programming

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

there

[tender river]

no

redefining is fine

[dense kestrel]

can we calc while the other side makes their move or no

[sage crag]

ok there's still a problem

[tender river]

for will refer to the original for after macro expansion

[sage crag]

[tender river]

tho other macros wont be able to use it anymore

[sage crag]

i ## __COUNTER__ does not work like you think it does

[real sierra]

💔

it was such a good idea

would allow nested macro loops

without shadowing vars

[real sierra]

nope

[sage crag]

you need thi

#define concat_inner(a, b) a##b
#define concat(...) concat_inner(__VA_ARGS__)

#define for_(l) for_v(concat(i, __COUNTER__), l)

i dont know why it needs a second degree of separation

[real sierra]

macro machinery

[sage crag]

it just does

i checked the preprocessor

[dense kestrel]

multi-threading?

simd vectorization?

[real sierra]

single threaded

[dense kestrel]

wow

[real sierra]

any parallel processing banned

[dense kestrel]

i will be abusing simd then!!

[real sierra]

[dense kestrel]

shhhh

[sage crag]

for_(10)
expand to
for(int i0=0;i0<10;i0++)
but expand to
for(int i__COUNTER__=0;i__COUNTER__<10;i__COUNTER__++)
if i use concat_inner instead of concat

[dense kestrel]

do we keep things we calculated in the past?

[real sierra]

you can, yes

[dense kestrel]

incredible

[real sierra]

you do have a ram limit

[dense kestrel]

what is the mem limit

[real sierra]

tentatively like 4GB

if you crash every game you're in, you will probably lose the tournament

lets put it that way

[dense kestrel]

hmm

is it any language allowed?

or any LLVM language

[real sierra]

specific languages allowed but under the right conditions im willing to officialize supplied bindings to the chess api

currently C (C++ probably too?) and python supported

there's people working on or planning to work on C# and rust support tho

[dense kestrel]

incredible

[real sierra]

credit to them

[dense kestrel]

i don't even know if i will be able to l1 optimize this with so few tokens

[real sierra]

yea my code is barely under the limit with 189 lines

idea

the piece constants are currently 1 through 6

so I think I can just

int value = 0;
for (int j = 1; j < 7; j++) {
value |= chess_get_bitboard(color, j);
if (value & moveto) break;
}

because

by pure coincidence

the piece constants are roughly sorted by value

[dense kestrel]

what is the strength of the computing

for the bots

and what is the cpu arch

[real sierra]

I don't really have a number

it's running in a VM

it's x86_64

[dense kestrel]

alr

[real sierra]

are you plugging all these answers into an LLM or something

oh I see you're coding already

[dense kestrel]

unfortunately not

also i think gpt is kinda too stupid to be of use in a token limited context

because it probably doesn't understand that you can make everything jank to save space

[real sierra]

you were just going silent for a bit between questions so I wondered if you were actually just shuttling messages between myself and an LLM

[dense kestrel]

💀

anyways

back to the mines of vscode

[tender river]

neuro neuro you can call me neuro

[real sierra]

[tender river]

--> <--

[dense kestrel]

wow instead of writing ts from the ground up, i am going to cut things from an existing bot until i can make it fit

then i will add more heuristics

[real sierra]

need more tokens

its time

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm

[dense kestrel]

okay the stock minimax has

performance is only downhill from here

[real sierra]

ideally this goes without saying but

using anything outside the stdlib is also not allowed

aside from the provided chess api

[real sierra]

found a "sometimes" bug

out of 36 runs in gdb, it ran succesfully 35 of them

[tender river]

gdb

its probably a concurrency issue

[real sierra]

nah i found it

stupid bug

i set some variables = 0 outside of a loop instead of inside

this is so frustrating

my bot is just allergic to capturing pieces somehow

why

[patent elk]

everyday i thank god im not majoring in cs

[real sierra]

nor am i

[patent elk]

i couldnt imagine hinging my future on code

programmers are so strong

[burnt ridge]

Shiro is soo intelligent

[real sierra]

i am so confused

my bot keeps losing to the random one

how is this possible

like it just refuses to capture

re-fuses

why

[jagged marsh]

Bugs I have done myself, maybe related: > vs >= and unsigned vs signed comparisons

[real sierra]

profiling time

[real sierra]

WAIT

[lament igloo]

wondering why the lavalamp app is 150mb
someone extracts it to see
110mb of fonts

[real sierra]

why do i only check whose turn it is once

im playing like 200 moves in the loop that starts immediately after

this could be the breakthrough

it was not the breakthrough

i dont even know how this happens

i dont think i saw it take a single piece except when it was in check

ok i think i actually

have something backwards in the code

it's playing too perfectly badly

[tender river]

was it also like that pre-minification?

[real sierra]

i think its actually optimizing for the opponent's score

[real sierra]

yes

but like

it's playing optimally badly

i think thats why its losing to random

like

its taking no pieces unless in check

and most of its moves place pieces on attacked squares

[tender river]

[real sierra]

its actually impressive from a point of view

i think the backpropogation is prob just inverted

[real sierra]

ok im doing another game

but this time im watching

i want to see if my bot makes a single capture

[olive sable]

I have gotten out of bed

It only took uh, 4 hours

[real sierra]

gm sam!

[hollow spruce]

Token info ?

[real sierra]

my chess bot is under 1024 tokens

[wide flicker]

hi canvas chat has turned to nn but worse so i'm seeking refuge here. in other news i finally got git correctly set up in my new bazzite setup

[hollow spruce]

Do u have idea to add chat in chess?

