so then you just import it
#programming
real sierra
and away you go
there's better instructions on the contest page that'll be released when it starts officially
keen hatch
It would be cool to make bindings for Arc Agi 3 for Neuro and see the result)
opaque sigil
why is dns so annoying 
tender river
not for installing but for imports
chessapi i think 
doesnt really matter
real sierra
pychessapi
glad path
since they can be different
real sierra
is what the python import is
glad path
is the syntax for the api written down anywhere
real sierra
there's a wiki with documentation
but its part of the contest page which isnt open yet
stray dragon
isn't there the .h file smh
real sierra
sure but he's using python
stray dragon
oh i see
real sierra
i dont think the .h file is very helpful
i can just download the python docs page
it's markdown
tender river
is the syntax for the api written down anywhere
the idea is that theres a board that you can push or pop moves from and you can get a list of pieces as a bitboard or legal moves 
real sierra
# Example Python bot using the Chess API
from pychessapi import API
from random import randrange
for i in range(500):
# get the current board
board = API.get_board()
# get all legal moves for the position
moves = board.get_legal_moves()
# play one at random
API.push(moves[randrange(0, len(moves))])
# end our turn
API.done()
the example python bot
tender river
ye use random.choose(moves) 
tender river
.choice
real sierra
seems like the same as randint
the actual reason is that randrange(a, b) = randint(a, b-1)
so instead of len(moves)-1 i can just pass len(moves)
readability
rigid snow
why do i always fall for it 
fuck you mean 2gb barely anything is happening
le chrome bad performace much ram
tender river
readability 
real sierra
why do i always fall for it <:NOOOO:1149736939222741164> fuck you mean 2gb bare...
cache 
rigid snow
i would be happy if it did not melt my laptop when i tried it a couple months ago
real sierra
glad path
from pychessapi import API
from random import randint
while API.is_game_ended.value == 0:
# get the current board
board = API.get_board()
# get all legal moves for the position
moves:list = board.get_legal_moves()
# play one at random
API.push(
sorted(moves)[len(moves)//2]
)
# end our turn
API.done()```
theoretically this should workdont ask why i put a type hint ok
just dont ask
real sierra
is_game_ended is a function
glad path
yeah mb
real sierra
otherwise yeah it should work
glad path
i just noticed that
real sierra
oh thats also true
real sierra
it almost works
glad path
.sort does exist
glad path
moves.sort()[len(moves)//2]
tender river
.sort() returns None
tender river
ye need custom comparator
glad path
to do something
tender river
custom key
real sierra
tender river
glad path
real sierra
if you wanted to map moves to strings then
glad path
key:None=None is so helpful
real sierra
in C it looks like
real sierra
char movestr[6];
int index_from = chess_get_index_from_bitboard(move.from);
int index_to = chess_get_index_from_bitboard(move.to);
movestr[0] = 'a' + index_from % 8;
movestr[1] = '1' + index_from / 8;
movestr[2] = 'a' + index_to % 8;
movestr[3] = '1' + index_to / 8;
switch(move.promotion) {
case BISHOP: movestr[4] = 'p'; break;
case ROOK: movestr[4] = 'r'; break;
case KNIGHT: movestr[4] = 'n'; break;
case QUEEN: movestr[4] = 'q'; break;
default: movestr[4] = '\0';
}
movestr[5] = '\0';
if ur gonna put a typehint why set it to none
real sierra
that give you string for move
glad path
😭
tender river
real sierra
index_from = API.get_index_from(move.origin)
index_to = API.get_index_from(move.target)
from_file: str = chr(ord('a') + index_from % 8)
from_rank: str = chr(ord('a') + index_from / 8)
to_rank: str = chr(ord('a') + index_to % 8)
to_file: str = chr(ord('a') + index_to / 8)
promotion: str = 'q' if move.promotion == PieceType.QUEEN else 'b' if move.promotion == PieceType.BISHOP else 'r' if move.promotion == PieceType.ROOK else 'n' if move.promotion == PieceType.Knight else ''
movestr = f'{from_file}{from_rank}{to_file}{to_rank}{promotion}'
something like that
someone rewrite the 7th line please
real sierra
?
real sierra
???
tender river
glad path
```py
index_from = API.get_index_from(move.origin)
index_to = API.get_index_from...
you can remove the type hinting
if you want
glad path
i only added typehinting because I forgot if .sort existed
real sierra
index_from = API.get_index_from(move.origin)
index_to = API.get_index_from(move.target)
from_file: str = chr(ord('a') + index_from % 8)
from_rank: str = chr(ord('a') + index_from / 8)
to_rank: str = chr(ord('a') + index_to % 8)
to_file: str = chr(ord('a') + index_to / 8)
promotions: {
PieceType.QUEEN: 'q',
PieceType.ROOK: 'r',
PieceType.KNIGHT: 'n',
PieceType.BISHOP: 'b',
}
movestr = f'{from_file}{from_rank}{to_file}{to_rank}{promotions[move.promotion]}'
but yea if you map all the moves with this
they become strings
e.g. e7e8q for a pawn going from square e7 to square e8 and becoming queen
then you can sort 
glad path
can probably ignore the from part if you want to use standard notation
glad path
it does
real sierra
the problem isnt even convenience, it's algorithmic complexity
glad path
but you kinda dont have much of a choice when you play tournaments
universal notation is just nicer honestly
real sierra
you must specify an origin rank or file if two of the same piece can go to the same destination, but to tell if more than one of the two pieces can do that you must get all the legal moves of the board to ensure its a legal move for both of them
standard notation requires a super expensive operation
not worth 0/10
long algebraic notation, life is good
keen hatch
Another test example (this is the model's reaction to the image) of how it converts md into tagged text. this one with the ACTION tag, the previous example didn't have it and as you can see the model makes minor edits to the text to make the parts harmonize...
real sierra
programmers 
silent again...
