programming

[olive sable]

aight time to make an os, step 1 is webgl compatebility, step 2 make everything run in browser

[rigid snow]

no absolutely not

[fast pagoda]

that would be called stack overflow tier help at the worst

not vibe coding

[rigid snow]

vibe coding is when you don’t look at the code at all

[sour harness]

Vibe coding in its original definition is asking the AI to do things and then not even looking at the code

[opaque wharf]

No, as in, the length that you need to do to get something functional is considerably higher for browser. You can make your own OS that drops you to a console more easily than you what you need to do to make a browser perform HTTP request, preferably TLS, receive HTML, parse, and display it

[rigid snow]

like in things like cursor and copilot agent

[fast pagoda]

i have tried to use like

jules

the google agent thing

for a bugfix

and it is terrifying

not even being able to see what's happening, it just shits out a PR

[wary rover]

Mhm mhm. Feel like I will do that in the future from time to time, cause getting stuck at the wall that you didn't even know can exist was not fun

[fast pagoda]

it's nice to have the help in your back pocket if something is making you slam your head against a wall

if only just to have another opinion without having to bother someone irl

[olive sable]

omg i hate how c++ does this.
i cant amke a copy cuz the data in vram is linked to the original, and i cant make a pointer cuz the object gets deleted at the end of the function so the pointer wouldnt point to anything.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[fast pagoda]

the data is there
OH! too slow!

[rigid snow]

is it really valuable experience though if you haven’t spent two hours until you stumbled onto the stackoverflow post

[wary rover]

Yeah, been doing that a lot to fellas in this chat recently lmao

[fast pagoda]

it's the 2025 version of that really, 2 hours until you finally drag yourself to the holy oracle chatgpt's temple to sheepishly present your code and issue

[opaque wharf]

That's where you should know an object lifetime and how to handle it

[olive sable]

but like, how do i handle it????
its fucked

[opaque wharf]

Dont create the object inside the function

So the object won't get out of scope and destroyed

[rigid snow]

usually if i spend that long it does not have a slightest clue and just hallucinates shit that looks correct but never works for 100 random reasons be it completely missing the prompt or making up apis and libraries

[olive sable]

the probelm with that is that the amount of objects is unknown. idealy the thing im storing outside of the function is a list of arbitrary length, but its not working

[opaque wharf]

Or DO create the object inside the function, but transfer it to some other other which the lifetime is outside of the function

[fast pagoda]

what about smart pointers that get blasted out to the heap whne initialized

[opaque wharf]

Then do the second strategy

[opaque wharf]

This is where we need to define HOW to create the object

[fast pagoda]

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/cpp/smart-pointers-modern-cpp

biggest embed NA

[rigid snow]

smh should’ve just gone with rust

[olive sable]

class Scene
{
    public:
        Scene(int sceneNr)
        {
            if (sceneNr == 0)
            {
                int shaderProgram = makeShader("shaders/shader3D.vs", "shaders/shader3D.fs");
                glUseProgram(shaderProgram);
                setUniformBuffer(shaderProgram);

                tinygltf::Model model1;
                tinygltf::Model model2;

                Object obj1;
                Object obj2;

                std::pair<GLuint, std::map<int, GLuint>> mesh1 = makeMesh(model1, shaderProgram, "models/vedal987/vedal987.gltf");
                std::pair<GLuint, std::map<int, GLuint>> mesh2 = makeMesh(model2, shaderProgram, "models/vedal987/vedal987.gltf");

                objectlist =
                {
                    {obj1, &model1, mesh1},
                    {obj2, &model2, mesh2}
                };
            }
        }

code go brrr

[sour harness]

Saying out loud what I keep thinking when listening to his problems

[opaque wharf]

This is where the real fun begins with c++ memory management problem

[olive sable]

the problem is that &model1

and 2 too i guess

[fast pagoda]

vedal987.gltf
vedal987 good luck, turtle fk

[olive sable]

tutel is my test object

[rigid snow]

goated format btw

[opaque wharf]

Also, I'm on mobile so I can't really write an example now

[olive sable]

o7

[opaque wharf]

Pray that a higher being descends here to help

[rigid snow]

prompt chatgpt for one ez

[sour harness]

You are already in a class. Just move the models to a class field

[olive sable]

the problem is that when i get a if (sceneNr == 1) or if (sceneNr == 2) then ill have a diffrent amount of objects

[gritty dust]

@olive sable any more amazing videos with S tier audio

[olive sable]

not yet

[tender river]

you can also just use auto instead of explicit types for creating variables

[sour harness]

So have a vector of objects instead

[tender river]

i'd definitely replace std::pair<GLuint, std::map<int, GLuint>> with auto

[olive sable]

i actually put that in a struct but forgot about it lol

[tender river]

theres also fun stuff like

auto function() -> int {
    return 5;
}

[fast pagoda]

agi achieved

[opaque wharf]

Wtf is auto doing there

[tender river]

moving the return type to the right

dont ask me how this works

[fast pagoda]

automagically

[rigid snow]

automatically inferred from explicit declaration

[opaque wharf]

[sour harness]

"Fuck, turns out people like the return type after the function better. How can we shoehorn that into the standard?"

[olive sable]

no....

[tender river]

also you should know about this

std::vector<int> x { 5, 6, 7 };
for (auto &n : x) {
    n += 5;
}

[fast pagoda]

srs tho isn't that just basically saying the type is basically Any so it doesnt have to check the type until the function returns int

[opaque wharf]

Anyhow yeah, make a container placed outside of the function. Create the object inside the function and pass it to the container. Do all of that while maintaining memory safety if possible

[olive sable]

im doing this rn

for (auto &rendObj : objectlist)
{
    glUniformMatrix4fv(modelpos, 1, GL_FALSE, &rendObj.object.transmat[0][0]);
    drawModel(rendObj.vaoAndEbos, *rendObj.mesh);
}

[tender river]

this isnt Any, but it does serve the purpose of deferring the return type declaration yeah

[fast pagoda]

yeah i hesitated to use the term Any but it's familiar to me

[warped narwhal]

It allows the compiler to use the input variables in the type of an output

[opaque wharf]

The difference is with any, it could literally be anything. With auto it has to be one thing only

[rigid snow]

if i ever write a type system im doing Whatever

[fast pagoda]

based

type idk

[opaque wharf]

WeBall

[rigid snow]

surprisingly on second thought this actually makes sense and sounds quite nice

[amber fractal]

hblang

[opaque wharf]

This pattern has a name in OOP but I forgot what it is right now

[fast pagoda]

so this is more like typing.TypeVar rather than Any

[opaque wharf]

Repository pattern?

[fast pagoda]

a generic type, but only one and we'll tell ya later

[rigid snow]

type generics mhm

[opaque wharf]

Oh, yep

[warped narwhal]

template <typename T, typename T2>
auto function(T a, T2 b) -> decltype(a + b)
{
    return a + b;
}

[tender river]

idk is not a type in hblang its a value

theres a type @Any() but its only a thing at compile time

[fast pagoda]

i like to cast type yolo and then sudo anything with the word danger in its description and then wonder why my distro exploded

[tender river]

equivalent code in hblang:

function := fn(a: @Any(), b: @Any()): @TypeOf(a + b) {
    return a + b
}

[opaque wharf]

Oh I misread that lol

[fast pagoda]

alright i finally will see the light surely it's nowhere to go but up

[tender river]

i honestly dont see a reason to use nixos on wsl but then again i dont see a reason to use wsl in general over linux

[rigid snow]

so you have microsoft copilot

[fast pagoda]

it's simple mathematics
lazy and want to be able to use windows environment easily since that's what i've always been used to
but also want to be able to use linux for dev stuff

[rigid snow]

and edge !!!

