programming

[trim valve]

on one hand I want to read code

on the other hand I am actually dying from a cold

[fast pagoda]

what exactly is goin on over at zig hq, i have never looked further into it other than seeing arguments about whether or not it's faster than rust or not

and it's named after ziggs from league of legends (real)

but never see anyone use it

except for like

[clear sedge]

sigh

[fast pagoda]

really niche things

[clear sedge]

it's the leading zeros

i think

?

???

[opaque sigil]

plenty of people here that arguably know too much about c++ so feel free to just ask

[clear sedge]

putting more question marks there as i'm slowly assessing my situation

[keen hatch]

my model )

[opaque sigil]

it's slightly more sane c

[real sierra]

i try grok

[fast pagoda]

huh

interesting

[clear sedge]

AHAH NOW IT'S 0

[opaque sigil]

it lives in this weird space between c and c++/rust

[fast pagoda]

0 is correct i'd expect

[rigid snow]

i was referring to the chain that BUN embeds since THEY DO
and i looked it up, it's tinycc

[clear sedge]

yis

[opaque sigil]

ah

yeah i don't think tcc does wasm

[clear sedge]

i'm not even gonna explain my dumbassery

it'll just make me look insane

[fast pagoda]

every time there's some blazingly fast language that people have strong opinions about idk why i ask anymore because it's always "we made c/c++ but we totally made it better this time and everyone on earth should switch promise it's wroth guys"

[opaque sigil]

i should dig more into tcc, it's actually really cool since they skip the ast and just emit assembly as it's parsing

[opaque sigil]

yeah it doesn't really matter, you end up in the same hell either way

[obsidian mantle]

How do you even discover all these random languages

[tender river]

zig is just c++ that uses itself instead of templates

[fast pagoda]

they have bullet points like

• SMALL!
• FAST!
• UNLIMITED!
• SAFE!

on their site so im sure it'll be fantastic already

[tender river]

zig is pretty well known

[silent cloak]

zig is closer to c than c++

[real sierra]

"zig is just c++" say no more, never using it

[clear sedge]

c++ isn't that bad come on

[silent cloak]

zig is kind of to c what rust is to c++

though without the borrow checker

[fast pagoda]

yeah i mean i have heard of it just never bothered to actually look into what it's supposed to solve or replace other than knowing it's supposed to be fast

[clear sedge]

the borrow checker can eat my ass

[silent cloak]

then learn zig

[clear sedge]

i will manage my own memory or let the garbageman do his job thank you very much

[rigid snow]

import { cc } from "bun:ffi";
import source from "./hello.c" with { type: "file" };

const {
  symbols: { hello },
} = cc({
  source,
  symbols: {
    hello: {
      args: [],
      returns: "int",
    },
  },
});

