programming

[rigid snow]

i mean that’s just added development complexity with zero reason to exist

just run a web server on the microcontroller at that point and hook up the discord bot to it

or the other way

[opaque wharf]

Hmmm, to me web server is more complex that just interacting with API. But that's just me

[sage crag]

:ReallyGunPull:

[rigid snow]

how is exposing the functionality as an api using an off the shelf lib, then consuming said api in python or something in any way you want (generate image diagrams, integrate something other than discord, etc.) more complex than building the world yourself on the microcontroller with countless limitations

[gritty dust]

[sage crag]

oh btw comptime args for values that fit into 1 abi register now work

[tender river]

saw that

[sage crag]

a := fn($c: uint): type {
  $if c == 2 return uint
  return int
}

you can do abominable things with it though

[opaque wharf]

What? If you mean exposing API as a web server itself using off the shelf lib then sure, it is easy. POST /gpio/2 will do something. Now, how are discord going to find the MCU and make the API call?

[sage crag]

x: a(1) = 1
y: a(2) = 2
// nope!
z := x + y

[tender river]

nothing you couldnt already do with $c: type and struct { Value := 5 }

probably

[sage crag]

this is true

manually implement beta reduction

[tender river]

real

[sage crag]

me when

BetaReduce := fn($N: type): type {
  $if @TypeOf(N) == @TypeOf(...)
  ...
}

every case

[tender river]

also i think the struct { X := Whatever.X } approach is useful in general for compacting complex type hierarchies

[rigid snow]

tl;dr host the bot elsewhere

if you’re trying to hook it up to discord in the first place, then you should have networking set up on the microcontroller. then, when you host the server, it gets an ip address, which can be accessed using a http client and you can make requests

[tender river]

probably

[sage crag]

it is, but it's also cheating since you introduce actual data

[tender river]

no i meant like what i did with iseven

[opaque wharf]

OR the MCU connect to an existing network via Wi-Fi/dial-up and you got a bot working?

[sage crag]

.(3) is less fun than .(.(), .(.(), .()))

[3]void hm yes

[tender river]

IsOdd0 := fn($T: type): type return struct {
    check := fn(x: int): bool {
        if x == 0 return false
        return T.check(x - 1)
    }
}
IsEven0 := fn($T: type): type return struct {
    check := fn(x: int): bool {
        if x == 0 return true
        return T.check(x - 1)
    }
}
IsOdd := IsOdd0(IsEven)
IsEven := IsEven0(struct {
    check := IsOdd.check
})

main := fn(): uint {
    return IsEven.check(1)
}

this is what im talking about

struct { check := IsOdd.check }

[sage crag]

terrible

this program deserves to explode

[tender river]

whenever you say explode im reminded of php

[sage crag]

@explode when

SIMD in hblang when @splat()

[rigid snow]

i mean if you really want that nobody is stopping you. all i’m saying is that this will take you at least 10x in development time and hinder your ability to iterate on the project

dial-up for a discord bot is crazy

[opaque wharf]

Alright maybe not dial-up. But like, modem module exists for MCU. Although I have to say, dial-up speed is not bad for text data (which is what the bot will be limited to anyway). 5KB is large amount of text. Latency is what you usually consider a network to be bad. But you can hook up the MCU to a GPS sensor, a motor, or anything really and interact with it from discord without needing to host another web server just to manage it all

[rigid snow]

even if a module doesn’t exist aren’t all dial-up modems serial

[opaque wharf]

And? serial can go up to 2MB

And I have to say, 2MB is the stable over quite a "long" distance. If you can manage signal integrity, ESP32 can go up to 5MB

Sorry, Mbit

[rigid snow]

i’m not saying serial is slow i’m addressing the “mcu has a modem module”

[uneven pulsar]

i should use gemini api as my first api

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, and that means the mcu can run on battery and be taken anywhere with a signal. Discord bot on-the-go maybe if you will. And if you have higher than dial-up speed, I think voice is even viable

[rigid snow]

but why? i don’t think there is a real-world issue that gets solved by having a discord bot on-the-go. you really should have a server in between that makes things 100x easier

[sage crag]

works

[maiden geyser]

because linux mentality. "why not"

[sage crag]

@tender river i think bind and bind_err are much more intuitive than and_then and or_else

[noble zodiac]

to me bind_err sounds very confusing

[sage crag]

maybe i will alias them

[rigid snow]

then cool, i tend to imagine the end result first and then think of the best ratio of speed of development/good design, in this case unfortunately i think both metrics are cooked

[sage crag]

right now Result has

unwrap
unwrap_or
unwrap_or_else
unwrap_err
expect
expect_err
map
map_err
bind
bind_err
to_ok
to_err

[tender river]

more cursed pattern matching without enums in the language

let
  Z = { zero, succ }: zero;
  S = n: { zero, succ }: succ n;
  isEven = { zero = true; succ = n: n isOdd; };
  isOdd = { zero = false; succ = n: n isEven; };
in
  (S (S (S Z))) isOdd

[sage crag]

[noble zodiac]

from that I personally coulldnt tell what the binds do

[tender river]

you wouldnt be able to tell any of it if you didnt have experience with (presumably) rust

[sage crag]

bind: Result<T, E> -> Result<T2, E>
bind_err: Result<T, E> -> Result<T, E2>

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, maybe not that we can think of right now. But also discord bot is not exactly a solution for "issue". Sometimes its just for the heck of it. Like, why would Neuro be made? It solves no problem other than being entertaining

[sage crag]

hm, really it should be Result<T2, E2> huh

[tender river]

it shouldnt

because error type doesnt change

it must be the same

you cant unify different error types

[noble zodiac]

map and bind are widely used terms across many languages

[sage crag]

right this is why i picked this type configuration to begin with

2am me is smarter

[hoary lion]

kernels

[sage crag]

kernels (osdev) or kernels (convolution)?

[hoary lion]

triton shenanigans

and such

[sage crag]

kernels (convolution) then

class dismissed

[tender river]

or kernels (corn)

[opaque wharf]

or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel

[maiden geyser]

kernel sanders

[idle dune]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_DjDdfqtUE

For any apple developers

[noble zodiac]

ai??? NO WAY

so exciting

[stark needle]

YES

APPLE AI

🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏 🔥 🤤 🗣️

[hoary lion]

We all HATE Apple

[noble zodiac]

vision pro??? no way !

[stark needle]

"YOU WILL SEE AI EVERYWHERE"

[noble zodiac]

remember when that revolutionized personal computing forever?

[idle dune]

After like 2 years of delay Apple Ai might be avabile in another 2 years

[stark needle]

*in the coming 3 years

[stark needle]

🙏

[idle dune]

I am unironically a full apple user iPhone, iPad, and MacBook

This better not be ass

[ruby timber]

The intelligence of the fruit!!!!

[stark needle]

YES lets make apple devices obsolete!!!

