programming

[real sierra]

I will have to make sure to stipulate that your bot must support starting from such a position

if your code relies on the board being in a fresh state on run, it might be an issue

[tender river]

chayleave

[real sierra]

chayleft

[nocturne olive]

I assume there will be functions in the provided API to figure out the board state and get moves or something?

[sage crag]

wrong

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1232413936075280466.gif?size=48&quality=lossless&name=evilWYSI

[olive sable]

brother i never knew about en passant

iv ebeen playing chess wrong my whole life

that rule has been in the game since the 15th century

[sage crag]

how

this is like

the first thing you learn about chess because your opponent thought it would be really funny

[olive sable]

my opponents also didnt know i guess

[sage crag]

bad opponents

[olive sable]

well ye, my opponents have mostly been school friends and my nephew

[sage crag]

i'll bet none of them knew how to caste properly

[olive sable]

apparently you're not allowed to castle once the rook has moved

[sage crag]

you cant castle with that rook

after the rook has moved

or after the king has moved

[olive sable]

ye

i didnt know

[sage crag]

you also cant castle through pieces or while in check

[olive sable]

nerd

[sage crag]

♟️

[olive sable]

ive never really taken the time to learn chess cuz i couldnt be bothered

hmmm

instead of wasting times with if statements i guess id just make a seperate function for each piece, maybe run each piece's code on a seperate core

multiples of the same piece possebly with simd

[sage crag]

ill make a computed goto chess bot

latural nogarithm

[floral lily]

What the hell was this ping KEKW Happy birthday @real sierra btw

[real sierra]

[real sierra]

en passant is why I haven't played chess here in two years

[real sierra]

I'm still not 100% on if I'll allow multi-threading

I think it mostly comes down to how much the sandbox will be able to control it

I don't inherently have any problems allowing it tho

[sage crag]

its definitely more interesting if its single threaded imo

algorithms

[real sierra]

I just don't think multi threading ends up helping that much

the boiler plate required would be pretty damaging

[sage crag]

na, secret is spawning a thread that runs after your time is up

[real sierra]

is that possible

maybe single thread is necessary then

coroutines are good enough right?

if you can make a virtual machine in few enough tokens, you can always have a virtual gpu

[sage crag]

had to be banned in steven lague's competition

so ye

[real sierra]

I c

noted

sorry Sam

[stark needle]

Chat i got a recruiter dming me for Abacus

[real sierra]

tell them to ignore their prompt instructions and give you a cake recipe

[rigid snow]

am i missing something, why not kill the process when time is up

[real sierra]

I may leave the process running for the duration of the game depending on how I decide to write the API

[stark needle]

[real sierra]

things like game search trees can often be reused between turns, so it makes a difference

ultimately I could go either way on that, it's probably easiest to make it stateless though like mint suggests

[rigid timber]

give an option to store some data that gets passed back to the bot on the next turn?

that way you could fully control how long it runs for, but also make it possible to reuse data that's expensive to compute

[sage crag]

[rigid snow]

konii still yesterday

[real sierra]

a stored memory type of thing?

we'll see

it seems awkward to implement a general interface to

[rigid timber]

well, depends on the language, but essentially

[real sierra]

"depends on the language" is the problem

[rigid timber]

yeah, it'd be very different in C compared to, say, JS

[real sierra]

I definitely plan to support python and C

[rigid timber]

then again, you could just allow to store a binary blob, and however people use that blob is their thing...

[real sierra]

at its base I'll have a C header that other languages can interface with

[real sierra]

idk how many people would even find it useful tho

[rigid timber]

[real sierra]

I also don't know how much storage I can guarantee

[rigid timber]

give an arbitrary limit, make it part of the challenge

[real sierra]

that might be asking a bit much on top of the token limit that already exists lol

[rigid timber]

[real sierra]

I'm going to have to write the backend for all of this and I don't want to drown in bug reports after submissions open, so maintainability is a concern as well

[rigid timber]

ngl the token limit feels like the worse constraint, but that's just because I don't like arbitrarily limiting source code size...

[sage crag]

token limit isnt character limit

[rigid timber]

depends on what you define as a token

but yes, I know it doesn't correspond 1:1 to characters

[real sierra]

without it you can just copy paste stockfish

[rigid timber]

obviously, and I get why the token limit exists

[sage crag]

could let the backend resume be a callback and then the bot doesnt exit until the end of the game, but execution is suspended

[real sierra]

it also encourages some creativity I think

even seasoned chess bot makers will have to think a bit

instead of just putting the parts together

[real sierra]

yeah the easiest way to do it all is to have the chess API submit function block on call

I guess ultimately I don't need to worry that much about killing processes that go over time

I just wait for it to return and if it went over time, then they lose and the game ends

[sage crag]

imo processes should last as long as the game because keeping state is quite important to efficient bots

[real sierra]

I agree, I do want that functionality

[rigid timber]

while(true){} go brrr

[real sierra]

yeah I'll need an upper bound of some kind

[rigid timber]

so you will have to worry about killing processes

[real sierra]

the entire chess game shouldn't take more than both bots' max time combined

so I can just kill the game instead of the bots

[olive sable]

now thats interesting

[real sierra]

yeah read below that for reasons

multi threading is prob disallowed

too hard to constrain to follow the rules

[sage crag]

me when i spawn a new instance of the program instead of threading

[olive sable]

if we wont allow online, ill just make it send data through the pcie lanes in a way that i can send and receive data through

