programming

[outer dock]

also got nothing about programming at all in uni

[real sierra]

I was lucky enough to get some lessons at the end of high school but I already knew how to program by then from learning on my own

[verbal grove]

well i went to a school for programming/tech related things so im a bit of an expert in those fields

but python is easy to learn

[rigid snow]

no, they don't teach programming until like year 5-6 here, he did completely on his own

[outer dock]

I mean i didn't think id need it for anything and just leave it to actual programmers

[verbal grove]

(year 7-8 here in public school. but barely)

[tight sparrow]

i am at work shiro i unfortunately will have to kill you for pinging me

[real sierra]

I'm killed

kill -9 iro.sh

[outer dock]

And thought just a high GPA would get me work but apparently not ive to invest alot into alot of stuff help imagine two degrees not enough

[pseudo lynx]

sadly networking is required to get a job

[real sierra]

degree is one requirement of many to get a job

it sad how little they inform you of that throughout school

[rigid snow]

not off topic btw

[real sierra]

I'm in the position where I've checked every box except my degree

[tight sparrow]

?ban 196063748354473984 sand delayed

[real sierra]

I just need to finish the degree and I'm hired

[verbal grove]

@real sierra big question now, what is the improved percentage(as in did the model or agent get better at doing things without inhaling my tokens) if it used 500k tokens the last time to debug simple things. but now its about 200k ish after i tuned it, i was asked this and i do not know how to do the math on that

[outer dock]

I mean I'm from nowhere so it's difficult as heck to do anything, other than maybe try to get a scholarship in eu/us and that will give me connections maybe

[real sierra]

you reduced your token use by 60% I guess?

[olive sable]

the last semester of my degree will be doing actual work at an actual game-dev studio, so im sure ill find a job pretty fast

[outer dock]

Also sorry again didn't mean to fload messages in unrelated channel..

[verbal grove]

alright thank you il forward that

good percentage too

[outer dock]

Erm, what field are you getting in it

[real sierra]

mathematics

[pseudo lynx]

are you doing a undergrad degree shiro?

[real sierra]

yes

[outer dock]

Erm so, try chemistry to maximum job chance ?

Even minor in it

[real sierra]

that's just more degree stuff

[verbal grove]

should i be concerned that a single c++ file in my project that someone else worked on is 5000+ lines?

[real sierra]

seems like the wrong idea

your degrees are probably fine

and evidently you still can't find a job so that's not what you're missing

[olive sable]

i feel like getting another degree wont help too much

[pseudo lynx]

as a cs and math degree holder, working in pharma now, the degree just helped me get into the door

[real sierra]

^

it's just one requirement, there are many others

[outer dock]

Ehh..

[real sierra]

networking opportunities, experience

go to some job fairs or events in your field

be social

meet people

[verbal grove]

fun part is a degree is the last thing you really need for the easy and good paying jobs here

[outer dock]

Well, ive to move first i guess

[verbal grove]

its just a verification that you can do the job you want to do, atleast thats how it is here. hence why i never got a degree and im still doing the job i wanted to do

[outer dock]

What do yall think about a masters scholarship and getting into academia with it in the eu/us ?

[real sierra]

my job wants to hire me but can't until I get my degree 😭

[verbal grove]

depends on the department

[outer dock]

(im middle eastern )

[verbal grove]

what country and what do you want to do

(also what branch)

[real sierra]

academia is a path for some people

personally I'd hate being in university that long

[outer dock]

Uk perhaps, what do u mean what branch

[verbal grove]

lets say you work as a technician. but what do you work on. machinery, car's etc

the job that you want to do but what specifically

[outer dock]

Ah, you know those health workers in WHO? Generally something like this. a researcher.

[verbal grove]

ah

in that case germany is gonna be your heaven

[woven temple]

Chances of landing a job in academia depend on so many things

But yep, germany sounds good in that field

[verbal grove]

(and yes im german and yes most of my friends and family are working in those types of fields)

[outer dock]

I mean i was intending to work in factories here as a quality control / or r&d scientist but yeahh it beyond terrible and connections only here

[verbal grove]

meh

[outer dock]

Also sure i will look into getting anything there, again a scholarship into connections/jobs whatever

[verbal grove]

its your path to take. just make sure to stay on track

[real sierra]

I wanna work on my chess bot but I have classes

[outer dock]

Sure, ah also this factory thing was a failsafe if scholarships failed but its failing itself before anything

[verbal grove]

well thats how it is

yk i just had a good idea to make money, il brb

[woven temple]

I currently wouldn't recommend a scholarship in the us as an outsider tbh. Visa russian roulette (but let's not discuss this here)

[real sierra]

not discussing that is probably wise

[pseudo lynx]

as someone in the states, I would not recommend doing the student visa, the lanscape is wild atm

[real sierra]

probably a topic best for DMs if you really want to dive into it

[outer dock]

If you mean bc of political stuff as a muslim then meh whatever + if anything ive a brother there studying but he cant find me anything

[pseudo lynx]

^

[olive sable]

why not do both?

[real sierra]

no laptop

[verbal grove]

probably bad teachers

[real sierra]

that too

[olive sable]

code on paper

[verbal grove]

shrio i can code on my calculator

[real sierra]

had to do this for exams before

[olive sable]

i have done so before ngl

[verbal grove]

be creative

[real sierra]

C++ on paper

horrible experience

-5/10

[verbal grove]

yes sir

[pseudo lynx]

i hated this in uni

[olive sable]

manual vertex positions and shader calculations cuz i was bored

[outer dock]

I also got told to not apply for unis in middle east bc they are trash but again, I'd take anything

[real sierra]

"please write the constructor, deconstructor, copy constructor for a binary tree" Bro I am fucking pen and paper

[verbal grove]

->

bless your soul for things like that

[real sierra]

oh don't bless my soul

I failed

[olive sable]

uni has a reputation of needing to study a lot, the college im going to is more of having to work on a projects every waking hour.

