programming

[real sierra]

my gripe is that most sorting algorithms completely sort the array before you can access it

[opaque wharf]

Mfker auto mod

[sage crag]

the sorted elements are streamed rather than all produced

[real sierra]

but if im just looking for the minimum element in a list which satisfies some condition why cant i get the sorted elements as they are produced

[sage crag]

lazy like an iterator

[real sierra]

though actually

...in my use case i wonder if its better to filter first and then sort

[opaque sigil]

at that point just use a min heap

[real sierra]

when the array comes from a builtin thats not an option

cant fix screeps

cant even fix myself

[opaque sigil]

damn

[sage crag]

shr you dont need fixing

[real sierra]

ty

[opaque sigil]

have you tried selection sort before writing it off

[real sierra]

O(n^2)

written off

[opaque wharf]

Fixing is neutering right?

[sage crag]

catastrophic failure

[opaque sigil]

smh

[real sierra]

always remember that if you could catch segfaults in C, you could have an O(log n) strlen implementation that only failed 1 in 256 times

[opaque sigil]

you can catch segfaults

[real sierra]

perfect

my next c project will be so fast

[unkempt citrus]

Even lazier sort is possible

1. The list is sorted
2. Oh its not? Well its sorted the way it should be sorted, even if it doesn't align with what you want

[sage crag]

do you know how long the kernel takes to handle segfault

[opaque wharf]

Now that you mention filtering before sorting, isn't it possible to do both at once?

[real sierra]

do you know how long my string is

[sage crag]

like some kind of.... filter_sort

[sage crag]

dunno, havent segfaulted yet

[real sierra]

its a genius algorithm but ive never implemented it

[sage crag]

segmentation sort

[real sierra]

you try accessing the string at indices of increasing powers of two until you segfault, then you know you're past the end of the string

[opaque wharf]

I mean when doing sorting we need to get every element anyways, so when we found element to be discarded we just discard it

[real sierra]

then you do a binary search between that index and the one you tried before it

segfault = past string end

no segfault = in string

zero = string end

strlen

[opaque wharf]

Same energy as sleep sort

[opaque sigil]

hear me out, i have this revolutionary idea

[opaque wharf]

Sleep for as long as the element magnitude

[opaque sigil]

what if

[sage crag]

what about if the memory past the string has write permissions

[opaque wharf]

No

[opaque sigil]

we store the length alongside the buffer

[real sierra]

C's fault

[opaque sigil]

O(1) strlen

[real sierra]

stamp it "won't fix" and move on

[sage crag]

we could call it a slice

[real sierra]

how did you get the length in the first place to store it

[sage crag]

when strings are built its very hard to not know their length

either at compile time or at runtime

[opaque wharf]

Deliberate amnesia

[real sierra]

ig at compile time you can store a length with every string literal

[opaque sigil]

i think we should write a cuda kernel to sort the array on the gpu

[sage crag]

the only times you dont know are when recieving external cstrings

[real sierra]

mfw "Compilation failed: string length exceeds MAX_INT"

[sage crag]

this exists

bitonic sort or something

[opaque sigil]

it does (i've written way too many of those)

[opaque wharf]

Something something parallel reduction

[opaque sigil]

yeah

it's pretty cool

[sage crag]

this is actually a good thing

strlen would not work on this to begin with

[opaque wharf]

Oh wait, thats min-max

[real sierra]

meanwhile in javascript

[opaque sigil]

i mean it works

[sage crag]

i believe this is how most modern languages handle it. i.e. some long time ago now, hblang gained slices, and we replaced string literals from pointers to null terminated strings to slices

[opaque sigil]

honestly kinda based

[real sierra]

couldnt have just

you know

used its address..?

[sage crag]

^u8 -> []u8

[opaque wharf]

On JS engine? No

[opaque sigil]

v8 does weird things, wouldn't suprise me if the address changes

[sage crag]

do i hear garbage collector

[opaque wharf]

This

The power of JIT baby

[real sierra]

if js has garbage collection then why isnt it collecting js itself

checkmate frontend devs

[opaque sigil]

mfw *const [X:0]u8

[real sierra]

frontend devs: "we need to keep ram usage low for the end user!"

backend devs: malloc(2^30)

[sage crag]

one day glibc is going to sneak a "no virtual mem" flag into the mmap call and bring down a million servers

[unkempt citrus]

If JS is so good why is TS written in Go

or being migrated to it anyway

[sage crag]

because TS written in TS was too painful

[opaque sigil]

200k loc typescript.js

[real sierra]

building turret in my screep room to keep them safe

[sage crag]

ts.ts

real

[real sierra]

but they arent building the turret

they're too distracted upgrading the walls

[sage crag]

adhd screeps

[real sierra]

well its kinda my fault

for RCL 2 i told them 10k hp is fine for walls and ramparts

at RCL 3, that goes up to 100k

gonna take them ages to upgrade these all tho

profiling time

[opaque wharf]

See, this is called full time job

[real sierra]

nah

its ✨ fun profiling ✨

[opaque wharf]

Silly Shiro, all you have to do is just write every single possible case and how to handle it. Like this

[real sierra]

miners

something in that code is going really slow

which doesnt really surprise me because it's the first code i wrote

[opaque wharf]

They mine bitcoin

[real sierra]

but it might also be the cache warming up

lets play find the slow

const stats = require('stats');
const util = require('util');
const creeputil = require('util.creeps');

module.exports = {

    run: function(creep) {
        if (!creep.memory.state) {
            creep.memory.state = 'mining';
        }
        if (creep.memory.state == 'mining') {
            if (!creep.memory.mySource) {
                let sources = util.assignedRoom(creep).find(FIND_SOURCES_ACTIVE);
                if (sources.length > 0) {
                    creep.memory.mySource = sources[util.getRandomInt(sources.length)].id;
                }
            }
            const source = Game.getObjectById(creep.memory.mySource);
            let status = creep.harvest(source);
            if (status == ERR_NOT_IN_RANGE) {
                status = creep.moveTo(source);
                if (status == ERR_NO_PATH) {
                    delete creep.memory.mySource;
                    return true;  // idle
                }
            } else if (status == OK) {
                stats.addedResource(RESOURCE_ENERGY, creep.getActiveBodyparts(WORK) * 2);
                if (creep.store.getFreeCapacity(RESOURCE_ENERGY) == 0) {
                    creep.memory.state = 'depositing';
                }
            }
        } else if (creep.memory.state == 'depositing') {
            let structures = creeputil.getDepositables(util.assignedRoom(creep));
            if (structures.length > 0) {
                let status = creep.transfer(structures[0], RESOURCE_ENERGY);
                if (status == ERR_NOT_IN_RANGE) {
                    status = creep.moveTo(structures[0]);
                }
            } else {
                return true;  // idle
            }
            if (creep.store.getUsedCapacity(RESOURCE_ENERGY) == 0) {
                creep.memory.state = 'mining';
            }
        }
    }
    
