programming

[tight tinsel]

i didnt go to the actual one (1 hour drive) so i went to a smaller store

[knotty current]

when buying in china, especially electronics, you do need to be knowledgeable in the hardware you are buying

cuz i have seen scams

especially the half price ones

[sage crag]

rule 5 when rule 5

[olive sable]

[tight tinsel]

i had the guy test it before buying it

[knotty current]

i think thats good then

[gritty dust]

My usb feel inadequate, it's small and only 8gb lol, it's my dad's from work

[olive sable]

rust

[sage crag]

wtf

monster

fn main()
{

banned

[rough bloom]

new Rust user detected

[ruby timber]

rust

[olive sable]

why is print called println? why the ln?
also, why do i need to make the function shout with a ! each time?

[ruby timber]

Is the syntax fn main() {

[opaque sigil]

they got him

[stark needle]

sam altman when he does not elaborate and just makes random hype pov

[sage crag]

! means macro invocation, ln means line

[opaque sigil]

because println prints a line

[sage crag]

you can also do print!()

[rough bloom]

println! because it also appends a newline for you
print! is without the newline

[olive sable]

i like them to be on the same level

its nice for showing indentation imo

[sage crag]

your opinion is factually incorrect

[ruby timber]

Based

[olive sable]

well fuck you then

[rough bloom]

the correct opinion is whatever rustfmt does by default
-# (that means konii is right)

[ruby timber]

LMAO

[sage crag]

yes

[ruby timber]

Sadly...

[olive sable]

dont care, mine looks pretty

[knotty current]

at least you dont put the brackets and semicolons to the end of each line

[olive sable]

they're both at the same indentation, it looks nice, it gives me my ocd fix

[knotty current]

it gives me ocd

[opaque sigil]

i think you'd loooove c# then

[rough bloom]

consider this: the function signature also has the same indentation as the closing bracket if you put the opening bracket on the same line

[olive sable]

i will be forced to learn C# in a few months anyways for my bachelor independent game production. so maybe

[ruby timber]

It also does with the bracket on another line, just with a line in between

[rough bloom]

yeah, but then you unnecessarily waste a whole line on a single bracket

[olive sable]

you're saying words in programming language. idk what the fuck a signiture is

[serene briar]

Can someone help me with ai stuff because it's difficult to find actual tutorials or proper documentation

[ruby timber]

Makes it less crowded

[rough bloom]

the fn main() part

[olive sable]

CODE BLUEEEEE GET THE CHAAAAAAAART

[ruby timber]

ALERT

[olive sable]

https://tenor.com/view/blue-alert-ambulance-police-police-siren-gif-5349304553578622346

[opaque sigil]

look into stuff from andrej karpathy, he has some really good tutorials

[ruby timber]

@serene briar

[serene briar]

I have already seen that chart

[serene briar]

Already saw this 10 days ago

[ruby timber]

Where are you in the chart then

[serene briar]

And yes I do qualify

[rough bloom]

vertical screenspace is precious, unnecessary empty lines are bad
I can agree that the closing bracket should have it's own line though, putting that on the same line as the function body is atrocious

[opaque wharf]

Basically the name of the function and the list of the argument/parameter it accepts

[flat sigil]

Script swap removed a problematic script in convai and 0 errors in Unity.

[serene briar]

On the final yes/no, I'm at No

[ruby timber]

To be fair I can agree with the empty lines making the whole things harder to read, so I understand the stance of the opening bracket being with the signature

In any case, my brain is C-rotted, I'll have to comply when I eventually do rust so I'll be able to weight the pros and cons of each approach

[serene briar]

I just want to make a small chatbot, only limitation is my hardware

[flat sigil]

Project Zelda is about to start working

[tender river]

breaking chains is noble work more people should do it

[opaque sigil]

i don't think i've ever seen a c/c++ style guide that puts opening brackets on their own line

[olive sable]

brother use your scroll wheel, you have one for a reason

[rough bloom]

C has some interesting code styles too because they don't have an opinionated standard for it at all

[opaque sigil]

though i'm sure they exist

[rough bloom]

[knotty current]

@olive sable why is there not a yes option for the Are you ready to smash your head against a wall node?

[tender river]

ln because it prints a "\n" at the end

and ! because its a macro

its not a function

[ruby timber]

That's what's really funny, how everywhere I look there's a different style

[opaque wharf]

I'm pretty sure some of those are trolling

[tender river]

also use clippy and rustfmt

[ruby timber]

I kinda like the idea of having a precise style that you "have to" comply with over an entire language

[opaque sigil]

oh right, gnu does this

[ruby timber]

Makes it easier to switch projects imo

[opaque wharf]

Ain't no way someone writing C uses haskell style

[olive sable]

because you shouldnt be making ai but doing javascript then

[rough bloom]

the last 3 seem like memes, yeah

[ruby timber]

Welcome to 42 school I guess

[olive sable]

this mf?????????????????????

[tender river]

https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/languages/rust

@olive sable follow this part

[opaque sigil]

next you'll say return types get their own lines

[rough bloom]

this is one of the few things Go does right
gofmt literally does not have options, there's one standard way of formatting everywhere
this would make Go code really easy to read if it wasn't bad for other reasons

[olive sable]

i dont even know what that is

[opaque sigil]

w_char_t * is the return type of the function

[ruby timber]

That's nice
It can be annoying to begin with but I like that idea of having a standard for a language
That's sort of what we have to do with C at school, so yea

[ruby timber]

Yummy, C-style casts

[tender river]

no really, use rustfmt

and when writing C++ use clang formatter

and when writing python use black

[olive sable]

why?

[ruby timber]

The real answer is "have fun on your own projects, but if your code is going to be read by anyone else, use the rust format"

[olive sable]

i dont care

[opaque sigil]

it gets you accustomed to reading other code since it'll look about 99% the same

[ruby timber]

As long as it's only for you, do your thing

[tender river]

because its nice when every project in the entire ecosystem uses the same formatting rules

[opaque wharf]

This is de way

[ruby timber]

Yeah that too

[tender river]

and because when you break these conventions for no reason your code is actually considered bad for no reason

[ruby timber]

Rust community

[tender river]

any community with widely accepted standards

[ruby timber]

Fair

[olive sable]

if i dont agree witht he rules why woudl i follow them?
they can just leave a negative comamnd on my github i wont read

[opaque wharf]

Chad

[tender river]

because you arent the only person in this universe

you have to work with other people

and for that, standards exist

[ruby timber]

(again, if you're not working with others, do your thing)

(but it's good practice to take up now, if you start working with others and you don't have the good habits down it might come back to bite you)

[tender river]

its best to abide by the standards evne when working alone since it makes you used to doing the right thing

[hoary lion]

early, good morn

[ruby timber]

Hi inabakumori mascot

[tender river]

like i prefer { on the same line but i would never do that in C#

[ruby timber]

True

[hoary lion]

nah im cooked

[rough bloom]

if you really insist on deviating from the standard formatting conventions for no reason then at least configure rustfmt accordingly
that way you'll still have a standard across your own project