[real sierra]

no probably not lol

[real sierra]

git

[hollow spruce]

❓

[blissful geyser]

i made something stupid

[hollow spruce]

Round per volume

[hollow spruce]

🙂
Auto clicker

[amber fractal]

Crank the lever meme but the music slowly fades in.
-# Man my brain is tired if it is thinking in memes

[hollow spruce]

This is creativity

[faint sandal]

welcome to /r/baduibattles

you'd fit right in

[blissful geyser]

The crank window now explodes when overcranked beyond 100

and then another window pops up where you have to replace the crank with a spare one by dragging it to the volume crank window

[real sierra]

fixed a bunch of tiny logic bugs in the chess api

never ending

[fluid junco]

does it do it with sound?

[blissful geyser]

yep

plays the loudest explosion.mp3

since its also at 100%

for full immersion

[fluid junco]

hell yeah

[real sierra]

@tender river

i put a - on the backpropogation function

just to see what wouldhappen

it's playing the best damn chess ive ever seen

it actually was optimizing for worst play

[fluid junco]

isn't not taking a piece an illigal move btw?

[olive sable]

why would it be?

[real sierra]

this would make the start of the game rather challenging

OH

it finally clicked

the reason why my backpropogation is reversed

the moves coming out of the root node of my tree are mine

but that means the position they're coming from is the opponent's

i actually want max losses not wins i guess

[fluid junco]

such a me-coded story
trying to maximize wins, maximizes loses instead

[real sierra]

im so proud

all this work wasnt for nothing

my bot now plays a really mean, really aggressive chess

[blissful geyser]

Congrats!

i have a stupid suggestion to make if you dont mind

what about a negative ELO rating chess bot

[real sierra]

a bot that loses as much as possible is hard because it's solving the exact same problem as a bot that wins as much as possible, just for the other player

like its an identical problem

[blissful geyser]

like calculating the fastest way to get their own piece checkmated

[real sierra]

yes

that involves figuring out the fastest way for the opponent to checkmate you

which is what every chess bot tries to do, but for themselves

its the same thing

[blissful geyser]

but no one's done it before no?

[real sierra]

i just did accidentally

[fluid junco]

shiro did

[blissful geyser]

wait fr

[real sierra]

i was missing a minus in my code

oopies

i was wondering why it was so bad

i think i need to adjust my bot's time budget

it's burning through too much time in the early game

[blissful geyser]

there's actually two ways to win a regular chess game

1. checkmate
2. waste your opponents time by making them stressed out and anxious from random and stupid moves

[fluid junco]

if you flip the board and only your pieces land standing, you win

[real sierra]

the time is so tight

idk how to improve my performance too much

time management hard

[fluid junco]

time management so hard I'm afraid i'm losing my job to it

how do I explain to people that I cant do coding non stop without looking at some "epic wombat facts" or whatever
then sitting here trying to estimate how much time I actually wasn't looking at wikipedia

[amber fractal]

You place a small rubber duck on the board and unleash chaos on the board.

[real sierra]

my bot is definitely better than random now

makes a lot of questionable moves but

progress

i think the future for this bot is finding a way to reduce the tree width

if i can optimistically trim branches early that would help a lot

[olive sable]

aight i compiled renpy

now i can start modifying the engine code

[real sierra]

wtf my bot is way below the limit now

fun fact this is my fav number

[olive sable]

why?

explain yourself

[real sierra]

idk i like it

thats like asking why my favourite colour is what it is

[olive sable]

i mean, i do put thought into stuff like that

explaining why you like certain things is interesting

[fluid junco]

I just picked a color first time I was asked and stuck with it

[real sierra]

i dont

i just like what i like

i can associate reasons of it that i thought up afterward

but i definitely didnt come to like things like my favourite colour for particular reasons

such is true with my favourite number

once day i just decided it was my favourite

never changed my mind about it so i guess i was right

[olive sable]

bwaa

[real sierra]

[olive sable]

[real sierra]

SSL

have fun with that

[olive sable]

i wont

[fluid junco]

yeah I kinda dont get that

[olive sable]

lemme vibe code this

[fluid junco]

how can you like a color

[olive sable]

i like blue

but thats cuz im red-green colourblind

[fluid junco]

how does that show

how do you know you like a color

[olive sable]

i view it more favorably than other colours i guess

[real sierra]

I just like blue

you offer me a choice between two colours

I pick the blue one

whether that's because it's my favourite, or whether that's why it's my favourite, is a valid question though

[fluid junco]

if I had to pick a color I would select a random one
which is kinda how I landed with red

[ivory plinth]

#cba6f7

[real sierra]

that better not be

[ivory plinth]

whar

[real sierra]

sorry I thought it was a different colour

[olive sable]

???

[ivory plinth]

its my banner color too xdx
-# (what were you thinking )

[real sierra]

https://colornames.org/search/
throw cd2edb in here

that's what I thought yours was at first

[ivory plinth]

LMFAOOO

[real sierra]

🥀

[amber fractal]

THATS CRAZY

[fluid junco]

Amazing color

[olive sable]

i dont get it

[ivory plinth]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[fluid junco]

we now have jerma-bacteria, shiro-color

what else

[ivory plinth]

forwarding that to gen brb

[amber fractal]

Forgot to like the name

[olive sable]

huh

[real sierra]

there's a feature I wanna implement into my bot I was considering it a while ago but figured I wouldn't have the tokens

currently the tree it builds is discarded and rebuilt each turn

[fluid junco]

follow your dreams and deadlines

[real sierra]

but ideally it re-roots it to the traversed move sequence

[fluid junco]

ooh easy perf win

[real sierra]

yup yup

I can reuse parts of the tree I've already explored

with how it's coded, the move I make will be the most explored move in the tree

[fluid junco]

just stick a global var in there

[real sierra]

so it should be a significant speedup

well it's not that easy

the trouble is that even if I know what move I made from the last tree, I don't know what move the opponent made

there's no feature to get that info so I would have to work backwards to figure it out myself

[fluid junco]

you probably can make the board drom those moves

[real sierra]

I think I take the hash of the current board, undo the last move on the board, get legal moves of that and see which move produces the hash I want

[fluid junco]

then compare boards

yeye

[real sierra]

yesh

but I only have 23 tokens to add all of that and the reroot code

so I'm not sure it fits

[fluid junco]

need to minify other code then?

does the tokenizer count whitespace?