[tender river]

this reminds me how github emailed me "you are now eligible for github copilot" and then sent me to this page

[opaque wharf]

Oh, its Registry pattern

[rigid snow]

oh they kicked me from it a couple of days ago, i reapplied for student pack but now they require so much info it’s basically doxxing yourself. icba honestly

i mean they rejected the application because *a wall of requirements i didn’t fulfill*

also they now require billing info for copilot xd i wonder why

[rigid snow]

no more unlimited claude for me tho :(

[fast pagoda]

i mean it's either

1. linux only
2. dual boot
3. windows w/ wsl
4. only windows

1 = oof if you are used to windows env and not everything you have used forever is on linux and you dont really feel like totally upending the paradigm of how you interact with your pc at baseline (not a bad thing on its own but convenience wise not great)
2 = extra annoying these days with uefi and secureboot working together to fuck linux bootloading as hard as possible because "fuk u" - microsoft
3 = slightly less linux compat due to the fact that it's inherently running within windows which leads to fuckery at times wrt network interfaces and such BUT you get both environments
4 = cringe because you can only use windows

[sour harness]

you can also run Windows in a VM on linux

[opaque wharf]

This is de wae

[fast pagoda]

yeah but it's just worse than wsl is the other way around

[rigid snow]

i absolutely will not thanks for the suggestion

good luck playing any game with AC

[tender river]

i have a windows vm but i only use it like once or twice a year

[opaque wharf]

I don't

[fast pagoda]

if linux had some sort of wsl equivalent tier of interop it'd be a different story

[tender river]

and you dont have to play every game you know you can just not play them right

[sour harness]

Eh, if it doesn't run under Proton just find another game to play

[tender river]

theres a billion games in the world you dont have to play aaa slop

[opaque wharf]

We cooking mintcandy now, LFG

[rigid snow]

i absolutely know but unfortunately i have so-called “friends” which i know is a wild concept

[tender river]

yeah thats fair

anyway, dual booting should work for that

[rigid snow]

i do

[opaque wharf]

Nah, nag your friend to play other games instead

[fast pagoda]

i mean regardless of the game or anything you want to use that strictly works better on win, i'd say there's probably a significantly larger proportion of the ecosystem that doesn't work well at all when trying to run it in a windows vm

as compared to running linux pkgs in wsl which generally have no issues

[tender river]

windows vms work just fine

[opaque wharf]

Do they support USB pass through now tho?

[fast pagoda]

just fine =/= nearly seamlessly

[tender river]

wine doesnt, but windows vms just have 0 issues besides possible bad configuration

[fast pagoda]

yes

[tender river]

vms are a pain to configure though, dual booting is easier

[manic birch]

Yes.

[rigid snow]

btw that’s also a fucking pain, many ACs especially the “very good 0 cheaters” kind require secure boot now like faceit ac

[opaque wharf]

So I can plug my USB device, and WSL could read it? Arbitrary USB device mind you

[fast pagoda]

and dual booting i'd argue as easy as it is, is still infinitely more annoying than using wsl is

[fast pagoda]

yes

[rigid snow]

vanguard probably too

[tender river]

if your entire life doesn't revolve around windows-only stuff like cad or graphics design or games with anticheat you either dont have to use windows at all, or you can dual boot it

[opaque wharf]

I see, WSL has come a long way then since last time I used it

[fast pagoda]

wsl2 is a whole different beast than wsl1, it's much less of a vm frankenstine thing

[tender river]

i liked wsl1 for how integrated it was but it was probably a maintenance hell

[rigid snow]

you don’t know what a frankenstein is unless you’ve seen docker on macos

[fast pagoda]

docker on macos
docker is a frankenstine on its own

[fast pagoda]

vanguard is malware

if anything it's a plus that linux can't use it

[manic birch]

I manage enterprise docker stuff..and having multi users can get painful..

[fast pagoda]

you couldn't pay me to put that shit on my computer

[olive sable]

i have done the thing

[rigid snow]

throw that into a qemu vm with a non dynamic sized disk image and performance issues

[fast pagoda]

beautiful

enterprise standard btw

[rigid snow]

i’ve had this happen btw

[fast pagoda]

the worst mfs you know just made a great point

damn

[rigid snow]

and i did move it to trash and never reinstalled it

[opaque wharf]

...what?

[wary rover]

I forgot that Apple makes computers too

[fast pagoda]

at this point i've just been using pcs for 25+ years and those have all been with windows in some form or another so while i do like linux and appreciate wsl for making it easier to have the benefits of it available for dev stuff, and have generally dual booted in some fashion for that entire time once i learned how, it's mostly a lazy comfort thing

[manic birch]

Most of the time it's fine but docker loves to be run as root so when you get into accessing things such has gpus.. it gets messy. Lots of groups.

[opaque wharf]

Now then, did it work

[olive sable]

yes

[fast pagoda]

docker doesn't just love to be run as root i'm pretty sure it requires it?

containerd is a daemon

[opaque wharf]

Very fitting. It is indeed a demon

[manic birch]

The damon itself yes, and you can setup group permissions.. but there are some things that it wants you to be root for device access

[fast pagoda]

that's why podman is better for non-root access cases

[manic birch]

yup. but when you live in a world where you have to setup what others want. heh

[rigid snow]

btw apple apparently introduced some sort of open source oci runner

[opaque wharf]

Oh great, the 25th standard

[rigid snow]

i'm not familiar might look into it

i mean oci IS a pre-existing standard

[fast pagoda]

https://github.com/apple/container this?

[manic birch]

Apple loves to make their own standards. Makes sense.. or something..

[rigid snow]

yep

this

[opaque sigil]

that's mac only no?

[rigid snow]

probably?

[fast pagoda]

i would imagine it's to address the fact that docker sucks on osx

[rigid snow]

You need an Apple silicon Mac to run container.

[fast pagoda]

wait why is there that AND this https://github.com/apple/containerization

[rigid snow]

i imagine this one is the backend

[fast pagoda]

you would think that

[opaque sigil]

(i touch this distro like once a month)

[fast pagoda]

but it doesnt describe it that way

[crude carbon]

I wonder if im the only programmer that builds their app to be multi threaded before ive even got half the main features implemented

[fast pagoda]

i'm the opposite

i'd prefer less than 1 thread

i semi thread my application

.25 threads only

[crude carbon]

lol

[opaque sigil]

that's the swift library that powers the app

[fast pagoda]

oh yeah you right, i was reading it the wrong way around

getting confused why containerization didnt mention container in its repo

[rigid snow]

apple/container/README.md:

container uses the Containerization Swift package for low level container, image, and process management.

[fast pagoda]

it's because container is citing containerization in its repo

not the other way around

[opaque sigil]

yeah cause containerization doesn't need container

[fast pagoda]

computer

[rigid snow]

very apple naming very not confusing thanks

ContainerKit

[fast pagoda]

yeah if it were me i think i'd have containerization built off container but w/e

seems more like container would be the base unit

[opaque sigil]

don't forget the thing that actually powers it, Virtualization

[fast pagoda]

tim apple strikes again with his genius

[rigid snow]

the worst part is this isn't even a joke

[fast pagoda]

at least they went ahead and reinvented gguf but shittier for ML

thank god for mlx

[opaque wharf]

What did they make in that space?

[fast pagoda]

mlx

basically their version of .gguf but it only supports 4 bit and 8 bit quants

and it only runs on apple

hardware

very integrated with metal

so it's just a worse gguf if you want your model to run slower

but god dammit you have apple sillycon

[opaque wharf]

I swear some programmers need creativity with naming. Vulkan, Molten, Metal, Virtualization, Container, Containerization.

[fast pagoda]

i preferred mantle over them all

[opaque wharf]

Also that

[fast pagoda]

at least mantle kinda makes sense as a name

it's like the mantle layer ya know

lower level closer to the silicon

makes sense

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, because the other has established the geologic(?) term

[fast pagoda]

silicon is a rock

close enough for me

[opaque wharf]

Hmmm, fair enough I guess

[rigid snow]

for apple app apis it's actually very nice to have them be called <Thing>Kit

[fast pagoda]

MoneyIncineratorKit

[rigid snow]

you're like: aha, this one helps me integrate <Thing>

[opaque wharf]

It sure is. But when released on the open source ecosystem it became confusing

[fast pagoda]

well, it's apple so they probably consider themselves the inventor of whatever thing it is anyways

[rigid snow]

eh not really, almost none of it is cross-platform

[fast pagoda]

apple just invented containerization guys

[opaque wharf]

Also, WebAPI

[fast pagoda]

what a novel concept

[rigid snow]

can they uninvent it please so docker never happens

[fast pagoda]

nope that's locked in

as a small bonus/treat you can have kubernetes still

[olive sable]

HEADPHONE WARNING

[rigid snow]

docker outweighs any positives gained

[fast pagoda]

holy shit

you were not kidding

[olive sable]

i decided to add the text in obs jsut in case

[fast pagoda]

i despite docker but don't dislike kubernetes somehow

does that make me mentally ill

[gritty dust]

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Fire

bro

[wary rover]

He didnt lie about headphones warning

[hoary lion]

new

[olive sable]

its so quiet compared to what i just recorded lmao

[gritty dust]

Lol

its peak tho haha

[wary rover]

Ran into this issue while uploading a video to youtube

On youtube it's so much quieter

[hoary lion]

what is #programming working on this beautiful sunday afternoon

[olive sable]

same thing with discord ye

[fast pagoda]

complaining about docker and apple existing

and sam is working on the cure for hearing

[olive sable]

engine

[rigid snow]

my guy reached POSITIVE LUFS you DONT UNDERSTAND HOW LOUD THAT IS

[hoary lion]

no dont cuss my lil docker

[gritty dust]

very quiet fr

[opaque wharf]

Despite the rough start, docker has become way too far from k8s now

[wary rover]

Does short-term under 2.0 LUFS stands for short-term hearing damage?

