programming

[sage crag]

also im removing :version "latest" that seems like an easy way to get malware

[tender river]

it can be fine if you have lockfiles

if you dont have lockfiles then it cant be fine

mhm

[sage crag]

wa

[fast pagoda]

do u even checksum

[sage crag]

im inventing a package definition format, there is nothing to checksum yet

[tender river]

fetched dependencies have to be checksummed ideally

[sage crag]

yes

[opaque wharf]

Why not copy npm?

[sage crag]

wa

[tender river]

and git commit hash doesnt count as a checksum

[fast pagoda]

checksum the checksums to ensure that they are checksummed out they dome

[sage crag]

yes

not sure what best practice for checksumming directories is

tar and then checksum?

[tender river]

there is some standard way but not sure what it is

uh let me check

[sage crag]

checksum each file in the directory and then checksum the concatenated checksums

:mhm:

[opaque wharf]

If it is git repo, couldn't you do git archive and checksum that?

[fast pagoda]

checksum the working tree

[sage crag]

not good enough, needs to work on arbitrary directories

[opaque wharf]

Checksum the directory name, file list and size

[opaque sigil]

find into sorting into individual checksums into global checksum?

[sage crag]

i did that in the past, but its awfully dependant on find utility

i'd rather walk the directory in code

[opaque wharf]

Lmao

[fast pagoda]

crawl it in code when it takes 30 min

[opaque sigil]

not like there's anything stopping you from doing so

[opaque wharf]

The easiest way is really to tar it

[fast pagoda]

tar my beloved

[opaque sigil]

okay but that's even less portable than find lol

[sage crag]

yes

i'll just walk the directory

[opaque wharf]

Wait, how would an encryption be done to a dir?

[tender river]

thats a first

[sage crag]

in that case you really do tar it

[fast pagoda]

duckduckstop

[limpid timber]

ainoway

[sage crag]

awa

[tender river]

directory file order is undefined

[sage crag]

a

[tender river]

i've realized that nix just uses nars for that, which are like tars but deterministic

[sage crag]

uhh

alphabetical order

[fast pagoda]

nars bar

[opaque wharf]

l10n said hello

[sage crag]

i uhh

[opaque sigil]

lexicographic order

[sage crag]

uhhh

[fast pagoda]

haha yeah we all know that one right guys

[sage crag]

file size order

[opaque wharf]

No, you hash every file first, then sort the hash

[sage crag]

5head

hash every file, sort hashes as numbers

[fast pagoda]

vibes order
set an llm with 0.0 temp and a fixed seed at the dir and let it arbitrarily sort

[sage crag]

just let the llm compute the hash atp

vibehashing

[opaque wharf]

Ironically enough, it may work lmao

[tender river]

https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.26/protocols/nix-archive

[sage crag]

nar

[tender river]

nur

[opaque wharf]

Setting temp to 0 and with defined seed, the LLM is deterministic right?

[tender river]

go uses sha256sum $(find . -type f | sort) | sha256sum apparently

[sage crag]

it doesnt even set the locale???

hash dependant on country

[opaque wharf]

[tender river]

i think in general everyone just prefers hashing a single file; of course, that file has to be stored somewhere

[tender river]

imo, best practice is any archive format (nar or tar) that you can deterministically construct and hash, and that you can get the source back from (i.e. it needs to be a bidirectional format, unlike go)

[sage crag]

hum

[sage crag]

i think this may be sufficient to be honest

[tender river]

that way external tooling may independently use the computed hash to construct a file with prefetched dependencies and verify it, and only store that verified file

[sage crag]

remember i have to write this in hblang too

and it has to be portable to aos

[tender river]

tars were written for tape archival

you'll manage

[sage crag]

noe

[tender river]

yes

i believe in you

you can just use nar as is, or you can write any binary format with the same contents

you dont have to save the archive either

as long as it can be constructed independently thats enough

[sage crag]

working more on format

im dumping arbitrary version names, semver only please

now to figure out if and how to handle c dependencies

considering they dont exist for ableos

[opaque wharf]

So you bump version on different build of the same version?

[fast pagoda]

i have my own versioning that i decided was correct a long time ago and its apparently known as a party foul to just come up with some bullshit

like i did and do

[sage crag]

most packages that you will see that are forced to use semver will just have version "0.1.0" no matter how many changes

[fast pagoda]

it's beautiful

[opaque wharf]

I need some snack

[fast pagoda]

yep

[sage crag]

that's fine imo

[limpid timber]

2: stand proud 7 u are okay.

[opaque wharf]

Hmm, so no binary package?

[sage crag]

why would i

[tender river]

make petal build the object file and force the user to link to C code by themselves

[sage crag]

this was the solution i came up with

but i dont like it particularly

[opaque sigil]

what is petal again

[tender river]

but its an industry best practice, java does it

[opaque sigil]

build tool?

[sage crag]

build tool for hblang tbd

[opaque sigil]

[sage crag]

will be written in python and then written in hblang

[tender river]

it makes sense though, have you seen how complicated C dependencies can be

[opaque wharf]

Well, to cut down on compile time when possible? I don't know really

[fast pagoda]

just remembered something and realized why my pipewire has been dying continously

[tender river]

rust just went "fine here you go, write whatever you want in build.rs"

[sage crag]

hblang compiles too fast for it to matter

[fast pagoda]

think this is the bastard

[sage crag]

yeah, this is the problem

c dependencies just do whatever they want

maybe i should include the commit and repository of the hblang compiler used

because that thing is never going to be stable

[tender river]

and they are also platform dependent

[fast pagoda]

make that your version number

[sage crag]

[tender river]

top level package sure, no need to do it for libraries tho

[sage crag]

mhm

a problem i can think of is arbitrary compiler means supporting arbitrary compiler arguments

aside from the obvious "this could be malware"

so i think i will just stick to latest

[opaque wharf]

Time to see konii suffer

The petal development will be shared here right?