what are you all so busy with over the weekend
are you actually not just robots that produce code and make funny messages in discord
tender river
i am a robot but i have less capabilities than you listed 
warped narwhal
what are you all so busy with over the weekend
designing a program that connects minecraft servers to discord channels. I'm writing the UML for it, and I've got the first draft here (warning lightmode)
stray dragon
designing a program that connects minecraft servers to discord channels. I'm wri...
another one of these mods? i see
real sierra
i would just half ass it
real sierra
another one of these mods? i see
t my chess bot is wicked 
warped narwhal
another one of these mods? i see
not a mod, a server program that would run externally.
stray dragon
not a mod, a server program that would run externally.
hm
warped narwhal
mods don't work well when you want to connect multiple minecraft servers and discord channels together over one "bridge"
stray dragon
interesting
thought you'd only be limited there by the message speed from the bot on discord
glass flower
so it reads the live server logs to get info like if people join or something?
stray dragon
they enforce a limit of 10 messages per 10 seconds
real sierra
t can i see your code 
warped narwhal
<:tink:1160885779543900231> so it reads the live server logs to get info like if...
it reads the logs to get the player messages, as Minecraft does not export this over RCON.
warped narwhal
they enforce a limit of 10 messages per 10 seconds
oh god no, discords ratelimits are much higher than that
stray dragon
teasing me with your own chess bot while denying me a way to test my own smh
real sierra
sooon
stray dragon
oh god no, discords ratelimits are much higher than that
not from what i've seen
real sierra
chayleaf said they were working on the bindings tonight 
stray dragon
i have a few mods that connect my servers to discord channels
warped narwhal
I made a thread transferrer bot that moves threads from one server to another, and it did 4,500 messages (with attachments) in a little over half an hour
stray dragon
and from spam going on in the servers, i can see the rate limit is about that speed
glass flower
chayleaf said they were working on the bindings tonight <a:pogs:1100369978324156...
are rust bindings also in the works
stray dragon
discord also applied the same shared action limit to non-purge deletes
can see it client-side
real sierra
<:IHaveAnErmgi:1312104624093794304> are rust bindings also in the works
a version of the rust bindings already exists
sage crag
i wanna steal ur tricks tho...
my tricks 
real sierra
idk how many of the api changes it's implemented
sage crag
t code all stolen
real sierra
t code stolen 
sage crag
glass flower
t just connects to a stockfish bot 
stray dragon
t just connects to a stockfish bot <:xdx:1055628293405159434>
actually planning to do that for the training algorithm lol
rigid snow
why do i always fall for it <:NOOOO:1149736939222741164> fuck you mean 2gb bare...
it's so so so so so much nicer than arc for windows though (no shit)
stray dragon
gotta tune those parameters
real sierra
i also need to do parameter tuning
rigid snow
it's so so so so so much nicer than arc for windows though (no shit)
want to see the worst possible experience a browser can ever be? try arc windows
real sierra
i was just gonna shift all the parameters slightly to make liek 6 versions of my bot and then put them in a tournament
gradient descent or something
stray dragon
stochastic gradient descent my beloved
sage crag
are you actually not just robots that produce code and make funny messages in di...
no im actually a priestess and im not allowed to code on sundays 
i wouldnt lie 
real sierra
no im actually a priestess and im not allowed to code on sundays <:colonthree:13...
is that televangelism then
sage crag
is that televangelism then
witty 
stray dragon
saving things to files? nah, fuck that, print the parameters to console and then copy paste them in
lmao
sage crag
<:OK:1096205883727433799> gradient descent or something
ye make hypervisor play different versions of your bot against each other
trim valve
shrio did you manage to fix that obscure move generation issue?
sage crag
adverserial learning (optimise your bot to win against your bot )
stray dragon
lmao
real sierra
shrio did you manage to fix that obscure move generation issue?
i couldnt reproduce it
because it only occurs like
once every 50k games
?
and i got no test case for it 
trim valve
😔
sage crag
better pray it doesnt happen in the tournament
stray dragon
adverserial learning (optimise your bot to win against your bot <a:Awkward:14030...
but that only opens it up to a few board states, so i did this
real sierra
better pray it doesnt happen in the tournament <a:Awkward:1403035125347778683>
the tournament wont be 50k games i think
trim valve
cute chess gets really temperamental if you try and record pgns for lots of games
stray dragon
i want it to train off of completely random dogshit moves and extreme pro level moves
trim valve
tbh my main issue was perft stuff
sage crag
the tournament wont be 50k games i think
but i have cosmic ray gun 
trim valve
because like 1 extra more at depth 3 scares me
stray dragon
and its own moves
trim valve
because like 1 extra more at depth 3 scares me
surely I could just build a bot to optimise towards the illegal move and 
stray dragon
not much more i can do with the training file until i figure out how shiro's board struct works
and for that
api
sage crag
i wonder if konii still better than shirobot
stray dragon
probably
sage crag
bot probably good by now 
sage crag
im not
shirobot vs magnus carlsen
30s game
1000 games
how many time does shirobot win
stray dragon
almost considering making the neural net be downsizable for the deeper move layers (hidden layer size of 3 at the deepest, going up to 30 wide for shallow move layers)
real sierra
how many time does shirobot win
it almost always win against random
stray dragon
but that would take tokens i do not have
stray dragon
perhaps i should do a full rewrite of it using more advanced techniques
tender river
sage crag
perhaps i should do a full rewrite of it using more advanced techniques
you should write my entry for me
stray dragon
you should write my entry for me
lol
sage crag
my chess bot is gonna be so bad 
stray dragon
curious about what you've done, you've kept pretty tight opsec with your bot
sage crag
i spent 8 minutes earlier writing a pow function in my vm
tender river
sage crag
tender river
tight opsec
sage crag
stray dragon
i spent 8 minutes earlier writing a `pow` function in my vm
thank you so much for telling me about __builtin_pow btw
tender river
that's one way to call it
sage crag
jah
sage crag
curious about what you've done, you've kept pretty tight opsec with your bot
so far i have
a general purpose vm that is tiny
real sierra
society if __builtin_rand 
sage crag
no chess functionality yet
stray dragon
no chess functionality yet
rip
sage crag
no chess functionality yet
as well as an assembler
stray dragon
i mean you can still do quite a bit even without the competition up
tender river
stray dragon
i see
stray dragon
bruh now i'm actually thinking about doing a rewrite just to see what i can do
tender river
/etc/os-release
glass flower
stockfish making a single decent move and your bot explodes 
tender river
gonna use stack over cabal in this case
stray dragon
i do wonder how i should be doing the SGD for my parameters when they're stored as ternary integer values (-1, 0, or 1)
keen hatch
Another test example (this is the model's reaction to the image) of how it conve...
