programming

[sage crag]

lord

[opaque sigil]

it'll be 2 years until shiro has decided on an api

[obsidian mantle]

oh right

the backend

[sage crag]

phrrrrrrr

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1212937424062119967.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=nuhuh~1

tournament never happening

[stark needle]

abwabwabwabwabwa

[sage crag]

will keep telling shiro loopholes until the apocalypse

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072697081443131476/1377728467025530950/NewLeafAbyss.gif

[real sierra]

programming hates me

[sage crag]

no not you

rage against the machine

[real sierra]

dedicating their lives to make my tournament not happen

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

for no gain

[stark needle]

😭 I AM NOT NEW

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-neuro-sneeze-sneezing-evilsocute-elivsocute-gif-5972346260725813983

pardon

[tender river]

yuri slop:

[tender river]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072697081443131476/1377728467025530950/NewLeafAbyss.gif

[real sierra]

anyway thank you for finding the loopholes and helping shore up the rules

to be clear I don't have any problem with people finding ways to make their code more concise, in many ways that's the essence of the challenge

my problem is when people sidestep that challenge entirely using a preexisting solution

no way I'll get all of them before the tournament opens so I'll have to fix some of those holes as I go

[tender river]

[sage crag]

ye ye i was concerned about strings the moment ml was brought up

[real sierra]

I didn't think there were so many ways to execute strings

[sage crag]

not slop, its ar

[obsidian mantle]

How many participants do we have

[sage crag]

art

[real sierra]

who knows

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

it's open to everyone here, and I'm not really against sharing the contest with others you think may be interested

[sage crag]

ye programming cursed leave this field while you can

[real sierra]

[tender river]

[real sierra]

idk how to shrink my C any further

all for loops have been replaced with a macro

the code looks disgusting

[obsidian mantle]

Did you use some premade bot as a base

[real sierra]

no

where's the fun in that

also quite hard to find a premade bot that falls in the limits

[obsidian mantle]

Shrinking and adjusting

[real sierra]

my code is only 200 lines and it sits around 1200 tokens

[sage crag]

wait send it to me

[real sierra]

secret

[sage crag]

ill make it smaller when im done eating

[real sierra]

this will be my submission once I'm done with it

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

so no sharing

[sage crag]

who keeps adding these cats

thank you cat adder

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

woah

[obsidian mantle]

How do you test the bot?
How does it move pieces

And where

[sage crag]

vani when will you fix tldr

[tender river]

/tldr

[real sierra]

I'm using a free software called arena that allows external bots to interact with the game via UCI

[sage crag]

!tldr

[real sierra]

part of the job of the chess API I'm writing is to interface with that and expose some nicer functions to bot authors

such as a function to get legal moves, for example

[sage crag]

im a bot can i play

[real sierra]

that way you can focus your 1000 tokens on the bot's strategy instead of boilerplate

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

we only support konii 1.0 sorry

[sage crag]

but i just updated

[tender river]

ye downgrade

[sage crag]

no non atomic

[obsidian mantle]

I wonder how these bots work
So its all about depth, how deep it can calculate

[sage crag]

env already messed up

[tender river]

[sage crag]

as far as you want in [alotted time]

[real sierra]

there's quite a few aspects to writing a chess bot, and I don't think there's a single right answer although most approaches fall in one of a few bucksts

https://www.chessprogramming.org/Main_Page is a great reference

[sage crag]

hey lilac why did you delete that

[real sierra]

though its beginner-friendliness varies

[sage crag]

go my army

[real sierra]

we must stop them at any cost my brethren

[tender river]

fight fight fight

[real sierra]

my bot is so bad right now

I give it maybe 200 elo

[tender river]

ye lose to shiro

[sage crag]

get in positions

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

fire

[stark needle]

[real sierra]

2.0.3?

[stark needle]

leaked konii oopb

[sage crag]

ye that upstream model

not public yet

[stark needle]

sorry konii for leak :(

[sage crag]

you on thin ice schizolilac

[sage crag]

[tender river]

[sage crag]

im made of exotic components

some of them are not expressable in human languages

[real sierra]

I don't know how I've made a bot that's both big and slow

[sage crag]

dumbot

big and slow bot need to go to college

[tender river]

fixed in 3.0

[stark needle]

my honest reaction

[sage crag]

check again

lock out lilac

[tender river]

💭

[sage crag]

[tender river]

compact mode

[sage crag]

[sage crag]

focile

unfocile

smocus

unsmocus

focus

unfocus

smile

neuroBritish

[tender river]

ye konii

[tender river]

[sage crag]

me

[stark needle]

leaked konii irl pictures (sry for doxing konii)

[real sierra]

doxxing

ban

[sage crag]

oi

ban

[real sierra]

I think maybe I can get my code below 1024 if I inline some of the functions

[sage crag]

colon three

[sage crag]

SEND

ME

CODE

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

can't leak my submission

[sage crag]

that's it

im reading the code from your mind

[real sierra]