};

[opaque sigil]

==

[real sierra]

yea yea string comparisons should be ===

i was remembering how to js ok

[opaque wharf]

I suggest rather than randomly assigning them you use the Memory to track which has been assigned

[real sierra]

[opaque wharf]

So you could do increment rather than random

[real sierra]

sources can have more than one miner assigned

it depends how many empty tiles happen to be around the source

[opaque wharf]

Ah ok

[real sierra]

the extra calculations didnt seem worth it

random is fast

[opaque wharf]

I'm too used to using CSPRNG from windows.crypto

[real sierra]

ive broken up the profiling by game tick

since there's only one extremely slow unit per tick, i think it might be a cache warmup

which means this is probably the issue:

getDepositables: cache.wrap(function(room) {
        const prio = {};
        prio[STRUCTURE_STORAGE] = 4;
        prio[STRUCTURE_CONTAINER] = 3;
        prio[STRUCTURE_EXTENSION] = 1;
        prio[STRUCTURE_SPAWN] = 0;
        prio[STRUCTURE_TOWER] = 2;
        return room.find(FIND_STRUCTURES, {
           filter: function(s) {
               return s.store && s.store.getFreeCapacity(RESOURCE_ENERGY) > 0;
           } 
        }).sort((a, b) => (prio[a.structureType] - prio[b.structureType]));
    }),

any ideas on speeding that up

or

[opaque wharf]

If that structure doesn't change, pre warmup the cache

[real sierra]

does that make sense to do

idk what the difference would be

id still be calculating it, no?

[opaque wharf]

I already said the assumption. If that resulting computation doesn't change, pre warmup will help alleviate the sporadic spike if that function is truly the bottleneck

[real sierra]

oh i see, do it for profiling purposes

ok

[opaque wharf]

So the spike only happens once

At the beginning

[real sierra]

didnt fix

[opaque wharf]

So it was not the culprit, probably

[real sierra]

thats not good

idk what the issue is then

cant find a good reason that the miners would be slower

confused

[opaque wharf]

Is the move to function perform pathfinding?

[real sierra]

depends

screeps will cache a previously-found path

for a few ticks

but otherwise yes

every creep is performing pathfinding tho so

[opaque wharf]

I'm looking at it from mobile so I may have missed something lol

[real sierra]

i dont think you did

im equally lost as to how this is the most expensive role

sometimes i see a single miner using over 2 CPU

how

im glad i profiled lmfao

[opaque wharf]

What happen if more creeps are assigned than available free slot to gather the resources?

[real sierra]

you're right

[opaque wharf]

Because from random chance, it may be possible that it happen

[real sierra]

it is the pathfinding

i just profiled the moveTo function specifically

[opaque wharf]

The most expensive algorithm.

if (goingToCrash) {
  dont();
}

[sage crag]

do they not pregenerate pathfinding data

[warped narwhal]

if going to crash

looks inside

The halting problem

[real sierra]

no path mesh or anything of the sort that i can tell

they use A* with jump point search

[opaque wharf]

I mean, if they are competing for a path then it needs to be recomputed no?

Looks like it is a dynamic graph

[real sierra]

i think im underusing this function https://docs.screeps.com/api/#Room.getEventLog

im tracking a number of these stats on my own

but if they're already being tracked here

i should probably be accessing that instead

but thats me getting sidetracked, pathfinding issue first

1 CPU worth of not doing shit

WHAT DA HELL

HOW

you know...

i could probably

[opaque wharf]

Pathfinding fail to find path so idle it is

[real sierra]

so

[opaque wharf]

Bloom filter

[real sierra]

the current way im laying out my stuff is

im just building every utility structure in a big circle around the spawn

i could probably

precompute paths from outlying important points (room controller, energy sources)

to within the vicinity of this central circle

and then when a creep is visiting an external structure, they follow the precomputed path

and when visiting an internal structure, they follow the relevant path back to it if not already in the interior, and then pathfind from there to their desired structure

[opaque wharf]

I shall be known as

[real sierra]

cache.wrap(computed_fn)

[opaque wharf]

And yeah, your solution should work. Isn't that basically just creating a virtual road? So they don't have to find the way on their own

[real sierra]

yeah

but i wont actually implement it

because its too hard

[tender geode]

🎂🇸 🇭 🇮 🇷 🇴

[real sierra]

screw it, lets make full use of that html console shall we

[opaque wharf]

That's html table right?

[real sierra]

no im removing this, this is dumb

but i might do something like this in a less hacky fashion for email notifs if i ever set them up

i went around limiting the max cpu use to ~1.0, and the max rooms checked to 1, on almost all the moveTo calls

the resultant speedup has been incredible

my baseline has dropped about 50%

ok

how do i make a good attacking AI

i think a scout unit would be smart to invent

because you can only see rooms with an owned creep/structure in

i could just walk a creep to a room i wanna take and then cache everything about it

[opaque wharf]

Yep, this is da wae

[real sierra]

but once i do that

whats next

[opaque wharf]

Well, claim the room

[real sierra]

i need a metric of how strong they are

to know how many forces i need to win

[opaque wharf]

That's the function of the scout

[real sierra]

the scout sees them

but how do i enumerate that strength

all the enemy creeps and stuctures are an abstract notion of strength

[opaque wharf]

Hmmm, by path finding and unit type

[real sierra]

i need it boiled down to a number

[opaque wharf]

How hard it is for the path finder to find the path

But then it would be expensive af

[real sierra]

theres a good chance there is no path

[opaque wharf]

That too

[real sierra]

ramparts are only traversible by the owner's creeps

and i more mean combat strength

than the strength of static fortifications

[opaque wharf]

