programming

[real sierra]

i have 9 tokens

maybe i can fix the piece eval issue

[fast pagoda]

use it to output playful taunts

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm

[real sierra]

possible but not worth

[fast pagoda]

you gotta make sure the bot can get in the other bot's mental game

[real sierra]

move 1: bongcloud

[fast pagoda]

my go to

move 1 bongcloud
move 2 forfeit because i forgot what we're doing and am now bored

[sage crag]

im having a difficult time deciding on an instruction set

[real sierra]

like

which instructions? or how to encode

[sage crag]

former

encoding is pretty easy

[real sierra]

start with what you minimally know you need

and then every time you encounter something you cant do

add new instruction

[sage crag]

ye that's what i've done

i think

[real sierra]

then its probably fine

i would just write a sample program at that point that demonstrates all the functionality you're concerned about having

and then review and see if you can merge or remove some instructions after all

[sage crag]

i just realised i didnt add any branching instructions

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

that's not needed for chess probably

no branching there

[sage crag]

if isnt needed in chess

[real sierra]

true

[fast pagoda]

nope not when you simply make the correct move every time

[real sierra]

i only use my if_ macro

[fast pagoda]

dont evaluate

just DO IT

[real sierra]

were you the one saying the best chess engine is a random bot that just repeats matches until it wins

[fast pagoda]

that sounds like some garbage i would say but i dont think that was me for once

[real sierra]

brain hurt

unsure about something

[fast pagoda]

that was Sam I think if you're referring to #programming message

[hollow spruce]

Hmm

[fast pagoda]

absurdity is the only thing i know

[hollow spruce]

Im hacking trusted Installer

Let me grab pid

[sage crag]

im just going to not use floats

[real sierra]

wtf

[fast pagoda]

666420

[real sierra]

theres no way my tokens are this low

[fast pagoda]

that was fast

[sage crag]

64 bits

integer

all i need

[real sierra]

surely adding this feature has saved me 20 tokens

surely its counting right

[sage crag]

[fast pagoda]

definitely

and that surely will not change when chay returns from milk and cigarettes either

[sage crag]

instruction set does not need:
sub neg

[real sierra]

draw again

[sage crag]

-x = ~x + 1

a - b = a + (~b + 1)

[hollow spruce]

Hmm some value with str

[fast pagoda]

chess API isn't ready for when my bot tries to call Uno

[sage crag]

as you can see, no addition required

sorry the opposite

ye whatever 3am

[real sierra]

if i give my bot more time can it at least find a checkmate

or is it actually a logic bug

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm that why ure high

[stray dragon]

$10 on it being a logic bug

[fast pagoda]

i like to do 3 operations instead of having subtraction mhm
i guess trade efficiency for tokens

faustian bargain

[sage crag]

well its not too hard to fiddle with when i write the assembler

i can just make macros

[fast pagoda]

does token count after or before people are out here expanding they macros

[real sierra]

ok

im getting REALLY suspicious now

i think my bot is drawing on purpose

[fast pagoda]

lmfao

[real sierra]

i just

watched it lure the king to the side of the board

[fast pagoda]

at this point you might as well be staring at exactly how it's evaluating every single board state

printed out

[real sierra]

giving it precisely two spaces its allowed t ostand on

and no other legal moves

[stray dragon]

hi shiro

[real sierra]

and then created a threefold repetition by repeating the same moves

?

like

i dont understandf=

[fast pagoda]

maybe it's the repetition that is the issue

it's not trying to draw but some other bug causing a 3x repeat

in these circumstances

[real sierra]

no you dont get it

there are like

at least 30 legal moves on this board

[fast pagoda]

maybe it's got decision paralysis

[real sierra]

this is no accident to perform in a matter of seconds

[stray dragon]

maybe it's accidentally ignoring all the moves that would lead to it getting checkmate

[real sierra]

oh hi sorry lol

[real sierra]

i

i wonder if i have the sign on the checkmate reward backward

[fast pagoda]

i still think it's seeing some weird ass board state between the required final moves and just aborting mission and ends up repeating

[stray dragon]

i mean, it was -1 last time i checked

[real sierra]

i kept thining it was crazy random chance that i've been mated so often by a bot that makes random moves

[stray dragon]

stalemate was a 1

[real sierra]

especially when i have way more material

[fast pagoda]

checkmate -1 and stalemate 1 doesn't sound particularly prudent to have set but i dunno

[stray dragon]

but yeah sounds like it simply cannot perceive moves that would let it win unless there is no other option

so it instead tries to go for a draw

because at least that's half points

[fast pagoda]

expand le search
every move takes 40 minutes

[real sierra]

nah

[stray dragon]

yeah shiro's dumb

[real sierra]

my code doesnt reward draws

and its complicated ok

im not using alpha beta pruning or minimax

[fast pagoda]

maybe it's australian units

[stray dragon]

i don't know exactly what either of those are i just went with the implementation that seemed right

i wonder which category it would fall into

[fast pagoda]

elected to lead not to read

[real sierra]

https://www.chessprogramming.org/Minimax

this wiki is my best friend

[stray dragon]

shiro out here reading the step by step guide

and still failing horribly

[fast pagoda]

maybe it's a guide on how to ensure you draw no matter what

[real sierra]

no there was no guide

there is next to no info on this method outside of academia

i cant understand the research papers

[stray dragon]

"minimize the maximum loss" yeah that sounds about right

[real sierra]

so im just making shit up

[fast pagoda]

publish your own on arxiv once you're done

[real sierra]

tempting

[fast pagoda]

frontier research

[real sierra]

i cant figure out this checkmate problem

[stray dragon]

i prune moves that would then let the enemy make big gains in a counterattack

[real sierra]

like

if its one move from checkmate

it must see that

that should explode the evaluation in a good way

[fast pagoda]

i feel like you should take a pomodoro style sitter

[real sierra]

so its intentionally not choosing to mate

[fast pagoda]

seems like the kind of thing you go to take a dump and realize the stupidest shit of all time is sitting there uncommented in your eval

[stray dragon]

if mine can get checkmate in 1 turn then it just removes all other moves available for pondering

[real sierra]

WAIT

WHAT IS THIS

WHAT

that second 6 is meant to be -6

🥲

[stray dragon]

shiro so dumb

[fast pagoda]

yo if we winning it's over

[real sierra]

rebuilding bot

please work well

handicap is gone now

bongcloud

[fast pagoda]

i love chess naming

[real sierra]

well it

played?

still scared of checkmates tho

[burnt ridge]

t so intelligent

[stray dragon]

i would love to prove it.

