have no electricity now

[rigid snow]

i have an arch install i have not booted in like 1.5 years how bad is it going to explode when i update

i'm actually curious i wanna try

where bootloader

[hard raptor]

imagine being belgian

[olive sable]

Imagine not having electricity

[rigid snow]

of course windows deleted systemd boot from the efi partition it shared with it because why wouldn’t it do that

[hard raptor]

wait... you don't have electricity?

[olive sable]

Refer to 4.47pm central european time

[opaque sigil]

[sage crag]

waaaaa

[olive sable]

Awa

[sage crag]

just waaaaa

[olive sable]

Bwaa

[rigid snow]

[clear sedge]

waaaaa

[tender river]

[opaque sigil]

[glad path]

[rigid snow]

oh it apparently didn’t it’s just the entry it deleted

[glad path]

but then i dug deeper, and [so and so]...

[real sierra]

I woke up with brain fog today

I feel

[opaque sigil]

[midnight sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-trash-spongebob-squidward-dumb-gif-6107304767584724449

[bitter quartz]

hi

does anybody want to help me create a local ai

so i can show off my class and use it

if yes, i would be thankful

[desert wave]

[rigid snow]

holy moly

[hollow spruce]

fogot item

[amber fractal]

classic geez

[rigid snow]

that a lot

[amber fractal]

We can help you help yourself, depending on what your looking for

[bitter quartz]

i need to get my ollama working on wsl

and make it like Neuro-sama

not to bully vedal

but like have fun

[uneven pulsar]

https://airi.moeru.ai/docs/en/
best place i could find

[bitter quartz]

isn't this link illegal?

it's like copyright

[rigid snow]

[uneven pulsar]

https://i.imgur.com/VzpwskV.jpeg

[amber fractal]

It is a github if you look a bit further

[uneven pulsar]

https://i.imgur.com/c6yfXlT.jpeg

[rigid snow]

why would it be

[amber fractal]

I'll give small bits of credit for this server

but the link itself is fine

[brisk laurel]

hey guys @bitter quartz is trying to make an ai with a hosting of a free server and their using ollama btw help them

[dry charm]

[obsidian mantle]

do i get token counter from here? https://github.com/chayleaf/toknt/releases/tag/latest

jar is archive in linux?

[dry charm]

jar is a java archive file, that you can execute

[obsidian mantle]

wait its not

[dry charm]

also you can open jar files as archive yes

[tender river]

jars work on both windows and linux

just run java -jar file.jar path/to/your-file.c

[obsidian mantle]

sudo apt install java first?

[tender river]

[obsidian mantle]

not so easy

[clear sedge]

https://tenor.com/view/holy-moly-gif-2379897567703251318

[opaque sigil]

you probably want the 2nd

[clear sedge]

i recommend installing sdkman

[tender river]

dont

its just for a single jar file

[opaque sigil]

[clear sedge]

https://sdkman.io/

get sdkman

NOW

or don't i'm not your mom

[brisk laurel]

sounds like an add MODS

[clear sedge]

no :(

[brisk laurel]

[obsidian mantle]

nice thank you guys

[clear sedge]

consider: sdkman

i rest my case

[obsidian mantle]

i just need it to run token counter program

[brisk laurel]

anyone?

[opaque sigil]

don't bother with sdkman, it's a waste of time here

[dry charm]

we have SDKMAn at home.
sdkman at home:

[clear sedge]

[brisk laurel]

thanks for the cake btw :3

[dry charm]

To be fair I have a good reason to do this

[opaque sigil]

wtf is this

do i even want to know

[dry charm]

nix config

[opaque sigil]

i mean yeah

i understand that part

but why this

[amber fractal]

so you can call different java versions by swapping the command

at least that's how I'd finish off this

[ruby siren]

asdf & mise are also great for managing dev tool versions

[dry charm]

Intellij and Rider doesn't know how to handle nix devenvs so its easier this way

[opaque sigil]

ah

fair enough then

[amber fractal]

Because the birthday boy is asking, this is all I got until more commits come in

I thought that was an embed frick

[rigid snow]

[amber fractal]

uhhhhhh

[torpid coral]

it looks a little cursed

[amber fractal]

@bitter quartz

[brisk laurel]

you mean me? im a boy now i guess

[amber fractal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1071784467036913664/1422432662026452992/screenshot.png?ex=68dd4fe6&is=68dbfe66&hm=e18685b7ce715a9eb3e7447793c2c4278d3e5309e67cff89a681d1c143b30834&

[bitter quartz]

yes

[brisk laurel]

@bitter quartz

[clear sedge]

🏳️‍⚧️

[rigid snow]

[amber fractal]

You know I forgot to check, sorry about that

[torpid coral]

uugh...