[rigid snow]

lufs is perceived loudness at one volume it's not db

[olive sable]

i just lowered my audio from 24 to 8 while listenign to it so

[rigid snow]

but probably

in this particular case

[wary rover]

Humor might not be my strong suit

[fast pagoda]

kubectl is just infinitely better than docker's cli

[wary rover]

Nothing is my strong suit to be fair

[olive sable]

the audio fuckery is done in obs so i only have to check if it recorded well.

[fast pagoda]

plus not having to fk around with the individual container but the cluster mainly

kubert manages to not explode far more readily than docker

[rigid snow]

the default target in the plugin is -23 lufs

[amber fractal]

Pretty quiet tbh

[opaque wharf]

That's because docker is trying to compete with k8s the way I see it. Meanwhile podman embrace that k8s is widely used standard

[opaque sigil]

good time to have a limiter on every input

[opaque wharf]

Well, "trying"

[olive sable]

the problem is discord compressionin, cuz if i make it louder on my side it just clips out of the hearable range

[rigid snow]

this is at 0db peak too, literally how

[rigid snow]

THIS IS 0DB PEAK A LIMITER WILL NOT DO SHIT

[opaque sigil]

nah it does

[olive sable]

[rigid snow]

assuming it's set at 0db

of course

which it isn't

[fast pagoda]

k8s networking is actually stable because it has to be because the pod itself needs it to be
they also can self recover much better if something does break, same reasoning?
i fucking hate docker-compose or ever going near one

[opaque wharf]

While on the topic, dB units are wack

[olive sable]

these are my settings, just a +50dB

[fast pagoda]

oh just a casual +50db

[olive sable]

its logarithmic or something idk

[opaque sigil]

exponential

[rigid snow]

db units absolutely do make sense

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, but that's not the issue

[fast pagoda]

decibels are log

not exponential

[opaque wharf]

People just casually throwing around dB without defining the standard frame is my issue

[fast pagoda]

i think this is hanging at my dr office

[amber fractal]

That is my issue as well

[rigid snow]

for sound pressure maybe not, for signal amplitude yes

[olive sable]

each +10db is 2x as loud iirc

[amber fractal]

That's what I remeber

[rigid snow]

i specified peak each time btw; a limiter will be rms

[olive sable]

so +50db is x2x2x2x2x2
so x32

a casual 32 times louder

[fast pagoda]

no, each 10 db is 10x more soud intensity

[olive sable]

idk

[fast pagoda]

10 db is 10x 0db
20 db is 100x 0db
30 db is 1000x 0db

add a 0 each 10

you PERCEIVE it as about 2x as loud

[wary rover]

Have you ever heard of primeagen on youtube? Youtube now recommends me coding stuff, watched one of his shorts where he is very passionate about something and all the comments are calling him an idiot lmao

[fast pagoda]

there's a difference between sound intensity vs perceived loudness

[opaque wharf]

Research papers are the worst when it comes to this stuff. They just expect people outside of the field to understand what they're talking about when using deci-Bell unit

[amber fractal]

real

[fast pagoda]

he's entertaining at times but he's a talking head and should not be taken as gospel

he's a streamer

with good experience to back him up tho

just opinionated as we all are

[olive sable]

thats just how it is.
some people like brackets on a newline, and all the haters feel the need to ridicule you

[wary rover]

Coding people are very harsh it seems like

[amber fractal]

[fast pagoda]

very opinionated

[opaque wharf]

Remember the sausage? Yeah, that was a wild take ngl

[fast pagoda]

there's a reason you see various tools that enforce their creator's idea of how something should be described as "opinionated" up front

[wary rover]

I no longer like the sausage

[olive sable]

[opaque wharf]

At least sam bracket is still something within expectation, but yours were just so out of left field that I didn't anticipate in my lifetime lol

[fast pagoda]

hey we have our things

me? i cast everything to Any and hope for the best

[olive sable]

oh with sausage you mean you're unreadable code?

[rigid snow]

it was amusing and not horrible to read except for the two statements one line thing

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, amusing is the word

[wary rover]

I felt like compacting the code and arranging it by keywords was very smart and neat

[olive sable]

very demure

[fast pagoda]

it is for just you probably but not for anyone else to ever understand what it's doing

without being pissed

[amber fractal]

me when

val2 = (val1 := 1) + 1

[olive sable]

wait

what

[fast pagoda]

we have to go deeper

[rigid snow]

to be clear this isn't what was happening there

[opaque wharf]

Value2 is assigned by value 1 + 1. Value 1 is assigned 1

[olive sable]

i know

but its stupid

[fast pagoda]

your question: 'why?'
the answer: 'hhehhehee'

[opaque wharf]

Yè, thats cursed alright

[rigid snow]

for context

[wary rover]

I was very proud of it at the time

[amber fractal]

This works better in python and I don't know how to feel about that

[minor crag]

OK

The script works

But It takes maybe 30 seconds to convert 1 tensor

[fast pagoda]

main() right into {println! is epic

[opaque wharf]

Now you see why that caught me off guard

[minor crag]

And I think I implemented stuff wrong so I might only be getting 16bit acruacy

[fast pagoda]

aint got TIME nor SPACE for a newline

[fast pagoda]

in 3000 years itll be done kinda accurately so it's on its way

[olive sable]

@rigid snow muhahahaahah. you're behind

[wary rover]

It's the welcoming line to the player. I still do that in my new program that I write. Is it bad?

[opaque wharf]

Yours and Sam are within reasonable expectation for me, even if a bit deranged take

[fast pagoda]

it's just a lot, makes it look like it's some sort of broken copy paste at first

[opaque wharf]

No, as I said, its just amusing the first time I saw that and your reasoning for said code to be so tight

[fast pagoda]

it works though

i mean the syntax is fine

if ugly

"ugly"

[wary rover]

I do it like this now

[minor crag]

My code doesn't work with 16 bit accuracy so I might be wasting hours

[opaque sigil]

you're writing rust you lost the pretty syntax card either way

[olive sable]

[rigid snow]

nice bait, however as you've rejected my PR i am absolutely NOT going to pull changes and keep a byte-perfect fork going just because i want different brackets

[wary rover]

I have discovered the dark magic of cargo mft

[amber fractal]

[olive sable]

have fun with you're featureless copy of my worthless test code????

[fast pagoda]

my favourite touch here has to be the "Congratualtions" after that code sausage extrusion gets done @wary rover

[opaque wharf]

You hear this Sam?

[fast pagoda]

really gives that Big Rigs Over the Road Racing You're Winner ! energy

[olive sable]

not really.
cargo mft?
car go my favorite trainwreck

[minor crag]

Does "Tensor type F16" mean they are 16 bit tensors?

[wary rover]

I don't know why, but "sausage extrusion" got me dying

[fast pagoda]

also the significant amount of .unwrap() i've never quite seen before

[wary rover]

It's such a funny word combination

[opaque wharf]

It means they"re using 16-bit floating point yes. Not necessarily mean the size of the tensor will be 16-bit

[minor crag]

OK that's what I thought

[fast pagoda]

user types ten or 18 etc, that boi is crashing immediately

[minor crag]

Turns out I've implemented IEEE 754 (I think that's what it is) and am currently turning 16 bit tensors into 32 bit tensors

[fast pagoda]

mfw accidentally implement an international standard

[opaque wharf]

Why....

[fast pagoda]

from the 80s

[wary rover]

that's why I explicitly said from 1 to 10. If >10 - its users fault, if 10 crashes the code - it's a surprise interaction that will leave lasting impression and will be a funny memory

[opaque wharf]

Why is #programming filled with cursed stuff

[olive sable]

classic

[fast pagoda]

holy gigabased never change

[olive sable]

[minor crag]

Also I couldn't get the safetensors library to work so its manually reading the file

[wary rover]

Wait, does 10 actually crash? I wanna check

[rigid snow]

i'm not into ml very much, is there actually a reason you need f32 tensors? surely f16 has enough precision for anything?

