rocky karma
https://moxfield.com/decks/2MAZ9Pu9PkGIdxJiPkH_XA
I've been sitting on this precon since it released but never could use it. At first I used just the Orzhov cards and ran Raine as a commander but never used it. I rarely run Esper but I see how cool Greyfax is and wanna build her. Needing cuts and potential suggestions
hearty dome
arent you building too many decks at once 😅 but i guess you have alredy did the cut
i thought of [[prop room]] and [[drumbellower]]
distant willowBOT
or one mana of that creature's color.)Prop Room 
Enchantment — Room
Untap each creature you control during each other player's untap step.
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)
hearty dome
there is a card that i always have trouble fitting into decks [[inspired statuary]]
distant willowBOT
Artifact
Nonartifact spells you cast have improvise. (Your artifacts can help cast those spells. Each artifact you tap after you're done activating mana abilities pays for .)
Ghirapur's most celebrated inventors have been immortalized in clockwork.
hearty dome
small chance this deck can make use of it in place of a mana rock
and i would remove a black/blue source for it
[[$the golden throne]] looks fun
distant willowBOT
hearty dome
so pricey >.<
in here i am not sure how much synergy it has, but at worst its a sac outlet [[thran dynamo]]
distant willowBOT
Artifact
: Add 
.
Urza's metathran children were conceived, birthed, and nurtured by an integrated system of machines.
hearty dome
as long as you have sac fodder, there are really no down side
actually its closer to [[gilded lotus]] with coloured mana
distant willowBOT
Artifact
: Add three mana of any one color.
Over such beauty, wars are fought. With such power, wars are won.
hearty dome
i want one but i dont want to pay like $10 🤮
instead, just got to get the whole precon
rocky karma
arent you building too many decks at once 😅 but i guess you have alredy did th...
I already have the decks made its more perfecting them. But I'm always brewing
rocky karma
~~instead, just got to get the whole precon~~
It has NUTS cards like [[Celestine living]] and [[sister hospital]]
rocky karma
And some vehicles that are busted
hearty dome
It has NUTS cards like [[Celestine living]] and [[sister hospital]]
as a non-white + jank player , those pricey cards dont excite me
vehicles are a bit niche because they are busted in the right deck
rocky karma
I only use the sister in Mt terra jank deck
hearty dome
so they are not univerally played even though they are colourless
[[$sister hositaller]]
distant willowBOT
hearty dome
i remember [[$celestine the living saint]] is even worse
distant willowBOT
hearty dome
pretty nut indeed 🤮
if anything i think i want the demon grixis precon more
[[$blood thirster]] i want reprint
distant willowBOT
rocky karma
if anything i think i want the demon grixis precon more
Honestly same it looks fun for a grixis deck
ember pasture
Add: At least 5 more lands. Your deck doesnt have enough mana to consistently play out its curve and your deck curve seems on the heavier side. 42 lands is reasonable for a list like yours
Cut: Deny the Witch, Entrapment Manuever, Mortify, Path to Exile, Commanders Sphere, Officious Interrogation, Shimmer Dragon, Mind Stone, Five Hundred Year Diary
distant willowBOT
rocky karma
Cut: Deny the Witch, Entrapment Manuever, Mortify, Path to Exile, Commander...
Most were from the sideboard not the list, and I am not adding 40+ lands for a non landfall deck...i still csnt tell if this is a meme or not
ember pasture
I would recommend reading on the math about land counts
40+ is needed to consistently hit 4 lands by turn 4
somethign most casual EDH decks want to do
42 is technically the optimal number, but 40 is what i would consider the minimum
hearty dome
i guess that explains a lot why you talk like this
the article* disregarded many things
some of which would be obvious to experienced players after some amount of testing
there are "down times" in commander where a player will basically be "doing nothing" with the mana; there are decks that only cares about playing lands, but most decks wants to/need to set up their board for a quicker game plan to be online
to make the math simpler, it would actually be roughly "every two ramp piece count toward 1 land card / land drop"
so a deck with 35 lands and 8 ramp cards is roughly 35+4 = 39, lower than the "42- lands optimal curve" with that math
essentially, a 100 card deck - commander - 0.5 x ramp is actually like 90 ish cards
i have ran as many as 55 lands with a land fall deck in the past, but it is essentially a B3/ almost B4 power level that abuse landfall triggers. a regular land matters deck with 45 lands is a lot, non land fall decks really dont need to have 40+ lands
going around telling everyone they need 40+ lands will decrease your creditability and others will preceive you as trolling
ember pasture
there are "down times" in commander where a player will basically be "doing noth...
If there are downtimes when your deck is doing nothing with its mana, it either means that you made a mistake in building your deck or you misplayed at some point in the game to leave yourself hellbent and dont have a commander that can take advantage of a large mana pool. The best way to quickl;y set up your gameplan and do so resiliently is to have a large number of lands. Mana flood punishes you in the late game more than it does in the early game. You can mulligan flooded hands without a high risk of getting a mana screwed hand because your more likely to get a hand with an acceptable number of lands.