[brisk laurel]

im trans so its okay

[clear sedge]

that's no gnome, that's vir brevis diaboli

[rigid snow]

NO FUCKING SHOT it just works

[torpid coral]

i remember seeing something like this in the console when trying to study pointers...

[opaque sigil]

i checked the news earlier and didn't seem there was anything that would need manual intervention so makes sense that it just works ig

[amber fractal]

An app must have broken surelt

[opaque sigil]

you basically just replaced the entire system

[noble zodiac]

the days of arch just dying because you dont update it constantly are long over

[clear sedge]

*rch linux (derogatory)

[fading olive]

now go find all the .pacnew files you need to put in place

[rigid snow]

gnome theme broke a bit, one gnome tweak doesn't appear and a kernel module i manually patched didn't install, and gpu driver is weird and stripy but that's about it

like the display output is stripy idk how explain

this will do i suppose

and they move

weird

[amber fractal]

Is it a wayland scaling bug perhaps (I am just shooting blind at the issue)

[rigid snow]

i think i'm on xorg

i am

wait no i'm not

why

[amber fractal]

gnome dropping that backend probably

they've been making steps to completely removing it

[rigid snow]

wayland never played nicely with my system for some reason

it's cursed

[amber fractal]

gnome would like to call it a skill issue, get new hardware

[rigid snow]

yeah gpu drivers are acting up that's not the only issue

nvidia

[amber fractal]

It is always nvidia

[maiden geyser]

linux users trying not to blame nvidia for 1 minute (impossible)

[rigid snow]

i am not blaming nvidia i'm blaming nvidia-open

[stark needle]

i blame linux users

[obsidian mantle]

freeing more and more tokens
this code is becoming an absolute abomination

[sage crag]

lymsmssmararama

[amber fractal]

How many macros definitions

[obsidian mantle]

9 but im looking for more

[amber fractal]

Surely you have lists with commas

[rigid snow]

installed plasma, all issues fixed

[amber fractal]

Seems about right

[obsidian mantle]

sweet tokens

how do i even name something like this

[amber fractal]

delim

[obsidian mantle]

maybe sadface

);

[sharp mantle]

Sora 2 introduction in two minutes in case anyone is interested

[amber fractal]

sadwink maybe

[obsidian mantle]

sadwink hmm

sounds right

[sage crag]

birthday

[stray dragon]

i use pclose for that one

closing parentheses

[sage crag]

name it herbert

[stray dragon]

herbert is a good one

i agree with konii

[sage crag]

me too

soup

[stray dragon]

soup

[jovial remnant]

looks quite good

[rigid snow]

ye kinda cool but audio it generates is so fried

i guess for the better

[stray dragon]

bwaa

[sage crag]

sorry but

;}

is not a bwaa

all naming permissions revoked

[rigid snow]

the model is good but i think the tiktok like app is very cool and will hopefully keep slopmakers in their own bubble

[sage crag]

<- bwaa
<- bwaa
<- bwaa
<- bwaa

[stark needle]

bwaa

[tender river]

[obsidian mantle]

hold up im downloading paint net to show how it is bwaa

i see it

[rigid timber]

just use normal Paint, there's not really much difference between the two...

[obsidian mantle]

i need to rotate

hmm wait i could rotate in normal paint i need 90*

[sage crag]

you missed

[tender river]

[sage crag]

[obsidian mantle]

literally the same

[rigid timber]

I can see it

[sage crag]

you are banned from pattern recognition

revoking pattern recognition license

[obsidian mantle]

[sage crag]

not even similar

[sage crag]

while (true) {} awful

[obsidian mantle]

tips

[sage crag]