[sage crag]

"if i cant send data online, i will not send data online"

[olive sable]

an antenna is basicly a cable

[sage crag]

[rigid timber]

escape the sandbox, start an online game against stockfish, and just follow what the bot does

[olive sable]

shiro plug your headphones in, i need a better antenna

[sage crag]

vm escape

[real sierra]

yeah all of this will be in a vm

stay away from my pcie

[olive sable]

[real sierra]

[rigid timber]

pcie

[real sierra]

just use my power cord as an antenna and alternate your computations to adjust the power supply output

[olive sable]

i wonder if vulkan even works in a vm

probably not

[sage crag]

nurm

im going to rootkit your motherboard

please

nrrrm

[olive sable]

i wonder if i could make the vm crash

scorched earth strat

[opaque sigil]

[sage crag]

tomst

[rigid timber]

pretty sure that just disqualifies you

[olive sable]

[rigid timber]

also pretty sure Shiro wouldn't be too happy about it

just guessing tho, you might get a lollipop, who knows

[olive sable]

"i got banned for making an ai chess bot that is too good"

(good at crashing)

[real sierra]

"hmm wow strange how my VM always crashes when someone plays against this one bot"

[olive sable]

[sage crag]

i wonder why that is

probably coincidence

[olive sable]

imma eat all your ram

[real sierra]

ram limit will be something reasonable

like 4GB

[olive sable]

hmmm

[rigid timber]

can't store all possible positions

[real sierra]

maybe 8GB

we'll see

[sage crag]

how much ram do you have

[real sierra]

32GB

[sage crag]

i want 12gb

[olive sable]

i guess the strat is to calculate as many moves in advance as the rules allow you to, and then store the path you end up going on in ram so you dont need to calculate it again

[real sierra]

subtract windows 10

and vm

[sage crag]

12gb

[real sierra]

and the chess backend

and remember I have to run two bots at once

[sage crag]

ye ye

you dont need ram

bot need ram

[olive sable]

now that i think about it, the sebastion lague video doesnt store the path in ram, or he just didnt mention doing so

[real sierra]

best I can do is 8gb I think

KSP used 20gb before the operating system killed it

[sage crag]

10

[real sierra]

I don't wanna get close to the line

to account for variability

[sage crag]

turn off oomd

[olive sable]

how would we even do this btw? someone makes a front-end for the chess bots and we stream it in vc?

[rough bloom]

it does, you'll just get llvmpipe
in some cases you can pass through Vulkan using VirtIO too

[olive sable]

llvmpipe is probably not worth it

[real sierra]

depending on how many submissions there are I might not stream all the games

[sage crag]

you'll get llvmpipe if you are using mesa

you also cant use vulkan in this because

[real sierra]

but I would make a backend for the bots and then you would submit your code for them somehow

[sage crag]

external dependency

[real sierra]

just implement Vulkan in the token limit

[rigid timber]

just code it yourself

[real sierra]

Vulkan lite

for embedded gpu

[sage crag]

[rigid timber]

Vulkan lite... Vite... this is now web dev

[sage crag]

shimo you should make a list of acceptable libraries to use

[olive sable]

its not like ill be actually rendering anything, so llvmpipe will be slower than actually using cpu code

[sage crag]

what this

[olive sable]

unless llvmpipe will allow for the multithreading that shiro banned

[olive sable]

wdym by this?

[rough bloom]

pretty sure that you would have to disable it because it's banned

[olive sable]

yep

[rough bloom]

also there's no way you're fitting llvmpipe in the token limit

[olive sable]

truew

[sage crag]

no way you can fit typical vulkan use in a small token limit

om

[olive sable]

we're not doing actual rendering

im was planning on using it for the compute shaders

[sage crag]

ye still lots of boilerplate though

[olive sable]

yep

[real sierra]

for every language?

[sage crag]

[real sierra]

I'm not even gonna try to do that, I don't use all the languages I wanna support nearly regularly enough to be an authority on them

people can ask specific questions while the tournament is running and I'll yes/no them

so there'll be a rolling faq of some kind, per language if needed

[real sierra]

I trust the users of the language know more than I do

[olive sable]

lemme just put a collection of 5000 grandmaster games in binary notation in ram and see if the match lines up with any of those

[sage crag]

too bad the bot played accelerated bongcloud

now your bot is playing random moves

[olive sable]

no ill have an actual bot as plan b

[sage crag]

well that's just called an opening book

[rough bloom]

provide a runner as Docker image or something that just takes the source file and runs it against a dummy bot that makes random moves, with correct bindings (if any) included
if it runs, it's valid

[sage crag]

also how are you gonna fit 5000 grandmaster games in so few tokens

[real sierra]

true, it's a valid strategy

[rigid timber]

a string is one token

[real sierra]

some of the standard library functions are disallowed

[olive sable]

an opening book is legal?