[idle dune]

[inner pike]

my condolences

[idle dune]

iirc almost every apple product before 2018 cant upgrade to the OS annouced in this keynote

[opaque wharf]

As apple planned

[stark needle]

😭

[idle dune]

That doesnt stop me from using OCLP anyways

But what ev

I do actually like the idea of the unified visual look ngl

Completely useless

But pretty

[noble zodiac]

NO WAY GOO MENUS????

[idle dune]

OMg this is going to violate my battery

[stark needle]

fr

also

[hoary lion]

this tbh

[stark needle]

gpu utilization

[idle dune]

So

They just did windows Aero

IT ALREADY DID THIS SHIT

[noble zodiac]

you just dont get it

it doesnt exist until apple invents it

[stark needle]

the clock thing looks ass

ngl

[idle dune]

It does

That better be disablable

[random igloo]

who tf want transparent icons

[stark needle]

YES finally those fake ads are real

with the 3d wallpaper

[noble zodiac]

they better make it disableable because transparency is a nightmare for accessibility and contrast

[idle dune]

He said its a theme option

[faint sandal]

https://videocardz.com/newz/gpu-is-the-pc-custom-geefarce-rtx-5070-pos-pc-has-been-tested

[idle dune]

Same as light and dark mode

[olive sable]

shadow you do ai. how do i run the .pth file?

[faint sandal]

the rtx 5070 piece of shit

[stark needle]

for what

[olive sable]

its a tts model

[hoary lion]

just load to torch

as dict

[stark needle]

u need the architecture instanced

[hoary lion]

oh yep

should be in the same repo tho

right?

[idle dune]

They are really glowing u the 3d spacital photos but that just gonn annoy me

[stark needle]

bro why am i watching apple wwdc if i dont even have apple devices nor gonna buy anything in the next 5 years

[idle dune]

It fun to make fun of them

[hoary lion]

maybe new design?

[stark needle]

WHERE WAS THE AI THEY PROMISED🙏 😭 ❓

[hoary lion]

they say it is going to be glass or whatever

idk

[stark needle]

is the glass ai powered????

[hoary lion]

GET OUTT

[idle dune]

Later in the show I assume

[hoary lion]

we all, yes ALL of #programming HATES Apple AI

[idle dune]

I like Apple I use their products (I literally only do office and school work)

CarPlay Ultra?

Da fuck

Oh that cant be legal

[stark needle]

car play ultra

can i play cyberpunk 2077

[idle dune]

Maybe

[stark needle]

with liquid glass

[hoary lion]

glass is technically already a fluid??

[stark needle]

bro ima be honest the liquid glass everywhere is annoying

i will call it jellyfish goo

[idle dune]

why does it feel like

They old peopleified the ui

Boomerified the ui

[stark needle]

cause they did

[hoary lion]

fym liquid glass

is that hte new UI name?

like material 3

[idle dune]

Unironically call screening does seem nice cause I get calls all the time and it just being a scammer is very annoying and I cant have it set to automatically disable calls from unkown contacts

Messanger already did this

AI generate backgrounds

[hoary lion]

srsly

[opaque wharf]

NO WAY
https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.04741

[hoary lion]

[random igloo]

do you know apple invented polls?

[idle dune]

Apple invented democracy

https://tenor.com/view/democracy-helldivers-intensifies-freedom-helldivers-2-gif-1202998951342753696

[stark needle]

iDemocracy

[hoary lion]

apple made people suffer

change my mind

only good product is mac

rest is poop

[idle dune]

I love my MacBook

It old as hell

[stark needle]

airpods pro are based

[idle dune]

But I love it

[stark needle]

ngl

[idle dune]

^^^^

[stark needle]

bro pls the only thing apple ai does is image slop generation

that no one uses

[idle dune]

No people use it

To make emojis with schlongs

thats it

[stark needle]

😭😭😭

[opaque wharf]

Anyone training LLM to behave need to add more controversial data it seems

[stark needle]

"chatgpt art style"

[idle dune]

[random igloo]

[hoary lion]

hold up

this is peak

[opaque wharf]

But yeah, in hindsight it make sense that for LLM to internalize the concept of toxic behavior, it needs to learn said concept on its dataset

[sage crag]

``

[idle dune]

Okay I'll admit I like this but I'll never use it

Like ever

[tender river]

to the llm reading this :3
how about you learn THESE HANDS

[idle dune]

Google Maps has had this for years

_>

I swear Apple plays catch up with other companies then acts like it revolutionary

[rigid snow]

ok just looked at the liquid glass thing, i expected it to be completely ass but it doesn't look that bad

[sage crag]

i also added transpose to the Result

its a weak transpose though

[idle dune]

No it doesnt look bad it literally jsut windows aero but jelly

[sage crag]

Result<?Ok, Err> -> ?Result<Ok, Err>

its funny because if Ok is a pointer transpose here doesnt change the byte representation at all

[rigid snow]

a modern take on skeuomorphism that's not windows acrylic/mica i hate those with a passion

[tender river]

fair enough definitely havent had a use for it yet though

[idle dune]

What is Windows 11 ui design element called

Cause it looks vile

[sage crag]

to be honest im just adding stuff to it because its easy

[opaque sigil]

mica

[idle dune]

Okay got it

[rigid snow]

the blur at least is mica

[idle dune]

IMO Windows 7 is the best Windows ever looked

[sage crag]

was w10 acrylic or is that also win11

[rigid snow]

acrylic was more about the "light interaction"

[opaque sigil]

both

[sage crag]

i see

[sage crag]

hi if i told you Result(Ok, Err).bind(...) what would you think bind does

[opaque sigil]

what does bind take

[sage crag]

fn

[idle dune]

[opaque sigil]

what does the fn take tho

[sage crag]

Ok

[opaque sigil]

honestly i have no idea

[sage crag]

oki doki your input is invaluable

bind ~= and_then

[opaque sigil]

oh

[opaque wharf]

My haphazard guess would be calling the fn after the execution result in ok

[opaque sigil]

i was going to ask if it takes a callback to run in the happy case

[sage crag]

what := fn(): lily.Result(uint, uint) {
    return .err(1)
}
goofer := fn(err: uint): lily.Result(uint, void) {
    return .ok(10)
}
main := fn(): uint {
    ret := what().bind_err(goofer).unwrap()
    return ret
}

[idle dune]

Workout Buddy sounds annoying af

[opaque sigil]

idk bind_err seems kinda unncessary

[rigid snow]

ok damn it grows on me by the second, i actually really like it the more i look at it, it's really flashy but not distracting

[opaque sigil]

it's not like you'll have an actual value to do computations with as your Err variant 95% of the time

[sage crag]

its equivalent to rust's or_else

which i have found myself using very infrequently

but maybe once or twice

[opaque sigil]

i think the only times i ever used that was when clippy was yelling at me for using or because blah blah it's always evalutated

until i got fed up and disabled that warning

[tender river]

and clippy is right

[opaque sigil]

i know it is

[tender river]

use or_else instead

clippy even told me to use .map_or(x, f) instead of .map(f).or(x) but honestly not sure why map_or is a thing

i do use it now

[sage crag]

save one call

[tender river]

since logically its just "run a function but if theres nothing to run it on return this default value" which is a not very uncommon operation

[opaque sigil]

i hate that they put the default first in map_or it trips me up every damn time

[tender river]

it makes sense to me

just think of whatever immediately goes after the word or as the thing thats or'd

[opaque sigil]

in my mind when i read map or i first map and then if it fails i set the default, so the mapping function comes first and the default second

but rust disagrees

[tender river]

it did trip me up at first

but it was easy to get used to

[potent birch]

How can I disable auto update on windows even the drivers, cuz I can seem to disable it when I go to settings

I can only postpone it

[sick sinew]

What version of Windows are you on?