#define loop while(1) {

[obsidian mantle]

its literally used 1 time

[sage crag]

why use it at all then

use a goto

[sage crag]

while (1) {
  ...
}
```  (6 token)
```c
x:
  ...
  goto x;
``` (5 token)

[obsidian mantle]

but goto is more tokens

[sage crag]

[sage crag]

try counting

[obsidian mantle]

+2 tokens for #define itself

6=6

[tender river]

[obsidian mantle]

AND i cant save tokens with angy

[sage crag]

why define

no need for define use goto

[obsidian mantle]

oh wait

right

[sage crag]

[obsidian mantle]

[sage crag]

[sage crag]

melMoruen

neuroMlem

not same horizontal width

i hate kerning

[obsidian mantle]

no tokens

and now i dont have true angy

[sage crag]

[tender river]

cut it down to 468 still much work to do

[obsidian mantle]

its just 5 and 6 tokens which i save with my macros already

useless

[sage crag]

[obsidian mantle]

hmmm
can i macros part of variable name

[sage crag]

yes with pasting

#define ermify(x) x_##erm

[obsidian mantle]

ewww thats a lot of ()s

wait maybe i didnt get it

[sage crag]

skill issue

[tender river]

#define I int a##__LINE__ =

[obsidian mantle]

what even is the point, part of variable name itself is useless token-wise

some_var 1 token

so x r 3 tokens

why did i want to do it

[sage crag]

wont work need concat macro

[obsidian mantle]

what does ## do

[sage crag]

pasting

[stray dragon]

i have recursion in a prototype of my bot, and having stage1 and stage2 and stage3 wasn't that optimal

[obsidian mantle]

so your example turns to
x_ermify(x) erm

[stray dragon]

so i made a macro to take STAGE(1) and concat it into stage1

saved a few tokens

that's a usecase

[sage crag]

#define ermify(x) x_##erm

ermify(hello) => hello_erm

[obsidian mantle]

wait no i messed up

ohh

[stray dragon]

i will say that it does NOT like taking variables as an input unless those variables are also within a macro

if i want to do for(int i; i++<10;){STAGE(i)(function inputs);} then it just tries to do stagei(function inputs) every iteration

[real sierra]

wait t you're a genius

wait no you're not

I already bake inputs into my macros to avoid ()

I thought it was new tech for a second

ok I just don't want to be at university rn I'm going home

I'll come back later

[stray dragon]

my usage:

probably still a better way to do that but that requires much thinking and i'd rather try alternative search methods first

[real sierra]

BCLOSE

my greatest contribution to the field of computer science

[stray dragon]

as good a name as any

(it saves like 6 tokens lmao it's not that good)

sorry, 7

[tender river]

[real sierra]

it saves me like 40 tokens

[stray dragon]

how...

are you using multiline if statements every 2 lines or something

you need like 45 appearances of ){ for it to save that many tokens

seems excessive

[real sierra]

I have struct defs and a lot of functions

[stray dragon]

i found that in some cases, removing the functions and replacing them with macros was better

[real sierra]

that's why I have a } return rv; } void macro

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

I inline what I can

[stray dragon]

i see

[real sierra]

but yeah a macro could probably save me some tokens

don't need specify types

[sage crag]

int erm(int x) {
  return x + 1;
}
// can be
#define erm(x) ({ x + 1; })

[real sierra]

I need to rewrite my bot entirely

the architecture just doesn't support TTs as written

[sage crag]

and that's the general case, obviously with erm(x) in this case you can rewrite it as #define erm(x) x+1

[real sierra]

the entire game tree must be stored as a hash table instead of linked list

and I need to bake in mechanisms to prevent backpropogation looping

I think maybe if I shrink the bits used in the hash from 24 to 16

and then use the new 8 bits to store the depth of the occurrence

then I can avoid silly loops

and still get most of the benefit

[sage crag]

The application did not respond

[real sierra]

kid named application

[woven coral]

shiro\_nya

Server Avatar

[sage crag]

thinking...

[real sierra]

im got

[sage crag]

oh you can favourite the gif from in there

https://cdn.discordapp.com/avatars/196063748354473984/a_0e926fc106752c6c34ce72bc89a016dd.gif?size=4096

[real sierra]

[real sierra]

emote name

[sage crag]

who named that

[real sierra]

who indeed...

does it even make sense to have an array of structs

[rigid snow]

uploaded by [redacted]

[real sierra]

should I just have arrays for each parameter

[sage crag]

depends on how you tend to utilise the values

they have different locality and cache properties

thats mostly it

[real sierra]

e.g. instead of

struct {
 int erm;
 char e;
} items[10];

I go

int erm[10];
char e[10];

then passing struct is just passing index

fields accessed by erm[i] instead of item->erm

[sage crag]

if you need as ptr you can replace &item->erm with (erm + i)

why even use char

[real sierra]

