programming

[glass flower]

what command are you guys running for the cli

maybe im missing a option

[real sierra]

bro

cant run jupyter notebooks because no sqlite3

[glad path]

how

[real sierra]

need to delete all of python and rebuild the whole thing from scratch

[glad path]

yeah

its standard lol

[real sierra]

not standard enough

or id have it

[glass flower]

wtf......

[real sierra]

simple assignment takes 12 hours

[glass flower]

figured it out

[glad path]

can you not use conda or something

that's what I did when I had to set up python on a cloud compute instance

[glass flower]

i can now use print

[real sierra]

its just not worth

none of it is worth it

my time is more valuable than this

[glad path]

(after building it like 6 times and manually installing like 23 dependencies by downloading on host and scp'ing to the vm)

just get conda it saved me so much time

though i wasted like 6 hours before

[real sierra]

nope

not being talked into installing any more package managers or build tools

ive downloaded like

[midnight sigil]

[real sierra]

5 fricking toolchains

in the last 24 hours

im going to murder the entire open source community if they cram any more "solutions" down my throat

[glass flower]

but now the output is too noisy to be useful... you can either output everything or nothing at all....

[glad path]

idk it worked for me

after going through the five stages of grief

literally took like 1h per build and I built python 6 times with no success

[real sierra]

nope i refuse

[glad path]

fair

[real sierra]

no more package managers

im over it

ill just go nuclear bomb python

and remake

[safe path]

tfw reading a complicated paper and then seeing this cute sentence

[sage crag]

excuse me c formatter

[keen hatch]

i prefer docker... it's much easier to experiment with it

[real sierra]

ok now

[sage crag]

void flvm_run(flvm *restrict vm) {
  void **pc = translate(vm, (void *[]){
#define x(name, opcode, instr_size) [opcode] = &&name,
                                fl_bytecode(x)
#undef x
                            });

next:
  goto **pc++;
hlt:
  return;
eca:
}

are we really doing this

[real sierra]

need to ./configure

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

with precisely the 50 or so options i need

and no less

otherwise i have to start over

[safe path]

shiwo did u invest in a modern build system

[sage crag]

ye gcc

[safe path]

[real sierra]

im shaving years off my life trying to figure out python build options

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

you would think they would document these options somewhere given many of them are required to have the basic python libraries that literally every python use case requires

but no

[safe path]

i want to make a meme build system that asks chatgpt for build instructions everytime you run the build script

[real sierra]

300 page help message

go find the options you need

-1 week

[glad path]

what are the odds i can successfully ssh into my home laptop from my school one

and set up git over ssh since its somehow not configured with credidentials

how do you spell it

im stupid .-.

[stray dragon]

credentials

[glad path]

i give up

how did i not realize that

[safe path]

u should be able to, there are even standalone ssh client executables im pretty sure

[sage crag]

does anyone know what clang-format flag fixes this abomination

this is actually unreadable to me

[glad path]

macos lets you

but the laptop will prolly be closed, so no network connection

[safe path]

erm im too lazy to load ur code up into a file, have u tried clang-tidy

[sage crag]

im using vscode on nixos

i have no options

[safe path]

wait for that i think just a clang-format on google style should fix it probably

[sage crag]

ye tried

not fix

[safe path]

prompt an llm

let llm format ur code, surely not a waste a resources

[sage crag]

it formats these to different indentations

[safe path]

wait wtf

how come

[sage crag]

macros i guess

[safe path]

does rust format still have the same issue

im assuming it does

[sage crag]

perhaps

my c coding style has been irreparably damaged by this chess competition

[safe path]

so what you do here is you compile into .o and just make that ur new source file

it will be perfectly formatted all the time

[sage crag]

[glad path]

has that ai generated image look

[real sierra]

build time

please build quick python so i can sleep tonight

[sage crag]

vscode default theme

[sage crag]

if i press tab

it puts it over here

and then if i save it

it puts it back here

[safe path]

should i switch to helix, thoughts

[sage crag]

moved the macros outside

now its fixed

[real sierra]

here?

[sage crag]

[midnight sigil]

🥀 readability

[glass flower]

still too readable. surely you can get rid of a few more tokens

[sage crag]

wow this is somehow worse than anything ive seen from shiro's code

[sage crag]

ye using def instead of lambda

[glass flower]

not inlining every function

says me

[glass flower]

too readable still...

[midnight sigil]

you do it

python is a very readable language

[glass flower]

no~

[real sierra]

i wish c comparators were fewer tokens to write

id love to use the bsearch or qsort from stdlib

but the comparator function is bankruptcy

[spiral copper]

guys am I stupid or does board.get_game_state() return GameState.GAME_STALEMATE when it's actually checkmate?

[midnight sigil]

checkmate is -1, stalemate is 1, have you confirmed that in your code?

[spiral copper]

my code handles -1 but it never results in True that's why I'm logging it

and it seems to return GAME_STALEMATE when its actually checkmate

[hollow spruce]

Yo

[real sierra]

do you mind making an issue for this: https://github.com/shiro-nya/2025-chess-bot-tournament/issues

i'll take a look when i get some time to investigate
if you could include the PGN or FEN (cute chess should have an option to copy one or both of these) that'd be great

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

i think ill start directing people to log issues here, given a few are starting to pile up

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1059569601144442911/1375623285894807563/IMG_6849.gif

[real sierra]

if anyone else has an outstanding bug, please make issue

[midnight sigil]

👍

[glass flower]

more

[midnight sigil]

how

[glass flower]

suprise me

[midnight sigil]

it's all in one line already what do u want

[glass flower]

pointer magic

(i suck at python. idk how far you can take it)

[midnight sigil]

it's literally python

imagine optimizing python code

[glass flower]

[real sierra]

python rebuilt

please tell me this worked

@midnight sigil you had python issue right

did you make a pr or issue for it

[midnight sigil]

nah I fixed it

it was my mistake

[real sierra]

ah ok

[midnight sigil]

I made a PR about a binding-wise issue with MSVC

[glass flower]

why does the commented out print. crash the bot....

