Yeah thats the really nice part about marchesa for sure
#REVERSED! (EDH) Assistance!
cold quartz
I think your clarifying it but also making it harder, I already have like 100 cards in considering π
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Yeah thats sick, blue gets all the fun for sure hahaha
One of my fav commanders is [[minn, Wily Illusionist]] nothing like occasionally winning with combat damage in blue, what a rush
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
a free crime committer is [[hex parasite]] crime all over their lands XD
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact Creature β Phyrexian Insect
: Remove up to X counters from target permanent. For each counter removed this way, this creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn. ( can be paid with either 
or 2 life.)
Drawn by power, fueled by conquest.
1/1
deft belfry
i wish my crime deck isnt a troll deck
cold quartz
Hahaha nothing wrong with that
deft belfry
but it gets me all the aggro
no one believed me when i claim i have no way of winning
cold quartz
Ooh yeah I got those
deft belfry
no X spells, no deck synergy, "yes i have 25 mana, i can spend 7 to draw 1 card and end my turn with hand empty"
get killed by the next attack" x_X
cold quartz
Hahaha that happens at my table too but also because those types of decks also politic really hard to be like I'm such a silly, small boy, don't attack me I won't hurt you then they just whip out some crazy shit late in the game
deft belfry
i think i would swap terminate for [[ponify]] and bedevil for [[rakdos charm]]
deft belfry
[[!pongify]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Ok some cheaper removal
I do like rakdos charm for the go Wide [[scute swarm]] and white token ooayers
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[the darkness crystall]] hmmm
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Artifact
Black spells you cast cost 
less to cast.
If a nontoken creature an opponent controls would die, instead exile it and you gain 2 life.
, 
: Put target creature card exiled with The Darkness Crystal onto the battlefield tapped under your control with two additional +1/+1 counters on it.
cold quartz
Ooh interesting, I do run into those sometimes for sure
And black spell reduction in nice
deft belfry
if your table meta is tokens, i would go for [[massacre worm]][[kayaghostform]]
deft belfry
but hard cast 6 isnt always worst it, more of a sitational reanimate target
its a kill only on tokens (like a 3 mana effect) but the burn on a body makes it go hard
cold quartz
No not too much tokens...we play different decks almost every time but there's almost always green, I'm almost always the only one with blue..some spellslinger gets played sometimes, but aggro is starting to get pretty popular at the table
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Ooh yeah I love that one
deft belfry
its too strong for my casual deck/match up i dont have much chance using that card
cold quartz
White pops up quite a bit too but only sometimes with tokens. Quite often with boros
deft belfry
[[archaeomancer]] loops with reanimator?
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
not quite dualcaster mage but can do some repeat threat until your grave is gone
[[journey underworld]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[travel underworld]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[rescue from underworld]] is the instant version of victimize
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Oh I did have that in the 100 at one point. Can't remember when or why I removed it
deft belfry
probably the mana cost
i have issue with victimize if the creature count get too low as well
not enough targets to activate
cold quartz
Yeah thats fair, also I feel like with the creature list being so lean, sacrificing a good one can feel bad
deft belfry
[[will of the jeskai]] could speed things up or mess things around
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Victimize felt good though. I was recurring that a bit
deft belfry
probably helps opponents too much
cold quartz
Ooh my pod haaaates wheel effects
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Ik, a couple of them are quite new, I was running a goad deck for a bit to get them to not forget about combat steps π
deft belfry
you see lose your hand, i see card draw in red
cold quartz
True
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
this is one of the more subject "stax"
cold quartz
Yeah it's definitely a more fair one
deft belfry
it slows the game but allows turns to end fast with bare minimium action
cold quartz
I feel like as the resident blue player with a lot of cheap stuff that might hurt me the most
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
O
deft belfry
its most broken in a hinata deck but pretty okay for blue players
i will be building aura colour shifted enchantress with it
cold quartz
With [[teferi's ageless insight]] or no since I moreso want them in the yard not hand
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
is underworld breach too strong
cold quartz
Depends on what decks they're running that session. Sometimes, sometimes not
I was considering it though
Since a lot of lands do end up in the yard
That card always makes me want to play my [[obeka, brute chronologist]] deck
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Ogre Wizard
: The player whose turn it is may end the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities from the stack. The player whose turn it is discards down to their maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)
"I'm bored with now."