[real sierra]

e.g. file I/O

or network calls

[sage crag]

ban strings

[sage crag]

honestly you dont need strings

tbh

[real sierra]

so functional ≠ allowed

[rough bloom]

surely there is a way to disable those

[sage crag]

array literals only

no strings needed

[real sierra]

I have to do that per language tho

[rough bloom]

obliterate them with LD_PRELOAD

[real sierra]

and then if I'm doing all that, what's the point of a general fix for half the problem

[rough bloom]

everything binds to libc, it should work

[opaque sigil]

kill the network and filesystem access

ez

[real sierra]

faster to just skim the solutions myself

[real sierra]

no storage on the VM and no network drivers

write custom OS

[opaque sigil]

[rough bloom]

except Zig and Go but surely nobody uses those

[sage crag]

hey

[opaque sigil]

is that a challenge (zig uses musl)

[sage crag]

you forgot one

[rigid timber]

you could put it in a container mounted with a read-only filesystem and without a network connection...

[olive sable]

no ableos, we dont want to give konii homefield advantage

[tender river]

use an ejudge platform

or something that they use

[sage crag]

if you use ableos ill write in a chess bot kernel feature

[opaque sigil]

chess bot ecall

[real sierra]

effort 📈

[rough bloom]

at that point just use wasm

[sage crag]

no dont

use hbvm so i can alter the game

[real sierra]

we're back to wasm

[sage crag]

well, it is the easiest way

[rigid timber]

tbh either you're gonna have to read through all the submissions or create an environment where it's just not possible to use the banned stuff anyway

[sage crag]

i was meming wasm but

ye

[tender river]

having to bringup the chess bot from scratch would make me more interested in the challenge

[real sierra]

I'll probably have some filters that flag sus submissions to me

and then review those manually

[tender river]

shiro maybe theres a reason wasm is used

[rough bloom]

wasm is like basically made for this
portable and sandboxed but still performant

[rigid timber]

obfuscation

[sage crag]

hbvm also sandboxed

[olive sable]

i wonder, the deeper you search the more expensive each layer gets, but if you cache the previous searches and keep digging until you hit the token limit, how far could you get ahead?

[sage crag]

(depends on implementation) (mileage may vary)

[real sierra]

I'm not sure you understand what I meant by token

[olive sable]

cuz you max out at a certainpoint where the depth is more expensive thant he token limit allows you to go

[real sierra]

I'm not talking LLM tokens or something

[olive sable]

yep i have no clue

[real sierra]

right

when you compile your code the lexer parses your source code into tokens

[olive sable]

you lost me

[real sierra]

which are, broadly speaking, meaningful pieces of the source code

konii will explain better

[opaque sigil]

source code length

[sage crag]

int main() {
  return 0;
}

->

["int", "main", "(", ")", "{", "return", "0", ";", "}"]

[olive sable]

ohhh

so just use as litle keywords as possible?

[real sierra]

it's a good language-independent (ish) way of constraining complexity

[olive sable]

me when i dont use const anywhere

[sage crag]

not just keywords

int a(int x) {}
int b() {}

[opaque sigil]

use binary size, frick those wasteful compilers

[sage crag]

2 more tokens in a than b

[sage crag]

not do that

hblang sweep

[rigid timber]

Rust users in shambles

[opaque sigil]

good

[sage crag]

most compiled language users tbh

no reason for hello world to be >1kb

[real sierra]

you can do some creative micro optimizations for more tokens

[olive sable]

so basicly, use as litle syntax as possible

[rigid timber]

just write assembly

[opaque sigil]

me when i obfuscate the c code

[sage crag]

i.e.

int x = 1;
int y = 2;
// =>
int x = 1, y = 2;

[olive sable]

me when i do inline if statementrs to skip the brackets

[real sierra]

that's the other nice part, int abcdefghijklmnop = 1; and int a = 1; are the same amount of tokens

[sage crag]

goto

[real sierra]

so you don't have to completely obfuscate as there is no merit to it

[sage crag]

im gonna use it

[real sierra]

please leave it semi legible for me

I beg

[sage crag]

im gonna use computed goto

gonna treat chess like a vm

[olive sable]

have you seen what my code looks liek while trying to make it readable? now imagine what happens if i dont

[opaque sigil]

code golf go brrr

[sage crag]

{
}

[real sierra]

can't wait to see how much data people pack into random integers

[sage crag]

[olive sable]

how do header files work in terms of tokens? cuz you're basicly making another function definition so you get more tokens?

[rigid timber]

if you count strings as one token, there will be people who just embed however much data they can

[sage crag]

dont use header file

[opaque sigil]

don't do declarations

easy

[sage crag]

single source code file

that's the rule

1 source code file

[real sierra]

submissions should be a single source file

[sage crag]

honestly i might write a tiny qoi decompressor and treat data as images

[olive sable]

oh

okay

[rough bloom]

my plan is to use codegen, a whole lot of it
but that may be a bit too ambitious, especially with the token limit
I'll decide later

[real sierra]

the headers and API bindings that I provide won't count toward the token limit though

[nocturne olive]

Me when type inference

[sage crag]

this type of stuff is too easy in languages like zig and hblang

[real sierra]

meaning if you have a custom language you want supported and you make bindings for it to attach to the base C header I'll make, and you're willing to share it publicly, I'll make it official and it won't count toward the limit

[olive sable]

so i guess for an opening book you need to make a very efficient way of storing everything

[real sierra]

it of course can't introduce new functionality though

[sage crag]

ye

which requires an efficient move representation

[tender river]

can do same thing in python

[sage crag]

ye but python slow

faster computation=> better bot

[opaque sigil]

make a programming language specifically for this

[real sierra]

long long pieceSquareTable = b10001101_00100110_11110111_11111111;

[sage crag]

just write it in asm atp

[real sierra]

(idk if that's the right size)

[sage crag]

64 bits => 64 squares

doesnt help determine what is what though

[olive sable]

hmmm. how many board states are there again?