for nice syntax I can even i[erm]

[sage crag]

honestly just use int for everything

int erm[10], e[10];

[real sierra]

entry size matters for TT

memory footprint is why I only use 24 of the 64 hash bits

can't store any more in mem limit

prof vanished and has been replaced

[sage crag]

#define decl(x, n) x[n];
decl(int erm, 10)

-1 token saved

token waste for free

[stray dragon]

can't you just index a few bits and then store the full hash in the entry to properly compare it

[real sierra]

yeah but that's not really the point

I don't have the tokens to invest in proper bucketing for my hash table

[sage crag]

char global_mem[50];

#define erm (int*)global_mem
#define e global_mem + 40

maybe something like this will have practical application

[real sierra]

so I just ignore collisions

I think collisions are rare enough that even if I lose one or two games to collisions i don't care

[stray dragon]

yeah not worth the tokens

[real sierra]

the tokens are better spent improving the bot elsewhere

so my hash table just stores one entry per index

and does not store the full hash period

[stray dragon]

i see

[real sierra]

collision? oh well, hope we generate better RNG hash values next time

[nocturne olive]

I still haven't continued my bot because I still have no clue why it's broken

Has anyone tried to reproduce the bug with my relevant parts of the code?

[obsidian mantle]

i looked at the bindings and didnt understand a thing

[night tapir]

what is the context? can you not just check for equality in the event of a hash collision?

[nocturne olive]

It's fairly simple, it's nearly direct bindings to the C API

[violet plover]

Anyone read those new research papers released yesterday from MIT and Deepmind, specifically the CHIMERA tests for visual models?

[obsidian mantle]

is it dna related

oh no

i just googled idk

[real sierra]

the context is the mini chess bot contest

[nocturne olive]

About how they work or how to use them?

[real sierra]

my source code length (complexity is maybe a better word?) has a limit

so I need to decide carefully what features I allocate that fixed budget toward

[obsidian mantle]

i wanted to trace that function that crashes, how it works and how can it crash
but i saw no code at all
its direct binding and i have no idea how it works

[nocturne olive]

Where it has the same name as the C function it just directly calls the C function

[obsidian mantle]

but then ...
why does it crash

[nocturne olive]

I don't care about the crash, I care about the return value causing the exception

[obsidian mantle]

there is some tricky part about function being enum but returning 0 converted to enum

and that enum doesnt have 0 in it

is that right?

[nocturne olive]

This is why

[obsidian mantle]

shiro add 0 NO_PIECE

[nocturne olive]

Now you know where the exception comes from, now figure out why the 0 comes into it

[obsidian mantle]

try it what if that works @nocturne olive add it into enum

its returning 0 which is not a member of enum

what if it becomes a member

[nocturne olive]

It would work, but I want to fix the 0 being returned in the first place

[obsidian mantle]

what do you want it to return if there is no piece?

[nocturne olive]

There SHOULD be a piece

Something is corrupting though

[obsidian mantle]

ohhh

[nocturne olive]

It's not about what causes the exception, it's about what causes the thing that causes the exception to trigger in this case

[obsidian mantle]

show sequence of moves when it crashes

[nocturne olive]

I'm checking the pieces either after making the move in the location the piece should end up in after the move, or before the move the location the piece starts in

[night tapir]

it needs to be fixed anyway

these functions can return 0

[nocturne olive]

Literally starting from default board state

And recursing

[obsidian mantle]

need exact sequence
then you can put that sequence manually so there is no doubt the code is correct

[nocturne olive]

Yeah I know it can return 0, once the root cause is identified and fixed for the INCORRECT 0 though I'll just make an invalid value return null

[nocturne olive]

It's not 1 sequence, just grab the code I provided in the GitHub issue, make it compileable and run it

Then you can get whatever info you want

[obsidian mantle]

nono i meant

you need one concrete sequence

a2a3 b2b3 something

then you do
makemove(a2a3)
makemove(b2b3)

and so on

[sage crag]

https://github.com/polyglotprog/simple-hash-functions/blob/main/demo/hash_functions.h

#define kr_hash uint64_t h = 0; while(h += *s + 31 * h, *s++); 

int main() {
    char *s = "test";
    kr_hash
    return h;
}

m

no clue how good this hash function is but i made it smaller

[nocturne olive]

If you want to figure it out you can just get what you need from the code I provided, I don't know how to get you what you want in any other form than a sequence of printed Move objects