[stray dragon]

FUCK!!!!

was probably the stupid fractal pattern of search stages that i gave colorful function names to

i do wonder if there's a better way to do that

[obsidian mantle]

But arena app gives full list of moves from the game every turn?
With opponent's move being last

And i think it also restarts the bot every turn so you cant remember last move calculations. Maybe this one is wrong i cant remember how i got this info

[stray dragon]

not like it really needs that

[obsidian mantle]

Yeah i thought its strange

But i tried to check something with global variable being changed and the next move it got reset. So i assumed it goes like that.

Iirc

Maybe there are some settings in the arena app for this

[fluid junco]

that's mean

[stray dragon]

wait so then i don't need a while loop running the thing, and only need a main function that runs once?

[obsidian mantle]

It has to be checked

[stray dragon]

it's so close

[obsidian mantle]

If im right then yes but it will make it inconvenient to debug cause you'll have to restart it every time

Not like wrapping it all in while costs a lot of tokens but

[stray dragon]

yeah only saved me like 4

[obsidian mantle]

If its like that then it can save some

[obsidian mantle]

Have you tried hooking your bot to the arena?

Does it work like that?

[stray dragon]

nope

this code hasn't run once

[obsidian mantle]

Ooh

[stray dragon]

i don't think it'll need much reworking once i do start troubleshooting it, but i'm sure it'll need some

[obsidian mantle]

You'll also need to process commands from the app, if we are using UCE

Or maybe shiro will allow us to do it "outside of the token limited area"

[stray dragon]

shiro's api should have me covered

any function with underscores is from that api

[fluid junco]

disables inlining
does inlining via const propagation
thanks gcc

I'm trying to figure out if stuff crashes if you cast a function into a function that has more parameters

it shouldn't, probably, right?

[stray dragon]

no clue

[hollow spruce]

Code seem good

[hollow spruce]

Asm lol

[fluid junco]

at worst this should just waste some stack space, but it should cleanup after

[obsidian mantle]

I feel like it must crash

[stray dragon]

same

[fluid junco]

well yeah that's why I'm trying to test it

need to lookup if that's ub

[hollow spruce]

Pacify the error

[obsidian mantle]

It will just override alligned shit in function and its going to collapse
Or something

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm

[obsidian mantle]

I dont know assembly very well though

[hollow spruce]

Tell me error and i will give solution or error

[obsidian mantle]

Why couldnt they name their operators normally

[fluid junco]

<=>

[hollow spruce]

int attribute((noinline)) call(int a, int b, TwoInputs fun) {
fun(a, b);
}

[obsidian mantle]

I meant the assembly syntax

Maybe i used wrong word saying "operator"

[stray dragon]

yippee

[fluid junco]

operations?

ops

[obsidian mantle]

Basically i wanted to say any keywords

[hollow spruce]

jmp puts

[obsidian mantle]

Yes like that

[fluid junco]

never read any code from the 90's

[obsidian mantle]

Jmp doesnt look bad

[fluid junco]

their vars be like
b
a
jm

[obsidian mantle]

Yeah i have a bunch of old people in my company who name all their variables like bool_1 bool_2 int_15

[fluid junco]

movups

[hollow spruce]

Unclear code

[fluid junco]

they're so cool they have a dissassembler running in their heads that just can't name variables

[wicked vale]

are you sure they didn't hire a decompiler like dnspy as a dev

[fluid junco]

VFMADDSUB132PD - Fused Multiply-AlternatingAdd/Subtract of Packed Double Precision Floating-Point Values

[hollow spruce]

.asciz "lol"
.size .L.str, 4

    .type   .L.str.1,@object                // @.str.1

.L.str.1:
.asciz "%d %d\n"
.size .L.str.1, 7

    .ident  "clang version 20.1.8"
    .section        ".note.GNU-stack","",@progbits

Hmm

[obsidian mantle]

So it worked?

Maybe lucky nothing got broken

Or depends on functions themselves

[fluid junco]

it is undefined behavior to call a function through an incompatible function pointer type

so it may break at any point

[stray dragon]

surely it'll be fine

only takes 4 tokens to define the ints

sure

at least that's everything it needs in 991 tokens, just need to actually run it and fix it

[tender river]

[olive sable]

I was thinking "i wonder wjen my package arrives cuz i kinda need it rn" and roght then the delivery driver appeared infront of my house

I manifested him

[fluid junco]

manifesting

people knew of manifesting when they invented "speak of the devil"

[olive sable]

This calibration mic is a lot smaller than expected

[fluid junco]

hold on let me check the rules

messages should be 13+ appropriate

[olive sable]

[stray dragon]

lol

[midnight sigil]

[cobalt sigil]

huh

[midnight sigil]

name removed to comply with dmca inc. is a good company

[rigid snow]

discord dmcaing apkmirror

gm

[cobalt sigil]

it seems I can't find any old apk about discord as well

up to down only have the latest one

well it seems only apk mirror have the old apks
but need to install apkmirror installer which is a bit weird, but at least it works

[amber fractal]

Let me ask, is it another UI update or is it new features

[cobalt sigil]

tbh I should be dumb and press the update button on Google play, and after I updated it it runs poorly on my phone, when I selected a channal the screen will suddenly went blank and after swapping different channels again then it will become normal
this is the only reason I switch back to slightly older discord ver

[stray dragon]

i'm using the image because of anson's situation and because old mobile discord is still so much better than the new versions

but in case you were wondering what they've done recently:

arrows

[midnight sigil]

my discord hasn't update

[amber fractal]

I got sniped by a discord update on PC that I couldn't deal with because immutable. Glad to have options in that case

[midnight sigil]

do you guys meant the android discord?