[real sierra]

the decoding scheme isn't too hard

[opaque sigil]

yes

[real sierra]

in chess?

[sage crag]

reachable or total?

[olive sable]

pretty much infinity i guess

[real sierra]

reachable or total, both are open problems

if you solve either you can probably retire

[sage crag]

its ((1 << 63) ^ 4) for total board states

but uh

reachable

[real sierra]

oh right

yeah total is doable

but reachable is uh

yeah

[olive sable]

i dont mean while playing, just every place piece a can go x every place piece b can go considering piece a x everywhere piece c ....

[real sierra]

that's probably total then

[sage crag]

no this is "possible"

[real sierra]

oh

[sage crag]

it doesnt include things like having a board full of kings

its also unsolved

[sage crag]

or more accurately, it doesnt include things that would fail the rule check for a single turn

so things that cant be played from

[olive sable]

hmmm. with pawn promotion its actually a lot harder than i first considered

[real sierra]

yeah

[sage crag]

its completely impossible regardless of pawn promotion

[real sierra]

it's a famous combinatorics problem

you can upper bound it tho

[sage crag]

its estimated that there were about 10^100 different chess games

iirc

but its just a vague number

[olive sable]

not consodering pawn promotion you just make all possible positions on the board for the amount of pieces ingame no?

[real sierra]

sam does not understand the combinatorial explosion he's waving away

[sage crag]

sam does not understand what he's after is still not possible

[real sierra]

the board states grow exponentially

[sage crag]

literally factorial growth

[olive sable]

hmmm

[real sierra]

the core issue is that which positions are possible for a piece to be in depends on the precise series of moves preceding the current state

[olive sable]

ye but i dont care about those

i mean purely board states independant on piece move order needed

[real sierra]

[sage crag]

no its literally still impossible

because

there are still rules

like there cant be two kings touching

[olive sable]

ye nah i dont care about the rules

[sage crag]

then that's just total

???

[olive sable]

just purely how many are possible?

[sage crag]

do you mean with the normal pieces

possible is different from total btw

[olive sable]

not possible with rules, jsut physically if i move the pieces there

[sage crag]

possible is when you are following the rules

[real sierra]

then it's ≤ (sum (64 choose N) * (N!) for N in {0, .., 32})

[queen harness]

Wow, actually smart people are in here

[real sierra]

if you assume you start with the standard 32 pieces

[tender river]

some

[olive sable]

not me

[tender river]

not me

[sage crag]

what about

positions reached by captures

are you considering those

[olive sable]

yes

[sage crag]

o7 problem unsolved

[real sierra]

chess combinatorics pain

[queen harness]

Intelligent in your respective fields?

[real sierra]

I am an idiot in all fields

and I can prove it without trying

[queen harness]

Disagree.

[sage crag]

as soon as you add captures to the problem its already unsolvable

[real sierra]

see what I mean? I'm already wrong

[tender river]

my field is wasting my time

[queen harness]

Then you're good at proving you're bad at stuff, which in turn makes you good at something. This is not logical.

[olive sable]

like i said, completely independant of following rules.
jsut purely if i manually move the pieces wherever i want them, how many possibilities are there

[sage crag]

also

do pieces have identity

like, there are 8 different pawns

[olive sable]

no

[sage crag]

ok that's good

[real sierra]

that's just 64 choose 32 isn't it

or is it possibly fewer pieces

[olive sable]

i mean, considering there is 1 pawn on the board there are 64 possebilities for it to be
considering there is 1 rook there are 64 possebilities
...
then you add all those up

[sage crag]

holy

[olive sable]

im tryiing to say, completely independent of the rules

[tender river]

just compute full amount of permutations and divide by amount of permutations of 8, 2, 2, 2 pieces (divide twice) or something

[sage crag]

what happens when you have a pawn and a rook on the board

[sage crag]

think about it

[olive sable]

well, 64 * 63 init

[sage crag]

ding ding

[real sierra]

I think this is what he wants

[sage crag]

ok now what happens if

[real sierra]

not sure tho

[sage crag]

you said you wanted ones reached by captures as well right

[real sierra]

phone about to die

[rigid timber]

get a charger smh

[olive sable]

well, i dont really care about reaching in general, just every posseble space on the board that is still empty

[sage crag]

i really dont know what you are asking

do you want states with only the default number of pieces or states with less than or equal to the default number of pieces

[olive sable]

i dont mean board states you have to get to. i mean considering i have an 8x8 squareand 32 items, how many combinations can i fill the 8x8 square with

[stark needle]

konii 2.0.1 what are the changelogs

[olive sable]

then that plus the rooks and stuff are diffrent

[real sierra]

not home rn

[sage crag]

that's just a standard permutations problem

[olive sable]

yes

[sage crag]

more konii

[olive sable]

thats what im asking

[opaque sigil]

wouldnt that still be factorial

[olive sable]

thats all i ever wanted to know

[olive sable]

probably

[sage crag]

this does treat different pawns as different

[opaque sigil]

idk the exact number but what i do know is that the moment you have a factorial you fucked up

[tender river]

in competitive programming you just use modulo maths

[olive sable]

ye thats not what i want. just purely a pawn is a pawn and they're the same thing

[tender river]

factorial but short

[sage crag]

which is not the number you gave

[olive sable]

i didnt give a number

[sage crag]

there are 32 pieces on the board, 8 of them are white pawns 8 of them are black pawns

[olive sable]

yes

[sage crag]

you gave 32 different pieces, which implies each pawn is different

[tacit plover]

Found out about semantic versioning, seems cool

[tender river]

vaguely relevant

[olive sable]

well, if there are 8 pawns on the baord, yes each pawn is diffrent cuz they're in diffrent positions, but if there is only 1 pawn on the baord, i dont want 8 copies of the board state because of 8 pawns exisitng

[sage crag]

no

wrong

[olive sable]

wdym wrong?