3/4
deft belfry
[[!underworld breach]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Oo, yeah it's not your
deft belfry
may siound weird, i find sheoldred lack luster in here since you dont really draw that cards or wheel the table
its usually much deadly on the board
cold quartz
For 4 mana it feels good since I'm often getting 2-3 triggers of marchesa a cycle, looter effects, all the upkeeps and stuff it added up pretty quick
And a good statline
deft belfry
i am too used to seeing it be a kill on sight card when somone pulls out their $80 win con π
cold quartz
I was about to say, even as removal fodder, she eats it so archon doesn't
deft belfry
using her as distraction
cold quartz
And since I don't have wheel effects it's not crazy broken by any means
cold quartz
Hahahah
I mean if we want to be pedantic, free fierce guardianship and deflecting swat and all the other game changers are just as good if not better in some cases
deft belfry
toss away gold bar to hide the small gem in plain sight
cold quartz
Not toss away, victimize back π
deft belfry
victimized sac
cold quartz
But yeah real talk whats like a 1 to 1 cut and add for the deck do you think
deft belfry
cold quartz
I will say though too I could be down to drop sheoldred for some of those cool blue ones we talked about earlier
Because I did kind of feel that way when I added it that it's just kind of a generically good card that doesn't have too much synergy in here
deft belfry
i can see [[corpse stitcher]] being useful but hard to mill the right things
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[out of the tomb]] is expensive and i havent got the best value out of it with the random mill
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Oh one "ramp" piece I did want to get your opinion on - [[spiteful Banditry]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
worse than [[reval in riches]] but at 2 mana its really nice in the right deck
shrewd zealotBOT
Enchantment
Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, create a Treasure token. (It's an artifact with ", Sacrifice this token: Add one mana of any color.")
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control ten or more Treasures, you win the game.
deft belfry
X does make it flexible
but things dont die every turn to give 4 treasures per row
if it paid for itself with 2-3 tread=sures then it is fine
cold quartz
So probably just ok
I do like the flexibility of it but yeah it doesn't do either effect really well
deft belfry
[[rollercrusher ride]]
shrewd zealotBOT
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Hmm interesting
I thought I was gonna create a Henzie deck for my 2nd deck but a treasure burn deck sounds fun too
deft belfry
you may consider [[vazi k negotiator]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Human Advisor
Haste
: Target opponent creates X Treasure tokens, where X is the number of Treasure tokens you created this turn.
Whenever an opponent casts a spell or activates an ability, if mana from a Treasure was spent to cast it or activate it, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature, then draw a card.
3/3
cold quartz
Oh one reason I had [[scrounge for eternity]] in the deck is that it's some of the only land ramp outside of green that is good in the deck, idk how valuable you think that is but I thought it sounded good on paper
shrewd zealotBOT
Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice an artifact or creature.
Return target creature or Spacecraft card with mana value 5 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield. Then create a Lander token. (It's an artifact with "
, , Sacrifice this token: Search your library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle.")
deft belfry
let everone sink deeper [[descend in avenus ]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[avenus descen]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
(β―Β°β‘Β°)β―οΈ΅ β»ββ»
cold quartz
[[Descent into avernus]] I think
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Ya
deft belfry
yes the a-nus
cold quartz
Hahaha yeah that one
deft belfry
https://scryfall.com/card/eoe/114/scrounge-for-eternity
i guess it can sac treasure too
cold quartz
Oh vazi does sound cool
cold quartz
Yeah I've been going back and forth on it for that reason
If I add some of those lower cmc blue cards though reanimating a card with less than 5cmc on top of that could be good, but I mean also for like 2 mana I could get a 10 if it's in the yard so
deft belfry
probaly depends on how many target you can choose from
because i can see an [[archmage of. runes]] being low of value
shrewd zealotBOT
Creature β Giant Wizard
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost less to cast.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, draw a card.
He's so intent on his study that others think him frozen in place.