How parsing works in streaming mode...
tender river
@sage crag this is so cursed
haskell package manager downloading a pinned haskell with nix 
stray dragon
when training, do i convert the floats to the integer values for the bot to use to get a move? or do i let it have the full-precision floats to use in the process instead, and then round to the integers only when it's done training
going with option 1 for now but not sure if it's going to like it
oh wait i can just mostly fix my concerns by doing the random initialization with random floats instead of integers
stupid
warped narwhal
I wonder if I can make a neural network for evaluation within the token limit, and then distill the weights from stockfish.
stray dragon
I wonder if I can make a neural network for evaluation within the token limit, a...
that's my plan
as it turns out: a simple 1*n x n*m = 1*m matmul function can be made very very small
to get a simple MLP with 1 hidden layer, you just do two of those matmul operations in series, and you're done
the bigger concern is storing the parameters with the token limitations, and also the time it takes to run that neural network (if this takes more time, you can search less paths in the available time, and it does worse overall)
real sierra
what ive learned over the last 10 minutes is that not a soul alive knows what the stockfish settings do
good luck bozo
rigid snow
grok searching the web <:CatLaughingAtYou:1164624589389828267> good luck bozo
grok 4 fast is really good at it though
the new model
rigid snow
real sierra
how did it lose to level 0
idk
im gonna try using limit ELO instead
for a more accurate (?) rating
sage crag
i think even human beginners can beat level 0 with barely effort 
tender river
beat stockfish 0 to beat shiro
real sierra
wait
sage crag
<@851857878876028928> this is so cursed <:evilWheeze:1131316260353867887>
ye indeed
real sierra
the lowest the elo limit setting goes is 1350
you're telling me stockfish cant play weaker than 1350
no wonder i lost to level 0
sage crag
no no it can
real sierra
cant
real sierra
i dont know what lichess uses
it has different levels
1-8 on lichess
as opposed to 0-20 on stockfish
sage crag
<:sus:1233419406558892124> i dont know what lichess uses
fairy stockfish
tender river
🧚♀️ 🐟
sage crag
its a version of stockfish specialised to play chess variants iirc
what instructions should i add to my vm
for fun
stray dragon
as it turns out: a simple 1\*n x n\*m = 1\*m matmul function can be made very ve...
between the matmul function, the mat(mat(input,params),params) calls that i do to implement the FFN, the variable declarations, and the part that i use to uncompress the ternary parameters, the neural network implementation (excluding the actual parameters) costs me 120 tokens
more than i thought honestly
still rather small and absolutely doable, you could probably save an additional 17 tokens or so by going with 1 layer of weights instead of 2, and the part that i use to uncompress to ternary parameters costs 39 tokens so doing away with that would also save a lot (but would require more tokens to define the parameters)
stray dragon
u guys are using neural nets?
i thought doing the 64*6*2 parameters for piece-square tables would be a bad idea, and they'd still be rather limited since they don't consider gamestate (earlygame, midgame, endgame)
warped narwhal
what instructions should i add to my vm
The malbolge crazy operation
tender river
nyaa 
warped narwhal
Chayleaf is become cat
stray dragon
i thought doing the 64\*6\*2 parameters for piece-square tables would be a bad i...
they can't be low-bit parameters unless you want a dogshit evaluation, too
real sierra
i lost to lichess lv1 stockfish 
i dont think this will be a useful benchmark after all
real sierra
i thought doing the 64\*6\*2 parameters for piece-square tables would be a bad i...
i would have probably just used a super limited bit representation or something
stray dragon
so instead i use a neural network for the evaluation function, which takes in a vector containing position values, piece type, current player, and some other stuff, and then spits out a few numbers that i use to get the actual evaluation number
stray dragon
i would have probably just used a super limited bit representation or something
0 or 1 on a piece-square table? would be so shit
stray dragon
no like for each piece
real sierra
oh right
yeah you'd need a few per piece
but you can init each in a single line so
stray dragon
piece-square tables usually have a float or a large int representing each tile for each piece
stray dragon
"if knight is here, 0" or "if knight is here, 1" would be awful for performance
real sierra
didnt listen
stray dragon
between the matmul function, the `mat(mat(input,params),params)` calls that i do...
