#REVERSED! (EDH) Assistance!

1 messages · Page 22 of 1

deft belfry
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so its like a mini combo assembled engine

fickle edge
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This is making me want to get back to my notion of building toph as a modular commander

deft belfry
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sylvan scrying to tutor, life from the loam.... closer to tutor than ramp

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mossborn really good add btw

wicked gust
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So...another dumb idea lol. What else is Sephiroth called? The One Winged Angel...lol

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Boros Sephiroth angel tribal

deft belfry
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oh not the black one

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i mean giada do give you all the +1 counter so angel kinda has the white +1 anthem theme to it

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[[herald of war]]

shrewd zealotBOT
final spade
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i think imma talk out desert warfare

fickle edge
deft belfry
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make sure you give them that 10/10 hammer so they cant fly with one wing XD

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i have never drew [[!colossal hammer]] once in my cloud precon

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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🥲

fickle edge
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Putting that one in my Elden ring theme deck

deft belfry
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room temperature take, precon need more theme tutors so you can actually play the fun cards you want to play

wicked gust
shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/fic/92/sephiroth-fallen-hero

Sephiroth, Fallen Hero <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manar:292901508796645397><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Legendary Creature — Human Avatar Soldier
Jenova Cells — Whenever Sephiroth attacks, you may put a cell counter on target creature. Until end of turn, each modified creature you control has base power and toughness 7/5. (Equipment, Auras you control, and counters are modifications.)
The Reunion — mana3, Sacrifice a modified creature: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
7/5

deft belfry
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i only really care about the sacrifice part and then i realized

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i dont find enough interesting boros things to do with the deck

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so i scrapped it before i started my

wicked gust
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But mine isn't interesting?

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The one I been working on

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I added a land and 2 cards so also needing 3 cuts

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[[cathar crusade]] [[Valkyrie call]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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not for my own satisfictory to play with. your deck works but because its boros at the end of the day

wicked gust
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Oof

deft belfry
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its not a completely new idea to do boros equipment / voltron ish etc

wicked gust
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Than you would love my take on boros equipment [[cap sunborn]]

shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/lci/226/caparocti-sunborn

Caparocti Sunborn <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manar:292901508796645397><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Legendary Creature — Human Soldier
Whenever Caparocti Sunborn attacks, you may tap two untapped artifacts and/or creatures you control. If you do, discover 3. (Exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card with mana value 3 or less. Cast it without paying its mana cost or put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom in a random order.)
4/4

deft belfry
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i neded more lorehold support from future sets

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i loved the lorehold thing that makes artifact land tokens

wicked gust
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The new lorehold precon maybe my new phoenix tribal deck

wicked gust
deft belfry
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you did show caparocti before,

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basically i need to find the perfect deck to use stuff like [[blood axe]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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before i am willing to get all those generic equipment cards

wicked gust
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I mean sunborn is perfect for that

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Could do a discovery tribal thing too

deft belfry
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otherwise they all feel like a [[lightning army of one]] i swing i do damage, i run out of cards really quick deck

shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/fin/233/lightning-army-of-one

Lightning, Army of One <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manar:292901508796645397><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Legendary Creature — Human Soldier
First strike, trample, lifelink
Stagger — Whenever Lightning deals combat damage to a player, until your next turn, if a source would deal damage to that player or a permanent that player controls, it deals double that damage instead.
"Lightning. It flashes bright, then fades away. It can't protect. It only destroys."
3/2

deft belfry
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idk much about the character in the game but i heard it was a generic and somewhat boring character because ''being too strong'' was kinda the entire character

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i want more depth or flexible ways to build a deck

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not the "take 30-40 of this card type and ram it in there" too automatically self-built

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not against anyone who find that interesting to build, but i will get bored with a consistent game plan with every deck

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my first 3+ years of commander is just dying to flying angels

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not even dragons, just angels

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not even demons, its ALL ANGELS

final spade
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ok @deft belfry i think am finished with tagging everything

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please review

deft belfry
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nice you added scute swarm b4 i mentioned it

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[[settle the wreckage]] any chance of using this on your? XD

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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yourself*

final spade
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just a checky board wipe

deft belfry
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fair enuf

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sylan scrying to tutor, out of ramp, may as well put life from the loam along

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overall i like the changes, can cut some red mana source for white

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if you have 4 lands, i would probably want about 2 green source, 1 white, and 1 red out of those 4 on average

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rn red is like twice as much as white

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even if i end up with all green source, that side can usually fix the colour

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idk if [[uzra bauble]] do too much but you can goldfish and test it out

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “uzra bauble”

deft belfry
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🤦 close enough

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[[earthbendin ascension]]

shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/tla/175/earthbender-ascension

Earthbender Ascension <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manag:292901508654301185>

Enchantment
When this enchantment enters, earthbend 2. Then search your library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle.
Landfall — Whenever a land you control enters, put a quest counter on this enchantment. When you do, if it has four or more quest counters on it, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature you control. It gains trample until end of turn.

deft belfry
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better than a single harrow imo

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well, unless you need the two mana untapped

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side-grade, with white availible , there will always be stronger options than [[chaos warp]] especially if you dont plan on picking off a land

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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removal or protection piece can go here, even the surprised non blue counterspell sort of thing

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RIP sad golem got cut

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i get that the curve at 4 is awkward although the synergy for getting a land along withitself being a land = double landfall

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with double etb that would then be 3x lands entering, 1 at a time, for a total of 6 landfall triggers

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as long as there are enough basics to search

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i cannot guarantee its going to be worth it, because its like playing [[mycosynth laatice]] for that 100% artifact but someone else drops the unexpected stax Karn

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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or vadalblast etc

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the risk is lowkey much higher than the reward

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the smart option is usually something like a tibalt trickery or interaction with anything spel

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[[vesuva]] extra desert

shrewd zealotBOT
fickle edge
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The trick to mycosynth lattice is you’re the one with vandalblast

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Or from the TMNT set I wanna try out [[broadcast takeover]] with it

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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was pointing out that the relation of having extra value from sad golem, which got cut 😢

fickle edge
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Sad robots on the chopping block

deft belfry
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if casting sad golem is worth 3 lands with Toph metal bender

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would you cut it

fickle edge
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It does feel like a lot of extra value

deft belfry
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but the likelihood of casting both in one turn is like never

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and do need double landfall on board for it to be there

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doing anything

fickle edge
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Aye

deft belfry
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my dream with sad golem is [[echo of eternity]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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8 triggers

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EIGHT TRIGGERS!!!

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given i can sac all the golems

fickle edge
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Plus all the card draw

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What a nice time for everyone

deft belfry
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4 from ramp 4 from draw

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but having a 4 drop ramp into a 6 drop is much more natural for the tempo and float of the game

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not the other way around

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and if you cast both in one turn for 10 mana, you are just skipping a turn

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so, fuck it and i am putting both in a deck

wicked gust
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So I found a few random packs of FF that I grabbed and opened, pulled this lil lady

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She seem interesting enough to build a commander deck?

deft belfry
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if you like mono colour probably

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because of its own she does nothing (can exile herself but no one wants that for 6 mana)

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its sort of that the creature part of [[!panharmonicon]] to it

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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and then the additional end step may give something? that i did not look much into

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with the flicker again from that ability

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so as long as you got non token creature to spam, best one probably always going to be [[anticausal vestiage]]

shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/eoe/1/anticausal-vestige

Anticausal Vestige <:mana6:292901508780130304>

Creature — Eldrazi
When this creature leaves the battlefield, draw a card, then you may put a permanent card with mana value less than or equal to the number of lands you control from your hand onto the battlefield tapped.
Warp mana4 (You may cast this card from your hand for its warp cost. Exile this creature at the beginning of the next end step, then you may cast it from exile on a later turn.)
7/5

deft belfry
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actually blue has some other broken effects

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so its going to be triple ETB for only 6 mana

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If you like VALUE, and you play for VALUE. She might be the commander for you

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I am not big into Value . Red throws their hand and hope its enough, if it runs out, thats kinda it.