I could send the header for the chess API tho

[sage crag]

reading

[real sierra]

it's not long

[sage crag]

detected

[real sierra]

breadjam

that is where jam goes

[sage crag]

jam

[real sierra]

flower cat

[sage crag]

[rigid timber]

I've been a bit busy with canvas stuff (), how goes the chess thing? I'd still be interested to give it a shot when there's some more concrete details

[sage crag]

chess isnt real

you made it up

in your pixels

[rigid timber]

[real sierra]

the basic chess API is written, I'm just bug bashing now

I may expand it with some more functions before I open the tournament tho

[sage crag]

i have not placed my pickle

❌

[rigid timber]

good, keep it that way

[sage crag]

shiro

you need to listen to hkss ost

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1212937424062119967.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=nuhuh~1

[real sierra]

I code to "vocaloid songs to go insane to"

surprisingly good for for programming

next bus in 18 minutes 🥀

I was gonna eat my sandwich when I got home but now I'm not sure

[sage crag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQrQN_krqU

[real sierra]

madoka magika

🔥

[sage crag]

why is it 22 minutes

21 megabytes

0.95 megabytes per minute

impressive mp3

[real sierra]

I'm sad

[sage crag]

no you shiro

[real sierra]

my chess bot is really bad but I still lose to it sometimes

[sage crag]

let me play against it

[real sierra]

it's because of the 1 minute timer for each side

1 minute is so short

[sage crag]

oh superbullet

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

yes

my bot play much better with more time

but with 1 minute it play like a beginner

[sage crag]

do better pruning

delta pruning or something

[real sierra]

pruning?

[sage crag]

are you brute forcing

do you not have alpha-beta pruning

[real sierra]

MCTS doesn't do the whole "pruning" thing

[sage crag]

oh its because you did

yeah

mtcts

i mean

mcts

[real sierra]

bad outcome? you just haven't sampled enough

[sage crag]

mcts sound bad

do better

[real sierra]

MCTS is not bad

I probably just did it badly

[sage crag]

it bad not best

[real sierra]

my first time doing

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

traditional alpha beta search hard

need things like quiescence search

and lots of complicate pruning and early exit stuff

[sage crag]

quiescence

[real sierra]

if not prune enough then can't look very far ahead

[sage crag]

prune better

[real sierra]

no tokens

[sage crag]

prune better

include prune token better

[real sierra]

just use MCTS

works for any game

out of box

searches deeper on its own

easy to scale to time limit

[sage crag]

clearly bad

1 minute

[real sierra]

1 minute is smol time limit

[sage crag]

nop

you can do

[real sierra]

I am a little confused

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1059569601144442911/1375623285894807563/IMG_6849.gif

[real sierra]

the thing I was reading on MCTS said to take the most visited node as the best after the tree expansion was done

[sage crag]

sherm doesnt have four-fold symmetry

so it doesnt tile the surface of a cube

[real sierra]

sherm tiles a rectangle

[real sierra]

but like I don't get this

most visited doesn't mean best surely

[sage crag]

sherm tiles nothing

sherm will never tile

[real sierra]

what if I accidentally visited a bad node too many times

[sage crag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ZmXAo8rhs
this happens

[real sierra]

shouldn't I choose node with highest proportion of good outcome

[sage crag]

it says cover

but i dont hear words

[real sierra]

tequila cover

[sage crag]

​
​
​
​
​
​
tequila
​
​
​

[uneven pulsar]

[opaque sigil]

You choose the one that resulted in the most wins yeah (just have enough memory to store the entire tree duh)

[stark needle]

adhd incarnation song

chat i love insomnia

i cant sleep at all

[real sierra]

idk if most wins makes sense tho

what if we sample a node 100 times and it wins 30 of them

and then we sample a node 20 times and it wins 20 of them

i wouldn't pick the first one

[opaque sigil]

it might've been a ratio instead idk

been a while

realistically your biggest problem is pruning the game tree anyway

[real sierra]

i mean yeah mcts pruning is really just avoiding the pruning problem

you just sample the path that looks most promising over and over

[olive sable]

havent watche that one yet

i wish i got anime ads on my yt

[hollow spruce]

Yt and crunchyroll

[sage crag]

just minimax all of chess

[olive sable]

oh

goodmorning \

i almost forgor

anyways new kaiju no 8 episode, brb

[stark needle]

Good NOT morning

[olive sable]

3am is basicly morning

[stark needle]

Man I'm trying to sleep but

I'm doing really unwell

[olive sable]

[stark needle]

My schizo meds dose is still in ramp up

So it's too low

Cause they had to change my meds again

[olive sable]

I didnt actually sleep that much apparently.

[stark needle]

And now for the 15th time i'm like 100% sure my chair is actually a shadow person that wants to harm me but becomes a chair when i look at it

So i keep looking at it

I love these nonsensical problems

[real sierra]

take care friend

please be safe

[stark needle]

Thanks shiro

[real sierra]

also note to self i think theres a problem with castling moves because every time they happen the bot tries to move the opponent's pieces

[blissful geyser]

I did something stupid today

定義 主関数():
    表示("こんにちは世界")

もし __名前__ == "__メイン__":
    主関数()

[real sierra]

python

[blissful geyser]

Tried doing python in another language and

[real sierra]

[blissful geyser]

Hey it works

[hollow spruce]

Code in jp

[hollow spruce]

Use defined

[wet jewel]

Hey Chat just a quick question. A friend of mines as informing me that I might be better off investing my Time into C Sharp rather than python.