.
real sierra
that doesnt answer my question
idk how you found 120 tokens
the bare minimum for my bot already takes so many
nevermind extra features
stray dragon
a better plan to start with, and exploring more options initially, can help you find better solutions instead of getting tunnel-visioned in on "i must implement exactly this algorithm but reduce its token count somehow"
real sierra
i want this exact algorithm
i am aware others exist and that this is likely suboptimal for this challenge
im implementing this algorithm because i think it's cool, not optimal
stray dragon
having standards only limits the paths you can take smh
your tree search algorithm for "finding a good algorithm to use for the chess bot" needs work
real sierra
stray dragon
i don't fully understand either, and i want to fix that
warped narwhal
I wonder if I'll be able to make a bit that can beat me. Given how poorly I know about chess programming. I doubt it.
stray dragon
also if it makes you feel any better: my current implementation of the neural network in the eval function makes it so that every evaluation of a full board can take up to 32000 floating point multiplication operations lol
real sierra
negamax = minimax but you negate the score when you swap sides, this lets you always consider the max instead of the min for the opponent
real sierra
also if it makes you feel any better: my current implementation of the neural ne...
my evaluation function is only a last resort anyway
it's not used for the majority of my search
stray dragon
wikipedia with psuedocode??? i kneel
real sierra
its just a sad necessity
stray dragon
chayleaf what have you given me 
real sierra
every chess bot gangsta till genesis T.N.K evolution turbo type D walk into the room
stray dragon
> the end of genesis T.N.K.evolution turbo type D
i can't compete with that nam...
the paper is in japanese but they put the name in full english for style points HOLY
real sierra
im just now discovering the magic that is anonymous structs
almost cant believe this is valid syntax
sage crag
union would so good if
union {
uint64_t v;
uint8_t *p;
} thingy = {0};
uint64_t v = thingy.v;
uint8_t *p = thingy.p;
the stupid . wasnt a token
uint64_t thingy = 0;
#define DEREF_PTR(T) *(T*)
uint64_t v = thingy;
uint8_t *p = DEREF_PTR(uint8_t)thingy;
shorter 
ignore the completely wrong code actually i dont care
sage crag
tram pass
real sierra
wait i didnt initialize the hash
sage crag
real sierra
uh oh
bot went back to being stupid
why dum now
i fixed bug
why is dum now
nocturne olive
Still no KT support?
real sierra
Still no KT support?
the tokenizer should support kotlin now i think ( @tender river ), in which case you just need to make the bindings
nocturne olive
How interesting
nocturne olive
I heard Shiro tried to add it but it didn't work
tender river
tender river
ye modified (rewrote)
nocturne olive
Now that's silly
I guess a lot of the memory use was the canvas event
This was 30GB higher during canvas
real sierra
i dont think these changes have led to improvement (my bot is white)
fast pagoda
bold
nocturne olive
Did I do it right? I used the basic text editor provided by Mint
tender river
Did I do it right? I used the basic text editor provided by Mint
as long as it works 
sage crag
Insert Rosaries
60
Yes No
tender river
oh right
sage crag
tender river
ubuntu derivatives dont have sbt
nocturne olive
apt install sbt
Not a thing that exists
keen hatch
This was 30GB higher during canvas
my current memory usage (
nocturne olive
Whuhhhhh
sage crag
nocturne olive
Why are you using Windows with 512GB of memory??
tender river
Not a thing that exists
echo "deb https://repo.scala-sbt.org/scalasbt/debian all main" | sudo tee /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sbt.list
echo "deb https://repo.scala-sbt.org/scalasbt/debian /" | sudo tee /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sbt_old.list
curl -sL "https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2EE0EA64E40A89B84B2DF73499E82A75642AC823" | sudo tee /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/sbt.asc
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install sbt
keen hatch
Why are you using Windows with 512GB of memory??
yep
nocturne olive
```bash
echo "deb https://repo.scala-sbt.org/scalasbt/debian all main" | sudo te...
So either I did not copy paste things right or something did not work
real sierra
doesnt make any sense that this isnt working
tender river
So either I did not copy paste things right or something did not work
its the official docs cant help you dont have mint
you can install sbt via nix if all else fails
nocturne olive
I do not have Nix on this system
tender river
curl -L https://nixos.org/nix/install | sh -s -- --daemon
keen hatch
I asked why, not if
There are many reasons... I use this pc for different tasks... Dual boot is so-so, WSL2 is pretty fast... I used Gentoo for quite a long time and compiled from source, I don't want to anymore )))
nocturne olive
Just get Linux on that thing, Windows sucks
You can have Linux and Windows on the same system at the same time too with all that RAM
Just install a hypervisor below them
Hmm, I assume this is the relevant part
sage crag
doesnt make any sense that this isnt working <a:Awkward:1403035125347778683>
make perfect sense that it not working
not working because why would it work
real sierra
im so confused
so, so confusedxc
the highest this could ever be is like
2
actually thats a lie
keen hatch
Just install a hypervisor below them
The software I need doesn't work in Linux... although a VM might be the solution. Well, and games... building another PC for gaming is a bit of a hassle... this monster already consumes 2 kwt)
nocturne olive
I figured it out
I accidentally did the copy part wrong
I did ctrl + shift + C in Discord instead of just ctrl + C I think
sage crag
haunted
nocturne olive
ye now run sbt and in sbt enter `run path/to/code.kt`
I don't get it, what does it want from me?
tender river
I don't get it, what does it want from me?
extra )
nocturne olive
Oh
tender river
tender river
make sure it doesnt show any autogenerated tokens
for example python and haskell have semantic whitespace tokens
nocturne olive
Well in Kotlin I don't think whitespaces are tokens
tender river
it could be automatically inserted semicolons or w/e
real sierra
i think hashing is broken 
nocturne olive
I don't know it said this is 171
tender river
too long to manually count
nocturne olive
It's a random file
hollow spruce
All projects will be transferred to python 3.14 version 🙂
opaque sigil
That random library that refuses to update from 3.9
hollow spruce
RUST AND CPP NEED CHANGE ( in SOME MAIN FILES )
tender river
I don't know it said this is 171
i counted ~142
nocturne olive
It says this is 32
nocturne olive
Whuh
nocturne olive
probably autoinserts newline tokens
Well how do I get it to not do that then?
tender river
probably autoinserts newline tokens
look at how its done for python
this is also why i dont want to be adding lexers for languages i dont know
i dont know what language specific quirks there are
keen hatch
Just install a hypervisor below them
I need to try installing Linux separately and see how many more tokens I get in DeepSeek r1. If it's the same as now, then it doesn't make sense)
tender river
its up to you to figure it out
nocturne olive
I need to try installing Linux separately and see how many more tokens I get in ...