console.log(hello())
```lmao

[fast pagoda]

if you write Zig with Zed as your ide do you become cooler

[tender river]

its well known enough for my interviewer to randomly mention it (not in the context of the job)

[silent cloak]

zig doesnt have a dedicated ide yet so i dont think it matters

[sage crag]

completely wrong

[fast pagoda]

but they both are 3 letters starting with Z

so it's like

[clear sedge]

propaganda

[fast pagoda]

almost the same

[clear sedge]

memory safety in c is also manual

[hasty snow]

Writing zig with a rust editor seems very cursed

[tender river]

why do you need an ide

[fast pagoda]

it's the year of the carbon

https://github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang

[tender river]

intellij slave

[fast pagoda]

this time for real guys

[silent cloak]

man i used to use sublime eclipse and vs studio

i fucking hate vscode slop

[clear sedge]

sublime eclipse

[rigid snow]

uses vs

[fast pagoda]

i like vscode :S but only because i have cool themes

[clear sedge]

the lack of a comma there made me imagine an alternate universe for a second

[real sierra]

(Still thinking)

[clear sedge]

also just use vscodium

[sage crag]

its got a different meaning

[hasty snow]

Zig and Odin weren't real cpp replacement, we swear guys

[silent cloak]

that doesnt fix it being dogshit

[sage crag]

No memory safety -> No checks

[silent cloak]

i like having build related shit built in

[sage crag]

Manual memory safety -> Checks are put in place by you (thanks stdlib)

[fast pagoda]

grok code fast has to be the worst programming model i ever bothered to even ask a question

[clear sedge]

that's because you have to do the checks

[silent cloak]

id prefer a specialized tool for a job than an all around one that is best at nothing

[clear sedge]

you have total freedom to not do them or to do them if you wish

[sage crag]

yes, hence C has no memory safety

[rigid snow]

saying vscode is dogshit and using vs instead genuinely baffles me

[sage crag]

[silent cloak]

i dont use vs anymore

[rigid snow]

good for u

[silent cloak]

i just stick with jetbrains shit now because i get them for free

[fast pagoda]

i saw it came out, got stumped on something, said ok let's see what grok code is cooking

it literally couldn't even do a single toolcall

[real sierra]

who needs memory safety just write good code

[fast pagoda]

which is to say

it couldn't respond

because it's stupid

[clear sedge]

unironically just make sure to pass buffers with lengths every time and you're good

[real sierra]

@sage crag grok response

[fast pagoda]

pycharm was a waste of time when i tried it

[sage crag]

it dumb

[tender river]

you heard it first

[fast pagoda]

not for a subscription cost

[real sierra]

[silent cloak]

i hate working with any python tools tbh

[trim valve]

shiro did you fix the perft stuff I mentioned or not

[sage crag]

[clear sedge]

we nestin

[sage crag]

are you sure you know what memory safety means

[fast pagoda]

for python of all things you super don't need an ide anyways

[silent cloak]

i just hate having to manage environments

[fast pagoda]

literally python can be that on its own so whatever

[silent cloak]

and all the bloatware

[real sierra]

no not yet idk how to fix that

[trim valve]

just gotta find the move myself and try and force it to be played to crash the opponent

[rigid snow]

jetbrains ides are bloat

[real sierra]

do i just print all legal moves per depth, sort list and then compare to sorted reference list

that sounds like something i let run overnight

[silent cloak]

not as badly as vscode

[fast pagoda]

yeah it was just very heavy for almost no real benefit over like a base no extensions vscode anyways

[clear sedge]

it means you have to put a seatbelt on your ram stick

duh

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

vscode is wayyy more responsive than intellij editors to me

[rigid snow]

idk what you're writing where that's the case

[real sierra]

keep it pg please

[fast pagoda]

at least if you dont have 0192347810984310923801923809 extensions at once

[silent cloak]

yeah if ur working with 1 or 2 languages

its not like u can sandbox vscode environments

[fast pagoda]

yes

[clear sedge]

ahem

[fast pagoda]

profiles

[clear sedge]

fixed

[fast pagoda]

i mean it's not a full env

[real sierra]

ty

[fast pagoda]

but it wont load your ext and such

which is the main issue with it slowing down at least for me

[silent cloak]

still doesnt sound like it has anything that would make me move

maybe if i need it for some obscure language

or something like zig

[rigid snow]

at least use nvim or something

[silent cloak]

na

[fast pagoda]

dont take it as me trying to convince you i promise lmao im just saying you can separate it out ya know

[sage crag]

vscode itself has this feature, but

nix

[opaque sigil]

most extensions will also not be active unless they're actually used

[silent cloak]

they must of changed alot then

[clear sedge]

what do you MEAN

[silent cloak]

because it was a shit show last i checked

[rigid snow]

you don't understand, le electon bad, chromium is devil

[silent cloak]

i mean those are good reasons too

[clear sedge]

chromium can eat ass

firefox embedded framework when

[silent cloak]

i miss eclipse era ides to a degree

they felt more "solid"

[rigid snow]

that... exists

[sage crag]

this is an infinitely worse idea

by the way

[fast pagoda]

like if i wanted to make a project only for one lang u can just make a profile for that and it's like a fresh install and you pick what you keep and dont

[sage crag]

firefox breaks when you breath on it too hard

[trim valve]

considering it breaks the trend at depth 3

[rigid snow]

and this too

[trim valve]

that's only like 10k moves

[fast pagoda]

firefox runs like total ass recently

it's actually very irritating

[trim valve]

idk just submit them to something that you know validates games properly?

[clear sedge]

i have zero problems on librewolf

[silent cloak]

web apps are a cancer

[clear sedge]

[silent cloak]

i hate them so much

[sage crag]

i use firefox myself, but firefox embedded framework will just be a worse version of chromium embedded framework

lol

[trim valve]

https://python-chess.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ something like this could work ig

[real sierra]

my suspicion is there's something wrong with knight moves

[clear sedge]

what's that one new browser

[fast pagoda]

i do have floorp which works fine-ish but also i think the main reason is that i never use it and dont have hardly and bloat jammed into it

[silent cloak]

ladybird?

[fast pagoda]

zeen

[clear sedge]

they should just make an embedded framework of that

[fast pagoda]

zen

[real sierra]

did i have too many legal moves or too few

[fast pagoda]

idk

[silent cloak]

they just shouldnt use browsers to make desktop apps

easy

[trim valve]

[clear sedge]

that too

[opaque sigil]

ladybird embedded framework

[clear sedge]

but also

[fast pagoda]

all the firefox clones are just firefox in experience except i use them less so i dont have bloat in them