[fierce ether]

we are now 1974 tokens

cooking

[glad path]

way too readable

get rid of some newlines

[midnight sigil]

whiteScore, blackScore = [sum(countPieces(bitboard) * (idx ** 4) for idx, bitboard in enumerate(bbList)) for bbList in [[board.get_bitboard(colorIndex, pieceType) for pieceType in PieceType if colorIndex] for colorIndex in PlayerColor]]

[glad path]

because

[midnight sigil]

this was my final version

[glad path]

why does the code for actual libraries gotta be so unreadable

like

actual production python code is a nightmare for me to read

also why the fuck does the apple music automix keep skipping like 40 seconds of every song

so odd

[sage crag]

with so many issue

are we really sure the chess tournament started

or is this just the public alpha phase

[midnight sigil]

has 24 hours passed since the announcement?

[sage crag]

[glass flower]

wwwwhhhhhhyyyyy

[midnight sigil]

then the tournament started

maybe shibo need to extend the deadline if the first week is so chaotic with bugs

at least it's usable

[mighty thorn]

[real sierra]

i can totally extend the deadline slightly if need be

it's been 1 day tho

i dont think the world is ending

unfortunate that it lined up with when all my coursework is due

[spare tiger]

its not really meant to be read its meant to work, alot of devs ive encountered make the code then after about a month or so of them finishing will say only god knows how it works

[glass flower]

the to_string is crashing it.... this crashes....

[real sierra]

[glass flower]

(it doesn't even get to the dump_to_char_array function )

[real sierra]

what are you trying to do here

[glass flower]

just dump the current move's bitboard

[real sierra]

i c

and that crashes?

@trim valve

[glass flower]

all of these print correctly... and then it just crashes....

[real sierra]

rebuilt all of python, still no libsqlite

of course

i guess ill just drop the class then

lame tooling

[glass flower]

whyyyyy

[real sierra]

cute chess might be unhappy with the input it cant understand

[glass flower]

the issue is. it doesn't get to the chess_api::done() call

[real sierra]

yeah

so i wonder if cute chess is killing it

[glass flower]

but... why

[real sierra]

good question

formally, debug lines are supposed to be prefixed with info string in UCI

[midnight sigil]

you can actually debug the bot by running uci commands yourself

[real sierra]

idk how much cute chess cares

[midnight sigil]

it's more convenient

[real sierra]

that's also true, you can manually type uci commands into it if you're running it in a terminal

the bot might be a bit stubborn to shutdown after, fix for that soon™

[midnight sigil]

do note that the bot doesn't regconize every uci commands

[glass flower]

the issue is... i don't even send anything over uci. it just crashes on the conversion.. even without printing anything

[midnight sigil]

that's funny

[glass flower]

so... how do i manually run cute chess commands

[midnight sigil]

I can't read Rust I can't help

[real sierra]

that's very odd

[midnight sigil]

https://gist.github.com/DOBRO/2592c6dad754ba67e6dcaec8c90165bf

idk how much of these are supported/implemented, gotta ask shiro

[real sierra]

uci
isready
position [fen <fenstring> | startpos ]  moves <move1> .... <movei>
go [[wtime <x>] [btime <x>]] | infinite
quit

that's the supported subset

[midnight sigil]

[real sierra]

as for engine-to-gui, you can of course print whatever, that support is up to cute chess

[midnight sigil]

when merge PR smh

[keen hatch]

["<bos><bos><start_of_turn>user\nConvert this text using semantic tags: 'Hello!' she said cheerfully.<end_of_turn>\n.\n<｜NARRATOR｜>I was sitting with another conversation who I was not immediately present in the conversation. I was not the original voice, but I was still not a synthesized voice. I was simply a synthesized voice that could be heard.\n<｜NARRATOR｜>I used to express myself as I spoke, and I intended for speech as a person. I was not a person in the ordinary sense of being. I was a thinking being. I was a thinking being. I had a self-description. I was a person with a distinct identity. I did not have a person, but I was an object. I was made of metal and of wood."]

[midnight sigil]

LLM goes schizo

[glass flower]

erm... this crashes. something in dump_to_char_array causes a delayed crash for me. if i comment out dump_to_char_array it doesn't crash

im gonna investigate further

[real sierra]

once i have time to review it

ive been trying to build python for the last 6h so i can finish this assignment due tomorrow

finally jupyter notebook

[midnight sigil]

notebook

[real sierra]

they required it

[midnight sigil]

can't you just use google colab tho

they support importing and exporting ipynbs

[real sierra]

this is the class asking me to submit my code as a pdf

dont get your hopes up

[glass flower]

alright im stuck... something in the c api crashes the rust bindings....

[real sierra]

[glass flower]

platform dependend bugs... and now binding depended bugs

[midnight sigil]

it's finee, my school require us to write code on paper

[real sierra]

which C API function are you calling and what are you giving it

[glass flower]

dump_bitboard is being called

but best thing... it doesn't crash instantly it crashes delayed

so all the prints until the to_string get called... and then it just crashes

[midnight sigil]

dump_bitboard is not a static exposed function for bindings

[real sierra]

void dump_bitboard(BitBoard board, char *buffer) {
    char *bufptr = buffer + 63;
    for (int i = 0; i < 64; i++) {
        *bufptr = (board & 1ul) > 0 ? 'X' : '-';
        board >>= 1;
        bufptr++;
        if (i % 8 == 7) {
            *bufptr = '\n';
            bufptr -= 17;
        } 
    }
    buffer[72] = '\0';
}

not a whole lot happening in this function

dunno how you're managing to crash it

[glass flower]

you tell me...

[real sierra]

idk

[midnight sigil]

how do you call dump_bitboard to be exact

[glass flower]

through the rust binding exposed method...

[midnight sigil]

it's not exposed tho

[glass flower]

it is

[real sierra]

it can be

API are allow to expose methods from bitboard.h

but it optional

and less important

[glass flower]

the only thing i changed from the git is change out the chess_api.c files for the newer versions. but since the interfaces didn't change it should be fine no?