[amber fractal]

Android discord is the current discussion yep

[obsidian mantle]

My android discord looks unchanged so far

Is there some mega update ahead again

Or do you mean very old versions

[amber fractal]

Seems like arrows according to t up there

[midnight sigil]

seems fine

I can extract the apk for backup

[stray dragon]

newer versions are like 5x laggier than version 126.21

click on a channel and wait for the messages to load

[obsidian mantle]

Where do i find these arrows

[stray dragon]

never used to do that

i still have the old version and have tried both, it's very noticeable and i don't know how they think it's ok

[amber fractal]

I at least am still staring down an update button

[midnight sigil]

I'm on 296.17

[stray dragon]

app has barely changed appearance or functionality they just push awful updates and never fix issues

[midnight sigil]

that's why it's been grey screens so much while loading a channel

[stray dragon]

yep

[amber fractal]

My experince has already been suboptimal the last couple of days.

[fluid junco]

god imagine implementing av1 encoding for anyone other than NVIDIA users smh

i just want my streams to not be blocky as hell is that too much to ask for

[stray dragon]

yes, your issues are not even on their to-do list

you will get ui updates just to fuck with you

and ads

and nothing more

[olive sable]

Calibration said right surround wasnt tweeting well. Found out its tweeter is completely fucked

A new one is like 70 bucks

[fluid junco]

proper sound costs A TON holyyy

i just use headphones

[olive sable]

Most of the tweeter is fine, its just the dome is dented and the really tiny copper wires are broken

So the part that actually makes the sound is dead basicly

[fluid junco]

if you really care abt that it's money well spent i guess

[olive sable]

Ill just try to find the cheapest possible replacement

I guess for 5 2ndhand speakers with 15 total drivers, having only 1 broken is not too bad

[faint sandal]

[olive sable]

I bought a replacement, 80 bucks with shipping

[midnight sigil]

is this thing new in vs2022

[hollow spruce]

Ghostty https://share.google/RJoOOQ54bqU6hvQqk

[opaque sigil]

Ghostty indeed

[sage crag]

[faint sandal]

[trim valve]

just updated and this still crashes

on the C bot too

wait what

is it randomly crashing

[olive sable]

Room correction be crazy. It gave right height -7dB

[stark needle]

Bruh

[olive sable]

It also gave a really weird EQ to the right surround cuz the tweeter is broken

[rough bloom]

fearful concurrency

[stark needle]

I hope u have fun with ur surround

[olive sable]

I will

Once everything works

But it doesnt

New tweeter if they still have them in stock should be here in 2 weeks. Im expecting my order to get cancelled tho

[stark needle]

bwa

[trim valve]

how

[olive sable]

[cobalt sigil]

da hail is that
it looks bad

[covert bane]

What did I just approve?????
Ts crazy (Adding and removing the same thing is crazy)

[hollow spruce]

Ping is very high

122000 ms

Operation too slow. Less than 1 bytes/sec transferred the last 10 seconds

error: failed retrieving file

Operation too slow. Less than 1 bytes/sec transferred the last 10

[stark needle]

Wtf

[crystal sleet]

Incresed the gap ig

[covert bane]

I... had that same reaction too. I was, going through approvals. and didn't notice this, until I was re-reviewing them for the approval message

[covert bane]

WHEREEE? The gap is the same.

Literally, the rest of the lines

[opaque sigil]

extra space(s)?

[rough bloom]

formatting change, comments were shifted more to the right

[covert bane]

Ooooh, I did not see that. (I'm stupid, lmao)

[rough bloom]

it's weird though, is it tabs not spaces? usually you'd only do this to align the comments in one column

[opaque sigil]

if it was going to do this it could've also lined them up properly smh

lazy bot

[covert bane]

It is, an automated agent tho. Idk what it was thinking, ngl

[covert bane]

true

[rigid snow]

or use tabs

so the editor aligns them

[covert bane]

Ahh

[rigid snow]

the renderer i guess

[covert bane]

I guess

[hollow spruce]

I will use python to asm compiler

In upcoming project

[covert bane]

which one? (I wanna use one too, lol. Seems like it might be kinda efficient / easier to pack into a binary)

[hollow spruce]

Nuitka

I have in planning ones my right hand fix soon

For now i will need help from chatgpt or claude

[trim valve]

ok today's fun game

the arena chess gui keeps segfaulting

and idk why

[covert bane]

code?

[rigid snow]

nuh uh no code

[covert bane]

kaaaay. Then idk how to debug that either 🤷‍♀️

[real sierra]

yeah I'm getting that too

and when the arena chess gui segfaults, it doesn't close the bots

which then ensure that my terminal is utterly unusable to close them

couldn't tell you why your bots are segfaulting, they genuinely don't on my end

[trim valve]

my bots stopped segfaulting for some incomprehensible reason

[trim valve]

cute-chess seems to work fine

[real sierra]

perfect

[real sierra]

does it support tournaments tho

[trim valve]

a lot faster

and is uh

yeah

[real sierra]

oh wow

I'll look into cute chess

it does look like it wasn't made in 2007

[trim valve]

it does also output a nice overview of the tournament results

[real sierra]

oh bred I have big news

my chess bot is now under 1024 tokens

and it works really well

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

it turns out

I had the evaluation flipped

and it was optimizing for worst moves

now it plays a mean chess

[trim valve]

that sounds ideal clearly

[real sierra]

it was doing it so well that I suspected it just from watching it play

it only captured while in check and almost always moved pieces to attacked squares

[trim valve]

its just an appimage which is really convenient

[real sierra]

what's an appimage

[trim valve]

like a bundle of dependencies and the app

so to run it all you need is just $ ./Cute_Chess-1.4.0-x86_64.AppImage

[real sierra]

(it was made in 2008)

[real sierra]

oh awesome

thats new

[trim valve]

just don't be british ez

oh neat cute chess also allows concurrent games

mmm

gonna go illegal move hunting to farm bug reports

[sage crag]

so you can do actual bot tournament

interesting

[trim valve]

huh?

the previous gui also allowed bot tournaments

this just speeds it up massively if you have lots of bots and want to do several rounds for each pairing

time to go illegal move hunting

[real sierra]

illegal moves again

make sure you rebuilt bots since pulling new api ver

i fixed a bunch of issues

[trim valve]

I pulled pretty recently

????

what are you cooking chess bot

[real sierra]

i like thiz

bye bye arena

[trim valve]

once again ???