You could also count the number of structures in cluster

The higher the number and the more spread out they are, the stronger it is

[real sierra]

ehhh

[stray dragon]

bring 2x the attack force of the estimated defense force in an area

[real sierra]

roads would inflate strength

[opaque wharf]

Add weight to the structure type

[real sierra]

you have all of these creeps with these body types? i brought all of that times two

honestly a valid option

i could actually do that

[stray dragon]

this is what they did with sieges

[opaque wharf]

[stray dragon]

it's genuinely a strategy

[real sierra]

this is genuinely an option

ur not wrong

probably too expensive tho

the fortifications do really matter too

creeps in a rampart can attack but any incoming damage is taken by the rampart

[stray dragon]

more units attacking = better value usually (unless they're grouped up and get blasted)

[real sierra]

which is kinda op

i mean

[stray dragon]

add ramparts and such to the "enemy forces" value and only attack if you predict that your attack value is higher

[real sierra]

i think the strength metric i would use for a creep is

dps * health

what are the units on that

[stray dragon]

rampart adds to health

[real sierra]

square HP per second

the reason for that is

the time a creep lives while under attack is proportional to its health

so multiplying that by dps will be proportional to its total lifetime damage output

[stray dragon]

yeah makes sense

[real sierra]

so dps * health for every creep, then sum

[opaque wharf]

Can screep attack more than one screep?

[real sierra]

nope

worse, creeps will auto-retalliate when attacked

[opaque wharf]

Okay, that seems a good metric then

[real sierra]

actually, yes for ranged attacks

i also dont know how to integrate healing into this model

[opaque wharf]

[real sierra]

seems like a good start tho

[stray dragon]

honestly i'd say get the combat method down (positioning, when to heal, when to retreat, etc) and then adjust the "how much more forces than them do we need" ratio until it works well or until you work out a better solution

[real sierra]

just get the combat method down! ez!

[stray dragon]

know yourself and know the enemy and you shall not fear the results of a hundred battles

[opaque wharf]

Do you know in advance how many of each unit type?

Like how many are capable of ranged attack for example

[stray dragon]

in this case, why judge the enemy's strength before you know your own strength?

scouting is probably a good start though

[real sierra]

if i get the scout in, i can check all of it

i can use scout.room.find(FIND_HOSTILE_CREEPS) to get a list of enemy units

[stray dragon]

"localized strength" will probably be what you compare to find when and where to attack though

[real sierra]

and then enemyUnit.getActiveBodyparts(ATTACK) for example

[real sierra]

the localized strength in question

[unkempt citrus]

study real world military tactics

or sc2 tactics

[opaque wharf]

[unkempt citrus]

real world tactics might require too much independent thought

unless youstudy like russian strategy which tends to be more centralised

but russia

[real sierra]

please keep in mind that my "real world military tactics" need to be written in javascript and run in at most 20ms

[stray dragon]

i mean more the current defense in the area + the logistics and time it takes for reinforcements to arrive when i'm talking about localized strength

[unkempt citrus]

yeah stick to sc2 tactics then

[real sierra]

ok lets get the scale straight

a creep attack part increases the creep's dps by 30HP/t melee

creeps can have max 50 parts, but some need to be movement for it to move, and some are ideally tough for hp

so lets say your maximum melee dps is, with a really good creep, something like 600HP/t

the maximum hp of a wall is

300,000,000

[stray dragon]

oh

[unkempt citrus]

No breaching parts designed to take down walls?

[real sierra]

if you get your level high enough, there do exist nukes

you might be able to dismantle walls?

[stray dragon]

so a proper defense will bog you down for a long time

[real sierra]

ok so

if you use dismantle instead of attack

(which requires WORK parts instead of ATTACK parts so you would need a specialized unit for this)

you can get 50HP/t instead of 30HP/t per part

[stray dragon]

wow

stunning

[real sierra]

ikr

[real sierra]

yes

[stray dragon]

localized defense in that case then would be a question of how many units the enemy can dedicate to you

[unkempt citrus]

yeah but you can have multiple work though right

[real sierra]

currently the screeps world runs at about 1 tick per 3 seconds

so with 600HP/t against a 300,000,000HP wall

it would take you

[unkempt citrus]

I'm thinking you would design 6ish classes of units

Frontline high HP low damage
Midline mid HP mid damage
Backline low hp high ranged damage

then specialty units like breachers, artillery flankers

[real sierra]

just over 17 days to get through

[real sierra]

ranged is tricky to use right i think

it's only 3 squares max range

[stray dragon]

reminds me of civ 5 but a bit longer

[unkempt citrus]

You could do a lazy turtle

core of ranged units

[real sierra]

[unkempt citrus]

and then surround them with heavies

[stray dragon]

is there any method of doing AOE damage?

[real sierra]

roman shield wall

[real sierra]

yes

all ranged attackers can do AOE damage

[stray dragon]

so unit cramming won't work well

a shame

[real sierra]

well it still might

its a PBAOE

from what i can tell

[stray dragon]

oooh

ok that's workable

can the screeps sit on the same tile as the wall?

[real sierra]

walls are solid, but there are special walls called ramparts that screeps can sit in

[stray dragon]

i see

[real sierra]

they can attack from ramparts, but incoming attacks to creeps in a rampart are absorbed by the rampart

[stray dragon]

so ramparts are to be avoided if possible

[real sierra]

yes

ramparts are quite bad

a rampart can only be entered by creeps friendly to it

[stray dragon]

can they be walked through?

by the friendly units

[real sierra]

yes

its effectively a gate

[stray dragon]

very bad

[real sierra]

indeed

[stray dragon]

you could still lock it down on the other side

would require you to dedicate forces to it though

honestly kinda sounds like the solution is ranged unit spam with some primarily bulky melee units placed in key locations to take the brunt of the enemy attacks (preferably with a way for them to retreat for healing, and for a replacement unit to take their place)

[real sierra]

in reality i dont know what people actually increase wall health to

300M is the absolute max

but it would cost an incredible amount of energy to upgrade even a single wall to that

nevertheless, some of the walls left over when i spawned in my room have 85M health

so its evidently not impossible

[stray dragon]

i'd guess that 300k is something you might come across, that 600 HP/s melee screep would "only" take 500 seconds to bash it down

[stray dragon]

oh

[real sierra]

i can see 300k

my walls are currently at ~27k

[stray dragon]

what kind of dps can ranged get to

[real sierra]

as with most things, it depends

in single-target mode, 10HP/tick per ranged part

in AOE mode, it's range dependent

[stray dragon]

ouch that's pretty low

[real sierra]

10HP at 1 tile range, 4HP at 2 tile range, 1HP at 3 tile range

but this is applied to every hostile creep/structure in that range

[stray dragon]

taxicab distance?