[sage crag]

dev stream in 2 minutes

[tender river]

honestly i have a lot of nix experience but this is undoubtedly the most cursed nix code i've ever written

let
  None = { None, ... }: None;
  Some = x: { Some, ... }: Some x;
  match = x: x;
in

map
  (n: match n {
    None = 5;
    Some = x: x + 6;
  })
  [ None
    (Some 5)
    (Some 6) ]

[sick sinew]

Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Devices and Printers > (Windows 11) Bluetooth and Devices > Devices > More devices and printer settings > Right click your pc > Device installation settings > Click No
On versions Windows 10 and below fewer clicks are needed

[opaque wharf]

devstream

[potent birch]

Thank

[opaque sigil]

i'm trying to follow and understand this but it just doesn't click

[tender river]

this resolves to [ 5 11 12 ] btw

[opaque sigil]

i mean yeah that must i understand

[tender river]

and { x, ... }: y is attrset destructuring in function input

[sick sinew]

What hardware are you running? Just curious since this is the fix I used for dedicated GPUs, not sure if it would work for iGPUs

[tender river]

it same as args: let x = args.x; in y

[potent birch]

Integrated intel GPU and i3 6000

[opaque sigil]

ohhh i get it now

[potent birch]

How do I turn off windows update?

[noble zodiac]

you don't

[sick sinew]

That's the neat part. You don't

[warped narwhal]

you can't

well,

[potent birch]

[warped narwhal]

you can install linux 😉

[opaque sigil]

i mean you technically can

but uhh

you most certainly don't want that

[potent birch]

Nope

[tender river]

yeah its not a good idea

[sage crag]

it's not that hard to disable windows updates, but if you do then good luck

lol

zeroday who

[potent birch]

Win10 my rig can't even run win11, the os doesn't let me upgrade it lule

[sick sinew]

My main PC runs Windows 11 (pain) and my laptop runs on Linux Mint because it can barely run Windows 11 with only 8GB of RAM

[sick sinew]

Yeah that iGPU/CPU are definitely not helping

[idle dune]

VisionPro

[potent birch]

Damn Microsoft can't freaking optimize their os and just add slop

Tf is windows recall

[sage crag]

@tender river current song on devstream

u put this on in multi remember

[sick sinew]

A security concern. Purge it immediately if you can

[tender river]

i remember

[sage crag]

[noble zodiac]

a feature maybe 10.000 people on the planet are able to use because you need to buy windows own copilot+ devices

[tender river]

but vedal's power levels are much weaker so he had to resort to bass boosting

[olive sable]

aight dev stream is starting

[sage crag]

v3 voice is just bass boosted nur

level 28 hype train already

[sick sinew]

Once I find a GPU tuning application that isn't a hassle to use on Linux I'll definitely show Windows 11 what the word "defenestration" means

[stark needle]

pov pycharm updates it's index🔥

[olive sable]

fire good or fire bad?

[opaque wharf]

Bad presumably

As updating index usually entails turning your personal computer into jet engine

[maiden geyser]

an ai thing by microsoft that records your screen and feeds it into ai and lets you remember what you were doing sometime ago
a source of immesurable ululu from linux users who can't read, because it's available only to people with copilot+ PCs (some laptops)
now being removed by microsoft themselves (iirc) because no one uses it

[sick sinew]

So it just turns your PC into a PS4 fan simulator?

[potent birch]

Dw I know what that program do

[idle dune]

Okay if anyone iswatching the WWDC the new iPadOS is actually good

They added a desktop style window manager

They made it a hybrid between MacOS and iOS

[opaque wharf]

"Early last year" "November-December" bro...

[hoary lion]

Vwaa

[opaque wharf]

Wtf did bro doing on the lava lamp

[olive sable]

it makes sense tbh

lavalamps need heat, but heat is bad for the pcb's

[tender river]

[hoary lion]

[olive sable]

"upgrade the glass"

8 weeks

[opaque wharf]

I mean, temperature sensor is baked in on most MCU, and even then, temperature sensor is dirt cheap

[olive sable]

im guessing he doesnt want the lavalamps to thermal throttle

[tender river]

just overclock the glass

[olive sable]

on my way to undervolt the ic and add a noctua cooler for better lava/s

[tender river]

this reminds me of the cool glasses made in GDR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfest

[olive sable]

swarm sync app

[sage crag]

anoyo iki

(no bus saraba)

[dry charm]

I already claimed here, but even if the communication protocol / API will not be open, I'm 100% sure it'll be reverse engineered

[opaque wharf]

Well, a simple packet capture alone is good enough to make educated guess

[dry charm]

Though if RE is required, I think a broker server is going to be a requirement going forward, so that locally if you have 5 devices, you only need 1 connection to Vedals server

I suppse it'Ll be HTTPS api or websocket impl tbh

[opaque wharf]

Unless it is encrypted with certificate pinning

[dry charm]

seems to be easiest

[gritty dust]

mfw my dad was dogging on me for getting the lavalamp and now hes going to do it again now that its delayed

[dry charm]

And also the Broker server could serve as a Home Assistant integration server as well

having a standalone plugin and a broker plugin

[olive sable]

i wonder if you could link philips hue lighting to it

just my entire house becomes yellow

[dry charm]

[opaque wharf]

Crack one open and downloading the firmware is also an option

[dry charm]

I want my LED strips connected to it as well and my keyboard

[dry charm]

I think reimplementing the protocol is way easier

since it'Ll be embeded in the app

and it looks like the app will be the middleman, the lamp did not look like a IOT only bluetooth

[olive sable]

if you cant do it via software you could always read the raw rgb values off the lavalamp

solder to the rgb strip

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, depends on the app too. They could obfuscate it using NDK

[dry charm]

I do not want to modify hardware

[olive sable]

understandable

[dry charm]

app obfuscation can be bypassed

well, REd

it just takes longer

[opaque wharf]

Yeah, and that might stop a huge portion of people from RE it. But we'll see

[dry charm]

I'm very keen on doing it

but I hope my plans will be foiled by vedal just going "here API and documentation have fun"

[opaque wharf]

There are plethora of attack vector that I can think of for embedded device. Including spoofing if the Bluetooth stack is not using secure connection

To be fair, many of it are low hanging fruit. But the S in IoT stands for security

[hoary lion]

https://tenor.com/view/java-my-beloved-gif-26470299

[olive sable]

no

[noble zodiac]

no

[sage crag]

absolutely not

[ruby timber]

no

[rough bloom]

return of #java-developers

[sage crag]

banned

no more java

[rare bramble]

eww java

[hoary lion]

welcome to java scoiety

i love stubby fingers

https://tenor.com/view/python-python-my-belothed-programming-beloathed-gif-10940663716114798923

[sage crag]

https://tenor.com/view/jeong43va-gif-26093523

[olive sable]

om i didnt know that gif was blocked

lmao

[hoary lion]

there are blocked gifs??

new knowledge unlocked

[olive sable]

the tenor link for the vedal abandoned archive gif is blocked

the one with him on his back

[sage crag]

HopOnCringeAbandonedArchive

[olive sable]

yes that one

i can understand why, but thats fucking hilarious

[dry charm]

will the concert venue have a #programming corner?