[real sierra]

[verbal grove]

thats why i rebuilt a calculator with a rasberry pi pico to be my only notebook il ever need.

[verbal grove]

il take that rather than studying

any day

[olive sable]

yep

me too

[woven temple]

In the end where you study is always the lesser thing. Way more important is how you sell yourself aka networking and self motivation. If you have a degree but nothing else to show or tell then noone will hire you

[verbal grove]

studying sucks

[olive sable]

i like using my brain, not using my memory

[verbal grove]

exactly

[olive sable]

my memory is not even that bad, it just doesnt want to work for stuff im not interested in

[verbal grove]

yeeeee

[real sierra]

can't remember what I had for breakfast but that white leather sofa that I sat on once in the living room at my uncle's house when I was 4? permanent memory

[verbal grove]

listen once i had to write a 50 page essay about what i want to do when im done with school and what i did the past 4 years.... i cant even remember what i ate last friday so how am i gonna do stuff like that?

[outer dock]

I mean it is insanely hard for me to get experience in anything, they don't hire you as a student, also I legit lost a sales job once because he found out i was going to uni also two years before it i lost another job the moment i told them im returning to uni for another degree

[real sierra]

if you're trying to remember Friday your goals are set a bit too high

let's start with 10 min ago shall we

[olive sable]

the only essay i had good grades on was one on the ps1's graphics system, and one on propeller hydrodynamics

besides that i failed most of them

[real sierra]

I'm great at essays

they're kinda fun too

[verbal grove]

i made toast with butter salami and cheese for breakfast with a coffe. 8 sugar cubes 5 shots of milk 1 tea-spoon of honey.

10 minutes ago is easy enough

[olive sable]

if the subject is not something im interested in, my essay will not be good

[verbal grove]

agreed

thats why i hate school

[woven temple]

Essays are wonderful. Just pure chaotic bias. Lab protocols however...

[real sierra]

is that even coffee

[olive sable]

no thats salami

[real sierra]

that's more like you added coffee to your sugar milk than the reverse

[verbal grove]

its an energy drink

i code for 16 hours a day i need to stay awake somehow

[outer dock]

Just use AI my whole graduation project is assembled by chatgpt

[olive sable]

bruh

nah

[outer dock]

written by me tho*

[real sierra]

ask anyone here how much I've been coding the last week or so

[verbal grove]

i wish

[verbal grove]

ehem

i have a 8000+ file project to crunch trough

and i am almost done

[hoary lion]

project from depths of hell ahh

[olive sable]

if i made ai make my project, than that aint my project. i just use it to help fix some bugs here and there, but the broad strokes will be mine

[verbal grove]

agreed

[woven temple]

I need to write statistical analysis scripts
Not fun at all

[pseudo lynx]

I wish I had motivation to code more but after work I'm too tired

[verbal grove]

depends

[uneven pulsar]

chat, chat

[hoary lion]

very depends ngl

[uneven pulsar]

i had a revelation

[verbal grove]

if i need to write a testing script for one part of my project i just tell my agent to make it

[real sierra]

would you be interested in coding a chess bot for a tournament I'm hosting

[verbal grove]

i am listening

[uneven pulsar]

SCP foundation is object oriented horror

[real sierra]

just a friendly contest

[verbal grove]

thtas easy to figure out

[pseudo lynx]

maybe

[outer dock]

Yeah dont actually do it, i believe ai detection tools in ur countries are insanity good rn

[real sierra]

[verbal grove]

we dont have any luckily

[real sierra]

+1 participant

[pseudo lynx]

just remind me

[uneven pulsar]

but hard to master

[verbal grove]

because "if you ask an ai to write most of your things but the ai actually wrote it correctly with everything inside that is needed. that means you know the basics and you get an A"

[real sierra]

I think programmers will get a ping when it starts

[verbal grove]

:3

[olive sable]

make it a server wide event. @ the whole server

[outer dock]

Also btw pet me in my 7 years in uni i didnt cheat in any single exam ever (the cheating rate here is like 99% of students)

[hoary lion]

you were in uni for 7 years?

[real sierra]

that's basically @ programmers, nobody else is going to take part

[verbal grove]

and that suprises you?

[real sierra]

they hinted they have multiple degrees

[outer dock]

yes two degrees

[hoary lion]

i thought there was something more than phd lol

[verbal grove]

im getting a headache

[real sierra]

PhD usually takes 10 years or so total

[olive sable]

imagine cheating on somethign you paid for. i guess if the only reason you're doing it is the degree then it doesnt really matter

[uneven pulsar]

that's beginner stuff
be at uni for 7 years for 1 degree

[verbal grove]

you pay for school?

its free here

[real sierra]

🤝 year 6 and no degree

[hoary lion]

[olive sable]

yes, most people do

[verbal grove]

ouch

the only thing i paid for is going to private school

[outer dock]

Eh. I have two bachelors
Masters usually 2~3
Phd usually 3~5

In my country masters 5 and PhD 7 and yall ask why i wonna leave

[hoary lion]

almost most of the world pay uni

[olive sable]

its not too expensive, its a grand or 2 including books and stuff

for my college at least

[verbal grove]

meh

[real sierra]

I take a reduced course load and pay 6k a year

[uneven pulsar]

4 years to finish classes (+work)
a semester of nothing (but work)
a semester for writing thesis (+work)
get degree
4 more semesters (3 passive) of random humanities BA to retain spot in dormitory where the peeps are

[verbal grove]

i would never pay something to learn anything besides a drivers license

[olive sable]

i would

and i do

[hoary lion]

almost everyone does

living in a good country ig

[real sierra]

I'm just taking few courses a term because full course load is too many

I figure it's better to graduate slowly than to pass away before I finish uni

[verbal grove]

hey shiro

[real sierra]

hey

[outer dock]

What country are u ? Germany?