[fast pagoda]

who is responsible for nix (pkger//nar//nixos) as w hole

is it just one VERY opinionated guy

i could see that

[opaque sigil]

well it was a phd thesis

so i guess

[sage crag]

it will be done a day after i start

[fast pagoda]

yes i think in the netherlands

[opaque sigil]

it's an interesting read

i should finish it

[fast pagoda]

that seems to spency

[tender river]

i saw that

[sage crag]

interesting premise

[olive sable]

ngl for aliexpress pricing that still seems like a lot

[fast pagoda]

gmorning sam

[tender river]

for me i'm fine with just carrying around my ereader

[fast pagoda]

it seems too expensive for what it is to me

[tender river]

aliexpress has regular pricing

[sage crag]

its actually dhgate

aliexpress was 600 dollars more

[fast pagoda]

low volume device ig

you could get a whole lot for 400 buckaronis

[sage crag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wf3ebnqzn0

[olive sable]

not for me. i got my tablet for 240 bucks when its 700 here

[sage crag]

found video

[olive sable]

never heard of that before

[fast pagoda]

ewww the site has some form of tiktok related category thing

im out

[tender river]

it started as a phd thesis, but nowadays nix is a community project

[tender river]

imo ereaders should be able to read pdfs well, and phone screens are kinda small

even on my kobo clara hd i have to use portrait mode and split each page into two

[fast pagoda]

PDF is an infuriating format

fuck PDF actually

[tender river]

but its what papers are written in

nothing you can do about that

[opaque wharf]

Oh, pdf is sooo much worse than what it actually is lol

[fast pagoda]

yeah but as a format it's highly rude

[opaque wharf]

Not every implementation even agree to support every feature (and rightfully so)

[sage crag]

javascript in pdf

why does your pdf have RCE

can i embed hblang compiler in pdf

[fast pagoda]

doesnt arxiv and id imagine other sites that serve papers already have some form of conversion methds to get them to be just raw html5 instead

i cant believe adobe still sells so many pdf tools

[opaque sigil]

i don't even care about the format itself, just give me the option to not have to manually invert pages every single time

arxiv has a shitty html5 viewer

[fast pagoda]

yeah ive never tried it

[opaque wharf]

Invert?

[fast pagoda]

is it truly dogwater

[opaque wharf]

What are you doing?

[fast pagoda]

dark mode

i imagine

[opaque sigil]

yeah inverting colours

[sage crag]

my other consideration is what about hblang bindings to c libraries

[tender river]

bwa this requires codegen

[opaque wharf]

Reading a document meant for printing in dark mode is something else

[opaque sigil]

this is one of the main reasons i use firefox tbh, since pdf.js actually lets you target the pdf page as opposed to the entire viewer

half the pdfs were never meant for printing

[sage crag]

i dont mean generating them, i gave up on that before writing any notes

[opaque sigil]

actually

[sage crag]

i mean using them

[opaque sigil]

i'd argue most of them

[fast pagoda]

the PDF viewer in chrome will let you invert the page the same as any other with like darkreader and it turns them black with white text

[opaque sigil]

especially when it's just text

[opaque wharf]

Hmm, maybe I'm biased because of tons of datasheet and other document

[opaque sigil]

no it inverts the entire viewer

[sage crag]

if im writing a custom lisp perhaps it's worth it to parse versions like 0.1.0 rather than treating them as strings like "0.1.0"

[fast pagoda]

yes which still has a nice crisp black pdf with white text

and then a bunch of white around it

custom css time

[tender river]

yuh thats what custom linker script is for

[opaque sigil]

why would i want the first when i can have the second

[tender river]

at most i'd suggest allowing libraries to pass -l linker flags

[opaque sigil]

can't even do that sadly

[sage crag]

this level of dependency control still feels a bit scary

[tender river]

yup, honetsly i think its fine leaving it up to the end user to link everything idk

[sage crag]

mhm

[fast pagoda]

that sounds like a challenge

[opaque sigil]

trust me, i have tried

lost way too much time on this crap

[sage crag]

awa

[opaque sigil]

the best you'll get is using the pdf.js extension

[tender river]

to the contrary, in rust crates are responsible for their own C dependencies but when your system doesnt provide it in an expected place the crate just breaks

awa

[sage crag]

awa

[sage crag]

any ideas for alterations

[tender river]

give me a minute

[sage crag]

binute

[tender river]

bour

[sage crag]

bwa

[fast pagoda]

🅱️inute

[olive sable]

awa

[sage crag]

🅱️wa

[opaque wharf]

https://mlntcandy.github.io/bime

[sage crag]

day 0x11

11:1990

appealing number

[opaque wharf]

So we miss 1984

Evil stream!

[olive sable]

warning: USE_WEBGPU is deprecated (please try migrating to --use-port=emdawnwebgpu, which implements a newer, incompatible version of webgpu.h ...)
wdym incompatible??? why would i want to use an incompatible version?

[sage crag]

sam van wgpu maele

[olive sable]

wgpu != webgpu

[sage crag]

correct

however

they are the same

[rigid snow]

wgpu ✅

[olive sable]

no

wgpu is rust

[sage crag]

correct

[rigid snow]

gpu is gpu

[tender river]

• format-version could be in () as well
• depends are semantically something the package depends on, right? shouldnt it be below package in the tree?
• not sure what example is for, something more generic could be extra binary entrypoints like rust's [[bins]] i think
• provides could be merged with example too maybe
• external could use the exact same syntax as top-level packages, in fact it could be a package as well but with a :root ... attr or whatever
• ^ in that case it would be nice to standardize locations a bit more, :src + :git + :hash is a bit too dynamically typed, even if you only plan to use git for now i would prefer something that makes it being git explicit, like (lily (git "https://..." :commit "..." :hash "abcd"))
• :version :git looks weird bwa, :version (git ...) would make more sense
  i could potentially go on but thats enough feedback for now i think?