[clear sedge]

if you're gonna do it

[trim valve]

ok well

[clear sedge]

don't use chromium

[silent cloak]

there is a special place in hell for it

[trim valve]

I have even more 🤨 news

[clear sedge]

make your own browser

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

[rigid snow]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA don't even bring it up in this convo

[trim valve]

it may have found a duplicate move returned from get_legal_moves

[sage crag]

you dont have to use webapps

[silent cloak]

[trim valve]

it may just be a skill issue on my part but

[silent cloak]

its everywhere now

[real sierra]

thats not even possible

[trim valve]

that only happened at depth 7

[clear sedge]

discord being built on electron will be its downfall

mark my words

[rigid snow]

[silent cloak]

one of the devs i know there says 99% of the exploits are electron related

[real sierra]

like

[tender river]

[trim valve]

that's a great question shiro

[silent cloak]

because they always have to wait for them to push fixes

[real sierra]

the way that moves are generated

[silent cloak]

and no one on their team can do shit until they do

[fast pagoda]

well yeah i mean it's a browser it's extremely malleable

[trim valve]

like I just shoved this in my perft, nothing too special

[clear sedge]

red line

bad

booooo

booooooo

[trim valve]

thread 'main' (81207) panicked at chess-bot/src/main.rs:39:5:
assertion `left == right` failed
  left: 30
 right: 29
note: run with `RUST_BACKTRACE=1` environment variable to display a backtrace

I removed some debugging traits because I had to patch the library to make some stuff hashable

[fast pagoda]

jarvis, fix that scary red line for me

sure, <overwrites the entire file and still has the error after>

[trim valve]

though tbh I might add those back in a bit

[silent cloak]

jarvis ignore the error and compile anyways

[fast pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/jarvis-erase-gif-1159901542694943356

[silent cloak]

electron devs be like

[clear sedge]

how does one ignore such an error

[fast pagoda]

being based

[clear sedge]

you know what?

fair

[fast pagoda]

simply let it slide right off your smooth brain

[silent cloak]

just yell at the monitor until it goes away

[clear sedge]

hey my brain isn't smooth it has one big wrinkle down the middle

[real sierra]

yeah i feel like the way id do this is

download the lists of correct legal moves for the involved depths

then print the API legal moves to file

[fast pagoda]

damn you got some srurface area going on, i dont have htat at all

[real sierra]

sort both

diff

[trim valve]

fair

[real sierra]

but like

[fast pagoda]

print it out via hp inkjet first

[real sierra]

idk if such lists exist or what format the moves are

[trim valve]

I mean as I said there's a python library

surely that's correct

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

that's what ive been using to get moves while shiro refuses to give me the api

[trim valve]

doesn't seem too hard though

[silent cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/terry-davis-gcc-gnu-compiler-collection-gif-5738351674716595219

[real sierra]

soon

[fast pagoda]

RIP

[silent cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/do-not-run-python-python-computer-python-coding-coding-funny-coding-meme-gif-10365831290651691441

all the best programmers start with Java or something lower first

[fast pagoda]

what i like the most about this is that nobody know what the fuck it is unless they already knew and dont care

[fast pagoda]

i started with python so the answer certainly isn't python

i can confirm

[silent cloak]

i think starting off with python is how people end up as react devs

[fast pagoda]

you know that was the next thing after

[silent cloak]

slippery slope

[fast pagoda]

before i knew it now im writing js backends

it's so over

[silent cloak]

its so overflow

[tender river]

i started with c++, competitive programming and then c++ game modding (first readprocessmemory/writeprocessmemory and exe/so patches then dll injections)

[fast pagoda]

that checks out

[real sierra]

i started with visual basic

[fast pagoda]

wew laddy

[keen hatch]

I like this answer more than the previous one)

[silent cloak]

i used to know VB

but i forgot when i learned C#

it was my first dotnet shit though

[fast pagoda]

honestly sometimes i forget they're different

because dotnet

[silent cloak]

i like C# as a language but i dont like dotnet

not a fan of IL

[sage crag]

wow

how is that possible

C# bad CIL good

[silent cloak]

eat my shit nerd

C# for life

[real sierra]

it all goes back to C

C is the best

accept your fate

[sage crag]

c# least usable language since java

[silent cloak]

until u want a GUI

[sage crag]

[fast pagoda]

i was going to joke about installing dotnet on rn on linux but uh

[silent cloak]

python*

[tender river]

mono

[sage crag]

mono

[silent cloak]

IL2CPP is my best friend with game development

[sage crag]

garbage

[rigid snow]

this person has the most unpopular opinions ever

[silent cloak]

lets me avoid mono

[fast pagoda]

ive never used it intentionally so it must be a dep

wonder what i have that uses .net lmfao

[sage crag]

probably of WINE

[real sierra]

wtf i thought i had that honour

[fast pagoda]

yeah true

[rigid snow]

not anymore

[sage crag]

shiro your opinions are just uninformed

[real sierra]

my throne

[fast pagoda]

i was gonna say it's probably from when i was trying desperately to get wine to run pdn

[sage crag]

[rigid snow]

The Joker Quotes

[silent cloak]

The Joker Quotes

[tender river]

i didnt like f# enough to use other than for c# interop it but i might use scala in some actual projects it seems comfy

[clear sedge]

ah the infamous *** Failure: ... has crashed ***

[opaque sigil]

i need to use scala more

my beloved

[fast pagoda]

he giv up

honestly seeing that tokenizer w/ scala made me go hmmm

seems kewl

[silent cloak]

java dressed in a suit

[fast pagoda]

so what is F# kotlin but for dotnet

[tender river]

f# is scala but for dotnet

[opaque sigil]

scala's worst feature is having to support java/jvm

[fast pagoda]

ah

[silent cloak]

now u get how i feel about C#

[fast pagoda]

neuro is borne of the blood sweat and tears of vedal standing on the shoulders of the titans of industry at microsoft writing his c# for unity

so it really is the wrost thing ever then, damn

[silent cloak]

vedal certainly writes the C# code of all time

[fast pagoda]

surely

very mucho c# in 2025

[tender river]

oh i can write the bindings now

[clear sedge]

i did it

[fast pagoda]

heh heh

[clear sedge]

i made a json parser on the 21st night of september

my life is complete

[fast pagoda]

oh what a night

LATE SEPTEMBER BACK IN 25
WAS A VERY SPECIAL TIME FOR ME
AS I REMEMBER WHAT A NIGHT

idk why i can do nothing but randomly reference things and shitpost

hahahaha

also it made me use typing immediately without running so im pissed

[clear sedge]

mkstring

do you want a mkrib with that