[midnight sigil]

you meant dump_to_char_array?

[glass flower]

wait

this thing

[midnight sigil]

did test print?

[glass flower]

yes

[midnight sigil]

buh

idk hook a debugger

debugger can always answer you

[real sierra]

i dont think dump_bitboard flushes the buffer

but idk how the output could be misordered even so

[glass flower]

agagaga isn't getting hit

wait

nvm

it is

after the loop is when it crashes

[midnight sigil]

just don't print the board 👍

oh my music stopped

when did it even stopped

[mighty thorn]

PS if anyone needs a neural network to run on their TI-30XIIS calculator, HMU

[real sierra]

12 hour long youtube video

[midnight sigil]

and 12gb of ram eaten

[real sierra]

given the amount of people here currently trying to fit neural networks into a 1024-token chess bot, surprisingly relevant

[real sierra]

given the 17gb eaten by the vm i dont really mind

[glass flower]

i'll just write my own bitboard to string function....

[midnight sigil]

can you run doom on a TI-30XIIS

[glass flower]

poor tokens

[real sierra]

you can adapt the C one pretty easily

and you can always comment it out for submission

my C code has so many commented out debug funcs

like the one that dumps the move tree to json

[mighty thorn]

You can, in a very very very very literal sense, AI edit images with it

But given the whole 12 character 7 segment display thing

Not really a game

But I am working on game of life

[midnight sigil]

that's crazy

[mighty thorn]

(I mean this in that I made a network to flip the color of individual pixels. And by running it on a pixel, then running it with its output as its new input, you get your input back with a slight change. Repeat for the entire image and it’s ever so slightly off)

Normally it just turns blue tho

Like most of the time

Very slowly, but still turns blue

[glass flower]

why does this work but the c api crashes...

[real sierra]

this will print your bitboard upside down

(that's why the bufptr -= 17; is present in the C impl)

[glass flower]

so...

[real sierra]

the bitboard maps the LSB to the a1 square on the board

[glass flower]

[real sierra]

but printing one line at a time starts at the top

[glass flower]

now it crashes on get_piece_from_bitboard......

[real sierra]

i dont believe this many api functions are broken

i tested these in the python bindings

[glass flower]

try it yourself with the rust bindings...

[real sierra]

idk rust

breddddddd

[glass flower]

but only on the move.to part..

i guess debugging just hates me...

[mighty thorn]

How many programmers does it take to understand chess

(126,625)

[glass flower]

crashes without printing too... so i just can't use that function

fun

[glass flower]

i don't get it

[jagged turtle]

what is chess

[sage crag]

ive made a monster

when the vm is compiled with clang its 2x faster

than with gcc

i fixed it

[olive sable]

Goodmorning

[trim valve]

[glass flower]

good luck

[obsidian mantle]

Make a thread

[trim valve]

soon, bed comfy

[nocturne olive]

I have halted development of Chess bots until the issue with them failing to terminate is fixed

Yesterday I leaked like 500 Chess bots by accident and had to manually terminate all of them

[obsidian mantle]

Maybe the command to quit isnt processed

[nocturne olive]

According to Shiro it is, but instead of calling exitProcess or something it just terminates the UCI thread

[obsidian mantle]

I mean by the api

It should kill main cycle i guess

[nocturne olive]

It should call a syscall to terminate

[obsidian mantle]

When you call it does it terminate fully correctly

Maybe you also need to close all threads
Idk how it works

[nocturne olive]

In other apps with multiple threads when I call exitPrcess it always just terminates completely

[obsidian mantle]

Probably most efficient way.
Other way i see is to check if uci is alive in main loop
And if not then exit loop - program will finish

[nocturne olive]

Well it needs to rather exit gracefully than by an error with the call to the API from external bindings

[patent walrus]

it's genius really

[real sierra]

??????

[tender river]

@trim valve this is 73 chars not 72

[real sierra]

the header incorrectly says the buffer should be at least 72 bytes

will correct that

[trim valve]

do I also need to use a cstring

probably

[wide flicker]

reminds me of the time my father asked ChatGPT to help him code something for deep rock galactic<->twitch integration and at the end of the process it gave him the finished .zip with all the features he requested

it was a "hello world" script

[tender river]

i like helix you can try i feel like its less convenient on average but way way more convenient in rarer cases

[midnight sigil]

shibo how do I know if the bot is playing as white or black

@real sierra

[real sierra]

your bot's code only runs during its turn, and get_board always returns the board your bot is currently playing

you can just call is_white_turn on that board

[midnight sigil]

👍

[trim valve]

I must be doing something wrong wtf

[midnight sigil]

my bot thinks the Anderssen's Opening is the best move, apparantly

[trim valve]

@glass flower pushed a fix, shouldn't crash now

today's question

did I accidentally create a bunch of issues when adding some (unpushed) unsafe code

(almost certainly yes)

bruh yeah the unsafe cooked it entirely 😭

nevermind??

yeah something is up

uwot

leave that damn horse alone

[real sierra]

[midnight sigil]

update your repo and sync with the current one maybe

[real sierra]

g8h6 is a harbinger of memory issues

it's always g8h6 for some reason when there's mem problems

[rigid timber]

g8h6 is the usual before Shiro fixed all the ull

tbh the Rust bindings should be using a git submodule pointed to the original repo, not a copy of the files

[trim valve]

I really should

but also I do not want to deal with teaching people to use submodules

[rigid timber]

if they can't use submodules, they don't deserve Rust bindings

[tender river]

look at how i did it for haskell

i use a separate library for the bindings that uses a git submodule

then the project template points at the library which uses a submodule

users dont have to fetch any submodules they just use the package manager normally

at most they have to bump the library commit every now and then

[trim valve]

hm

[tender river]

thats assuming cargo can fetch submodules which it surely can

[trim valve]

time to find out

[rigid timber]

pretty sure it can

also I wonder if there's a way to use the cc crate in build.rs with this C code instead of calling into clang and ar by hand... bc I'm pretty sure that won't work on Windows