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rough guess; midrange control deck; plays for mid-late game/ may not have much boardstate early on, boardwipe can help with keeping others behind, a few open mana to keep things under control, if tapped out the table might be smart enough to play around it. some low cost effect to accumulate value; mainly card draw, and wait for the right moment to drop Ysholta expecting no reaction to her out or have protection ready. Then find the thing that makes you feel good to win with

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the slower the game goes, the better for this type of deck

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[[unstopable plan]] was it

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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my avg deck doesnt play for instant speed, so double untap doesnt help me much. And i have failed with the [[horizon stone]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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which cares about lands more anyways

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[[agent of trechery]] isnt a card i like due to its overall play pattern and power, but for this its a perfect fit

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
little crater
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Hello people any chance of advice please?

deft belfry
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Have some warm milk, go to bed before 10

deft belfry
little crater
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🤣🤣

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You tried the counter intelligence deck?

deft belfry
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i didnt play it myself

little crater
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Played against it by chance ?

deft belfry
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know the haste tap proliferate one is popular

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i played against the station one from that precon

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i think its more about the game plan on what turn you want to deploy it

little crater
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Yeah so I have the pre con but i can feel it needs upgrading but not sure where to start tbh

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Ive built decks from scratch but never upgraded a pre con

deft belfry
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and differernt power level whenever you prefer to go near infinite or just some value boardstate or janky weirdness

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i can see it doing things with like saga for example

little crater
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Yeah i got ya

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Its just that its got the foundation to be a good ass deck its just a lil slow for me atm

deft belfry
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did you look up anything online, because precon commanders usually have lot of resorueces and content about them

little crater
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Ahhhhh legend i will do that

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I played against slivers earlier lol

deft belfry
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i can help with small things especially if something is odd

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ah rip

little crater
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Aha you'd think so

deft belfry
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if you are against the lorwyn -1 counters

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you would rekt them a new one

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i mean its slivers so its always rip

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unless you wipe them

little crater
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It wasnt if im honest

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I had a dragon deck and it was okay it worked in my favour

deft belfry
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oh i thought you were the proliferate precon

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if you are flying dragons then you are probably the problem at the table XD

little crater
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I have multiple decks

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I need to upgrade the proliferation deck

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Ive got dragons

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Im working on a mono red dragon deck built around dracogensis

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Angel deck on the way to being built and some goblin/tribal deck

deft belfry
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yeah just misunderstood, thought you have precon up against slivers which is basically screaming "board wipe me til i cannot do anything"

little crater
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Yeah thats painful

deft belfry
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anyways if you want a quick look at your build i can give it a glance when i got time, otherwise make small comfortable changes to make it run smoother

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maybe even [[basri ket]] has a chance

shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/m21/7/basri-ket

Basri Ket <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Legendary Planeswalker — Basri
+1: Put a +1/+1 counter on up to one target creature. It gains indestructible until end of turn.
−2: Whenever one or more nontoken creatures attack this turn, create that many 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens that are tapped and attacking.
−6: You get an emblem with "At the beginning of combat on your turn, create a 1/1 white Soldier creature token, then put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control."
Loyalty: 3

deft belfry
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starting 3 is its biggest problem, but the emblem put counters on everything which can be a fun one

little crater
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Ill grab it out tomorrow and flick through

deft belfry
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k

storm fox
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Hi, i was thinking

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For ayara in b4, would it be a good option to maybe include some fast mana and/or Rituals to speed up the gameplan?

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Or would you say just hitting every land drop and playing every turn on curve to win on turn 5 is alright?

deft belfry
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kinda of a slippy slope imo, depends on match up and how fast to win, i dont think losing too much consistency is worth the risk of not being able to play the win con but you will have to pay extra attention to counters and interactions because it would completely shut down your game

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but hitting all land drops means doing nothing for a while which is also too slow so you may have to go turbo route

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so someone else trying to/threaten to win, and the removal is used on that piece instead of your Ayara, then you have the best chance of transforming and comboing off, etc

storm fox
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Rn i noticed that i rarely have nothing to do on turn 2 and onward, and often i do even have a turn 1 play in the games i played so far, guess that i like the consistency more than potentially going off on t4 instead of 5

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Tho i think i do want to include some more interaction as both protection and/or interruption

deft belfry
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yeah, B4 high power off my memory (the extremely few times i played in) required so much more interactions rather than trying to win

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because having two win cons in hand means you can either win on the first one or try to do it a second time if the first one foils, assume no one else wins before then

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while having one win con and interactive removal/protection cards allows you to wait for the proper timing

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when everyone* is low on cards and tapped out; even better if they already used their Dswat and Fierce guardianship.* Force of will is rarely a thing unless they are playing with a high budget and years of experiences and effort to back up their deck

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and there are also decks that just runs too many efficient spells so they dont even have enough cards to make up for some of those cost like another blue card in hand

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can also consider stax piece that dont affect your combo or [[conqueror flail]] as that stax protection

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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which ofc the channel lands gets around

storm fox
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I do agree with this

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You think sothera the supervoid is worth cutting, so far i feel like it might be too slow

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[[sothera the supervoid]]

shrewd zealotBOT
wicked gust
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bro the seph deck did SO well without the commander....

little crater
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Hello peeps

deft belfry
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are you planning on the mono blue cat girl deck

deft belfry
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perhaps it matters more against like a vojah or Jemir deck, assume you make more creatures than they do

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but one trample swing, if you dont have a sac outlet ready, you are dead anyways

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end of the day, gravepact is a token synergy piece that feels like a pet card but is oppressive against certain decks that feels 'unfair' in commander

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which is weird since commander is the format about playing the most pet cards, yet sometimes the unfair stuff is what may leads to unfun situations

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exile here is quite relevant though in defense of its utility

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it will basically dodge every sephiro and syr konrad death trigger

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so in the right match up, i can see it being worth it even in some case it is a dead card

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so worst case scenario, you dont cast it at all

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play it along with a boardwipe, steal a [[blightsteel colossal]] of sort and watch the owner suffers

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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off the top i dont remember what can combo when it enters on your end step

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which is one of the worse time to get a creature in play, but in this case kinda free

storm fox
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Feel like counter spells and targeted removal are what the deck most struggles with

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Would it then be better to add a bolt bend or a redirect lightning?

final spade
deft belfry
storm fox
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I'll add re lightning then instead of sothera

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Is there any other cheap interaction spells that i might have missed?

vagrant bolt
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Hey Monomon! I was wondering if you could take a quick look at my Syr Gwyn equipment deck. I built it not necessarily around voltron but rather trying to get value from a couple of equipped creatures. I also tried adding a strong sunforger package since gwyn can abuse sunforger particularly well so if you could let me know if i missed any good instants for that. Im also a little concerned about my avg mana value. Im thinking of adding some MV4 ramp like thran domino to help. Anyways id appreciate any input you may have! Thanks! https://moxfield.com/decks/huSnc3RlZ0qSVk-5MJfGqg

Moxfield
Syr Gwyn - Commander (Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale)

A Commander deck featuring Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale by threezy • View on Moxfield

deft belfry
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[[library of leng]][[leyline of anticipantion]][[tolarian wind]][[teferi timeless insight]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[change of fortune]] -> [[shattered perception]]/[[illuminate history]]+[[dark deal]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[chasm skulker]][[plan of the pyromancer]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[artist's talent]]

shrewd zealotBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/dsc/28/spiked-corridor-torture-pit

Spiked Corridor <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manar:292901508796645397>

Enchantment — Room
When you unlock this door, create three 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this token dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)

Torture Pit mana3manar
Enchantment — Room
If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, it deals that much damage plus 2 instead.
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)

deft belfry
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😐

deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

i got myself a cheap [[flare of duplication]] still waiting to try it

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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sometimes with nice things on the stack, a nearly free copy is very impactful

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if i am to design a "counterspell" outside of blue, i would want something like: "Only cast this spell if there are two or more spell on the stack, reverse the order all of them. Until end of turn, targets cannot be reselected. Exile this spell."