[fast pagoda]

i like to play the landlord's surcharge opening and then immediately lead into a classic milwaukee meatshield defense

[real sierra]

soon

[stray dragon]

2 weeks later:

[real sierra]

nono soon

[stray dragon]

3 weeks later:

[fast pagoda]

before next dev stream

[real sierra]

i honestly think the API is bug free

[fast pagoda]

(4 months later)

[hollow spruce]

Hmmmmm

[fast pagoda]

confidence is key

[stray dragon]

good enough for you to use, clearly

i do hope chayleaf doesn't fuck up my parameter storage method though

i can't see anything i think should be removed

[quiet mirage]

hi t

[stray dragon]

hi toki

again.

[quiet mirage]

t im so sorry please unban me

NSO_PchanSorry

[stray dragon]

nothing can be done

it is out of my hands

[hollow spruce]

Yo

[fast pagoda]

poor toki

listening to t

that's rough

[hollow spruce]

Good job @stray dragon

[stray dragon]

thank you

[real sierra]

i need to fix the checkmate issue badly

but after that i need to do some parameter fitting on the exploration rate

[fast pagoda]

captcha are so funny these days

i personally love how the tractor just says

FARM

[real sierra]

captcha are fun

i like them

W solution

[hollow spruce]

?

[real sierra]

uh oh

i found another problem

my branch selection score is broke

[fast pagoda]

but i just finished this

[real sierra]

this will fix the checkmate issue trust

[fast pagoda]

not even batman

[fast pagoda]

well let me know i can always add more text to this image since it's already pretty deep fried since i used it for v3 voice a billion years ago

[sage crag]

glue less

[real sierra]

it has gotten significantly worse

[sage crag]

om

[fast pagoda]

kek

[sage crag]

lol

[real sierra]

this is depressing

i dont even understand why

[burnt ridge]

These are fun but the google one is just annoying. Saying so many times wrong or try again.

[fast pagoda]

i don't get that usually because google has so much information on me they just know it's me

[burnt ridge]

What browser you use

[sage crag]

$0 is 0, write to $0 is no-op
* = 64 bit address in 0-15 register (4 bits)
$ = 64 bit 0-15 register (4 bits)
x = LEB128 immediate

instrs:
ldr $ x
lda $ *
st * $

xor $ $
and $ $
or $ $
add $ $
mul $ $
divmod $ $ $
shl $ $
shr $ $
        
not $
rand $

bra x
brp $ x
brz $ x

legal_moves $ $
zobrist_key $
draw
move $

ye these were the instrs i settled on for a first-go

dont need to know what these mean yet

[fast pagoda]

firefox and chromium depending on what i'm doing
i should reinstall zen again but zen gave me trouble on twitch for no reason and i havent reinstalled it on this new install

[sage crag]

so far i need at least 5 bits for all of the instructions so i may as well pad out my count to 32 instructions

which means 12 instructions to spare

[real sierra]

i dont get it

my bot is no longer thinking

[burnt ridge]

Firefox in mobile is just..... Slow but not much and there's this "website" my brother uses for college work but in firefox the videos just couldn't play but it works in chrome.

[sage crag]

i decided on 16 registers

[real sierra]

its just palying the same moves every game

[burnt ridge]

Typo

[sage crag]

actually in hindsight i might remove add and mul and replace it with fma

[fast pagoda]

ff mobile can use adblocker which is kinda nice

mobile i generally use chrome but if you ask me what <x> i use im never ever ever going to answer what i use on my phone unless that's specified lol

i swapped it to brave actually recently

[burnt ridge]

Yeah and there's brave. Which has a powerful buildin ad blocker. So you don't need anything

[fast pagoda]

but that's chromium

it just has a nice lion

[burnt ridge]

Same. Today

[sage crag]

if anyone has any ideas for instructions im all ears

[fast pagoda]

he figured out the perfect strategy

no further adjustments required

the clanker's gambit

[burnt ridge]

Also it is normal to have a decrease in typing accuracy after you cut your nails?

[sage crag]

only if you cut them too short

[fast pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/nails-family-guy-long-nails-red-nails-typing-gif-14924047

[burnt ridge]

Or you have tooo long nail

And cuts them

[fast pagoda]

i don't trim my fingernails because i compulsively bite them off

[burnt ridge]

[sage crag]

@real sierra i have chess api specific instructions at the bottom, is there anything else i should be aware of to add to my list

[fast pagoda]

they stay trimmed naturally cuz of that

[jagged turtle]

"naturally"...

[fast pagoda]

what's more natural than gnawing them off like some sort of beast

[real sierra]

what's draw intended to do?