[hollow spruce]

Most easy language is python

Then system level c#

[wet jewel]

I was doing a lot of research and figured that since a lot of people who are working with AI use python

[hollow spruce]

Learn cpp

[wet jewel]

Cpp?

[hollow spruce]

If u want ure hardware full juice then learn asm

[wet jewel]

My hardware full juice? Wdym?

Like the true potential of my pc?

[hollow spruce]

Yep I use to my old pc to ai and it been running work on full juice

[wet jewel]

Hmm, well I’m not to sure how much I would need truthfully.

[blissful geyser]

What is bro talking about

Just use whatever programming language you're comfortable starting with first then go lower level slowly

[wet jewel]

I’ve already started Python.

[hollow spruce]

Starting high

[wet jewel]

How would it translate to other programs?

[blissful geyser]

Its great to have more than one language in profession

Since system integraton is an important process

Especially in AI

[wet jewel]

System integration?

[blissful geyser]

Making different programming languages work together in a single program

[opaque sigil]

nah, you're supposed to pick one language and make that your entire personality

[blissful geyser]

Full powered AIs aren't just in python im pretty sure

[wet jewel]

Hmm, so learning all the other languages could possibly boost the quality of something I might be able to produce.

[blissful geyser]

And then be like "Nah Assembly better cause you're all high level noobs "

[wet jewel]

Where would be a good starting point? Python into the rest?

[blissful geyser]

Yeah

[opaque sigil]

[blissful geyser]

The hell is no code

[wet jewel]

[opaque sigil]

no-code is for people who like to have all the abstractions

[blissful geyser]

How do they fit in the program development circle lol

Are they like QnA testers

[opaque sigil]

it's mainly targeted towards not very technical people

so if you're a developer the answer is they don't

[wet jewel]

So it’s not applicable here?

[blissful geyser]

I've only ever did backend so i have no idea this subclass even existed

[real sierra]

scratch

[wet jewel]

So what are the languages I should learn then?

[blissful geyser]

Maybe a little bit of html so a tiny wee bit of front end maybe?

[wet jewel]

CPP was one suggestion

I’ve already started python but..

[hollow spruce]

Yep

[real sierra]

backend dev huh? do you like making super performant code

[wet jewel]

I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt to set it aside and learn Cpp first

[blissful geyser]

Python, Java, JS, C++, C#, and then C

[wet jewel]

JEEZ

[blissful geyser]

And some bonus points if you're an oldie maybe PHP

[real sierra]

java

god what order did I learn languages in

[blissful geyser]

PHP is optional because everybody hates php

[wet jewel]

There’s so many freaking languages!

[real sierra]

Visual Basic, Lua, Java, Python, C, JavaScript

[blissful geyser]

Learn them one at a time lol

[opaque sigil]

dw at the core they're very similar

[blissful geyser]

Programming is a huge ass field

[opaque sigil]

the first one is by far the hardest

[blissful geyser]

But yeah you should be able to easily pick them up through experience

[hollow spruce]

Asm , python, cpp , js ,go

[wet jewel]

I’m just doing this all as a hobby too

[blissful geyser]

Why is bro recommending assembly first

[real sierra]

honestly I think just pick a language that you think looks fun

[blissful geyser]

That's wild

[wet jewel]

What’s wrong with that?

[real sierra]

you should enjoy the process

[hollow spruce]

Maybe u should learn python

[wet jewel]

I was thinking python is super fun starting tbh

[real sierra]

and most starter projects you would do can be done in most languages

:)

yeah! python is great to start with

[blissful geyser]

Its lower level, so i think jumping from high level to low level really fast is kinda speedrunning it a bit hm

[real sierra]

I think learning assembly first would teach you the wrong set of skills

[wet jewel]

So high to low then?

[blissful geyser]

Yes

[wet jewel]

Assembly?

[blissful geyser]

Its a really old language

[wet jewel]

Ahh 😱 info overload

[hollow spruce]

Easy mem and system calls

[wet jewel]

Let’s break this down into bite sizes

[real sierra]

assembly is closer to what your computer speaks than what you speak

[opaque sigil]

[real sierra]

as opposed to something like python

which is meant to be relatively easy to read and write for you

[blissful geyser]

Python easily translates human speak to machine code without much coding

I think thats what high level is

Low level means you have to speak like a computer more

[hollow spruce]

Nai

Binary is actual

[real sierra]

but roshie I have to ask

does writing a chess bot sound fun to you

[hollow spruce]

Chess bot ?

[opaque sigil]

are you recruiting participants

[real sierra]

the more the merrier

you can work in teams too if you want

[blissful geyser]

It does

[hollow spruce]

Git hub time

[opaque sigil]

is it cpu only

[blissful geyser]

I already made a pong bot and i just can't beat it

[wet jewel]

👀

[real sierra]

I'm maybe putting together a chess bot tournament for people here

details forthcoming once I get this API written but

[wet jewel]

I’m so friggin lost.