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but the idea of copy spell is really nice because its always able to put a spell on the TOP of the stack. And the trick is actually not holding priority if you predict some sort of [[double negative]] coming, so you can get ontop of it and deal with it accordingly

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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tapped-out surprise flare would be so satisfying

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because i play more at the lower bracket, i run very few instants that can interatct on the stack. in fact i just built the first every deck where i put in actual [[counterspell]] less than a month ago. i think it run about 5 counterspells in it; I got to [[delay]] my opponent's Ivy and he put it in exile

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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most of my creature removals are permanents so they have extra synergy with the rest of my deck or are just janks i wanted to play with

deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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because of the nature of sunforger being an equipment that need sorcery speed equip, and how it is often uses for interaction spells. the optional support package isnt actually the spells it can grab (some black-multi colour stuff works too)

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but actually the equipment supports like

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getting out your grand abolisher to stop spells, and leonin shikari to equip multiple times per round or even on top of the stack which is insane for 0 equip cost

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which basically turn the commander into a mini combo engine

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i dont have much experience playing with/against [[silence]] and idk how good it works in B3

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[imperial recruiter]] mightbe a good tutor

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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if you ignore price tag there s also the Cloud that can search equipment etb

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[[sunforger]]if for any reason you dont have the commander with this equiped, its floor is much lower than your average game

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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especially since you have basically no 4 cmc instants in the deck

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so its not about how good of a spell you can grap from it but rather, whats the best spell for that scenario, [[wild ricochet]] is a fun one i have seen, but high ceiling and low floor especially if you end up drawing it. there are no way of getting rid of it in hand if the deck doesnt run things like [[big score]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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and then there is always the element of surprise if your table cant predict what instant you can grab AND chain more instants on top of that for the low cost of manarmanaw

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while it cant be infinite mana, if it is a [[coveted jewel]] + [[burst of energy]] that turning 2 mana detach into 6 new mana

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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hmmmmmm if you untap mistveil plains... can that be infinite, no you will still go down in mana

final spade
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Sorry I noticed this

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Also just wanted to keep this bracket 3

deft belfry
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It alright, i was lowkey passive aggresive XD

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oh, Not 2

final spade
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Yea 3

deft belfry
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the thing i am missing is rather: Whats the game plan or first couple turns planned out to be. and what comes after playing bunch of spells with max value

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so just shwoing me a deck without any context is like "Heres a thing, do what you want, judge and criticize"

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personally i would do lot of 3 drop mana rock and wait for untap

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because i dont find the lack of utility from free mana rock doing all that much mana0manat : Add mana1

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and if the curve of the deck is low, the payoff is also on the lower end

final spade
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This is mainly just supposed to be discard for value and then eventually burn the table as I wheel

deft belfry
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can increase mana value for stronger game ending effect

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so its like a hidden nekusar deck

final spade
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I tried a reanimator strategy, but it felt a bit slow

deft belfry
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so hidden he isnt even in there XD

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pulls out secret commander from outside of the game

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[[psychosis crawler]] this thing

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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i dont like playing it but i know more people that like it more than i do

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in here its basically 3 mana so its pretty good, is there a way to flash it out [[quicken]] is sorcery spell only

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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because you have to play with mayhem, which timing restriction applies. its is just a hand size doubler mechanic for the most part

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card draw is all value but doesnt directly turn value into a win con

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discard is just an extention to that value; i cant really expect myself to draw nearly 40 cards and discard all for pure burn damage

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the game would have ended before 25 draws

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if you play the commander on the front side, and Howler put a bunch of +2 pump, that can also be unblockable lethal

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i like playing Howler but its not a very smooth deck I wanted, its hard to get that balance between good creatures and discards

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i think wheels decks tends to have a similar problem. nekusar as core, there are only so many [[windfall]] in the game so the deck is very slow when the user dont draw the right half of the deck

shrewd zealotBOT
storm fox
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Tho what line does breach even have in rakdos?

deft belfry
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is breach a GC? i kinda forgot about this pesudo ban list, havent really touched B3+ power for a few months

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if you have wheel spell and any ways to let you loop it without decking out, your table will get decked first

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happened to me about 5 years ago and i forgot to trigger my eldarzi shuffle grave into my deck effect so i actually couldnt lose

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i think he was trying to find the loop for a burn effect, maybe a storm spell

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i think you can basically mill any one creature into your grave

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then reanimate with ayara

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its too flexible, its every other spell in your deck like a tutor from grave

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i would just check for rakdos with breach in Cedh for reference in this case, and see what is already in the deck

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i dont follow any Cedh channels or online resources

final spade
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Hmmmm soo what is the problem

storm fox
deft belfry
storm fox
deft belfry
final spade
deft belfry
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fair for the deck, not in terms of my avg causal playing experience of abusing altar XD

storm fox
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i also run a wheel of misfortune and a path of pyromancers

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nobody did ever anything wrong with altar, what are you talking about?

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:)

deft belfry
# final spade What

whats the reason behind posting* the deck, something isnt going right for you?

storm fox
#

once i have my library in my grave i can cast a living death

deft belfry
#

the same way you dont go to a doctor if you arent sick, i am sure you are aware of some cards not doing what you want or doing enough in the deck

storm fox
#

[[culling the weak]] worth it to add with that route to go mana positive but exiling the grave in the process?

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

love living death btw, although its scary when you also whale wheel mill others at the table

#

early in the morning brain cant keep up with words lol

storm fox
deft belfry
#

right, was thinking of fortunate

#

forunte

#

fortune

storm fox
#

otherwise, i think i would be abled to trample over them with haste from tannuk and multiple combats from whatever sources

#

wheel of fortune is too expensive unfortunatly

deft belfry
#

[[$opath of pyromancers]] off my memeory i never seen this in my game, stupid precon no reprint cards

shrewd zealotBOT
#

No card found for “opath of pyromancers”

deft belfry
#

[[$path of pyromancers]]

shrewd zealotBOT
final spade
#

Well it is fine

#

Probably don’t see a lot, cause it’s a plain chase card as well

deft belfry
#

yeah game has too much stuff going on

#

plainchase makes it even more to consider

#

increase game length by like 1/4 of time

storm fox
#

has a lot, but it's quite good, cuz if often is just cast a 5 mana wheel for just yourself and get 5 mana back to put into ayara

deft belfry
#

but its one of those that can be played without plainchase

#

i wish thats how my red deck plays XD i am usually down to 3 cards by the time i can do that 5 drop

storm fox
#

in that case it would still net 3 mana tho which is still pretty good

deft belfry
#

i want my storm count to be 5 spells per turn

storm fox
#

it really depends on the kind of deck you're running it in

deft belfry
#

just for the sack of it "I AM STORMING" ,and then "I PASS!"