[obsidian mantle]

but i dont even need that
im using cpp

[real sierra]

i using board hashes

[obsidian mantle]

maybe later on weekend

what if i actually love kotlin who knows

[real sierra]

hash table is storing position info after all

[obsidian mantle]

why not give it a glance

[sage crag]

me make small hash function

not useful

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

[olive sable]

i have ice cream

[night tapir]

I love kotlin I love how every line has 10 hidden operations

[olive sable]

[night tapir]

it's like cpp without the good parts of cpp

costful abstraction

[obsidian mantle]

so kotlin is c-based

[clear sedge]

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING

[sage crag]

a + b => add(a,b)

[obsidian mantle]

thats why you can almost directly take functions

[real sierra]

can I have some

[nocturne olive]

It's a JVM language

[night tapir]

kotlin runs primarily on the jvm

[obsidian mantle]

does it make jvm a c-based thing

or is c that good anyone can take its functions

[real sierra]

JVM implementation can be whatever based

[obsidian mantle]

or does it work in any-to-any language

[night tapir]

no, the developers were just smart enough to add support for one of the most bare necessities of a worthwhile language

[olive sable]

if you're here in 5 min sure. im not getting the box out of the freezer once i put it back tho

[sage crag]

phrrr

[night tapir]

can you define "c-based"?

[real sierra]

omw

[olive sable]

where do i get the shiro emotes?

[obsidian mantle]

i probably lack critical programming knowledge about how languages work

[real sierra]

I'll actually be in Belgium in March no joke

[olive sable]

[sage crag]

where is Belgium in March

and is it far from Belgium

[obsidian mantle]

my language which i work in at job treats DWORD and UINT32 as different types and you have to do DWORD_TO_UINT and back
kotlin, cpp, whatever
everything looks like a miracle to me

[sage crag]

dword size based on architecture

[real sierra]

calm down I'm going to a wedding lol

[olive sable]

i think it stays in roughly the same place relative to the earth's center

[opaque sigil]

(a, b) => _.+(_)

[nocturne olive]

There, that's 3 move sequences that bug

[sage crag]

• a b

[obsidian mantle]

its always 32bits in my field, there is literally not a single thing that has it other way

[olive sable]

[sage crag]

polymorphism is Planning Ahead™

[obsidian mantle]

and my code is stuffed with UINT_TO_DWORD(DWORD_TO_UINT(x - b))

[nocturne olive]

Oh wait I messed up

I didn't quite correctly remove stuff

[obsidian mantle]

because dword - dword isnt allowed

[nocturne olive]

Wait just a moment

[sage crag]

[night tapir]

is it just a macro that type casts

they're the same size idk what the point is

DWORD is just an outdated WinAPI type

[obsidian mantle]

the point is to block dumb people from messing up their variables and get more warnings (that are errors in this ide)

[night tapir]

smh they gotta clarify it's a u32

UINT32_t_TO_DWORD

[obsidian mantle]

its literally u32 and u32

no sign no nothing

cant get_bit from uints

must convert to dword

its not global, there are some IDEs that figured it out and dont do this shit

but some do

[real sierra]

gonna make my own OS where long is 2 bytes

[clear sedge]

i'm gonna make my own os where long is 1 bit

[obsidian mantle]

2 is long 😩

[nocturne olive]

Well now I'm even more confused
I'm doing something wrong and not getting the moves removed when they should be from the moves made list

[stray dragon]

if i want 8 bytes do i gotta do long long long long?

[obsidian mantle]

just make everything 8bytes

[real sierra]

no that's also 2 bytes

[stray dragon]

wtf

[real sierra]

valid according to the spec

[stray dragon]

horror

[obsidian mantle]

you have to make 4 different longs

[olive sable]

[obsidian mantle]

and compute them accordingly like they are part of one long

[olive sable]

[real sierra]

[stray dragon]

long
longer
longerer
longest

[obsidian mantle]

no its like

if you want 65536

[real sierra]

honestly I kinda like this, it's very unambiguous

[obsidian mantle]

you have 2 longs
and you see if you add 1 to 65535 first long then you add 1 to second long

and have 1 and 0 long

[real sierra]

you obviously can't do math between a long and longer

[stray dragon]

the best part is that longerer is more characters than longest

[clear sedge]

if(sizeof(int) == sizeof(long long)) {
  fprintf(stderr, "L bozo pick a better os\n");
  exit(1);
}```

[obsidian mantle]

long_to_longer

[sage crag]

wrong emoji

[real sierra]

honestly based

I don't support inferior operating systems

don't run my godly code on garbage

[clear sedge]

real and trude

[real sierra]

[maiden geyser]

shorter is longer than longer

[nocturne olive]

So I'm clearly doing something wrong, there is a code path that doesn't correctly undo moves and I don't know where it is