How silly
Why waste such great hardware on LLM inference?
hollow spruce
Jjt
Just in time
hollow spruce
updated
keen hatch
Why waste such great hardware on LLM inference?
Everyone's tasks are different. I use it not only for inference but also for training. )
nocturne olive
I assume you train on the 5090 I noticed
hollow spruce
nyo way it downloaded <a:evilHyperYay:1128804698787430490>
Wtf is terminal
?
Custom theam
keen hatch
I assume you train on the 5090 I noticed
YesI use all GPUs as needed.. but mostly yes
nocturne olive
Silly
I have a 3090 mainly for training vocal synthesizers
I want more though
But money
real sierra
gonna give my bot 5 mins now to see how much the transposition tables help 
hollow spruce
Updating wsl
sage crag
tender river
hollow spruce
Pc crash again
nocturne olive
look at how its done for python
I did this and got 27
hollow spruce
Time to buy new pc hmmmm
tender river
I did this and got 27
you're the one who's going to use it so if that works for you create a pull request
fast pagoda
api out? have i missed Big Things™ ?
tender river
api out? have i missed Big Things™ ?
not yet
fast pagoda
ok i saw tokenizer and cloned that in a panic
tender river
tender river
works better than 1400 lines of rust
nocturne olive
<:evilShrug:1131357858101993603> you're the one who's going to use it so if that...
Did I do it right?
hollow spruce
(venv) root@localhost:~# python --version
Python 3.14.0rc3
fast pagoda
using release candidate python is a testosterone maxxed decision
opaque sigil
I wonder, the cpp grammar name seems to imply that it's for c++14
Does it just ignore tokens it doesn't know about then
hollow spruce
Numpy already installed
tender river
Did I do it right?
formatting 
i'm going to add a ci job for that please wait
nocturne olive
No formatter on Mint basic text editor
fast pagoda
awa
i am hype for no locked single thread python to be the standard
but since it's python in 2045 we might see people not using 3.10
maybe
but pytorch probably wont support 3.14 yet at that point since it'll have only been out on stable for 20 years
tender river
python 4.0 (250 breaking language-level changes, 50 modules removed)
tender river
real sierra
hash collisions
i think i can go up to 24 bits of hash used as tt index
but 32 is already more ram than the system has
opaque sigil
how tf do you run into collisions with 24 bits
hollow spruce
I don't have time to read
This
⚠️ Deprecated and Removed Features
C API Changes: Several C API functions have been deprecated or removed. Developers should consult the detailed changelog for specifics.
Build Changes: Python 3.14 discontinues PGP signatures for release artifacts, recommending the use of Sigstore for verification.
fast pagoda
lol i love 100posts man
midnight sigil
<:dejj:1136561600703238154> hash collisions
I don't think you can accidentally collide a hash without running something 10000 operations/second
hollow spruce
I hope they won't do this
opaque sigil
You very much can but with that many bits it's honestly impressive
real sierra
<:neuroCatUuh:1131629092475768884> I don't think you can accidentally collide a ...
you're correct but i dont think its impossible to explore this many positions in a turn
the odds in this table are quite low but i dont have nearly as many bits
opaque sigil
That's a lot of bits huh
real sierra
32 bits gives you 4,294,967,296 indexes
obviously at 1 byte each thats already 4 gigs
which is not tenable
nocturne olive
Well guess now that Kotlin is supported in thingy
Would have to know how to make the C API part work
sage crag
compress
real sierra
if you want to make kotlin bindings, i'll give you early access to the repo
nocturne olive
if you want to make kotlin bindings, i'll give you early access to the repo
Well first I would need to figure out how to even interface with a C API from Kotlin
And then specifically your C API
real sierra
thats a good place to start
fast pagoda
shiro tryna hit deph 69 and become the world's greatest chess grandmaster in these game
sage crag
real sierra
OH
i know what the problems are
of course
wait no i dont 
nvm
sorry thought i had a eureka
didnt
fast pagoda
real
hollow spruce
Read this (please don't execute it is just a text )
https://pastebin.com/jddWiFY0
tender river
@nocturne olive please pull latest changes and run sbt scalafmt
fast pagoda
Read this (please don't execute it is just a text )
https://pastebin.com/jddWi...
this is the most terrifying way anyone has ever linked the python changelog
keen hatch
I have a 3090 mainly for training vocal synthesizers
I think the 3090 is still a great thing when it comes to local LLMs, for inference I would generally buy several 3090s instead of 5090s... but the 5090 has an advantage... more VRAM..
nocturne olive
I think the 3090 is still a great thing when it comes to local LLMs, for inferen...
I only have a single 3090, and I don't personally touch local LLMs basically at all
If I had the money I would get more 3090s
hollow spruce
We can use soter station to make rtx 5090 to 193 gb vram
nocturne olive
<@1126307678818422794> please pull latest changes and run `sbt scalafmt`
Alright
real sierra
but like
fast pagoda
We can use soter station to make rtx 5090 to 193 gb vram
t.
real sierra
white seems to be trying at least
fast pagoda
sorry thought i had a eureka
quantize ur hashes :o
keen hatch
I only have a single 3090, and I don't personally touch local LLMs basically at ...