[fast pagoda]

no but the string "ten" should

i assume 10 would be fine

[minor crag]

All in pure python :3

[olive sable]

i read that as python 3 lmao

[fast pagoda]

but with all that unwrap going on it would explode if fed a str

[minor crag]

Well anyways its converted 28 of the 291 tensors (that's just for the encoder)

[opaque wharf]

I think Toast or someone has told you before that technically even Q8 or Q4 can be enough precision for ML depending on the model

[fast pagoda]

try ten

[olive sable]

that is ten

[opaque wharf]

Because the magnitude is often more important than the actual specific value

[fast pagoda]

i mean the string

'ten'

[rigid snow]

it's gonna panic obviously

why

[fast pagoda]

oh that's all

i was just saying it has no handling of anything other than exactly what it wants and nothign else

[rigid snow]

.unwrap() on parse value

=panic

[fast pagoda]

yeah it would explode that was what i was saying but he was trying 10 because interpreted that ten as equal to 10

[wary rover]

Why the fuck would I try "ten"? Did I tell the user to write down a word that represents a number? No. If it's crashing its their fault and they need to reevaluate their life choices that lead them to typing "ten" when guessing the number

[amber fractal]

Well frick, I'm doing more cursed code. Help me

[fast pagoda]

hey just consider me pylance over here just giving u a friendly linter warning

but your mindset has upper management written all over it

[wary rover]

I'm playing into a bit

I do understand that a code I wrote for practice of new stuff I learned is not ultra mega stable

[fast pagoda]

i prefer the snausage approach

it's fresh

[wary rover]

I just wanted to make a simple guessing game, not the most secure guessing game in the world

[rigid snow]

snausage

unwrapping everywhere is based

[rigid snow]

is that dog food

[fast pagoda]

it's a brand of dog treat lol

childhood golden retriever loved her some snausages

probably made of grade Z sausage

and asbestos

[wary rover]

I don't remember why I used so many and to be completely honest every time I read what unwrap does I immediately forget, but it decreases chances of error message by around 20%, so I slap it once in a while for good measure

[rigid snow]

i do not live in a western country and judging by the produced in kansas label it's us only and even if i was i still would not know

[wary rover]

It's description makes it sound very scary, like "if it doesn't like something it will EXPLODE and KILL everything". You use it and it's just chilling there, helping you in some mysterious way

[fast pagoda]

it's basically a sledgehammer method to remove a container from a value and will explode if the value is not what you expect it to be at that point

[rigid snow]

but it will

[fast pagoda]

you're basically saying LEMME SEE THE CONTENTS OF THIS RIGHT NOW!!!! but if the contents are unexpectedly None or something

it WILL explode

[rigid snow]

None or Err

[fast pagoda]

it's either the thing you expect or it's a fat stinky L

no in between

[wary rover]

Uuuh, Ive never made something where a value in a container can appear and disappear. I kinda coded around that

[amber fractal]

I'm dealing with more syntax errors than should be possible.

[fast pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/interstellar-cost-little-maneuver-51years-51-gif-24426899

[wary rover]

You clearly never wrote a code sausage

[fast pagoda]

but you did, the result of a function is a container, the type of the value itself is a container that you are breaking with the unwrap

[amber fractal]

I have, this is worse

[rigid snow]

at that point have you considered the language server is for a different language

[amber fractal]

Trust, this is cursed one liner

there is no saving this

[fast pagoda]

man's got one(1) line of code that somehow has 3000 syntax errors

[wary rover]

I will bookmark this message and review it again when I will have better understanding if the basics. It's not like you explained it poorly, I'm just very inexperienced and barely understand anything

[rigid snow]

what's the return value of one(1)

[opaque wharf]

Its because after that point the program can't reason anymore. Rust is statically typed, so you assign variable "a" some type, and when you do some stuff that somehow result in "a" no longer have the type of what the program expects, it cannot continue anything since the original assumption is broken (that a being some type)

[fast pagoda]

think of it like you're opening schrodinger's box on the value of whatever you're unwrapping

until you unwrap it, it could be an error, it could be a value, it could be santa claus

but unwrap you're collapsing the wave function and observing the value

[rigid snow]

except it's absolutely deterministic

[fast pagoda]

but yeah it's not like unrelated to the prior code or anything

so it's gonna make sense what's in there

it just might not be what you expect from the code as written

[rigid snow]

this is a very overloaded discussion on a very simple concept

[wary rover]

Uuuh... Kill the value by starting a new scope so it is static in each chosen scope? (I have an inner understanding of what I said, but I probably sound like a lunatic)

[minor crag]

51 tensors done!!! (The encoder has 291 and the decoder has a few thousand)

[opaque wharf]

Unwrap basically put whatever is in the boxed type onto the variable (boxed type here just means it could be anything for all intents and purpose). So if the type doesn't match, you broke the assumption. That's why for boxed type you should check what type is it returning and handle accordingly

If the type matches the declared type, great, proceed as usual. But if not?

[wary rover]

Also, unrelated question: why the fuck are nested functions not called when their mother-function is called? Like why do you think I nested these functions? To look pretty?

[fast pagoda]

it would have the effect of reducing surprise errors just unwrapping everywhere because by the time the thing reliably finishes executing you'll know damn well what type is coming from each thing you're unwrapping

but it also means instead of gracefully handling it somewhere you intend to you're just ripping the bandaid off wherever and it might not be a good spot to handle it

[opaque wharf]

...what?

[opaque sigil]

please don't actually do that outside of debugging

[fast pagoda]

i would assume the nested function would be called if the mother function passed something to them that would call them no

[opaque sigil]

actually even then

.expect exists

[fast pagoda]

hey not me dont look at me im just saying cuz he mentioned earlier that he just does it because it reduces errors

[wary rover]

If I dont call those they just chill there. Not called even tho defined

[fast pagoda]

why would they be called if they are not being called from the mother function

[opaque wharf]

[fast pagoda]

of course you need to call them to get them to run

[desert wave]

"If you don't call those they just chill there" this applies to all code ever

[fast pagoda]

otherwise it's just a defined function

i don't import a module and expect the code in there to just run

[opaque sigil]

i do (python moment)

[opaque wharf]

I have a better question to ask than that actually...

[wary rover]

But... But they are inside the call function. They are its organs. Imagine calling your friend without calling their heart too and your friend drops dead

[opaque wharf]

Why did you nest them?

[fast pagoda]

it's like calling your friend but not calling her autonomic functions that cause her heart to beat

and then being surprised she died

[wary rover]

I am just saying that its counterintuitive

[fast pagoda]

[minor crag]

66!!!!

[fast pagoda]

intuition is subjective so i suppose it could be

[fast pagoda]

didnt you say it would all be for naught if it's actually running fp16 and that's what it's doing?? why u no kill it

[minor crag]

Because apparently my code is turning the 16 bit tensors into 32 bit (I don't remember coding that)

I'm losing accuracy but eh

[fast pagoda]

ohh yeah nvm you did say that

[minor crag]

This was hard enough to get working

[fast pagoda]

my b

[minor crag]

Its ok

[opaque sigil]

huh why would turning fp16 into fp32 lose accuracy

[fast pagoda]

well hopefully it still works when it finishes due to being automagically 32 bits

[wary rover]

It was my twisted representation of collective advise of this chat. I was like: maybe I should make random fishie generator a separate function and then to_string the output or smt like that. And then people told me something that I didnt understand shit about, but was to embarassed to ask for details of what seemed to be the most dumbed down explanation imaginable aaaand this

[opaque sigil]

it's just a matter of adding a couple 0s

[fast pagoda]

i assume more like not gaining any accuracy

still 16bit accuracy but represented as 32 for the lulz

[opaque wharf]

You could define it outside of the function and it will be just fine.

[tender river]

what do you mean by defined? because this is not "definition" in the standard programming terminology

[wary rover]

I know jackshit about programming terminology :D

[minor crag]

So I was supposed to use the 32 bit model but I downloaded the 16 bit version

Then somehow I wrote a 16 bit to 32 bit thingy (I don't remember doing that)

So I'll end up with a 32 bit model with 16 bit tensors

[tender river]

oh i see what you mean, "defining" points at the entire function rather than some particular expression in it

[minor crag]

So its lower accuracy than what I originally wanted

[opaque wharf]

Oh chay you wouldn't belive the cursed shit that has happened the moment you were gone lol

[minor crag]

But uses the same space

[opaque wharf]

I like it when shit is cursed like this tho

[opaque sigil]

ah

[fast pagoda]

if you have a true nested function i dont think it can even see variables from the mother function

[opaque sigil]

makes sense

[fast pagoda]

it'll just cause a compiler error

[minor crag]

No its a matter of doing Decode IEEE 754 half-precision floats to float32 bytes directly (don't ask me what those words mean)

[opaque wharf]

I think it could?