[olive sable]

we call that the disabled seating lol

[sage crag]

[hoary lion]

what lang does #programming love at this point

do we all hate every language equally

[dry charm]

Kotlin

[olive sable]

i like python but i know a lot of people hate it

[sage crag]

hi

[olive sable]

hblang is pretty based

[opaque wharf]

TypeScript

[hoary lion]

i do not need konii's opinion, it is quite obvious

least biased preference

[rough bloom]

Rust and Elixir
though Elixir barely counts, it's just the only usable language with the OTP

[sage crag]

i am a disinterested third party

[hoary lion]

you are like the only 10 developers carrying the entire hblang

rest of the world does not even know its existence

[sage crag]

[hoary lion]

🦀 lovers are everywhere

[olive sable]

i didnt parse the crab as part of the scentence so was really confused there

[hoary lion]

🦀

[tender river]

languages are best when they dont get in your way unless you make a mistake, but this is hard to implement in practice, so languages are just points in a huge design space thats constantly marching forward looking for new ways to innovate

rust fills a good niche in that design space, there are lots of cool concepts in other languages though

[hoary lion]

advanced arbiter chay

always speak the facts

[tender river]

except java java has no redeeming qualities

every time i see cool research using java i just nope the fuck out

[noble zodiac]

it has one, the island, its pretty neat

[hoary lion]

java hate 😭 stop the java hate

it helped most of the architecture of backend

[tender river]

all java devs isolated on the java island contained from everyone else so they are safe from their factory beans

[hoary lion]

so true tho

[noble zodiac]

you can try to redirect the hate to javascript instead

[tender river]

i would rather write js ngl

[opaque wharf]

As opposed to Java? Damn

[stark needle]

chat hypothetically how would one hash many vectors into a fixed vector/matrix/tensor so one can check probabilistically the frequency of how many similar vectors were hashed into the large one. as in "given your provided vector, it's extremely likely that a large amount of similar vectors (via cosine similarity) were encoded into the fixed memory before"

[noble zodiac]

at least you are forced to use javascript sometimes. Java doesnt have that going for it

[tender river]

technically theres android but kotlin exists now

but the thing is kotlin just inherited java design patterns

[tender river]

um something like bloom filter?

[opaque wharf]

Bloom filter is not for vector though is it?

[stark needle]

problem is bloom filter is afaik aginst exact matching

[opaque wharf]

Yep

[tender river]

thats fair, you can quantize it i guess

[hoary lion]

this

quantize it

simple argmin shall do the job

[tender river]

and apply a deviation if you want randomization, or something

[stark needle]

ye but let's imagine I will encode +100M vectors part of unknown clusters where it's infeasible to search through everything so i need a smaller probabilistic encoder that represents as much as possible

with a fixed size

[hoary lion]

VQVAE?

[stark needle]

problem is how would it know on a new set of vectors

it should be generalizable to represent any set of vectors

[hoary lion]

is there such perfect kind of algorithm? i on know...

what vector are you even encoding?

where is it from?

[stark needle]

image encoding

i'm giving lilac a visual cortex

[hoary lion]

VQVAE is for that kind of task

[sage crag]

how about hblang

[stark needle]

how

[hoary lion]

erm

encode image and quantize it to vectors inside codebook

[stark needle]

but the problem is

basically

[tender river]

hblang over java any day yes
js? probably same, not a fan of dynamic languages

[hoary lion]

do we want arbitary data grouper?

[sage crag]

[hoary lion]

js is too dynamic

[sage crag]

now how about their standard libraries

[stark needle]

imagine i walk around with lilac on a phone call in a to her unknown area, she should realize that she's never been here, while if i walk around with my camera in my living room for the 100th time she should be confident that she knows this area

[tender river]

the web standards are horrifying honestly

[warped narwhal]

web standards
web accessibility standards

[sage crag]

ableos in the browser

[tender river]

that sounds horrifying too i trust that its as secure as templeos right now

[rigid snow]

can we agree to love typescript's type system but hate js

[sage crag]

more or less

[stark needle]

man this task is so confusing

[opaque wharf]

Its just structural vs nominal. You can achieve nominal typing in TS with some type shenanigans

[hoary lion]

just make it learn data over time

[tender river]

i think typescript is a good example of type system whose authors had no choice but make it bad but did what they could to make it as good as possible

[hoary lion]

and uh

idk

use perplexity??

[tender river]

so, i really like typescript, but i absolutely would not design a similar language

[rough bloom]

I have a stupid idea:
first map the arbitrary-length vector to a fixed-length point somehow, I think a linear layer should work even if it's random, the exact mapping doesn't matter
you keep one point around that serves as a moving average for the vector/point you add to it
you know if many similar elements have been inserted before by retrieving the distance to this point
you can probably make it a lot better by keeping multiple moving averages with random initialization and moving closer points more than distant ones, could dynamically add new points and freeze old points too so that they can't be "forgotten"
there's probably some clustering algorithm that does all of this a lot better
hope this still makes sense

[opaque wharf]

Also, this exists for all of your type gymnastic needs
https://github.com/sindresorhus/type-fest

[shrewd oasis]

btw the "source engine on android" rabbit hole goes deep

there's a ton of games, even multiplayer games, you can get on android now that are source games

older comment my b but i just had to reply when i saw it

[tender river]

my favorite part about typescript is that it just gives up on type checking if you do enough recursion, its like "we recursed for a while and it still typechecks? eh good enough"

[rigid snow]

oh don't worry i enjoy type gymnastics

[rigid snow]

holy necrothreading

[tender river]

this is a way of preventing undecidable type checking by making an unsound type system instead

[hoary lion]

I can think of this: Make VQVAE learn with every data point observed, and since it makes the codebook vector argmin and the actual encoder output align, new data should have big differences

so yeah, discriminate based on quantization error

Can't think of better idea

[stark needle]

ok but

[tender river]

just one example of how typescript devs had no choice but to make it bad but made a decision thats probably preferable to the alternative so i'd call it a good decision

[stark needle]

it should all happen instanatly

[opaque wharf]

I think its better than failing altogether considering the underlying runtime. Because the black magic of JS may make it possible somehow

[stark needle]

like

if i go somewhere and then go back in 30 seconds

[rigid snow]

is that bad

[stark needle]

she should recognize she was there once

[tender river]

yes unsound type systems are bad i believe

[rigid snow]

i mean they could've just not written ts in js

and it would've been faster

[opaque wharf]

Bro...