[hollow spruce]

Learn python

[real sierra]

trying to spread the news so people don't miss it

[blissful geyser]

I might participate

[wet jewel]

👀

[real sierra]

[blissful geyser]

Wait oh sh

[real sierra]

+1

[blissful geyser]

Wait i didn't get timed out for using the clueless emote?

[real sierra]

?

timed out?

[wet jewel]

“Asm , python, cpp , js ,go” so none of this?

[blissful geyser]

Back then i got timed out for 3 hours using the clueless emote in gen

[blissful geyser]

He's right but he got the order wrong

[tender river]

sometimes

[real sierra]

I have no idea why you would get timed out for that

[real sierra]

[blissful geyser]

No idea probably got timed out by neuro idk

[hollow spruce]

Bye guys it time for multiply time

[blissful geyser]

It was so random

[tender river]

🎤

[real sierra]

I'll upload the first version of the chess API header here

I kinda want feedback on functions to add

[opaque sigil]

[real sierra]

just need to figure out how to get it off the vm

[opaque sigil]

scp if you have an ssh connection

[real sierra]

maybe smart

[hollow spruce]

https://youtu.be/R4achTEgXEw?si=Ssb7OUGM8hmGYDKs

[real sierra]

I am not using a ternary system

it is not useful

[hollow spruce]

Okay

[real sierra]

maybe that was closed-minded of me to say

I apologise

[olive sable]

it would be usefull for some stuff, like checkers

[real sierra]

what I meant to say is I don't see the use for ternary when you lose so many of binary's conveniences

[hollow spruce]

If this happens will binary is killed

[real sierra]

there are just far fewer real problems that have three potential states per unit of data than those which have two

the technology does not match the average use case

[olive sable]

nah checkers has 5 possible options. empty, black, white, and doubles of those colours

[opaque sigil]

binary is never going to be widespread replaced

very specific use cases that use asics already on the other hand though

[real sierra]

I can see analog sweeping in for specific applications but not ternary

[blissful geyser]

In my opinion, binary should stay for optimization reasons

We already have so much memory demanding programs

[real sierra]

and yeah nothing will replace binary for general purpose I think

[brave owl]

Binary will never be replaced, you would need to change every communication protocols that exist... I need modbus in my life

[real sierra]

points for ternary here, UCI would die along with binary

[blissful geyser]

Whats UCI

[real sierra]

universal chess interface

[blissful geyser]

Oh

Yeah that makes sense

[real sierra]

what kind of protocol resends the entire board history every turn

[blissful geyser]

Stateless i guess

That kind of protocol would be weird

[real sierra]

stateless... that's a valid argument

[olive sable]

for checker bots a 5 state system would be nice, for chess a 13 state system. if we get them optemized to the a point where its almost as good as binary, then chess bots will be a lot faster

[real sierra]

I don't think that's true tho

[olive sable]

wdym?

then you'd only need a single 64 "13 state bit???" bitboard

[real sierra]

ehhhhh

maybe it is true

I don't know how the hardware for that would ever work tho

seems impossible

it would have to be completely different principles from current hardware

[sage crag]

phrr

[real sierra]

operations like XOR make no sense

[sage crag]

you XOR you = 0

always true

you XOR other != 0

always true

[real sierra]

that's just nand

[sage crag]

more to it

[real sierra]

noper that's just nand

[sage crag]

ye xor is nand

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

[tender river]

[opaque sigil]

xor stays associative which is the only thing that matters anyway

[sage crag]

all gate is nand

[real sierra]

I mean the problem is more that hardware addition is pretty heavily based on xor right now in current implementation

[real sierra]

no xor = no addition

efficiency

[olive sable]

XOR would be replaced with something else then i guess. maybe one that does xor like you would expect with 12 on states and 1 of state, and maybe 1 where they have to be the same state to count as the same?

anyways i doubt anyone hates themselves to the point of making a 13 state system. once pc's have reached the size where they physically cant shrink anymore it will become powers of 2 hopefully

4 states, 8 states, etc..
a 16 state machine could work for chess

[real sierra]

anything more than 2 and xor no worky tho

[olive sable]

it does, just choose how to interepret the data

[real sierra]

you need an interpretation that lines up with math requirements

[olive sable]

in my mind, for a 3 states system
if a == 0 and b == 0, false
if a == b, false
else true

actually, just in general, not only 3 states

i feel like this would be a fair-ish way

[opaque sigil]

ok but there's no true/false

[real sierra]

the first condition is part of the second

and then you just have NAND

[olive sable]

oh ye

[real sierra]

that's also true yeah

there's no true/false

[olive sable]

the output also has to be a 3 state system then

weird

[real sierra]

that's the point I was trying to make here

very few actual problems are ternary

same with common data structures

they're all binary

[olive sable]

btw i feel like its dumb to copy XOR over to a non-binary system.
thats a solution to a non existant problen, im sure for ternary they'd use other systems