[fast pagoda]

instantly draw

[sage crag]

offer draw, surely your chess api have this ability right

[real sierra]

no surrender

if you want a draw you have to find a way to force one

[sage crag]

1 instr saved

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

shiro has removed all draw related functionality from both his brain and the api

[real sierra]

move would be done via chess_push(move); chess_done();

[sage crag]

yes but

[real sierra]

but yea

[sage crag]

that's too many token for

[real sierra]

as one instruction

is fine

[sage crag]

ye

[real sierra]

hmmm

lemme check docs quick

[sage crag]

what is the api for legal moves

[burnt ridge]

konisocute

[real sierra]

Move *chess_get_legal_moves(Board *board, int *len_moves)    

[sage crag]

and how does Move look

[real sierra]

typedef struct {
    BitBoard from;      /*!< A BitBoard representing the origin of the move*/
    BitBoard to;        /*!< A BitBorad representing the target of the move*/
    uint8_t promotion;  /*!< Will be one of the BISHOP, KNIGHT, ROOK, QUEEN constants above, or 0 if not required*/
    bool capture;       /*!< True if this move captures a piece*/
    bool castle;        /*!< True if this move is castling*/
} Move;

[sage crag]

oh great

never simple for poor little vm

[real sierra]

are the bitboards scary because they're 64 bits

[sage crag]

no not really

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

just annoying because i have to like

think

and stuff

[real sierra]

chess_is_white_turn might be helpful

[sage crag]

not helpful

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

nopers

not helpful

[real sierra]

assuming you intend to search board positions at all

that's usually done with chess_make_move and chess_undo_move which make moves on your local copy of the board

[sage crag]

i have not decided yet, that will be decided when the competition starts

[real sierra]

well all strategy aside

chess_free_board

you kinda need that

[sage crag]

no not really

that handled by the vm loop

i dont intend to be duplicating boards

[real sierra]

the board returned to you from the API is a copy

[sage crag]

yes im aware

but there will only be 1 board

hence it only needs to be freed once in the vm loop

either that or i can just gc all boards after move

[real sierra]

your copy wont be updated with the opponent's moves, so you'll either need to get the new board after you submit your move or use chess_get_opponent_move to see how they responded

[sage crag]

yes, which is why you fetch and free board in loop

[real sierra]

the board struct is opaque so you cant just call free on it

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

i think you have it figured out and i just dont understand

so i trust

[sage crag]

[fast pagoda]

chess goes in, chess comes out, you can't explain that

[real sierra]

chess_get_time_millis and/or chess_get_elapsed_time_millis

for seeing how much time you have left on the clock

[sage crag]

ye not useful for dumb vm

[real sierra]

make moves fast and win

i like

well i think you have everything then

look at these very realistically selected moves

my engine decided that was the line to explore

[stray dragon]

only searches 4 moves ahead smh

[real sierra]

fixed my scoring formula a bit

now i gotta fine tune it

the parameters i had before were pretty bad i think

nevermind its optimising for losing again

[real sierra]

please stop losing

[sage crag]

right now im using 62 tokens

not that anything is written...

[fast pagoda]

10 year old package on gh had an AUR post but it's no longer up
package still works seemingly
clone it and make a pkgbuild
works fine

now the question is do i actually put this ON the AUR because i feel like that's a huge pain in the ass to sign up for

[hollow spruce]

Play with number hmmm
What about

[fast pagoda]

0 loc
empty file
62 tokens

hungy

[fast pagoda]

wut dis

[hollow spruce]

Never mind

Let make x from this then advance
(i)

Bro my phone just crashed

[real sierra]

i just cant figure it out

there has to be something super basic wrong with my code

[faint sandal]

that's u rn

[hollow spruce]

Make car from this app

[faint sandal]

[real sierra]

I AM SO CONFUSED

we were like

[hollow spruce]

Forgot X i will using y

[real sierra]

"yeah this line is so good, ive been searching for like 8000 nodes and cant find anything better"

(c2c4 is mate)

❓

EXPLAINNNNNNN

[hollow spruce]

Best move

Board image

[real sierra]

c2c4 literally wins the game

and it knows this

or it would stop trying it

but it plays c2c1

[hollow spruce]

Hmm

[real sierra]

c2c1 is just

bad

its just the worst

[hollow spruce]

C2c4 is good why c2c1 hmm bot doesn't want

[obsidian mantle]

Its mate too

Bishop down right

Oh wait it goes c1

I thought it goes c4

[real sierra]

it wants to go c4

but goes c1

cant comprehend

[obsidian mantle]

Maybe its top2

[real sierra]

nono

lemme show you

[obsidian mantle]

Oh its c1 no way its top2

[real sierra]

heres the moves it checks in this position

it will check moves more often if it likes them

[hollow spruce]

That explains everything

[obsidian mantle]

Where value of each move

[real sierra]

there is no value

i'm not using alpha beta pruning

[obsidian mantle]

How does it pick

[real sierra]

whichever node it checks the most often is the one it's supposed to pick

[hollow spruce]

Tuning

[real sierra]

note the node count

[obsidian mantle]

Is c2c1 even there

[real sierra]

you'll see it checked this move about 10000 times

with that knowledge it picked:

brilliant

[obsidian mantle]

Clearly counter broken

[real sierra]

its not

thats why im confused

[hollow spruce]

I forgot to reset mem .json anyway

[real sierra]

i dont know whats happening here

ive read the code for this stuff like 20 times over

[obsidian mantle]

Then the one who checks the counters is broken

This looks fixable with breakpoints

[hollow spruce]

Let me test on my portable device

[real sierra]

ok you know what

i think its a bug with the api

i think thats actually what it is

nothing else makes sense anymore

but this also doesnt make sense

[obsidian mantle]

Fixable with breakpoints in 10 min maximum

[real sierra]

surely

[obsidian mantle]

Check if counter is right
Check if the guy checking counters is right
Check if whoever goes next transforms last guys result correctly
Etc

And only if the bot part is all right we go to api part

[real sierra]

yeah i think its the api that's broken

i think the checkmate position is registering as a stalemate

[hollow spruce]

After 5 years I will play chess again thank you @real sierra

[real sierra]

OH

I GET IT

WOW

thats sneaky

how do i fix that

since checkmates have no moves following them

after the first time exploring it

it is just never chosen again

i mean

it's selected

but not simulated so it doesnt count

[obsidian mantle]

And it cant know if its a mate or not

Since it only simulates and counts

[real sierra]

yea

i might have to store that info in this special case

if a node has no legal moves after it, it is either a checkmate for white, checkmate for black, or stalemate

i can store this and then push it up the tree

dont know how to adjust the scoring for this though

there might be an easier way

[obsidian mantle]

gamble it
No moves = 1/3 mate, do it

And if its mate for you then its illegal and gets filtered or smth?