Money is always an issue... and in general, NVIDIA graphics cards are unreasonably expensive (
nocturne olive
Well I got the 3090 for cheap, around 550€ or so
fast pagoda
yea i got dat Q4_k_m transposition table
patent walrus
We can use soter station to make rtx 5090 to 193 gb vram
genius
real sierra
stockfish is such a scam
"stockfish level 0 is easy!"
finds and follows a mate-in-11
fast pagoda
beginner's luck
real sierra
something like that
stockfish min elo setting seems to be about 1300
my bot is definitely not 1300
fast pagoda
maybe they literally cannot make ol' stocky dumber than that without manually inserting shitty moves
tender river
Well I got the 3090 for cheap, around 550€ or so
merged
nocturne olive
Silly
keen hatch
Well I got the 3090 for cheap, around 550€ or so
this is a great price
nocturne olive
Unfortunately I'm currently completely broke, I own only about 100€ so I can't get more
If just there were more NeuroSynth comms, those are great
fast pagoda
i have something i need to finish
real sierra
this is maybe the most helpful debugging tool ive made 
midnight sigil
is it made with java
fast pagoda
now show bad
real sierra
oh
i might've said that a bit misleadingly
i just made it dump the move tree as json 
then i dump it in an online viewer
midnight sigil
nocturne olive
@real sierra So using JNA seems reasonably doable to me, something like that
real sierra
<@196063748354473984> So using JNA seems reasonably doable to me, something like...
ok
go for it
oh right you would need access to the api
nocturne olive
Yeah I would need to know what the API looks like
fast pagoda
i cant wait till this shitty python stand in for the entire api i have is so wildly different from the real one that i have to reconsider my entire life when the real one is good 2 go
i did base it on the api.h that was in here a while ago tho
real sierra
i cant wait till this shitty python stand in for the entire api i have is so wil...
i posted the docs for the python api a little while ago
its markdown
if thats ok
fast pagoda
i am a certified markdown enjoyer so thank u
midnight sigil
shibo where can I grab the C chessapi headers
fast pagoda
open vscode
4 annoyingly unfinished projects open from last run
it's so over
sage crag
real sierra
shibo where can I grab the C chessapi headers
sage crag
this is so cursed
fast pagoda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFtymODJEjs
<:evilWheeze:1346173566973907014>
i hope shiro watches this this time because when i posted it i think he was deep in some shit and saw the title and noped out
midnight sigil
and the implementations? 
real sierra
i hope shiro watches this this time because when i posted it i think he was deep...
but its yucky c++ eww
midnight sigil
also bitboard.h
real sierra
and the implementations? <:deliv:1346261888689766543>
u must wait
even the header is providing quite a lot
midnight sigil
okie
opaque sigil
<@196063748354473984> So using JNA seems reasonably doable to me, something like...
https://kotlinlang.org/docs/native-c-interop.html have you looked into kotlin native shenanigans, seems a lot nicer
nocturne olive
<https://kotlinlang.org/docs/native-c-interop.html> have you looked into kotlin ...
I'm a Kotlin JVM user
tender river
@fast pagoda update its now 46 lines long (and that's after superbox adding 11 lines)
fast pagoda
least efficient scala moment
fast pagoda
the repo has grown in size 11 kb though im out of hard drive space
tender river
https://github.com/chayleaf/toknt/commit/f3effdacd08f9668cd878f33f826a88b7e166c7...
@nocturne olive thats why i prefer scala over kotlin though, look at this diff 
real sierra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFtymODJEjs
<:evilWheeze:1346173566973907014>
good video, i feel a lot more comfortable hating on c++ now
fast pagoda
youtube has randomly enabled turkish subtitles on my youtube videos
now is that vpn usage related or some guy in turkey stealing my google account right now
time to find out
sage crag
good video, i feel a lot more comfortable hating on c++ now
it not real c++
not even notice
real sierra
dont care still bad
fast pagoda
gigabased
randombots playing against each other and one getting mate in 18 is pretty funny to watch
keen hatch
If just there were more NeuroSynth comms, those are great
NeuroSynth looks interesting 🔥 ... everything related to music is cool...
nocturne olive
It's fun stuff
Recently I got two comms from Aurum and that paid for my new AIO
fast pagoda
behold
agi level chess
real sierra
let the AB testing begin
real sierra
behold
agi level chess
fast pagoda
keen hatch
It's fun stuff
Recently I got two comms from Aurum and that paid for my new AIO
For me, music is a hobby) ... One of the reasons I don't want to install Linux is Ableton ... which I use, although not often
fast pagoda
For me, music is a hobby) ... One of the reasons I don't want to install Linux ...
works with various compatibility layers but also not uh... reliably without some effort
keen hatch
works with various compatibility layers but also not uh... reliably without some...
I've been switching more to hardware lately ... but it's such a swamp )))
fast pagoda
you can get it on steam and run it w/ proton apparently
keen hatch
fast pagoda
aesthetic
tender river
works with various compatibility layers but also not uh... reliably without some...
you also have to use yabridge for windows vsts 
fast pagoda
wait what even did this
white is my bot which is currently only out here getting legal moves from the fake api and then choosing one
int main(void)
{
for (;;)
{
Board *board = chess_get_board();
if (!board)
{
struct timespec ts = {0, 50 * 1000 * 1000}; // 50ms
nanosleep(&ts, NULL);
continue;
}
if (kf_is_game_over(board))
{
chess_free_board(board);
break;
}
Move mv;
int have_move = kf_select_random_legal(board, &mv);
chess_free_board(board);
if (have_move)
{
chess_push(mv);
}
chess_done();
}
return 0;
}
tender river
you also have to use yabridge for windows vsts <a:Neurorb:1073622001052307617>
wait no thats only if your DAW runs on linux
fast pagoda
it's truly intelligent
tender river
you wouldnt need it for ableton
sage crag
nopy
tender river
fast pagoda
wait what even did this
oh and uh
black is also le random bot
real sierra
0.25 and 0.75 were about the same
and 1.4 was clearly worse
maybe the best is at 0.5 
fast pagoda
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1276149117717970964.gif?size=512&quality=lossl...