#

everyone looks at me be like, "where is the storm spell"

storm fox
deft belfry
#

🥰 [[possibility storm]] ur welcome

shrewd zealotBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/34/possibility-storm

Possibility Storm <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manar:292901508796645397><:manar:292901508796645397>

Enchantment
Whenever a player casts a spell from their hand, that player exiles it, then exiles cards from the top of their library until they exile a card that shares a card type with it. That player may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then they put all cards exiled with this enchantment on the bottom of their library in a random order.

deft belfry
#

the infinite possibility of storming

storm fox
#

run it in my kykar enchantment list

#

let me just cast mystic remora and flip into omniscience

deft belfry
#

additional card text, make each player reread this card at least one additional time per turn. Increase turn timer by at least 20% increase frastrution by up to 40%

storm fox
#

you got one card wrong

deft belfry
#

i ran it with kykar with battles

storm fox
#

you gotta explain things to them 7 times as well upon cast

deft belfry
#

nah, read the card explains the card

#

i only read it no more than twice and explain up to 3 times

#

and i get to call them stupid anymore times beyond that 5th time

#

if i cast a "stax" artifact piece, its to bait out the counterspell player from holding it all game

#

since i know it is getting countered, i dont even have to finish resolving it

storm fox
deft belfry
#

"So.. this is bad for you, this is what it do, do you want to get rid of it, oh okay fine with me "

storm fox
deft belfry
#

[[culling the weak]] always add 4 right

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

the opposite of EVERYBODY LIVES

storm fox
#

everybody dies?

deft belfry
#

EVERYBODY GET THEIR HAND CHOPPED OFF

storm fox
#

dinner is ready here so i'll be back later

deft belfry
#

indiscriminating convicted criminal

#

11 AM here but i got to eat too

#

ttyl

deft belfry
#

[[thraben charm]] one more for sunforger

shrewd zealotBOT
final spade
deft belfry
#

@final spadei think for that green golbin deck, there is a chance you want to push it up to B3 and limit yourself how many turns you have to reach the winning turn

wicked gust
#

this is what i have so farm, needing 25 cards

wicked gust
deft belfry
#

will start with the cloud deck since it is ismplier and my wifi sux so much i cant open anything. Core is equipment so cloud is a good choice for draw engine, downside is that it starts at 5 mana , need to be equipped and swinging for the payoff, which is negligible as a condition. Depends on it important it is to hit 5 mana, NOT MISSING land drop is something you have to pay extra attention to. Now onto the main part and theme of the deck, living artifact or hero select

#

basically, when those were designed, it somewhat covers the downside of not having something to equip to so it comes with a token by default, but it also took away a small amount of its power from the ability because of that

#

[[warrior s sword]][[bird's bow]][[wooden cane]]all with no abilities [[mirran bardiche]] has flying vigilance. if those were below 4 drops, or have more impact, they would be much better.

shrewd zealotBOT
#

No card found for “bird's bow”

deft belfry
#

the worst part is that if the token is to go away, the base equip cost is so high its basically doing nothing on board

#

especially when green is in the mix, the amount of mana for a pump effect is so much less than what it takes to play an equip and equip onto something

#

i dont think you have to cut all that out, but it is a good place to consider how much mana is needed for the deck to run the way you want

#

and is it going to be a bunch of blockable creature turning side way at each opponent

#

this is where you can insert potential subthemes like "modified creatures" "+1 counters onto base power 0" "token power up" artifact synergy and or recycle for value type of cards

#

i like janks such as [[roar of resistenance ]] not just for its go wide support but also being able to "politic" with that reverse "ghostly prison"

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

which is probably not that great since you have access to white with some of the best anthems

#

when [[cloud ex solider]] comes out, should be able to draw at least 2 cards and not lose an attacker

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

and depends on the direction the deck ends up in, i can see a hyper focus on combat on your turn and end the game with [[voice of victory]] to avoid some sort of fog effect

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

wow i didnt even realize its mobilize 2 and not 1, it makes TWO tokens. everyone only pay attention to the grand abolisher line of text

#

anyways, how to make those 0/0 token matters is the challenge

#

also didnt do a basic count, idk if there are enough for kodama west tree triggers

#

i would skip playing cloud if i can get land ramp that way

#

but i wouldnt count annie joins up as ramp because idk when i would have that legendary creature on board and i dont expect cloud to always have 7 power

#

i probably missed something about the jobselect part or its just a add on RPG theme, as to why the equipment add a creature type, because far as i know it doesnt really matters in commander

#

there is that one avatar card that cares about non human creature types and give power equals to the number of types

deft belfry
#

[[diligent zookeeper]] cant search on my end

shrewd zealotBOT
jaunty cipher
#

How does this look in terms of being b3 appropriate? Ive left out [[prologue to phyresis]] and made it so that creature damage is the only way opponents can get poison counters

https://moxfield.com/decks/MZL32Humg0238McyQPHDfw

Moxfield
(📄) Kilo, Spawn of GLaDOS [B3 Infect] - Commander (Kilo, Apogee ...

A Commander deck featuring Kilo, Apogee Mind by Stulu the Purple • Paper deck with as many old Mirrodin/New Phyrexia foils as possible. Kilo explores space on Inspirit with an army of artifact crea...

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
# wicked gust https://moxfield.com/decks/Sq14kheZdUah0PilgnDz7w

so when i looked at it, there is a few thats hard to wrap my head around since they do things independent from everything else in the deck; and i dont see a clear game plan you want to work toward. cast trigger would be like a directly worse version of etb, or ability that straight up dont have etb/ltb or end phase trigger, which would also happens twice that turn

#

i see a fancy sticker sheet, but they dont have the glue to stick. or that one dead pixel on the screen that would stand out along side the rest

#

it isnt a bad place to start though because i am sure you got tons of cards you already own and dont have a deck for

#

i think you can play a high curve mono blue value control deck that overwhelm the table late game

#

maybe proliferate counters would turn small evasive creatures into massive +5/+5 beaters

deft belfry
#

blightsteel is meant to be a one shot so even that one may fail without a way to cheat it out

#

pretty pricey deck, do you own lot of cards already?

#

if it is proxy, then there are always upgrades like the better version of [[!darksteel plate]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

the high curve cards like darksteelforge + mycosynth lattice may have a hard time to hard cast with the overall mana in the deck?

#

would need one of those tolarian aca level of mana to pull off, basically what urza would do in this deck

#

so while i get that without prolgue to phyresis, you avoided an "unblockable" poison kill with infinite untap

#

it does make that poison win con a bit on the awkward side with infect in there

#

it would be like putting chandras ignition on a 1/1 to get that infect, which cost an extra card and insignificant payoff

#

which i guess isnt in the deck yet

#

if thats what you believe, as your primer has stated, then go along with it. "Fair" and "unfun" is always hard to judge due to different perspective and Bracket is not exactly a fool proof system

#

[[steeloverseer]] is such a power house in the deck that can work independantly from the commander. this is probably one of if not the best tap ability in the deck and has overall synergy with all the untapping artifact mechanic

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

i think finding more things that work with [[unwinding clock]] would be really nice in the deck

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

proliferate with +1 counters is basically the same thing as putting that counter on all your creatures, and since it comes with a tappable creature, its just so much more efficient with the rest of the deck

#

[[sai, master thopter]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

artifact synergy with rest of the deck, i would add that

#

might be able to find something that has portal reference to add to the theme of the deck

#

dont need to deny the potential of a combo-ie deck

#

just noticed [[hexing squeicher]] in there, idk how often this helps you. Its kinda a meta game and match up thing that does nothing against randos

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

even if it a fire whip on your commander, it can dish out lot of repeatable damage

#

and somewhat become a mini [[walking ballista]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

in the deck

jaunty cipher
# deft belfry pretty pricey deck, do you own lot of cards already?

Yea I own all but 3-4 of the cards (minus the true duals), and was trying to make a deck out of as many of the mirrordin/scars of mirrordin blocks as possible. I was already thinking about cutting the lattice for lack of synergy, you confirmed it for me 😁.

I had temporarily cut [[chandras ignition]] and [[pain for all]] to get a look at the deck without, I put them back in. what do you think of [[dragon throne of tarkir]] here?

any cards you specifically had in mind to synergize with unwinding clock?

shrewd zealotBOT
jaunty cipher
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

i dont look toward big mana effect here just because the curve seems to be very low

deft belfry
#

more synergy with the station one than going up 1 counter per permanent at a time

#

can run deplation lands if like extra mana (but with risk) and i. guess storage lands just sucks too much to even consider

hard saddle
deft belfry
#

[[tiny bones baule burg]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

any experience with discard decks in commander?