[olive sable]

my vulkan is complainign about me not destroying buffers but i cant figure out which ones i didnt destroy

[verbal grove]

i think my code agents are finally not spitting junk anymore

[olive sable]

belgium

[verbal grove]

i am germany

[verbal grove]

hmm

thatsbad

[real sierra]

destroy all of them and un-destroy the ones that you need one at a time

[olive sable]

bro is the whole country of germany

[verbal grove]

xd

i wish

[olive sable]

this is end-of-program clean-up. and you have to destroy each one individually

[verbal grove]

yep after 180 days of tuning my ai coders finally function

now i dont have to debug on my own

(and not worry about random bs)

[real sierra]

we're gonna get vibe coded chess bots 🥀

[olive sable]

[verbal grove]

i didnt say they were efficient

dont worry

i will manage to fit the entire code of my chess bot in 5 lines

without calling for anything external

(besides the api probably)

[olive sable]

oh i just had to destroy and recompile

[verbal grove]

also @real sierra yes i vibe-code but i also know what im doing. agents are for bugfixing and maybe documentation and creating symple features. there is no way i can code any of my projects entirely with ai

(well mabye with git-worktree's but thats spotty)

[midnight sigil]

I think I havent't programmed for a month now

[verbal grove]

what do you even code in? im curious

[trim valve]

shrio how are you supposed to free the moves returned by chess_get_legal_moves

[pseudo lynx]

I want to try the neuropilot extension with one of my local llm's to see how well it works compared to Continue, which has been broken for local llm stuff for months

[outer dock]

I mean are yall programming for living or as a hobby

[verbal grove]

living and hobby

[trim valve]

I would rather avoid manually freeing it, surely it is more of an api thing, e.g. a chess_free_moves_array(Move *array, int len)

[midnight sigil]

mixed

mainly java py and cpp

[verbal grove]

dam

cpp is good

[obsidian mantle]

I am doing stupid industrial automation on some pascal-like language.
I wish i was a real programmer

[verbal grove]

java and py is meh

[midnight sigil]

hell no

[verbal grove]

ig

[midnight sigil]

they are goated

[verbal grove]

i can understand java to some degree but not py

[pseudo lynx]

both, but mostly work stuff is unix/ruby based and hobby is just learning stuff/fixing extensions to read manga

[midnight sigil]

py is really simple, if you can understand english you can understand py

[trim valve]

cc @real sierra because I forgot to ping

[obsidian mantle]

Its called "structured text"
Rn im doing heating system automation (has to check the temperature and turn on the heating, also has monitor which shows all shit and has buttons to control it manually)

[midnight sigil]

[verbal grove]

-.-

geez thats easy even for me

[midnight sigil]

bro think this a github discussion chain

[obsidian mantle]

The hardest thing i did at my job was write windows gui program to read archives from some device and store results in an excel file

[olive sable]

textures are now also object dependent. i can now start on making the system support multi-object rendering

[obsidian mantle]

And I stole tcp processing part from the internet

I kind of realised i want to be programer somewhere when i was 24 which is pretty late i guess

[hollow spruce]

Python libraries evolve to incorporate new technologies through a dynamic, community-driven process that addresses new computational paradigms, performance limitations, and specific domain needs. By continuously adapting, Python maintains its status as a versatile and powerful language for data science, artificial intelligence (AI), web development, and other cutting-edge fields.
Drivers of Python library evolution
Emerging technologies: The rapid development of new technologies compels the Python community to create and adapt libraries to support them. Examples include:
Artificial intelligence and machine learning (AI/ML): As AI has grown, libraries like TensorFlow, PyTorch, and Keras have evolved to support complex deep learning models, new algorithms, and advanced techniques like automated machine learning (AutoML).
Quantum computing: Python has integrated with the quantum field through libraries such as Qiskit and PyQuil, providing a high-level interface for developers to experiment with quantum algorithms.
Internet of Things (IoT): Specialized, lightweight versions of Python, such as MicroPython and CircuitPython, were developed to allow Python to run efficiently on embedded systems and microcontrollers.
Blockchain: Libraries like Web3.py enable Python developers to interact with blockchain networks and create decentralized applications.
Performance enhancements: Python is an interpreted language, which traditionally made it slower than compiled languages like C++. To remain competitive for computationally intensive tasks, Python libraries and alternative interpreters have evolved to boost performance.
Accelerated computation: Libraries like NumPy and SciPy have undergone

[olive sable]

[hollow spruce]

significant optimizations for numerical tasks. Tools like Cython compile Python code to C to achieve faster execution.
Concurrency improvements: To address the limitations of the Global Interpreter Lock (GIL), libraries and language updates have improved support for asynchronous programming (async/await) and multiprocessing.
Demand from modern development practices: Libraries adapt to support modern software development workflows and architectural patterns.
Cloud computing and DevOps: Cloud providers offer Python SDKs (like Boto3 for AWS) to manage infrastructure, and libraries like Ansible and Fabric automate deployment and configuration management.
Microservices: Lightweight frameworks such as FastAPI and Flask are popular for building microservices due to their simplicity and asynchronous capabilities.
Active, open-source community: Python's evolution is heavily influenced by its massive and engaged open-source community. Developers contribute to improving and creating libraries, ensuring the ecosystem remains innovative and relevant to user needs. This collaboration also improves documentation and usability for newcomers.
Challenges in adapting libraries
Performance overhead: The trade-off between Python's simplicity and execution speed remains a core challenge, especially for high-performance computing. Solutions like Cython and PyPy help but introduce additional dependencies.
Dependency management: As projects grow and rely on many third-party libraries, managing dependencies and avoiding version conflicts becomes complex. Tools like virtual environments and dependency managers are crucial for mitigating these issues.
Security vulnerabilities: The reliance on a vast ecosystem of third-party, open-source libraries

means that security vulnerabilities can be introduced. Keeping dependencies updated and conducting security audits are necessary to manage this risk.
Backward compatibility: The significant transition from Python 2 to Python 3 highlighted the challenges of backward compatibility. The community provides tools and resources, but updates that require code migration can be disruptive.
The future of Python libraries
Looking forward, the evolution of Python

[olive sable]

[obsidian mantle]

They gave me books "how to use computer for moms" and i thought thats programing for most of my life i thought wtf is this

[hoary lion]

I vibe code for draining out OpenAI's GPU

[hollow spruce]

Link ?