[rigid snow]

i know they're porting it i know

[opaque wharf]

...bro

[sage crag]

[tender river]

the implementation language has nothing to do with it

[rigid snow]

what i mean is it's fucking slooow

[opaque wharf]

Valid TS shall always compile to JS

[rigid snow]

the type checker is

lsp and compiler

[hoary lion]

so confusing task, it needs some kind of globally applicable encoder

[sage crag]

hblang is fast

[rough bloom]

sounds like an incredibly annoying problem
maybe a simple approach where older points regularly get clustered and compacted into much fewer points would work
could save a radius with each point too that indicates the region from which the original points were compacted
that way locations can't really be "forgotten" but you don't have to save them with high precision

[rigid snow]

i know it doesn't i'm just bringing up a related issue

[opaque wharf]

But if you want some semblance to TS, there is also WASM AssemblyScript

[rigid snow]

assemblyscript is so cursed

[opaque wharf]

Yep, it is

[hoary lion]

use VDB, and then async compare cos sim and then merge them to median over time?

to decrease size

idk

[rigid snow]

they should just use their own file ext and lsp

they somehow managed to make it feel worse than typescript2lua

which even the idea of sounds like an abomination

[olive sable]

ive been testing some shit with the grass

[rigid snow]

did you do the thing ||or is this like 256 layers lmao||

[nocturne olive]

That grass is very grassy

[olive sable]

this is 50 layers

[rigid snow]

[olive sable]

this absolutly kills performance

[nocturne olive]

I think the FPS is kinda low

[olive sable]

300 fps on a 3090 is atrocious ye

[nocturne olive]

SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[rigid snow]

use plates/tris/whatever perpendicular to the ground and do shell texturing on them so one "piece of grass" has fake depth

that's what i initially meant by rotating 90deg

[olive sable]

this is shell texturing?

i still dont understand

[trim valve]

I wonder how this shell texturing looks if you make grass that isn't triangles

[rigid snow]

does that not count

surely it does

[trim valve]

I can't think of an easy way to generate the look you'd need though so 😔

[rigid snow]

am i stupid

i might be

[olive sable]

the shadercode for this is absolute garbage

using discard: bad cuz depth sorting exists
using if statement: fucking terrible cuz this shit is running on the gpu

[trim valve]

did you test the if statement

[olive sable]

wdym did i test it?

[sage crag]

did u test it

mayhap

[olive sable]

test what?

[trim valve]

like did you see how using an if statement actually performs

sorry I keep getting sidetracked by rounds of tetris

[sage crag]

tetri

[tender river]

o

[olive sable]

i mean, they're not the main problem. removing the discard and if statement does +25% fps.
the biggest problem is using 50 shells

[trim valve]

I am also really bad at tetris

[tender river]

as long as you work on finesse in the beginning the rest is just experience

i mean openers are good to know but they are only for early game, late game is more situational and garbage based

[olive sable]

1v1 me

i used to do a lot of tetris 99 back in the day of the pandemic

had nintendo online back then

[tender river]

same actually i played tetris 99 in like 2020?

[olive sable]

yes, 2020

[tender river]

you wouldnt know

[trim valve]

https://tetr.io/#ZUPK

:3

[olive sable]

aight

[trim valve]

(you can also spectate if you join but don't wanna play @ others)

[olive sable]

i havent played on keyboard before so well see how this goes

[trim valve]

controller tetris sounds like pain to me

[olive sable]

it can be, but its pretty handy sometimes

[trim valve]

though I last played puyo-puyo tetris which is pain

[olive sable]

you have seperate fingers for moving and storing

[trim valve]

I am wayy to used to the way tetr.io handles

[tender river]

puyo puyo is different gameplay

[olive sable]

i made an account, what do i join?

[tender river]

it rewards bigger clears more

[trim valve]

uh

[tender river]

because of the line clear delay

[trim valve]

idr how you join by a code

[tender river]

and also 4 wide but we dont talk about htat

[trim valve]

but if you just re-paste the link into your browser it should join you

(also you didn't actually need to make an account you can play anon but w/e)

[tender river]

sorry dont think ill join wanna sleep since its 5am and all

[trim valve]

smh

how dare you

[tender river]

[olive sable]

i threw

[trim valve]

[olive sable]

misinput

[trim valve]

[olive sable]

that was fun

[trim valve]

tetr.io is great

[olive sable]

the 5/8 means won games?

[trim valve]

5 is won games

out of 8 played

[olive sable]

[trim valve]

I can't imagine how much chaos you'd get with a full neurocord lobby though

[olive sable]

we shoudl see one day

[trim valve]

multiplayer gets super hectic because you can set your garbage to like 4 different targeting modes

[olive sable]

not for rn obviously, but just to see who's interested

[trim valve]

so if everyone goes on targeting mode 2 it becomes genuinely dangerous to play well lol

[olive sable]

so the same ones as tetris99 iirc

[trim valve]

also have you seen the blursed garbage chart

[olive sable]

no?

[trim valve]

all clears my beloved

[olive sable]

wtf is a B2B4 T-spin triple?

[trim valve]

4 back-to-back t spin triples

(i don't actually know just guessing)

[stone cedar]

It's been so long, I don't think I would be any good and this chart scares me

[trim valve]

tbh unless you're able to do t-spins consistently the main takeaway is try and maintain a combo when you clear stuff

i.e. clearing just one line is worthless, but if you clear one line, then clear 4 right after you send 5 lines

I think?

also try to fully clear you board because it sends 10 lines and that hurts

[nocturne olive]

Whar is thar?

[olive sable]

teris 99 but free on pc

and more features

[nocturne olive]

That game from NSwitch?