#

beside mono black

hard saddle
deft belfry
#

i mewan discard opponent lol

hard saddle
hard saddle
#

I've played this deck a few times and struggled to maintain pressure and hands empty

deft belfry
#

the nature of discard (resources denial) and the limitation of how the mechanically normally doesnt benefit the user makes it hard to run it as the main focus

#

have you tried tagging categories such as ramp and draw just to see how much of those you have the deck

#

based on highlight

#

17 sources has "draw" on it and

#

36 cards say discard

#

i dont think tyhe ramp and draw themselves have any major issues, although it might be better to use utility ramp over single colour ramp

#

the biggest thing is always going to be how discard can become your "draw" through tinybones

#

4 mana sorcery speed ability, is straight up awful. and i doubt you would ever want that, so tiny bones technically only has one line of text on it

#

Whenever an opponent/each opponent discard anything, you get to play those cards as if they are yours; thus turn opponent discard into value.

#

tinybones is directly a draw engine

#

that inverse loss ( from others) into gains (for you)

#

the problem is that when youa draw from other player's deck [[shared fate]] your "hand" is a mess

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

and no amount of card draw wins you the game if there isnt some form of [[psychosis crawler]] win con

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

Basically, this is a mono black value engine that lacks synergy because it uses other people's decks. And in multiplayer, it is easy to get hated for randomly confining people from playing their cards

#

also, when you are succesful at locking down a person at the table: then thats one less player to discard from; another player may get ahead, and that may not be you. It is a 2-for-0 for the opponent who wasnt impacted by it

#

those are some of the effect i see from multiplayer dynamic that is very different from 1vs1

#

[[megrim]] is always a card i dont like very much because its so hard to make use of it

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

in theory it should do the same thing as [[sheoldred apocalypse]], but because it is an extra step for that 2 damage for a do nothing card. i think it is actually a worse version of [[underworld dream]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

but the biggest problem i see is actually, not really too many cards that deals damage and turn discard into life loss. even with [[liliana's caress]] the more efficient version of it, that is still just very few cards doing that

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

[[monument to endurance]] one of the few pricey cards i like

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

it doesnt really care about discarding opponent but rather yourself, and up to 4 -12 times per round of turns

#

card draw is perhaps the most important mode, and the burn is important to close out a game. but how often are you able to use it 3-4 times per round?

#

it is not a cycling deck like [[raven man]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

[[asylum visitor]] i tried to make this work, i cant say i have much success with it

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

its ceiling is a 1 less mana, madess instant speed card advantage [[phyrexian arena]] on steroids

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

but the floor it is probably forcing you to go for a group hellbent deck that will draw the aggro and hate from the entire table

#

i think it is actually a [[night's whisper]] for hipster XD

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

tinybones is actually [[geth's grimoire]] in disguise; another discard theme card i love

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

so naturally, i want my opponent to have cards in hand, but not too many? maybe, and good cards to discard, so i can cast them

#

[[preverter of truth]][[howling mine]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

[[seizan perverter of truth]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

this one ^

#

i like [[polluted bond]] to deal with certain decks that spam lands and values

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

but thats just my preference, on predicting how the game would go and how i want it to pace

#

because regardless of what cards i get from the three other decks, i can still make use of my generic effects

#

i want generic removals, somewhat controlled and slow game, hitting all my land drops turn after turn

#

while the table runs out of resources after 20-40% of the library is gone

#

this info, is largely incorrect/misleading imo

#

your total mana value would be your own deck + opponents' cards you discarded

#

for what is worth, i would run all my favourite artifact ramp like [[thran dynamo]] etc

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

while it isnt card advantage, it does represents 3 lands worth of mana from a single card

#

even the worst (figuratively)3 dropmana rock [[worn power stone]] can be good here because you care about playing out that big mana turn and all the stached cards

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

i think [[shaku worn]] is the one i would want in this deck though

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

turns tinybones into mana1

#

note that i dont need coloured mana because tinybones fixes that. mindstone is just better than fellwar stone for that reason

#

personally i dont need swiftfoot boots but that one is generically enough to keep in case you got a good creature off someone else

#

when the commander cmc is so low, i can just let it die and recast it with tax

#

each recast is netting me one card where trying to put protection on it is losing one card

#

reusable is a bit better but still

#

oh yeah, no way do i want to play with charocoal diamond here, worse than power stone mentioned above

deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

have to help others first in order to help yourself with a hidden agenda of somewhat selfish primary objective

#

"what is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine" "if i am pleased i may consider to be benevolent"

hard saddle
#

Got around to reading your comments

#

My understanding is the best way to play tinybones would be to have discard secondary, and kinda run a false hugs strat primary?

hard saddle
deft belfry
#

mono black rankle you mean?

deft belfry
hard saddle
#

I already have sheoldred and scrawling crawler to get that pain going so I guess why not

hard saddle
deft belfry
#

worth a shot, and because the discard would be repeatable, you can make room in the deck by cutting bad discard outlets

#

the overload discard 2 sorcery is one that i like a lot but always forget the name

#

i think it fits tinybones slightly more than rankle though

#

thief is the most interesting aspect you cant get from rankle but a flying body with 3 symmetrical ability is just more impactful in general

#

thats like up to 12 abilityies across 4 players, in a way, kind of a lot

#

although the sacrifice one is the hardest to use in that case

#

[[rankle trister]] just in case i forgot something major

shrewd zealotBOT
#

No card found for “rankle trister”

deft belfry
#

XD the name

#

of the card

#

well, draw life loss, sac, discardall players

#

it can become a powerful lock although idk if thats the "fun" you want in B2 power

#

@blankki Xp are you typing an essay for me

hard saddle
#

By far the best feedback I've gotten

deft belfry
#

you are welcome, i hardly suggested any cards because i think you already got a bunch to decide

frank bolt
#

Hey, somehow im brewing yet another deck.... Wanna take a glance and give your opinion? So the game plan is ping ping ping, make imps that ping and play many asymmetrical boardwipes with [[Judith, Carnage Connoisseur]]'s first ability. First priority is to get Judith out, so a healthy ramp package included. Also lots of card draw to keep the spells slinging. I also tried to make it not so dependent on Judith being out all the time.

shrewd zealotBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/210/judith-carnage-connoisseur

Judith, Carnage Connoisseur <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manab:292901508872273920><:manar:292901508796645397>

Legendary Creature — Human Shaman
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, choose one —
• That spell gains deathtouch and lifelink.
• Create a 2/2 red Imp creature token with "When this token dies, it deals 2 damage to each opponent."
"I don't make my living hiding the truth, detective. I shout it from the stage."
3/4

frank bolt
deft belfry
#

for a second i thought that was [[rankle and torbran]] from the art

shrewd zealotBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/mom/252/rankle-and-torbran

Rankle and Torbran <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920><:manar:292901508796645397><:manar:292901508796645397>

Legendary Creature — Faerie Dwarf
Flying, first strike, haste
Whenever Rankle and Torbran deals combat damage to a player or battle, choose any number —
• Each player creates a Treasure token.
• Each player sacrifices a creature of their choice.
• If a source would deal damage to a player or battle this turn, it deals that much damage plus 2 instead.
3/4

frank bolt
#

similar color palette 😄

deft belfry
frank bolt
#

something in between i think

#

I actually need to go to bed, its quite late. Ill reply to you tomorrow. Thanks in advance as always 🙂

deft belfry
#

all gud i am planning for my local commander party night -deck i want to play with

#

last min brewing

hard saddle
#

...how do we feel about [[armageddon clock]]

shrewd zealotBOT
hard saddle
#

not sure about this one quite yet

#

but looks promising

deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

if only it is each upkeep, in todays commander game a 6 mana do nothing card, that will also hurt yourself symmetrically is really bad. maybe a decade ago it can be a playable jank

#

or some crazy themed [[clock of doom]] low power deck?