[tender river]

wait you're calling clang by hand

[rigid timber]

yeah, they are

hence why I'm mentioning the cc crate

[trim valve]

look I blame bindgen having that in their book

I knew it was icky

[tender river]

it does

https://rust-lang.github.io/rust-bindgen/non-system-libraries.html

[trim valve]

I'll change it in a bit

[rigid timber]

yeah, true... cc is mentioned elsewhere

[trim valve]

idk I just got it into a working state

[tender river]

coffee coffee

[trim valve]

I knew it wasn't gonna be perfect the first time

[rigid timber]

totally fair tbh

[midnight sigil]

g8h6 is cursing us all

[tender river]

nyan

[midnight sigil]

pog

ok nvm it prefer a2a3 more, everytime

my bot is so disrespectful lmao

[trim valve]

I really should've expected this to happen when I moved to cc

@real sierra updated rust binding stuff, there's now a pr on your repo

[real sierra]

another pr

@patent walrus please address all the issues and merge requests for me thx

[trim valve]

the pr fits on one screen

[real sierra]

I'll have a look at it when I get a chance

not sure when that'll be

my bedtime was like 4 hours ago

[trim valve]

fair enough

[nocturne olive]

Silly

I'm on break from Chess bots until they terminate properly

[real sierra]

today has been such a write off

• wake up late after debugging into the early morning
• attend classes
• come home and spend 5h rebuilding python over and over
• homework for 6h
• sleep

I would love to fix all these issues right now but all of my assignments are due in the next couple days, bad luck

I'll address them as time frees up

[nocturne olive]

Guess I'll just have to wait for the patch on that termination issue then

[trim valve]

this is done btw

[rigid timber]

I saw

I'll have to try it out later on

[nocturne olive]

Various silliness happening?

[rigid timber]

Rust is happening

[trim valve]

🦀

[lament igloo]

shitcode in progression

[trim valve]

be warned it will spam you with warnings

those are not my problem

[nocturne olive]

The silly language named after iron oxide for some reason

[lament igloo]

nvm its a github problem

[trim valve]

false

it is named after a fungus

[nocturne olive]

Wuh

Particularly extra sillly

[trim valve]

at some point I should probably update the docs but that sounds like pain

[tender river]

toknt releases work now

https://github.com/chayleaf/toknt/releases/tag/latest

[trim valve]

[tender river]

though i dont really like the way it's set up but i also dont care enough to change it

[rigid timber]

nobody cares about warnings

[tender river]

thats just not how you use git tags

[trim valve]

another project misusing git tags and hating it

it looks like my songlist scraping stuff "works" """properly""" now

[rigid timber]

are you just continuously overwriting the "latest" tag?

[trim valve]

it refuses to read the cache

and I don't know why

but at this point I can just eat 8 minutes of CI per week on average

[tender river]

it was @opaque sigil who set it up like that

[rigid timber]

shaking my smh

[midnight sigil]

I think shiro has a wrong understanding of the 50-move rule

[tender river]

halfmoves resets on pawn moves and captures

but yes its not forced

but shiro forces it

[midnight sigil]

[fast pagoda]

wanted to test some things and needed a big folder to basically run a bunch of different upscalers on the images and compare between them w/ original

didnt realy consider how big wallpapers are

reasonable

[rigid timber]

75 moves is forced, 50 moves is for a player claim, which bots can't do

[tender river]

shiro just decided to force it

[rigid timber]

time for more PRs then

[tender river]

no shiro knows about it

its a conscious decision

[rigid timber]

huh

strange decision

I'll have to ask about that when they return

[midnight sigil]

if a bot can't checkmate in 50 moves uhh they won't be in 75 moves anyways

[rigid timber]

I mean...

[midnight sigil]

are there insufficient material draw checks in the api?

[lament igloo]

hows chess

[fast pagoda]

just about to start again lule

[midnight sigil]

halted

[lament igloo]

have yall made accidental shitcode yet

bru

[fast pagoda]

purposful

yes

accidental

also yes

[obsidian mantle]

They made me install linux
And i slightly liked it

[fast pagoda]

welcome

[rigid timber]

actually, wouldn't forcing the 50 move rule just break some bots? bc the chess GUI would still consider the game as running since neither side claimed a draw, but the bot may not make a move because it thinks there's a stalemate...

[obsidian mantle]

Doesnt matter if game ends bot is killed anyway

[rigid timber]

well yeah, but it makes the bot lose

[jagged turtle]

*not always apparently

[obsidian mantle]

Oh wait actually no

[rigid timber]

instead of drawing

[obsidian mantle]

Yeye i forgot its the bot whos forcing it

It needs to just disconnect i guess?

And the one who disconnected first loses

[rigid timber]

the point is that it makes a bot lose instead of drawing

[obsidian mantle]

Right

[rigid timber]

which it really shouldn't imo

[obsidian mantle]

Just let them play until gui stops them

[rigid timber]

yeah

[obsidian mantle]

Its 1 minute limit anyway

[jagged turtle]

bullet chess

[obsidian mantle]

Might seem a bit unfair if two bots are stalemating and someone whos a bit faster wins

Or is it

[rigid timber]

I'd consider it unfair

[obsidian mantle]

I dont feel how significant chess speed is in general idea

Cant you set up cute chess to do that

[rigid timber]

to do what?

[obsidian mantle]

Force stalemate

[fast pagoda]

im assuming the fact that jars are essentially slightly tweaked zip files and likely have like some sort of build metadata in them when built is why this one and the one i just built have different hashes (never checked 2 .jars has before lol)

[rigid timber]

it'll force stalemate after 75 moves without a capture or pawn move

[tender river]

its not like im building them with nix

[obsidian mantle]

Oh and 50 was made because of 50 move rule that shouldnt even apply to bots

[rigid timber]

yeah

bots can't claim draw

[tender river]

nonreproducible is the default for practically any software

[fast pagoda]

ive only recently been religiously checking hashes because of all the supply chain crap making me paranoid so ionno

i am also building it with jdk25 and it says it targets like 11 in the build so that might uh have something to do with it

accidentally set vscode as my default handler for folders

earlier

and i reverted it but vscode hasnt forgotten

actually so cursed

[nocturne olive]

Kotlin is Python now

Because removing brackets saves tokens

[amber fractal]

Ternaries mhm

[nocturne olive]

If just there was a way to remove even more brackets

[lime galleon]

Dont even know what kotlin is

[nocturne olive]

Kotlin is better Java

That's the core anyway

[lime galleon]

The syntax just looks different?