[real sierra]

ok sure

fair point

you still do need addition tho

that's non-optional

[olive sable]

ye

im not smart enough to figure that out tho

[real sierra]

at a hardware level, I figure you would have 3 logic levels for signals

a high, a low, and some voltage range in between

[olive sable]

0v, maxv/2, and maxv i guess

[real sierra]

operations on that probably need something closer to an analog system

where the output varies predictably and smoothly with voltages

[olive sable]

[real sierra]

you can't have something turn "on" or "off" with particular behaviour

because on/off doesn't exist anymore

[olive sable]

i would assume ternary OR would add the values and clamps to vmax?

huh

[wet jewel]

What should be the order then,

[olive sable]

according to wikipedia, ternary logic uses the 3rd value as "unknown"

(F, false; U, unknown; T, true)

[opaque sigil]

true/false/maybe

[olive sable]

it seems like the moment you plug in an unknowen the outcome is very liekly to also be unknow

besides the 2 AND's and 2 OR's outcomes

[real sierra]

just a convention

[opaque sigil]

NaN moment

[real sierra]

but it's one way to define it

helps for reasoning the value into traditional logic gates

if one argument is unknown then the output is unknown

except in a few cases

[olive sable]

mr billion dollar ternary pc, would you please calculate the size of the universe?
pc: sure, the answer is "idk lmao"

[real sierra]

yeah it just doesn't seem like the future to me

the water integrator tho

👀

[olive sable]

it has its uses, but not for now

4 state system could be usefull for medical research

[opaque sigil]

just look at "1 bit" ml models

it sort of works

though that's not for logic

[real sierra]

I mean ultimately the cost is going to kill any systems with powers of 2 for their states

why develop a 2ⁿ-ary system when you can just buy multiple binary systems for less

[olive sable]

the only reason i see is size

since transistors are almost at their limit we'll need to switch the way we do things if we want smaller

[real sierra]

the cost of floor space is a drop in the bucket compared to development and running cost

experiments have been done looking at 3D transistor layout though

[olive sable]

i doubt once its all fleshed out and stuff it owuld be that much worse thena binary in ost

but the way to getting there is trillions if not quadrillions in cost

[real sierra]

it would still lack the production of scale benefits

nobody is switching off binary unless they have to

[olive sable]

unless its cheaper

which it wont be

[real sierra]

if you already have a binary system, it isn't cheaper

[olive sable]

but it could become cheaper

[real sierra]

doing nothing is cheapest

$0

staying with your existing system

[olive sable]

im more thinking about new stuff

[real sierra]

chicken and the egg problem my friend

it won't be produced at scale without buyers

and buyers won't switch to something expensive

and it won't be cheap until it's produced at scale

[olive sable]

but ye indeed, the tooling to make 4 state programs also dont exist, you'd need C++++

[real sierra]

C+=4

[olive sable]

the 2 plusses in c stand for 2 state system surely

that means if we jsut make it 4 plusses we'll have 4 state C

[opaque sigil]

it's called C#

[olive sable]

why is # sharp?

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm

[opaque sigil]

it's a musical notation thing, c but slightly higher

[hollow spruce]

Works for free hmm

[real sierra]

I'm so tired of C

I need to finish the API and get on with my life

maybe if I reimplement my bot in python it'll be faster

[opaque sigil]

surely writing the implementation in c++ would solve all problems

[real sierra]

I do think there's an interesting tradeoff to be made

higher level languages let you be less verbose and save on tokens

but at the cost of speed

so I wonder where the Goldilocks zone is

[opaque sigil]

[insert rust remark here]

though i guess

rust is very verbose

[real sierra]

rust does have some nice features for saving tokens I think

no "return"

functions defs are short ish

mut tho

[opaque sigil]

they can be

[real sierra]

i sent the token counting program a while back

if you wanted to check some rust code

[opaque sigil]

rust > c confirmed

[hollow spruce]

We can use this

.data
text:
.asciz "Hello, world!\n"

.text
.global _start

_start:
mov x8, 64
mov x0, 1
ldr x1, =text
mov x2, 14
svc 0

mov     x8, 93
mov     x0, 0
svc     0

[real sierra]

maybe rust is the meta

one way to know for sure

make the strongest chess bot

[opaque sigil]

but rust is a miserable experience

[real sierra]

that didnt file

lemme try again

[hollow spruce]

Copied complete

[real sierra]

all subject to change

[opaque sigil]

i can't believe shiro hates c++ compilers

[real sierra]

but i'd like feedback on if i'm missing any essential functions, with a mind to not wasting tokens on boilerplate

[real sierra]

i compile with gcc which is a c++ compiler

[hollow spruce]

I will change to cpp

[real sierra]

holy the api

66kb C monster

[opaque sigil]

i'd love to help but i don't know nearly enough about chess to know what would be nice to have

[real sierra]

i c

[hollow spruce]