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

i forgot whats that silver border legend that cares about doom counters

#

it can destroy target opponent or something and that player lose the game

#

bit much single target discard maybe, but it does give you the exact card

#

so its [[praetor's grasp]] with extra steps i guess

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

so i guess thats fine

#

i dont see [[dark deal]]at all

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

[[sheoldred's edict]] isnt that great. if you consider the modes you can use

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

[[tresspasser's curse]] can think about this type of effect

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

its like predetermined blood artist

#

most games there are so many creatures on board that you can do a lot with those

#

and i would also play blood artist before [[ blood seeker]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

discard is like restrictive removal that only works on cards in hand. which will rush opponents to play out their key cards to avoid dicards

#

without blue, there are less things that can bounce but there are [[blood clock]] for example which most people will just take the life loss over losing tempo

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

in a discard focus deck, this can either force people to keep getting back something to hand, or having to replay them, or paying for it

#

it does affect you too but there should be enough reuseable things you want in your own deck

#

[[umilicus]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

same card different name

#

so those are some of the things you can do and they dont directly say 'discard' on them

#

to achieve the same effect as [[recoil]] in blue

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

instead of [[crystal shard]] you have access to [[erratic portal]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

again, can be used on yourself to reuse something, or basically force others to keep mana open or have to keep something in their hand against discard

#

i think last time i ran it in [[grothama, all devour]] because of the Ltb trigger

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

specifically in green so i can somewhat avoid the high cost of 5 mana

#

rather than card suggestion, i think this type of things give you an idea what you may need to get the game going

#

if your own deck is creature heavy, i would not go too hard on boardwipes that also hurt yourself

deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

crap wrong name everytime[[dual strike]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

copying your big score here let you avoid the discard cost so its 2 spells discard one to draw back 4

#

where if you only discard and draw would only give the same amount of cards you started with

#

or if the discarded card has madness or flashback to make up for the loss in cards

#

all the one damage deathtouch is kinda the gross side of judith and it creates two major problems

#

boardwipe tribal wannabe (which really get on people's nerves as it is like playing against stax) which will draww a lot of hate or turn judith into a kill on sight removal magnet

#

and then its not having enough of a win con if you dont make lot of attackers

#

or consistent source of burn

#

so it is nice that the focus is on card advantage to maintain a reasonable amount of cards in hand

#

the direction seems about right

#

the land count and missing land drop do seems kinda problematic

#

can fine tune later

frank bolt
frank bolt
shrewd zealotBOT
frank bolt
hard saddle
hard saddle
#

Dark Deal I need to add back in if I didn't include it

#

And we have punisher effects for forced draws

hard saddle
deft belfry
#

thats a interesting one, have yet to see it playsince it came out

deft belfry
#

never really thought of having it in any decks but here it looks good

deft belfry
hard saddle
#

I'll see how it plays out on moxfield (goldfishing) and take it to paper after if I like it

#

Also, we are NOT adding back [[mindslicer]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

i remember seeing blood seeker with the scarecrow thgat makes a lot of birds on opponent's side of the field, havent see it in too many decks

#

yeah perfectly fine wiuth that, death triggewr helbent is hard to control

#

gtg

frank bolt
#

i just realized that [[artist's talent]] couldnt be a better fit for Judith deck

shrewd zealotBOT
vagrant bolt
deft belfry
#

attempt 25, dang

#

i havent looked at a sidar list for a while (forgot what knights are in there) but i will see what needs cut when i got a moment

#

assume most of the best knight are auto includes

#

[[sidar jabari of zhalfir]] 4 mana esper knight matter attack trigger looting and reanimator

shrewd zealotBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/moc/5/sidar-jabari-of-zhalfir

Sidar Jabari of Zhalfir <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manau:292901508754702338><:manab:292901508872273920>

Legendary Creature — Human Knight
Eminence — Whenever you attack with one or more Knights, if Sidar Jabari is in the command zone or on the battlefield, draw a card, then discard a card.
Flying, first strike
Whenever Sidar Jabari deals combat damage to a player, return target Knight creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
4/3

vagrant bolt
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sidar was actually what got me into magic. my first precon was the calvary charge one and ive been working on the list ever since😅

vagrant bolt
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i got it to a 100 cards i think. i cut a plains, [[raise the palisade]], [[frantic search]], and [[faithful mending]] it kinda sucks i lost some of the discard synergies because i run into a problem of my graveyard getting too thin but i didnt want to cut draw engines instead. i feel bad going down a land also but i dont know any other cards to cut..

shrewd zealotBOT
vagrant bolt
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im also maybe thinking about putting in all the nazgul.. idk tho

vagrant bolt
sweet ember
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Hey @deft belfry, I'm back to ask for advice on my new deck! I've bought the Quantum Quandrix Precon, and wanted to ask for feedback on the current decklist I plan to upgrade it towards

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So far, while there may be other strategies, the one I gravitate towards is "Clone [[Adrix and Nev, Twincasters]] twice to double all tokens generated 11 times and flood the board"

shrewd zealotBOT
sweet ember
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So the deck is mostly made of clone effects and token generators mixed between steady generators and big burst generators, with a few exponential growth ones like Hollowhenge Overlord, Biowaste Ooze, and the everpresent Scute Swarm

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I've also added a fairly sizeable counterspell/removal package to deal with threats, and a few protection and utility spells here and there

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The Landbase may not be the best, but it focuses on providing the neede colors while entering untapped before anything else, with only the discount fetches like Evolving Wilds existing to take advantage of Landfall Triggers

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I'd appreciate your thoughts, since I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut to get it down to 100

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I'd also appreciate any suggestions on how to improve the deck as a whole

hard saddle
deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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but overall i dont think the deck itself has issues, perhaps there isnt enough synergy and lot of good stuff removal/protection that the (loot) engine is not able to churn through the deck fast enough

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[[mpnument to endurance]] the discard in here is kinda meh to trigger this one

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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there are also random bulk that just happens to have more versatility [[battle menu]] not saying it is better than a generic removal but it gives options

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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beyond just [[!get lost]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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did you cut out [[locthwain lancer]] and [[vodalian wave knight]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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if its about win con [[vitrtue of loyalty]] is a solid one

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “vitrtue of loyalty”

deft belfry
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[[virtue of loyalty]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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which i consider to be better than un[[worthy knight]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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as somewhat of a storm player i love effects like [[xerex strobe knight]] probably not as good but being able to grow the board on repeat

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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although i am really not that concern about the choice of knight because they are really not that different from having countless [[templar knight]] to fit the type

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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only the unblockable, anthem, and doublestrike really matters

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i did find one card i never knew about XD [[!syr cadian knight owl]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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for as long as there are enough knights synergy + draw engine, you just need that late game scaling piece to finish off the game

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again, i think they are unblockable anthem and doube strike; making sure damage is maximized and connects directly

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while i doubt you need nezgul, they are undeniablly the most broken knights and that last ring ability is also combat trigger

sweet ember
sweet ember
deft belfry
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counterspell count seems to be on the higher side and especially if [[!wizard retort]] is being played, it feels like you are running out of options (also it is just weaker than the avg quality) where as your protection spell [[!slip out the back]] has extra synergy with [[!vesuvan duplimancy]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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overrun and craterhoof alongside each other dont make all that much sense

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in terms of cloning, perhaps you can run "weaker" craterhoof and at a lower mana cost (cheaper$ too) to get a similar result. By no means craterhoof is a bad card, just generic

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potentially win more depends on boardstate, play it if you already own, want to play the card etc. i dont think in itself is worth in commander mainly because it sometimes takes the fun out of the game and thats just my opinion