[fast pagoda]

yes if you have one

why did python have to go with '' and "" are interchangeable and make me eternally forget that every time i swap to something that isn't literally just js or python who baby me too much

every single time i have to stare at the linter warning like wat

oh right it's not goddamn python anymore and what you're doing actually isn't a clown fiesta now

makes me feel like a total moron because it's literally a basic primitive and the most simplest of objects and i feel like i forgot how to do anything at that point

rude

[opaque sigil]

default to " and it becomes a non-issue (chars don't exist)

[trim valve]

unironically this was the reason I didn't learn go a couple years ago

[fast pagoda]

what you dont like runes brah

we cast a magic spell for our chars

[trim valve]

iirc when I tried and failed the error was super unhelpful

[fast pagoda]

and why yes sweaty we do have those as int32 for the lulz

thinknig about what happens during compile is a great way for me to feel like a total moron (yes i know c/rust/almost everything except like python has chars as a small int)

[sage crag]

primitive char is usually 8 bits, but there are also things like Utf8CodePoint which

[fast pagoda]

if python can use it's gigabrain at runtime and figure out that "a" is a char and treat it as such and "aa" is not, compiler should be able to as well ><
but the one guy who used the exactly millisecond savings from it somehow to do something will go nuts so nope compilers say UHH IT BROKE

[sage crag]

[fast pagoda]

we out here throwing len=1 strings on the heap and then wondering why everything is slow as fuck

[sage crag]

compilers already do this

[fast pagoda]

not the scala one i was just asking to

[sage crag]

const folding and inlining

competent compiler can do it

[fast pagoda]

kek

[opaque sigil]

you can thank java

[fast pagoda]

yeah i mean it should be trivial i always assumed it was another thing about having the full control over the heap and your memory gc w/e so they just enforce that you should be doing that by preventing it at compile

i dont remember the last time i actually tried to compile something with this error in it because i dont compile things with giant linter errors usually unless i'm feeling frisky

[opaque sigil]

(idk if they're to blame but i like blaming them for scala problems)

[fast pagoda]

it's definitely a java inheritance
they yoinked def main so it looks ooh shiny modenrn not an int or a public void or anything like that yay

but then i gotta explicitely type it as a : Unit = { before proceeding so what was the point of going to the simpler keyword syntax if ur just gonna move it somewhere else

[silent cloak]

java being java

[sage crag]

nyan

[tender river]

the point is having the return type at the end

same as rust

[fast pagoda]

well yea but that's what java's public void is for except it's just defining somethin with no return like that

if it's already java based that's more of what i was confused on

but i mean it's just syntax im not really complaining about anything it just threw me off

especially since i was messing with it and the tutorial i pulled up didn't use the typing at all and didnt mention it lmfao

so i had to figure out why it was mad and then go look up the syntax for it

[tender river]

think of unit as a 0-ary tuple

or just in general as a type with only a single possible inhabitant

i.e. a type whose values encode no data

[fast pagoda]

right, it's just () right

[real sierra]

like None from py?

[tender river]

mhm

[fast pagoda]

that's what i assumed

[tender river]

though python's types are best not compared to

[fast pagoda]

python types my beloved

use em

dont

ehhh

turn on the type checker you got 10000 scary messages

that's spooky

[real sierra]

i dont mind python types

[fast pagoda]

turn it off baby

[real sierra]

they do what i need them to

[sage crag]

None type (is actually class)

[sage crag]

fun fact

[real sierra]

any other arguments are not relevant to my use cases

[sage crag]

type is also a python class

[real sierra]

blissful ignorance

[fast pagoda]

i thoguht none is an object

and the class is NoneType

[tender river]

ye None is an object but type(None) is a class

[sage crag]

correct ye

[real sierra]

makes sense

[fast pagoda]

the only object belonging to that class

[sage crag]

surely

[fast pagoda]

types are objects and objects are types weee

who knows

python runtime will try to run it

badly

[sage crag]

types are objects, objects have associated types

[tender river]

[sage crag]

have you tried building a NoneType class object from scratch

since python classes are also objects

[real sierra]

python has abstract classes doesnt it

[fast pagoda]

the word type looks incorrect to me now

[real sierra]

id think none class is abstract

[opaque sigil]

abc

[tender river]

wdym

i can do this at least

[fast pagoda]

[tender river]

ye not in builtins

use type(None)

[real sierra]

does it equal None

[sage crag]

so i did some preliminary testing and it appears that huffman would reduce the bytecode size by about 50%

[fast pagoda]

that was right above yeah

was kinda just runnin stuff

[real sierra]

what about is

[fast pagoda]

but yeah it's weird what gets abstracted away and also how that affects how you think about other languages

[real sierra]

cursed

[fast pagoda]

yeah that's why you gotta do C only

[tender river]

not really the metaclass overrides __new__ to intern the return value basic stuff

enum also does that

[fast pagoda]

that string replacement i had in scala required 3 includes in C lule

[real sierra]

enone

[fast pagoda]

because of course it did

funny stuff though

[sage crag]

class Erms:
  def init(self, x):
    self.x = x ** 2

def better_init(slf, x):
  slf.x = (x ** 2) ** 2
  print(slf.x)

Erms.__init__ = better_init

ermie = Erms(2)

run this

[real sierra]

chills

[tender river]

dont want to

[fast pagoda]

i dont know what i gained from that other than that's definitely one way to print 16

[tender river]

[fast pagoda]

real

[tender river]

it is real

[fast pagoda]

[real sierra]

exciting things happening here

the math community will be delighted

[sage crag]

@stiff mica

9 + 10 = 21

[stiff mica]

🍪 Om nom nom
You've given me 7 cookies! | I've received 246046 cookies total!

[fast pagoda]

python is so readable and natural :^)

[stiff mica]

aww, thank you~ ( ◡‿◡ *)

[fast pagoda]

shiro that was not mathematically exciting

[olive sable]

nah impretty sure it was

[fast pagoda]

Hello my dearest Shiro,
I trust this correspondence finds you well. I, along with my esteemed fellow members of this most productive of chatrooms, are writing to you today with a collective sense of great anticipation for the chess API. Its absence is now most keenly felt throughout the community, as many of our own endeavors are poised to flourish upon its arrival. We would be immeasurably grateful if you would consider releasing it to us at your earliest possible convenience.

Well and truly yours,
Chayleaf

[tender river]

[rare bramble]