Need to read back on the rust book tho

[opaque sigil]

yes and you do that by setting a couple extra 0 bits in the number (casting does this)

[minor crag]

And for some reason that takes 30~ seconds per tensor

[opaque sigil]

uhh that doesn't sound right

[opaque wharf]

Yep, it cannot

[opaque sigil]

unless your cpu is very very slow and/or the tensors are gigantic

[fast pagoda]

like if you did

fn outer() {
    let var = 10;
    fn inner(var: i32) {
        println!("var is uhhhh: {}", var);
    }
    inner(var);
}

fn main() {
    outer();
}

it would just explode

[wary rover]

Can't wait to do hashmap and serde tomorrow. I'm gonna suffer so much :D

[opaque wharf]

Ye

[minor crag]

It isn't but I won't touch it until its done (I'm scared)

[rigid snow]

there are two enums built into rust, Option<T> and Result<T, E> - T is the type you expect to get, and E is the type that the error will be. assume we have:

/// Some function that returns an optional 32-bit integer.
fn opt() -> Option<i32> {
  Some(42)
  // None // or this
}

/// Some function that returns a 32-bit integer, but can error.
fn res() -> Result<i32, bool> { // for simplicity sake, let's say the error will be a boolean
  Ok(42)
  // Err(true) // or this
}

then, usually working with these types looks like this

fn process_opt() -> Option<()> { // empty result but still Option!
  opt()?; // the ? will get the Option value if it's Some, and INSTANTLY make the whole function return None if it's None.
  // or, even:
  if let Some(n) = opt() {
    // this basically unwrapped 42 into n regardless of what the process_opt function returns - ignores when it's None !
    println!("{}", n); // or something
  }
}

fn process_res() -> Result<(), bool> { // empty result but still Result, and *the error type must match*!
  res()?; // the ? will get the Result value if it's Ok, and INSTANTLY make the whole function return the same error if it's Err.
  // same thing with the if statement works but it's gonna be `if Ok(n) = res() {`...
}

unwrapping is for when you don't care about the cases when the value is None or Err; basically "f it, i don't want to handle that and rather crash the program". so in your case you've decided "i don't expect the user to ever enter something that cannot be parsed into an int - i don't want to handle that case, i'd rather crash it"

you can skip reading the second block if you don't want to

[wary rover]

Back at the sausage times - yes. Now I just build everything in a way, where every value is deterministic and cannot be anything but thi one specific type in this specific part of the code

I think

-# I hope

[rigid snow]

nothing is perfect and errors will be a thing that happen, maybe not in your code but in someone elses (a library, an api you're calling, etc.) so you can't avoid this

[wary rover]

Like my "game" right now is basically a menu. In the menu you can either click at the box od some sort, or miss it with a cursor. You can't click in a way that makes the code explode

[opaque wharf]

I love that internet historian can refer to a time in #programming by during sausage era

[fast pagoda]

if the world worked like that it'd be a boring and safe place

[fast pagoda]

You can't click in a way that makes the code explode

that's what you think

nature can ALWAYS build a better idiot

[wary rover]

I mean what can you POSSIBLY do to explode this

[fast pagoda]

well you could input "Catch"

[opaque wharf]

A cosmic ray hitting on the cpu register during the evaluation

[wary rover]

Thought of this, input is sterelized and trimmed

Ha!

[opaque wharf]

Intermittent power failure

[rigid snow]

that falls into the catch-all arm, nothing will crash

[wary rover]

I would not even be mad if this happened

[opaque wharf]

Another process using HUGE amount of RAM and trashing the sytem

[amber fractal]

The more I do this, the more I require professional help

[opaque sigil]

you would be if your code ran on a rocket and it suddenly crashed due to that

[rigid snow]

sir this is a rust binary

[opaque wharf]

Indirect attack vector is the hard one to catch lol

[wary rover]

God I HOPE AND PRAY nobody will allow me to come close to the rocket

[rigid snow]

it needs an abacus and a rock to run

[minor crag]

107!!!!!!!

[opaque wharf]

Yeah but another process running alongside the rust binary could wreak havoc still. Then the rust binary could be killed due to OOM or other

[wary rover]

If I coded rocket controls it would drill to the core of the earth at launch, then explode, then explode again

[rigid snow]

assuming 0 memory left doesn’t the process that tries to allocate last get killed

[fast pagoda]

input İnfo where the İ doesn't have a lower case

[opaque wharf]

That would depend on the OS/kernel

[wary rover]

huh?

[opaque wharf]

It's always a heuristic and someone will always be mad

[rigid snow]

i always just assumed the most mem usage one got killed but this makes more sense

[fast pagoda]

like if you're sanitizing it but it can't be sanitized because there's nothing to change it to it might cause issues, it's hard to tell what you could do without seeing what else is being fed into that thing or how it's being trimmed/sanitized so i was just spitballing

[opaque sigil]

rust just ignores chars that can't be lower/upper-cased

[fast pagoda]

interesting

they have thought of everything at rust hq

[wary rover]

Feast upon the fruits of my labor to your hearts content

[fast pagoda]

it's impenetrable 😔

[rigid snow]

rust hq? is that where i should send complaints about my car having a hole in the floor

[fast pagoda]

yeah they are the guys who took in all those rust out toyota frames too

[amber fractal]

[wary rover]

That's a fine sausage right here

[amber fractal]

Just one line

so not really?

[rigid snow]

like a meat string then?

[fast pagoda]

error on line 1

it's all line 1

[wary rover]

I also love ])))] in the middle of it. Gives this sausage mildly spicy flavor profile

[amber fractal]

the fun part is that it is an object, so debugging is actually possible

importing random is a lot harder than it looks

[rigid snow]

if only you just used a language where you can just remove all whitespace and newlines

[amber fractal]

If only, but it is funny to do it in python

[wary rover]

Is "cannot be used in a comprehension iterable expression" compiler's way to say "The fuck?"

[amber fractal]

It is actually useless to assign a value in a loop, so it is valid normally

This is not normal

Now just a keyerror time

[wary rover]

Check him PC. It is not regular

[amber fractal]

I'll post working code once it works

[wary rover]

Is there an inbuilt way to make a loooong screenshot of your code in VScode? Or must you install loooong screenshot taker for this?

[amber fractal]

Neither

[dire turret]

chuck norris found page 404

[wary rover]

chuck norris came to IRS to collect their taxes

[unkempt citrus]

Why would you screenshot your code instead of copy pasting it

[rigid snow]

Iggly skilled programmer but that is not normally, This very very insane....They need to check him pc and ide.....Maybe he not vibecoding but maybe he using the ide deficit ...and this cant seem on ide screen..He needs to check-up....There Cursor Vibecoder with Streaming.....I think he still vibecoding...Iggly using ide deficit on Python scene ,ON BIG Tasks.Maybe everyone dont knows him trick.He incredible....I want to ask his where is the comming of your skill's ?

[amber fractal]

Because it isn't working yet

This counts as a debugging screenshot rather than actual code sending

[unkempt citrus]

Unless you draw big red angry arrows, I think code chunk still better

[fast pagoda]

there has to be one of the many 'codesnap' extensions in vsc that would take a screenshot of the entire file if you want

[wary rover]

What if I want to make a very big screenshot and send it to groupchat to let all my friends know that I am a very skilled and cool hackerman now and I type a lot of lines and they look very complex and there are a lot of colors in there, different colors mean different code things in coding, wouldn't expect you non-coders to understand, so I am explaining that to you non-coders

[fast pagoda]

idk because imagine taking a screenshot of something you can copy paste

[fast pagoda]

actually this is legitimate and real

tempting once again

the colourful icon is enticing

[opaque wharf]

Wtf is beautiful screenshot?

[amber fractal]

type("bwaaject",(object,),{"__init__":lambda self:(None,self.init())[0],"init":lambda self:[func(*args) for func,args in zip((print, self.init_random, self.randint),(("bwaa",),(),()))], "init_random":lambda self:exec("import random",globals(),self.imports), "randint":lambda self:print(self.imports["random"].randint(1,10)),"imports":{}})()

output is bwaa\n*1-10*

[opaque wharf]

What does type() do in python?