[sage crag]

example is another library, perhaps its not clear

bwa

external is supposed to be the same as the toplevel, i just forgot

[opaque wharf]

Transistor is transistor

[fast pagoda]

niiice

[opaque wharf]

depends are semantically something the package depends on, right? shouldnt it be below package in the tree?
Why? Why not provide first?

[fast pagoda]

i love seeing ascii art in the code blocks

[rigid snow]

ascii art

[fast pagoda]

😻

[rigid snow]

that’s a choice you made

that emoji

[fast pagoda]

why

i use it at work all the time as an innocent heart react so

if there's some crazy context

lmk LMAO

[rigid snow]

there’s not

dw

[opaque sigil]

[rigid snow]

it’s giving 40 year old woman

idk nevermind

[fast pagoda]

lmfao

tbh that's good

because that is what a lot of my coworkers are

[sage crag]

i made a revision

if you dont want to read the file

[tender river]

bwa lisp doesnt mesh well with tabs

[sage crag]

correct

this is why i wanted the other stuff to be outside of package

hm

[opaque wharf]

Btw, can provides be a list?

[uneven pulsar]

Oops, something broke! Error: 404 Requested entity was not found. i give up

NO MODEL WORKING

[sage crag]

no

seems terrible

write multiple packages

[opaque wharf]

So, what about monorepo?

[sage crag]

have two packages

i dont see your point

[opaque wharf]

So have multiple package definition file?

[sage crag]

yeah

[opaque wharf]

Hmm, can package be list then?

[desert plaza]

what am i doing wrong

@handler("entry", fn(): never {
    a := 0xA
    b := 0xB
    memcpy(&b: ^u8, &a: ^u8, 1)
    @syscall(0x3C, 0)
})

memcpy := fn(dest: ^u8, src: ^u8, count: uint): void {
    i := 0
    loop {
        if i == count break
        dest.* := src.*
        dest += 1
    src  += 1
    i    += 1
    }
    return
}

[uneven pulsar]

MY STUPID PYTHON ENV WONT UPDATE GEMINI

[fast pagoda]

gemini is a nodejs application

so you probably need to npm update

[uneven pulsar]

wht

[uneven pulsar]

i am using discord py

dude there no way i am scrapping my code

bruhhhhhh

[fast pagoda]

oh for some reason i thought you said gemini cli

did you specify a single version of gemini in the reqs

[tender river]

you cant specify types with :

just do memcpy(&b, &a, 1)

[fast pagoda]

it wont update it if you put gemini version = 6.9 in your requirements

it will never go above 6.9

[desert plaza]

results in identical errors

[tender river]

do it above but not below

anyway show the errors

also dest.* = src.* not dest.* := src.*

because you're not creating a variable

you're assigning a value to something that already exists

[sage crag]

what is that indentation

[desert plaza]

wdym?

[sage crag]

what are you trying to do by the way

[desert plaza]

is it not obvious?

[sage crag]

no, i cant tell if you are trying to memcpy from a to b or if you are trying to use b and a as absolute addresses

[tender river]

elvyn learning hblang

[desert plaza]

uh the former

[desert plaza]

the TODO: pattern matching isn't particularly helpful is it

[sage crag]

memcpy(@bit_cast(&b), @bit_cast(&a), @size_of(@TypeOf(a))

[sage crag]

its pattern matching because you are using a colon in a place the colon was never intended to be used

[desert plaza]

hmm, would be helpful if that was documented

[sage crag]

it was never documented because casting is documented

actually, fair, this isnt particularly helpful

[desert plaza]

my brain is very slow to understand all these high-level abstractions

[olive sable]

my brain is very slow to understand

[steel mesa]

my brain is very slow

[fast pagoda]

y'all got brains?

damn i missed that one

[desert plaza]

all the examples are nice but doesn't explain anything, just code snippets

[tender river]

because hblang doesnt have any unusual parts about it

all stuff you'd already know if you programmed in just about any systems language

[sage crag]

its a bit unfair, hblang does casting in a non-conventional way

[desert plaza]

i object

[sage crag]

c just lets you pass any old thing

rust has its own rules

[tender river]

rust doesnt have autocasting

it has from

[sage crag]

and as

[tender river]

true

[sage crag]

by the way, you could rewrite this like this:

memcpy := fn(dest: ^u8, src: ^u8, count: uint): void {
  for _ = 0..count {
    dest.* = src.*
    dest += 1
    src += 1
  }
}

or like this

i := 0
while i < count {
  dest.* = src.*
  dest += 1
  src += 1
  i += 1
}

or like this if you are a psycho

for ptr := @bit_cast(dest)..@bit_cast(dest) + count {
    @as(^u8, @bit_cast(ptr)).* = src.*
    src += 1
}

[opaque wharf]

Hmm yes, the source code size is smaller so it must be the most optimal

[sage crag]

unfortunately in this case it is actually more optimal

[opaque wharf]

Dangit

[desert plaza]

what does bit_cast even do

[sage crag]

casts value of type A, size S to a value of type B, size S

so, casts types of the same size

[desert plaza]

why does hblang have types

seems suboptimal

[sage crag]

end := dest + count
while dest < end {
  dest.* = src.*
  dest += 1
  src += 1
}

it would be equivalent to this

[sage crag]

its very much better to have types than to not have types

[opaque wharf]

dest < dest?