3/6
shrewd zealotBOT
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[saw in half]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
makes gary super lethal with the triple drain trigger
cold quartz
Ooooh yeah, archon too just to discard their hand
deft belfry
can be a desperate move to remove commander from attacking too
deft belfry
lol
cold quartz
So many cool cards I want in there
deft belfry
not the 120 cards companion?
deft belfry
straight up [[battle of wits ]] style shuffle commander into the 199 win con?
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Hahaha yeah screw thoracle
deft belfry
[[yorion, sky normad]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Bird Serpent
Companion β Your starting deck contains at least twenty cards more than the minimum deck size. (If this card is your chosen companion, you may put it into your hand from outside the game for 
as a sorcery.)
Flying
When Yorion enters, exile any number of other nonland permanents you own and control. Return those cards to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step.
4/5
cold quartz
Wtf it's real
deft belfry
turn battle of wits into artifact -> [[realm sketch]] token ->kill all cards and shuffle commander into library = win the game [[near death experience]] in blue
cold quartz
That has to be bad no, or at least about the same effect as having 100
deft belfry
[[relm's sketching]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Oooh ok
deft belfry
to play with lessons
or silver border π€
https://moxfield.com/decks/jjrtvdPYCUmuUtuHr6xVkg this one i am testing out illegal faceless TWO partner
cold quartz
Damn thats sick, Ben brode stuff right there
So outside of those 3 cuts, maybe cut 1 or 2 more top end ramp like the dragon, I was thinking of cutting a couple of the protection things like [[malakir rebirth]] and lightning greaves with so much reanimate effects, for some of the earlier discussed blue cards, and maybe a couple 7 mana bombs for like 10 mana ones?
shrewd zealotBOT
Instant
Choose target creature. You lose 2 life. Until end of turn, that creature gains "When this creature dies, return it to the battlefield tapped under its owner's control."
"Those who fail to escape Malakir become part of the city's defense." βDoros, expedition guide
Malakir Mire
Land
This land enters tapped.
: Add .
"Getting into Malakir isn't difficult. It's getting out that's the hard part." βDoros, expedition guide
deft belfry
but malakir is also a land in itself are you puting a land back inn place?
cold quartz
Mmm true
deft belfry
i think i also saw maze ith
cold quartz
Yeah with tags on I didn't include that in my lands
deft belfry
so you will need to be extra careful about the actual land count
cold quartz
I do need to get more reps in for sure because in those couple games I was churning cards so much I thought I had too many lands in the deck tbh
And it didn't feel high roll, felt like how an average game would be
deft belfry
i like [[ash baren]] as my budget churning spell
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
going to run [[lorien revealed]] more as well
shrewd zealotBOT
Sorcery
Draw three cards.
Islandcycling (, Discard this card: Search your library for an Island card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.)
"Look on us now with friendly eyes! Behold the trees of the Naith of LΓ³rien and be glad!" βHaldir
cold quartz
Ash baren?
shrewd zealotBOT
Land
: Add 
.
Basic landcycling (, Discard this card: Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.)
cold quartz
Hmm so you use these to get more lands out of the deck faster?
deft belfry
fixing as well since i like to run low budget mana base
in [[araumi, dea tide]] it also give exile resouces
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Merfolk Wizard
, Exile cards from your graveyard equal to the number of opponents you have: Target creature card in your graveyard gains encore until end of turn. The encore cost is equal to its mana cost. (Exile the creature card and pay its mana cost: For each opponent, create a token copy that attacks that opponent this turn if able. They gain haste. Sacrifice them at the beginning of the next end step. Activate only as a sorcery.)
1/4
deft belfry
but yeah main idea is to reduce my land count within the 99 slowly
cold quartz
That's fair, with tabletop we are cognizant to not go too too crazy on card prices but land fixing is fair game and it's no holds barred, get the tangas if you want
deft belfry
i want roughy less than 30 lands in my remaining deck after i have my hand by T3
cold quartz
It's hard to know on moxfield what the actual price would be though since I'm like changing the art on every card cus I like to look at pretty stuff haha
deft belfry
i would use like the most reasonable price
cold quartz
Hmm interesting, how many lands do you start with
deft belfry
opening the most aggressive ones 2 + ramp, but the average is at least 3 lands w/wo ramp. my last two games i kept 6 lands and somehow scaled well enough to beat the table as archenemy
table was making some newbie mistakes though to say the least
cold quartz
What you kept a 6 lander
deft belfry
i didnt want to risk the hand
cold quartz
What was the 7th card lol
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i mean, i am drawing all gas
Tifa got 7 power swing on T4
then [[lizard blade]] so triple combat phase
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact Creature β Equipment Lizard
Double strike
Equipped creature has double strike.