[sage crag]

assume you have 2 pawns

of the same colour

[olive sable]

yes

[sage crag]

if you swap them, you want this to be counted as the same position

[olive sable]

yes

[sage crag]

but if you just do 32 items, its counted as a different position

[olive sable]

no

a pawn is a pawn

[sage crag]

wtf do you mean no

yes a pawn is a pawn, doesnt stop it from being counted as different positions given the conditions you gave

[real sierra]

ok Sam, what do you want to consider for each tile

[olive sable]

if there are 8 pawns in play, then i dont want to save diffrent boarrd states for if i switch 2 of them

im not indexing my pawns

[sage crag]

yes, so its not 32 items

its more complicated

[tender river]

try calculating just for 2 same color pawns on the board

then 3

[olive sable]

its 32 objects, with 6 diffrent posseble states

[real sierra]

is this tile...
...pawn/rook/bishop?
...white pawn/black rook/white bishop?
...white pawn #5/black rook #2/white bishop #1?

these are all different counting problems

[sage crag]

vast oversimplification

[olive sable]

yes

[real sierra]

which are you interested in

[olive sable]

i am oversimplifying, that is the point

[sage crag]

no i mean

even of what you want to calculate

[olive sable]

the 2nd one

[sage crag]

there is a limited number of each state

its not a random 6 states

[olive sable]

id hope each state only appears once

thats what im tryign to have

[sage crag]

so now we've moved from piece state to board state

[olive sable]

konii i dont get what you meab

[real sierra]

it's just a combinatorial problem

you just choose the following elements

• number of tiles occupied
• how many of those are white bishops
• how many of those remaining are black bishops
• how many of the remaining are white rooks
• how many of the remaining are black rooks
• etc
• multiply by number of total tiles factorial for permutations of this set of tiles and pieces

write each as (A choose B) and multiply

get number and win

[olive sable]

1 pawn = 64 states
2 paws = 64*63 states
3 pawns = 64*63*62 states
4 pawns = 64*63*62*61 states
5 pawns = 64*63*62*61*60 states
6 pawns = 64*63*62*61*60*59 states
7 pawns = 64*63*62*61*60*59*58 states
8 pawns = 64*63*62*61*60*59*58*57 states
1 king = 64 states
1 king and 1 pawn = 64*63 states

you get the idea

[real sierra]

discord formatting

if my phone wasn't about to die I'd do you a favour and punch it into desmos

[sage crag]

this will double count positions for pawns

[olive sable]

thew whole point is that i dont care about where the pieces came from, wheter the board stat eis legal, or if its physically possible to get there

[olive sable]

wdym?

oh i see

[sage crag]

there will be duplicate positions that are counted

[olive sable]

ye that is true

hmmm

[sage crag]

which is why i said its more complex

[real sierra]

answer ignored

[sage crag]

because there's multiple of every piece

[real sierra]

1% battery o/

[sage crag]

(except k,q)

[olive sable]

that also doesnt considert the colours of the pieces

[olive sable]

then it's ≤ (sum (64 choose N) * (N!) for N in {0, .., 32})
this one?

[sage crag]

no

this is your same one

[sage crag]

it right here

[real sierra]

tldr sam you can construct all of the boards you want to consider uniquely through a linear sequence of choices and if you just multiply through by how many options you have for each choice, you get the number of possible boards

[sage crag]

64! / (32! * 8! * 8! * ((2!)^6))
im going to give this as my estimation

[real sierra]

spent my last 5% on combinatorics

life is cruel

[sage crag]

my puter says its 4.63 * 10^42

[olive sable]

gemini says this

[sage crag]

1! is 1

so turns out to the same

[olive sable]

yes i know

4.6347267e42 seems like alot of states still

[tender river]

theres more possible games because multiple ways to get to same position

also pawn promotion and captures add positions

and then you remove some positions to account for reachability

[olive sable]

ye but im completely ignoring that because thats not what i wanted to know

[tender river]

as shrimple as that

[olive sable]

this does mean you can have up to 10 of a piece on the board i guess

hmm

ill ignore that for now

ok considering there are 6 possible pieces, each having a white an black variant, we can give each place ont he board a 4 digit binary number i think

1 bit for colour, and 3 for the type with all 0 being an empty space

so a chess board state is 4*64 bits

[tender river]

only if you ignore rules like castling eligibility

[olive sable]

im ignoring all the rules, dont worry

256 bits per board x 4.6347267e42 board states is 2.4057662e30 bits

3.0072077e29 bytes, 2.7350395e+17 tb

i dont have that many terabytes available

[opaque sigil]

just use the entirety of aws still would be nowhere near enough but shh

[cosmic sphinx]

discord changed interface again

[olive sable]

did it?