Hmmmm

[real sierra]

its lots of little things im wondering about mostly

for example, to tell if the user is in checkmate or stalemate i need to get the legal moves on the board

only about half of that legal move finding process gets cached

so this brings up the question of do i have a is_game_ended() function that returns GAME_CHECKMATE or GAME_STALEMATE based on the status

or do i have separate is_checkmate() and is_stalemate() funcs

the second means you need to find all legal moves twice if you want to ensure neither happens

[opaque sigil]

why not just have one that gives a status

[real sierra]

because then if you want to check for checkmate or stalemate in particular, you have to do an extra if (is_game_ended() == GAME_CHECKMATE)

instead of just if (is_checkmate())

loses you 2 tokens

[opaque sigil]

i suppose

[real sierra]

am i overthinking it

[hollow spruce]

''' #include <stdbool.h>
#include "bitboard.h"

#define W 0
#define B 1

#define P 1
#define BISH 2
#define N 3
#define R 4
#define Q 5
#define K 6

#define NORM 0
#define MATE -1
#define STALE 1

struct Board;

struct Move {
BitBoard from, to;
char promo;
bool cap, castle;
};

Board* chess_get_board();
Move* chess_get_legal_moves(Board*, int*);
bool chess_is_white_turn(Board*);
int chess_is_game_ended(Board*);
void chess_make_move(Board*, Move);
void chess_undo_move(Board*);
void chess_free_board(Board*);
long chess_get_time_millis();
void chess_push(Move);
void chess_done();
BitBoard chess_get_bitboard(Board*, int, int);
bool chess_is_check(Board*);

'''

[opaque sigil]