Counting ramp as land drops is a terrible idea. Ramp is the worst way to get yourself out of a mana screw as you cannot do anything after you play it, where as a land drop would allow you a reasonable play that turn, giving you better tempo.
Having 35 lands and 10 ramp would not be equivalent ot having 40 lands. It would be much weaker and would lead to more games where you awkwardly have to spend your turn 4 or 5 playing a ramp spell instead of playing a 5 drop.
The one criticism I have about that guys article is that it is too lenient in what it considers mana screw. It defines mana screw as missing two or more land drops by turn 5 or after 12 draws. Where I would argue that missing any land drops in that time period to be very bad.
40 lands is equivalent to a 24 land in a stadnard deck. And if you look at the most popular midrange and control decks in standard, they run 24+ lands, sometimes as many as 27. Even aggro decks run 24 lands with mono red aggro.
Low land counts in constructed have fallen out of favor, and they tend to be reserved for decks with unusual play patterns, think of a combo deck where half the deck is cantrips.
running less than 40 lands is a terrible idea for any standard midrange EDH deck, IE, the majority of casual decks
hearty dome
i suggest you try to read/listen more, you can go topublic chat and preach your ideals without forcing your opinions on others
ember pasture
I am a very experienced player, and have even placed in tournaments before. Dont try the whole "your not experienced" line on me. It doesnt matter anyway, the math backs up what I say.
hearty dome
because i dont think you have any ill intend or is trying to troll
yes, many people dont play enough lands in their deck
but you are ignoring many other factors
ember pasture
Even the people who think they play enough lands don't. That is the issue. 37-38 is too few for any typical midrange deck. thats the amount I play in my lurrus companion deck. Not a standard midrange deck.
You should be playing 40+ lands, even with a competent draw package.
And you dont have to just run 40 basics
there are tons of lands that provide utility and can function as spells when you have too many
With MDFCs, cycling lands, channel lands, the final fantasy lands, and many other raw utility lands, there is no reason to run less than 40.
hearty dome
i didnt mean to call you "unexperienced player" but for a lack of a better term, it was the easiest way i could have decribe the situation of blindlessly telling people to put more lands into a deck without paying attention to what a deck is doing
ember pasture
If your deck is doing anything that can be broadly defined as "average midrange EDH play," your deck should have at least 40 lands in it.
hearty dome
i was refering to players who tested their decks countless times, trying to figure out what to put in, what to play in their deck
if i see a deck that looks weaker, i am not going to go out of my way to tell them they build their deck wrong because i have a different view
ember pasture
Play testing often doesnt give youi a large enough sample to truly figure out if sometyhing is good unless it is an extreme outlier.
hearty dome
and completely depreciate their time and effort put into it
ember pasture
There are things where you would want to trust the math on statistically rather than playing a deck 10 times and concluding it doesnt flood.
or get mana screwed
That sample is simply too small to draw that conclusion
desert tapir
38 seems fine for this list, 5 pieces of 2 cmc or less ramp and their curve is mostly 3-4 drops
ember pasture
even a sample of like 100 wouldnt be enough to see if your getting mana screwed or flooded too often
hearty dome
if you want to argue about land count, i suggest doing it in the public channel, and try to have conversation there as you gather opinions from others
ember pasture
People typically run simulations or calculate exactp robabiltiies using preset definitions to accurately determine whether a land count is too high and too low
and the people who have done that consistently show that peoples land counts are too low, even 40 is on the low side based on these models
desert tapir
https://aetherhub.com/Apps/HyperGeometric
I mean you hit 4 lands in 3/4 games assuming you don't mulligan or draw rocks
ember pasture
3/4 games means 25% of games you dont
hearty dome
Counting ramp as land drops is a terrible idea. Ramp is the worst way to get you...
i used the " " because its not an actual land count, but that would be mb on the bad phrasing
desert tapir
Mb 68%
and this is excluding mulligans rocks and cantrips
With mulligans (if you have a more accurate way of doing it lmk)
ember pasture
The problem here is that now you have to mulligan to get a functional hand just because you dont run enough lands
hearty dome
Having 35 lands and 10 ramp would not be equivalent ot having 40 lands. It would...