[hoary lion]

i always use same line 😭

cause java

😭

[rigid snow]

i just format on save

[opaque sigil]

i do same line and just press format periodically

because there are more important things to worry about than styling

[rigid snow]

i can do the entire method in one line and it’ll fix itself

[olive sable]

i just prefer how this looks. i have made all my code using these brackets like that before too

[tender river]

it doesnt matter what you prefer if the entire ecosystem prefers the opposite

thats just how the real world works

i dont know what to tell you

[rigid snow]

it’s semi common to write shaders as strings

so it’s not even that out of the ordinary

[olive sable]

this isnt about it being a string

[tender river]

if you wrote function names in python with SCREAMING_CASE people would consider your code bad too

[rough bloom]

for C/GLSL this is reasonable because there's no real consensus anyway, so in this case your preferred formatting just happens to be standard enough that it's readable

also no syntax highlighting

[olive sable]

i only use screaming case for constants

[tender river]

and this is the same

[hoary lion]

isn't screaming case just bad in general

[tender river]

its good for constants

[ruby timber]

Are you secretly a C programmer

[opaque wharf]

It has its uses

[hoary lion]

oh yeah, except constants

[tender river]

yes, but if you used it for functions nobody would take you seriously

[hoary lion]

never use it outside of env tho

[olive sable]

i do have syntax highlighting for glsl if it was a seperate file, but this is just a python string

[olive sable]

why so serious?

[rigid snow]

it literally does not matter if you { on a new line or not, people just cry about it because they have nothing better to do

[olive sable]

[ruby timber]

C preprocessor macros

[rigid snow]

it doesn’t make the code any more or less readable

[tender river]

consistent style does make code more readable

[ruby timber]

In the end it's all preference and standards

[olive sable]

i havent touched a single bit of C in my life so uh no?

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, you do your thing sam. When you code gets used by a lot of people I hope that the rust community will have to take you style seriously because I too love chaos

[rough bloom]

not blaming you for this one because GLSL shaders as strings is common, but yeah, no syntax highlighting is super annoying
I'd 100% find a way to embed a GLSL file instead

[olive sable]

oh no it should be quite easy to do that with a simple "filename.open()" i was just too lazy to do that

[rough bloom]

I think GLSL counts as C
the programs are small but the syntax is very similar

[opaque wharf]

I want to say that's like saying TypeScript is JavaScript

[rough bloom]

it is

[ruby timber]

What even is GLSL though

[olive sable]

shadercode

[opaque wharf]

Shader

[ruby timber]

I could look it up but I'm lazy so I'm asking my favorite llm, #programming

[rough bloom]

C but for programs that run on the GPU (shaders)

[ruby timber]

Ooooh

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, I guess fair point

[ruby timber]

So it's not cuda? like something more portable?

[rigid snow]

consistent in a certain context, of course it’s bad if half your methods are \n{\n and the other half is {\n in one project, “across the ecosystem” only matters if there’s a strong expectation that you follow the rules like in rust, i wouldn’t say the expectation is as strong in c# for example

[olive sable]

it seems like C# does put { on a newline?

[rigid snow]

yes

[hoary lion]

yes

[ruby timber]

Yeah but that's another beast entirely

[hoary lion]

i hate it

[ruby timber]

And another standard-

[opaque wharf]

Ohhh, he gonna move to C#

[olive sable]

how about C++?

[ruby timber]

Same as C

Whatever you want

[opaque wharf]

You're free

[olive sable]

and what is C then?

[opaque sigil]

whatever you want or whatever your company wants

[ruby timber]

C++ was originally called C with classes

That sums it up pretty well

[olive sable]

im unemployed

im gonna have to think if i care enough about upholding those "standarts" to use rust

[ruby timber]

You don't have to with that formatter thingie

[opaque sigil]

over time people realised that having to constantly have debates over style guides is fucking stupid so newer languages tend to come with a formatter that takes away the decision-making

[opaque wharf]

Nah, you don't need to

[ruby timber]

Though you'll have to adapt to reading it for sure

[opaque wharf]

If you wanted to work with others however, it is needed for easier collaboration

No matter how fucked the style guide is

Because any style guide is better than none

[olive sable]

this is really activating my autism

[hoary lion]

i love style guides in general tho

there are many disagreement with your own style

but prevents you from getting lost

[ruby timber]

I like them too

[hoary lion]

like, I did not understand what the fuck was DI, but after I understood them, they are genuinely cool

[opaque sigil]

do whatever you want as long as you format it according to the style guide before you send it out

[olive sable]

nah fuck rust their style guide is ass

im going to C++

[hoary lion]

[opaque wharf]

I too like style guide. But I don't care enough to make them. Sam is one of those that care

[rough bloom]

I like them as long as they come with a formatter configuration
I'm not manually formatting my code to look like shit

[opaque wharf]

That's design pattern my dude

[rigid snow]

overly configured eslint screaming at you for doing the most insignificant things to code quality

[hoary lion]

ik

[opaque sigil]

[hoary lion]

but you got the ish ehh

bleh

[opaque wharf]

I love when my prettier fight my eslint. I use biome now

[amber fractal]

I'm under formatters are not touching my code camp. I'm hesitant about using rust purely because of people that choose to be insulted by every little thing.

[opaque wharf]

I do recommends learning to use CMake or Meson along with it. Manually compiling and linking will be less tedious. Or you can stick to the good 'ol makefile/build script

[olive sable]

brother what are all these things i need to do

[amber fractal]

I write my code how I wish, and you're not stopping me.

[olive sable]

at this point im gonna write raw webassembly instead

[opaque wharf]

You see, for rust, you have cargo to manage your used library. For python you have pip. C or C++? Nada

[opaque sigil]

welcome to the world of non-scripting languages

[olive sable]

dont care, i do everything myslef

[rough bloom]

have fun setting up your C++ build system, it's very easy
there's totally no need to learn one or two other programming languages or anything

[olive sable]

nice

[opaque wharf]

That was a very short friendship lol

[olive sable]

it lasted about 5 min

look, i just dont wanne hear shit about the brackets

thats literlay the only deciding factor on which language im using

[rough bloom]

you should use Common Lisp

that'll end the debate

[knotty current]

[opaque wharf]

We're #programming , we'd argue just about anything

[olive sable]

bro wtf is that, that dont even have brackets

[opaque wharf]

That's why there'll be no debate about bracket lol

[hoary lion]

we only use C++ for cuda kernel, no?

[ruby timber]

cmake...................

[hoary lion]

man I HATE cmake

[opaque wharf]

Hey, meson exists now

[olive sable]

im sure vscode has an exstension

[hoary lion]

[ruby timber]

i need to learn that

But school makes us Makefiles, we don't have to use cmake yet

[opaque sigil]

meson is tolerable at least

[ruby timber]

..........

[opaque sigil]

we take those

[ruby timber]

Better than Cmake

[amber fractal]

I'm picking rust due to not dealing with build scripts personally.