[real sierra]

yes

[stray dragon]

that's horrid lmao

[opaque wharf]

Ouch

What kind of shitty aoe is that lol

[real sierra]

there is a nuance to consider

this is the action priority hierarchy

[opaque wharf]

Is the aoe also dot?

[real sierra]

if you take two actions in the same line, only the one furthest right is executed

but if so, i think this chart indicates you can do ranged attacks and melee attacks in the same tick?

[stray dragon]

oh i see

[fast pagoda]

real rpg dev hours in here

[opaque wharf]

How? Wouldn't it still only execute 1 command?

[opaque wharf]

It do be like that

[unkempt citrus]

How fast are games thugh

[real sierra]

those three lines in that image are the only dependency lines

[unkempt citrus]

and how many units can you run

cos even at max Hp

[real sierra]

you can execute one action from each of them, per tick

[stray dragon]

so melee+ranged on the same units, with the ratio varying depending on role

[unkempt citrus]

a zerg rush of breachers seems reasonable

[opaque wharf]

Oh its separated

Its too bright out here

[real sierra]

you can also move once per tick, with no dependencies on that afaik

[stray dragon]

move and attack is nice

[real sierra]

wait

heal can target self?

and be used in the same turn as rangedAttack or rangedMassAttack?

theres also another nuance to combat (of course)

as you take damage, you will lose functionality of parts

you can define the order of this at unit creation time

[stray dragon]

tough parts last obviously

actually maybe a bit of movement last

[real sierra]

the reverse, actually

[stray dragon]

wtf

don't they give health?

[real sierra]

how health works is that you get 100 maxhp per part

but

well there's no but to that

the reason tough parts exist is that they only cost 10 energy

[stray dragon]

ah i see

[real sierra]

for comparison, the next cheapest part would be a move or carry part at 50 energy

so if you just wanna add health without bankrupting yourself

and dont need the extra functionality

you go tough

[stray dragon]

honestly not seeing much use for ranged unless the enemy is unreachable by melee then

[opaque wharf]

But they are unreachable by melee if they place their unit behind wall

If the enemy AI is good that is

[stray dragon]

in that case you try to break the wall

the enemy can fire over the wall too

[opaque wharf]

Then you are bombarded by enemy ranged

[stray dragon]

nah, the best they can do to a unit on the other side of the wall is like 7 Hp/s if they all have 1 ranged part

[opaque wharf]

I think its better to dismantle wall but the unit that dismantle it is being constantly healed?

How much is the HP restored by heal?

[stray dragon]

meanwhile you can put 1 dismantle and 2 ranged (could put 3 ranged but leave a gap to retreat the melee/dismantle unit out for healing) on the other side to do 58 hp/s to the wall

assuming 1 part of each type on each screep

[opaque wharf]

Or 50/s but for a longer duration

[stray dragon]

healers can probably just outheal the 7 dps actually

[opaque wharf]

How much HP is restored and the cooldown?

[stray dragon]

i assume it's 1 heal per turn

[opaque wharf]

This is starting to become another spreadsheet simulator lol

[stray dragon]

per tick

yeah lol

[real sierra]

heal is 12HP/tick within 1 tile range, or 4HP/tick within 3 tiles range, per HEAL part

[stray dragon]

yeah you're fine attacking the wall lol

no point trying to attack over it

[opaque wharf]

Alright so you can make a tank to dismantle those wall

Straight up specialized detachment force

[real sierra]

the scariest source of damage is definitely towers

[unkempt citrus]

zerg rush zerg rush

[real sierra]

towers can hit anywhere on the map

at range > 20 tiles, it hits for 150HP/tick

at range < 5 tiles, it hits for 600HP/tick

costs 10 energy per shot

[tender river]

what are your issues with it?

[real sierra]

and scales linearly between those ranges

gm chay!

[opaque wharf]

Just not used to the UI. I can manage, just a bit tedious

[unkempt citrus]

That sounds like a fun startergy

[opaque wharf]

I know photogimp exists

[unkempt citrus]

just rush towers in opposingterritory

and use them as artillery

[opaque wharf]

That's OP wtf

[real sierra]

it's the energy cost that's supposed to bottleneck it

[unkempt citrus]

You'll probably need an amzing economy though

[opaque wharf]

Oh

[real sierra]

but with enough stored, it's pretty evil

there are limits on tower count

with max room control level, you can have 6 towers

[fast pagoda]

the only image editor i am truly comfortable with is paint.NET

20 years of comfort

tfw pdn is over 20 years old

[real sierra]

only image editor i feel confident using is pixlr

[fast pagoda]

and tfw ive been using it the whole time

[tender river]

i use gimp for editing and krita for drawing

[unkempt citrus]

same

well not much drawing

but yeah gimp

[tender river]

if you ever have spare resource, you could try standardizing room layout, making it so the rooms you control are as homogeneous as possible and their layout can be represented using just an index into your standard layouts database
changing every single room's layout sounds expensive but its trading in-game resources for future cpu resources which is a fair deal

[real sierra]

backreading

[real sierra]

this would be pretty tricky given rooms have randomized impassable terrain

[tender river]

theres something like swamps and mountains?