[real sierra]

is it always pawn moves

[trim valve]

gonna hunt some more but its looking like its imagining pawns

[real sierra]

can you check if theres any weird moves in these games consistently

e.g. en passant or castling

those have historically been troublesome

[sage crag]

phrr

[real sierra]

wait what

even if it imagined a pawn that doesnt make sense

its in check

[sage crag]

bot bot bot bot

ye shiro api

[real sierra]

i never hit these issues

[trim valve]

1. Na3 d5 2. g3 c6 3. f4 b6 4. c4 g5 5. Qb3 h6 6. Qf3 Bg4 7. Qg2 a5 8. Rb1 Bd7
9. Qxd5 Bg7 10. Nc2 Bc8 11. Nh3 Rh7 12. Kd1 h5 13. d4 Ra7 14. Qe6 Ra8 15. Qf5 b5
16. Rg1 Bf6 17. Qxb5 Bd7 18. Qb4 Rg7 19. g4 Qc8 20. Qa3 Qa6 21. gxh5 Kf8 22. Qb3
Bf5 23. Qa3 Bxc2+ 24. Ke1 Bxd4 25. Qf3 Qb5 26. Nxg5 Bxb1 27. Rg2 Nd7 28. a4 Qxa4
29. c5 Qa1 30. Qh3 Ke8 31. Qb3 Nb6 32. Qb5 Nd7 33. Nxf7 Be5 34. Qb6 a4 35. b3
Be4 36. h6 Kf8 37. Qb7 Bc7 38. h3 Qb2 39. Rxg7 Ke8 40. Rg5 Be5 41. Bd2 Bc3
42. Qxc6 Bxd2+ 43. Kd1 Ra6 44. Qg6 Rf6 45. Qxf6 Qa1+ 46. Kxd2 Bd3 47. Qb2 Nb6
48. Qf6 Bb1 49. c6 Nc8 50. Ke1 Qb2 51. Qg6 Bc2
52. Nd6+ {Black makes an illegal move: b1c2} 1-0

this one doesn't seem to die

lemme try the C bot and see if it dies here

[sage crag]

shimo not test every single chess move

phrr

[trim valve]

tbf its only a ~6% per game in my experience

[tawny wren]

I can't fucking stand these random jumps in IDA's disassembly.

[trim valve]

[sullen marsh]

LOSS! LOSS! LOSS!

[trim valve]

shiro the c bot is imploding with no error logs

[sage crag]

classic

[tawny wren]

Just... Why?!

[trim valve]

worse yet

I can't replicate the issue

[real sierra]

works on my machine

[sage crag]

blupibloque

[sage crag]

i suppose thats all that matters

[hollow spruce]

?

[hollow spruce]

🤫

[sullen marsh]

[hollow spruce]

Im making activities in
Using ###### js

[trim valve]

just checking you can make cute chess run a tournament of stock c bot vs stock c bot and nothing implodes?

[real sierra]

currently running stock c bot vs my own bot and it hasnt imploded

ill try stock vs stock in asec

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

i have been ticking the box "recover crashed engines"

[trim valve]

oooh wait

[sage crag]

[trim valve]

this might be a quirk of the 500 moves thing

[real sierra]

500 moves ?

[trim valve]

I think its using the same instance of the bot for every tournament round?

[sage crag]

still using static buffer

[real sierra]

yes

[sage crag]

[trim valve]

yeah then the example C bot will only play 500 moves in total before dying

[real sierra]

why

[real sierra]

OH

lol

makes sense

well usually matches wont last that long

ill have 50 turn rule draws enabled (if possible)

[trim valve]

nono

[real sierra]

wdym no

i was always gonna do that

[trim valve]

the problem is it was using the same instance of the program for each match

[real sierra]

OH

right

each match only has to play like 100 moves

to hit the limit

[trim valve]

ragequit

[real sierra]

this is frustrating

my bot can clear the random bot in taking material

but its just

not fast enough to solve mates

and it keeps blundering

[trim valve]

now to figure out how to debug this

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

need better pruning

iterative deepening also help solve checkmates better

[real sierra]

doesnt apply to my approach

all i need is improved heuristics

and maybe a blunder protector

[trim valve]

om

[real sierra]

i have big speedup idea

but i need hashing to work

[trim valve]

this makes it work btw

but is uh, nonideal

[real sierra]

perfect

restart bot when die

jkjk ill try to find whats crashing

nice

hashing working

idk if i can fit hashing tho

[olive sable]

Replacement xbox i was meant to remove the capacitor off weeks ago is apparently a 1.6 model

So doesnt even need new caps

[chilly maple]

is neuro's LLM local ?
or is it using a cloud based model using Lora's to assist it ?

if local i'd be super curious about the hardware used.

[real sierra]

local, almost certainly

you can find vedal's specs in #1326303411041206303 (though idk how up-to-date that section is)

[trim valve]

sorta random question, but for the actual tournament are you planning on keeping the same instance of the program for every run or starting them fresh every game?