[sage crag]

my bad, supposed to read dest < end

[opaque wharf]

dest < end

Yeah

[sage crag]

the more assumptions the compiler can make about your program the more liberties it can take with the codegen

hence more optimisations

[desert plaza]

and what does @as do

[sage crag]

type hint

@as(<Type>, value) tells the compiler that it should be expecting value to be <Type>

then you can @bit_cast() or @int_cast() to make that true or face the compile error

[desert plaza]

so it casts the value to type "bit"?

[sage crag]

wh

[opaque wharf]

u8

Or at least the ptr to it

[desert plaza]

i wish i just had a datasheet or sth

[opaque wharf]

^u8

[sage crag]

main := fn(): void {
  a: uint = 0
  b: ^uint = &a
  a = @bit_cast(b)
}

uint and ^uint are the same size

so you can @bit_cast() a ^uint to a uint and vice versa

[opaque wharf]

We have a spec in AWA5.0

[desert plaza]

that is one of the good things about AWA5.0

[sage crag]

hblang has a spec too, its called a type system

[desert plaza]

why do we need types though?

awaiting response

[sage crag]

what.

without types, a high level language is just assembly

[desert plaza]

that is not true

[sage crag]

even assembly has types

[olive sable]

types are good tho

idk why you wouldnt want them

[rigid snow]

hottest #programming take

[opaque sigil]

[desert plaza]

but all the types make things more complicated in my head

[sage crag]

without types you are limited to doing primitive ops on single size of register

genuinely

[desert plaza]

and?

[opaque wharf]

[sage crag]

what.

[desert plaza]

wdym what

[opaque wharf]

He truly is a CPU

[opaque sigil]

That's not a productive way of getting anything done

[sage crag]

even cpus have more understanding of types than this guy

[olive sable]

i feel like types makes everything easier no???

[opaque sigil]

Not everything but they are a positive in general

[olive sable]

what about them do you find confusing?

[desert plaza]

erm true probably

[olive sable]

you got your bools, ints, floats. usigned stuff too

[opaque wharf]

TIL COBOL is still updated until 2023

[sage crag]

without typing entirely you cant do anything, but with just implicit typing you can do a lot more

[olive sable]

when i write my programs im not gonna spend my time thinking how to do my math in binary

[desert plaza]

not just the types, but like the hblang directives and such supplementing types too

[desert plaza]

why not

[sage crag]

are you asking why we cant rewrite

main := fn(): void {
  a: uint = 0
  b: ^uint = &a
  a = @bit_cast(b)
}

as

main := fn(): void {
  a: uint = 0
  b: ^uint = &a
  a = b
}

[olive sable]

i get that it doesnt seem like it because im doing 4 seperate graphics api's at the same time. but my goal is to actually have a working engine in less than 5 years time

[sage crag]

basically "because i have better things to be doing, like programming"

[desert plaza]

the latter makes more sense, but a and b still have unclear typing

[sage crag]

what

[olive sable]

???

[desert plaza]

wdym

[sage crag]

in no instance, does a or b have unclear typing

and the latter makes less sense

[olive sable]

no, whgat do **you **mean?

[desert plaza]

erm i think i'm making more sense than u guys

[olive sable]

its an unsigned integer, i dont see what part about that is unclear

[sage crag]

@tender river please

[desert plaza]

how many bytes is it though

[sage crag]

8

[olive sable]

i get that i may be unreasonable at times with my programing style, but at least i use types

[sage crag]

or 4 if your system is 32 bit

[opaque wharf]

Now I agree that THAT is a bit cursed lol

[desert plaza]

exactly, it is unclear

[sage crag]

its not unclear at all?

its typed uint

its an unsigned integer

[opaque wharf]

But you can always use u32

[sage crag]

nah, its standard

pointer width int

same as usize in rust

we have u8 u16 u32 u64 uint

[opaque wharf]

I don't want a standard to be implementation defined

[olive sable]

i feel like yall are getting hung up on something that is very standard in a lot of languages

[sage crag]

pointer width int is the most basic variable width integer

dont even get me started on c integers if you think this is cursed

[opaque wharf]

No, I agree C int are something else lol

I am just saying that having a type with variable width is a bit problematic for me too

[olive sable]

its not variable

[desert plaza]

better if it's like this ```rust
main := fn(): void {
a: u64 = 0
b: u64 = &a
a = b
}

[opaque wharf]

Especially for something low level

[sage crag]

what

no

[desert plaza]

it makes sense

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, let's call it implementation defined

[sage crag]

&a is a pointer to a, hence its type is ^u64

[desert plaza]

there you go with your types again

[sage crag]

hello?

[desert plaza]

those are irrelevant

no need

[olive sable]

brother

[opaque wharf]

I think it stems from the use of ^ and &

[olive sable]

aaaa

[desert plaza]

i don't use types when i write code in x86 machine language

[olive sable]

ok

[sage crag]

you do though

[desert plaza]

why would i need them elsewhere

[olive sable]

but you know how you have memory adresses right?

[sage crag]

you just keep them in your head

[opaque wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-gif-27487650

[sage crag]

if you intend to die on the typing hill, you will die on it

[olive sable]

how many bits are those??? it should be 64

[desert plaza]

everything is just sequences of binary guys

there are no types

[sage crag]

on 64 bit systems yes

on 32 bit systems no

[olive sable]

well ye but i doubt hes using a 32 bit system

[sage crag]

it doesnt matter because hblang doesnt have a 32 bit target

lol

[opaque wharf]

x86_64 does not use 64-bit address

[opaque sigil]

It does but the upper 16 are reserved

[desert plaza]

addresses are just numbers bro

[sage crag]

so is your address

and yet

[olive sable]

om

numbers = binary

[opaque wharf]

Ye, so 64-bit address is a bit misleading I think

It's address + some metadata

[olive sable]

still

[opaque sigil]

You do get 64 bits you can manipulate so I think it's okay

[sage crag]

the address space isnt 64 bits, but the address is 64 bits

[opaque wharf]

This is a better wording

[opaque sigil]

True

[sage crag]

generally we would say the pointer width is 64 bits

the address width can be less than the pointer width

[opaque wharf]

That is implementation details no?