[obsidian mantle]

I hope someday i become actual programmer

[olive sable]

your pfp truly embodies the concept of y=x

[hollow spruce]

https://share.google/aimode/ec0okgnMsXUjDCR3T

[obsidian mantle]

I add one stripe every year

Idk why
Count something

[midnight sigil]

TL;DR

[hollow spruce]

Life update

[midnight sigil]

AI Mode is unusable for your device or account.

[hollow spruce]

No it running lag less

Or fine

[midnight sigil]

they banned my region or smth

[hollow spruce]

?

[midnight sigil]

I read the stuff you sent

it's just yap yap and nothing evolutionary

AI tricked us

[hollow spruce]

Wait 2045

[midnight sigil]

I might die before 2045

[hollow spruce]

Sad

[midnight sigil]

let's see what happens in 2027 first

is it the end or the new born

[olive sable]

i have been released form the youtube A/B test

[rigid snow]

one of my ideas was to make a bot one-shot, make the prompt and all generation parameters available so it is completely reproducible, like a prompt engineering exercise

can i convince a model to make a bot good enough

type beat

[midnight sigil]

what if I ask chatgpt for weights on the neural network

[hollow spruce]

Vibe coding is worst i ask make a termux apk that usess and give su MODE it ask

Java and konling

[real sierra]

it's an array of Move structs, not Move struct *

you can just free(array)

the Move struct definition is there in the header so you can see it contains no pointers to data that needs to be freed

[midnight sigil]

"Generate me 65536 random fp4 floats" ahh moment

[trim valve]

free(array) is not exactly a 1:1 translation to rust but sure

or well it is but I still dislike doing it myself

[real sierra]

yeah my python wrapper had to make a binding to free

[trim valve]

diabolical

[hollow spruce]

Hmm

[real sierra]

I could add a function but it would literally just be a wrapper on free

an alias

[trim valve]

I would rather that than doing it myself ngl

[midnight sigil]

how do you "free" in rust

[real sierra]

crazy

ok I'll add that at some point

not now because I have classes

🥀 implementing free

rust moment

[trim valve]

idk if this is in any way correct (like idk if I'm actually allowed to dealloc stuff from the allocator shiro is using)

[hollow spruce]

Hybrid

[trim valve]

ig I could link in free but I'd like to avoid it

[real sierra]

you probably need to link in free

they almost certainly use different allocators

[trim valve]

meh fine gonna link libc

[midnight sigil]

[real sierra]

libc added

[midnight sigil]

can you inline C in rust

[hollow spruce]

Why u ADD rust in c ?

[real sierra]

don't look at me I didn't do it

[hollow spruce]

Ai 💀

[trim valve]

no

wait what do you mean by inline

[midnight sigil]

inline

[hollow spruce]

In line

[midnight sigil]

inline is inline

[hollow spruce]

Maybe be pipeline issue

[trim valve]

do you mean like ```rust
fn do_xyz() {
inline_c! {
/* c code */
}
}

or do you mean function inlining at compile time

[rigid snow]

c!("free({ptr})") imagine

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm

[trim valve]

that would be cursed

[hollow spruce]

No no no

[trim valve]

ok then

[midnight sigil]

yes

[trim valve]

surely this is fine

[trim valve]

the fuck do you mean yes

[midnight sigil]

hey it works

[trim valve]

this is an a or b question

[midnight sigil]

[midnight sigil]

it's a

I choose A

[rigid snow]

❌ wrong answer

[midnight sigil]

any language can inline at compile time smh

[hollow spruce]

This channel is crashing my phone
https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1067400152698077194

[rigid snow]

inline python into rust at compile time

[real sierra]

would it help to send you the python bindings

[trim valve]

https://crates.io/crates/inline-c

[olive sable]

checks out

[trim valve]

[rigid snow]

what the fuck whjy

[real sierra]

so you can have an example case of how to lay things out

[trim valve]

yeah potentially

[midnight sigil]

[hollow spruce]

I think make a function on C

Then use in rust or ect

[trim valve]

though that is a very cursed inline c crate

[hollow spruce]

True

[midnight sigil]

would work if you can compile py into llvm IR or smth like that

[real sierra]

@trim valve dmed

[rigid snow]

i don't understand why we need to inline anything but asm in the first place

[real sierra]

C agrees

that's why there's built in support for inlining asm

[midnight sigil]

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm some one call asm guy ?

[hollow spruce]

Need cpu instructions

Or GPU instructions

[rigid snow]

insert screenshot of me having ".jsx" at the end of my name

[real sierra]

is it hard to build js

or run I suppose

[midnight sigil]

get JIT'ed

[rigid snow]

i mean i don't think it is but then i see people like tsoding lose his shit at the js ecosystem

so idk really

[real sierra]

well for the dependencyless stuff I'd be asking for

[rigid snow]

you probably would be able to get away with just node bot.js and it can run typescript files now too i think

[real sierra]

[rigid snow]

node --experimental-strip-types bot.ts for ts

[real sierra]

is there really a reason to support ts

[midnight sigil]

nodejs

[real sierra]

that's extra tokens lost

I'll just let the user strip the types

[rigid snow]

true

[midnight sigil]

just write a binary

and do bindings in other languages

easier than to write apis for every language

[real sierra]

caibi

[midnight sigil]

or just have a central server for elo-based queueing

[trim valve]

[midnight sigil]

and do tcp requests

[real sierra]

surely bots can make network connections

my bot's strategy is to DDoS the server on the opponent's turn

[midnight sigil]

how do they queue without internet connection

[real sierra]

I build them locally

wait wdym queue

ur trolling me rn

[midnight sigil]

so you want to manually handle every competion between the bots wuh?