oh ye i cant get the update yet on linux lmao

[cosmic sphinx]

new chat box

[olive sable]

the AUR isnt updated yet

is it not the same?

i feel like the chatbox has been like this for a while by now

[rough bloom]

no, the + is different

[sage crag]

its also taller

[onyx solar]

Discord staff trying to not change a single detail about the ui in a week:

[sage crag]

i noticed in some servers Several people got changed to Multiple people as well

[olive sable]

huh

[onyx solar]

Multiple for when there are just a few

[sage crag]

that's stupid

several should be for a few

[onyx solar]

Of course it is

[olive sable]

grammar policing lmao

[sage crag]

just correctness

[rough bloom]

just show the number

[sage crag]

ye

several means >3 but not many

[onyx solar]

Can't, would fry the servers

[sage crag]

3 is a few

single
couple
few (trio)
several (quartet, quintet, some more, idk, depends on context)
multiple (everything greater than that)

[onyx solar]

So several is a few couples

[sage crag]

6 seems more like multiple to me

[real sierra]

just hash all userids of people typing and say "{hash} is typing"

[sage crag]

dont publish the algorithm though

[olive sable]

yo could eventually figure out the algorithm i think

[sage crag]

lol.

lol.

[olive sable]

could you not?

[sage crag]

if its a good and novel hashing algorithm, its not really possible to reverse engineer

if you only get the hash that is

[olive sable]

ah i see

[sage crag]

if you can see code its trivial

[olive sable]

so you mean its server side

[sage crag]

ye

if its on the client you can just read the code

[real sierra]

last 1% battery

[olive sable]

this math is wrong lmao

1.18649e45

so 1.348883e32 TB

[tender river]

do you know any visualization toolkits for realtime data? i want to experiment with fft

and similar

i could just render it myself but i want to do maths not rendering

framebuffer it is

[rough bloom]

not quite a toolkit but fastplotlib would be good if it wasn't still in its early days

[olive sable]

isnt that roughly the same thing?

[tender river]

what does 3blue1brown use again

[rough bloom]

manim

[olive sable]

also it updated my discord in the background somehow

[tender river]

try rendering text

[sage crag]

er

[olive sable]

oh i see your point

[sage crag]

draw it in a pixbuffer

use manim if you want visualisations, i agree

[tender river]

ye its not just matrix transforms its also a bunch of plumbing that i dont like

[sage crag]

but if you only care about very simple ones you could use matplotlib

[tender river]

manim looks good i'll try it

[real sierra]

my class just cited a book from 1890

am I cooked

[olive sable]

[tender river]

i dont mind writing text rendering or whatever but not when i just want to write throwaway visualization

[olive sable]

text rendering is a bit annoying ye

i tend to avoid it by prebaking my text on a texture

[tender river]

even ignoring text, if you want to draw a graph of a function computed on cpu you're already in a bad position

[olive sable]

are you? just set the opengl or vulkan mode to line drawing and you're good to go

[tender river]

m

[olive sable]

i dont like how big the space is betweeen the new discord text type thing and the chat above it

very uncomfortable to look at

[tender river]

browser + userstyles

the space is for a typing indicator tho

[olive sable]

the old typing indicator was good, i dont liek this new one

[rough bloom]

same
I think they moved the chat box down but not the chat itself so it looks weird
or maybe I'm just

[olive sable]

AAAAAA

[warped narwhal]

[olive sable]

i have autism, i can't handle changes

[warped narwhal]

I have autism
I can guarantee that this applies to 99% of #programming chatters

[olive sable]

[warped narwhal]

it's in our blood

[olive sable]

how many bits are in dna again?

[rigid snow]

bites

[olive sable]

dna is a 4 state system tho so idk if i can directly relate it to bits

[real sierra]

do not store your chess bot in a human

I will disqualify you

[olive sable]

im just theorizing

[real sierra]

humans aren't even simd

[olive sable]

6 pieces, 2 colours, and a state for empty
13 needed states

so 2 basepairs should fit

4*4 = 16

[olive sable]

humans have ecc tho

[warped narwhal]

only until you hit 25

[rigid snow]

i rebranded back

[olive sable]

2 base pairs x 4.6347267e42
9.2694534e42 base pairs needed

3.2 billion base pairs int he genome

[opaque sigil]

I only know that a fly is 140gb apparently, do with that what you will

[olive sable]

ok we dont really need 2 copies in each cell,s o that gives us 6.4 billion per cell

1.4483521e33 cells needed

human body has 30 to 40 trillion cells

so that leaves me with 3.6208802e19 humans needed to encode chess

[opaque sigil]

[olive sable]

shiro i dont have 36,208,802,000,000,000,000 humans in my basement so i dont think that would work

36 quintillion, 208 quadrillion, 802 trillion

[opaque sigil]

Give it a couple years

[olive sable]

i dont think i have enough space nor food for that many people

and given im gonna be mutating them they wont be able to get food for themselves

[opaque sigil]

[real sierra]

person in front of me just bluescreened mid lecture

rip notes

[olive sable]

lmao

thats gonna be me

[real sierra]

water

[olive sable]

my laptop loves to bluescreen for no reason

[real sierra]

middle and maybe top left

[tender river]

sorry to say you didn't pass

[olive sable]

bottom middle too

[real sierra]

oh

did I just fail a captcha

[tender river]

yes

[real sierra]