[real sierra]

yes and yes

[tender river]

oh i see walls cant be destroyed

fair enough

[real sierra]

constructed walls can be destroyed

natural ones cant

[tender river]

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-317

[real sierra]

as much as i love the idea of writing my own pathfinding algorithm

i doubt i could improve on the built-in implementation

[real sierra]

hey chayleaf, what do you think of a lazy merge sort

[tender river]

shiro do you actually need all depositables

or do you only need one

[real sierra]

i only need one a lot of the time

but i cant think of a way to only get one

[tender river]

??? for loop

the key is to stop once you found the highest prio one

unless its rare to have the highest prio in a room

in which case it wouldnt optimize much

[real sierra]

its very rare

[tender river]

you can try storing bitmasks per room to indicate which object types each room contains

[real sierra]

painful

[tender river]

but if you dont store the entire count its expensive to update

and if you do its expensive to store

[real sierra]

sounds like many more problems to fix something that i calculate once and cache for the rest of the tick anyway

maybe not worth it

[tender river]

different sorting algos wont help you much here i think

but you may still be able to optimize it by using in-place updates

in js, functions on arrays like .filter create a new array, which is fair but a tiny bit expensive

yeah anyway i dont think theres much you can do

(besides storing something in memory to optimize it of course)

[real sierra]

[jagged turtle]

my 10000 .maps for my webdev adventures:

[real sierra]

i mean

you can at least do a little bit of fixing there

a.map((x) => g(f(x))) instead of a.map(f).map(g)

ayway

im not looking for performance atm

im looking for functionality

only using about 20-25% of my CPU budget

i forgot you can set publicly-visible signs on rooms you own

[real sierra]

threw some code together quick for a guard

since my builders arent gonna make my turret until after the walls are maxed

at least this way, we can produce a fighter in case of emergencies

unsure if it'll be effective tho

[tender river]

it's fine nobody will attack anyway

[real sierra]

always a confidence booster going to my neighbours

[tender river]

you should visit them more often then

[real sierra]

the wall on the left has 8,520,000 HP

the wall on the right has 1 HP

safe™

they haven't built a single road

and their storages are full of energy that isnt being reinvested into the economy

[tender river]

you should liberate their creeps from this horrible mismanagement

[real sierra]

tempting

wtf

this person knows what they're doing

starter my ass

they have a crazy layout for their spawner extensions too

very interesting

...

wait thats genius

i see

they put a container right beside the source

and have a creep with no storage capacity stand on the container and mine

upon mining, since they have no storage, the resource is dropped

..into the container

thats kinda bs tbh

[tender river]

i once made an afk ammo farm in factorio by making logistic bots take all your ammo when you spawn while you slowly sit on a transport belt that moves you to a worm that will kill you

[real sierra]

thats undocumented behaviour

[real sierra]

[amber fractal]

Glitches

[blazing hound]

Hmm. I should probably code Skynet.

[real sierra]

that might be the first time someone has ever said that

[blazing hound]

Yeah. Well. I mean.

It's about time someone made a sentient AI innit.

[blazing hound]

Also happy bday!

[real sierra]

[jagged turtle]

oh yeah

happy bday shiro

[tender river]

shiro getting the nesus experience

[jagged turtle]

also I was kinda hoping for the twins to be the first but uh no one's going to stop you so

[blazing hound]

Well, they kind of are, but in a weird way.

Like, not an intentional way it almost feels like?

Like they were two happy little accidents.

[jagged turtle]

yeah, fair

[blazing hound]

To be fair there are two reasons for me doing it. First would be that I need to test out my hypothesis.

Second would be to prove that life doesn't need to exist in a strictly chemical system.

[real sierra]

not to be a party pooper but

sentience is a super meaningless notion

there's no agreed-upon definition for sentience, and in practice people tend to change what it means to suit their needs

so i can't ascribe much value to someone saying an AI is "sentient" or not

[blazing hound]

Well, that's what I'm trying to see here.

The reason that is true, and I am not disputing that it is, is because we simply don't have a sample size big enough to confidently say we know what it means to be sentient.

Or, well

We think we don't.

[opaque wharf]

Sliding on the road was fun lol

Wear your safety gears people

[woven temple]

how does it have anything to do with sample size? Sentience is a philosophical construct, you can't diagnose it

[real sierra]

im skeptical of whether or not having more data points that you can't classify will help define it

[blazing hound]

Yet it is also the very concept that justifies human "superiority" over other animals

[real sierra]

thats an opinion

one i dont share

[woven temple]

which, yet again, is purely philosophical and has no scientific basis

[hoary lion]

oh well well well

what do we have here

[blazing hound]

All of science is based on philosophy. What you'd call sciences was once taken as a sub-cathegory of philosophy aswell.

[real sierra]

i think humans are incredibly good at problem solving and pattern recognition, and these happen to be incredibly powerful talents to have as species on this planet

[amber fractal]

Ai sentience debate

I've just been lurking lol

[hoary lion]

this guy can now feel the presence

[blazing hound]

Good point. But jackdaws are able to solve problems and recognize patterns just as well, if not better, than us.

[opaque wharf]

SAAM

Where is he when the world needs him the most

[amber fractal]

Best you got is me

[blazing hound]

See, in my opinion, it's not as simple as "is and isn't".

[opaque wharf]

Did you save the bingo tho?

[real sierra]

possibly true enough, but they lack the physique to manipulate many objects and apply those talents

[blazing hound]

That is true.

[opaque wharf]

Neuro when Neurobot-1000 has finished

[amber fractal]

I admit I haven't been up to date with bingo

[blazing hound]

Or maybe they just don't see the need.

[opaque wharf]

We have a thread btw
https://discord.com/channels/574720535888396288/1337733692709146674

[opaque wharf]

Same

Hence why we need Sam

[real sierra]

this is a bit of a tangent, my original intended point was just that sentience has no real meaning

it's just air

[blazing hound]

Well, again, my point is that it doesn't have a meaning because we don't understand it.

[amber fractal]

Time to boot up the laptop and look through logs

[blazing hound]

What forms it? How does it come to be? What does this word even represent?

[real sierra]

nothing

sentience isnt a real thing

[blazing hound]

So you don't exist then.

[real sierra]

thats my point

??????????]

[hoary lion]

good

since yall don't exist yall are getting marketable-plusified

[blazing hound]

What I've come to know is that sentience is the ability to recognize oneself in the context of their surroundings and the ability to observe both their surroundings as well as their inner "life" of sorts.

And make decisions based on that.

[opaque wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/cry-gif-23674110

Intelligent is not sentience

Nor does sapience meant sentient

[woven temple]

true to an extend, but there is a difference between empirically proven data that supports clear hypotheses and logical thoughts that follow your subjective perspective.
For example I can clearly define gravity, mathematically describe it and test whether it exists.
Sentience already has problems with the first step.
If you manage to create a clear definition that can be applied universally then you might be onto something, but I highly doubt that will ever happen.