[rough bloom]

tried Meson once ages ago, can confirm that it was okay
definitely much better than CMake

[opaque wharf]

But meson being new make not many project uses it. So I still choose CMake for my project needs too

[olive sable]

why does c++ have std's?

[amber fractal]

Every language does

[opaque sigil]

have you seen the "mascot"

[opaque wharf]

C++ have mascot?

[ruby timber]

I don't know of many languages without a standard library

[opaque sigil]

no it doesn't but it's funny to pretend it does

[olive sable]

what the fuck is that

[ruby timber]

Officially it does no?

[opaque wharf]

Also stands for sexually transmitted disease

[rough bloom]

oh, that one

[olive sable]

oh std means standart

[amber fractal]

I've always thought of it as "support the developer"

[ruby timber]

<stdlib.h> just took a terrifying new meaning

[ruby timber]

That's nice

[olive sable]

im not gonna lie, C++ code looks ass

[opaque wharf]

Use <cstdlib> you barbarian

[olive sable]

it may not be anal about the brackets, but no way im gonna do all this shit

[ruby timber]

I do C

[opaque sigil]

it doesn't get much better, you're going to have to get used to it

[ruby timber]

In C++ I'll use <cstdlib>

[rough bloom]

have you seen templates yet

[opaque wharf]

To be fair, you can use C too since they are interchangeable in C++

[olive sable]

does C look shit?

[ruby timber]

At this point just do C

[ruby timber]

No

It's small

[rough bloom]

sometimes, but usually it's much better than C++ at least

[opaque wharf]

If you know GLSL, you'll feel at home with C

[ruby timber]

Yeah

To be honest just use C

Or Zig

[sage crag]

darn

[ruby timber]

Coming back to my first suggestion

[opaque sigil]

use hblang

[ruby timber]

Though C is old as heck and very mature, while Zig is so young

[ruby timber]

IT'S HAPPENING

[opaque wharf]

To this day, I still want know why you guys develop hblang. It does looks neat tho

[rough bloom]

I could see sam being a Zig enjoyer
what does their style guide say about brackets

[opaque sigil]

why not

[ruby timber]

............same line as signature iirc

[opaque sigil]

same line

[opaque wharf]

Noice

[rough bloom]

no Zig then

[amber fractal]

even shorter

[sour harness]

Waiting for the next step to x64 assembly

[opaque wharf]

Sam programming arc descending into lower and lower level language

[opaque sigil]

hey, i'm not complaining about this development

[amber fractal]

[opaque sigil]

what's next, fasm?

[olive sable]

ill eventually just loop back around to rust with with the nice brackets

[nocturne olive]

Whar is happening here, deciding what to rewrite your game engine to?

[olive sable]

yes

[sour harness]

Needle and a steady hand

[rough bloom]

C is okay at least

[olive sable]

NOOOOOOOO

[nocturne olive]

Silly
And how would you compile C to web?

[rough bloom]

all roads lead to Rust (or React web development, depending on the quality of your life choices)

[ruby timber]

If you evolve on the brackets use zig :3 you'll like it

[sage crag]

emscripten

wasm

[opaque wharf]

Nah, you don't have to follow that

[ruby timber]

YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT

[opaque wharf]

C does not enforce shit

[ruby timber]

Rejoice, there's no standard

[opaque sigil]

it's okay C is messy there's no singular style guide

[amber fractal]

[opaque sigil]

(i like to follow llvm's)

[ruby timber]

llvm is based

[olive sable]

honeslty at this point is it even worth it?

[opaque sigil]

yes

anything over python

[sour harness]

Can someone show him lisp, I just want to see his reaction

[olive sable]

why program, if all languages are dogshit?

[opaque wharf]

I said it before, use TypeScript lol

[olive sable]

ass

[ruby timber]

Do your own, hop on the hblang bandwagon

[amber fractal]

I'd rather JavaScript

[olive sable]

lets check out hblang first

[ruby timber]

IT'S HAPPENING

[rough bloom]

they aren't, you just don't have taste
if you think you know what the one true language that is better than all others looks like, make your own

[opaque sigil]

i love adding the entirety of posix for 2 functions

[ruby timber]

I mean, hblang is in zig iirc soooooooooo

[amber fractal]

@sage crag

[nocturne olive]

Reminds me, I may need a JS frontend dev at some point, because I want to rewrite Neuro rants and port it to a new backend

[sage crag]

noway

[olive sable]

lmao its actually there

first link

[sage crag]

hi i made that

i havent updated it for a while

[rough bloom]

small obstacle
hblang AFAIK doesn't compile to wasm

[sage crag]

this is true

[olive sable]

why not

konii please fix

i need that

[ruby timber]

I mean

[sage crag]

no wasm backend

[ruby timber]

Do it yourself

[opaque sigil]

it's okay we can compile to x86 and then to wasm via emscripten

[olive sable]

make one

[sage crag]

has hbvm backend

[olive sable]

what is that?

[rough bloom]

does emscripten to x86 to wasm? I thought it was only C and C++ to wasm

[ruby timber]

The real plan is hiring sam to develop a backend for wasm

[sage crag]

(itcs C(++) to wasm)

[amber fractal]

[opaque wharf]

Why JS specifically? To not have a build step?

[amber fractal]

(anything but react)

[opaque sigil]

can you not just give it some object files

[nocturne olive]

Neuro rants is a website

[opaque sigil]

surely you can right

[olive sable]

i dont know how to wasm

[rigid snow]

because frontend duh

[opaque wharf]

Well, yeah. I mean TypeScript is also capable of making a website. It just takes a build step

[nocturne olive]

Whar?

[rigid snow]

#programming try to not be overly pedantic challenge (impossible)

[olive sable]

konii one smalle question, does hblang use these { }?

[opaque wharf]

Y'all never heard of frontend web framework before? A new one is born every week lol

[rigid snow]

js dev = ts dev

[opaque sigil]

oh you have to produce the object files with emscripten in order to use them sadge

[sage crag]

yesh

[ruby timber]

[rough bloom]

if you mean Emscripten, it basically provides a WebAssembly target for LLVM
I don't think there is an x86 object file frontend for LLVM anywhere
(+ you'd have issues with the standard library)

[opaque wharf]

I was asking why JS specifically and not TS?

[olive sable]

and do they happen to have { start on a nweline?

[amber fractal]

:true:

[opaque sigil]

at this point we're going to end up at scala 3

without brackets

[sour harness]

The amount of languages that do not use brackets for scoping is...really small

[nocturne olive]

I myself suck at frontend and the frontend of Neuro rants is gonna need a rewrite with the backend to work on the new backend along with some much needed new features

[opaque sigil]

(say no konii)

[sage crag]

@olive sable you dont need wasm, just run fakern in the browser

[rigid snow]

hey you can keep a tab on me i do frontend for a living

[olive sable]

ok, but what abouti the brackets?

this is important konii

THE BRACKETYS

AAAAAAA

[amber fractal]

(say no konii)

[sage crag]

yes but you "don't" have to

[opaque wharf]

I suggest use a framework then and not raw-dogging JS

[opaque sigil]

[nocturne olive]

Silly

[opaque wharf]

But modern JS is at least tolerable

[olive sable]

wait, you dont have to use brackets?