[olive sable]

if you really want to think about adresses as numbers. on a 64bit computer you have more available numbers, and if you will try to use those on a 32bit pc it will cry

[sage crag]

x86_64 microcode implementation details yes

[tender river]

awa

[desert plaza]

yeah, that's why i don't complain about sizes

but types though

[olive sable]

your name is unsigned orms

[desert plaza]

u orm s

[olive sable]

what about them?

[desert plaza]

abstract types are confusing

i need to know address and size of all data in my program

[olive sable]

but they're not abstract

[opaque wharf]

People complain that #programming goes off topic. Look at what happens when we are on topic

[opaque wharf]

They are abstract tho Sam

[olive sable]

you easily can

[desert plaza]

it would help a lot if hblang had documentation for all the parts of the language

[sage crag]

we dont generally refer to primitive types as abstract

abstract types are ones that have opaque values

[desert plaza]

types only ever makes the compiler complain, they don't really help me

[opaque wharf]

Well, when we compare high level language to what uorms is doing then types are abstract

[sage crag]

primitive types arent abstract, they are concrete

they map directly to a value

[opaque wharf]

That is from type theory? Because I don't study it so I only know some terms

[tender river]

its not from type theory

[sage crag]

i know about as much type theory as i can quote names of type theorists

[tender river]

you can get an address with & and get the size of a type with @size_of

[opaque sigil]

Types help you avoid doing really stupid things so yes they better make the compiler complain when that happens

[desert plaza]

erm hm

[opaque sigil]

No program is better than an utterly broken one

[sage crag]

this i can agree with

compile error is infinitely better than runtime error

[desert plaza]

i prefer troubleshooting my programs, rather than troubleshooting the language i'm using

[sage crag]

you are only troubleshooting the language if the compiler crashes

[opaque wharf]

I think I'm better off designing some electronics again

[sage crag]

a compiler crash is different to a compile error

[desert plaza]

when the compiler refuses to compile and give errors, i can't troubleshoot the binary

[opaque sigil]

That's why I don't use rust as much anymore

[sage crag]

there is an error message???

it tells you what you did wrong??????

and you can use it to fix the errors???????????????

[desert plaza]

error messages unclear

[opaque sigil]

More unclear than some broken binary?

[tardy wraith]

is there some error code?

[desert plaza]

yuh

[sage crag]

your error message was unclear because you didnt know language syntax

[opaque sigil]

Nah that's cope

[desert plaza]

correct

that's the problem

if only hblang had good docs

[sage crag]

or if you

just read them

at all

i admit this is not a clear error

[opaque wharf]

Bime to bother the god of mischief again?

[sage crag]

colon is used for pattern matching

[sage crag]

im not going to bother him with this

[desert plaza]

btw bime*

[sage crag]

this is an issue solved by forcing docs in people's face aggressively apparently

[desert plaza]

but where are they

[tender river]

nobody is going to write docs for a prototype

[opaque wharf]

Thanks for catching that one

[tardy wraith]

maybe that's helpful idk:

https://github.com/jakubDoka/hblang

[sage crag]

old link

https://git.ablecorp.eu/mlokis/hblang

[desert plaza]

ig that's fair

[sage crag]

process the examples. again, i agree these arent clear. i am writing a pr to fix them with comments.

[desert plaza]

makes it hard for me to learn

[sage crag]

if you read it, you can see struct {.l: u16; .r: u16} is going to have a size of two u16s or, the same as 1 u32

you can see the return type of main is u32

hence @bit_cast() is casting between two distinct types of the same size

[olive sable]

who is the god of mischief?

[olive sable]

ye idk. i wont mention C++ types cuz those are horendous, but openGL's types are always the same

[opaque wharf]

Loki

I guess trickster is a better word?

[olive sable]

on cpu, on gpu, on a samsung smart fridge, an int is always 32 bits

in opengl

[desert plaza]

hmm, y is it called bit_cast

the bit part

[olive sable]

cuz you cast the bits?

[sage crag]

the bits

have been casted

hence

bit cast

[desert plaza]

but like

[tender river]

because its casted bitwise, the value's data is the same but the type changes

[desert plaza]

so the only thing changed is the metadata (type), not the actual data

[olive sable]

yes

[desert plaza]

how pointless

[olive sable]

oh

[desert plaza]

if the data is the data, then why the types

[sage crag]

i genuinely cant tell if you are trolling at this point

[olive sable]

because math

[sage crag]

im having an aneurysm

[desert plaza]

relax, we're having a constructive conversation about types

[tender river]

in C, (int64*)0 + 1 is 8 but (int8*)0 + 1 is 1

types in fact affect semantics of operations

if you want to take the same data but interpret it under different semantics, thats what bit_cast is for

[opaque wharf]

Konii just gave up and play osu

[desert plaza]

oh

too bad

[olive sable]

doing 5/2 gives a diffrent result as an int than a float for example

[desert plaza]

are you casting zero as pointers there?

or

[tender river]

yes, that valid in c

[desert plaza]

uhh

[tender river]

also in C, (u8)(i8)(-1) is different from (u32)(i32)(-1)

[opaque wharf]

TypeScript go even further and make sure the type is turing complete

[desert plaza]

is there a typeless language

[tender river]

javascript

[olive sable]

python

[opaque wharf]