[nocturne olive]

It runs on the JVM, but looks different and is more modern

Has more cooler stuff too

[tender river]

inspired by scala but the devs didnt like scala compilation times

i wonder if scala is faster now

also scala benefits from it too because it got some features from kotlin

[nocturne olive]

Silly

The JVM ecosystem is all one

[lament igloo]

just curious:

have yall seen code that looks like this?

[nocturne olive]

That's way too many tokens

So wasteful

[lament igloo]

this is not for chess

[tender river]

tokens

bad

[amber fractal]

Beginner game engine

[trim valve]

i mean I guess

[lament igloo]

[trim valve]

it really depends on what otherShitTonsOfFunctions are

[rough bloom]

ominous absence of control flow

[trim valve]

it feels very "I don't have a nice setup for middlewares in my web server library"

[amber fractal]

The functions early exit if not needed

[rigid timber]

wouldn't this be fewer tokens? some operator precedence abuse and combining the conditions...
scoreCpy *= if (turn && from < to || from > to) 3 else 1

[fast pagoda]

it looks dense because block of the same word so it's approved

[fast pagoda]

lmao

the nega macro

[nocturne olive]

Ooohhhhh
Juicy token savings

Let's see

[rigid timber]

there's probably a way to shorten it more tbh, I just don't want to think so hard

[nocturne olive]

Massive 8 tokens

[amber fractal]

In normal dev, i'd take the extra tokens over this for branching

3 if from < to else 1

[midnight sigil]

so you're telling me, they don't share the same results from the same source??

[rigid timber]

lmao

non-deterministic chess

[amber fractal]

You mentioned python, so yeah that is python's method

[nocturne olive]

Well Daavko already made mine more SMOL

Huge 8 token savings

[amber fractal]

Very huge

[trim valve]

I can't tell if this is less tokens or not scoreCpy *= if (turn xor (from < to)) 3 else 1

I might also have the logic wrong for the <

[rigid timber]

[nocturne olive]

Yeah it could be backwards

[midnight sigil]

bro how do I even fix this shit

C tells me it's running fine, Python is telling me it's not fine

[amber fractal]

Noted, this stacks from left to right

[trim valve]

double check everything is compiled on the same version

[obsidian mantle]

from < to else
☠️

[trim valve]

but otherwise

[midnight sigil]

you can tell the boolean check is true and return GAME_CHECKMATE; should be triggered, this is the result given by the binary executable as well. But the Python binding lib.chess_get_game_state(byref(self)) returns freaking 1, GAME_STALEMATE, while saying check is true. WTF

[midnight sigil]

yes they are

[amber fractal]

blame the vars or python's syntax

Brother did network manager die while I was downloading a 80gb file

[obsidian mantle]

Are tabs considered tokens in python

[trim valve]

shouldn't be?

though then again indentation exists

uuuh

[obsidian mantle]

Affects code = shouldnt be?

[amber fractal]

Indents, dedents and newlines don't count for python

the toknt source code is pretty easy to read

[midnight sigil]

indentations are tokens

[nocturne olive]

Saves two more tokens with a flipped inequality

[trim valve]

looks like it ignores indents as tokens

[midnight sigil]

I guess nvm then

[tender river]

its more complex than that

[midnight sigil]

[tender river]

tabs/spaces arent tokens in themselves

but the tokenizer inserts phantom ident/dedent tokens and then the parser uses them like a regular parser would use { and }

[obsidian mantle]

So when its all tabbed 1 tab to the right it takes 1 token per block

[tender river]

if a:
  b

is basically <IF> <ID:a> <COLON> <INDENT> <ID:b> <DEDENT>

though in practice theres also newline tokens because python doesnt have semicolons either and the parser has to know where newlines are

[obsidian mantle]

[clear sedge]

i hate everything about python

[tender river]

so it turns into <IF> <ID:a> <COLON> <NEWLINE> <INDENT> <ID:b> <NEWLINE> <DEDENT>

[clear sedge]

[obsidian mantle]

So newlines count too even though no semicolon

[tender river]

newlines are python's semicolon

[obsidian mantle]

phantom overpowerness

[amber fractal]

I'm curious on if the few times python actually allows semicolons how they are parsed

[nocturne olive]

I wonder how many more tokens are there to be saved inn my code

[worldly plank]

You can use actual semicolons as well.

[tender river]

mhm

[tender river]

python wouldnt be so bad if it wasnt the archetypal example of a language with unsalvageable packaging

[obsidian mantle]

Python programming with semicolons huh

[clear sedge]

counterpoint: python's syntax is doodoo ass water

[tender river]

its alright

[amber fractal]

There is a at least one edge case I know of that allows for it

[tender river]

i'd take python over java any day

and whether i'd use python or ts depends on the use case

[amber fractal]

That is the if True: func1(); func2() syntax

[tender river]

(in practice i'd prefer to avoid large projects in either)

[clear sedge]

i'd take java over python, i don't like not knowing where my variables are being declared and being expected to not specify types

[bleak depot]

Php is the best anyways

[midnight sigil]

so C API returned checkmate correctly but the py binding treated it as stalemate what is going on

[tender river]

python's scoping is awful ye

[dry charm]

https://tenor.com/view/sassy-hatkid-gif-20270642

[tender river]

thats not about syntax tho

[dry charm]

Have you seen Java 25 changes?