[molten flame]

what is programming like?

im just beginning to go in CS

[real sierra]

probably the same instance with recovery enabled, I'll change the example bots to have while loops instead of for loops at some point

[trim valve]

fair, just thinking that might cause some funky logic when it comes to caching tree traversals / timekeeping

[sage crag]

ye

should restart bots between games

[trim valve]

idk if cute-chess can do that directly

[olive sable]

New batch is in

[nocturne olive]

I'm quite confident Neuro's LLM runs on another PC with more VRAM though

[trim valve]

nice shipping label

[real sierra]

yes it says so in the #1326303411041206303 doesn't it

[nocturne olive]

I don't see it saying so, Neuro and Vedal's streaming PCs have the same amount of VRAM

[maiden geyser]

xb360 gta 5 disk is tough

[real sierra]

these are the specs vedal gave me

[nocturne olive]

I'm confident there's a 3rd PC somewhere with either multiple 3090s, or one of the enterprise AI GPUs

[real sierra]

then vedal's lying or it's a recent change

[nocturne olive]

Or he just hasn't told anyone about it

24GB for an LLM at the level of Neuro sounds too small

[rough bloom]

why are you confident about this

[trim valve]

$ ./example_bot
uci
id name My Chess Bot
id author Author Name Here
uciok
isready
readyok
ucinewgame
position fen 6r1/8/8/7r/3b4/8/1p1k4/6K1 w - - 32 142
go wtime 300000 btime 300000 winc 0 binc 0
Floating point exception

[real sierra]

you do sound a little

[real sierra]

fpe

I'm not home for another like

[nocturne olive]

Bigger LLM for better quality, or separate LLMs for both Neuros

[real sierra]

7h so

[olive sable]

I now own roughly 15 copies of gta5

[nocturne olive]

And if an enterprise GPU, more bandwidth for better inference speed

[trim valve]

ah wait

[rough bloom]

none of these require a separate PC

[real sierra]

no legal moves

so Len moves is 0

[trim valve]

smh shiro

[real sierra]

?

wdym smh

[trim valve]

there are legal moves

[real sierra]

legal move finder bugged again

[real sierra]

classic

[trim valve]

admittedly

[real sierra]

how does it not see that

[nocturne olive]

Well the current PCs as far as I'm aware don't have more than those GPUs stated
Unless Neuro's PC secretly had an A100 added to it

[real sierra]

that's a super rare situation actually

it's double check

I don't think I've had a test case for double check yet

[nocturne olive]

Well, who knows anyway, in my head it seems likely but my head is also full of pixels so I don't know

[trim valve]

1. a4 Nc6 2. b3 h5 3. d4 d6 4. Kd2 e5 5. e3 Rh7 6. Qg4 g6 7. Qf4 Qf6 8. Be2 Be6 9. Qf3 Bh6 10. g3 Ke7 11. Qxh5 Bd5 12. Nf3 Bg7 13. Bb2 Ke8 14. Na3 Qf5 15. Ba6 Bf6 16. Rhd1 g5 17. Rab1 Nd8 18. Rh1 Bc6 19. Rhe1 Qh3 20. g4 bxa6 21. b4 Rb8 22. Kd3 Qxg4 23. Qh3 Bb5+ 24. Kc3 Qxd4+ 25. Kb3 Rb7 26. Qc8 Qc3+ 27. Kxc3 Rxh2 28. Nxb5 g4 29. Ba3 Rb6 30. Ng1 c6 31. f4 Rd2 32. Bc1 Be7 33. Qxc6+ Nxc6 34. Nf3 Nb8 35. Kxd2 Nf6 36. Nxa7 Kd8 37. Kd3 Nc6 38. Nxc6+ Kc7 39. Rb2 a5 40. Kd2 Nd7 41. Ng5 Nb8 42. Nxf7 exf4 43. Nd4 Rc6 44. Ne6+ Kb6 45. Ke2 Ka7 46. e4 Kb6 47. c4 Rc5 48. Ra2 Rg5 49. Nd4 Bf8 50. Rf1 Rb5 51. Nf3 Rd5 52. Rd1 Kc7 53. Nd4 Kb6 54. Re1 axb4 55. Nd8 Re5 56. Nb7 f3+ 57. Kf1 Rxe4 58. Ree2 Nc6 59. Bf4 Re7 60. Bh2 Nxd4 61. Kg1 Re8 62. Bg3 Ka6 63. Re5 Ka7 64. Ra5+ Kb8 65. Re2 Re6 66. Ra2 Nb3 67. Rc2 Nd2 68. Bf2 Kc8 69. Nxd6+ Kc7 70. Ne4 Rb6 71. Rb2 Bd6 72. Ra8 b3 73. Rg8 Nb1 74. Ra8 Na3 75. Ra5 Be7 76. Rc2 Bf6 77. Rd2 Bc3 78. Ra8 Bh8 79. Bc5 Rd6 80. Kf1 Kd7 81. Ra5 Kc8 82. Re2 fxe2+ 83. Ke1 Kd7 84. Ng5 Kc7 85. Ra7+ Kb8 86. Bf2 Be5 87. Rh7 Nc2+ 88. Kxe2 Ra6 89. Rh2 Bb2 90. Rg2 Ne1 91. Nf3 Rxa4 92. Nh2 g3 93. Bd4 Kb7 94. Kxe1 Kc7 95. Kf1 Kd7 96. Bh8 Ra3 97. Bf6 Kc6 98. Rc2 Ra6 99. Bh4 Ra3 100. Bg5 Ra2 101. c5 Ra6 102. Bd2 Kb5 103. c6 Ra5 104. Rc5+ Kxc5 105. c7 Kd5 106. Bb4 Kc6 107. Kg1 gxh2+ 108. Kh1 Rc5 109. Bc3 Bc1 110. Bg7 Ra5 111. c8=N Kb5 112. Bh8 Kc6 113. Bg7 Kc7 114. Na7 Kb7 115. Bf8 Ka6 116. Bb4 Bg5 117. Be7 Rc5 118. Nc8 b2 119. Bf6 Bc1 120. Kg2 Rc3 121. Kf1 Kb5 122. Be5 Rxc8 123. Bb8 Kb4 124. Ba7 Rg8 125. Bg1 hxg1=R+ 126. Kf2 R1g3 127. Kf1 Rb8 128. Ke1 Kc3 129. Kd1 Rd3+ 130. Ke2 Rh8 131. Kf1 Rd4 132. Kf2 Rh2+ 133. Ke1 Rh1+ 134. Kf2 Rh8 135. Kg1 Rd5 136. Kf2 Bh6 137. Kg1 Kd2 138. Kf2 Rh5 139. Kf1 Bg7 140. Kf2 Rg8 141. Kg1 Bd4+``` is the pgn