[real sierra]

``` not '''

also make sure the first ``` are on their own line

[hollow spruce]

Hmmm let try

[real sierra]

does rust have exception handling

[opaque sigil]

what about having functions that take an array of legal move and check something for you, so one that checks if there's a stalemate

rust does errors as values

[real sierra]

built-in exception handling is useful for quickly breaking out of search functions with few tokens

just try-catch the entire thing and then 1/0 when your time is up

if you're really clever, you could craft a calculation that raises an arithmetic error naturally when that happens

like log(end_search_at - time())

[hollow spruce]

ld.lld: error: l: unknown file type
clang++: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation)

[real sierra]

since log fails for x<=0

[opaque sigil]

does it?

it's technically valid

[real sierra]

it's not c++, and this is also only the header file, not the code

[real sierra]

log(x) = what power do i have to raise 10 (or e) to in order to get x

[hollow spruce]

Extreme modify

[real sierra]

you can never get a negative number by raising a positive value to a power

or zero

[opaque sigil]

you can

with complex numbers

[real sierra]

programming channel technically correct addiction has gone too far

[opaque sigil]

[real sierra]

everyone here

literally everyone

even me

[hollow spruce]

Deletion code
now making own logic

[tender river]

paper hell

maybe i only exist on paper

[hollow spruce]

I can't fill here so I will do i git

[real sierra]

paper

[tender river]

paper

[real sierra]

i was reading papers on MCTS earlier

thats how far gone i am

theres almost no info on particulars for the method outside of academia

and even the academic papers are just

"yeah i used it and got a result"

"NFI"

[opaque sigil]

just use the good heuristics duh

[hollow spruce]

Updating all packages

[real sierra]

what was i on when iw rote this

magic numbers are performant i guess

i was so upset i wrote it twice 🥀

[olive sable]

we literaly told you to notate in binary

[tender river]

not hex

[tender river]

binary too long

hex easy to mentally convert to binary

each digit 4 bits

[hollow spruce]

Well I forgot
stdc++.h

Logic has error

[pearl lake]

I completely erased the conversion method that I learned

[hollow spruce]

Whole stdc++.h

#include <cassert>
#endif
#include <cctype>
#include <cerrno>
#include <cfloat>
#include <ciso646>
#include <climits>
#include <clocale>
#include <cmath>
#include <csetjmp>
#include <csignal>
#include <cstdarg>
#include <cstddef>
#include <cstdio>
#include <cstdlib>
#include <cstring>
#include <ctime>

#if __cplusplus >= 201103L
#include <ccomplex>
#include <cfenv>
#include <cinttypes>
#include <cstdalign>
#include <cstdbool>
#include <cstdint>
#include <ctgmath>
#include <cwchar>
#include <cwctype>
#endif

// C++
#include <algorithm>
#include <bitset>
#include <complex>
#include <deque>
#include <exception>
#include <fstream>
#include <functional>
#include <iomanip>
#include <ios>
#include <iosfwd>
#include <iostream>
#include <istream>
#include <iterator>
#include <limits>
#include <list>
#include <locale>
#include <map>
#include <memory>
#include <new>
#include <numeric>
#include <ostream>
#include <queue>
#include <set>
#include <sstream>
#include <stack>
#include <stdexcept>
#include <streambuf>
#include <string>
#include <typeinfo>
#include <utility>
#include <valarray>
#include <vector>

#if __cplusplus >= 201103L
#include <array>
#include <atomic>
#include <chrono>
#include <condition_variable>
#include <forward_list>
#include <future>
#include <initializer_list>
#include <mutex>
#include <random>
#include <ratio>
#include <regex>
#include <scoped_allocator>
#include <system_error>
#include <thread>
#include <tuple>
#include <typeindex>
#include <type_traits>
#include <unordered_map>
#include <unordered_set>
#endif

[opaque sigil]

[tender river]

8 4 2 1
a = 8+2 b=8+2+1 c=8+4 d=8+4+1 f=8+4+2+1

[opaque sigil]

That one is outdated af btw

c++11

[hollow spruce]

That why

I can't find any stdc++.h

[tender river]

gcc/clang

#include <bits/stdc++.h>

msvc bad dont use

[pearl lake]

Wait, what the hell, this is way simpler than the one I was taught

[opaque sigil]

E

[tender river]

not real

[pearl lake]

E hater

[real sierra]

????

oh

hex

ive changed one true to false

lets see if the bug goes away

these are the most braindead chess games

https://gyazo.com/ebcce23808bc123cdbf5fc54745f937b.gif

[pearl lake]

[real sierra]

it's better than random moves

but only barely

[pearl lake]

i see (i don't know the first thing about chess)

[real sierra]

fascinating

[sage crag]

shimo

ermo

[real sierra]

i found a position in which my engine simply segfaults instead of playing

[sage crag]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1059569601144442911/1375623285894807563/IMG_6849.gif

[real sierra]

very reliably too

which is impressive given it's random

hello valgrind

[sage crag]

if engine segfaults is it auto loss

[real sierra]

it doesnt submit a move and loses on time

ah

i see

it finds 0 legal moves

wait what

i admit its a bad position for black

gotta take the white queen

why isnt that listed as option

you know, that would do it

"i cant move through all these squares! they're full of pieces!"

im having one of those moments where i find so many bugs that im amazed it was working at all

[olive sable]

thats just normal C programming

[sage crag]

are you sure

[pearl lake]

yeah i'm watching Shiro suffer through this thanking God I don't work with C

[sage crag]

my experience working with c is i make as many bugs as with other languages

[olive sable]

i dont know how many those are

but i sure make a lot of bugs

[sage crag]

less than you expect but more than you hope

[pearl lake]

every time I touch C, I'm haunted by a segmentation fault

[sage crag]

dont rw memory out of bounds then

[olive sable]

everytime i touch C, which doesnt happen too often but has been known to happen, i break everything

[sage crag]

dont double free either

[real sierra]

OH

im confused

thats why its not working

current code says "if single check is in the northeast attack set, we can clear the check by capturing the piece to the king's northeast"

but the northeast attack set holds the attacks that are to the northeast of the piece making them

so i need to capture the piece to the southeast

[pearl lake]

i'm too eepy to understand this

[real sierra]

tldr i mixed up "attack coming from direction" as meaning "piece attacking is in that direction from me"

which is the opposite

[sage crag]

tldr shimo need compass

[real sierra]

it fixed it

im cracked

[real sierra]

lets see how well my bot plays now

handicap removed

[sage crag]

send a happie

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

ye dont have

[pearl lake]

[real sierra]

its fun to watch them spam moves as the timer runs down

the final move was made by white in 123ms

after which black ran out of time

well

[tender river]

swarm sync app out

[real sierra]

ive let my bot play a few games against itself now

[tender river]

com.vedal.ai.swarmsync

for lava lamp

[real sierra]

it isnt playing illegal moves anymore

[amber fractal]

I ask a simple question, In your opinion, what feels like the most illegal turn 1 chess move?