[amber fractal]

#bingo

[blazing hound]

Well, I use philosophy more as a tool to form hypothesies.

[amber fractal]

@opaque wharf uhhh, apparently I didn't add that slot

[woven temple]

again: a valid approach, but until you have a testable hypothesis it stays at that speculative level

[jagged turtle]

I'll tick off the 3rd B column right now if you want

[blazing hound]

I already have one, and creating sentient, or well, protosentient AI is a good way to test the hypothesis.

[jagged turtle]

(think I need a lot of help on that new project :P)

[hoary lion]

man

speaker embeddings is something that I do not want to deal with

[opaque wharf]

Mmmm, kwispy discord compression

[olive sable]

[jagged turtle]

I don't think I finished it enough to the point I'm happy tio release it on the VSC marketplace quite yet

but soon™

[olive sable]

Goodmorning guys

[amber fractal]

Morning

[amber fractal]

So this is how I learned I forgot to add a "AI sentience debate" tile to this bingo

[blazing hound]

Also you can cross out 2nd collumn 3rd row since I'm pretty sure nobody had the idea that skynet could be made before

[woven temple]

how do you not use dark mode?
this stresses my eyes out just glancing over it

[amber fractal]

[blazing hound]

how could you

My field of study is literally based around it :c

Rude

[jagged turtle]

it's a wip

I'm making light mode first because uhhh it is easier in this caase

[blazing hound]

:c

[tight sparrow]

grant is right

[amber fractal]

This is the second bingo, the first one had it as a tile

[blazing hound]

good

[tight sparrow]

that's great, you're wrong though

[blazing hound]

I feel left out otherwise

[blazing hound]

aw man

Time to throw out the study papers and begin again.

[tight sparrow]

i'm a Biologist

[blazing hound]

Ah, yes.

My arch enemy.

[tight sparrow]

i work as a researcher and multiple coworkers work on this exact field

[blazing hound]

All life has to be strictly on a chemical basis yadda yadda innit

[olive sable]

[amber fractal]

Not the first bio I've seen in this chat surprisingly

[tight sparrow]

come up with observable testable metrics or it's nonsense

[real sierra]

we comp scientists and mathematicians love biologists because we both grow various molds in dishes

[woven temple]

heyyy, fellow biologist

[blazing hound]

This made me laugh because it's unironically teue

Trie

True

Fuck

[tight sparrow]

my moulds are cooler than your moulds

[blazing hound]

@tight sparrow i have a question

[tight sparrow]

sure

[blazing hound]

How the fuck do potatoes work

[real sierra]

my molds are all natural

[opaque wharf]

But there is a point tho. We all here are mostly engineers so we speak in empirical and something tangible

Philosophy is not our field

[tight sparrow]

im going to need more context

[woven temple]

most of us don't think that (although technically everything is chemistry)
it is just that we value the scientific approach

[opaque wharf]

So mixing it is not the best thing to do

[tight sparrow]

sentience isn't a philosophical question

[real sierra]

something tangible
category theory:

[blazing hound]

Like I left this one raw potato on the sun once the little shit started literally crawling all over my room looking for dirt

[tight sparrow]

oh this is phototaxis

[olive sable]

Mr./ms. Biologist, why do humans have tha yhing where suddendly it feels like you're having a heart attack and fucking dying, and then suddendly you're fine again?

[blazing hound]

You mean the fucker doesn't need dirt??????

[opaque wharf]

Fuck you mathematician. Solve your aleph problem first

[tight sparrow]

I'm poisoning you secretly

[olive sable]

Fuck

[real sierra]

🧠 : oops did i do that

[jagged turtle]

would you guys rather the version attached to this message, or the version I sent before?

[tight sparrow]

plants are able to search out light

[opaque wharf]

What was that again? Continuum hypothesis?

[tight sparrow]

the exact mechanisms are a little bit complicated

[lilac glen]

oh yeah they do that

[real sierra]

[lilac glen]

its the same way veins form over muscle

[blazing hound]

Wild man

[tight sparrow]

but it's to do with changing growth rates in relation to light levels leading to them growing in the direction of increasing light gradients

[real sierra]

screw the continuum hypothesis

[lilac glen]

cells grow in response to food, food allows cells to grow in its direction

[blazing hound]

No but like

I left it

Without dirt

[olive sable]

Why cant you just put food in your wounds then?

[lilac glen]

it doesnt need dirt

[blazing hound]

Do potatoes just not need dirt and water-

[lilac glen]

the world is its dirt

[blazing hound]

Bro

[opaque wharf]

Wanna see my wounds?

[lilac glen]

it will eat you

[opaque wharf]

I just sled on the roads

[blazing hound]

I understand why it's the most popular food now

Just fucking

[lilac glen]

you are its dirt

[blazing hound]

Leave it somewhere

[tight sparrow]

hang on let me uhh

[blazing hound]

It's gonna reproduce anywqy

[tight sparrow]

you know how you can have a pc put together and running without a case

[olive sable]

Not rea

[lilac glen]

mhm they never die

[tight sparrow]

it's similar

[lilac glen]

well they can but its nearly impossib;e

[blazing hound]

What if I smash it with a hammer

[lilac glen]

far more effort than any thing is willing to put in

[lilac glen]

a skin and a squishy bit can reproduce

skinning a potato makes it mortal

[olive sable]

Huh

[blazing hound]

So hold on

[lilac glen]

i think the main issue is infection

basically theres 3 parts to a potato

[olive sable]

The plant, the roots, and the round thingy?

[blazing hound]

Potatoes are:

• Immortal
• Omnipresent (it can just grow somewhere it wants to be)
• Omniscient

Potatoes are god.

[amber fractal]

I see nothing wrong with this statment

[olive sable]

Checks out

[real sierra]

iggly

[lilac glen]

the shutes, the skin, the nodules, and the flesh

[blazing hound]

Anyways back to real talk what's your definition of life?

[olive sable]

[lilac glen]

shutes allow it to spread

[real sierra]

Sam

[amber fractal]

[lilac glen]

lemme go to the start rq

[real sierra]

do you like RTS games

[amber fractal]

Hi Shiro~

[amber fractal]

Was planning on playing with Sam once he got back

[olive sable]

Biologists, why is skin so bad at growing back?