[real sierra]

the program I have lets me specify bots and how to start them

then I tell the program to do a tournament

and go to bed

it's that shrimple

but yes I intend to build every bot from source

[midnight sigil]

[midnight sigil]

now make another program for that program to queue up bot tournaments and calculate their elo loss/gain

[real sierra]

it does have a built in elo estimator but idk how it works

i don't need it to tell my bot sucks though

it's like

100-200 elo

it has no clue how to end a game

[trim valve]

I forgot rust doesn't have a built in random number generator

[midnight sigil]

I know why my discord is lagging now

[trim valve]

w/e I'll just include it for the basic bot whilst I test

[midnight sigil]

wtf is happening in the vc

[real sierra]

hide names

it's the canvas

[midnight sigil]

canvas

discord plz optimize your shit

[real sierra]

"FUTURE OF PROGRAMMING"

even C has rand() in the standard library

it's not hard to implement your own LCG tho

[trim valve]

i mean

there are lots of reasons you would pick one rng over another

[real sierra]

this isn't crypt dude

[noble zodiac]

rust had rng in its standard library but decided to split it off

[real sierra]

chess bot rng generator has very loose requirements

bad choice imo

putting more specific rng in a separate lib is one thing

but having some kind of basic rng in standard lib seems really useful

[rough bloom]

it would be bad if we didn't have cargo
rng is one cargo add rand away

[trim valve]

yeah

[real sierra]

yeah, would be a disaster for a use case where you couldn't import external dependencies or something

[trim valve]

I mean sure but where would you not be able to import external dependencies

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

(yes I know the competition exists but you're gonna need cargo regardless to get the api bindings in)

[real sierra]

sure I'll include the API bindings that's fine

[midnight sigil]

🔥 read /dev/random for rng

[real sierra]

and if you need ffi libs or something I'll install those

[trim valve]

congrats you've made your rng require an os

[real sierra]

but beyond what's required to bootstrap I don't intend to supply anyone extra libraries

[trim valve]

and thus unusable on no_std platforms

[midnight sigil]

just do ((4884373^x)<<12)/(++x) and normalize it or smth

random enough

[real sierra]

I'd just do (new random) = (old random)**2 % (large prime)

or something like that

[trim valve]

oooooooooooor

you could make the user decide what they want

[real sierra]

99% of time they just want a random looking number

just any number that isn't always the same

a counter would probably work for half of applications

[trim valve]

99% the time sure, but I don't see the issue with making them choose

[real sierra]

I do

why make 100% of people choose when only 1% need or want to

nothing wrong with a separate rand crate but everything wrong with removing a simple LCG from the standard libs

have your cake and eat it for the cost of like 50 bytes

[sage crag]

use std hasher

[real sierra]

actually

[trim valve]

oh true

[real sierra]

you might be able to get random numbers from my api

Zobrist hashes are based on random values

[sage crag]

ye pointer

[real sierra]

or that

[noble zodiac]

You need to add libc to interact with the C code anyway and at that point you can just use libc::rand

[trim valve]

I am sick of arguing, read https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1242-rust-lang-crates.md for some motivation behind why it was moved out

[real sierra]

I understand the reasoning but disagree

that's just my opinion

[trim valve]

entirely possible but libc is a dependency of the api, not one I want to pass onto the end user

[hollow spruce]

I was testing a google nano banana model

[trim valve]

fair enough, but you sound like a dick doing this

[real sierra]

sorry it was just amusing to me

I've never seen a lang with no rand in the stdlib

[hollow spruce]

Need help ?

[trim valve]

[hollow spruce]

Cpp module

[trim valve]

eitherway apologies if I got a bit mad

[sage crag]

ye design choice

to be honest why is hashmap and hasher in rust stdlib

hashbrown is the same

[real sierra]

why have a standard lib

remove it all

all crates

[trim valve]

konii you're not gonna believe this

[noble zodiac]

tbf, most language don't come with their own closely integrated package management system so they could just easily offload parts

[real sierra]

import your reserved keywords from crates

[sage crag]

ye ye it reexport

[trim valve]

why program

[real sierra]

that's true

[trim valve]

just go outside and herd sheep

[real sierra]

just have LLMs generate every possible program and then cargo install the one you need

vibe coding end game

[trim valve]

you can invent cargo-vibecode

[real sierra]

actually

I did see something kinda cool once

it was an AI tool that generated functions based on provided tests

[noble zodiac]

because we all know that tests coverage is always 100% and without fault

[real sierra]

that's what I like about it

it encourages you to write really good tests

because you don't have to write anything else

[noble zodiac]

odds are ppl who would let an llm write their code would also make it write the tests

feed the vibe ouroboros

[sage crag]

pixels

[faint sandal]

saved me 30 minutes or whatever of manually putting that in

[rigid snow]

const xdd = (function ehp(){})+/.:/; global[xdd[0]+xdd[9]+xdd[4]+xdd[3]+xdd[10]](xdd[10]+xdd[4]+xdd[4]+xdd[11]+xdd[18]+xdd[16]+xdd[16]+[127, 0, 0, 1].join(xdd[17]))

no strings btw

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

regex

[real sierra]

I more meant that the rules explicitly say no network connections

not that you should sneak them in

[rigid snow]

[sage crag]

it basically string

[faint sandal]

[real sierra]

W LLM

[hollow spruce]

Hmm whole schedule

Coding is nothing
Programming is art hmm

What about ai

[real sierra]

please do not bring the AI art discussion to vibe coding

last thing the world needs

[rigid snow]

programming = art
vibecoding = ai art

[trim valve]

oh god i forgot how much I dislike shared libraries

inb4 skill issue

[outer dock]

So i'm back after some thinking, so yall saying yall working without a degree at all right ? Here it is very different, since uni is free, everything is locket behind it, except like yes programming but there is no foundation to freelance with it or companies to hire u with skills (i did try few years prior after some http and css courses but no luck)