I mean mathematicians are always seeking to learn new things about math with cool proofs and things, I think they would be excited to learn that 9 + 10 = 21

[real sierra]

Hi
It'll be released soon
Thanks, Shiro

Sent from my iPhone

[fast pagoda]

lmfao

signed linus torvalds

[tender river]

i'd write the haskell bindings but can't you see i'm gaming right now

(actually working on it rn though so just wait )

[real sierra]

🌹 🌷

[fast pagoda]

lmfao that reminds me

that chess game that the llm tried to make yesterday i like to waste time so i "improved it" in their vision

looked like that kinda

oh yeah

( the pieces can go literally anywhere on the board)

[real sierra]

WTF

MUSH TO G5

[fast pagoda]

well mush is black so i had to move 🌱 ya know

rendered PERFECTLY

[real sierra]

pieces moving anywhere is so cursed

i take your star with my star

[tender river]

anywhere or like grid aligned

[fast pagoda]

it's a grid

this btw was the llm's doing

all i really did was add black

and then add the graphics

since it didnt have the pretty colours it said it did in the comments

[olive sable]

i dont know what exactly made my code error, but i found a fix

[fast pagoda]

the bottom star went ahead and 360 noscoped the other one

[olive sable]

today im happy to introduce fix.cpp

[fast pagoda]

@real sierra

look at that beautifully rendered checkerboard

[real sierra]

how does that even work

[fast pagoda]

well

the design is very human

[real sierra]

the flowers at the top

[olive sable]

[fast pagoda]

yeah they're fucking JAMMING at all times

brb taking a shower (i have to since i just ran this masterpiece, i'm sweating and overwhelmed with what i just saw)

i want to use this client to visualize my games

i think i will fix it up to actually be visible but still fuckin stupid and that'll be that once i wire the chess bots to it

[real sierra]

the chess bots communicate with the chess hosts using UCI

you can implement the gui-side of the spec now if you want

[sage crag]

ahh

i made an oopsie

huffman decoding: bytecode 26 bytes -> 11 bytes

problem

byte not translate directly to token count

[real sierra]

y

[sage crag]

have to make huffman table

uint8_t *hdata = (uint64_t[]){
    0x287746A997DD9DAF, 0x00000000FF802E83
};

ye ye data smaller

uint16_t *htree = (uint64_t[]){
    0x0405FF0302030106, 0x080B070CFF02FF04,
    0xFF00FF08FF0E090A, 0x1011FF090E0F0D12,
    0x0000FF01FF0AFFFF
};

tree

[opaque sigil]

use libzstd

(ignore that the boilerplate will use more tokens than the huffman tree)

[olive sable]

both vulkan and opengl back-ends work now

mostly

[real sierra]

[olive sable]

the opengl uses an old shader with extra lighting inputs im not using rn, hence why the right one looks worse

[real sierra]

crazy thunder rn

shaking the entire house

sounds like artillery

[olive sable]

aight imma go to bed now

its almost 2am and i have class at 10.45

[real sierra]

good night sam

[olive sable]

thanks shiro

you too

[sage crag]

nrm

[real sierra]

npm

[sage crag]

no

shiro ban

!ban shiro

[real sierra]

i ban

[stray dragon]

bye shiro

maybe next time you'll release the api before you get banned

smh

[real sierra]

out soon

only waiting on haskell bindings

[stray dragon]

soon™

[keen hatch]

[tender river]

2 functions done N more to go

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1067638175478071307/1406337271241904158/ezgif-3f552200e37817.avif

has kill

[real sierra]

getLegalMoves and getBoard are the hardest ones i think, many of the rest are relatively copy-paste

maybe some difficulty finding your language's equivalent for C enums

[tender river]

ye so hard

[real sierra]

Maybe Piece

[stray dragon]

wait chess api almost done?

holy shit i gotta wake up properly

[tender river]

go back to sleep

[stray dragon]

oh..................

[fast pagoda]

@real sierra are u using gnu23 standard just confirming

for c

dunno if it'll matter but im setting some shit up because i have to nap or i'll die

[real sierra]

C submissions will be compiled using gcc -std=c23 -O3 -o bot_exec bot_source.c -L. -lchess -lm

[opaque sigil]

no gnu extensions for you

[fast pagoda]

c23 it is

[keen hatch]

looking at the Gentoo handbook

[fast pagoda]

Alright, here's a take on that.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as C, is in fact, GNU/C, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus C. C is not a programming language unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU toolchain made useful by the GNU Compiler Collection, linker, and vital system libraries comprising a full development environment as defined by the ISO standard.

Many programmers compile a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called C, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a C, and these people are writing it, but it is just a part of the system they use. C is the specification: the document that allocates semantics to the keywords that you type. The spec is an essential part of a programming language, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete compiler and toolchain. C is normally used in combination with the GNU Compiler Collection: the whole system is basically GNU with the C specification added, or GNU/C. All the so-called C compilers are really distributions of GNU/C.

im going to bed

[real sierra]

classic copypasta

[fast pagoda]

Courtesy of Gemma 4b because I'm deadge bedge

I had fucking ants coming in to my entire house

[real sierra]

oh hell nah

ants and flying things with stingers are the two types of bugs i cant stand

[fast pagoda]

I just don't like getting bit on my toe

Well

Idk pincer attacked

I put weather stripping on the doors and they literally ate through the moulding

So I just gassed all the doors and shut and now my cats are trapped in the office with me and will be eating all my cables so maybe when I wake up I'll be able to get started or I won't have a functioning computer cuz they're mad lol

[keen hatch]

i need more vram

[stray dragon]

holy

want.

[keen hatch]

Power consumption

[stray dragon]

glorious monolith

[keen hatch]

cpu threadripper pro 5955wx

[stray dragon]

all that and my cpu is still better lmao

9900x my beloved

don't blame you though, threadrippers are expensive

[keen hatch]

The main feature is PCIe lines.

[stray dragon]

7 of them, damn

[keen hatch]

128pcie lines

[keen hatch]

If it weren't a workstation, I'd rather use Epic... )

[real sierra]

i wish i had that kind of spending money

[tender river]

i wish i had spending money

[keen hatch]

this config is super overkill for most people. the money can be put to much better use than in hardware that will become obsolete in a few years... but I'm really into local ai

[stray dragon]

512gb of ram is funny, i approve

[keen hatch]

I can open as many tabs in Chrome as I want

[stray dragon]

i have 192gb

and a few tabs.

[tender river]

getting there

will also have to reimplement bitboard functions

[stray dragon]

honestly rather glad i got 192gb instead of something like 128gb, having dedicated VMs for memory-hungry applications (minecraft servers) makes the number left for the desktop VM shrink and shrink