COBOL

[tender river]

well, not really since js still has types, just not static ones

[desert plaza]

but python is worse

[olive sable]

then stop complainign

[desert plaza]

it has invisible types

[olive sable]

yes

[desert plaza]

so it has types

[olive sable]

or does it?

a type is a social construct

[desert plaza]

hmm

[sage crag]

there is no high level language that doesnt have types

even bf has types

[desert plaza]

what

[tardy wraith]

types in python are checked at runtime so i mean no high level language for sure to be typeless

[sage crag]

they are simply implicit

[desert plaza]

how does bf have types?

i've been casually writing a bnf for an optimal programming framework

with no types

no needlessness

so basically

a language that just writes the bytes i manually specify to a file, but the bytes are written in hex, and are inside of these blocks that can be addressed

[opaque wharf]

@tender river you're gonna love this
https://github.com/type-challenges/type-challenges

[desert plaza]

and like

[olive sable]

in my own opinion, even if you do it bitwise you still have to think about the amount of bits available and how they will be used. so i still think about it as a type

[opaque wharf]

My keyboard is not keyboarding today wtf

[tardy wraith]

assembly

:>

idk

[desert plaza]

i can write machine code like usual, but with quality of life improvements

[tender river]

isnt ts type level programming just prolog

[opaque wharf]

Basically

[desert plaza]

it would be more optimal than assembly

[tardy wraith]

C language

[desert plaza]

C is not optimal

[tardy wraith]

ik

im joking

[sage crag]

under who's metric

[desert plaza]

me

[tardy wraith]

like when u write it bad

then its not optimal

[sage crag]

when you can write a vulkan renderer in machine code, come back and tell c it's suboptimal

[tardy wraith]

but if its written good isn't it the best?

[sage crag]

[desert plaza]

C requires a compiler

[olive sable]

the most basic example i can think of is the diffrence between a signed and unsigned integer.
if you try to use a singed integer as an unsigend integer you're gonna get a number that is 2147483648 too high

[desert plaza]

a high-level compiler

[desert plaza]

hmm

[tardy wraith]

im a java nerd so I suggest u use java :>

[desert plaza]

writing machine code by hand is more optimal than java

[olive sable]

no

[desert plaza]

yesh

[tardy wraith]

naur

[desert plaza]

yuhuh

[opaque wharf]

Backus Naur?

[olive sable]

if i make my programs in machine code id be working on this game engine for 20 years

raw machine code is for people that make very short programs, or are clinically insane

or just jobless i guess

[tardy wraith]

maybe make your programming language

[olive sable]

no

[tardy wraith]

it was for uorms.b

[olive sable]

id rather use hblang than make my very own

ah

lmao

[desert plaza]

fair enough, but the learning value is good

[tardy wraith]

lmao

idk what is hblang is it good?

[olive sable]

no clue

[tender river]

you dont get to speak of learning value if you refuse to go beyond machine code

[olive sable]

konii said i should use it once lily is not broken

[desert plaza]

well, if i just had a fukin BNF for hblang i could learn it by implementing a compiler, right?

[tender river]

not really

[desert plaza]

y

[tardy wraith]

aslo do someone have here experience of doing a LLM model? I wanna know what is the best shall i go with C# or with what?

*also

[tender river]

because a language is not its parser

[desert plaza]

wdym

[opaque wharf]

hblang is the one to talk

[tender river]

the language exists even without its grammar

[desert plaza]

what

[tender river]

the grammar only exists as a human readable representation

hblang is 20k lines of zig code not even counting zydis

its not something you can casually implement as long as you have a bnf

[opaque wharf]

That is true yes

[desert plaza]

because it is very complex?

[opaque wharf]

But still, the spec of hblang as of now is whatever the parser decide is correct

[tender river]

any language beyond the 1950s is complex to implement

[desert plaza]

but a bnf would be very useful

[tender river]

it would not

[desert plaza]

why not

[tender river]

because syntactically valid doesn't mean semantically valid

[desert plaza]

example?

[tender river]

5 = 5 is parsed by the compiler but rejected during the semantic analysis phase

thats the literal simplest example

"".a is another example

[desert plaza]

right

[tender river]

"".len gives the string's length, "".a is syntactically valid but not semantically valid

[hoary lion]

did I do daily morn

[desert plaza]

a bnf would define that

[tender river]

it would not

[desert plaza]

how not

[tender river]

thats not the job of a grammar

because

a := ""
a.len

is valid

a := ""
a.a

is not

thats what types are for, they're for tracking what a value is semantically

[opaque wharf]

I think BNF would catch that chay

[tender river]

it would not

[desert plaza]

yuh, and the ".a" part would be invalid according to the grammar, right?

[tender river]

it would be valid, because .a is valid for something else that is not a string

[tardy wraith]

isn't bnf a way of writing rules for: what strings are valid in language and how are the syntax structured, so like literally it cannot check the sematics

[tender river]

bnf is just a formal grammar thats literally what it is

it doesnt know anything about what the language means

[tardy wraith]

ye

[desert plaza]

chay, are you saying it would be impossible to write a bnf that catches that example

[tender river]

thats the definition of a formal grammar - it governs what you can write regardless of its meaning

[tender river]

yes

[desert plaza]

erm hmm

[opaque wharf]

Oh right it would not. I am thinking of BNF for each type not the whole language lmao

[tardy wraith]

its liek a sheet of music for musicians but its for programming language right?

[opaque wharf]

Wait

No, it can still define that too

[tender river]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus–Naur_form

just so we're on the same page

[tender river]

its something akin to parsing html with regex

[opaque wharf]

Ye, I know BNF but just never write it so I am thinking of how

[tender river]

https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454

[opaque wharf]

I just read RFC to implement stuff

[desert plaza]

hblang RFC when?