SINCE WHEN HAS THIS BEEN HERE?

I think I found what ruins things

Oh, no

It's not it

[sage crag]

[nocturne olive]

Well still, that was a potential issue source but not the source of this issue

There is still code paths not accounted for

I did not expected it to be so weird

Have I been an idiot this whole time?

[obsidian mantle]

i still dont like inability to check if the square is empty

[nocturne olive]

I'll fix that once I fully identify where the issue comes from and confirm that the API is not at fault and I'm the idiot here

[stray dragon]

wait you're right

that sucks

[obsidian mantle]

i do it couple of times

oh actually i do it every step to get raw square value

its just 1 line

[stray dragon]

yeah i do it lots

didn't realize it was wrong

[obsidian mantle]

but it works in c?

[stray dragon]

stupid ass enums

[obsidian mantle]

it returns 0

[stray dragon]

oh so i'm good

still seems weird

why start from 1

is shiro matlab brained

smh

[nocturne olive]

Ok so apparently tracking the move sequence length was all I needed to figure out I'm somehow an idiot
I have NO IDEA where the code path that breaks is though

[obsidian mantle]

fixed?

[nocturne olive]

But wasting more tokens on having the early returns handled right on the spot does appear to have cleared the issue

[obsidian mantle]

there should be "piecetype" for no-piece

[nocturne olive]

I still don't know what the exact code path that caused it was though

[obsidian mantle]

because it exists

[nocturne olive]

AKA null

[obsidian mantle]

just 0

[nocturne olive]

No null better

[obsidian mantle]

you can use it in arrays

i only know lua's null

when you can check if variable itself exists

very cool

[nocturne olive]

In Kotlin null acts as the absense of a value but still has a type

So you can use it in an array like Array<PieceType?> where the ? means nullable

[obsidian mantle]

how will that array look like

[nocturne olive]

Just like a regular JVM array?

[obsidian mantle]

[null, 1, 2 ,..]?

[nocturne olive]

Except some elements are null

[obsidian mantle]

so array can have random types

[nocturne olive]

[null, PieceType.PAWN, PieceType.BISHOP, ...]

Since it's an array of PieceType

[obsidian mantle]

can you have array which is [int, float, null, int, foo()]

[nocturne olive]

Eh, that would be an Array<Any?> but nobody sensible would use that

[obsidian mantle]

coool

iirc lua has same thing

idk why it was useful

anyway

sooo i shrunk my bot to 700 tokens

plenty of space

improvements ahead

[nocturne olive]

My bot is apparently incredibly slow at 3 recursion

[obsidian mantle]

this weekend is going to be busy

[nocturne olive]

Probably because I'm doing the most horrible recursion implementation possible

[obsidian mantle]

i just do "my_turn->enemy_turn->my_turn->enemy_turn" no pruning yet

adding +1 makes moves last 15+ seconds

but analysis is alright so it doesnt suck completely

heavy surface recursion

[nocturne olive]

3 recursion levels where each recursion level goes trough all moves on the bot's turn and all moves on all enemy turns coming off recursively on each of those enemy moves until max depth is reached for me causes moves to take minutes

I don't know which part is the slow one

I hope it's at least still going and not just stuck in some kind of infinite loop

[rigid timber]

upgrade from "happy birthday" to "happy anniversary"

[obsidian mantle]

every level of recursion should be like x20-40 slower than previous level

unless you got very little moves

shiro getting married

[nocturne olive]

It's still not done I started it I don't even know how long ago

I hope I haven't caused a different edge case code path that crashes it somehow

[real sierra]

the cursed irony of this is not only that I'm not the one getting married, but that the wedding is on my birthday

[nocturne olive]

Let me just remove some useless debugging code

[obsidian mantle]

what a coincidence 🎂

100% chance

[real sierra]

very rare very coincidental

[rigid snow]

what isn't on your birthday

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

wedding also on my birthday, im also not getting married

can confirm

[rigid snow]

are you sure you're not

[sage crag]

93%

[rigid snow]

[real sierra]

what happened to the other 7%

[sage crag]

hungry

[real sierra]

???

[rigid snow]

you heard her

[sage crag]

ated the percents

[trim valve]

is inhaling mild amount of bleach bad

[rigid snow]

yes?

[trim valve]

[sage crag]

when we say mild amount do we mean

second-hand smoke or

gargled bottle

[trim valve]

yeah second hand smoke

[sage crag]

[rigid snow]

smoking bleach

[sage crag]

should be okay

[trim valve]

konii how many days do I have to live

[sage crag]

unless you are allergic to bleach (it exist)

[sage crag]

3 (unrelated)

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