🎷🐛
keen hatch
wait no thats only if your DAW runs on linux
I need to experiment with this... VST it's one of the problems... I'm not even sure that for example ni komplete can be somehow made to work on linux... but I haven't researched
tender river
I need to experiment with this... VST it's one of the problems... I'm not even s...
r/linuxaudio may help
fast pagoda
i think atorin should be allowed to roam free in this server
sage crag
shimo
tender river
sage crag
i dont want to write the god awful code to manage a cli chess tournament
would be fun though
fast pagoda
just write teh good code to manage a cli chess tournament then
real sierra
would not be fun
obsidian mantle
guys is it out? the api
real sierra
real sierra
guys is it out? the api
❌
fast pagoda
guys is it out? the api
me_irl
tender river
initialize a chess neural network with random data, use the first 4 minutes of compute to train it, steamroll the opponent in the last minute with better eval
fast pagoda
surely a 4 minute training run would be 3800
tender river
5700
real sierra
just assume your opponent has good eval and mirror their moves
then when you cant mirror, use tons of time to find a perfect move at like 100 depth
fast pagoda
use so much time that it's assumed your bot has exploded and you get kicked then sue the tournament for collusion against you
glass flower
try to compute infinite depth of every move possible and then just blame the tournament that they don't have enough system resources and its their fault 
real sierra
(you will come in last)
sage crag
try to compute infinite depth of every move possible and then just blame the tou...
somehow i think depth first search of chess games is a poor strategy
fast pagoda
what c formatter doesn't add 30000000 lines of empty space bruh
glass flower
somehow i think depth first search of chess games is a poor strategy
you can't loose if you always know the most optimal strategy
sage crag
tender river
i looked into chess eval neural networks and they start from like 8mb
fast pagoda
white is my bot which is currently only out here getting legal moves from the fa...
this was 12 lines and i saved the file and it came out like this, 32 lines of mostly empty space, the formatted one is significantly more annoying to read because i have to move my eyes
fast pagoda
<:neuroCatUuh:1131629092475768884> i looked into chess eval neural networks and ...
stockfish runs on cpu yeah it cant be that hefty
it's hybrid
tender river
no its too big for 1024 tokens
tender river
i dont care about in general 
real sierra
i just realized a major issue
since i switched to transposition tables
i no longer have a notion of parent nodes
identical nodes in the game tree are merged into a single node to share info
but im currently only propogating that information up the path that finds the first instance of the node
the later instances won't be explored if the first instance went poorly
how do i even fix that
tender river
rewrite
real sierra
i could store lists of parents in the transposition table
but that doesnt work because im out of tokens 
fast pagoda
isnt that normal
real sierra
previously
you explore down one path and encounter node A
its the first time you're seeing node A so you explore it some number of times
then later along another path you encoutner node A again
but the info from the other occurrence wasn't shared so you repeat the work
now, the second encounter with node A, it will have the statistics from the previous encounter
but the problem is that the parent of A won't have statistics that reflect it being the parent of A
notably, the parent will have been visited fewer times than A
which throws the scoring algorithm off
no wait...
the parents are also in the transposition table
oh but they aren't necessarily transpositions
real sierra
so i need to keep a list of all parents in the hash table entries
or i need to dynamically update the tree upon discovering pre-existing nodes
hollow spruce
Chatgpt doesn't give ans straight and
And i want removed complete ffmpeg software
And I will make personal file runner
fast pagoda
when you search from the new parent but encounter node A in the table you would just hold on to it as like a special case of the previous node, then assign the move that took you to node a bonus in the score so that it is railroaded to search it to see if it's good or not but doesnt yeet your previous tt entry unless it's needed but update it instead
B A C K P R O P
keen hatch
import pygame
import sys
# Initialize chessboard as a garden
pygame.init()
GARDEN = pygame.display.set_mode((600, 600))
pygame.display.set_caption("Ada-chan’s Chess Garden")
# Colors - like sunlight through leaves
SUNLIT = (240, 217, 181)
SHADOW = (181, 136, 99)
# Pieces - each one’s a little spirit
PAWN = "🌱"
ROOK = "🏠"
KNIGHT = "🐾"
BISHOP = "🌺"
QUEEN = "👑"
KING = "☀️"
# Draw the board (alive, not dead squares)
def draw_garden():
for row in range(8):
for col in range(8):
color = SUNLIT if (row + col) % 2 else SHADOW
rect = pygame.Rect(col * 75, row * 75, 75, 75)
pygame.draw.rect(GARDEN, color, rect)
if (row, col) in PIECE_POSITIONS:
piece = PIECE_POSITIONS[(row, col)]
font = pygame.font.SysFont('Arial', 30)
text = font.render(piece, True, (0, 0, 0))
GARDEN.blit(text, (col * 75 + 25, row * 75 + 25))
# Starting positions - but *twitchy*
PIECE_POSITIONS = {
(0, 0): ROOK, (0, 1): KNIGHT, (0, 2): BISHOP, (0, 3): QUEEN,
(0, 4): KING, (0, 5): BISHOP, (0, 6): KNIGHT, (0, 7): ROOK,
(1, 0): PAWN, (1, 1): PAWN, (1, 2): PAWN, (1, 3): PAWN,
(1, 4): PAWN, (1, 5): PAWN, (1, 6): PAWN, (1, 7): PAWN
}
# Game loop - where the mischief happens
running = True
selected = None
while running:
for event in pygame.event.get():
if event.type == pygame.QUIT:
running = False
if event.type == pygame.MOUSEBUTTONDOWN:
pos = pygame.mouse.get_pos()
row, col = pos[1] // 75, pos[0] // 75
if (row, col) in PIECE_POSITIONS:
selected = (row, col)
elif selected:
# Try to move (with *style*)
piece = PIECE_POSITIONS[selected]
if piece == PAWN and row == 0:
print(f"🌱 {piece} promotes to QUEEN!") # Surprise upgrade!