[rigid snow]

[sage crag]

main := fn(): uint {
  return 0
}

can also be written as

main := fn(): uint return 0

but not as

main := fn(): uint:
  return 0

or anything like that

[nocturne olive]

I don't really care whatever the final thing ends up being made with as long as I can just throw some files in a folder and it works

[olive sable]

[amber fractal]

Second one is me in python

[sage crag]

brackets arent a big deal

[nocturne olive]

(I say "Silly" to most things I don't have a better response for)

[knotty current]

same

[rough bloom]

but can you put the bracket on a separate line?

[rigid snow]

well surely if they’re looking for a frontend dev they expect them to use a framework right?

[olive sable]

i need the starting bracket to be on a nweline

[amber fractal]

for multiline functions sometimes as well

[sage crag]

formatter will shred you

[olive sable]

this is a must

[sage crag]

but yes

[ruby timber]

@olive sable reminder that you can do whatever you want in C(++)

[olive sable]

but C++ is ugly

[opaque sigil]

okay hear me out

[opaque wharf]

You'll be surprised at someone writing raw HTML + JS + CSS

[ruby timber]

Then use C

[knotty current]

not suprised, i once wrote a 1k character one liner that does what a 40 line function does

[opaque sigil]

@main def hello() = println("Hello, World!")

[rigid snow]

the is more about me being a frontend dev than a direct reply ur all good

[olive sable]

what is that?

[nocturne olive]

Very silly

[opaque sigil]

scala

[amber fractal]

I just like using semicolons in python sometimes

[olive sable]

wtf is a scala?

[sage crag]

hblang isnt

[rigid snow]

oh my god i hate scala so much

[opaque sigil]

it's a better java

[olive sable]

send pic

[opaque wharf]

Hear me out, you write C-style C++ instead

[nocturne olive]

I'm certainly not against it, as long as it works

[sage crag]

its so over

[olive sable]

you can do C++ without the std's?

[ruby timber]

.........no

I mean

yeah no

[opaque sigil]

yes

[opaque wharf]

YES

[ruby timber]

TECHNICALLY YES

But who does that

[olive sable]

of the language

[opaque sigil]

[opaque sigil]

me, i do that sometimes

[ruby timber]

[rough bloom]

C++ is basically an extension of C
so you can write C++ but only use the features available in C

[olive sable]

what does that mean?

[ruby timber]

that you can build absolutely everything from scratch and have a working window for your game engine in 2000 years

[opaque wharf]

You can do C++ like this

#include <stdio.h>

void main()
{
  printf("Fucked up but it is C++\n");
}

[amber fractal]

std contains everything that is c++ pretty much IIRC

[olive sable]

hmmmmmmmm

idk

[opaque sigil]

you can treat c++ as c with a better compiler if you want

[olive sable]

i cant do this. the { needs to be on a newline or i cant use it. otherwise i would still be friends with rust

[rigid snow]

python dev doesn’t want a standard library ts makes no sense 💔

[sage crag]

brain is over

[rough bloom]

is it fine if they're on different lines as long as it's not brackets?

[olive sable]

eh wtf

[opaque wharf]

This will fail in C

struct Data
{
  int a;
};

void main()
{
  Data var;
}

But that is valid C++ IIRC

[olive sable]

its so over

[rigid snow]

you can do whatever the fuck you want in any language you want don’t listen to anyone

[opaque wharf]

Hence my suggestion, write C in C++

[olive sable]

but thwn why even write c++ if its C?

[opaque sigil]

it's not

[olive sable]

then ill just do C

[opaque sigil]

unless you meant to use Data

[opaque wharf]

I mean it will compile. You don't have to use ty[edef

[rough bloom]

try C
no need for C++

[opaque wharf]

Oh right lol

[opaque sigil]

i lied, main also needs to return int

[sour harness]

You could also just use rust but never use cargo fmt

[rough bloom]

build system is a pain and the language is old but other than that it's okay
(and most importantly, you can put the brackets on a separate line)

[olive sable]

NOOOOOOO i got an ad, fuck youtube

[ruby timber]

Is C++ build system better? isn't it basically the same?

[opaque wharf]

Sorry, embedded habit. I don't care when main return because at that point I'm fucked lol

[olive sable]

unusable

[rough bloom]

it's the same, yes
this wasn't a comparison to C++, just a general statement

[ruby timber]

And by "it" I mean CMake/Makefiles

Ah

[opaque sigil]

i was gonna say weird that clang accepts it too but then i remembered when it's in a .cpp it just treats it like cpp

[olive sable]

guys i think i might be losing my sanity

[rigid snow]

depends on the scope of the project, for small-ish ones it's fine to not use a framework, for large ones not using one will result in an atrocious unmaintainable nightmare of a codebase

[ruby timber]

you guys genuinely make me want to learn everything

[opaque sigil]

do it

[opaque wharf]

Dew it. Come to mechatronics

[deep badge]

me too

[opaque wharf]

And learn true P A I N

[rigid snow]

and by "it", haha, well. let's justr say. My makefiles

[knotty current]

same here

[rough bloom]

you're realizing that the majority of the world (everyone other than C developers) does not conform to your bracketing style preferences that you acquired from using a language without brackets?

[rough bloom]

do it

[knotty current]

tho i wont learn java nor c#, screw runtimes

[opaque sigil]

c# you mean

[ruby timber]

That's the plan

Already got C under my belt, now it's C++

[rough bloom]

sorry I forget about the Microsoft language sometimes

[ruby timber]

And raytracing stuff

Why must everything be interesting

[olive sable]

the rest of the world can go ~ themselves if they have a problem with it

[opaque sigil]

i have bad news, every executable that links with libc (aka nearly all of them) uses a runtime

[rough bloom]

staying unemployed forever

[deep badge]

i'm still on python 😭 🙏

[olive sable]

im doing gamedev, that was already anticipated

[ruby timber]

You got this!

[deep badge]

thanks man -heart-

[rough bloom]

right, I forgot that gamedev code standards are different from normal peoples (they don't exist)

[ruby timber]

Abandoned Archive slander

[amber fractal]

Yandere Simulator Slander
(What style guide?)

[olive sable]

does firefox have gmail?

[rough bloom]

Copilot didn't exist yet when it was first created
not sure if that makes the situation better or worse

[rough bloom]

it's a website???

[olive sable]

ye but google has one of those buttons on the hompage

does firefox have that?

[hoary lion]

[nocturne olive]

I don't know if Neuro rants can be classified as large in its current scale, but I do want to add some new features and make the server able to host more than a single website with a configurable main page

[hoary lion]

my 1 to 1 pytorch to jax migration is behaving very weird

[opaque sigil]

you mean this button?

[ruby timber]

Maybe a bit of both

[hoary lion]

[olive sable]

yes

[opaque sigil]

then yes, as it's still a website

[ruby timber]

It's not part of your browser-

[tender river]

you were asking why its such a big deal but you're the one making it a big deal ngl

[olive sable]

why do i not have it then?