in what context did you inhale bleach

[trim valve]

kitchen cleaning

with lots of bleach involved

[real sierra]

probably fine

[sage crag]

[trim valve]

I have photos with a side by side of before/after which are pretty funny

[rigid snow]

before inhaling bleach/after inhaling bleach

[real sierra]

if you were cleaning the bathroom I'd be a lot more worried

[fair horizon]

Could've been worse, could've mixed it with some acid

[trim valve]

nah just dish soap

[real sierra]

that's fine that's a base

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hollow-night-silksong-faridulasimanet-sherma-silksong-gif-171830693794769624

[trim valve]

who would've guessed my uni does not actually deep clean

despite saying they do

[real sierra]

believing anything the university says

[trim valve]

at least I got a free tray

:3

[real sierra]

universities are one of the worst businesses in existence

the amount of platitudes they provide to avoid meaningful change is unbelievable

tho if it free then I guess not as bad

[nocturne olive]

Would be cool to know why 3 levels of recursion is so horribly slow

[sage crag]

[nocturne olive]

I have no clue how to profile something like this

[obsidian mantle]

maybe you have heavy processing like me

when i remove all processing i can go deeper

its 20x20x20x20x20... average per every level

[real sierra]

chess is a very exponential problem

[obsidian mantle]

so if you have 1 second calculation on some level, next level will be 20

or move if you got 40 moves

[real sierra]

complexity is something like (moves evaluated per depth) ^ (depth)

so increasing the depth will explode your time taken

best way to tackle that is to shrink the base and evaluate fewer moves to a greater depth

small performance gains matter too but I think they have a dismayingly small impact in the big picture

[nocturne olive]

I just wonder what consumes the mos time here since it's been taking literally like 10 minutes or something by now

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

a board on average has like 25 moves for each side or something like that

[obsidian mantle]

how long does it take if you have 1 less level of recursion

[real sierra]

so you would expect each depth added to take 25² times longer than (depth-1), one factor of 25 per color

[nocturne olive]

It's semi fast

[obsidian mantle]

i mean, 1 second, 10 seconds?

[nocturne olive]

Like a couple seconds

[obsidian mantle]

next level should be at least 20-40 seconds

but 10 minutes is weird

[real sierra]

1 second * 25² is just over 10 mins

[obsidian mantle]

if you count 1 level as full move then its even more

its 30x30 seconds 900 seconds

15 minutes

[sage crag]

[rigid timber]

gotta do at least some very basic pruning, not every move is worth searching

[obsidian mantle]

same

[real sierra]

^

[obsidian mantle]

i have no pruning yet

[real sierra]

pruning is crirical

[sage crag]

pruning is for people without quantum computers

[rigid timber]

good pruning is one of the hard things

[nocturne olive]

Yeah I stop on any move that leads to a draw or checkmate I think

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

even if it's just a super basic heuristic to consider only a subset of the legal moves

[rigid timber]

pretty sure Shiro won't run the tournament on a quantum computer

smh Shiro

[real sierra]

evaluating this requires simulating deeper, this isn't pruning

[obsidian mantle]

shiro can you run tournament on quantum computer please

[sage crag]

shiro please run on a quantum computer so everything can be precalculated to depth 10000

[nocturne olive]

I'm gonna guess when doing 3 full moves from the start position basically no moves are not being evaluated

[rigid timber]

well yeah, that's how it would be

[real sierra]

quantum computer is not in the budget sorry

[rigid timber]

you can't win in 3 moves

[obsidian mantle]

vedal probably pays you like 100k per month

smh

[nocturne olive]

So I guess that may be why it's so slow

[real sierra]

you can in 4

[opaque sigil]

you're essentially trying to simulate the entire game tree

which is just not feasible

[rigid timber]

3 < 4

[sage crag]

the humble e4 e5 qg4

[obsidian mantle]

my bot won couple of games in 3-4 turns i think

[real sierra]

very astute

[obsidian mantle]

that famous mate

[rigid timber]

I'm famous for my math knowledge

[nocturne olive]

Yeah this bot is too dumb to be continued using
I'm gonna have to start over from scratch

[obsidian mantle]

i think its 4? its pawn + queen vs pawn and pawn right?

oh wait its 2

[rigid timber]

you don't, just add some pruning

[real sierra]

I'm also starting from scratch om

[obsidian mantle]

[real sierra]

how many bits do you think is sufficient to store the chess turn count

[obsidian mantle]

i thought about that but sounds bad

[rigid timber]

so the tournament will be a bunch of half-finished bots