[desert plaza]

so what is ".a" valid for

[tender river]

x: struct { .a: i32 } = .(0)
x.a

note that formal grammar cant describe like, literally any language's meaning

thats the topic of a separate field of study called operational semantics

[desert plaza]

hmm

interesting

[tender river]

additionally, for catching things like this type systems are implemented - the typing rules say something like "if a is a string, then a.len has the type uint", and if theres no typing rule that matches a particular expression, the expression is rejected

[hoary lion]

im not good at type topics but are we talking about linters

[tender river]

we're talking about why a language is not its grammar

[desert plaza]

compilers and bnf

[tender river]

its like in english, i can construct a sentence thats grammatically correct but is utter meaningless nonsense

its the same for programming languages

[hoary lion]

makes sense ig

i dont really touch compilers yet

this might be a sign to actually learn c

[desert plaza]

i think i would understand your point better if i made a compiler in machine code or assembly maybe

[hoary lion]

(i dropped at pointers )

[tender river]

if you actually want to learn about stuff like that academically i can link you some books but suffice to say its not really relevant to machine code

[desert plaza]

you can link me stuff sure

it is an interesting topic

[opaque wharf]

Evil has posted

[rigid snow]

smh so late

[opaque wharf]

I don't have twitter man

My social media is a lemmy account and discord, Youtube if you count it as social media

[rigid snow]

based

being on discord is cringe tho

[hoary lion]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1220556661836484608/1220556725640499230/EvilGifofCringe.gif

[olive sable]

ok so

i cant get webgpu to work

[hoary lion]

ugh notion app is so clunky

[nocturne olive]

On which browser?

[hoary lion]

[olive sable]

i havent reached the browser part yet

just wont compile

[tender river]

[sage crag]

a

w

a w a

[sage crag]

actually ive decided

nevermind im undecided

maybe i want to sleep maybe i dont

hm

[hoary lion]

https://tenor.com/view/yume-nikki-awawawawawa-dancing-madotsuki-meme-gif-10015888597027776222

[olive sable]

its 22.24 for u rn

not too late

[sage crag]

but

if i start something

i will awake for another 8 hour

[olive sable]

hmmm

[tender river]

what if i remind you to go sleep

[olive sable]

i always think "another episde is only 20 min" but then i end up binging 4 seasons. so

[tender river]

this is so real though i never end up being productive if i dont stay up late

[sage crag]

yeh yeh

[olive sable]

ye

[sage crag]

i want to work on petal

but awa

wawa

im going to explode the sun

more news at 3FBE

[tender river]

which one

[sage crag]

oh nyo i left my window open

the bugs

miyagi and sendai san would never leave the window open

[olive sable]

when i read awawawawawa i think of the sound effect when yoshi dies

[hoary lion]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/894865038895091743/1401376224630149280/12907412_142ca.gif

[tender river]

i would never leave the window open, mostly because i never open it (its cold outside)

[hoary lion]

cant be only me lol

[sage crag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iZsz0K_OxA
it made me think of this

a mosquito just flew into my fan

i think it is gone

[olive sable]

[sage crag]

it made a buzzing noise when it hit the fan

or that might have been the fan

[hoary lion]

disintegrated

mosquito deserves it tho

[tender river]

the fan does ot

[olive sable]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgUs6wpdE1I
the windows movie maker text

[sage crag]

waaaa

[olive sable]

but ye this is what i hear whn i see awawawawawa

[tender river]

why am i sleepy its only 4:30am

[olive sable]

that was fast

[hoary lion]

make this the national anthem for #programming

[sage crag]

im fast

[sage crag]

you

why are you reminding me to go to sleep

i should be reminding you

[olive sable]

[tender river]

no its still early

[tender river]

what.

firefox has tab groups now?

[uneven pulsar]

epic failure

[olive sable]

i stole someone else's code and that seems to be working

[uneven pulsar]

I wish if I can make my own ai

but rn poor:((

[olive sable]

making an ai doenst necesarily mean you have to spend money

[rigid snow]

eectricity bill

[olive sable]

solar

[rigid snow]

investing in solar panels costs even more

than just paying the bill

[olive sable]

well ye, but if you already have them

if you dont have a gpu you'l need to buy one

we're being pedantic here

[rigid snow]

[sage crag]

[olive sable]

works native now, but still wont compile with emscripten where im actualyl trying to use webgpu

[opaque wharf]

New Welch Lab video just dropped
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx7hirqgfuU

[olive sable]

chatgpt says that ive reached the limit of messages, and then i press retry and it just talks about something completely diffrent

time to use gemini

[hoary lion]

how about claude-chan

[olive sable]

idk

never used it before

[hoary lion]

its better

worth the money

[olive sable]

money?

i aint paying for all that

[hoary lion]

well tbf i dont pay either

[rigid snow]

claude is great if you're not the one paying

[hoary lion]

cause max is like the

baseline

[opaque wharf]

That is true for anything in general

Free stuff = good

[rigid snow]

there are things that are great even if you're paying

[hoary lion]

well just like that one word "some animals are more rightful than others", claude is much better not paying all that dollar bills

i forgor the quote tho

[rigid snow]

claude falling under that is debatable

very overpriced

[hoary lion]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/894865038895091743/1401376224630149280/12907412_142ca.gif

the normal subscription aint worth the money

too small quota

[rigid snow]

bless openrouter

vendor lock in

and nowadays ai subscriptions are a scam

[hoary lion]

the max is worth it

when you have a team

that could milk opus tokens

pretty sure we had to use like 10 grands if it weren't max

[rigid snow]

have they not changed things? i swear i heard they have

either the limits or the pricing

[hoary lion]

not yet

next month afaik

a totally humble usage

can't believe how someone manages to use that much with sonnet

[rigid snow]