[opaque sigil]

your pc might be haunted i'm sorry

[olive sable]

true, but stop making good arguments

[ruby timber]

Are you using google as the search engine?

[olive sable]

idk

[ruby timber]

Go on google.com and you'll see it

[rough bloom]

malware that removes all Google products from your machine

[ruby timber]

I'm using zen (basically firefox) and I have it

[opaque wharf]

That's a win in my book besides maybe youtube

[amber fractal]

Very good malware

[olive sable]

ye but google.com isnt the homepage of ffirefox

[ruby timber]

ublock

[ruby timber]

you can change that

[olive sable]

oh whatewver

[ruby timber]

Go have fun with the settings

[olive sable]

i found ow to do it for the hompage, but i cant for a new page?

[rigid snow]

took a glance at the website. it already uses react, it's fine

[ruby timber]

overwatch?? also I'm positive you can customize the new tab page

[olive sable]

?

[rigid snow]

why is encoding vp9 webm so resource intensive

[opaque wharf]

I'm VERY tempted to suggest changing the framework lol. But that's just my personal opinion

[opaque wharf]

AMD?

[rigid snow]

no harware acceleration apple silicon

[opaque wharf]

Try to use free hosting for static site if you communicate to the backend via api anyway. Like cloudflare pages

[opaque wharf]

Ahh, then no idea

[rough bloom]

IIRC you need an addon to fully replace it
but you should be able to add a Gmail shortcut on the default one
by default it shows the most visited sites or something

[rigid snow]

to be clear no hw acceleration because i chose to do it without it, ffmpeg or something will almost definitely be a LOT faster, i'm just rawdogging libraries and encoding 3s of 512x512@15fps takes like 1-2 min???

[opaque wharf]

What the actual f

[opaque sigil]

now i'm curious how long a single threaded av1 encode is going to take

[rigid snow]

also single threaded ye

[opaque wharf]

That is cursed af

[olive sable]

lets hope C is the last one

[amber fractal]

[opaque wharf]

I'm still suggesting writing C in C++ lol

[olive sable]

nah

[rough bloom]

[opaque wharf]

Annoying ass typedef

[olive sable]

dont care

C my beloved

[opaque sigil]

you should try odin

[olive sable]

i like how i started with python, so i just went down a single level

[rough bloom]

same-line brackets, literally unusable

[olive sable]

true

[opaque sigil]

damn, nvm i guess

[opaque wharf]

You know the brackets....

[opaque sigil]

[olive sable]

unusablr

[knotty current]

also @olive sable be sure to install Ublock Origin

[olive sable]

i did

first thing i did

[nocturne olive]

I like self-hosting my stuff
And it's not a static page I think, and even less what I want for the new version

[knotty current]

welcome to the no yt ad world, enjoy your stay

[olive sable]

glad firefox has it, chrome revomed it fromt heir platform

[rough bloom]

MV3

[nocturne olive]

Well, it's gonna need a rewrite to work with the new backend with added new features

[opaque wharf]

Fair

About static site, what I mean is that the site itself is not generated from the backend

[rigid snow]

surely it's manageable to just add those features

[amber fractal]

My brain went on the typo

[olive sable]

[tender river]

haskell doesnt have curly brackets, just saying

[nocturne olive]

Well, it very much uses changing data that is on the backend to draw its contents

[rigid snow]

it already is

[nocturne olive]

Well, I didn't write the current site and its dev disappeared, so

[olive sable]

haskell is ugly tho

[nocturne olive]

And the new backend is gonna work very differently too

[noble zodiac]

know what doesnt have curly brackets? lisp

[opaque wharf]

Ahh, then it IS a static site HTML

[olive sable]

we already went over this one

[tender river]

"this is ugly" person who has never been exposed to a single line of code in that language in their life

[olive sable]

yes

indeed

that is me

[tender river]

if you want something beautiful, try apl

[rigid snow]

as i said, keep a tab on me, i'm very comfortable with react

[noble zodiac]

haskell is very elegant

[olive sable]

brother this looks like TI basic

[amber fractal]

Symbols mhm

[opaque wharf]

I'm more of a vue guy myself lol

[ruby timber]

There's one route we haven't gone down yet

[rough bloom]

why are you insulting TI Basic like this

[ruby timber]

HolyC

[tender river]

apl code is art

[olive sable]

i actually started progreamming on TI basic

[nocturne olive]

Noted
I guess I'll try to remember that for when I have time to do the rewrite

[opaque wharf]

BQN

[olive sable]

protected me from C

[amber fractal]

if I understood it maybe, until then I can't see the vision

[tender river]

you're telling me this is not art? #programming message

[olive sable]

thats egyptian

[opaque wharf]

Youtube channel code_report cover a lot of that programming language type. Its called concatenative IIRC or Array?

[olive sable]

the pyramids of giza werent built, they had advanced programming technology

[amber fractal]

I know it is switching between operators and single letter vars with backets and whitespace, but that is where my understanding ends

[amber fractal]

Do you have a template for this?

[olive sable]

its just a website

[amber fractal]

Ah

[olive sable]

this tutorial is litteraly unwatchable

[tender river]

at this point i think the brackets have caused critical damage to your brain

your only way towards salvation is lisp

[noble zodiac]

thats what I've been saying

[olive sable]

wdym, it already was criticly damaged

you know i was doing pytohn before right?

[rigid snow]

x86 asm then?

[rough bloom]

there's a Common Lisp game engine and the language probably runs in the browser somehow, so it's not even that unrealistic

[olive sable]

it seems like all the C tutorials use the bad way to do brackets

[opaque wharf]

Using only mov challenge

[tender river]

thats what i'm saying you need lisp

leave all your mortal attachments behind

[olive sable]

why are the functions in brackets themselves?

[noble zodiac]

because data is code and code is data

[opaque wharf]

I wonder what kind of glass. Borosilicate?

[olive sable]

im beginning to think my code is not meant for the mortal realm

[rigid snow]

this is the most stupid reason for dismissing langs i've ever seen icl

[tender river]

thats precisely why you must use lisp

i don't recommend it often but i really think you need it

[olive sable]

i mean, yes it is. but if i dont like to look at it how must i program it?