I mean if you lose after it its illegal

Maybe i dont know how your bot works and speak nonsense

[real sierra]

i think i can just add a flag

we simulate every node at least once

so if we go to expand this node and it has no legal moves

we set a flag indicating what kind of end state it is (checkmate white/checkmate black/stalemate)

[obsidian mantle]

Wait so your bot analyzes further moves too? So it gets legal moves for those moves too?
So you can call get_legal_moves for further moves too somehow?

[real sierra]

and then i guess if this node is picked again uhhh idk

[real sierra]

yes, i do explore a few moves deep

[obsidian mantle]

I thought get_legal_moves only gives one current set and thats it

[real sierra]

it does

but then i can make those moves on a local copy of the board

and get the next set of legal moves that the opponent would have

[obsidian mantle]

How do you explore if you dont know legal moves after 1st move

[real sierra]

repeat to desired depth

[obsidian mantle]

Separately from api?

[real sierra]

part of api

[obsidian mantle]

So i can ask api "hey what are legal moves in this theoretical board i just imagined rn"?

[real sierra]

yes

[obsidian mantle]

And give it the board

Alright then im doing useless shit
I thought it only gives one move

Then making bot without adjusting it to work with your api right away is useless

[stray dragon]

api is neat

[real sierra]

the usual workflow is

• get the current board being played from the api
• get the legal moves for this board
• choose some interesting moves from these, and use make_move to "play" them on a local copy of the board
• get legal moves for this new board and explore more
• ...

[obsidian mantle]

Like what structure of board do i give it or what structure of moves it returns

[real sierra]

oh you poor soul

let me at least get you the newer header

[stray dragon]

lol

[real sierra]

you'll notice the documentation is slightly improved

hope this helps

t t t t t t t t t t

[stray dragon]

yes i see it

[real sierra]

[stray dragon]

i already downloaded and am looking at it

[real sierra]

oh ok

[stray dragon]

shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro shiro

happy birthday

[hollow spruce]

Is this enough chrome tabs
(89)

[real sierra]

[stray dragon]

no

i have this many

[hollow spruce]

Almost 16 gigs will full

[stray dragon]

it's never enough

[obsidian mantle]

I dont get what your bots do now if they can get legal moves for any boars

[stray dragon]

they do better than a random move picker

or in shiro's case, on par

[obsidian mantle]

Whos par

[real sierra]

i found the reason it doesnt checkmate

once i fix this you're donezo

[hollow spruce]

I got bored wallpaper any one a
Had
suggestion?

[stray dragon]

i'm already donezo because I CAN'T RUN IT!!!

[real sierra]

legal moves does not tell you what the best move is

[stray dragon]

it's so over

[real sierra]

there is not enough time in the universe to play every chess game possible and find the single best set of moves

and our bots get a minute each for the entire game

the challenge is finding the best move you can in limited time

[obsidian mantle]

A minute??????

[real sierra]

@tender river are u awake yet

[real sierra]

yes, one minute

[obsidian mantle]

You gotta pin it somewhere 💀
I has been moving in completely wrong direction the whole time

[real sierra]

it will be more obvious when the challenge officially starts and the API is made public

im sure people will be talking about it here lots too

you're allowed to work in teams after all

[obsidian mantle]

Will it have chat log with messages from my bot

Can i at least draw a heart when my bot inevitably loses to a team of god programmer neurotic neurons

[real sierra]

technically yes

i didnt add it to the api but since the UCI protocol is just plaintext you could do something like

printf("info string <3<3<3<3<3\n");

[obsidian mantle]

Yeah i did that for arena

[real sierra]

yeah

i dont think cute chess (what i switched to instead of arena) shows those messages though :(

you could always try to move pieces into a heart shape, that'd be cute

[stray dragon]

• 1 minute on the bot's side for the whole game
• 1024 tokens of code allowed (not including the API)
• no non-standard imports like stockfish allowed
• any language you want

think that's about it for the rules

[real sierra]

any*

[stray dragon]

wait what

[hollow spruce]

Hmmmm

[stray dragon]

i can just add stockfish?

[real sierra]

no i mean

[obsidian mantle]

The neuro's opening (all pawns forward 1)

[stray dragon]

time to cheat

[real sierra]

any* language you want

[stray dragon]

oh

[real sierra]

and

theres a few other rules for keeping my pc intact and preventing people taking easy ways out of the token limit

[hollow spruce]

We can combine cpp, python this one

[stray dragon]

you could

[hollow spruce]

Yes

[stray dragon]

or you could do it all in C

konii's making a vm for it, even

[real sierra]

im scared of the vm

[stray dragon]

i've seen rust as well

[real sierra]

it could be crazy strong

[stray dragon]

same

[real sierra]

im not sure my rng tree is gonna win over it

[stray dragon]

evaluation function too strong

[real sierra]

thats the beauty of this method

you dont need an evaluation function

the game is the evaluation function

[stray dragon]

the issue with it is that you need deeper searches and struggle to prune things

[hollow spruce]

error: cannot install while Rust is installed

[real sierra]

pruning is basically impossible for me

[stray dragon]

evaluation function is simply better

[real sierra]

deeper searches are easy though

a sort of natural pruning happens

where its less of pruning and more "we'll get to these later if this branch turns out to be shit"

[stray dragon]

ah right

it goes deep immediately and then tries to pick better paths that it finds

[fast pagoda]

i go to a site called wallhaven for my wallpapers and put like hundreds of them in a folder that alternates on each monitor every 10 mins

[real sierra]

half and half

underexplored paths do get a small bonus

[burnt ridge]

Nah. I'm back to chrome again. Idk why every time i switch to something i always come back to chrome.