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actual cardd that may need cut would be like [[!wayfarer bauble]] because you dont need that in green when it is worse than the avg rampant growth

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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when your basic count is low, i dont think i would want mana fixing tapped fetch like evolving wild, esp since there are all those duo/non basic lands

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i dont even know if you need crop rotation because how little utility comes from it, but it is definitely one of the most versatile and affordable GC

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you do care about that first initial green source so you can ramp with Utopia sprawl and wild growth ASAP

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Play Pattern: with a 4 drop commander, most of the time the turn you play, it is a "Do nothing" turn. it is less likely you have a token generator set up the same turn and benefit from its doubling right away. And this is where cards from the old days with "at the beginning of your upkeep, do token stuff" feels too slow

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[[!awakening zone]] is still good because it is good in general and doesnt overlap with commander or need commander to get its value

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[!from beyond]] technically do the same thing so its just worse unless you really want that extra effect

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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ofc if you keep both that and commander out, the long run it is nice. i am more for [[!skyshroud claim]] so i can guarantee my 6 open mana for the following turn without having commander on board

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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basically, just plan when you actually want to play commander and sandbag your threat, to get the most out of doubling

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land tokens might be your biggest friend

hard saddle
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I feel like I'm missing something that would help smooth out the play

deft belfry
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checked

hard saddle
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Yeah I don't wanna make anyone scroll too far up looking for it

deft belfry
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used to it since i made it 20k msg in one thread ¯_(ツ)_/¯

hard saddle
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My old list had cards that have long since been banned so now I'm looking to refine it a bit more

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Without breaking out the savings

deft belfry
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how much ramp in the deck

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6 mana pip matters, a lot

hard saddle
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Just the mana rocks, on and off with rituals since they're in red

deft belfry
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i dont think the mana bae supports what the deck wants to do so i would probably add ritual to surprise commander a tur or two ahead

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with the nature of combo, and B4 power level, i would expect niv to be killed on sight against experienced players

hard saddle
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I guess the funny monkey goes back in. I am usually not as big on rituals because if the commander gets removed (I know, counterspells and whatnot) because then we're further behind

deft belfry
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what funny monkey

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[[pirate pilferer]]? thats not ritual

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “pirate pilferer”

deft belfry
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may replace tapped land to speed up the tempo later in the game

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may not need ramp like [[gilded lotus]] but i am a sucker for this mana rock

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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what matters would be making room for [[boltwave]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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i dislike those [[abrade]] artifact removal stuff where i may just play [[unsubstanstiate]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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can target my own spell for counter war or just for extra spell for an additional cast trigger

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although if we are focusing on the draw go play style, because you run so many instant and interactions that doesnt really storm off on your tun

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you may cut out lot of those things so you can try to develop a board and win without waiting on a combo

hard saddle
shrewd zealotBOT
hard saddle
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Or ragavan but that is kinda too expensive to buy for paper for me atm

deft belfry
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meh i am thinking of more like one card +2 to 3 mana

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[[hightide]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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blue heavy deck btw

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just remeber the downside if you are up against other blue players

hard saddle
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Can't believe I forgot high tide

deft belfry
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if the deck plan is just to do draw burn loop, its hard to ignore all the Birgi effects in the game

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basically you have like 3-4 other storm kiln artist in the game

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that doesnt fix blue mana

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and depends on the direction you go, i can see [[chandra's incinarator]] having potential

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[teferi's time piece]], this one might be too high of a cost although its almost a hidden haymaker threat that will become a win con with draw synergy

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “teferi's time piece”

deft belfry
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[[teferi timeless insight]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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meh on [[by force]] which maybe a pet card of yours

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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i dont think i can justify hard casting [[nezahal primal tide]] in this deck. too much mana

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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n replace [[!thrill of possibility]] i want more mana sources to ramp out the big turn

shrewd zealotBOT
hard saddle
hard saddle
deft belfry
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i have never won a game where i played overloaded [[vadalblast]] whenver it was a precon or not

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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unless my deck cares about some sort of artifact hate [[disciple vault]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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it just doesnt help in my case that much; note that i am also not playing at B4 power level so that experience will differs

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if your "meta" or the gameyou are iin is full of mana rock and treasures

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then i feel like by force just doesnt target enough?

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to me, it is misworded as "destroy target opponent who is playing an artifact (token) only deck"

hard saddle
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So swap it for [[untimely malfunction]] ?

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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i like that

hard saddle
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I was looking for a slot for it, nice

deft belfry
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oh yeah, i am not a blue player for the most part, so i run much more of those redirect effect which can turn my opponent's removal back on them

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and negate the one-for-one card disadvantage into a two-for-one sometimes

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but for combo purpose, the classific hexproof swiftfoot or greaves are just better

hard saddle
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What about [[rite of flame]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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compare to your funny monkey

hard saddle
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There's also [[treasonous ogre]] but yikes that 3 life

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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it is definitely not a [[dark ritual]] so its really bad if you dont win the same turn with that mana

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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3 life is nothing in commander

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the initial 4 mana is the bigger deal here

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if it untaps, and make 13 mana with 39 life, i think you win that turn?

hard saddle
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So yay or nay?

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Or debatable based on pod?

deft belfry
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depends on how fast you want your deck and how $$pricey

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not the most causal. somewhat competitive mindset mana ritual type of card

hard saddle
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Fair

deft belfry
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[[mana gesyer]] is more fun for me

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “mana gesyer”

hard saddle
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I do miss that card, and [[seething song]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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seething is okay since you do go up by 2 mana

hard saddle
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And perhaps even [[runaway steam-kin]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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but most of the spells in the deck is blue so

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you have to be careful about those

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i can see [[strike it rich]] doing work since it is both two spell in one and it can be mana neutral

shrewd zealotBOT
hard saddle
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It also helps me build a pile for when I decide to make Herigast

deft belfry
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runaway is one of the "birgi" that refunds mana but the lack of red spell is the issue

hard saddle
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Yeah still mostly blue

deft belfry
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draw go is very much a blue thing

hard saddle
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So right now we have rite of flame, high tide, untimely malfunction for 3 adds/cuts

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If only I could buy jeskas will again for what it used to cost

deft belfry
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no rite of flame

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thats bad since you net one out of it

hard saddle
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Seething song and guilded lotus then

deft belfry
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not an actual gage, i would probably rate those closer to B3 than B4 optimization though

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but they should work if thats what matters

hard saddle
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I'm aiming for 3.5 lol

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Mostly because I have another B4 deck that has my other good stuff, but no one really thinks it's B4 (RogSi but it's sensei's combos)

hard saddle
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Added anger of the gods since I don't care if my smaller creatures die

vagrant bolt
deft belfry
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examples are horsemanship, and then all knights getss +1/+1 go wide synergy

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[[anger of god]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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meh its okay for a small wipe, bit niche though

hard saddle
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At least based on where I went to. People like little guys stacking up

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Although chandras ignition probably better

sweet ember
sweet ember
sweet ember
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Same with Wayfarers Bauble

sweet ember
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Also because if I ever cut it it will still be nice to have Crop Ritation for future Green decks so win-win esp since it’s not expensive

sweet ember
sweet ember
sweet ember
sweet ember
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Should I switch them out then? I felt stable sources of tokens would be very helpful, but if not then should I cut them out? What about the likes of Tendershoot Dryad and Koma that generate tokens on everyone’s upkeep? And should I remove Hollowhendge Overlorde and Biowaste Ooze? They are exponential and I can accelerate their curve with the likes of Mystic Reflection and Esix

drowsy turtle
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I'm VERY new to Commander, I need help with making sure ramp is okay, what bracket this even falls under (I know it's Rule 0 at least), and if there's anything I should consider? I want to keep this around bracket 1-2, but I don't know if the gamechangers make that a problem even though all the ones I use are for consistency purposes.

deft belfry
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[[Hollowhendge Overlorde ]]and [[Biowaste Ooze]]?