[amber fractal]

two things

[opaque wharf]

Making object of specified type?

[fast pagoda]

basically an apple style screenshot with a dropshadow and a fake border

what toast posted

[opaque wharf]

Sure is fancy lol

[rigid snow]

NO, bad, bad

[opaque sigil]

is especially nice for mobile

[amber fractal]

one is outputing the type of an object passed in with 1 arg, the other is functional object creation when given 3 args

we love diffrent code paths depending on amount of args

[wary rover]

Suffering? Insanity? Pfft, this is just an every day reality for me and other coders. You will never understand the world in which I live. Every day is a fierce battle of man VS machine, a grueling and unending sequence of tasks that require all your brain power and then require some more. Be more humble when you speak to a CODER like me, kiddo

[opaque wharf]

Alright, then I know wtf this one liner monstrosity does just from that alone lol

[rigid snow]

you know what? go ahead and try it, i really really doubt you’ll actually enjoy it and if you will you’ll get burned by something eventually, i give it a couple months at most

[amber fractal]

I wanted to actually have self.random, but it was not vibing with it so I settled for self.imports["random"]

[rigid snow]

just don’t look up flutter state management

it’s grim out there

[opaque wharf]

unjs

[amber fractal]

I think this needs more functionallity tbh, can't think of anything atm

[opaque sigil]

bun my beloved

[amber fractal]

accepting ideas (this will not end badly surely)

[unkempt citrus]

https://hackertyper.net/

[wary rover]

yo, that's actually cool

Do all super skilled and smart programmers have a folder with links to cool websites or what? Chay also sent a couple of those

[fast pagoda]

239 downloads

[opaque wharf]

Probably from the dev

...right?

[fast pagoda]

he was desperately trying to figure out how to rename his addon

239 times

[wary rover]

Looks like something I'd need, but I'd rather smash my head against the table for 20 minutes until I figure out how to do that myself

[unkempt citrus]

Just good memory and google

[frozen igloo]

“Current”

[wary rover]

I will also be a cool programmer with good memory and google one day

[fast pagoda]

type("bwaaject",(object,),{"__init__":lambda self:(None,self.init())[0],"init":lambda self:[func(*args) for func,args in zip((print, self.init_random, self.randint, self.profound_analysis),(("bwaa",),(),(),()))], "init_random":lambda self:exec("import random",globals(),self.imports), "randint":lambda self:print(self.imports["random"].randint(1,10)), "profound_analysis":lambda self: (exec("".join(map(chr,[102,114,111,109,32,102,117,110,99,116,111,111,108,115,32,105,109,112,111,114,116,32,114,101,100,117,99,101])),self.imports),print("bwaawagga = " + str(self.imports["reduce"](lambda x,y:x+y, [ord(c)&1 for c in "".join(map(chr,[98,119,97,97]))]))))[-1], "imports":{}})()

random math

this outputs

bwaa
5
bwaawagga = 3

i had to do it on https://www.online-python.com/ because my linters/formatters and shit kept formatting it lmao

[wary rover]

Isn't potential difference in the net of neurons not strictly binary? So the current can only occur between two neurons of potentially 10 or more that can potentially generate it?

[fast pagoda]

action potentials are all or nothing

as far as activation goes but no the potential isn't a binary switch

well the output is on a binary switch it wont fire until it hits a certain threshold

[amber fractal]

took me half a minute to figure out where the new import came from

[fast pagoda]

lol snuck it in up there

[wary rover]

Yeah, this is a much better way of saying what I was trying to say. They can't fire all at once by design

[frozen igloo]

Wouldn’t a large portion of those potentials also cancel eachother out or be in parallel?

[minor crag]

It is 3:43 am and I'm at tensor 215 of the encoder

[fast pagoda]

if they do it's when you get a yung siezure

[wary rover]

"Every time you think you understand how electromagnetism works - you, in fact, don't" - my physics teacher in highschool

[fast pagoda]

fucking magnets

how do they work

[fast pagoda]

i hope it outputs something when you go to use it instead of just being busted

[wary rover]

Magic. That's why they are called MAGnets

[fast pagoda]

oh shit u right

[minor crag]

I might run out of storage before I can test it

I'm gonna end it, change to a bigger drive, cry, and leave it going until tomorrow evening

[fast pagoda]

crazy thing about neurons is that it's kinda assumed at this point with dendrites actually doing logic on the "wire" and not just being a static conductor, a single neuron being basically a 2 layer artificial nn on its own

[wary rover]

All this time I wanted to ask what on gods green earth Cathy is making and what kind of code monster grows on her PC, but I feel like I am not authorized to inquire. Like a D class trying to ask what a member of O5 is up to in SCP universe

[fast pagoda]

which means for example a single neuron can do XOR

which you cannot do on a single layer NN

[wary rover]

I might need to look into advanced logic since I made a serious decision to seriously learn coding

[fast pagoda]

i recommend watching some videos on simple-ish computers

[wary rover]

I remember that I found a book on mathematical logic on the attic when I was 8, flipped through it and declared that its stupid and logic is when I use common sense. Never opened it ever since

[fast pagoda]

there is of course ben eater's classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyznrdDSSGM&list=PLowKtXNTBypGqImE405J2565dvjafglHU series

[wary rover]

Will check it out after I pass out and wake up at 4pm

[unkempt citrus]

https://youtu.be/cILfJwtGcqc?feature=shared

[wary rover]

I recall there was a cool video by codebullet called "making a calculator out of marbles"

That one would be informative too I recon

[opaque wharf]

Neuron firing all at once is called seizures

[wary rover]

ALL at once is not even seizure anymore. It demands its own name. Like superseizure or smt like that

[opaque wharf]

What the actual f is happening at #programming

[wary rover]

The Renaissance

I don't know how to write this word actually

My code be like

[fast pagoda]

oh im sorry sir biome

[wary rover]

🚙

[fast pagoda]

leaked

[spark vortex]

wait what is this

whats the context here lol

[olive sable]

goodmorning

it is monday

[rough bloom]

it sure is

[fast pagoda]

intellisense/autocomplete got a bit ahead of itself because i had been editing a list of options in a drop down and put like 3 gemini 2.5 models in before that line

so it was like

idk gemini 3.5 seems right

and offered that as a possible completion

[fast pagoda]

just yolo merged so many fucking files on two branches that conflicted from diverging liek 2 weeks somehow

of a project

im sure that'll not be a huge pain in the ass shortly

[tight tinsel]

had to walk the massive probably 2-3kg pc like 2 kilometers

can barely write with my hands now

[scarlet arch]

my merge request with the 256 arm match is finally on its way being merged. luckily a lot of cases can be merged. :P fingers crossed the fuzzer doesn't hit the supposed unreachable cases :)

you guys doing anything fun? :D

[dry charm]

Slowly writing AC for a game

[scarlet arch]

AC? :o

[dry charm]

AntiCheat

[scarlet arch]

ah :D

neat

[stray dragon]

yet another AC acronym

[dry charm]

well, it has been used for a long time 😄

[spring nest]

im so bored

[wary rover]

I had to unplug an ethernet cable going from the router into PC for a while and while it was laying on the floor under the table I scooted across the room on my gaming chair and turned the cable into roadkill

So now I must choose either Wi-Fi or internet connection on my PC

[opaque wharf]

Drink water

[spring nest]

nah

[opaque wharf]

Tether phone wifi connection to PC

[wary rover]

Speed was abysmal and Helldivers 2 said "your internet connection is ass"

And google tab loads for like 7 seconds

So I'll go grab another one from the store today

[spring nest]

cat

[tight tinsel]

i forgot to grab the power cord for the pc from my friend

i just have a brick on my floor now

[opaque wharf]

A higher effort shitpost for once

[opaque wharf]

Take it from other appliance that is non-essential

[amber fractal]

[spring nest]

im drinking my own saliva

[sage crag]

down to 1096 bytes for hello world

[opaque wharf]

100 byte challenge (impossible)

[sage crag]

i want c to reach 1000 bytes first

[opaque wharf]

The string itself takes up 10% of the space lol

[sage crag]

not my problem it cant

[sage crag]

how big do you think the binary for this is

[opaque wharf]

I don't know how big the arena allocator is. Maybe around 500 byte?