[real sierra]

everyone in this channel makes me feel poor

[stray dragon]

it was only $333 for 192gb of ram

and like $670 for the rest of the upgrade but we don't speak of that :)

but hey, it runs minecraft

[real sierra]

$333 is a lot

[stray dragon]

for ddr5? that's cheap

[real sierra]

for anything

its out of my budget period

[stray dragon]

i see

[keen hatch]

You can never have too much memory. I have another threadripper (2950x) and 128GB of RAM, but I haven't gotten around to building this system yet. I think I'll use it only for VMs.

[stray dragon]

big number = big happy

spare threadripper is funny too

[tender river]

@real sierra i assume chess_get_index_from_bitboard is undefined for empty bitboard?

[real sierra]

you should consider it undefined, yes

[tender river]

okay its done in theory but i also need to reimplement bitboard functions

[real sierra]

as the function header says:

//! Returns a square index equivalent to the square indicated by the given bitboard.
/*!
This function expects a bitboard with a single bit set, such as the kind you would get from a Move struct.
\sa get_bitboard_from_index()
\param bitboard The bitboard to get the square index of.
\return An index from 0-63 indicating the set square.
*/

[keen hatch]

it slow but usable https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/11977438?baseline=11813810

[real sierra]

threadripper slow

[stray dragon]

not like most VMs need that much cpu speed

[real sierra]

why do i even try dude im just gapped in this channel

my rich elo is too low for this lobby

matchmaking broke

[stray dragon]

that's how i feel when it comes to programming experience and knowledge

i only dare to talk here when i feel i'm beyond the peak of the dunning-kruger effect on something

[tender river]

it pains me to just throw all the functions in a single module but theres no point in separating them since they're gonna be used in a single file

[real sierra]

justified sacrifice

[hollow spruce]

Bro heat wave waring again

[real sierra]

[keen hatch]

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking of using it for something like that... I have quite a lot of stuff that could be virtualized... Another option is to build a NAS based on this system... but after using 2nd generation threadrippers for a long time, they're not very stable.

[hollow spruce]

Vcpu hmmm
I won't rent

[stray dragon]

currently a bit iffy about moving stuff to VMs outside the main desktop VM because for some reason my system keeps freezing the linux VM i have

i could move over my minecraft servers to their own VMs, but if they're going to freeze every 1-3 days and require me to manually restart them, what's the point

at least the windows vm seems to be stable, and proxmox has stopped crashing randomly

[opaque sigil]

https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/developers-can-now-get-cuda-directly-from-their-favorite-third-party-platforms/

[stray dragon]

holy shit no more dealing with "version mismatch" for hours???

massive

[real sierra]

is that fucking gitcraft

[opaque sigil]

for nix specifically the community cache already served some of the cuda packages but this being an official thing in collaboration with nvidia is nice

[tender river]

btw @real sierra it says here that you're allowed to ping programmer role for events #mod-announcements message

[real sierra]

already planned to do that, im just waiting for the haskell bindings to be done and then the ping is going out

will ping events role too

[stray dragon]

pinging events role may bring in like 1 extra guy

[real sierra]

sure but why not

events role havers when pinged for event:

[stray dragon]

lol

anyways back to thinking about how i'm going to redo the search algorithm

since it seems like the area i can improve the most

[keen hatch]

It's quite strange that VMs freeze. Is there anything useful in the logs?

[real sierra]

i have a method to suggest against

[tender river]

just gotta add bitboard flood and blocker functions and then i'll implement a test bot and add docs and it's ready

surely

[stray dragon]

nothing that indicates anything happened

[real sierra]

you know what

[stray dragon]

except the logs stopping after a point, of course

[real sierra]

theres a place in my code where im doing a malloc

but surely i can just upper bound that and use a fixed size array

[stray dragon]

the last log entry is usually more than a minute before the freeze would have happened, and is more of a heartbeat thing than an error or warning or anything of the sort

no visible or audible correlation with high CPU usage, enough RAM to not have any issues there, no hardware overclocked in any way

[keen hatch]

and there is nothing in the hypervisor log either?

[stray dragon]

pretty sure i've checked that at some point, and i don't remember seeing anything of value in any logs

[real sierra]

blocking i/o?

is your virtual disk full or something?

[stray dragon]

nope

not even close

[real sierra]

yea idk

[stray dragon]

it's currently frozen right now so i can show you usage stuff

[real sierra]

the only time my vm froze was when i used all my ram

[stray dragon]

wait.

5.00% of 20 cpus

there's no way right

[real sierra]

that would be

100% of 1 of those 20 cpus

single threaded

[stray dragon]

yeah that's what i'm thinking too

[real sierra]

i opened the emote menu just now and crashed discord

[stray dragon]

at least i now have a lead

lol

not fixing it now though

[real sierra]

how come

[stray dragon]

don't wanna deal with that bs right now

[real sierra]

nice

[stray dragon]

i'm gonna procrastinate it

[real sierra]

i dont suppose you could make a markdown version of the docs as well in similar format to the other docs

[stray dragon]

(also restarting for this stuff means i have to take down the minecraft servers so i'd like to at least announce that i'm planning to do it beforehand)

[real sierra]

i know markdown isnt the nicest but its easy to write for all languages

and lets me keep all the docs versions in one place

[real sierra]

haskell syntax looks really nice actually

[tender river]

forgot an $ how did that typecheck

[real sierra]

absent of unnecessary symbols

[stray dragon]

hehe

[real sierra]

[stray dragon]

also what's this

[real sierra]

a sequence of consumed items i think

and then what it produces

[stray dragon]

ah

[tender river]

[real sierra]

thats my guess at least

i dont know anything about haskell dont get me wrong

[stray dragon]

at least you guessed correctly

[real sierra]

my functional programming experience was racket

wasnt bad honestly until we had to do machine learning

then i didnt like it anymore

[tender river]

machine learning in racket wtf

[real sierra]

evil course

evil evil course

i think its up there with the most evil assignments we ever had

second most evil was an assignment where you were given an existing C program with hard-to-find bugs carefully inserted into it

and had to fix and return