Reconfigure (: Attach to target creature you control; or unattach from a creature. Reconfigure only as a sorcery. While attached, this isn't a creature.)
1/1
deft belfry
they had no removal in that b2 game so i ended the game prematurally
cold quartz
Oh damn, yeah that'll do it, I also just got one of my first turn 5 wins ever with [[Ivy, gleeful spellthief]] last week
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i love that
but the one who tried it gave up
"math too hard" he said]
its factorial
cold quartz
Yeah I love that deck but it's too strong for our table most of the time
deft belfry
i loike [[volo guide to monsters]] more
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
I'm trying to get them to run more interaction but π€·
cold quartz
Oh holy fuck that goes hard
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
12 etb triggers
deft belfry
technically still B2
cold quartz
Ahh yeah one of those
deft belfry
"oh, i guess i will bounce the original with summoning sickness"
cold quartz
Well I'm gonna head to bed, thank you a lot for all your help! Gonna get some games in tomorrow and I'll report back
deft belfry
Gn, going to bed too
cold quartz
Gn
storm fox
i just put these in the considering section of AO, would you think it might be worth it to add them? since AO can grab them for free upon death (maybe replace sol ring?)
storm fox
also, since i have no mono colored deck yet, i have decided i wanna build the entire cycle as my mono colored decks
deft belfry
i already forgot half the cycle, i know the green and black ones are decent, red do have impulse draw
for AO, since i dont expect it to come out too early and get lot of death triggers, having a few it can grab freely is nice but not a requirement. so it kinda depends how important the mana helps the deck. if it is played with suspend 3, it would be out on the 4th turn
in most games it is on the slow side but the lotus mana somewhat makes up for it
in mono colour, mox that only add one mana of the same colour is too small to be significant. the downside is too high of a risk for a dead card
i would only consider the sol talisman and lotus for that reason
since sol ring is sol ring
but i would probably never replace sol ring with it unless i have gyruda Companion
or other weird self restricted theme
suspend 3 is a very noticeable drawback and even more so in commander multiplayer format
9/10 times they are consider unplayable in the avg deck
probably like a tier below Spirit guide?
cold quartz
hey @deft belfry I finished swapping the discussed cards yesterday and taking a look at the bombs again, what are your top picks from what I have here, thinking of dropping gray merchant since my black devotion is inconsistant and maybe hullbreaker horror
https://moxfield.com/decks/I1CxGtc0kEag7RH2dcpY6w
also what are your fav game changers in the side board to move it to bracket 3, or one that isnt there
was thinking ancient tomb and mystical tutor for sure
also maybe thinking of cutting [[yawgmoth's vile offering]] to put an additional bomb in
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
and maybe [[victimize]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
hey <@391063794387910656> I finished swapping the discussed cards yesterday and ...
yeah i thought of dropping gary too last night, although i am not sure about hullbreaker consider how oppressive it can be as a win con. but ofc its also a kill on sight card against anyone with a decent hand size
[[mystical tutor]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[solve the equation]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
i did include [[saw in half]] in the 100 which does make it better but that could also just go for any of the bombs
[[saw in half]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
π
i wish a copy of that, its so hard to make clones outside of blue
have*
out of the GC i think mystical isnt the strongest but the utility in here is definitely better than the avg deck
cold quartz
wait solve isnt a GC? i guess it costs 2 more but still
deft belfry
ancient tomb in 40 life format would ofc have no argument, same for rhystic in multiplayer
sorcery as well
cold quartz
yeah, reanimations are quite cheap spells
deft belfry
but if you plan ahead well enough, not searching for an instant combo piece
i think its better to run it because it open up
the GC spot for something much better
deft belfry
going to eat and maybe scryfall otag some tutor options if needed, will figure out what the best GCs
okay will check after
cold quartz
sounds good, thank you
deft belfry
also maybe thinking of cutting [[yawgmoth's vile offering]] to put an additional...