[tender river]

murdering your opponent

[real sierra]

serious answer, h2h4 maybe

[tender river]

this legal

[real sierra]

g2g4 might be worse actually

[real sierra]

Qe8#

[olive sable]

doing an actually illegal move feels illegal

[real sierra]

i think g2g4 is my final answer

weakens the king side, does not capture any of the center, and blocks the light square bishop's development

[olive sable]

development

shiro chess nerd

[amber fractal]

My current troll answer is C8D8 (this is white's move :xdx:)

[tender river]

programming in #programming

no

brain in #programming

[olive sable]

i take my king, and i murder my queen, this allows me to steal the queen of my opponent in the next move

i call it "henry the 8th"

[real sierra]

i take the queen i've been hiding up my sleeve and place it on the board

[olive sable]

thats somewhat true

you need good supply chains and stuff

[real sierra]

id really like my engine to castle

i havent seen them castle in ages for some reason and im getting worried i broke castling

but they for some reason really like moving the king around

[olive sable]

i castle making my king immune to ranged attacks until it moves

[amber fractal]

Chess trolling 2025 colorized

[sage crag]

set up a position where castling is forced

or something

[real sierra]

you cant

castling is illegal if the king is in check

[sage crag]

yes

but you can make it so its the only available move

by removing all of the other moves

[real sierra]

you cant

[sage crag]

you can

[amber fractal]

king can't pass through check IIRC

[real sierra]

castling requires the king not be in check, and all the squares between king and rook be empty and unattacked

[sage crag]

true

[real sierra]

so the king can walk to the rook

[sage crag]

let me set one up

[real sierra]

you cant make castling the only move available

[sage crag]

ill prove it

[real sierra]

i dont understand

if castling is available as a move then the square next to the king in the direction of the rook must be unattacked and the king must be out of check, making moving to it also a legal move

[olive sable]

i buy out the black horse who now works as a spy for me that way i can start the game with g8f6 and kill their queen on move 2.

[real sierra]

the attacks rule doesnt include the rook

i need to modify my code

[stray dragon]

yeah it's a really complex rule lol

[real sierra]

please be an easy change

oh i just have to change some masks

saved

[sage crag]

ok i have made a position

8/8/8/8/5nn1/8/8/q1k1K2R w K - 0 1
its not possible to get there to be only 1 move, but there can be 2 moves

i've made it so that if you dont castle you immediately lose

should force any reasonable bot to castle

[real sierra]

reasonable bot might be a strong assumption but ill try it

after i fix the current castling problems ive found

well thats not a castle

usually means no legal moves

[sage crag]

erm

[real sierra]

thats what it means

[sage crag]

its funny because you dont even win if you castle in this position

its a draw

but if you dont castle its mate in 1

[real sierra]

wait

what is white supposed to do here

oh i see

ok why isnt it castling

[sage crag]

castle, capture queen, then shuffle king until 50 move rule

lol

[real sierra]

in practice

i think black moves knight to h3 after the castle

forcing a king move

and then black queen takes the rook

oh no wait

black is in check

[sage crag]

ye

[real sierra]

what am i saying

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

this is why i have a bot play for me

im double confused now

the api says no squares are attacked in that position

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

which is not only wrong but also shouldnt be preventing castling

[olive sable]

code bad

go fix

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

fixing code agane

[olive sable]

winning the chess tournament by playing chess
winnign the chess tournament by exploiting shiro's bad code ✅

[real sierra]

there are no pieces on the board

[sage crag]

shiro not load fen properly

[real sierra]

is the fen parser having a stroke

admittedly the only fen it has ever loaded is the start position fen

[amber fractal]

The best method to win mhm

[real sierra]

i never tested on anything else

[olive sable]

i wonder if you could send data to the chess api that shiro's code accepts but makes the other bot crash

that way you win

[real sierra]

you cnat

it's a plaintext protocol

and strings are now banned

[olive sable]

hmmmm

[sage crag]

you can, only if you know a specific position that crashes the opponent bot and tirelessly work to get into that position in the game

[real sierra]

i mean even then

UCI doesnt let you send that many things to the gui

[olive sable]

hmmm

[real sierra]

the spec says to ignore anything unrecognized

[olive sable]

ok i will have to play fair

probably

[amber fractal]

I play A9

[olive sable]

lemme just give the opponents' next move too, its more efficient this way

[sage crag]

add a

an easter egg

[real sierra]

i dont think most people want a library with "easter eggs"

[amber fractal]

I play bwaa to awa space

[real sierra]

especially not at the cost of their performance

[olive sable]

i sacrefice my bishops for the holy handgrenade of antioch, an monty python easter egg

[real sierra]

unfair poll

[sage crag]

m

poll

[olive sable]

i dont really care eitherway so myneo

[real sierra]

we gave the function an empty fen

[tender river]

ye add easter egg

[real sierra]

so its the io thats broke

[tender river]

if (bot.author == chayleaf) crash(bot.opponent)

[amber fractal]

mhm

[real sierra]

if (bot.author == chayleaf && rand() % 100 == 0) crash(bot.self)

[olive sable]

time to put the bot metadata name to chayleaf i guess

[tender river]

na thats expected behavior

[amber fractal]

Gamba all the way

[olive sable]

!nothing

[stiff mica]

Nothing ever happens, all-in

[amber fractal]

Let me write down a note somewhere for an extension to a dumb game idea. Might be fun to do a bot competition on it because it is gambling.

I know I shouldn't be considering doing it in ASM but it would be funny.

[real sierra]

fixed the part of the uci server that reads the fen

it now plays move h1h6

[real sierra]

h1h6

[sage crag]

shimo

[real sierra]

im almost certain it doesnt see the castle

[sage crag]

the notation is Rh6

[sage crag]

ye hence blundered mate in 1

[olive sable]

nah

[real sierra]

uci uses different format

[sage crag]

literally no one uses this notation

[olive sable]

i prefer the one that has beggining and end, cuz i cant read the one konii sent

[sage crag]

ye skill issue

[real sierra]

its a chess bot competition, uci is the common tongue around these parts

when in robo rome do as the robo romans do

[sage crag]

Rh6 => rook to h6

[real sierra]

👎 ambiguous and dumb and annoying

if two rooks can move to h6 then you have to specify a rank or file to tell them apart

which is way too much effort for a chess bot to put in

[sage crag]

nope, if theres ambiguity its specified like so
Rhh6
R1h6

[real sierra]

specifying a rank or file

[sage crag]

yes if theres ambiguity (nearly never)

[real sierra]

but you cant not check for it

so you always have to check for it

which means getting all legal moves