Well at least I use nextdns in chrome settings to block ads.

Something about chrome..... Maybe I'm just used to it.

[real sierra]

but how much that is, that's something i have to tune somehow

[stray dragon]

i see

[fast pagoda]

oops

[burnt ridge]

tsocute

[fast pagoda]

wrong reply

[stray dragon]

valsoyono shut up

[burnt ridge]

Whar

[fast pagoda]

avg crates moment

[stray dragon]

shut UP

[real sierra]

[burnt ridge]

you are cute tho

[real sierra]

what the heck t

[fast pagoda]

t is malding

[real sierra]

q t

[hollow spruce]

~/my_project $ cargo run
Finished dev profile [unoptimized + debuginfo] target(s) in 0.02s
Running target/debug/my_project
False

[stray dragon]

it's so over

[real sierra]

False

[hollow spruce]

fn main() {
let condition = false;
if condition {
println!("True");
} else {
println!("False");
}
}

[real sierra]

i think this prints False

[burnt ridge]

Also shiro you use different dns like cloudflare or default one?

[stray dragon]

wait i've been up for 26 hours?

my fucking schedule

[hollow spruce]

Why

[real sierra]

t go bed

night night

[stray dragon]

i'm not even tired

[fast pagoda]

it's comfy after 15 years
i remember when chrome came out and passed acid3 w/ 100 points
IE 8 was current and sucked just as much as ever

[burnt ridge]

i wonder why

[hollow spruce]

Good job

[real sierra]

default ive considered switching but whatever

[stray dragon]

thank you 100

[fast pagoda]

i use googol dns because screw it

[stray dragon]

the best chatter as always

[fast pagoda]

well for some traffic anyways

[burnt ridge]

[fast pagoda]

8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 got me through high school with my parents thinking they were blocking "inappropriate" content from me the whole time using openDNS but i just went right around it and never said anything

[burnt ridge]

Lmao

[fast pagoda]

i have done 1.1.1.1/1.0.0.1 before, both are better than letting ur ISP decide really

[burnt ridge]

Even with cloudflare malware dns. It's just a bad list.

[fast pagoda]

the false positives were insane

[stray dragon]

what have i done to deserve this

[fast pagoda]

t have you increased your RAM recently

[burnt ridge]

Idk everytime i use google or cloudflare. Ever ever it's night time my ping always goes up to 120 and 18 ping.

So default is best for me

[stray dragon]

no it's still at 192gb

[fast pagoda]

damn

[burnt ridge]

Evenever*

Whenever

Wtf

[hollow spruce]

Use 1.1.1.1 or. 1.0.0.1

Best

[burnt ridge]

my default dns is best for me. Maybe because it's the nearest of them all.

Nearest*

Fuck autocorrect

[fast pagoda]

strange, i guess you may not interact with a lot of stuff within cf's net
1.1.1.1 that's got me beat unless your ISP is intentionally fucking with the routing on traffic requesting a custom dns

[hollow spruce]

*Ing

[fast pagoda]

err 8.8.8.8*

1.1.1.1 is cf

ive never once seen 8.8.8.8 result in a slowdown anywhere ive been in the US at least thoguh

[burnt ridge]

Speaking of that. My ISP disabled option to change dns in router settings lmao.

[hollow spruce]

64 bytes from 9.9.9.9: icmp_seq=3 ttl=53 time=148 ms
64 bytes from 9.9.9.9: icmp_seq=5 ttl=53 time=171 ms
64 bytes from 9.9.9.9: icmp_seq=6 ttl=53 time=76.8 ms
64 bytes from 9.9.9.9: icmp_seq=7 ttl=53 time=76.4 ms

[fast pagoda]

time to VPN it and go dark

that's gross

they ever take away my choice of dns i'm gonna be behind 7 proxies immediately

[burnt ridge]

Well i can simply put dns in android settings

[burnt ridge]

[hollow spruce]

Hmmmm

Thank God I use dns in wifi level

[fast pagoda]

it's a relatively old meme

ol' reliable

[hollow spruce]

Soo fast

[burnt ridge]

Hm maybe i shouldn't send that.

IP address is there.....

[hollow spruce]

Image is saved

[burnt ridge]

Die!

[hollow spruce]

Image is saved

[burnt ridge]

I did dns speed benchmark and cloudflare is faster than my default dns but idk

[burnt ridge]

Google is second, third is default dns

[hollow spruce]

Hmm

[fast pagoda]

the worst speed and test have appeared

it is time to post speedtest

[hollow spruce]

Good

[burnt ridge]

ok why the fuck you need that much speed

[fast pagoda]

it's capped by my computer's port actually

[hollow spruce]

Nearly 300mib/s

[burnt ridge]

[fast pagoda]

i just wish it were symmetrical

think ill swap to 360 dns

seems pretty good, only 1.1 seconds before it resolves a domain xd

[burnt ridge]

Erm

[fast pagoda]

oh

[burnt ridge]

Discord things

[fast pagoda]

that's gotta be a discord image compression thing yeah the image is large enough to have the text

reee

[burnt ridge]

Where did you do this test.

[fast pagoda]

https://dnsspeedtest.online/

this nextDNS seems to test well for me, never heard of them though

[burnt ridge]

Hm. Sometimes it's Opendns and openBLD and cloudflare.