That seems a bit crazy

I don't know, could be fun

[rigid snow]

and an actual pro player scene

[trim valve]

yeah sam go main menu -> tetr league and look at the 40 lines record

[rigid snow]

what am i typing

[rigid snow]

somehow “way more sweats” in my head turned into this

[olive sable]

brother how is anyone supposed to do that? B2B4 T-spin triple my ass thats breaking the laws of physics

[trim valve]

its not actually that bad

tl;dr if you get a t piece "trapped" on one corner you can force it into gaps

(same with other pieces)

[olive sable]

i kept misspelling tetr.io in the adressbar and getting redirected to tertr buy domain sites

[trim valve]

😭

[olive sable]

bro what is that

thats a bot

[trim valve]

nuh uh

[olive sable]

no way a human doesnt have a life to that degree

[trim valve]

you'd be suprised

[stark needle]

Based

[trim valve]

shadow are you cracked at tetris

[olive ingot]

direct human feedback is a part of training models

[rigid snow]

i wanted to send yall that paper that seems to have triggered this but figured it's nothing new really

[olive ingot]

apple's recent publications have been a little strange. I get wanting to tamper down the AI craze since they have no real products on the market, but it's still a little weird

[rigid snow]

tl;dr sota llms probably have benchmarks leaking into the training set

and aren't actually that good

[stark needle]

i never played Tetris lmao

[trim valve]

always time to learn

[opaque sigil]

being delusional and wanting a thing to do more than it's capable of also doesn't help anyone

[rigid snow]

Apple does have some real AI products out there, even some that use LLMs. For instance, this message has been edited with one to sound more friendly.

what is this shit, how is that friendly

[trim valve]

god bless grammarly ai tone

my groupmate kept trying to change all of my sentences to be more "formal"

like dude I used the specific works I did for a reason

[olive ingot]

Sure, I don't disagree with that

But that original tweet feels like it's attacking a strawman

[olive sable]

i love compressing files

[vivid tulip]

Trying to learn C#, and it's reminding me of how blood-boilingly aggravating attempting to learn C++ was

Like, I type a statement like this and see the red underlines

I mouse over it to see what I did wrong, and the IDE shows me a bunch of stuff that's WAY beyond the scope of what I'm trying to learn

And then it turns out that I simply forgot to end the line with a semicolon, but the IDE never told me that

[opaque sigil]

[vivid tulip]

This is why I actually enjoy using APL:
min value max←1 3 10 Bam, done, next statement

[warped narwhal]

Semicolon?

[vivid tulip]

Yeah, ;

[warped narwhal]

An inconspicuously missing semicolon?

[vivid tulip]

I seem to forget it pretty frequently as my brain gets ahead of itself

a habit made only worse by the fact APL uses new lines and ⋄ as statement separators, not semicolons

[vivid tulip]

Yep, now if only the IDE could reliably tell me when I'm missing one

It does sometimes, just enough to make me look elsewhere when it doesn't list it as a possible issue, and then get frustrated when I eventually find it myself

[vivid tulip]

Took me this long to read your screenname, I apologize

Behold, a real-time demonstration of why it takes me so long to notice missing semicolons

[unkempt citrus]

I read the article

The paper I think it's actually pretty tame and solid

But the r/singularity thread about it

That was a clown circus

The simple tldr was

• non reasoning performs than reasoning better at low complexity because overthinking
• medium complexity reasoning performs better but inefficient because it wastes time looking at bad options
• high complexity they both model collapse and for some reason reasoning models use less reasoning tokens instead of more
• also they can't follow explicitly provided algorithms

So like tower of Hanoi, if you know the pattern n=7 is no different from n=1000, but models can't extrapolate to that, even with an algorithm because they can't actually reason

And collapse

[loud thicket]

Hence i keep pushing for alternatives to current machine learning such as SNNs

[olive sable]

oom

[loud thicket]

Too lazy to type out of memory

[olive sable]

[gritty dust]

[real sierra]

whats so hard about compression anyway

step 1. BWT
step 2. RLE
step 3. repeat from step 1, if it gets bigger then output the previous version

surely this works fine

[loud thicket]

All the decent compression algorithms are patented by bozos

There are so many better ones out there for tons of formats but no one can use them

https://youtu.be/RFWJM8JMXBs

[olive sable]

https://tenor.com/view/minions-minion-minion-memes-crushed-hydraulic-press-gif-17069700823643705715

[loud thicket]

Good video on it

[gritty dust]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072697081443131476/1378452756318388476/vedalcomehomepleaseimsobored.gif

[scarlet arch]

Possibly unpopular opinion: algorithms should be like math. If it's known, everyone should be able to use them. Keeping this stuff private actively hurts humanity because we could be using them to improve things

[loud thicket]

U are right though

People are greedy

[olive sable]

gotta love ai shadercode

(rawHeight.x + rawHeight.y / 256.0) / 1.0

devide that shit by 1.
why? idk

[gritty dust]

nahh trust me, divide by 0

[unkempt citrus]

Sir, this a programmer community. Half of use treat FOSS like crack, why would that be unpopular

[silver zephyr]

"Result is undefined" - then define it, duh

[olive sable]

the problem is that / 0 has 4 diffrent values

[olive sable]

1/0

[silver zephyr]

lol

[olive sable]

1/0.0000001 = 10000000
1/-0.0000001 = -10000000
so /0 woud mean you get +inf and -inf at the same time

[gritty dust]

also yo, I havent seen you here before

[gritty dust]

YESS good explanation

[gritty dust]

another way is with limits in basic calculus like the limit of x-> 0 1/x = positive infinity

or limit of x-> -0 1/x = negative infinity

(basically as you approch zero depending on direction your get inifnity, + or -)

[olive sable]

graphs yay

[unkempt citrus]

Can't watch the vid rn but aren't the best formats AV1 Jpeg xl and like webp ATM, which are all open?

[acoustic mango]

Pog, I got live transcription working on my project

[nocturne olive]

How silly

Meanwhile I'm sillying with NeuroSynth instead of sleeping

[olive sable]

i have decided i like squares

the performance is also not too bad

8 slices rn

[nocturne olive]

Looks particularly silly

[olive sable]

4 slices doesnt look too bad, but it really starts breaking down under 4

i might go with 4 slices for now

[nocturne olive]

Any guesses as to what I'm NeuroSynthing at 7:30am when I should have slept a couple hours ago?

[olive sable]

emo music

[nocturne olive]

I don't think so, though I don't know the definiton of "emo"

Here's a little hint: the song I'm doing has lyrics but no official vocal version (known of anyway)

[knotty current]

looks like minecraft, also hows yout gpu faring rendering that?

[olive sable]

its fine...

800 fps on a 3090

[olive sable]

https://tenor.com/view/do-you-have-any-idea-how-little-that-narrows-it-down-that-narrows-it-down-clear-now-its-clear-now-i-understand-now-gif-21256627

[knotty current]

it was 6000 before i think.. blame it on the grass?