[nocturne olive]

I'm too dumb for this stuff
I'm gonna have to look up what actual Chess engines do and just copy techniques

[real sierra]

I'm thinking 8 bits should be enough, if my bot takes any longer than that it deserves to lose

[obsidian mantle]

actually not bad if you see that all your calculations took like 0.2 seconds (for example late game with minimum amount of moves)

[sage crag]

f3 e6 h3 and mate is next move

thats only 2 moves, or a total of 4 ply

[real sierra]

it's not a cop out to research some chess engine techniques, choosing which to implement and how is equally a challenge

I think you will find inspiration through research but I don't think it will make it any easier

[rigid snow]

ye the token limit is there for a reason

[nocturne olive]

I was just kinda avoiding it for MK1 to see what I could do fully on my own
I guess I've reached my limit at a bot that recurses 2 steps and loses to a bot that doesn't recurse at all

[rigid timber]

omw to make a bot that exclusively uses piece-square tables and nothing else...

[real sierra]

it's not wasted time, you've learned a lot about what works and what doesn't, and the general pattern you're using is still valid

[nocturne olive]

Well I guess I do now have a lot more Kotlin STD functions at my disposal

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

if you squint, this is what NN bots do

[rigid timber]

true

[real sierra]

just lots of really fucked up piece square tables

[rigid timber]

NNUE in 1k tokens

[real sierra]

@stray dragon

[sage crag]

sssssss

[rigid timber]

I'm not surprised at all

[stray dragon]

yeah about what i'm doing lol

[nocturne olive]

It would be funny to try a NN approach but that would take me learning how to implement very complex stuff and I don't think I want to bother with that

[stray dragon]

really not that complex honestly

[sage crag]

[stray dragon]

• you'll probably want to tune some values over time

[real sierra]

harder than you give it credit for if you've never done it

[rigid timber]

real, I wouldn't know where to begin

[stray dragon]

it's matmul + optimizer + some sense as to how to set it up

[nocturne olive]

Well it would require me to figure out how to make data for this kinda stuff, how to get a model trained in Python translated to Kotlin, how to compute it manually in Kotlin, and how to efficiently store the model

[real sierra]

again, each of those is harder than you give it credit for if you've never done it

especially in a token limited situation

[stray dragon]

doesn't need to be in python

you're thinking massive models

[nocturne olive]

Well PyTorch is all I know for training

I don't know how to implement backpropegation from scratch

[real sierra]

calculus

[stray dragon]

don't really need backprop for a tiny neural net

[real sierra]

determine the backpropogation formula from the partial derivatives and code it in

but yeah also

[real sierra]

you're probably not training while bot is running

[stray dragon]

it might help with training, sure, but for something this small? doesn't really matter much

[nocturne olive]

Yeah thus probably would train in Python if I was to do it since there you get PyTorch

[real sierra]

did you just parameter sweep or something

or do it empirically

[nocturne olive]

But I don't know how to do much of anything other than use preformatted datasets

[stray dragon]

i've just done SGD over the whole thing, get loss function, update based on change on loss

[nocturne olive]

And I only know how to use a PyTorch model in PyTorch

[stray dragon]

with Adam in there because it was simple

no backprop

[rigid timber]

I know what half of those things mean

[nocturne olive]

Anyway I don't think I'll be doing a NN for this Chess thing, probably just trying again but with research this time

[rough bloom]

how sgd without backprop
no backprop -> no credit assignment -> no useful parameter updates

[sage crag]

wqwqwqwqw

[rigid snow]

wrong

[sage crag]

remove before microwaving

[nocturne olive]

Doing whatever other Chess engine thingies do

[real sierra]

oh well

[rigid snow]

rererererer

[real sierra]

MCTS avoids these shenanigans

[nocturne olive]

What is that?

[sage crag]

[sage crag]

monte-carlo tree search

[real sierra]

MCTS is what I use for my bot

it wastes so many tokens do not recommend

actual token fire

[nocturne olive]

How interesting

I wonder how small it could be made in Kotlin

[stray dragon]

simply:
add random values to the parameters
test the neural network and get the loss
compare it to loss from last step
scale the added random values depending on that difference
repeat

[sage crag]

[stray dragon]

if necessary i add backprop

[real sierra]

the general idea is that you replace the evaluation function with a win rate that you get by playing random games from a position and seeing how often you win

then I don't need to evaluate anything