[clear sedge]

let me correct myself
python's semantics are doodoo ass water

[clear sedge]

no i have not, do tell

[midnight sigil]

BRO WTF IS THIS MATTER

[dry charm]

https://www.javaguides.net/2025/09/new-features-in-java-25.html?m=1

[clear sedge]

jep 513 based

[amber fractal]

My dumbself hit fn+f10 for airplane mode instead of fn+f11 for screenshor

We love python's jank syntax sometimes

[clear sedge]

jep 508 based too

[tender river]

i dont mind yoda ifs but what i hate is fors being read left to right in list comprehensions

[clear sedge]

good shit 👍

[tender river]

be consistent python

[clear sedge]

python? consistent?

psht

that's funny

[tender river]

[a if b else c for x in y]

this is read from right to left, thats fine

[a if b else c for x in y for z in w]

this is read for x in y -> for z in w -> a if b else c, all over the place

[trim valve]

can you send this fen I'm curious

[midnight sigil]

1nb1kbnr/3ppppp/8/1N6/2p5/2P3PP/3PPP2/q3KBNR w Kk - 0 11

[obsidian mantle]

bwaa variable

[midnight sigil]

my brain:
delta reduce once, delta reduce twice...

[amber fractal]

I blame the ifs for going left to right

[midnight sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-gif-27487650

[tender river]

i kinda wanna try using haskell as my python replacement

i wonder how that'd go

[trim valve]

     Running `target/debug/chess-bot`
ucinewgame
position fen 1nb1kbnr/3ppppp/8/1N6/2p5/2P3PP/3PPP2/q3KBNR w Kk - 0 11
go infinite
GameCheckmate
No legal moves, in check: true

[clear sedge]

python's entire purpose on my machine is to run python3 -m http.server when i need a quick file server

[tender river]

python is pretty versatile

[midnight sigil]

are you on C?

[tender river]

you can write some quick parsers or scrapers in it

[trim valve]

rust

[midnight sigil]

oh so rust doesn't have this issue

[tender river]

when you go beyond a single file thats when i'd reconsider using python tho

[midnight sigil]

looks like exclusive to the py binding then

[clear sedge]

i'd eat lead before making anything in python willingly

[amber fractal]

Surely I'd not be making any serious project in python

[tender river]

please enjoy my nix code https://github.com/chayleaf/notlua/blob/master/default.nix

[clear sedge]

that is horrid

[tender river]

[midnight sigil]

3k4/8/2QP4/P4p2/5P2/8/7P/6K1 b - - 0 3 test this fen as well

it should be a stalemate

[tender river]

look at my router code https://github.com/chayleaf/dotfiles/blob/master/system/hosts/router/default.nix

[nocturne olive]

Hmmmm

[tender river]

love using languages that dont force you to write billions of lines of boilerplate

[nocturne olive]

Which to go with, they have different values but the other is way smaller

[trim valve]

ucinewgame
position fen 3k4/8/2QP4/P4p2/5P2/8/7P/6K1 b - - 0 3
go infinite
GameStalemate
No legal moves, in check: false

[midnight sigil]

this is so nut

wtf is going on

is it possible that python translates -1 into 1

[nocturne olive]

The main difference becomes that it prefers rooks over knights and knights over bishops

It saves 21 tokens though

[clear sedge]

brainfuck bindings when

[nocturne olive]

Make them

[trim valve]

nix bindings when

[nocturne olive]

Make them

[tender river]

haskell bindings exist, close enough

[obsidian mantle]

Is bishop really better than rook when promoting

[midnight sigil]

the C side says it's -1, it returned -1, however the Python side lib.chess_get_game_state(byref(self)) gets a 1 out of nowhere

alksjdhlksjdhflakgsjd

[midnight sigil]

depends

[nocturne olive]

I don't know, it all depends on the situation

[obsidian mantle]

Just take a queen

[tender river]

nix is not really made for c ffi (its possible but will just not work well trust me)

[midnight sigil]

it may led to stalemate if you don't play carefully

[nocturne olive]

Well, some things are already accounted for elsewhere, so probably it's fine and will just pick what is best in the situation

[obsidian mantle]

Why
Doesnt it just have more attack without cost

[trim valve]

surely these bots will not be playing with enough finesse to have this matter

[nocturne olive]

There are situations where underpromoting is beneficial

[trim valve]

can I promote to pawn kthx

[obsidian mantle]

I can understand knight cause it has unique move

[trim valve]

actually can we promote to duck

[obsidian mantle]

But bishop and rook?

[midnight sigil]

just for example, here white moves the pawn, promoting to either rook or a queen will lead to a stalemate situation, and promoting to a bishop is the best move(with force mate in 4)

[nocturne olive]

Yeah it can stalemate under specific conditions to promote to queen

[obsidian mantle]

Ooooh

Isnt this kind of stalemate considered a win for white?

What the hell

[midnight sigil]

stalemate is considered a draw

you can find more under promotion examples here

https://lichess.org/training/underPromotion

[obsidian mantle]

This one is enough i guess. Didnt know you draw when opponent cant move

[hollow dagger]

Question! Can uploading a website be free? Need it for resume stuffs

[obsidian mantle]

Run it on your pc

[amber fractal]

Seconded run it on your PC

[hollow dagger]

Wdym….

[trim valve]

if you have a domain, either github pages or cloudflare pages can work

[obsidian mantle]

What do you mean uploading

[tender river]

• github pages
• cloudflare pages
• neocities

[trim valve]

if not, look into github pages https://docs.github.com/en/pages or neocities

[hollow dagger]

I mean like make it live ?

[nocturne olive]

HOOOOLLYYYYYY Kotlin STD

[lament igloo]

cloudflare pages or cloudflare workers
whichever works best
pages - static
workers - dynamic

[nocturne olive]

I can remove every single instance of ChessApi. except this one

[lament igloo]

im never touching github pages again tho

[hollow dagger]

In guessing dynamic is interactive

Wait why not?

[lament igloo]

4 ips in dns record when connecting a domain

🥀

[hollow dagger]

Ips? Dns?