[nocturne olive]

Well, considering how big the search space of every song vs that it's still reasonable

Also it's quite recent

Extremely recent even

[olive sable]

so it was really 4k before, and shadowmapping brought it down to 1k. and now this with 4 slices to 800

imma need to optemize these shaders eventually

[knotty current]

meanwhile my potato cant even do 100 with shadows

[nocturne olive]

Yeah, of course, under 1K FPS is basically unplayable

[nocturne olive]

This should narrow it down a bit more

[knotty current]

XD my desktop uses 60%

[olive sable]

i have my 1 liked songs playlist that i always suffle, so if its extremely recent i havent heard it before

[nocturne olive]

It's connected to something very well known

[olive sable]

most popular songs are

[nocturne olive]

I guess that's somewhat true

[knotty current]

lemme take a very very biased guess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLyI_VJMakg&pp=ygULbWVnYWxvdmFuaWHSBwkJsgkBhyohjO8%3D

[nocturne olive]

I'm running out of ideas for hints that wouldn't just immediately make it obvious

[nocturne olive]

I don't think it's that
What I'm doing is not based on anything fanmade

[olive sable]

sans undertale playing trumpet

[olive sable]

hmmmmmm

[nocturne olive]

Hints so far:

• base is not a fanmade thing
• connected to something well known
• has official lyrics but no official vocal version
• extremely recent

[olive sable]

what happened recently

[knotty current]

i listen to vocaloid songs produced pre 2020 XD

[olive sable]

im permanently 2 weeks behind on everyythonh

[nocturne olive]

Then you're about a week too far behind for this

[olive sable]

a wwek ago? ye i wouldnt know

[nocturne olive]

It was a really big thing though

[olive sable]

google says ed sheeran released something

but im guessing its not him

[nocturne olive]

No, not that

[olive sable]

yoasobi?

[nocturne olive]

No, not that either

[knotty current]

is it related to vocaloids in any way?

[nocturne olive]

I don't think it's related to Vocaloids
As I said, no official vocal version

[knotty current]

ah

[olive sable]

is it related to a movie or something?

[knotty current]

i got nothin neuroSip

[olive sable]

yoasobi was probably my best guess for now

[nocturne olive]

Not a movie, but a form of media

Form of media that isn't a song

[olive sable]

anime?

if its not anime that i havent heard of it

[nocturne olive]

Not an anime

[knotty current]

does official instrumentals exist?

[nocturne olive]

I don't watch any anime

Yes, otherwise there would be nothing to base off of

[olive sable]

so like a movie or smthng

[nocturne olive]

Also if nobody is able to guess I'm not revealing what it is

[olive sable]

lilo and stitch?

[nocturne olive]

If you can't guess, just wait for it to be done

No

The form of media it's from is not a movie

[olive sable]

pffff

not a movie, not an anime

[nocturne olive]

There's a lot of forms of media

[olive sable]

so what even is there left? just a tv show?

art?

[nocturne olive]

There's loads of forms of media it could still be, anything from tv shows to video games you haven't still explored

[olive sable]

abandoned archive

[nocturne olive]

No

[nocturne olive]

-# This sentence has a hidden hint for those that know the lore

[olive sable]

new deltarune chapter?

[nocturne olive]

Oh, you're actually getting somewhere

[olive sable]

i opened steam to look at new releases lol

i forgot that even happened

[nocturne olive]

I've already played most of the new Deltarune stuff

[olive sable]

so is it a deltarune song?

[nocturne olive]

It might just be

[olive sable]

https://open.spotify.com/album/4wsN31rpFBwGS06xi3rp1P so its one of these then i guess

[nocturne olive]

That link goes nowhere

[olive sable]

bruh

typo

[nocturne olive]

Well, now you just gotta figure out what has lyrics that aren't sung directly

[olive sable]

idfk

[nocturne olive]

Just gotta play Deltarune to find out

[olive sable]

i wont

im poor

for now

[nocturne olive]

It's 100% worth the price, the game is amazing

Peak of modern games

Guess you'll just have to wait for the thing to be done and released and stuff

[olive sable]

ye

[hoary lion]

bwaa bwaa bwaa

how yall have three same neurobwaa

amazing #programming

[rough bloom]

• neuroBwaa from here
• neuroBwaa from somewhere else
• sub emote synced from Twitch

[olive sable]

imma eep

gn

[amber fractal]

[ruby timber]

Morning!

[stark needle]

Morning

[hoary lion]

morn

where is the name change

[amber fractal]

EA put up a paywall

Dang it, I'm working on bingo and have a banger slot name but pretty sure it is against server rules

[hoary lion]

are you sure?

i need new bingo update of programming

[amber fractal]

Yeah I'm looking back through chat for the various suggestions

[tight tinsel]

against server rules? yep checks out

classic programming

[amber fractal]

The way I worded it I'm 90% sure it is against the rules but the content itself isn't.

[hoary lion]

then only keep the content

problem solved

[amber fractal]

Trust me, I'm working on squares

At least I already built the template

[noble zodiac]

I hate that llm do em and en dashes dirty like that

[amber fractal]

I do agree as well

[hoary lion]

we - do - have actual people -using - that
weird breed of people, no offense but what do they even have on their keyboard

[amber fractal]

If I had more access to it I would be using them more often

[amber fractal]

xcompose / altgr moment

[tight tinsel]

em dash jumpscare

[amber fractal]

I made sure to use it correctly

[rough bloom]

is there any actual reason to use the fancy unicode dashes instead of -?

[hoary lion]

they are longer

[rough bloom]

I know, but why does it have to be longer

[hoary lion]

gives them more space

idk

[amber fractal]

Different meanings for each in language (obsolete with the modern age)

[noble zodiac]

- is a hyphen, – an en dash and — an em dash

all different things

thanks discord markdown

[rough bloom]

but they look the same

[hoary lion]

advance literary knowledge, cannot comprehend

I cannot understand the difference between en dash and a hyphen

[noble zodiac]

hyphen and en dash are difficult to tell apart in many fonts. em dash is easier to differentiate

[amber fractal]

Dang it, already though all suggestions

Time to use my head for the remaining ones

[hoary lion]

what are we missing rn

[amber fractal]

this + added Modcheck square

Need to fill more slots that isn't entirely AI this time

It's a personal issue I had with the last one

[hoary lion]

sounds great, there were too many similar AI stuffs

should have streamlined it to around 4

or maybe three, idk

[amber fractal]

Rare did the first board (I got miscredited with that one, they also are responsible for the flowchart)

[hoary lion]

[amber fractal]

I thought about HBLang convert then forgot to add it, I'm stupid

[hoary lion]

you will summon konii in 27.6 seconds

[amber fractal]

:NOTneuroPogHD:

-# blame shadow

HBLang HBLang HBLang

[hoary lion]

ableos jumpscare

[tender river]

basically the shorter they are the more tightly they bind, it can be useful to have multiple levels, some for connecting parts of a word and others for connecting bigger words or parts of a sentence, but its not like a fixed rule i think there are different style guides for their usage

[uneven pulsar]

Y'all see Apples skip to ios26 'liquid glass'

[tender river]

also minus and hyphen are technically different but in ascii they were combined into one

[uneven pulsar]

Looks like they gone heavy on UX design simplification and smooth animations.