[real sierra]

I have an internship that I've done throughout university

it wasn't as hard to get into because it's naturally current students only

[faint sandal]

i have an english degree

[obsidian mantle]

the year when i finished university some events happened and it created lack of specialists, so they were hiring pretty much everyone who had slight idea of what he is doing.
so i have 100% interview winrate (1/1)

cant say im bad in my field, but i feel like im wasting time here
its all very narrow and plain, and gives no experience in real programming

wait, is server side ready? i want to check what get_legal_moves does

hmm
is it really impossible to make some embedded legal move generator
it will allow to analyze further moves

maybe some matrix shit?

it will have to have evaluator too but it doesnt have to be strong if you can just bruteforce a bunch of moves ahead

i was even thinking on neglecting some figures entirely for example do not process knights 🤔 is it really bad

still hasnt done much at all and idk how its going to work

maybe im missing some critical information about whats the problem on deep move processing? is it really that bad on time factor

[pseudo lynx]

my uni had a senior class for basically on-hands work with "local companies", local to the area but still some bigger names, on single semester projects. Never had the chance to do the final presentation in person since had to go remote so only the professor and Ta's, and the company person overseeing us saw it

[hollow spruce]

https://youtube.com/shorts/YycaX9JCEqM?si=cCP79q9Z41GinvuG

[real sierra]

it's not a server, it's an API
it doesn't make a request to the server for legal moves, it calculates locally

[burnt ridge]

Guys what is the best laptop for 500$ dollars

[sage crag]

dunno

[burnt ridge]

Koni long time no see!

[hollow spruce]

Best for what gaming,ai
,3d ,all ?

[sage crag]

maybe

[real sierra]

the number of legal moves in chess averages probably around 20 for any state you're likely to reach in a game

[burnt ridge]

Uh. Need it for coding and gaming toooo.

[burnt ridge]

Shiro cutie

[real sierra]

so there's about 20^5 ways the next 5 turns can play out, for example

[sage crag]

ye you got to

google it

until you find something

too many laptop exist

[burnt ridge]

[hoary lion]

true

[real sierra]

[hoary lion]

buy used one too

500$ is a tight budget

[sage crag]

for a laptop

especially in 2025

[burnt ridge]

Yeah but where the hell can i find those....

[hollow spruce]

Lenovo IdeaPad 3

Dell Latitude or Acer Aspire 5

[sage crag]

ai answer

[hollow spruce]

Yep

[sage crag]

useless

can just use ai themselves

reason come to programming channel is to get real answer

[hoary lion]

js go ebay and search for laptop

[sage crag]

ye

[hollow spruce]

I don't Care about hardware
I want coding that all
And any pc

[real sierra]

the slowest part of legal move checking is probably that a legal move cannot place or leave the king in check: this means you must identify pinned pieces, attacked squares near the king, and account for corner cases like en passant discovered attacks

the move generation by my API quickly generates all physically possible moves first ("pseudo legal"), before filtering for conditions regarding check and such

the pseudo legal moves are cached to speed up consecutive calls on the same board

[hoary lion]

any laptop without external graphics have reasonable price hto

[sage crag]

not about you

[rigid snow]

pen and paper ‼️

[rigid snow]

pen and paper not technical im band

[real sierra]

and when I say quickly I mean quickly

the pseudo legal move gen is wicked fast

bitboards are cracked

[hollow spruce]

Hmm

[real sierra]

e-pen, e-paper

[rigid snow]

[burnt ridge]

Shiro is intelligent

[real sierra]

I wouldn't go that far

[hollow spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/leonardo-dicaprio-clapping-clap-applause-amazing-gif-16078907558888063471

[hoary lion]

1$ in CAD laptop lmfao

no one bid

[hollow spruce]

🤫

[real sierra]

why even sell it at that point just throw it out

$1 auction is a waste of time

[hoary lion]

It is for engagement bait

which kinda works for GPU

i've seen 3090 starting from like 50 bucks all the way to tenfold+

[real sierra]

I am not engaged

[hoary lion]

it would be hilarious if someone just bought that with 10$ or something

[hollow spruce]

Dell Inspiron 15 (3535)
Acer Aspire 3 (A315-24P)
Asus TUF505DT-RB73

[hoary lion]

wghats this

[hollow spruce]

Chrome book is allowed?

Lenovo Flex 5i Chromebook Plus

[hoary lion]

get out 🗣️

we all hate chromebook

[real sierra]

Chromebook was a genius market play

they were the only ones that identified that consumer niche

it leveraged google services entirely, which made competitors unable to fight for that market share too

since they don't have the cloud infrastructure to make it work

[burnt ridge]

Google......

I don't really hate that company

[hoary lion]

*can't
at least for me

[hollow spruce]

It has 2 varient
Windows and Chrome OS
Lenovo Flex 5i Chromebook Plus

[real sierra]

call me fridge cuz I'm a chiller 🤙

[hoary lion]

wow

[faint sandal]

call me a fridge cuz I eat up all that food

[hollow spruce]

Deleted message
*Unc ahh
By @hoary lion

[hoary lion]

i thought it was too mean

:((

the ping was not necessary.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1232413936075280466.gif?size=48&quality=lossless&name=evilWYSI

[hollow spruce]

Bye I'm will back Tommorow
Today coding: ×
Lazy :✓

[real sierra]

I will code when I get home

must implement free wrapper

void chess_free_move_array(Move *moves) {
free(moves);
}

[faint sandal]

free moves

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1212937424062119967.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=nuhuh~1

[real sierra]

free wrapper needed for bindings

otherwise they need import libc

[olive sable]

Should i watch the dev stream or sleep?

Nah, just someone ping me a TLDR or something.