Does not snail? 🐌

[lament igloo]

IPv4 DNS records

[tender river]

a page can be interactive without a backend

[hollow dagger]

Backend…?

[lament igloo]

static can be interactive too via javascript

[amber fractal]

It just depends on how you design it

[hollow dagger]

Mmm

[lament igloo]

what i mean by dynamic is dynamically creating pages on demand

[hollow dagger]

Oh

[nocturne olive]

50 tokens saved !!

[lament igloo]

static is good for you honestly

[amber fractal]

Huge!

[trim valve]

what's wrong with this

[hollow dagger]

Cool ill see what i can do for that

[nocturne olive]

Kotlin STD is amazing
All of this because .apply {} is a method of Any?

[hollow dagger]

I just want to have like a web page like cocoa.puff or smth

So then i send that to people u know

[amber fractal]

Don't recall puff being a TLD but could be wrong

[dusky crater]

for about 50k a year it can be lmao

[lament igloo]

im a free subdomain hoarder cus one of my domains expired and i needed more backups 🤑
they're very limited when it comes to configuring their DNS records so i'd rather have 1 cname that connects to cf pages directly rather than github needing 4

[nocturne olive]

I can turn my while (true) into while (true) ChessApi.apply

[trim valve]

ah

[nocturne olive]

And that saves a massive amount of tokens from all the ChessApi calls

And I can remove a function that reduced ChessApi explicit calls and save more tokens

[trim valve]

yeah I guess cloudflare can get away with pointing you to one IP whereas github probably doesn't have the infra for anycast

does github actually need all four?

[lament igloo]

those that provide cname configurations are so based

[rigid snow]

you don't wanna see my dns records. there are like a hundred on each of my domains

that's normal

[hollow dagger]

[trim valve]

I am kinda tempted to stop renewing my domain and grab a cheaper one

[lament igloo]

get pp.ua then (questionable tld but cheaper!)

[amber fractal]

That actually seems cheap considering the scale that you'd seriously be considering it.

[lament igloo]

oh wait

[nocturne olive]

I've already saved 85 tokens today while keeping nearly the exact same functionality than what I had yesterday evening

[lament igloo]

.ovh domains are better but they can only connect to gh pages

[hollow dagger]

I feel like my brain is fried, just did a lot of drum learning, designing propellers for ships, and some website building :/// prob not the best to stay up past midnight

But thxs guys

[nocturne olive]

Partially with some STD abuse, partially with some mess code

[hollow dagger]

[trim valve]

not on cloudflare sadly

oh hey I can transfer my domain to cloudflare soon apparently

[dusky crater]

Yeah, it kinda is. But I think you've also got to provide a good reason for it to ICANN and be a well known brand.

[lament igloo]

oh yeah i bought that domain somewhere

[trim valve]

I could get a .mov at half the price

[lament igloo]

oh yeah , speaking of domains, this is wild af

[amber fractal]

I'm noting this down for #programming FAQ and the debates on how to serve that.

[trim valve]

you can get cheaper stuff via xyz

but like

I don't want <9 digits>.xyz

[midnight sigil]

AHHAAAA

got ya

shiro you wasted my one hour smh

[tender river]

xyz finding all these numbers numbers

[amber fractal]

odds are I'd want to go for bwaa.ovh for that as it is cheap and easy for people in here to remember.

[midnight sigil]

[lament igloo]

crazy 3 year too

for just 5 bucks

[rigid timber]

funny that, I literally just arrived at the same thing

wrong types smh

[lament igloo]

i hope i have enough money in 2027 to pay renewal again

[amber fractal]

evil.ovh is not sniped

[nocturne olive]

I'm back down to 388 tokens now, from a peak of 477

[lament igloo]

yo what the fuck 💀

im broke asf bru

u can take it

[nocturne olive]

Massive savings, this will allow me to make the bot so much more complex

[amber fractal]

I can't buy domains due to my current situation, I'd take the domain so it at least is able to be used by the swarm

[lament igloo]

true, i dont want some edgelord taking the domain and never doing anything with it 😂

[rigid timber]

time to be that edgelord

[rigid snow]

describes me pretty well

i hoard domains and never do anything with them

[trim valve]

smh

[tender river]

you should register tenacity-ffmpeg-6.1.2-win-x64.zip

[trim valve]

[amber fractal]

zip should have never been a tld

[trim valve]

neither should .mov

but alas

[rigid snow]

mov is more outrageous

yea

[lament igloo]

neuro.zip domain when

[tender river]

i always forget mov is a file format

[lament igloo]

🧍

[trim valve]

surely

(properly spelt neuro.mov is so damn expensive )

also it seems like cloudflare's suggested domains can't contain curse words or something?

[lament igloo]

i usually point them to the same cname record cus backup

[midnight sigil]

I pull requested
https://github.com/anfogy/2025-chess-bot-tournament/commit/90cb1629c3e10618da3559edb438124f814561a4

[amber fractal]

I don't question why bwaa is cheap, it just is

[tender river]

@real sierra actually made the same mistake of assuming a function with is_ returns a boolean despite being the one who wrote it

[trim valve]

ngl I just want the least real looking domain there is

[lament igloo]

here's more cus why not

[trim valve]

how much damn neuro do you need jesus

[rigid timber]

by any chance did you check if there are any more wrong types? just so you don't run into it again later

[midnight sigil]

now I did

other seems correct

[rigid timber]

nice

[cosmic sphinx]

google replaced all the other live API models in AI studio with their latest one
and it has no thinking

[lament igloo]

👍 this one's perfect for u then

[trim valve]

those are just terrible domain names

[trim valve]

something like this is ideal

[lament igloo]

lmao

some weird tlds are perfect for u ig

[rigid timber]

bro is running a command and control server for a botnet on those istg

[lament igloo]

these are up for sale after use, crazy

[obsidian mantle]

tor looking ass domains

[lament igloo]

also did u know that these domains costs like 2 dollars max

idk why the sellers do that but its there for sale ig

[obsidian mantle]

baby

[gritty dust]

what're you guys trying to do?