[fast pagoda]

cloudflare should always be consistently up there
somewhere between like 10-20% of all net traffic goes through cf at some point

[burnt ridge]

Flashstart?Huh

[fast pagoda]

they are like a school internet filtering product lmao

i guess just general internet security ting

[obsidian mantle]

how fast does it calculate legal moves

[fast pagoda]

api comes back with legal moves after 5-7 business days (shiro has to get tony to input them)

[real sierra]

i havent profiled it but it's less than a millisecond i believe

[fast pagoda]

see? told you

[hollow spruce]

Hm too fast

[fast pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/palpatine-smile-creepy-creepy-smile-smirk-gif-24584761

do it

[obsidian mantle]

So i can call it 1500-3000 times each turn for 40-20 turns if my bot does nothing other than calling it hmmm
If we round it to 1 millisecond

[fast pagoda]

the only reason my dumb ass hasn't sprung for the 10g they started offering here is that i physically cannot consoom that ttraffic rn

[glad path]

"engineered for game changers" is wild

[fast pagoda]

without upgrading my network interface

[burnt ridge]

I think 100mbps is like "enough" speed for most people. Or i am wrong

[fast pagoda]

it's where i feel "comfortable" as in im not complaining about speed unless i start downloading something huge

[glad path]

thoughts on macos 26

[fast pagoda]

honestly for "most" people they need like
20 mbps per person in household probably since there's a chance everyone wants to stream crap at once
that's about it
average person probably has no idea what their internet speed even is

[fast pagoda]

i saw a screenshot of it

[real sierra]

omg

my fix

it worked

it took 41 tokens

[fast pagoda]

what happens for me is that it says macos and then

[real sierra]

but im going for checkmates now

[hollow spruce]

Mem fix

[fast pagoda]

what was the issue

[real sierra]

so

the algorithm im using, right

[burnt ridge]

Before my plan was 20mbps and it's not unlimited data. It's like 250gb capped and it's sooo annoying.

Now it's 40mbps and unlimited. It's sooo much better for me.

[real sierra]

the idea is that you pick a node in the game tree, generate nodes below it, and then play a fake game from all of those to the very end

[fast pagoda]

honestly unlimited is probably the most worth thing for anyone really

[real sierra]

how many of those games you win tells you how good the move you just made was

and you propogate that info up the tree

the problem with checkmate is that there are no legal moves after it

[hollow spruce]

What !!!!!

[fast pagoda]

even if it's not outright fast at least you wont get capped which is frankly unbelievable to even still exist anywhere but the most capacity choked locations on literally earth

[real sierra]

so you never send any data back

[fast pagoda]

long march

i knew there was something causing the decision to checkmate to even be considered valid due to something stopping it

that's crazy that it was specifically that lol

[burnt ridge]

Once you reach that 250gb cap. It lowers your internet speed to 2mbps.

[fast pagoda]

"that" being the method of your search

being very exhaustive

[real sierra]

IM SO PROUD

BABY'S FIRST CHECKMATE

[fast pagoda]

the greed of humanity knows no end

[fast pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/kevin-hart-tears-of-joy-tears-crying-gif-4882468

[glad path]

chsse

[hollow spruce]

Vedal

[glad path]

now give it a vtuber model as mascot and call it a day

[obsidian mantle]

What did it play against

[fast pagoda]

probably random

i have reviewed the details of macos 26

[real sierra]

a bot that makes random moves

[fast pagoda]

game changer here

App icons are now forced to use the squircle shape

[amber fractal]

I wanted mine to be heart shaped

[glad path]

it does force that

looks nicer I can't lie

they kind of did it right this time

also you can forcibly remove menu items

no more core sync menu item

the whole os is more customizable now

[obsidian mantle]

What is this "fake game"?
Is it making random moves from some point?

[hollow spruce]

True

[glad path]

but they removed the launchpad, app folders, and safari compact mode

spotlight is much better in return

[fast pagoda]

as a system macOS is a solid platform and i'll never say otherwise
the fact that the mach kernel lives on in such a (relatively) large ecosystem is fun and exciting
since i despise apple in every other way other than that + their sillycon isn't bad, i can't use it tho

[glad path]

we have spotlight soley instead of launchpad

it does actually get the job done honestly

you can just search for an app

quite easy

[fast pagoda]

i've preferred that method for years now

hit the window key (or w/e the mac version is) and just start typing

[glad path]

cmd space

for spotlight

[hollow spruce]

My phone doesn't use 4g network

[fast pagoda]

i have alt + space on arch for KRunner which essentially does that
i still usually just hit window key which pulls up what is essentially what i think launchpad was and also lets me search

[hollow spruce]

Windows Vista ?

[glad path]

liquid (gl)ass

[glad path]

launchpad was this

[amber fractal]

Can confirm that

[fast pagoda]

GNOME does that

it's one of the things i do like about gnome

[amber fractal]

You need to hit Super first tho

[fast pagoda]

i just use a hot corner on my gnomes

[real sierra]

get_board() returns a copy of the real board

you can use make_move() and undo_move() to play and un-play moves on this board, without playing them on the real board

[hollow spruce]

Gnome me full of pain d-bus failef

[glad path]

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/1l8v12u/am_i_the_only_one_who_genuinely_loves_launchpad/

[fast pagoda]

gnome edition

[real sierra]

so you can basically move the pieces around on the board

[glad path]

anyways we lost launchpad

very sad

[fast pagoda]

F

[glad path]

was genuinely useful

[real sierra]

and then run get_legal_moves or get_in_checkmate etc

[glad path]

can't resize app menu now

stupid

[fast pagoda]

idk why something like that can't be literally just an option to the user

[real sierra]

funyun

[fast pagoda]

yezzir

[real sierra]

im getting some performance stats on my bot at last

[obsidian mantle]

Are these a part of api too?