its good that you brought up yawg offering because i also thought of cutting that but i didnt want to change the reanimation package too much. so if your testing seems to say so, i think it should work out
my experience with it is that 5 mana for the full removal and reanimate is still too much
and sometimes there just isnt a target for both part
cold quartz
yeah, the main reason for inclusion for me actually was a graveyard instead of my
deft belfry
the upside is the flexibility of stealing from other players grave, but it is niche outside of a mill deck. the legendary part is also more of a drawback when a deck dont have lot of legend synergy
cold quartz
but yeah without mill if i get that early its probably dead
deft belfry
yea i played it once in a deck and ofc misplayed and greeded for a land drop so i failed to remove the lethal threat π΅βπ«
π΅
cold quartz
oof
deft belfry
i had the mana to cast one other spell in hand (which can apparent dig 6 deep) but i thought it can only dig 4 deep
so i expected to hit the land for turn before playing the target destroy
and then i was 1 mana off
cold quartz
ooooh thats a disaster
deft belfry
yeah i had the answer, threw it away, pay for it
cold quartz
deffinitely not me reading 90% of the text, thinking i know how it works, playing it and then reading that final sentence
deft belfry
so it is mixed feeling with a 5 mana removal when there are like things that reduce their own cost
may try it again in rowan cost reduction
cold quartz
oh yeah that could be a good spot for it
deft belfry
for GCs i am more gravitated toward card advantage and mana, free spell so its probably an tomb, jeskai will and fierce guardianship for me, but i know that gifts ungiven is a very strong card; i just dont know how to use it well
so i listed those 3 from "best to worst" from my perspective, can swap one of the latter two for gifts
cold quartz
play some [[atris, oracle of Half-truths]] youll learn π
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i played that in the 99
it works for me but hidden politic is not my strong suit
my average card quality/deck is too janky
cold quartz
its not even hidden politic, if the deck is built around it, either pile works
deft belfry
i can somewhat predict how my opponent would split the cards
my facedown card sucks enough i can easily take the face up pile lol
there is no mind game involve with me XD
but atris has that commander zone [[fact or faction]] effect where you can ask for the card to deal with the current situation
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
yeah atris as the commander is fun
deft belfry
not quite group hug, but for a "help others to help yourself" best case scenario is having a common threat on the otherside of the table. being in second put you in a safe spot
blue and black are not the colours asking for fun tho
cold quartz
hahaha true
deft belfry
for raw synergy, basically any of the GCs you have here works
cold quartz
yeah, my takes for GCs also usually follow your reasoning
deft belfry
demonic tutor for a win con or just the second copy of the key card in the deck is never a bad idea, might be a bit weaker than how a free counterspell can change the flow of the game
cold quartz
it always puts a smile on my face when my buddy looks at my tapped mana and thinks they can do anything and then i drop that
or the inverse and leave mana up just to scare them
deft belfry
i do find it underwhelming that the utility is no different than a [[!diabolic tutor]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
its hard to make it into a memorable moment as the finisher
cold quartz
yeah i also personally dont like get anything in the deck tutors, if theyre more narrow i find that more reasonable
deft belfry
and part of it is just my inexperience with non land tutor so i am not always searching for the right card; and taking up more time on my turn
cold quartz
saaame
deft belfry
XD i guess. tutor itself may not be the card for us, but is good to learn it
when i narset reversal the tutor and still lose the game because i find too many things icant play
but that was also nearly a decade ago... i promise i got better ... maybe
cold quartz
yeah i feel that
cold quartz
once i spent like 10 minutes tutoring for a card when i was down bad and going to lose next turn, finally found the perfect card that could save me and then they just counterspell
cold quartz
thats what im saying lol
deft belfry
watch you struggle and give PTSD from ever using tutor
cold quartz
4 tutors in one turn is crazy though haha
part of my reason for not liking them though is since i swap between like 20-30 decks i never know what to grab with the tutor so it takes so long
deft belfry
at this point, i think i somewhat believe that if i want to play a tutor in a deck, i either need a clear idea what i want to tutor for (secret commander), more restriction on what i can find ([[muddle the mixture]]) when i build the deck, and/or know my deck list well enough without looking through 80 cards
shrewd zealotBOT
Instant
Counter target instant or sorcery spell.