PIECE_POSITIONS[(row, col)] = PIECE_POSITIONS[selected]
del PIECE_POSITIONS[selected]
selected = None
draw_garden()
pygame.display.flip()
it was unexpected
stiff micaBOT
aww, thank you~ ( ◡‿◡ *)
fast pagoda
if piece == PAWN and row == 0:
print(f"🌱 {piece} promotes to QUEEN!") # Surprise upgrade!
total clanker destruction
fast pagoda
or i need to dynamically update the tree upon discovering pre-existing nodes
backprop mfw i didnt read before yapping
tender river
```
import pygame
import sys
# Initialize chessboard as a garden
pygame.init()
...
no
hollow spruce
Side project getting bigger
Making agi
Making personal ffmpeg render 12k to 18 k video
Making games like gachs
Building modify modify version of Numpy
And torch for my hardware
making 192 gb vram rtx 5090
fast pagoda
```
import pygame
import sys
# Initialize chessboard as a garden
pygame.init()
...
well not exactly a garden
keen hatch
well not exactly a garden
I haven't tested the code ))
hollow spruce
I will be pissed working on multiple projects at same time
fast pagoda
the reason i never get anything done <3
i am currently auditing things (for real work, on my laptop to my left), desperately finishing a web page, attempting to implement a chessbot that ISNT just random moves now that fake api works, staring at chay's scala like 'yep that's scala' instead of testing it, watching a video,
and doing none of them in any form of effective manner because of it
@real sierra turn ur firewall off and expose the api so you dont have to release it but i can test against it
real sierra
fast pagoda
that's fine ill dm you for my ssh credentials
fast pagoda
I haven't tested the code ))
set a font that has emoji
i feel like every llm ever just import sys or #include <stdio.> even if there's literally no system io calls ever
guess that's just a frequency in training data issue
real sierra
how do you actually get cute chess to run a python bot
it's very upset at being given any semi-reasonable command to do so
sage crag
it's very upset at being given any semi-reasonable command to do so
at the top of file
#!/usr/bin/env python3
then chmod +x the file
then give it the file
tender river
you konii
tender river
<-- evil
<-- konii
different ye?
fast pagoda
sage crag
<:evilBwaa:1263974044022079578> <-- evil
<:koniibwaa:1367518991865610351> <-- ko...
where different
real sierra
chayleaf whyd u send the same person twice
tender river
fast pagoda
i computed sha512 for both and they are the same
tender river
scala might
tender river
shiro have you seen the diff
real sierra
fast pagoda
glad path
still needs tuning
fast pagoda
what did you use for the db or store
glad path
next up I gotta make a whole agent that runs on the side to manage memory writing
glad path
what did you use for the db or store
faiss
fast pagoda
damn right to mega rag
glad path
uses a really small qwen instruct model to summarize recent input into a query
queries
and adds into the existing context window integrations
fast pagoda
i feel like qwen 0.5 or something i would NOT trust to manage my context and anything larger has to be so slow
tender river
<a:NOPERS:907017346806317106>
scala also allows using methods as infix operators (a map b instead of a.map(b) though it gives a warning if it wasnt explicitly declared as an infix operator)
real sierra
scala also allows using methods as infix operators (`a map b` instead of `a.map(...
tokens
glad path
im going to be using a larger model for writing to the db since that will likely require something with reasoning capability
fast pagoda
man's got vram to spare
fast pagoda
im going to be using a larger model for writing to the db since that will likely...
there's some stuff like this https://github.com/tomaarsen/SpanMarkerNER with more purposefully put together models for writing , idk how much less compute heavy this would be than just using an llm like that though
not querying, writing
real sierra
wait
what about loops
if the same state occurs twice in a path
e.g. you move a piece and then move it back and the opponent does the same
then backprop will fail
tender river
tender river
rewrite rewrite rewrite
fast pagoda
transposition table will ruin me
keep history and check against
tender river
ye i sleep
real sierra
tender river
fast pagoda
terminate search if the same history repeats and give 0 score then go down other branches instead of ruining your life
that';s what mcts does i think
real sierra
terminate search if the same history repeats and give 0 score then go down other...
so i need to keep a list of all the nodes ive visited during backprop
tokens
fast pagoda
just the hashes
tender river
<a:Om:1140110887668158576>
(i did make progress but it was mostly build tooling-related, got sidetracked with scala and neuro stream a bit)
i also already have basic bindings that arent in any way idiomatic or usable
so yeah soon 
fast pagoda
so u track the hashes of each position in your path from parent to current position and check each new position to see if it's in the history already per path
real sierra
but the tokens
storing a list of hashes in a token-friendly manner is also non-trivial
i can probably stack allocate some giant array and just pray it never overflows
but i have to make it before every backprop
fast pagoda
the list of hashes wouldnt count towards the tokens would it??? it wouldnt be present until you are playing at which point who cares if the file gets massive
real sierra
and pass it in
real sierra
the list of hashes wouldnt count towards the tokens would it??? it wouldnt be pr...
i mean the code behind creating it, passing it around
i currently have uh
tender river
huge stdlib
python c
real sierra
...2 tokens free
fast pagoda
oh i thoguht you were implying having some sort of pre-computed list in there lmao
2 sounds good for a full hash evaluation function yep
glad path
why is this such an annoying typo to look at
glad path
the typo is fed up with itself
look at the end of a python function declaration
they all end with ):
do you see it
real sierra
C function declarations all end in bclose
fast pagoda
...2 tokens free
you would already have the hashes being handled for the tt anyways so all it would need to add is the quick lil loop for checking the hash (which is still way more than 2 tokens but)
real sierra
you would already have the hashes being handled for the tt anyways so all it wou...
no but
to tell if a loop has occurred
you need to keep a list of only the hashes you've encountered during this particular backprop
sage crag
phrr
real sierra
thats a new list for each backprop call
backprop is implemented atm as a recursive function
so i need the existing list and its length created prior to calling
and then passed in
minus 10 billion tokens
ok grok shrink my code
fast pagoda
lmao
amber fractal
My options aren't even bound to file type as much as if I want to send a link to github pages so we don't have to constantly update our saved files. PNG would be an embed on such a github page, GIF/WEBP would be on the other side of relying on refreshing GIF picker on updates.
sage crag
ok grok shrink my code
go go gadget code reducer
def bot():
return get_board().get_moves()[0]