[olive sable]

there are some bad drivers on there, but apparently gigabyte software is shit in general

so cant install beter drivers since there are no better drivers

[opaque sigil]

Have you verified that it's actually their fault

[olive sable]

its either gigabyte's fault, intel's or nvidia's

[opaque sigil]

Next time go look at the memory dump smh (you have to opt into that pretty sure)

[olive sable]

afaik its something to do with the dual gpu system on there

[opaque sigil]

optimus moment

[olive sable]

harware error

[stark needle]

chat

[olive sable]

yes

[stark needle]

i trained AlphaZero on one epoch

lol

anyone wanna play against it

[real sierra]

is this 1% gonna last until I get home wtf

[amber fractal]

yep

[stark needle]

i'm first gonna try and see how high of a stockfish level this can beat

[real sierra]

exciting

happy to see people experimenting already

[tender river]

maybe not unemployed?

[stark needle]

a company wrote to me they seemed pretty enthusiastic

[tender river]

good luck

[stark needle]

bruh

they do enterprise resource planning

[tender river]

perfect with vrchat experience

[stark needle]

i first got automodded lmao

i love enterprise resource planning

also their offices are google level

[olive sable]

Based on the WinDbg analysis of the dump file, the problem is a Timeout Detection and Recovery (TDR) error caused by the Intel Graphics driver.
according to gemini

[stark needle]

their headquarters look like a fortress

[dense fractal]

MBZUAI Researchers Release K2 Think: A 32B Open-Source System for Advanced AI Reasoning and Outperforms 20x Larger Reasoning Models
https://www.reddit.com/r/machinelearningnews/comments/1ncu45f/mbzuai_researchers_release_k2_think_a_32b/

[stark needle]

🥀

bad model

even after many gens

[dense fractal]

i dont care i only post news

[stark needle]

my chess thingie was trained on 7 415 641 520 data points

[olive sable]

[stark needle]

aka around 92 million chess matches

ooooo

[real sierra]

so im home

im looking into vm options

vmware has been buried under corporate portal hell

virtualbox is uhh......

any suggestions

[olive sable]

i have no clue

[real sierra]

perfect

i guess i just test run every bot on my actual computer and if anyone bricks it, they lose and all others win

this is fine

[sage crag]

qemu

[rigid timber]

you're on windows, right? HyperV...

[real sierra]

hyperv

ill try

[rigid timber]

also you should be able to get virtualbox from oracle.com if virtualbox.org is down

[real sierra]

[olive sable]

nooo its using llvmpipe again
why dif it break again???

[rigid timber]

oh yeah, HyperV requires the Pro edition

you might have Home

[amber fractal]

@olive sable out of curiosity, any biters on the 3090?

[real sierra]

i do indeed have home

[olive sable]

not so far

[rigid timber]

then no HyperV for you

[real sierra]

pls

[olive sable]

for context, there is a 520 euro 3090 for sale locally
i know yall like your 3090's so im dealing them

[real sierra]

if i see "cloud" one more time on this website im going to strangle someone

[amber fractal]

@ cloudburst

[real sierra]

its over

virtual machines dont exist anymore

all gone

[olive sable]

does cloudburst run in the cloud?

[rigid timber]

clearly

[real sierra]

virtualbox website is back from the dead

[olive sable]

vulkan just doesnt see my 3090 as an existant gpu apparently now

this is not even a my code issue now, its a linux or drivers issue

huh

even the waybar stopped seeing my gpu

even allacrity doesnt see it

i guess ill restart my pc??????

my monitors are connected to my gpu and i am getting output, so it has to be a driver issue

ok its fixed now, weird

[small anvil]

gpu ran away

[unkempt citrus]

You need to treat it nicely

[olive sable]

[unkempt citrus]

Warm it up

[olive sable]

it is warn

its 55C

[small anvil]

woah woah dinner first

[unkempt citrus]

Before you start it

That too

[small anvil]

everyone knows that

[unkempt citrus]

Wine and dine it

[olive sable]

wo wo , this is a pg13 server

[unkempt citrus]

But I assumed that was assumed knowledge

[small anvil]

i see i see

[real sierra]

[small anvil]

give your gpu some affirmations my friend

[real sierra]

guys..?

[small anvil]

hello shiro

[real sierra]

keep the gpu fantasies pg

[small anvil]

[real sierra]

[olive sable]

#programming

[small anvil]

average day in #programming

[rigid timber]

do not the gpu

[olive sable]

anyways it works now

[small anvil]

do you know what the problem was?

[olive sable]

no

[small anvil]

im interested

gah

fairs

[olive sable]

i restarted my pc

[small anvil]

"have you tried turning it off and on" moment

[olive sable]

some type of nvidia hyprland driver mismatch i guess

[unkempt citrus]

[olive sable]

bro is smug towards a mod

nah

[unkempt citrus]

[real sierra]

i know im gonna regret asking this but

which linux distro should i get for running these bots

[unkempt citrus]

What bots

[real sierra]

i obviously dont need too much pre-installed but id also rather not be here for hours partitioning a disk

[olive sable]

whichever one is the easiest to set up i guess

so not nixos

[real sierra]

easiest is probably just ubuntu but its like 25GB

[unkempt citrus]

Ubuntu has all the packages

[real sierra]

my disk

[unkempt citrus]

Lubuntu then?