which uh

[real sierra]

almost looks like

random moves...

[trim valve]

gonna watch through that game

[real sierra]

random move double check is crazy tho

max win

[trim valve]

oh even more cursed

that rook providing check was a promoted pawn from a capture

[real sierra]

the rook-promotion-xray-bishop-double-discovered check

[trim valve]

(it did move before providing check a fair bit, but worth pointing out)

[real sierra]

oh also how is the rust API looking

[trim valve]

it crashes less than the c api

[real sierra]

how

[trim valve]

simple

I lie

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

it just panics instead of segfaulting

but like the only thing I had to fix was my handling of empty move arrays

[sage crag]

phrrr

internet bad

ban internet

[real sierra]

Internet banned

against chess contest rules

[sage crag]

!ban internet

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

tl;dr rust doesn't like it when you make a slice with a null pointer as the base

even if its len 0

[real sierra]

makes sense

[trim valve]

just pushed changes

[real sierra]

the null check probably happens before any length arithmetic

[trim valve]

ye I basically had to do it here

previously that unsafe bit would panic

at some point I kinda wanna make it so that if you build in release it also builds the C api in release

but thats a soon™ task

[restive badger]

omw to make a blockhead out of stockfish

[real sierra]

yeah once you have this all together if you could write some short build instructions

so I can verify that I can build it on my end

[tender river]

i'm trying ok

[real sierra]

the chessening approaches

I still need a banner of some kind

[restive badger]

literally nepal

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

rule 3 not violated 🤫

[trim valve]

idk there's not a whole lot, just:
make sure you have clang (I could probably change it to gcc but bindgen uses clang so w/e)
git clone https://github.com/owobred/chess-competition-rust-bindings/
cd chess-competition-rust-bindings
cargo run / cargo run --release (or cargo build, result is put at target/<debug|release>/chess_bot)

[real sierra]

can I have gcc and clang

[trim valve]

in what way

[real sierra]

I already have gcc

[trim valve]

like configurable

oh installed together

[real sierra]

I don't want to uninstall to get clang

[trim valve]

I have both

[tender river]

you can

bin/c[c,++} -> default compiler (usually gcc or clang)
bin/g{cc,++} -> gcc
bin/clang{,++} -> clang

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

is there a convention for which I'm meant to call or nah

[real sierra]

meant to call what

[trim valve]

like should I be running cc instead of clang

[sage crag]

call cc only if you are not using any clang/gcc specific features

[real sierra]

idk

[sage crag]

cc is a c spec compliant compiler

[trim valve]

pretty sure I'm not doing anything clang specific shruge

[sage crag]

gcc and clang both support most of each other's features

if you dont know if its safe to use cc, use a specific compiler

ideally the one you are testing with

[real sierra]

either way

it doesn't really matter that much

someone using rust can surely install clang

[trim valve]

thank you bot this is incredible move

[real sierra]

[olive sable]

after 3 weeks of my sisters tablet being stuck in customs, i have received a bill of 90 bucks import costs
thank god im not the one paying

[trim valve]

posting again because it looks cool

[sage crag]

this is actually me playing all of these games

[trim valve]

wtf

[olive sable]

[trim valve]

how did defender not pick you up

[sage crag]

tehe

[real sierra]

koniibot

[olive sable]

ban konii for cheating

[real sierra]

I'm tempted to send my compiled bot to bred so she can find bugs in it

but what if he reverse engineers it

[olive sable]

im sure she wouldnt

[sage crag]

shiro literacy rates dropping globally

[real sierra]

oh dear I apologize

I middle of class

[sage crag]

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

tv blue screen hiding in your vm

[real sierra]

ty konii

[trim valve]

surely I would have no need to reverse engineer the bot as it would be worse

[olive sable]

i dont see a reason to recreate flawed design

[real sierra]

I actually don't think I can beat my bot on 1 minute time

I always lose

it doesn't play super genius but it plays way faster than I can

and the moves average out to sensible

[olive sable]

i have my first day of school tomorrow

hopefully ill have time to chess

[sage crag]

how about on 15 minute

[real sierra]

I haven't tried on 15 minute

it prob scary

[sage crag]

can it beat magnus carlsen yet

[tender river]

ye

[sage crag]

[tender river]

1 second

[sage crag]

in 1 second chess mayb

what about in classical game

[trim valve]

there's a couple touches I wanna add to the rust api so its a little less awful to use

like adding bitwise ops back to the bitboards

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hornet-shaw-hollow-knight-silksong-gif-13205433055363544945

[trim valve]

huh actually now I think about it coroutines could be very fun if they're not banned

actually nvm they probably wouldn't give the benefit I was thinking of because done() blocks

[sage crag]

coroutine allowed

threading not

mpc not

[trim valve]

also random thought

is it theoretically possible to misuse signals so I can ponder whilst the enemy is thinking

like theoretically if I alarm(0) and have a signal handler registered

[olive sable]

ive been thinking about more path pruning stuff, but the problem with thinking about the opponents intentions is that the opponent might be the dumbest fuck in existence

assuming they only do smart choises is a gamble

[trim valve]

i mean if they're purely bad then they just lose no?

its more a risk if they can bait you into wasting all your time

[real sierra]

this is reasonable to worry about but as bred said it's often a non-issue

if you assume the opponent plays well and are wrong, it usually improves your position

not that many cases where your success is fully reliant on the opponent playing well, but it can happen

[olive sable]

well, what if i prune a branch that looks bad at depth 1 but is actually good at a further depth

[real sierra]

that's why you go deeper than depth 1

[trim valve]

then you had a bad pruning metric I think?