[noble zodiac]

if you really think about it lisp is for making DSL and then you can make it look however you please

[tender river]

this is so stupid "i never saw this so im not used to it so i hate it"

[olive sable]

yes

[tender river]

branch out a little

[olive sable]

no

[tender river]

you are being stuck up like a geezer

[olive sable]

yep

that is true

[tender river]

its good that you understand it

[opaque wharf]

He is set for life

[tender river]

now go use lisp

[olive sable]

im going back to python

[nocturne olive]

Time successfully wasted

[olive sable]

no wait the whjole point of this was to make it faster

uhhhh

[warped narwhal]

section .data
hello: db "Hello, World!", 0x0A, 0x00
.end:

section .text
global _start

_start:
    mov rax, 1
    mov rdi, 1
    mov rsi, hello
    mov rdx, hello.end - hello
    syscall

    mov rax, 0x3c
    xor rdi, rdi
    syscall

ah yes, my favourite programming language

[rough bloom]

I should learn Haskell

maybe today

[opaque sigil]

i'm telling you, scala 3 is the move

it's basically jvm python

[rigid snow]

jvm

[opaque sigil]

jokes aside if there's one thing the jvm is good at it's number crunching tbf

[amber fractal]

I already have things I'm supposed to be doing today, so I can't learn (or find anything for) hblang

[olive sable]

i might sound crazy for saying this, but there arent enough brackets and semicolons

[rigid snow]

that is true

[noble zodiac]

might

[opaque wharf]

NodeJs is JVM

[rigid snow]

what the hell do you want then

[sage crag]

[opaque wharf]

JavaScript VM

[olive sable]

idk bro, i have lost the plot

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/jeong43va-gif-26093523

[amber fractal]

I'll add semicolons and brackets to your python script

[nocturne olive]

Just grab Rust, configure the style options and be happy with that

[chilly frigate]

just as a thought, after i watched the dev stream, i listened to neuros song on spotify, and i thought she sounded the most "human" when she sings, is there a reason why vedal cant somehow use the data from that? (i dont know much about programming so forgive me if this is stupid)

[olive sable]

dont bother, the python is too slow

[opaque wharf]

Yeah do this sam. This is truly the easiest way tbh

[noble zodiac]

semicolons are comments in lisp. So you can just add them at the end of each line to feel comfy. win-win

[nocturne olive]

Tuning a vocal synthesizer for speech is a pain and takes a long time

[sour harness]

The singing is most likely completely different technology from the usual TTS, so no go

[sage crag]

make a preprocessor for rust

fn main():
  ...

[opaque wharf]

Going C++ or C is a pain if you are used to having package manager

[nocturne olive]

Yeah, singing models work completely differently from TTS ones
I would know, I do a lot of training of vocal synthesizer models

[chilly frigate]

oh ok sry it was just a random thought i had so i wanted to ask

[opaque sigil]

wdym, vcpkg fixes this

[amber fractal]

Just another standard

[opaque wharf]

* Several people are typing

[olive sable]

when C# starts to look liek an okay language you need to take a break. brb

[sour harness]

I'm still mildly curious how the singing is done. Maybe a custom Synthesizer V voice or something.

[noble zodiac]

tbf, you still get package management but its in the form of distro lib packages

[amber fractal]

I rember it being overlayed on a human singer IIRC

[nocturne olive]

Probably not SynthV, but could be an open-source SVS arch

[rough bloom]

new idea
preprocessor that lets you include files that don't actually exist (it generates them with an LLM)

[rigid snow]