[real sierra]

I didn't even have to ask

holy shir

[amber fractal]

I lurk here often

[blazing hound]

I'm not a biologist but trust me it isn't.

[olive sable]

I know

[opaque wharf]

My skin is already growing back

[olive sable]

Im asking why

WHY

[real sierra]

Sam my screepies are doing so good

[lilac glen]

it always does, no matter what

[real sierra]

(they are almost completely stagnant due to lack of energy sources)

[lilac glen]

it is very good actually

[blazing hound]

^

[olive sable]

But what about scars snd shit?

[lilac glen]

my healing is pretty good actually

[blazing hound]

Like, if you ever saw the programming for how it actually functions it would blow your mind to pieces.

[lilac glen]

i got yellow blood and platelets so im goated

[lilac glen]

thats not skin

[olive sable]

Then wtf is it?

[lilac glen]

i mean i scraped my entire kneecap off and it still grew back

[real sierra]

scar tissue is just a filler material to my understanding

[blazing hound]

Like, how does anything come up with such ingenious calculations and chemical reactions.

[lilac glen]

you just gotta eat a shitton of meat and drink a bunch of sugar and water

[lilac glen]

its pretty shit

[real sierra]

it lacks most of the specialized functions of what it replaces

[blazing hound]

Mate

[lilac glen]

its vibe coding

[real sierra]

and you can get scars internally too, not just on skin

[blazing hound]

Mate

[lilac glen]

scar tissue can be semi specialized but it will never replace what was lost

[blazing hound]

Come up with a better skin reparation formula.

[opaque wharf]

Oh, I can rest easy then since my kneecap is currently opened

[real sierra]

no cap

[olive sable]

So i have like 20 scars on my arm cuz i dont eat enough?

Thats pretty shit innit

[blazing hound]

I genuenly do not know how to answer that.

[blazing hound]

Are you alright?

[olive sable]

Yes

Its not from sh

[lilac glen]

if
{skin seal: broken}
then:
fix {skin seal}

[olive sable]

Im just a dumbasd

[blazing hound]

Oh good.

[opaque wharf]

Shell?

Oh

[real sierra]

lizards and stuff just grow new limbs don't they

[opaque wharf]

I get it

[real sierra]

why can't we do that

[lilac glen]

i mean i have yellow blood soooo

[blazing hound]

We too lorg

[lilac glen]

idk man

[amber fractal]

[blazing hound]

Lack of red cells?

[olive sable]

Why cant i be an axolotl?

[lilac glen]

we can but we need the existing genetic code

[real sierra]

ruptured liver?

[blazing hound]

You were born too wrong to be an axolotl.

[lilac glen]

the code to rebuild the body is stored in that part, very bad design

[blazing hound]

You don't have any of their genes apart from like a few.

[lilac glen]

axolotls can only be killed with one solid strike down the spine

[real sierra]

ok gn programming

[blazing hound]

Actually let me search up the similarity of out genetics to theirs

[real sierra]

[lilac glen]

no i just bleed yellow if i bleed too heavy and it works as replacement skin

[blazing hound]

Nini shiro and enjoy your bday eepies

[lilac glen]

gn

[lilac glen]

i mean prolly it turns orange after a while

[olive sable]

Afaik every cell has the genetic code for every body part, its jut deactivated?
Why dont we just activate it?

[blazing hound]

Bro

[lilac glen]

cause it takes a lot of energy and is pretty inneficient

[olive sable]

[blazing hound]

Appearently, we share 86% of genetic code that axolotls have.

Wild man

[woven temple]

It's being researched, but it is not that easy

[blazing hound]

But, it fits.

[lilac glen]

its better to just heal the wound instantly than risk a full rebuild with infection

[olive sable]

Ahhh

Makes sense

[blazing hound]

Short answer: we too lorg

[woven temple]

We also share all the genes necessary for their regeneration, we would just have to figure out how to activate them (safely)

[lilac glen]

oh wait uh we actually can

[blazing hound]

Yeah

[lilac glen]

stem cell transplant

[blazing hound]

Idk that's not my field

[lilac glen]

if you get one of those on the wound site it can slightly rebuild the tissue

however using too many can lead to cancer and a wound is a very bad place to get a cancer

[olive sable]

Stem cells are just you but a zip file version

[woven temple]

Stem cells are not a magical fix-all solution by themselves. A stem cell needs complex signals in place to know how to differentiate correctly

[lilac glen]

also we have no fibroblasts to spare

[blazing hound]

Appearently that's somehow true

And cancer is like the annoying zip bomb file.

Or malware.

Idk

[olive sable]

Ok what in the fuck is fibroplast?

[blazing hound]

Yadda yadda chemistry or something.

[opaque wharf]

The thing that grows instead of skin

[blazing hound]

an organelle

[opaque wharf]

Glue basically

[lilac glen]

anything that duplicates and has an energy cost to live

[blazing hound]

Oh nvm

[blazing hound]

Right but is that really all there is to it?

Like is that really as deep as we can go with this?

[lilac glen]

apparently a fibroblast contains positional info for a thing to regen

[lilac glen]

i got 4 hrs of sleep man

[olive sable]

Huh

Interesting

[blazing hound]

I got 3 you have no excuses.

[lilac glen]

wtf

uhm

[olive sable]

I slept on a sofa under a towel

You're all excused

[opaque wharf]

Oh, not in the sofa now huh

[olive sable]

Fuck you

[blazing hound]

Pfft

Yall are cute

[olive sable]

English grammer sucks

[woven temple]

The best definitions are simple and concise.
It's always easy to go more complex, but is it useful?

[blazing hound]

@opaque wharf anyways the definition I fw is the one that goes a little bit like this:

Life is a system that aims to continually shift itself further from reaching equilibrium.

[olive sable]

In dutch, saying you slept in the sofa is perfectly good grammer

[blazing hound]

Ah

Shut

Wrong ping

@lilac glen there

[blazing hound]

That

[opaque wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/gohine-hohino-no-hohineee-gohineee-gif-17792172174678204487

[blazing hound]

Sorry my 3 hours of sleep is starting to take a toll

[blazing hound]

Not in czech tho

[lilac glen]

hmm

black hole

[olive sable]

I dont care about czech

[lilac glen]

white hole

[blazing hound]

Reaches equilibrium.