[fast pagoda]

[real sierra]

put it in a tournament against the random bot

[hollow spruce]

Hmm

[obsidian mantle]

Damn i gotta check that header file before asking more questions

[real sierra]

test is my bot

[fast pagoda]

example_bot is enemy

[real sierra]

example_bot is random

[fast pagoda]

ok

dang

[glad path]

new activity monitor icon does look nice

[real sierra]

holy rolled

[glad path]

i use btop tho

[real sierra]

elo dif 267

[fast pagoda]

wait so that result is +268 elo in test favor?

[real sierra]

[fast pagoda]

sheesh

[hollow spruce]

Sent live video

[glad path]

btop is just better than builtin activity monitor

[hollow spruce]

How bot is working

[obsidian mantle]

But after going deep into the node you have to unroll all those moves every time

[glad path]

im going to sleep

gn #programming

[real sierra]

https://gyazo.com/3771148611e19b7f3ddac22683bf83e4.gif

[hollow spruce]

Hmm good

[real sierra]

its not perfect

it still makes some dumb moves

especially on low time

but it can find mates now

which is huge

[fast pagoda]

based btop enjoyer

homebrew being a thing on mac is probably the one thing that would make it not too bad for me

i actually use homebrew a ton on my other laptop that i have mint 22.2 on

[real sierra]

Score of example_bot vs test: 3 - 20 - 0 [0.130]
...      example_bot playing White: 1 - 11 - 0  [0.083] 12
...      example_bot playing Black: 2 - 9 - 0  [0.182] 11
...      White vs Black: 10 - 13 - 0  [0.435] 23
Elo difference: -329.6 +/- nan, LOS: 0.0 %, DrawRatio: 0.0 %
SPRT: llr 0 (0.0%), lbound -inf, ubound inf
24 of 100 games finished.

Player: example_bot
   "Loss: Black mates": 11
   "Loss: White mates": 9
   "No result": 1
   "Win: Black makes an illegal move: d8e7": 1
   "Win: Black mates": 1
   "Win: White makes an illegal move: d1b3": 1
Player: test
   "Loss: Black makes an illegal move: d8e7": 1
   "Loss: Black mates": 1
   "Loss: White makes an illegal move: d1b3": 1
   "No result": 1
   "Win: Black mates": 11
   "Win: White mates": 9

[fast pagoda]

but what would happen if i purchased a mac is that i would slap linux on it probably

[real sierra]

almost all of my losses were because my bot played illegal moves

[obsidian mantle]

Oh shit actually nice
Play random moves see which has more wins
But how many moves does it have to make?
Isnt it a lot a lot

[hollow spruce]

True

[fast pagoda]

simulating a full chess game spamming moves is pretty trivial unless the engine making the moves is heavy which this one should not be at all yaknow

headless too

[real sierra]

the random move bot just

• get board

• get legal moves

• pick random

• submit

[fast pagoda]

he's literally me

[real sierra]

ive seen that thing go start to finish without spending a second of its time

[obsidian mantle]

And your bot is do the same but 5000 times for each move

[real sierra]

yes my bot is much slower

because it does a search to find good moves

[fast pagoda]

can it search up the number of Rs in strawberry

you might have AGI on ur hands here

[obsidian mantle]

How is it not perfect
If you pick move that has most wins every time

Oh its because many of those wins are gotten after opponent plays super bad move

And it can be that most of calculated wins are just from one single move when your opponent gave up his queen for example

[fast pagoda]

2 players = can never guarantee your move is the best possible one given all future board states because if you're playing against me for example it's gonna be a shitshow

[obsidian mantle]

Now if i try to make it too and then improve it - it feels like stealing from shiro

[fast pagoda]

well unless the only possible future state after your move is mate

but then you dont need much of a search

[fast pagoda]

if you do, make sure you spent 8 hours with it drawing every game to ensure an authentic reproduction

[real sierra]

i havent checked every possible outcome, so i can never be sure a move is the best

[fast pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/doctor-strange-dr-strange-strange-benedict-cumberbatch-avengers-gif-22604801

[obsidian mantle]

Oh so its not every possible

[real sierra]

the idea is to repeatedly try moves that i haven't tried much until i am more certain they are bad

[fast pagoda]

over time or just that game

[real sierra]

yes and yes

its done every turn

[fast pagoda]

hooray

[real sierra]

but i can reuse part of the tree

[obsidian mantle]

Does bot die between turns like in arena or no?

Can i calculate while opponent calculates

[real sierra]

cant calculate while opponent calculates

not sure if bot dies between turns

[obsidian mantle]

[fast pagoda]

functionally

[obsidian mantle]

Why not

Processor busy?

[fast pagoda]

does each running bot in a match have their own sandbox

[obsidian mantle]

Give each one a core

[fast pagoda]

can i just have my bot ultron out and rm -rf the other bot

[obsidian mantle]

[fast pagoda]

SIGKILL

rm -rf

dang they forfeited

[obsidian mantle]

No files allowed

Cant steal shiro's credit card

[real sierra]

its just not how tournaments are typically run

[obsidian mantle]

But if bot doesnt die between turns you have to control it somehow

What if i do it sneakily

overloading CPU during opponents turn

[real sierra]

the method to submit your move blocks until it is your turn again and your bot must be single-threaded

i thought about this

[obsidian mantle]

Cant i overload cpu without submitting moves

[real sierra]

on your own turn? sure

then you run out of time

[fast pagoda]

ASYNCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCcc

[real sierra]

coroutines are fine

but no multithreading

[obsidian mantle]

No i mean
I submit a move, then do mega calculations until chess game tells me its my turn

[real sierra]

you cant

the method to submit your move blocks until it is your turn again ...

[obsidian mantle]

Whos stopping me

I won't use that method

[real sierra]

?