Wait not that can't be right

[sage crag]

there's a whole hashmap in this binary

[opaque wharf]

Yeah I missed that somehow lol

[sage crag]

if "hello, world" is 1096 bytes, this is probably not 500 bytes

[opaque wharf]

Am tired man, just got home and chilling here

But my guesstimate is less than 10Kbyte

[sage crag]

spot on

[opaque wharf]

Noice

[sage crag]

its actually smaller than C hello world

with glibc**

i should add that so musl fans dont crucify me

[opaque wharf]

Even with -Os?

[sage crag]

yeh

[opaque wharf]

Dang

[uneven pulsar]

today is alan bday

today for his tribute i made a random fact generator bot 🔥

[sage crag]

if u know any way to make it smaller lmk

[uneven pulsar]

i was just working with directory paths issues lol

[opaque wharf]

Not without going to asm lol. And at that point just ditch the libc

[sage crag]

true! this is what we did too

lily.{target, config} := @use("../lib.hb")

@export("_start", fn(): never {
    main := fn(args: []^u8): uint @import("main")
    args: ^^u8 = @bit_cast(@frame_pointer())
    target.exit_group(main(args[2..2 + @bit_cast((args + 1).*)]))
})
@export("memcpy", target.memcopy)

the runtime is written in hblang, we do not link to libc at all

demonstration

[opaque wharf]

I'm curious what is the origin of hblang and how did you come to find it? I only ever heard that language here

[sage crag]

hblang was invented because ableos needed a language that compiled to its executable bytecode

i came across it when it was very new when i joined ableos

[opaque wharf]

That just leads to more question about AbleOS lol

Is it a hobby os or a research project or something else?

Because I once tried to check the repo and find info but only find bits and pieces here and there

And even then, some of the site is down (I think the able corp one?)

[sage crag]

it is a hobby project

[sage crag]

minor misconception since we changed URLs and then got bot protection

https://git.ablecorp.eu/

[sage crag]

https://git.ablecorp.eu/AbleOS/ableos
the one you want is this one

its a bit broken at the moment since no one has been maintaining it for a few months

we have all been busy with other things

[opaque wharf]

I can't imagine creating a whole new ecosystem as a hobby

[sage crag]

yeah

[opaque wharf]

But then again, it's because my hobby mainly consist of hardware or higher level stuff lol

[sage crag]

repo for the stdlib can be found here

i should really update the working features section huh

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, its always the docs that is a chore

[sour harness]

Thank you Cursor + Gemini 2.5 pro

I've found that when working with Cursor you should remove technical and documentation debt immediately. It immensely improves the output you get later.

[opaque wharf]

Well, yeah. It's language model. The more context matches what it describe the better the result theoretically will be

But also, if the training data is garbage then so is the output

[fast pagoda]

it will alter its behavior from the bad context as much as the good yeah

they also are just strraight up way worse at subsequent inquiries

so it's best to restart new chat for everything

if you intend on multiple questions or something

[sour harness]

yeah, never reuse chats for unrelated queries

[fast pagoda]

you know what i found is that jules is suuuper good at making like code maps and detailed docs, it just spends a ton of time on it where other llms tend to be relatively "lazy" in that they keep it shallow unless really prodded

i guess cuz as an "agent" thing it's being compelled to complete the task

o3 diagram

jules doing the same diagram

same instructions

that thing goes pretty deep into everything

[opaque wharf]

PSA

[fast pagoda]

pacman: i cannot continue 😔

[opaque wharf]

Intel and nVidia vendor size is 100MB wtf

So the original linux-firmware package that is big is not even for the hardware that I use

[tight tinsel]

dont have any other appliance with the samme plug

its alright ill pick one up from my friend tomorrow

[opaque wharf]

See, this is why we usually have the cable drawer

[rough bloom]

damn, two intervention-required updates in a row

[uneven pulsar]

tbh using json to store data i waaaaaaay better way to manipulate python data

[rare bridge]

this coach next stop display is running lubuntu

no clue what the l stands for

[uneven pulsar]

isnt it a command message display for a linux distro?

[trim valve]

I went past a train yesterday that had its ip address and mac address on the side displays

[uneven pulsar]

wtf

[unkempt citrus]

Isn't it for Lightweight? Thats what I remmeber when i was looking at light weight distros to install on my 15 year old laptop

[safe path]

no the L in lubuntu stands for LXQt

like how kubuntu is KDE

[opaque wharf]

To be fair, this is my first intervention update in the history of my arch journey

[uneven pulsar]

its a ubuntu extension?

[rigid snow]

eh more like ubuntu flavor

[uneven pulsar]

so i am right?

[rigid snow]

it's desktop ubuntu but with lxqt instead of gnome

[uneven pulsar]

ooh

[rigid snow]

not an extension it doesn't extend anything

[uneven pulsar]

an extension?

[uneven pulsar]

oh ok

[rigid snow]

it replaces the default DE

[unkempt citrus]

neato, just a conincidence then that they advertised as being lighter too

[noble zodiac]

no matter what letter you put in front of ubuntu its still shit

[opaque wharf]

God damnit, my wifi card is intel so I need the chungus intel firmware vendor

[uneven pulsar]

pc or laptop?

[opaque wharf]

Laptop

[uneven pulsar]

get a gaming one

i am gonna buy a asus g14

[opaque wharf]

No, my current one is still working. I'm just annoyed that the path of least resistance is having other intel firmware that I don't really need

Also Intel wireless card is better than other at the market IIRC

[rough bloom]

they are, yeah
Intel networking hardware in general is good

(mostly because their competition, Realtek, is garbage)

[opaque wharf]

This is the part that I hate sometimes about hardware. One vendor is good because they deliver the absolute minimum expectation because the other vendor is really just that bad. Can't have free nice things in life huh

[noble zodiac]

our 40g network cards are intel as well

very reliable

[wary rover]

Random question: so, I heard that using a lot of dependencies in your program is bad, cause compiling and stuff and you don't use full extent of functionality that every crate adds, yada-yada. Not as if it is an issue for me now, but like general coding habit of doing so is bad. So, what number of dependencies in use is considered bad? Is there such a number? If it is reached how can I negate/avoid this in the far future when it will be an issue?

[noble zodiac]

you cant define it as a number. Its a case by case thing

[opaque wharf]

A simple program usually require less dependency than more complicated program. Ideally, you don't even need a dependency, but even in C you'll probably rely on C Standard Library

[wary rover]

Like as far as I understand I need to implement a hashmap for storage of data from the previous runs of my program. My first config so to say. So, just for that, once again, as far as I understand, I need:
use std::fs::File;
use std::io::{Read, Write};
use serde::{Serialize, Deserialize};
use std::collections::HashMap;
use config::{Config, File};

It's looks bloated even for me

[noble zodiac]

std is the stdlib and not a dependecy. At least not in this context

[uneven pulsar]

prostgese SQL is awesome

I Love IT

[rough bloom]

use a dependency when you really need it
if your program is large enough to need many dependencies, then it's fine if it has many dependencies
if you just need one specific feature and it's easy to implement yourself, then you don't need it as a dependency

[noble zodiac]

especially when you are new you should at least try to implement things with the means given by the stdlib. Within reason

[opaque wharf]

Copy-pasting how some library do things is also an option without explicitly/directly pulling the whole package

[rough bloom]

oh yeah, also as chayleaf said last time this came up, you should be much more careful with this if you're building a library rather than an application

[wary rover]

I'm like 7 light years away from building a library lmao. I am preparing for creation of one JSON and one hashmap like it's a bossfight

[rough bloom]

for an application it only affects you and other maintainers (the ones compiling and packaging the application), but for libraries it affects every project that depends on your library in some way, often indirectly

[rough bloom]

yeah, just good to know so you get the full picture

[noble zodiac]

and then you end up with half a dozen different serde versions being compiled

[wary rover]

my pc randomly turned off. this is not very good

I think it's a sign

[scarlet arch]

I'm upmerging and it's already taking 7 minutes...