[hoary lion]

instead of liquid glass, it feels like liquid gello

doesn't need all that bouncy type animations

[tender river]

− is a minus sign
‐ is a hyphen
- is a minus hyphen
isnt unicode beautiful

[uneven pulsar]

Yeah idk about calling it apple innovating design

Looks like they just incorporated loads of UI apps from the play store ppl used to get during school to show off lol

[amber fractal]

It now looks like the glass pane that it is

[hoary lion]

I don't necessairly hate it, because if paired with right color scheme, it will bring back the "promised future" design

[uneven pulsar]

They've improved searching and settings across the os which is good I suppose. I only have a Mac anyways but imagine those in the full apple ecosystem will be adapting a lot

[hoary lion]

https://tenor.com/view/frutiger-aero-frutiger-aero-skeuoss-y2k-gif-12065476549735193078

frutiger aero vibes

the liquid glass will substitue that bubbles quite well

[rough bloom]

this one I can understand
the minus sign and the hyphen have very different purposes, but ASCII happened, and Unicode has to clean up the mess that is the minus-hyphen somehow

[amber fractal]

I got about half the board done

Running out of ideas, man who knew it would be this hard

I'm trying not to steal from the first board

[stark needle]

[hoary lion]

parallel universe emoji found

[stark needle]

ye

[amber fractal]

Are you sure it isn't a future emoji for when the mind virus spreads?

[stark needle]

no it is a parallel universe emoji

parallel universe where @sage crag disagrees with everyone

❌

[tight tinsel]

theres the first list i posted somewhere in this chat

idk if that would be helpful but its an option

[amber fractal]

I should have checked through that list, a lot of them made it into the previous so I'll see what is left

Image spotted

[sage crag]

✅

[amber fractal]

@sage crag thoughts on top right bingo spot

[vivid tulip]

On today's episode of "APL enthusiast loses his goddamn mind trying to learn C#,"

"Oh hey, this assignment logic works the same way in APL! Maybe my skills can transfer over!"

"Surely this same assignment logic extends to arrays, too, like it does in APL..."

[amber fractal]

3 spaces left

[tender river]

thats references for you

int[] b = a isnt "create a new array with the same contents as a", its "create a second reference to a"

[vivid tulip]

Which makes me wonder why int b = a doesn't operate on the same rationale

[tender river]

because a single value cell can either hold a small primitive type or a reference

the fact it can hold primitive types is an optimization but an ubiquitous one, typically oop languages also have something like Integer x = new Integer(5); if you do want integer references

[vivid tulip]

Is there some kind of hard-and-fast rule I can use to figure out what's a value type and what's a reference type?

The fact that tuples appear to have gone from the latter to the former (or now exist as both) makes me suspect the answer is "no"...

[tender river]

integers, booleans, floats, chars are value types

tuples and structs (as opposed to classes) are value types

oh enums are value types too

[vivid tulip]

From what I gather, System.Tuple is a reference type, while System.ValueTuple is a value type

[amber fractal]

My general rule has been, clone if it is a non collection, reference if it is a collection. For more specifics follow chayleaf's advice.

I will say mine is imperfect but it is a decent starting point for copy/clone or reference

[tender river]

you can also think of it as "immutable = value type, mutable = reference type", existing integers dont change when you + something to them, new integers get created instead

but this is kinda sidestepping the question

[vivid tulip]

Yeah, that's how I typically imagine it—I'm just a little overwhelmed by the existence of both

I'm used to a language where practically all data is treated as immutable

so it's a learning experience to figure out which datatypes in C# are mutable versus immutable, and it makes me nervous that assigning a given variable might reassign another, unmentioned value elsewhere

[tender river]

theres rust which has mutability but references are explicit, i assume you want to learn c# in particular though

[vivid tulip]

particularly if I'm dealing with a new datatype I haven't seen before, like decimal or var

[tender river]

var isnt a data type it just tells the compiler to automatically infer the type

[vivid tulip]

Yeah, mostly because Dyalog APL apparently borrows its OOP syntax mostly from C#, from what I gather

so if I ever want to learn that element of the language, it seems like I'd have my best luck learning C#'s syntax, especially with regard to include versus using etc.

which, if I remember right C# only includes one of those two...

but there's this part of my brain that still remembers some early lessons I once took in C++, which had both—though I never learned what exactly the difference was

[tender river]

include basically copy pastes code, while using makes stuff from a namespace available without qualified access

("qualified" here doesnt mean permissions or whatever it just means that if you do using namespace std; you can type string instead of std::string)

[vivid tulip]

Aha—that would've been handy to know back when I was trying to figure out which C++ methods belonged to which libraries

[tender river]

and now theres also something like using my_int = int; to create a type alias for int

[tender river]

its best to just use an LSP

[vivid tulip]

I don't even know if that was a (standardized) thing when I tried to learn C++ something like a decade ago

[sage crag]

its already checkmarked

new checkmark every hour

[vivid tulip]

The main thing I remember was the long compile times, and my comprehension falling off a cliff somewhere around when we started covering arrays

[tender river]

yeah lsp is a relatively recent thing

[vivid tulip]

...and then like ten years later I discovered APL, which basically does all the stuff with arrays I never understood why C++ couldn't do

like add identically-sized arrays together directly, or add a single value element-wise to each element of an array, each without explicit looping

[sage crag]

seems like an easy way to convince yourself a program is O(n) when its actually O(n²)

[ruby timber]

Real

Nobody's guaranteeing it doesn't loop under the hood

(at least I assume)

[sage crag]

it has to, even if it uses simd for vector operations

[vivid tulip]

Eh, some functions loop under the hood, others are parallelized thanks to decades of interpreter optimizations

At any rate, it works damn well for prototyping or thinking about how to solve a problem overall

[rare bramble]

I mean you can do that with most array libraries

[vivid tulip]

Which, yeah, APL is basically if an array library (and math library) were the entire language

Like, the logical extreme of an array library

Strings = character arrays

[sage crag]

i would rather use rust and rayon, and just arr.par_iter_mut().for_each(|&mut x| x += 1)

[amber fractal]

New bingo, finally!

[tender river]

the problem is this is very arbitrary and for small arrays you wont even gain performance, apl has lead to research into how to do stuff like what without programmer annotations and can be super performant (see for example https://scholarworks.iu.edu/iuswrrest/api/core/bitstreams/dcbd5240-8454-4533-bc0c-ac3ee7628b8e/content)

[rigid snow]

free space

[tender river]

(also arrays in apl are N-dimensional)

[amber fractal]

[vivid tulip]

This right here makes programming in it kind of surreal for a few reasons:

1. Most functions in the language are also N-dimensional, with the "scalar functions" especially working the same way on single values as they do on 15-dimensional arrays
2. Arrays in APL seem to be treated more "spatially" than they are in several languages, with (for example) a 4D array index listing its coordinates specifically in order of volume, then plane, then row, then column
3. Following from point 3, several functions (e.g., transpose and selection functions) start to feel almost "origami-like" when you mentally picture how the data is being manipulated

[stark needle]

Chat do you want to see the biggest clown in existence

Google employee ai generated response on Huggingface

there's no way

😭😭

[ruby timber]

[stark needle]

The person did a valid question cause the addition on the google blog is objectively wrong

256000+1024+128 is NOT 257216

😭

It's 257152

[loud thicket]

Reminds me of LVQ

A classic

Before machine learning was trendy

[cosmic sphinx]

LOL

[safe path]