let result = :
  ...
;
```?????

[nocturne olive]

More likely just referencing the human singer using automatic pitch transcription tools along with automatic phoneme transcription

[rigid snow]

this is meant to be a block expr btw

[tender river]

unironically go branch out and learn the weirdest language you can find my final message goodbye

[sage crag]

let result = \
  if a: b \
  else: c
println!("{result}")

just like python

[amber fractal]

me when dealing with python being stupid

[rigid snow]

no thanks

[tender river]

it kinda exists in rust

[sage crag]

proc macro

proc macro that queries chatgpt for the correct tokens

[sour harness]

There's this thing but I haven't tried it yet. https://www.weights.com/replay
Commercially there is this https://acestudio.ai/ which does support voice cloning.

[tender river]

https://github.com/retrage/gpt-macro

[sage crag]

i was kidding

[rough bloom]

yeah, the proc macro thing
would just be funnier to have in the actual language
like DreamBerd does

[nocturne olive]

I believe those suck and nobody should use them
I achieve much better results with home-trained models than stuff like weights can

[amber fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl1bHdlArhw
Been a bit, but I at least found this

[nocturne olive]

Vedal almost certainly trained Neuro's vocal model using locally running (or cloud compute) tools

[rigid snow]

has someone actually written an interpreter or how is it an "actual language" now

[rough bloom]

I just mean that a proc macro isn't actually part of the Rust language itself

[nocturne olive]

I know what that is, and I already analyzed it, it's not a voice changer, too many differences with Neuro's voice
It's almost definitely a vocal synthesizer referencing the human sung version

[rigid snow]

oh i get it

[rough bloom]

I want to be able to use a struct that just doesn't exist in a local file

[amber fractal]

Should have expected you to already looked through it

[nocturne olive]

Yeah, there was a whole argument about it elsewhere, so I looked trough it and found enough evidence to confidently say LIFE is not using a voice changer -based solution

[sage crag]

peak code

use imagine::imagine;

#[imagine]
struct CoolStruct;

fn main() {
  let x = CoolStruct::new(101);
  x.pontificate()
}

i love my amduw23g-416003-55c70b53 driver

[topaz tendon]

Why is Edge doing that Like every month or so it'll just log me out of all websites unprompted

[rigid snow]

edge

[sage crag]

edge

[olive sable]

code

[sage crag]

semicolon

missing

[opaque wharf]

Come to linux, we have amdgpu

[topaz tendon]

I see this once more and I'm switching fr

[sage crag]

forgot return 0;

[nocturne olive]

Delete Edge, embrace Firefox

[olive sable]

where?

[topaz tendon]

Always had an issue or two with Firefox, tried switching to it multiple times

Also Google messing with Youtube and non-Chromium browsers doesn't help

[dry charm]

https://www.guidingtech.com/how-to-set-microsoft-edge-to-automatically-clear-browser-cookies/
I advise switching to Firefox, but if you want to stay with edge, turn off this

[sage crag]

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
  printf("EEEEEE");
  return 0;
}

[nocturne olive]

It's the only usable browser (Chromium is dropping MV2 so UBlock won't work)

[dry charm]

Youtube works fine on Firefox

[olive sable]

havent gotten to that part of the tutorial yet lol

[rigid snow]

i wonder where

[faint sandal]

Whar i've been using firefox for youtube for ages

[opaque wharf]

BRUH

[sage crag]

ur so right

[topaz tendon]

I don't have any of those on. It doesn't happen with every browser close, it's just like every month or so

[opaque wharf]

I almost smack you for that semicolon lol

[olive sable]

even with ; its underlined red. and the tutorial didnt have it

[rough bloom]

true, Firefox is better
it won't even let you sign in sometimes
(not because of Firefox, but because Twitch does stupid things)

[sage crag]

semicolon not the problem

i just forget c is inconsistent

[olive sable]

nah i dont wanne do this no more

[rigid snow]

i was joking

i don't actually know why it's underlining

[opaque wharf]

Hover over the underline

[amber fractal]

Return to bwaathon

[opaque wharf]

It'll tell you what its probably asking for

"Probably" because C and C++ LSP are liars

[olive sable]

ill be back someday

[gritty dust]

Lolll I had that same problem haha

[amber fractal]

Wait a minute

[gritty dust]

[amber fractal]

[tender river]

@olive sable wait another idea for you prolog doesnt have curly braces

[sour harness]

I think COBOL doesn't either?

Also, all the Basic variants

[tender river]

nobody cares about cobol

[sage crag]

43% of banking systems

[tender river]

i will blow them up

[sage crag]

that is illegal

[tender river]

on the second thought mods no i wont be doing that

[topaz tendon]

Funny you say that while I'm watching a Payday 2 video

[sage crag]

bf doesnt either

[tender river]

true! but it doesnt have native ffi

so its not a good fit

[sage crag]

lua

[rigid snow]

lua is

[tender river]

oh yeah theres also forth

[sage crag]

lisp

[tender river]

i already suggested it

[sage crag]

no the other one

[rigid snow]

like 4 times

[tender river]

ok which of the 15 billion do you mean

[sage crag]

the other one

[tender river]

right

[sage crag]

possibly

[tender river]

i wonder how many lisp implementations there are per lisp programmer

i'd wager 10 or 15

[sage crag]

average of 10 seems conservative

[rigid snow]

you can't divide by zero i'm afraid

[tender river]

thats true, how about we include all people who wrote a single line of lisp in their lifes as lisp programmers

then 10 seems accurate

[sage crag]

everyone writes a lisp but no one writes in lisp

[opaque wharf]

I'm in regex hell. Plz send help

[sage crag]

dichotomy

[tender river]

https://regex101.com/

[opaque wharf]

I prefer https://regexr.com/ tbh

[tender river]

whatever works

[opaque wharf]

Yep. I do need help tho as I am not a regex expert. Here is my current regex

/-.+(\(.+\))+$/g

I want to get the (.+) that is always at the end of the string and after -, but it can be one or many of (.+)

[sage crag]

antidote

[tender river]

[opaque wharf]

And the (.+) group is separated by space

[tender river]

okay so this is currently -, then 1+ characters, then capture group with brackets with arbitrary amount of characters repeating arbitrary amount of times (1+), then end of line?

and you want only the last thing in brackets to be captured?

[opaque wharf]

Yep

[opaque wharf]

No, I want to capture individual bracket

After the -

[tender river]

then the following will probably work

-.+\)(\(.+\))$

[opaque wharf]

Its still only capturing the last bracket

[tender river]

what do you want then?

[opaque wharf]

All the bracket after -

[tender river]

i see

then just move the capture group brackets to include the +

/-.+(\(.+\)+)$/g

[opaque wharf]

Oh, yeah I didn't think of that. Thanks

[tender river]

wait right that wont work

you will have to create a second inner group

but mark it with no capture

[opaque wharf]

It doesn't indeed

[tender river]

/-.+((:?\(.+\))+)$/g

[opaque wharf]

I was hoping to get (Neuro V3) and (Evil)

[tender river]

so you want multiple capture groups?

or you want them all in the same capture group?

[opaque wharf]

Either is fine. I will further process it anyway

[tender river]

just use this .+-[^(]*(\(.*\))$

[opaque wharf]

Perfect. Thanks a lot

[tender river]

can be improved but really just try to remember that * or + or ? applies to the single thing before it, capture group ((......)) is a single thing, no-capture group ((:?.......)) is a single thing, you can specify multiple characters with [abcd] (again, single thing), or exclude characters with [^abcd] (single thing).

regex tries to match as many characters as possible before moving on to the next part of the pattern

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, I always forgot because I rarely use them

[tender river]

so parentheses are included into "any character" even if you want to match a paren after that

[opaque wharf]

And then there's the legendary stackoverflow parsing HTML with regex level

[sour harness]

Which reads kind of like a neuro rant nowadays

[opaque wharf]

backslash backslash backslash backslash backslash ad infinitum

[noble zodiac]

Why do dmarc report emails look like super cheap malware mails

[opaque wharf]

Realistically its aimed at domain administrator. You think they'd care about flashy design? Maybe they even prefer it simple that way

[noble zodiac]

that was a rhetorical question. It's just funny that they look exactly like one of those: "hey, this is totally google security. Someone logged in to your account, please see the attached zip file"

[bright scaffold]

I tried to install steam os... but this is not working

And i install clear arch with this rn https://github.com/HyDE-Project/HyDE

What do u think about it?

[dry charm]

Do you need a gaming OS or a development OS?

Also this looks fine?

[bright scaffold]

I need an OS

Gaming and smol development

[rough bloom]

installation script user
just follow the guide

[delicate glacier]

aaaaaaa

[bright scaffold]

No-no, ik how to install it without script

But thx

I install it not the first time

[dry charm]

also pretty sure steamos is not installable right now?

the closest is nobara I think

[rough bloom]

:Saved:
-# I still lack the emote

[bright scaffold]

It needs nvme

But i havent nvme

[opaque wharf]

Use Garuda

It is arch but easy

to install

[bright scaffold]

Garuda is a very heavy

[dry charm]

According to the Getting Started, you can use anything https://github.com/ValveSoftware/SteamOS/wiki/Getting-Started

[uneven pulsar]

how is discord search so bad

[bright scaffold]

... ik how to install arch without scripta

[opaque wharf]

How light do we need?

[bright scaffold]

And already installed it

[noble zodiac]

hot take: arch derivative are pointless

[tender river]

wouldnt endeavouros be better

[uneven pulsar]

i search drive.google.com, get youtube hits.
i search drive.google, still only get youtube links