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

that too

[olive sable]

hmmm

[real sierra]

but yeah pruning early is hard

often it's just a heuristic to prune moves that are probably bad

[olive sable]

how much time do we have again?

[real sierra]

1 minute

[olive sable]

per round?

[real sierra]

1 minute per game

for each bot

[olive sable]

[real sierra]

no increment

[olive sable]

so fast code is a concern too

[real sierra]

there's a tradeoff between looking at better moves and more moves

the more heuristics and logic you use, the longer it takes to process a line of moves

[olive sable]

maybe ill do dynamic depth, fewer legal moves means we can search deeper that round

and ofcourse we cache that

[real sierra]

don't forget the quiescence search

[olive sable]

the what

[real sierra]

https://www.chessprogramming.org/Quiescence_Search

[trim valve]

tbh for how unstreamlined the rust version is

I'm actually kinda proud of that token count

[sage crag]

nah its a non issue

this is how humans play too

you assume that the opponent will make the optimal move

if you dont, you lose the zero sum game

[olive sable]

ok

[trim valve]

like I could probably cut a few by just doing a use chess_api::*;

[sage crag]

[olive sable]

offload as many tokens into the chess api as possible

[trim valve]

I'm trying to make it as 1:1 as possible

but uh

[trim valve]

I am also very likely to add some cheeky deref impls

[sage crag]

c gets those for free

as well as all operators

[trim valve]

exactly

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

there's no issue with implementing functionality that exists in the original

[olive sable]

hmm

if we cache previous depth searches, than we already know for the next search which paths are unoptimal, which gives us more time for even more searches

[tender river]

shiro can i make haskell bindings

[real sierra]

does the token counter support haskell

[tender river]

[real sierra]

if

• the token counter supports it
• I can figure out how to build it
• someone makes the API bindings
  I'll support it

generally those are the requirements

[nocturne olive]

Unfortunately Kotlin fails part 1

[real sierra]

I really tried

it was hell

[tender river]

[real sierra]

check that it's not commented out in the Cargo.toml

[tender river]

it is

[real sierra]

any commented out packages have dependency hell that prevents them being uncommented

though admittedly I didn't try only uncommenting one language at a time

and rebuilding

that could work

[opaque sigil]

you can switch to 0.23.0 and comment out a couple (iirc bash,markdown,ocaml and another one) and then it builds

but pointing it to a kotlin file blows up when trying to instantiate something

[real sierra]

kotlin

[trim valve]

surely a 0.23.0 fork wouldn't be too hard

[real sierra]

!

[opaque sigil]

0.23 was the newest version that doesn't break the program for me

there's 0.25 but that broke pretty much everything in tcount

[real sierra]

surely if I email the developer they'll update it

[opaque sigil]

besides half the languages don't support that it seems

[sage crag]

buket

[trim valve]

[tender river]

my brain is a bucket

[hoary lion]

oddly philosphical

[trim valve]

honestly rust might have less silly syntax shenanegans than expected

[real sierra]

what am I looking st

[trim valve]

two random move bots

top one is C, bottom is rust

[real sierra]

oooo

I see

[trim valve]

just kinda suprised at how close their token count is

[tender river]

no you shr

[real sierra]

but you're using rand

[trim valve]

[trim valve]

I am too lazy to manually do rand at this very moment

[trim valve]

also surely I won't need it in my actual bot

[real sierra]

surely

well if you do want to

i think a good way is to get the Zobrist hash of the first board as a random seed

then LCG

[trim valve]

fair

[tender river]

shr

you only need token count for supported languages

right

right

?

[real sierra]

actually a Fibonacci lfsr would work

[real sierra]

[tender river]

[trim valve]

tbf that C example could probably lose some tokens with minimal effort too

[real sierra]

I mean it's an example

it was meant to be easy to understand

[sage crag]

use {rand::{*, seq::*}, chess_api::*};

fn main() {
    loop {
        if let Some(mov) = Board::get().get_legal_moves().choose(&mut thread_rng()) {
            push(mov);
        }
        done()
    }
}

does this work

[real sierra]

it's not near the token limit

I think it being easy to read is more important

there might be beginners who wanna try the challenge

[trim valve]

no

but

[sage crag]

why not

[real sierra]

they can worry about shrinking it on their own

[trim valve]

if I implement some cheeky clones

[sage crag]

i obviously cant compile it

[trim valve]

use {rand::{*, seq::*}, chess_api::*};

fn main() {
    loop {
        if let Some(mov) = Board::get().get_legal_moves().choose(&mut rng()) {
            chess_api::push(*mov);
        }
        done()
    }
}

this compiles

[sage crag]

lord

does it work

64 tokens

also is it possible to remove the semicolon

[real sierra]

the rust bots are going to be hard competitors to beat

more macros is the only way

[sage crag]

not with c macros

[trim valve]

seemingly yes

[real sierra]

I'm running out of things to macro

[sage crag]

hblang will be biggest competitor

[sage crag]

im too good

[real sierra]

not that many of my code segments are repeatable

[sage crag]

[sage crag]

can you remove semicolon

[real sierra]

again the C example bot is not trying to be tiny

it's trying to be easy to understand

but rust looks very competitive if it shrinks this nicely