had every kind of memory issue

[tender river]

racket is best for dsl development imo, literally nobody uses it for ml

[stray dragon]

oh god

[real sierra]

use-after-free, double-free, etc etc

off by one on a loop

checked all the boxes

[stray dragon]

yeah C has been really fun to work with so far but i can tell that doing any debugging for memory-related issues will be an awful experience

[real sierra]

honestly not that bad with gdb

i didnt have much experience with gdb until this project but like

if you compile from the sources, with -ggdb3 flag

and then run gdb

you'll get an exact stack trace to the segfault

to the line itself

[stray dragon]

damn thank you for this

[real sierra]

valgrind is also a godly tool, just run your program with it and leak-check=yes and it'll point out every allocation that never got freed

u can google simple tutorials on that

[stray dragon]

will probably be adding C to my list of "go-to scripting languages" after this chess competition, it's been easy to work with (especially the simple syntax) and the speed is nice too

doesn't make me question my every decision like working with C# does

[real sierra]

ikr

C 🐐

its so straightforward

[stray dragon]

also hear it integrates easily with python so that's nice

[real sierra]

no arguing with the language about what i want to do

[real sierra]

not surprising

i think the most used python backend is CPython

[stray dragon]

yeah considering most python imports are just C

💕❤️💕 numpy 💕❤️💕

[real sierra]

i should probably really test the python bindings more

they were acting a little suspicious

[stray dragon]

i heard "low-level language" and "easy to shoot yourself in the leg while using it" and "memory leaks" and "segfault" and was scared of it before this lol

[real sierra]

thats... an interesting move..?

[opaque sigil]

that's half the fun though, keeps it spicy

[stray dragon]

lol

[real sierra]

turbo knight

i dont even really know hwo this is happening

[stray dragon]

i probably won't run into the spicy issues unless i try to take it beyond the level of simple scripts and that's good enough for me

[opaque sigil]

if you want a dead simple and efficient way to manage memory you might want to look into arena allocators btw, they're really nice

[sage crag]

while(*s != 255) *s & 0x80 ? ({ uint8_t l = (*s++ & 0x7F) + 1, d = *s++; while(l--) *o++ = o[-d]; }) : (*o++ = *s++);

:mhm:

decompression

i hate it

it works somewhat

unless a 255 appears in the bytecode somewhere

surely that will never happen

anyway i tested this and worst case it appears to be the same as uncompressed

[opaque sigil]

i'm not even going to try and decipher that

[sage crag]

and best case is

lz77-like

[hollow spruce]

While Decompile my pc cry too much

[real sierra]

quickly patching 900 holes in the python api

[sage crag]

it can do stuff liek th

ye if the bytecode contain duplicate

[tender river]

do i include all packages included with the compiler or only the base library?

for example, rng is a separate package but its shipped with the compiler

[real sierra]

i would only include the parts you wrote, as long as there's instructions such that someone can reasonably build, compile and use it on their own

[tender river]

my point is, does that count as standard library for purposes of the challenge?

[real sierra]

ah

[sage crag]

in like a best case where its just 1 instruction duplicated over and over

[real sierra]

external libs required for the bindings are fine

i wont count those as long as they aren't directly invoked from the bot code

[tender river]

its not external

its shipped with the compiler

[sage crag]

50 LDR instruction

[real sierra]

then doubly so, its fine

[sage crag]

9 byte

compression

just not write 255 anywhere

[real sierra]

the stdlib restriction is just on the 1024-token code written for the contest does not apply to bindings

[real sierra]

255

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1212937424062119967.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=nuhuh~1

[tender river]

yeah but im writing a scaffold bot project that people can clone

and the question is whether the vendored libraries that arent base should be included

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

so your question is if things outside of base that come with the compiler are "stdlib"

[tender river]

yep

[real sierra]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

are the things outside of base compiler-specific

[sage crag]

ok i have determined that

[real sierra]

because i imagine the things in base are generally defined by a spec

[sage crag]

the compressor dislikes some numbers

[real sierra]

and not implementation-dependent

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

most sources im reading agree that base and Prelude are the de facto stdlib for haskell

so im gonna go with that

i will clarify this on the github haskell readme

[fast pagoda]

oh my fking god this works i just tried on a whim

ive been bullshitting how i add requirements.txt to a uv env for so long

woke up in a cold sweat

ready 4 chess

[tender river]

i'll include containers for hashmap and array since its in the language standard, thats it

[real sierra]

if you could put these in terms a haskell user would understand neatly

so i can put that info on the haskell readme

that'd be great

trying to have language-specific gotchas like this documented

[hollow spruce]

Pip install -r n.txt

pip list > n.txt

[tender river]

i will provide a project and you could just say that only Main.hs can be modified

[fast pagoda]

yeah i mean i know how to get a list of the reqs just for some reason i had it in my head that i had to add them in this stupidly convoluted way, never bothered just doing uv add -r <list of reqs> i think i basically hoped uv sync worked or that was that lmao

[real sierra]

did you write an example bot by chance?

[tender river]

almost done just cleaning up some stuff in the project files

[real sierra]

[tender river]

also it will reference a library from git probably, do you want to host it in your repo or do you want me to host it?

either is fine with me

[real sierra]

id prefer you're hosting it

[fast pagoda]

host it at a url that looks megasus

[real sierra]

i can't very well maintain it given i dont know how any of it works

and i trust you enough so

bred is just hosting the rust api on a github page and i have a link to it from the contest github page which works fine

[fast pagoda]

have i ever mentioned i hate github pages (i have)

[real sierra]

how come...

[fast pagoda]

i dont mind when someone else is managing them

[real sierra]

ah

i dont actually mind it, im having quite a lot of fun with this

ive arranged everything in a super obvious way

it goes like, 2 folders deep max

so u cant get lost

[fast pagoda]

i just dont envy being the one that has to because i truly hate how they handle stuff like directories

if your gh.io url isn't gh.io/pagesite.html and then nav from there, but instead it's gh.io/foorepo/pagesite.html- getting the correct url using something like .. to go up a folder does not work because it will go to gh.io/pagesite.html which won't exist at least as the page you're looking for