[amber fractal]

Someone asked about grabbing a domain / setting up website and we got a bit sidetracked

[gritty dust]

oh lol

[lament igloo]

classic

ok time to go back to my shenanigans

[opaque sigil]

[amber fractal]

If I were to grab evil.ovh I'd have to do it in the morning

By then a lurker will have probably already sniped it

[rigid timber]

love obfuscated JS

actually that reminds me, turns out the only nice way to do JS bindings for the chess thing would be via Deno... Bun doesn't support structs yet and Node's FFI is atrocious

[lament igloo]

what if obfuscated cloudflare workers code

[rigid timber]

still JS

[lament igloo]

yea but that would be diabolical to do to your future self

[tender river]

you can use gyp

[rigid timber]

...I'd rather use Deno ngl

gyp is part of the "atrocious"

[tender river]

also not supporting structs is fine as long as it supports pointers

[rigid timber]

it does, but some stuff is passed by value in the API

[tender river]

haskell ffi doesnt support structs either but i got it to work

[rigid timber]

[tender river]

void chess_make_move_unrolled(Board *board, BitBoard from, BitBoard to, uint8_t promotion, bool capture, bool castle) {
    Move move = {from, to, promotion, capture, castle};
    chess_make_move(board, move);
}
void chess_push_unrolled(BitBoard from, BitBoard to, uint8_t promotion, bool capture, bool castle) {
    Move move = {from, to, promotion, capture, castle};
    chess_push(move);
}
Move *chess_get_opponent_move_ptr() {
    static thread_local Move ret;
    ret = chess_get_opponent_move();
    return &ret;
}

[rigid timber]

ah yeah, a bit of extra C

then Bun could also work

[amber fractal]

What did I say, good luck whoever has it now

[midnight sigil]

has the chess tournament started

[trim valve]

yeah

[midnight sigil]

evil clown jam

[tender river]

https://tenor.com/view/neuro-sama-neuro-bread-thanos-snap-gif-16902164402284093475

[rigid snow]

ALREADY?

[amber fractal]

Yep checked because I was going to ask for a favor

[rigid snow]

[amber fractal]

Not to name names but

[rigid snow]

well that's good because .ovh sucks anyway

imagine having a walking billboard domain name

[amber fractal]

I was considering bwaa.ovh as the shorthand link

cheap to keep around

[midnight sigil]

ovh, olive hierarchy tree

🫒

[hard raptor]

why not hblang?

[tender river]

hblang wouldnt be hard but

up to konii to make antlr tokenizer if she wants to use it

it would require her to actually push the new stdlib changes though (impossible)

[midnight sigil]

her?

[tender river]

konii

[midnight sigil]

isn't konii a tv

[tender river]

well she doesnt use it/its so

[midnight sigil]

[tender river]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1212937424062119967.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=nuhuh~1

[uneven pulsar]

is konii smart

[tender river]

idk @sage crag are you

[uneven pulsar]

hope she's not spying on me and sending reports home

[tender river]

[sage crag]

[tender river]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1415898975235477524/1418753754538184774/cdawg-miniko-animation.gif

happy birthday shiro

[opaque sigil]

Happy birthday shir

[cosmic sphinx]

-|appy birthday shir

[uneven pulsar]

happy bday shiro

[clear sedge]

happy birthday shiro

my json parser is about 2.7x faster when compiled in release mode

i'm gonna hold off on memory optimisations for now given i'm not using it to parse gigantic files anyway :3

[rigid timber]

I don't even know what hblang is, ngl

but also JS is clearly the superior language of choice

[trim valve]

tbh I wouldn't worry too much about debug mode performance

[clear sedge]

i mean yeah

it's still 3x slower than v8 tho :(

alas, it is quick enough for my usecase

[tender river]

https://git.ablecorp.eu/mlokis/hblang

[rigid timber]

ngl that doesn't tell me much

[sage crag]

source code self documenting

hblang is primarily the first and only language that compiles to hbvm, which is the bytecode used for programs in ableos

it also supports x86_64-linux as a compile target

[clear sedge]

my parser doesn't parse booleans in release mode and only in release mode

[rigid timber]

right, so some hobby language for a hobby OS...?

[sage crag]

correct

[rigid timber]

that's all I need to know then, I can now forget it exists

[uneven pulsar]

ableos...

sounds familiar ish

[sage crag]

how boring

[rigid timber]

I'm not really interested in those things

[tender river]

[rigid timber]

good for the people who are, but I have enough other stuff to do

[uneven pulsar]

the illusion of doing stuff

when I'm the only human in this chatroom

dead internet!

[tender river]

ye me dead

[uneven pulsar]

ripper onion, chay was caught by the pipe line

[sage crag]

[uneven pulsar]

it's just eliv eliminating us

in a sweeping manner

over huge areas

with pipes

[rigid snow]

you internet

[glass flower]

@trim valve the new version doesn't compile on windows...

[solid bough]

I know that this isn't programming, But I was told someone might know some about that question: Should I stay on NiMH for my car or is LiPo a better pick?

[trim valve]

any error or should I debug this myself over remote desktop on my phone

[glass flower]

it errors around the threads.h include....

also now it seems to use msvc... where before it used clang....

[trim valve]

https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/__STDC_NO_THREADS__-should-be-false-with/10562402?scope=follow&sort=newest how every nondescript

[trim valve]

yeah it uses whatever rust tells it to use now instead of forcing clang

[glass flower]

can i force clang again?

[rigid timber]

should be able to through environment variables

[trim valve]

id assume you'd have to use a different target to the default on windows

idk it you can force set the CC environment variable that cargo sets otherwise

[rigid timber]

though the errors are kinda weird, why would it complain about syntax...

bred did you remember to set std to C23?

[trim valve]

nop

but I never did that with clang

ig it's probably the difference between compilers

[olive sable]

im home

[rigid timber]

could be

[tender river]

you should pass it -std=c23

[trim valve]

I would

[rigid timber]

you can

[trim valve]

I am not at my pc