[rough bloom]

Byter

[scarlet arch]

Hello :D

oh no, conflicts

[rough bloom]

[uneven pulsar]

my school teaching me PosrgreSQL was A W

[wary rover]

Encountered terms "heap" and "stack" in one of the articles I am reading and decided to look it up. Now I feel like I won't exit this rabbit hole until tomorrows morning

[opaque sigil]

important to note that the only thing that differentiates them is the way memory is reserved

[opaque wharf]

Both is just a memory region. Heap is dynamically allocated while stack is fixed

How do I explain it

[opaque sigil]

and i guess the arbitrary line that says where one starts and the other ends

[opaque wharf]

A stack can only be used with a fixed-sized unit

[wary rover]

I am reading a document the size of holy bible now about this. Feel like I need to dumb it down and watch a couple of videos on yourube on this or something

[opaque sigil]

technically not true

[opaque wharf]

It's hard to explain it

[wary rover]

Want to be clear, I don't demand explanations from anyone, its my job to learn things I wanna learn, just wanted to share what I am up to with you guys. For no reason

[opaque sigil]

think of it as a stack of books, you can throw differently sized books on there but you always have to remove all books above to remove a specific book

as opposed to having a table where you lay out the books, you can just pick and choose specific empty spots to put/remove books from

[opaque wharf]

Yeah that's a much better explanation

[wary rover]

Mhm mhm, very insightful allegory

[opaque sigil]

the reason people say the heap is "slower" is because you (generally) don't get to choose where exactly your data lives, a separate allocator is responsible for finding empty spots
whereas on the stack is just decrementing a number to allocate space

[wary rover]

This is very close to the realm that I want to eventually learn, which is assembly. So I should probably double the diligence with which I am reading all of this

[opaque wharf]

Why do you want assembly?

[wary rover]

Because I love difficult stuff!

[opaque wharf]

Nice

[opaque sigil]

learning a bit of assembly never hurts

[wary rover]

It just cool as a concept

[opaque sigil]

(it hurts my sanity)

[wary rover]

Like you basically learn the language of a computer

You understand computer

Isn't it cool?

[opaque sigil]

well sort of

[opaque wharf]

Not quite

[opaque sigil]

but i guess it's about as low as you'll get for programming

[opaque wharf]

If you want to learn assembly, I think you can start from Z80 since it has a simple ISA

[wary rover]

My best friend is receiving an education in micro-electronics? Micro-engineering? The processor making people craft. So together we can get even lower theoretically

[wary rover]

I'll get my bearings in rust and when I'll feel comfortable there I would look up stuff like this and maybe something else that I will encounter by proxy in the process of rusting

[opaque wharf]

Silicone design has its own field, true. And I think when talking about CPU design and actual silicone design it is still separated

[sage crag]

ee oo ee oo

[uneven pulsar]

PostgreSQL is the best in my opinion

[opaque sigil]

debatable

[opaque wharf]

I can't embed postgresql to my MCU

[sage crag]

eeee

[wary rover]

I know that he had a practice last year in the facility that is closely adjacent to photolithography

[opaque wharf]

Dang, I wish we had that kind of facility in my country

[uneven pulsar]

MCU?

[wary rover]

this facility also makes solar panels for satellites

[opaque wharf]

Marvel Cinematic Universe

[uneven pulsar]

what dose marvel gotta do with database

[opaque wharf]

Nah I'm pulling your leg. It's microcontroller unit

[wary rover]

Why are you pulling their leg

[uneven pulsar]

idk😭

[sage crag]

rrrrr

[wary rover]

The engine is warming up

[opaque wharf]

Man, this is why I love #programming lol

[wary rover]

@Grokk is that true?

Who tf says chaff?

[maiden geyser]

never google "bonk british"

[wary rover]

Im gonna google "bonk british"

[opaque wharf]

Vedal would probably

[wary rover]

Terrifying

I regret my decision immensely

[opaque wharf]

Pro tips when learning any language, learn the swear and slang first so someone can't pull your leg

SAM MA BOI IS TYPING

[olive sable]

Good afternoon
Last afternoon of school, tomorrow is only the morning

[wary rover]

What if I dig it when someone is pulling my leg? What if it's my cup of tea?

[pastel nymph]

    public static CurrencyAmount operator *(decimal op2, CurrencyAmount op1) =>
    new(op1.amount * op2, op1.currency);
    public static CurrencyAmount operator *(CurrencyAmount op1, decimal op2) =>
    new(op1.amount * op2, op1.currency);

Is there a better way to do this without basically copying?

[opaque wharf]

Is that C++? Templating is de way

[pastel nymph]

C#

[opaque wharf]

Then I don't know

[lapis wraith]

c# can also support templates

[opaque wharf]

Oh yes they do

[wary rover]

K guys, I'll go read boring stuff see you in 5 hours

[opaque wharf]

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/programming-guide/generics/generic-methods

[maiden geyser]

how boring

[scarlet arch]

???

[lapis wraith]

it's asuming because you have "nothing to do" it's a mistake?

[opaque wharf]

You can't have every todo completed. It's impossible

[rough bloom]

you can't commit TODOs?

[opaque wharf]

No, it NEEDS to have TODO

[scarlet arch]

I clicked "review" cause I was curious...

[lapis wraith]

TODO: I completed all tasks

[opaque wharf]

See, it says contains problem: 0 TODO

[scarlet arch]

thank you RustRover. Very cool

[lament igloo]

https://update.botghost.com/
BotGhost got hit with the same ToS violation as Shapes

[lapis wraith]

[dry charm]

I very sort of understand why?

[opaque wharf]

Authentication or Authorization?

[dry charm]

Sharing token is unsafe and it frowned upon I completly agree with that, but the lack of alternative is even more concerning

[dry charm]

Authentication, but bot token

so not the discord user token which allows management of the user account

but bot accounts tokens just weirdly worded

[opaque wharf]

See, the thing is, Authentication alone doesn't imply you have any right to do anything unless the system is designed without proper ACL

[dry charm]

The problem in this case, is that Discord issuing this, cause they require users to create a Bot token for their new bot and share that with them (essentially 3rd party). And that is against TOS of running bots

The token is only used for runtime authentication, the ACL is set in the Bot dashboard (bot owner) and the respective guilds

[uneven pulsar]

bro we are not in twitter

[lament igloo]

everyone should code their own bot after this

but fr tho, discord shutting them down after 7 years is crazy

[opaque wharf]

This is quite a convoluted argument but what's the difference between hosting your bot on say, cloudflare and storing your token there vs botghost

[dry charm]

On cloudflare you input those tokens into env files or env variables, controlled by you

In this case you are filling in a form online, handing over your token to a third party

in cloudflare you still control the value

here it is put into a black box

[dry charm]

It just they got attention to this software which coincidentally breached the TOS

[opaque wharf]

You don't put auth token in an .env, you put it using their web interface. Ideally using secret (the process still treats it as ENV VAR)

It could be automated too

So any 3rd party could make some bot installer ala botghost

[rigid snow]

this statement makes 0 sense

[rough bloom]

with Cloudflare you would still be (somewhat) in control of the token and how it is used
by giving it directly to some hosted not service you are definitely not

[dry charm]

And why is that?

[rough bloom]

I think so
it does mean giving the user your application though (through the installer)

[rigid snow]

explain how is it any less or more "controlled by you" on any hosting service

[dry charm]

You are still running a generic serverless software which has a env var parameters, not a directly parameterised Discord Bot Token field

[rigid snow]

you still hand it off to a third-party

[rough bloom]

I guess you could do a funny and just have the user host a proxy with the bot token

[rigid snow]

killing the ux and the point of the product

[dry charm]

You wrote the software, which are uplaoded and then ran by the third party.
The host does not directly assume you are running a discord bot, but a service and with ENV VARs input into it.

vs

A direct service, directed at running a Discord bot, expecting a fully working discord token into the field

Like

T6oL2RN37EjLxZmCaEL8VeKqgkc88t7p

[lament igloo]

uhmmm sooo
where does bot-hosting.net stand?

[dry charm]

good like telling what this is

but If I were to do this:
Password: bGyc8cdrFWm8Kk3a3y79

Then you are quite ahead

[lament igloo]

like i have control over my code
should be fine right?

[dry charm]

Pterodactyl is in your hands yes

(Pterodacytl panel my beloved)

obviously it is a very thin line between self controlled and hand off style. I think Pterodactyl panel is still withing expected self controlled region, but it is on the very edge due to being specialized to Discord bots in this case

Are the eggs pre determined or do you still upload your own?

[lament igloo]

idk what u mean by eggs but i can upload my own files

[dry charm]

Eggs are the server instances, which dictates what docker container it'll run, setup scripts, parameters that you can define in startup, what commands to execute when pressing buttons

[lament igloo]

i can configure most of them

[dry charm]

You can define your own, or you can just select them?

[rigid snow]

aren't eggs managed by an admin

[dry charm]

They are, but if they are hosting a panel for each user, then they can just do eggs

but I highly doubt they allow that

[uneven pulsar]

i am having server env issues

[dry charm]

so most probably you arel imited to something like this