Transmute 
(, Discard this card: Search your library for a card with the same mana value as this card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle. Transmute only as a sorcery.)
deft belfry
for B3 power, half my tutor is just getting the removal because i am up against the players that are creating "problems" and i have to be the one to "answer" the problem
cold quartz
Yeah that is exactly my thoughts on it too
deft belfry
i dont play B4 but at that point my tutor is just to stop a win or get myself the win with a combo or such
cant speak for B5
cold quartz
Yeah 2 out of the 4 players in my pod practically never play decks with removal, then complain when their stuff gets removed π like to me that's what makes magic so interesting
deft belfry
part of my reason for not liking them though is since i swap between like 20-30 ...
same, i learnt to keep my total deck count to less than 10 at a time but keep taking decks apart and often dont have a deck list uploaded onto a site
cold quartz
And if your deck can't come back from removal, you probably need a better deck
cold quartz
i dont play B4 but at that point my tutor is just to stop a win or get myself th...
Yeah I also very rarely b4 and also never b5
deft belfry
XD last week or the week b4 i played my slight altered Tidus precon which is super fun for me, i had a 5 land hand and top deck lands all game, played 0 removal that game (except for one bounce effect that didnt change anything) my opponents board wipe kept me alive and rebuild to win the game
it was like 12 turns no missed land drop and still have 4 lands in hand
cold quartz
That happened to my buddy too recently hahaha
Also because we felt bad and didn't swing at them
deft belfry
i built one "b4" deck pre bracket existed, dont own a Gc card and it has hardly any interaction because i built it for an achievement using infinite life gain,reanimate combo
oh i was the archenemy with my 20+ counters and T2 [[forgotten ancient]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Ah ok interesting, some of my "b4" decks are probably really b3 but just too strong for our b3 games
deft belfry
sol ring turn 1, and the table completely forgot about how i got over 30+ counters from my T2 play that stayed on board the entire game
very fitting of forgotten ancient
i need to play more [[!cheaty face]] against new players
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
hahaha love that card for those types of games
hard to sneak in on tabletop ive found
deft belfry
right, you cant play it with a land
cold quartz
very fitting of forgotten ancient
verrrry fitting
deft belfry
little surprise you added jin gita core augur but 10 mana definite worth reanimating
cold quartz
yeah i was about to mention it actually..it might be too rude tbh
deft belfry
maybe worth trying?
i have only hard casted it in my life, twice in fact
both times it hardly matters because someone have removal at that point
cold quartz
in a simic deck or just a long af blue game?
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
'you are here to suffer with me and i hope you enjoy every moment of it'
cold quartz
hahaha yeah ive only played that once and it was a fun game
deft belfry
in my case i used it like 4 times, i trolled everyone at my table and my win rate with it is okay... but it is a top priority for removal for the table
cold quartz
yeah that makes sense
reminds me of when i play one of my favorites [[maelstrom wanderer]], first deck that wasnt a precon ive played and my pod quickly learned to never let it sit on the field, ever
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
ive brought it back recently and it quickly costed like 13 mana to cast lol and then i just had high cost spells dead in my hand
deft belfry
at least its not a enter the field and instantly go the strongest card out of the deck
cold quartz
yeah true
deft belfry
i kinda did that but with [[etali primal conqueror]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Elder Dinosaur
Trample
When Etali enters, each player exiles cards from the top of their library until they exile a nonland card. You may cast any number of spells from among the nonland cards exiled this way without paying their mana costs.
: Transform Etali. Activate only as a sorcery.
7/7
Etali, Primal Sickness
Legendary Creature β Phyrexian Elder Dinosaur
Trample, indestructible
Whenever Etali deals combat damage to a player, they get that many poison counters. (A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.)