[tender river]

steamos does have a reason to exist

[opaque wharf]

I don't know. I didn't see how it differs from garuda. Basically fancy installer for arch

[noble zodiac]

fair, I will give steamos a pass

[bright scaffold]

I use this instruction because i think this is better than official guide https://gist.github.com/mjkstra/96ce7a5689d753e7a6bdd92cdc169bae#preliminary-steps

[rough bloom]

that isn't even an Arch derivative, it's just a bunch of dotfiles

if you mean actual Arch derivatives, yeah, half of them suck
there are only a few (like SteamOS) that have a real purpose

[opaque wharf]

The biggest hurdle of arch is just the installation part. After that, its just like any other linux

[bright scaffold]

silly tsurai

Steam OS based at Arch

[opaque sigil]

archinstall and be done with it in 2 minutes

[bright scaffold]

And it gets more fps than wiwdows

[opaque wharf]

God no. We have gone through this already. Archinstall is bug ridden

[tender river]

i wish it worked well

[rough bloom]

looks nice, it's very linear
the official guide is kinda all over the place

[opaque wharf]

What was that again? The toggle for installed DE doesn't actually install the actual DE? Imagine choosing GNOME on the install script and ended up with KDE

[noble zodiac]

imagine chosing either of those trainwrecks

[opaque wharf]

Apparently the trainwreck that is KDE Plasma 5 is working for SteamOS

[bright scaffold]

Idk i never used archinstall

oh, Im lying

only one time

[rough bloom]

speaking of Gnome
Ubuntu is getting rid of the Xorg option in the display manager in 25.10

[bright scaffold]

And it was more complicated and unclear than manually (I couldnt install with it)

[opaque wharf]

I like the wiki since I like reading anyway. In the process I learn a lot about the installation process and how my setup came to be

[stark needle]

https://futurism.com/chatgpt-mental-health-crises

????

❓

[rough bloom]

that's one of the best parts about Arch
you end up knowing your system very well

[tender river]

yeah theres been stuff like that all over the news

[opaque wharf]

Imagine if people like that encounter neuro-sama

[tender river]

unfortunately some people have 0 critical thinking and collapse when met with hallucinations

[noble zodiac]

how dare you talk to mama like that

thats the beautiful thing about an arch installation, that it isn't linear. So many choices you can make

[opaque wharf]

Sooo, Ubuntu just ditched sudo for sudo-rs

[warped narwhal]

whats the difference between them? other than the language

[uneven pulsar]

schizo people do schizo things with an AI

istg news reporting just has to go
i'd rather know nothing about what's going on in the world if it meant the end of journalism

[opaque sigil]

They got rid of some options nobody used

[hoary lion]

we love ai delulu

[opaque wharf]

Hopefully none

[warped narwhal]

I hope it's not a "rewrite in rust for the sake of rewriting in rust"

[opaque wharf]

No, sudo is a very valid one

So I really hope there is no unexpected difference between the two

[rough bloom]

they replaced coreutils too

[opaque sigil]

As I said, they removed some options nobody used

[opaque wharf]

Wait they already replace coreutils to rust in ubuntu? I though the project isn't ready yet?

[opaque sigil]

Because the original sudo is a 180k loc monstrosity

[rough bloom]

I misspoke
they are replacing coreutils with the Rust implementation in the next release, but have already made the decision

[opaque wharf]

Yes, so hopefully no difference in functionality if nobody uses them right? ...right?

[rough bloom]

so yes, not shipped yet

[opaque wharf]

I see. Because I know the effort to replace coreutils. But I don't see it as valid as sudo, or SSL library

[opaque sigil]

Ideally yeah, and the couple of people that did use those features can just manually compile the old one

I like uutils since it's cross platform

can use on windows

[rough bloom]

I think the effort to replace them is good, mostly because of memory safety and how prevalent and important they are, but I don't know if the Rust coreutils are really ready in other aspects like compatibility yet
Canonical seems to think so at least

though for Ubuntu they'll be in a non-LTS version first, so if it breaks they can just go back

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, my problem with rewriting coreutils is just that it poses no bigger of a risk than running any other program. Sudo however is one big risk. Like sure, maybe bug in coreutils will allow Remote Code Execution. But the permission that the code have will probably not more than the user running it. I said probably because I don't know if there exists a privilege escalation bug from coreutils

[noble zodiac]

I have mixed feelings about the effort

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, no privilege escalation

[rough bloom]

yeah, the issue would mostly be that they're expected to be able to handle user input
so it wouldn't be privilege escalation if you already have a shell, but the risk would be RCE through some stupid PHP script that uses coreutils or something like that

you're right though that the risk with the coreutils is a lot lower than with sudo

[noble zodiac]

The coreutils are old pieces of code, some closing in on 40 years. They stood the test of time and we still use them which speaks for how well designed thought through they were

I have no clue who has the authority over the rust coreutils is or how competent they are. Just because its rust doesnt mean that bugs cant exist

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, I mean just look at
https://github.com/Speykious/cve-rs

But for some big project that has critical role like sudo, I do trust it more in rust even if its a little newer

[rough bloom]

the main issue wouldn't even be memory management bugs, it would be logic bugs

if they really want to maintain compatibility then that requires a lot of testing

[opaque sigil]

tbf you can just yoink all the tests from the original coreutils and then start from there

[tender river]

its not a bad project but i hate rust devs' love for mit/apache

[sour harness]

Also we might get cross-platform for free. I'd like coreutils on Windows that are not cygwin

[tender river]

well, ultimately, its just busybox 2.0

[opaque sigil]

You can already use it on windows

[sour harness]

Really? I never checked...

[opaque sigil]

It's available via scoop too

[sour harness]

Well, I guess I could just have tried a cargo install

[opaque sigil]

That too

[noble zodiac]

iono, I have a softspot for the old pieces of code

maybe thats just me being old and depressed

[tender river]

ok but have you seen the gnu style guide

theyre begging for someone to replace it

[noble zodiac]

eh, let the gnu ppl do what they want among eachother. I never really cared too much about their ... particularities

[sour harness]

So...will it be Rust/Linux now instead of GNU/Linux, the most annoying ackshually nitpick ever?

[noble zodiac]

I have yet to actually meet a person who seriously argued about that in real life

no one gives a shit

[rough bloom]

the Rust community will celebrate this for the next 10 years at minimum

[noble zodiac]

I yearn for simpler times when programs did a single thing well and thats it

[opaque wharf]

Sam

[opaque sigil]

coreutils in python let's gooooooo

[noble zodiac]

like maybe some day someone will write a terminal emulator thats both functional and not bloated out of the arse

[sour harness]

Then you have to go back really far because X11 had a print server.

[noble zodiac]

print is an external display that makes sense

[rough bloom]

is Suckless or XTerm not debloated enough

(or foot if you're on Wayland)

[noble zodiac]

st is just a single tiny step too far. There are patches that makes it usable but they break with every single update and have to be edited by hand each time

[tender river]

i dont care if its a bunch of small utilities or a monolith just give me software that doesnt require maintenance every 2 weeks

i have enough changes to go through when refactoring my broken code i dont want to also deal with your broken code being refactored

[opaque wharf]

What kind of software are you guys using?

[tender river]

this is just the stuff i have to maintain build scripts or patches for

[opaque sigil]

nix moment

[noble zodiac]

Also, have you seen the README of xterm?

        Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here

This is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution. It was one of the first "serious" programs ported, and still has a lot of historical baggage. Ideally, there would be a general tty widget and then vt102 and tek4014 subwidgets so that they could be used in other programs. We are trying to clean things up as we go, but there is still a lot of work to do.

[tender river]

i dont patch it because of nix

i patch it to make it work

[opaque sigil]

[rough bloom]

I have not

We are trying to clean things up as we go
well that certainly failed then

[noble zodiac]

it even has a second warning in main.c

/*
 *                 W A R N I N G
 *
 * If you think you know what all of this code is doing, you are
 * probably very mistaken.  There be serious and nasty dragons here.

xterm carries around code for 50 year old modem terminals and what not

[rough bloom]

yeah, I think the fact that it's an actual emulator is mostly to blame here

terminal emulators in general could probably be nicer if they didn't all have to support the same 3 ancient terminals

[noble zodiac]

I've started writing my own but the time... the time...

would be nice tho. I'm already using my own WM and statusbar. Bit by bit

[opaque wharf]

Why use terminal emulator at all. Just raw dog the linux terminal at that point

[tender river]

theres no non-emulated terminals

[opaque wharf]

I mean, yeah

[rough bloom]

there are, but chances are you're not using one

[tender river]

you could say that

[opaque wharf]

Is using uart to control embedded linux system count as terminal? Because chay have done that no?

[noble zodiac]

no it doesnt

[tender river]

is it embedded if its a proper sbc

(or an ereader)