those are probably 2 drop mana rocks, and many decks are doing things starting turn 3, by turn 5, they are trying to play two 3 drop spells
desert tapir
I mean I mulligan in like 40% of hands
ember pasture
id rather being mulling to get a strong hand and not have to worry about getting mana screwed
desert tapir
That free mulligan is great
hearty dome
i think my biggest problem with this land thing isnt the count but actually where it basically ignore how many turns you are getting per game
ember pasture
Yea, id rather use the free mull to mull away trash than to have to throw a hand away cuz it only had 2 lands
ember pasture
If we assume bracket 3, then its at least 7 in a typical game
hearty dome
with 7 lands drops back to back, some games either dont last enough turns, or having it curve to 5 mana turn 5 , 6 mana turn 6 etc is too slow
ember pasture
the thing is you wont notice the increased risk of mana screw in a few goldfishes
going from 38 to the absolute minimum of 40 would take 100+ games to notice, prob higher
but the impact is absolutely there
for a lot of decks, you'd want more than 40
hearty dome
B3 at my LGS rarely makes it to T7 😅
desert tapir
+2 lands gives u like 4 percentage
ember pasture
40 is what I would consider the acceptable amount for a fast midrange deck
a slower deck would want more
hearty dome
if it does, then someone is drawing 15+ cards and threating for a win
ember pasture
all the more reason why missing a land drop is devestating
hearty dome
and the person drawing over 5 cards is basically guarantee that land draw
thats the other thing the article ignores
the rate of card draws
hearty dome
is it always once per turn cycle
ember pasture
at least consistently
My logic is if your cantripping hoping to get a land in the early game instead of developing game winning threats, you made a mistake
hearty dome
aggro deck, how many lands in the 99
ember pasture
atleast 40 tbh
only time id go below 40 is for fast combo decks or weird decks
In standard and modern, the typical aggro deck has 23-24 lands in it
its only the strange aggro decks with like a curve capping out at 2 that have less, or the combo decks
hearty dome
Do you have your own examples i will chat in #1028377518878761111 or #commander
ember pasture
posted it
desert tapir
Standard also has no free mulligans
And its very rare to devote more than 4+ slots to ramp whereas proportionately in commander most decks have a little less of them to be a tenth of ramp
hearty dome
i almost never have less than 12 ramp 😅
i be casting 11 drop in a turn, so i need every treasure i can find on my hand
if i only play lands, i will never get to my mana curve
rocky karma
So I decided to completely redo the deck, AND made it b3....https://moxfield.com/decks/2o5EluWdvkG9JU42UecHSA
hearty dome
cost seems a bit on the higher side from testing but as a control deck i think its fine?
[[through investigation]]
distant willowBOT
Enchantment
Whenever you attack, investigate. (Create a Clue token. It's an artifact with ", Sacrifice this token: Draw a card.")
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, venture into the dungeon. (Enter the first room or advance to the next room.)
hearty dome
conditional triggers but i am sure the clue + dungeon makes up for it
[[primaris chaplain]] seems off theme?
distant willowBOT
hearty dome
can cut to make room for more things
or lowering the curve
[[flood hound]]... meh just a weaker card, but it is on theme
distant willowBOT
Creature — Elemental Dog
, : Investigate. (Create a Clue token. It's an artifact with ", Sacrifice this token: Draw a card.")
The thief doubled back twice, doused herself with perfume, crossed the ocean, and still woke up with her pursuer close on her heels.
1/2
hearty dome
that art looks nice even with the sketch
[[workshop elders]] now that looks like something i would cut
distant willowBOT
hearty dome
the rate at 7 mana is pretty bad
potentially a win con but combat aggro in a control theme
i can do with [[Toby, friend]]
distant willowBOT
distant willowBOT
Land
This land enters tapped.
: Add or 
.
, : Investigate. (Create a Clue token. It's an artifact with ", Sacrifice this token: Draw a card.")
hearty dome
i would rather sac two clues for card draw
than to create a new one
didnt notice too many colourless cards that trigger [[ugin eye of the storms]]
distant willowBOT
Legendary Planeswalker — Ugin
When you cast this spell, exile up to one target permanent that's one or more colors.
Whenever you cast a colorless spell, exile up to one target permanent that's one or more colors.
+2: You gain 3 life and draw a card.
0: Add .
−11: Search your library for any number of colorless nonland cards, exile them, then shuffle. Until end of turn, you may cast those cards without paying their mana costs.
Loyalty: 7
hearty dome
going to do some counting
17 + ugin itself
but the power is there
i wouldnt buy that if i dont own one 💸 😅
rocky karma
[[workshop elders]] now that looks like something i would cut
The idea is spam out clues and animate them abd kill people with clues
That's the main idea
hearty dome
it animate but the cost is so bad as a card
4 counters on 1 creature is just not a good reanimate [[rise and shine]] cost 2, not 7
distant willowBOT
Sorcery
Target noncreature artifact you control becomes a 0/0 artifact creature. Put four +1/+1 counters on each artifact that became a creature this way.
Overload 
(You may cast this spell for its overload cost. If you do, change "target" in its text to "each.")
hearty dome
elders is always 7, if the flying doesnt set up a alpha strike, its mostly a dead card
hearty dome
i will try to be a [[persuasive interrgator]] for a better win con, sorry if thats already in there because i looked at too many decks to remember which is which
distant willowBOT
Creature — Gorgon Detective
When this creature enters, investigate. (Create a Clue token. It's an artifact with ", Sacrifice this token: Draw a card.")
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, target opponent gets two poison counters. (A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.)
5/6