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “Biowaste Ooze”

deft belfry
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some big stuff is fine , just be aware off the mana curve so cards can be played

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once per rotation vs 4 per rotation is obviously much weaker

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[[bio waste ooz]]

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “bio waste ooz”

sweet ember
shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “Biowaste Ooze”

sweet ember
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Oh my bad its [[Biowaste Blob]]

shrewd zealotBOT
sweet ember
deft belfry
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[[sphinx second sun]]

shrewd zealotBOT
sweet ember
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Oooh, I forgot this one existed

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8 mana is a lot but the second upkeep being after combat makes timing a lot easier

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Hmmmm

deft belfry
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🤓

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Actually

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its a trigger that happens on POSTCOMBAT main phase
which means its unkeep AFTER second main phase

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yeah 8 mana is a lot, although being a non legendary means its also possible to clone it

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mainly there to get your upkeep payoff the same turn

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green decks cna often afford higher mana cost due to the amount of quality ramp
in general i think its very much your play style with untapped mana on your opponent's turn

deft belfry
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[[everythingamajig]] is like a 9 mana ability and not a ramp source since it comes out at the 6 mana curve

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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[[everflowing chalice]] fits into any curve and basically ramp you by 50% when you untap

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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in a mono colour deck, you actually want more colourless utility/versatile mana rock before blindly add [[arcane signet]] in every deck

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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without a win con, i doubt the deck can be higher than B2

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and the lack of removal basically means you cant* interact much to the board

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idk how you want to troll with this deck and lot of that depends on your questions

drowsy turtle
deft belfry
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did you played 60 cards format before

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24 out of 60 is about... 40%? (yep checked my math); and commander sort of goes the same. I have seen the lowest of all extreme that play no more than 33 lands but they are the outliers. an average deck out of 99 cards should have at least 40 sources of mana including mana rocks that can be played before the commander

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based on popular believe, Bracket 1 is about show case of cards and social/yapping causal setting that basically doesnt believe in playable cards. ~ Source: Me

hard saddle
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The other list I made was... Not good

proper belfry
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Do you have any recommendations on a way to make tribal wolves / werewolves viable for bracket 3

deft belfry
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gruul werewolves or no limit just want to play some wolves

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i can check what scales well but not that many stands out to me when lot of them has less utility than today's changeling

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transform and the later nightbound mechanic is also not well supported so you would need some powerful things to make up for that different in power imo

deft belfry
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is that your very first list because some of the mentioned cards are in there, as well as the mind splicer that you wanted to cut

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[[!mindsplicer]]* misre the name

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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probably with burglar rat discard the table is that they are all letting your opponent decide what to discard. most importantly, by themselves you will lose out of cards really quick

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for etb focus those, can reconsider the [[blood clock]] i mentioned the first time, and maybe [[mirror of life trapping]] for some disruption that also double up your etbs

shrewd zealotBOT
hard saddle
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I may just need bloodchief ascension and pilfer

deft belfry
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pilfer is the treasure generator on creature dying?

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there are more than one pilfer in the game although maybe just one black one

hard saddle
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[[pilfer]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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i think because of the "selected" discard by your opponents, you will almost never get the cards you want

hard saddle
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Lol

deft belfry
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they help with limiting the choice they have left but you can never hellbent the entire table

hard saddle
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Oh believe me I have done it a few time already

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The problem is also hellbent-ing myself too lol

deft belfry
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like triple landfall per turn stripe mind each player for one land?? you arent getting ahead yourself

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because this build you will almost always run out of things on your side

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then you are stuck with your opponent's cards

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that they either didnt play or couldnt play

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its hard to plan around cards you dont own as well as playing off top deck drawin once per turn

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and thats the situation you put yourself into, as well as others into

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if someone got ahead, they may still stay ahead though

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the mana base seems decent, i would argue unlimited handsize isnt needed but that would be a very minor thing, 38 lands seems about right, personally i may go lower by 1 or 2 expecting to discard lands to play

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and since all the hellbent discard is at socery spell, they always able to play the next top card of they deck

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[[lantern of isnight]] not recommanded but it would reveal ahead of time of what is coming and can show every card drew to know exactly what to discard without guessing

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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but its knowledge overload and add too much decision making point

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[[glasses of urza]] is much jankier and funnier imo

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
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"i will tap my glasses, and look at MY hand"

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sry for low quality discord gifs, i think they deleted all the good ones from back then or my generation isnt the target audience 🧓

hard saddle
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I'm almost pressed to make this into a rack/lantern control

proper belfry
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Yes gruul. I was thinking craterhoof and triumph of the hordes as the wincons

hard saddle
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I might consider cutting syr konrad because he doesn't really suit the deck theme?

deft belfry
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what are your options for this werewolf

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because i think you basically only got one good one?

proper belfry
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Trying to keep it as a more casual deck since its mainly for my kiddos to play and help them learn the game. I need to throw in changlings to help it a bit but im running tolvor as the commander with all the good werewolves and wolves

split forum
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Would love some help with a Lathril, Blade of the Elves B3 deck. Not sure where to go with her.

deft belfry
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because it is a popular deck and i think it is also a face commander, there are probably countless guides for lathril online, can always reference those first. and just to be safe, dont go below 35/36 lands no matter who low your curve is, since you need to land the 4 drop on curve [[!lathril blade of elves]]

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
shrewd zealotBOT
#

No card found for “tolvar, overlord”

deft belfry
#

[[tovolar dire overlord]]

shrewd zealotBOT
#

https://scryfall.com/card/mid/246/tovolar-dire-overlord-tovolar-the-midnight-scourge

Tovolar, Dire Overlord <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manar:292901508796645397><:manag:292901508654301185>

Legendary Creature — Human Werewolf
Whenever a Wolf or Werewolf you control deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control three or more Wolves and/or Werewolves, it becomes night. Then transform any number of Human Werewolves you control.
Daybound
3/3

Tovolar, the Midnight Scourge
Legendary Creature — Werewolf
Whenever a Wolf or Werewolf you control deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
manaxmanarmanag: Target Wolf or Werewolf you control gets +X/+0 and gains trample until end of turn.
Nightbound
4/4

deft belfry
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so much useless text on a card XD and the pain of keeping track of day night with extra hidden text

proper belfry
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The 11 year old is an animal lover and the 7 year old thinks they're cool so I said fuck it let's build it

deft belfry
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how convenient

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well, since tovolar is tribal [[coastal privacy]] in the commande zone, as long as there are enough creature connecting it should be able to keep a hand size, but definitely not as simply as like the rocket Racoon

shrewd zealotBOT
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No card found for “coastal privacy”

proper belfry
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Lol

deft belfry
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and for starter we can probably avoid too many changeling since they are like the wild card cheat code, and probably dont need maskwood nexus

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also they dont look very werewolf like with transform, which visually matters in this case imo

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red double strike, and green trample in general net the most card draw here and since its bad incentive to block and lose something in commander, people almost always take the full damage

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[[hunter insight]] before damage never disappoints

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

off my head idr what makes transform 'good' in the game so that part is hard to take advantage of

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and since we dont have blue cloning we dont have to run into the interaction of tokens copy having a back side and non token clones card permanents DOESNT have a backside

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oh fuck i just noticed the worst part of transform

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its so bad for playing in sleeves XD

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its basically asking for the quickest way to turn cards into moderately played and challenging your skill at sleeving up cards quickly

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i would use clear sleeve for double faced cards and use lot of checklist tokens for the deck sleeved cards for that issue but it still make a 130 card deck, harder to deal with, with small hands

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[[torgal a fine hound]] is probably one of the newest additional to wolfs but for the most part i am sure its a long solved tribal deck where edkrechas almost everything you need

shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
#

maybe add in some wolvine stuff for flavour reasons but those are obviously going to be pricier

wicked gust