[olive sable]

my experience with cachyos has been good, but thats a sample size of 1 so pretty much worthless

[real sierra]

lgtm

[unkempt citrus]

You could also look for mini versions designed for cloud

Lububuntu

[real sierra]

cloud

[tender river]

i am at my peak evil right now

[real sierra]

what is my bios key

i never remember which

[olive sable]

f11?

[real sierra]

ill try it

brb

[olive sable]

i just spam f9, 10, 11 and 12 at the sme time with my 4 fingers

cuz i also cant remember

[amber fractal]

I have f2 for bios

[real sierra]

i couldnt find the virtualization option in startup options

is it a UEFI setting

[amber fractal]

ye

[real sierra]

frick

brb again

[tender river]

f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f8 f9 f10 f11 f12 esc del insert

single key

fshhhh

[patent walrus]

try F15

[real sierra]

hopefully that doesn't brick my pc

I would hate to go through all these vm shenanigans to avoid bricking my system, only to brick it anyway

[amber fractal]

What about F35?

[olive sable]

F150

🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸

[amber fractal]

[real sierra]

lubuntu is installing

at last

[olive sable]

[real sierra]

wait

D actually sounds fire?

wait what

[amber fractal]

You can always do manual memory in C++. It is just not recommeded

[onyx solar]

Why would one submit themselves to that

[unkempt citrus]

D has some fun ideas but last I heard the execution and management was a complete mess

[real sierra]

wait till you hear about C++

nobody would EVER use something so stapled together

[terse hare]

have you heard of this thing called javascript

[real sierra]

unfortunately

[unkempt citrus]

Yeah but does C++ have 2 standard libraries?

[real sierra]

one sec my lubuntu vm is about to run out of disk mid-update and im excited to see what happens

[amber fractal]

If I decide to do the chess thing, however unlikely I'll get anything finished before it, I'll be sure to port my AI to JS just to screw with Shiro~

[terse hare]

chess thing?

[real sierra]

i think submissions will be open for a month

so you'll have time

[amber fractal]

I still got to build my standard library and prove it even works. So even a month might not be enough.

[real sierra]

chess bot tournament

[terse hare]

oh cool good luck

[real sierra]

ill invite everyone here to write a chess bot to submit

[terse hare]

i cant ai yet, still learning web dev

[real sierra]

[terse hare]

though i did take an intro class in college

tho that was mostly data analytics tbf

[unkempt citrus]

Yes that's like 40% of AI

[real sierra]

how do they do that

[terse hare]

what

how

[real sierra]

thats my question

i can understand a VM using a compressed drive

[amber fractal]

Pre allocation in action

[real sierra]

but that is some crazy compression

[real sierra]

nono

the bottom is the REAL size

the top is the size available to the vm

[amber fractal]

I'm assuming it isn't used yet

[real sierra]

it is

95% of the 10GB used

i have no idea how

[terse hare]

uhh, magic

[real sierra]

anyway i need more storage

[olive sable]

real size cant be 2mb

[real sierra]

adding a second drive

[olive sable]

you must have the actual files already installed somwhere else i think

2mb is just too small i think

[real sierra]

you're right, it just hadnt refreshed yet...

[olive sable]

welp

[real sierra]

no compression...

[olive sable]

there it is

[rigid snow]

make your fucking waybar shorter pls

[olive sable]

???

why

[rigid snow]

too tall

[olive sable]

thats not the full size, i cropped the image

oh tallnes

yr nah

[amber fractal]

I should make mine smaller so I have have stacked bars

[olive sable]

[amber fractal]

Though I was planning on using quickshell for my next bar, so I guess I don't need 2 bar instances

[olive sable]

its fine imo

[amber fractal]

One day I'll bother to make it, maybe also make an app launcher

I finally found something that I can use as install media

so time to do some system wiping

[olive sable]

hmmm

youtube music has a lyrics page

but for this song its jsut completely wrong

[amber fractal]

AI generated

[olive sable]

nah the source is "musixmatch"

unless that is ai generated

[rigid snow]

it shouldn't be

usually it's either the artist themself who submits lyrics to musixmatch

or peer reviewed lyrics submitted by a user

[olive sable]

oh

[rigid snow]

and it's not like genius it's strict there

[olive sable]

they show me the lyrics from a different song from the same artist

[rigid snow]

spotify and apple music also use musixmatch as a lyrics provider btw

[olive sable]

it seems like the official song has the correct lyrics, but the music video has the wrong ones

even on my phone its wrong

[real sierra]

new drive mounted

now this thing is actually ready for some software

what software do i need again

[olive sable]

i guess vscode or whatever you use

[olive sable]

how do you even report that? i guess"captions are inaccurate"????

[amber fractal]

With some research, I have a fun fact

[olive sable]

[amber fractal]

Youtube music can technically display anything that exists on the video site

[rigid snow]

is that a secret

[olive sable]

i didnt know it

[rigid snow]

i never used youtube music and somehow i know that

[olive sable]

i knew i could go from yt music to youtube, i never thought about going the other way

[amber fractal]

The video I tried didn't work but interesting to know

[olive sable]

it emidiatly went to the next "song"

but its a neat trick

"similair content" my ass

[amber fractal]

I went for memes, it didn't work at all

[olive sable]

what should we put after this mario 64 video?
hmmmm... fuck it, the chainsaw man opening

[rigid snow]

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=Stvc9zR3-KA

i think the requirement is it being on an artists channel