Goodnight

[hoary lion]

[gleaming ocean]

One Piece⬇️

[trim valve]

terrible rust bindings written, now to figure out how to test stuff

[olive sable]

nope, doesnt work on windows

im just going to customize their engine

anyways back to eep

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

how's it going

[trim valve]

it was crashing because I forgot to send a position command

[real sierra]

ah right

UCI is fun

[trim valve]

tbf

I just copied https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17003561/using-the-universal-chess-interface and expected it to work

[real sierra]

would suggest something like the Arena chess software

you can just add an executable as a bot

[trim valve]

yeah that uh

wasn't doing anything

[real sierra]

and it provides a GUI for playing chess against it, or having it okay against itself

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

oh

"works on my machine"

[fluid junco]

OH GOD THE CANVAS IS HOSTED ON VERCEL

[rigid snow]

the frontend is

[fluid junco]

CDawg is gonna owe a small country to Vercel

[rigid snow]

vercel doesn't do realtime

i can guarantee you the canvas is a dedicated server

[rough bloom]

ye, the API is somewhere else

unlike the frontend it's behind Cloudflare

[rigid snow]

ceo of vercel and cto of cloudflare had crazy twitter beef recently

[rough bloom]

I saw, yeah

the whole Cloudflare vs Vercel bot protection thing

[fluid junco]

cause of billing for traffic?

[rough bloom]

and issues with putting Vercel websites behind Cloudflare

[rigid snow]

tbf you shouldn't

[fluid junco]

why is vedal comparing server workload to ai...

[rigid snow]

ai inference is on gpu though

ram doesn't matter that much

which is exactly his point

[fluid junco]

eeeh, ollama can offload to ram I thought

Like, my tiny gpu CAN run a big model at like a token per minute

[rigid snow]

offloading to cpu = massive performance tradeoff

[nocturne olive]

Yeah it's VRAM that matters, and for speed, exclusively bandwidth

[real sierra]

offload to unpaid intern

[rigid snow]

well for llm workloads at least yes the memory bandwidth is the bottleneck

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

home soon then code

[trim valve]

why must you do this to me arena

[stark needle]

the new oceanstone google llm knows abt neuro

[real sierra]

it looks like it's working but arena stopped the bot?

[trim valve]

it stopped the bot because I told it to

[fluid junco]

I would expect initial GPT-4 to know about Neuro... It didn't?

[trim valve]

for whatever reason when its ran under arena it just, doesnt do anything?

[stark needle]

yes but some speculate it's gemini flash/the open source gemma model

it doesnt look like a gemini model to me

[trim valve]

ah wait

[fluid junco]

it's thinking?

[trim valve]

arena did not like a link to the bot

[trim valve]

this bot should not be thinking for any considerable amount of time

it just picks a random move

[stark needle]

also if it's gemma it'd be huge cause i use it as a test whether the llm was trained on a large amount of stuff and not just math/benchmaxxing

[rigid snow]

with how much disinformation on how neuro is built is out there on the internet i'd expect llms to spew complete garbage if asked about that

"neuro is a gpt-2 model trained on twitch chat from scratch, is completely ethical ai"

[fluid junco]

The point is to ask for some non-normie info to ensure that it was fed all the reddit posts

i think

[sage crag]

shimo

[real sierra]

arena seems to be communicating with the bot tho

[sage crag]

where are c bindings repo

[real sierra]

I not want public share the repo yet because there's still some changes to make

don't want anyone trying to make a bot to an API that might change significantly

only shared so far with people making bindings for other langs

[trim valve]

why is it not thinking when arena tells it to

I copied arena's commands 1:1 and it works

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

but alas the bot is built different

[real sierra]

are the commands from the bot showing up in the arena logs

like the UCI replies

[real sierra]

then it should start calculating after that

the go command is what unlocks the blocking semaphore on the API

[trim valve]

ugh wait

is it picking up my debug prints to stderr

[sage crag]

use eprintln

nevermind

[trim valve]

nop that did not fix it

[real sierra]

I'll do a regression test when I get home in case the go command somehow broke and I didn't know about it

what's your rust code look like

[sage crag]

rust code looks like

[sage crag]

fn main() -> Result<(), ()> {
  Ok(())
}

ye rust

[trim valve]

what the

[real sierra]

that looks like reasonable usage to me

[sage crag]

for _ in 0..500 {}

loop {}

not fix anything but

[real sierra]

oh

idk if it matters but

[sage crag]

shimo your bad code is infecting people

[real sierra]

you're meant to push a single move object in chess push

not a move array

[trim valve]

it does

[real sierra]

oh ok I'm just not used to rust

soz

[trim valve]

the .clone().into() is just a mild skill issue

I'm sure I can fix it down the line

[real sierra]

but yeah nothing wrong with that code then

that matches the example bots I wrote which was the intention I imagine

idk why arena doesn't receive the commands

[sage crag]

well, if i was debugging it the first thing i would do is remove the rng

and just push the first move

[trim valve]

see konii this is why you have a brain and I don't

[sage crag]

[fluid junco]

not like it block on rng

[sage crag]

ye but

read asm

and easier to read code

[fluid junco]

well yeah, minimal reproducible sample, yadayada

[sage crag]

then no need for silly

[real sierra]

that's so weird

[trim valve]

ok so uh

[real sierra]

the console output bred showed earlier shows the C API is getting the moves right and seems to be printing the submission commands

[trim valve]

it works when run under a debugger

[real sierra]

but arena just stops receiving them?

[fluid junco]

does it do that in other bindings?

[trim valve]

but not when ran normally

[real sierra]

the python binding works fine I think?

[trim valve]

which btw

are running the exact same files

[real sierra]

I should probably test it more

[real sierra]

race condition

[fluid junco]

NOWAY it's a race condition

[trim valve]

I'm not even stepping it or anything

it just works

[fluid junco]

debugging is just slow

[real sierra]

debugger naturally slows down execution

thanks to logging and callbacks everywhere

[trim valve]

mhmm

smh shiro

[real sierra]

million dollar question: whose code has the race condition

works on my pc

[sage crag]

shiro bindings dont make race conditions

[real sierra]

ill double check that anything accessing the internal API state needs the mutex first

[sage crag]

program in c

program in c

[fluid junco]

get mutexes that don't have values inside
thanks

[real sierra]

thank you for alpha testing bred

[sage crag]

i will write hblang bindings

[trim valve]

fwiw I'm stuck here

[fluid junco]

oooh it's deadlocking?