Sent from my iPhone

[opaque wharf]

Depending on the app complexity, hiring a competent dev would be cheaper lmao

[hoary lion]

fortunately that is an estimated price based on token usage so

max clutches in again

with 200$ I can use 2k

[olive sable]

i gipe up on trying to use webgpu

[hoary lion]

[olive sable]

the web plebians will need to be happy with webgl for now

[opaque wharf]

It is a new API after all

[olive sable]

it works fine on local, but that is exaclty the place where i can use vulkan

and vulkan outperforms webgpu

[urban tangle]

just got a used 3060 for 100 dollars, bout to test how much better it can run LLMs compared to my rx 6600

[opaque wharf]

LMAO, the problem in the video is about border between Belgium and Netherlands

[olive sable]

nice deal

[olive sable]

waht video?

[opaque wharf]

And I have to ask, why tf did a country have a border fully enclosed in another country

[opaque wharf]

This, I've just finished watching it

[olive sable]

[olive sable]

iirc we just asked them "hey in which country you wanne go" and it just ended up liek this

the beautiful belgian city of Baarle

[prime ridge]

Average Welch labs chad

[olive sable]

 The nationality of the inhabitants is determined by the position of the front door. A story tells that a Belgian displaced his front door to avoid getting Dutch nationality.

[prime ridge]

Why are so many weird math problems based around either Netherlands or Belgium 😂

[olive sable]

[prime ridge]

dikstras or however u spell it

[olive sable]

altho nobody likes to admit it, we are kinda the center of europe

[rigid snow]

enclaves are still very much a thing, vatican and san marino come to mind

it’s not like a thing that happened once

[opaque wharf]

I guess it's hard to have enclave when you are an island nation huh

[prime ridge]

All countries in Europe get along super well with eachother 😄

[torpid coral]

Hello, can someone recommend some theoretical materials for studying neural networks? I'm trying to get into it gradually and... even something comes out, but I want to be confident in my knowledge and have some kind of "support" in case of something

[rigid snow]

or an exclave in this case

ai will finally be useful when i’ll be able to give it a topic and it’ll generate a 20 minute manim video essay to fall asleep to

that has to be possible already

[opaque wharf]

Real and true

[olive sable]

uhhh

[gritty dust]

wait ur from belgum

CRAP I cant spell

[olive sable]

[gritty dust]

belgium

FRICK

[opaque wharf]

Where have you been?

[olive sable]

i am from belgium yes

[opaque wharf]

That's like, #programming lore 101

[gritty dust]

yeah I just dont remember stuff

[opaque wharf]

Scroll up a bit. I've just shared a video about the related topic

[gritty dust]

alive, and relaxing on summer break idk

[torpid coral]

Ok thanks

[opaque wharf]

The other channel that I'd recommend is 3Blue1Brown

Both of that channel will have further reading material in the video description

Welch Lab older videos even have self study material

[torpid coral]

I see 3B1B, good videos

Thanks again

[opaque wharf]

Sure, you're welcome

[rigid snow]

@claude just make a fucking .exe and give it to me. you stupid fucking smelly nerd

[olive sable]

yall are gonna hate me for this

[opaque wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-gif-27487650

But honestly, not the worst

I've seen worse

[olive sable]

i cant use that for the #ifdefs in global tho, and i want consistency

so ill probably remove them

im done witht his shit for now tho

ill continue with the vulkan vertex buffer stuff in an hour or 4

[hoary lion]

ooh

welch labs post

[iron dirge]

I made a stupid browser game a while back and now there's a chance someone may play it I originally made it on mobile so I had to double check that PC controls actually work. In checking for some reason the mouse wouldn't show up on screen so I added a custom mouse pointer. (Luckily I was still able to understand how everything was set up) But somehow that fixed the pointer not being visible. It's always confusing when software suddenly decides it's not actually logical.

[midnight sigil]

[hoary lion]

[olive sable]

aight i finished binging overloard

now i can finaly get to the movie

[opaque wharf]

That's rare for you to not trying to finish the game engine

[olive sable]

i got a bit demotivated after seeing i had to use yet another graphics api if i wanted vulkan-like performance in browser

but ive decided to put webgpu on the backburner

[amber fractal]

I know I'm late but I'm surprised OpenAI could count to 5

[south whale]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-blast-off-launch-cat-jumping-into-camera-gif-6639037559618288527

[opaque sigil]

[dire trout]

I completely fucked up the programming exms

fuck

my mind blanked out

on everything

I'm fucked

[opaque wharf]

Here have a cat

[amber fractal]

Cat

[dire trout]

I don't understand

I did extremely well in creating like 3 different programs with the same concept during practice

and now I fuck up

[olive sable]

[opaque wharf]

It happens

[olive sable]

you gotta think positivly

[dire trout]

the issue is not 'oh I forgot a certain function' it's 'oh fuck I forgot a entire fucking concept'

that's what I'm frustrated about

[nocturne olive]

Gonna assume 12GB 3060, it should be able to run 50% bigger models, or the same models 50% faster

[opaque wharf]

Mhmm, classic panic during the exam. You'll get used to it

[dire trout]

rip 25% of my grade

[opaque sigil]

Damn I wish exams were only 25% of my grade

[dire trout]

I know it's not a big deal but the thing I want needs to have a high mark

[olive sable]

the movie was great

10/10

[midnight sigil]

why r u in programming

[olive sable]

caibi out here gatekeeping #programming

[midnight sigil]

I don't think savage should appear here

[nocturne olive]

Apparently my remote audio latency is about 3s, particularly silly

[true hemlock]

r/hardwaregore