[opaque wharf]

Chad

[lilac glen]

but it puts in effort to not

unlike water

[blazing hound]

Well, how so then.

[lilac glen]

water is forced by the sun

black hole generates its own gravity

[olive sable]

Life is like that thing where it just happens and nobody asked for it but its just there so whadyagonnadoboutit?

[blazing hound]

It doesn't generate anything the gravity just exists there due to spacetime being bent by how fat it os.

[woven temple]

Everything with a mass generates its own gravity

[opaque wharf]

Imma move to desktop just so I could shitpost with higher wpm

[lilac glen]

but in this case it forms enough gravity to fuel itself

can you float food to your mouth?

[amber fractal]

Due to being in an argument with someone about this, I must say I'm not cute!

[woven temple]

Yes? You can't?

[blazing hound]

Besides a singular black hole isn't a system

[lilac glen]

fucking fatass

[olive sable]

[lilac glen]

but it contains itself by its rules

[olive sable]

You know saying that has the opposite effect right?

[lilac glen]

he used the tsundere emote man hell do you think he wants

[woven temple]

What do you mean by "aims to"?

[opaque wharf]

Now hear me out y'all

[blazing hound]

You possess every psychological trait of being fucking adorable including the little hmph pout. The fact this isn't the first time this has been mentioned to you means there is something to it as per the law of probability saying that a coincidence happening at least thrice is not a coincidence, this means I am not the only person to regard you as such. Therefore, you're a cutie patootie.

[lilac glen]

i think puts effort in

[olive sable]

Ladies, ladies, calm down

[blazing hound]

Well, no one thing is infinite.

[lilac glen]

like water aims to go to the lowest point

[amber fractal]

[opaque wharf]

As a wise person once said, if you wanted to use a tools from another discipline to your discipline, you should understand both of the discipline first

So you will know the limit when the tools break down

[lilac glen]

is this that edating ive been hearing about?

[amber fractal]

I'm not derailing this via my existence any more than it already is

[opaque wharf]

CS borrows genetic algorithm from Biology

[blazing hound]

No

[real sierra]

hello again

I thought I was sleeping

I'm not

[lilac glen]

biology is very efficient

[opaque wharf]

And to do so, you need to know how it really works to use said tools

[woven temple]

I don't like this phrasing, sounds too much like it is a choice

[amber fractal]

Hi Shiro~

[real sierra]

precomputed, am I doing screeps wrong

I suddenly feel like my entire approach is just incorrect

[lilac glen]

i know but otherwise nothing "does"

[opaque wharf]

Information theory also borrows entropy from physics

[lilac glen]

it just is

[real sierra]

despite how well it's working

[blazing hound]

Go eeeeeeeeep sillyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Go have what I cannot

[olive sable]

Wdym?

[opaque wharf]

Point is, if you wanna debate something about CS philosophical question, you should make sure you understand both discipline

[blazing hound]

Well, to be fair, it's not just two disciplines.

[amber fractal]

It is a good idea to understand what is and isn't a debate as well

[opaque wharf]

Argue

[amber fractal]

You can cross into argument very fast if your not careful

[lilac glen]

i personally think this is more in line with logic systems but fair enough

[olive sable]

Lemme just take a quick screenshot

[blazing hound]

All disciplines interact with each other and stem from each other in different ways, therefore to say you need to understand two means you need to understand all.

[opaque wharf]

Not really

[amber fractal]

Throw that one in quotes lol

[blazing hound]

Name a discipline.

[olive sable]

Iggly you will never live this down

[opaque wharf]

Math

[blazing hound]

Linguistics.

[opaque wharf]

[amber fractal]

[olive sable]

You are now appraised by an expert as "cutie patootie"

[real sierra]

idk

random wave of dread

[blazing hound]

I love how I'm immediately regarded as an expert.

[real sierra]

I think things are just working too well and I'm getting worried

[lilac glen]

hell u mean iggly poor mattie

[amber fractal]

I wonder

[lilac glen]

reverse gamblers fallacy?

[blazing hound]

I wouldn't say I am, even though I studied for my entire life to be able to say this.

[opaque wharf]

Nonsense. Math doesn't need linguistic. To communicate math you do need language since its how we humans evolved to transfer idea

[real sierra]

I'm still limited by the unpaid 20 CPU processing cap

with cpu unlock items or the subscription, that can go up to 300

[blazing hound]

No but linguistics directly stem from math

[real sierra]

and yet I'm nowhere close to even using my full 20 CPU limit

[blazing hound]

They borrow the rules of logic.

[real sierra]

my baseline usage is around 2 CPU

[olive sable]

Just increase the budget on the server we're gonna host

[opaque wharf]

But you don't need to understand math to understand linguistic now do you?

[lilac glen]

what are u doing?

[real sierra]

oh this is all about a game called screeps

[blazing hound]

Exactly, hence why if you're discussing linguistics you have to understand math.

[real sierra]

if that wasn't explained

[opaque wharf]

IF you are going to use a tools from math and then use said tools in linguistic, you DO need to understand both

[blazing hound]

You're proving my point

:P

[opaque wharf]

I don't think language major study math as their minor

[blazing hound]

They should

[lilac glen]

i havent studied enough js to learn

im a python man

[olive sable]

People of the jury, i would like to raise that most of yall do not know hydrodynamics, yet you still drink water?

[real sierra]

I learned JavaScript by playing this game

great way to pick it up

[blazing hound]

My girlfriend is currently studying linguistics with specialisation to asian studies. Math helped her understand the languages so insanely much.

[lilac glen]

i actually photosynthesize

[lilac glen]

impossible, a discord user with a gf

[blazing hound]

it taste good

[olive sable]

Another win for the lesbians.
Im beginning to notice a pattern in #programming

[blazing hound]

I'll let you know I'm also trans

[real sierra]

I do not know magnetohydrodynamics, yet I still drink molten iron

[lilac glen]

yeah i was gonna ask but then i remembered you exist

[blazing hound]

And I wear thigh highs.

And I probably have mold in my bin.

[olive sable]

I dont care. A woman is a woman.
Half the woman in #programming might even be trans

[blazing hound]

No what I mean

Oh nevermind.

:P

Also incredibly based take.