[trim valve]

wait no

I'm stupid

[sage crag]

[trim valve]

of course I'm stuck there

this is the one that's being debugged

and thus working

😭

[sage crag]

bred

[trim valve]

so I am supposed to be stuck there

[sage crag]

[trim valve]

[sage crag]

[rigid snow]

[sage crag]

🍬

[real sierra]

so is it my fault or

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

the only thing I can think is that some API function is accessing the internal state without the mutex

I swear I checked them all

[tender river]

it's called Mutex<()>

[trim valve]

if I could just get the debugger to get stuck

then I would tell you exactly what's broken

[tender river]

[sage crag]

Mutex<[u8; 0]>

Mutex<PhantomData<u8>>

[trim valve]

maybe if I just throw gdb at it

instead of codelldb or w/e I'm using

[tender river]

Mutex<Konii>

one value inhabiting the type

[sage crag]

Mutex<[(); 10000000000]>

[tender river]

[fluid junco]

have you looked at C or C++ mutexes? they don't have values, you just need to be a good boy and not use some variables that rely on that mutex

[sage crag]

i not zst

Mutex<!>

[real sierra]

I read maybe 10% of the mutex docs

[tender river]

type theory wise any type with one inhabitant is topologically equivalent

[real sierra]

oh.

that car beside me is sideways

that's not ideal

[fluid junco]

hate all the stuff behind sync primitives tbh, I swear most of the stuff overlaps one another in functionality. CondVars, Barriers, Mutexes

[sage crag]

but im not a multi-value type

[real sierra]

sideways as in

[tender river]

exactly

[trim valve]

that sounds nonideal

[tender river]

same topology as unit type

[real sierra]

laying on its door

[tender river]

[real sierra]

how is that even possible

[trim valve]

maybe its just a side sleeper

[sage crag]

i meant

[trim valve]

not for you to judge

[fluid junco]

eepy

[sage crag]

i am a multi-value type

[real sierra]

the fire department does not look impressed

[tender river]

[sage crag]

[fluid junco]

you should probably call someone

[sage crag]

not same

ye i have member values

[real sierra]

already done given how many emergency vehicles are here

parallel park if I've ever seen one

[tender river]

two states

sum type

[trim valve]

you could make them even less impressed

[tender river]

[trim valve]

just tell them they can't park there

[sage crag]

no

not konenum

[real sierra]

konii *

dereference

[fluid junco]

Imagine the space savings if everybody parked their cars standing up

[sage crag]

why postfix

[real sierra]

you are pointer

[sage crag]

rude

[real sierra]

actually

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

I guess you are physical you and konii is a pointer to you

"konii" is char * tho

so you're a char

[sage crag]

you bad

[trim valve]

it also works under gdb

[sage crag]

phrrr

[trim valve]

shrio do you want any executables / the code I'm running

[sage crag]

shrimp

[real sierra]

I'm not shrimp

i land creature

[stray dragon]

shampoo

[fluid junco]

konii can't be a reference because it can be reassigned

[trim valve]

actually would it be worth me testing the other two clients you have

[real sierra]

nah I'll find the bug

yeah go for it

[sage crag]

woodlouse

[real sierra]

would love to know if it's rust specific

[sage crag]

not reassignable sorry

[fluid junco]

Can you imagine

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

or if it's just "breaks on bred PC"

if it's "only works in VM" that's a win for me, no more ACE concerns

[rigid snow]

reincarnation

[fluid junco]

AN ABI INCOMPATABILITY

[sage crag]

@trim valve you are doing extern "C" properly right

[tender river]

you arent aliasing anything right

[real sierra]

what's an alias

[trim valve]

there's a very real chance I fucked something up

[sage crag]

send me the bindings

[tender river]

[sage crag]

ye

[fluid junco]

can you add sleep between api calls?

[real sierra]

I just don't understand

[fluid junco]

std::thread::sleep if I remember correctly

[real sierra]

if the API is printing to stdout

then how is it

not

like if I'm understanding the issue right

[trim valve]

it was stalling on get_legal_moves iirc

one moment

[real sierra]

that's not possible

nothing in there stalls

it doesn't need the API state

[fluid junco]

why would it work behind a debugger only then

[real sierra]

black magic idk

waiting to hear if the other implementations also break

[trim valve]

am working on it

debugging a rust build thing first

because python was mad at me

[real sierra]

no rush

[trim valve]

ok c works

probably my skill issue

[real sierra]

that or rust is faster

it could also be a threading thing technically

[rigid snow]

"blazingly fast" was true all along...

[fluid junco]

that depends on how C API is linked to rust. If it's an already optimized lib being linked it's just a differnece between compiling the lib

[sage crag]

i know how to test it

[sage crag]

would be true if LTO and inlining didnt exist

[real sierra]

i did add zobrist hashing...

[fluid junco]

it does those only if you do static linking and enable --release

[real sierra]

the hash factors are computed on API start

i should make sure anything relying on the hash starts the api

@trim valve chess_free_moves_array now exists

[sage crag]

what do?

[trim valve]

basically just a wrapper over free

for a specific type

[real sierra]

my favourite quirk about my own chess bot is that it will never accept draws

[trim valve]

shiwo

I may be losing it but my chessapi.c doesn't compile anymore

[real sierra]

[trim valve]

after pulling in your changes

[real sierra]

it compiles for me

what error are you getting

[trim valve]

https://pastes.dev/sC1XSBfEZ3

my only guess is a skill issue on my part

[real sierra]

my fault this time

i made a fix but then pushed the unfixed copy

sec

[trim valve]

[real sierra]

there