[real sierra]

sorry i probably should have clarified

i meant github repo not github page

[fast pagoda]

oh

lol

well then nevermind

sounds great

[real sierra]

im surprised i havent been physically harmed over the docs yet

i thought doing docs this way was a criminal offense

but people are suspiciously quiet

i suspect most have just not seen them yet

[fast pagoda]

i didnt know the repo was available lule

the 2 seconds i was sleeping i missed it

[real sierra]

no its not available

but im still surprised people havent complained even if nobody has access

i feel like people would just feel that it's incorrect ethereally

[keen hatch]

[fast pagoda]

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

2% in is extra classic

at least it failed immediately

the ones that pissed me off were when like 80% of the run was done

oops oom

although checkpointing usually meant it wasnt a total loss but still

[real sierra]

cuda hard mode

no checkpoints

shared memory only, no on board ram

[fast pagoda]

how do u use shared memory only but no ram

oh

im stupid

that's the on chip

idk why i was thinking that's the overflow to ram

https://tenor.com/view/vince-mc-mahon-durag-mr-mc-mahon-entrance-walk-gif-22278131

i oomed so many h100s walking up like this

thinkin i had so much spare

nope

i got an ad for one of these earlier

768gb of ram lule, still ddr5 not vram but

[tender river]

2 problems in one

i think i'm just gonna do static linking to avoid the former issue, and for the latter uuh i'll debug it

[real sierra]

it happens

[tender river]

not today though

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

SIGSADGEV

that's one hell of a path

[real sierra]

ty for working over the weekend

[tender river]

what's a weekend

[fast pagoda]

is that related to nixos's immutability

[tender river]

no

[fast pagoda]

oh

i was like damn if every path is like that it looked like a commit hash or something

[real sierra]

more debugging to go on the python api anyway

unsure how it thinks g6g6 is a legal move

[fast pagoda]

it probably doesnt understand the meaning of the word illegal cuz it's got type checker off

man as much as i refuse to buy apple products the m4 is bonkers and im glad they're probably scaring the shit out of both amd and intel (if intel notices as they explode)

[keen hatch]

The best macs are the Air and Mini... the rest are overpriced.

I did this, bought air and use vscode remote..

[fast pagoda]

yeah.... i would seriously be having a hard time not getting a mac studio if i could grab an m4 max 16 core w/ 128gb for less than $3500

would probably just slap linux on it and have a grand old time depending on how the support is

but not for that much

mini on the otherhand i think is competitively priced if not cheaper than i expected especially when this current one released

you can really crank up the price though

that's the thing w/ apple

and i get that having more unified memory is not as simple as slapping more ddr5 in like some systems can

[keen hatch]

the mini and air are actually the best things you can buy on the market right now... for the price they ask

[fast pagoda]

but why is 24gb -> 64gb a 600 dollar increase

[opaque sigil]

Because apple

[fast pagoda]

and of course 512gb ssd -> 2tb is another 600 bucks

which is ridiculous

[keen hatch]

this is also very interesting https://frame.work/desktop

[fast pagoda]

i'd go for an AI max 395+ mini pc before i hopped on this "opportunity" unfortunately and that's literally all down to them overpricing the options

went from reasonable to dumb rapidly

[glad path]

that isnt p10k is it?

[fast pagoda]

looks like it

[tender river]

not a zsh user

[fast pagoda]

:o

[glad path]

i thought so

[fast pagoda]

most shells have something that can get them to have the same setup

starship will do it for any shell i think

[glad path]

you can literally get that exact styling with p10k

[tender river]

https://github.com/IlanCosman/tide

[fast pagoda]

it looks like they yanked the image right off p10k repo lmao

[tender river]

ye but zsh clunky dont like it

[fast pagoda]

i dont think they did

but it looks like it

it's so similar

checks out

there are a lot of shell themes it turns out, i fell down the oh my zsh theme gallery rabbit hole the other day and there were hundreds of them

some very cool ones

[keen hatch]

Yeah, basic systems aren't expensive... but if you need something serious, the prices immediately become absurd.

[fast pagoda]

compare that to

https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure

this thing gets spency too obviously but

128 cores

• a rtx 6000 pro if you want for extra fun

512gb ram

[opaque sigil]

Ampere CPU huh

[fast pagoda]

https://amperecomputing.com/products/processors

yep

[keen hatch]

If you're going to build a PC, you'll have to do it yourself... with a smart approach, you can get the most for your money )

[fast pagoda]

oh yeah i mean that's what ive always done

but i also dont have a good source for an ampere altra

and fuking market is so ultra cooked that buying a prebuilt with like a 5090 and the 9950X3D im looking for can very easily end up cheaper

depending on sales and what time you look

then of course you have to figure out all the ways the builder fucked it up when they put it together as fast as possible and such but

[glad path]

how so

[fast pagoda]

fish has totally different syntax from bash family shells

well, bourne family shells

not TOTALLY different as in you can figure it out for sure but you can't just copy a command meant for bash or zsh and have it work instantly in fish sometimes which is why i always get rid of it instantly

Well, i usually try to use it if it's the default on w/e system i've set up and then get rid of it the second i hit a syntax issue because usually im trying to fix something and i aint got time for that

[tender river]

its autocompletion is just bad

[fast pagoda]

fish is "modern" and to be fair it has to change at some point

[tender river]

and its slow

[glad path]

i literally never use autocompletion

not sure if thats even part of zsh

[fast pagoda]

it is

[tender river]

tab

[silent cloak]

might start learning vim

[fast pagoda]

sounds based

even tho i am useless at vim still i acknowledge its usefulness despite my inability to sit down and fully figure it out in one go, ive been using it when i would have used nano etc

[silent cloak]

i only ever use nano for configs

[fast pagoda]

samezies

well till recently

i used nano any time i needed a txt editor in terminal which is to say configs usually, or just messing with a file but it's not particularly great for that

[silent cloak]

same

[opaque sigil]

If your goal is to figure out vim in one go you might want to reconsider your goals

[fast pagoda]

nah i gave up on that dream

piece by piece

[silent cloak]

i already memorized the basic actions in vim

and the most important thing of all

:qa