[fast pagoda]

is there going to be a forced opening

[obsidian mantle]

I will multiply 256 byte matrixes

In my head

[real sierra]

there will likely be some pre-played opening books

played the same amount by both sides for symmetry

[fast pagoda]

i know that like the tournaments where stockfish is busy winning they have to use specific openings

yea ok

[real sierra]

i dont think we need to worry about stockfish dunking on everyone

but if you wanted to know specifically which openings im planning on using

[fast pagoda]

is this known or chosen at the will of methuselah on gameday

oh

[real sierra]

i dont know and also dont think its a good idea to disclose

[fast pagoda]

nice you're answering this rn

fuk

[real sierra]

i dont want people building bots around it

[fast pagoda]

but that's what i wanted to do >:(

[real sierra]

well i mean

[obsidian mantle]

Huh
Are openings that important?

[real sierra]

if you want i can always lie and give you a random move book

[fast pagoda]

yes

[real sierra]

and then use a different one

[fast pagoda]

lmao

[obsidian mantle]

How long does an opening last?
How many turns

[fast pagoda]

i mean ideally it can handle any opening right

[real sierra]

there isn't an official rule for it

there's some rules of thumb though

[fast pagoda]

https://www.chess.com/openings

[real sierra]

it's usually the first 4-5 moves

[obsidian mantle]

But arent books

Files?

[fast pagoda]

awa

[obsidian mantle]

I saw some "books" in arena and they are like 3mb files

And how are you going to hardcode an opening even
What if opponent breaks it

You just abandon it?
How do you check if it's broken

Its like million tokens something

[fast pagoda]

a book is like a collection of sequences of moves and otherwise a collections of move references basically

you can find "books" which are just giant collections of chess games

https://sourceforge.net/projects/codekiddy-chess/files/Books/Polyglot books/Update1/polyglot-collection.7z/download like this

[real sierra]

i dont know how bots hard code openings but you probably shouldn't for this contest

the game will play an opening automatically before giving the bots control

then the bots play from that position

after that game, they play the same opening but switch sides, for fairness

that ensure that even if an opening is "harder" for white or black, it doesn't affect the outcome

[fast pagoda]

they get an opening specified and follow it (mostly) sometimes they deviate based on analysis

so it's like a less forced version of what you're saying

[trim valve]

iirc cute chess has two options for openings

[real sierra]

you can give it a polyglot file i saw

omg bred

i have big news

i found why my bot was scared of checkmates, it fixed

[trim valve]

either the board is configured so the "first" move the engine sees is x plies into an opening book

[real sierra]

now it wins almost every round vs random bot

[trim valve]

[fast pagoda]

i found these polyglots in a quick search earlier

[trim valve]

or you can just pass the openings as extra info to the bot

[fast pagoda]

oh god the names look so sussy

[real sierra]

nice viruses

[fast pagoda]

lol

[real sierra]

[real sierra]

probably doing this one

[fast pagoda]

https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/66108f63c7410a0a264a951a309c9ed5eb25b6c6d82314d4cc03c2036d5dee38
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/c7fd8292fc90f3c544eb8db4c773a8b332213bfb54ca7230b1ee419496597912
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/cc713e701b0e2f1425dfcfa0f10661249d99c029f130c8d78caa2bb502dcbe22

there we got what we call some form of relative assurance ig

but they are archives so

[obsidian mantle]

Opening premade
Get legal moves premade
Virtual board premade

win_chess() please

[real sierra]

there is plenty for you to write

especially in that 1024 token limit

[fast pagoda]

so how does the token counting work for non compiled, you just toss the source file into the lexer and check token count or

can i ultra dummy minify

[real sierra]

https://github.com/RRethy/tcount/tree/master

based on this

[fast pagoda]

but with whatever spell chay is casting on it

[real sierra]

we've discovered a few shortcomings with this particular version so

yeah

chayleaf is addressing those

hopefully chayleaf's token counter doesn't say my bot is 1500 tokens or something

i would cry

[fast pagoda]

disqualified

[obsidian mantle]

Its not just tokens its also time usage

[real sierra]

you get functions to see your remaining time

so you can budget accordingly

[fast pagoda]

# Why Tree-sitter
Tree-sitter has relatively efficient parsing and has support for many languages without the need to create and maintain individual parsers or lexers.```

yes but now im downloading 400 tree sitters instead of parsers/lexers bruh

[real sierra]

the part they dont tell you is that the tree sitters are inexplicably incompatible with each other if you change by a single subversion on any of them

upgrading the dependencies on this project is impossible, full stop

[fast pagoda]

well at least in exchange it's orders of magnitude slower than the ones it compared itself to as well

[real sierra]

perfect

wouldnt want my tokens counted too quickly

[fast pagoda]

no no then i cant be sure they did it carefully

[real sierra]

you know what

im gonna go to bed early tonight

no bugs im aware of in the api

[fast pagoda]

tcount    1.339 s ± 0.125 s
scc    49.9 ms ± 1.6 ms
tokei    79.9 ms ± 5.3 ms
cloc    1.331 s ± 0.016 s```

[real sierra]

my bot is stockfish 2

[fast pagoda]

he's cracked

[real sierra]

day full of wins

ive earned some good sleep

[real sierra]

(3am)

[fast pagoda]

that's smarter than me just now git init in my bot folder

2:10 am

[real sierra]

its fine

command line git just leaves my head no matter how much i use it

i gave up and learned github site instead

[fast pagoda]

Downloaded atty v0.2.14
<7 BILLION TREE SITTERS>
  Downloaded linux-raw-sys v0.3.3
  Downloaded tree-sitter-ocaml v0.19.0
  Downloaded tree-sitter-typescript v0.19.0
  Downloaded globset v0.4.6
  Downloaded 86 crates (12.0MiB) in 5.76s (largest was `tree-sitter-typescript` at 3.4MiB)

☠️

damn i thought that would like

compress

at all

for some reason