The contagion spreads and the Multiverse quakes.
11/11
cold quartz
it can often be a 7 mana birds of paradise xd
deft belfry
brutal deck for how budget my ramp is
cold quartz
etali or maelstrom?
cold quartz
ooh yeah, etali is sick
deft belfry
in your case etali primal storm without haste is a hit or miss
also can whiff on lands
cold quartz
and they cant get mad because im just like, hey i didnt bring those crazy cards to the table, yall did
deft belfry
i mean, i do have ways to clone etali for additional triggers
cold quartz
oh thats fun
deft belfry
and the rest of the deck is ramp [[curse mirror]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact
: Add 
.
As this artifact enters, you may have it become a copy of any creature on the battlefield until end of turn, except it has haste.
cold quartz
oh thats a cool card
deft belfry
it is too strong with a no GC b3 power at that table
yeah it is one of the best red clone
as worst its still a 3 drop mana rock
cold quartz
with how good low cmc creatures are getting lately though that at worst is probably pretty rare
deft belfry
and since it has haste, it can be your opponent's best Asian version of the same creature
"i am you but better"
or clone your own archon for both etb and attack trigger
cold quartz
hahaha yeah i have a couple dedicated just copy decks that are fun for that
"i dont need a wincon if i take yours"
deft belfry
^but thats how you fall into your own trap
what if there are no win con to take
the best and worst of [[scuplting steel]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
yeah thats happened before when I didnt know my buddy brought a creatureless deck to the table
deft belfry
lol
rn, i am thinking of the cuts on gray, hull breaker ... not to such about [[sepulchral primodial]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
yeah with how i know my table likes their decks, that one land that enters as a copy of any land on the field is often way better than sculpting steel for our pod
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
wow thats a lot of options
i prolly have that in the copy deck, havent played it for a while though so i cant remember
deft belfry
going to find a way to play my [[mirran safehouse]] as well
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
that was more niche until i saw all those earthbend options and unique abilities
and i can put it in with the untap artifact deck
cold quartz
oh yeah earthbend keeps getting increasingly popular in my pod in the past few weeks
earthbend is gross
deft belfry
not as crazy as airbend recast, trigger all your cast triggers
cold quartz
it deffinitely is not, and got comboed out last week from an airbend, cost reduction deck
deft belfry
good thing jeskai cares more abouut non creature but there are still artifact enchantment etc
cold quartz
btw what do you mean about sepulcrhal primordial?
deft belfry
isnt [[toxrill corrosive]] more gross
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Slug Horror
At the beginning of each end step, put a slime counter on each creature you don't control.
Creatures you don't control get -1/-1 for each slime counter on them.
Whenever a creature you don't control with a slime counter on it dies, create a 1/1 black Slug creature token.
, Sacrifice a Slug: Draw a card.
7/7
deft belfry
than any gin gitaxus things you can do
well, primodial is 1 for 4 creatures but it is dependent on other's grave
instant value > [[sheoldred whispering]] one but long game reanimate and board control definitely less when you can reanimate your own, say chupacarba
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
mmm probably not more gross in my pod but yeah them being similar is true
deft belfry
chupacabra chupacabra need to get this word into my head i cannot spell that forever
deft belfry
sheoldred also has that old magic feel to it as one of the villians
so i think its kinda preferential which one is "better"
hard to do direct comparison, i dont have either but priomdial is cheaper $
cold quartz
i do like it as a card that if it sticks, i probably just win the game on the spot
deft belfry
the key about primodial is that if it doesnt stick you win harder with reanimate
or you can do blue flicker for more etb
sheoldred is the slow burn
also non legend is easier to do weird clones
cold quartz
yeah my main concern about primordial is that a good amount of the time my opponents graveyard isnt filled very much
deft belfry
[[blade of selves]] unless its Kokusho sac
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact β Equipment
Equipped creature has myriad. (Whenever it attacks, for each opponent other than defending player, you may create a token copy that's tapped and attacking that player or a planeswalker they control. Exile the tokens at end of combat.)
Equip
deft belfry
thats where the difference comes in, since this is a crime deck
there is more target removal than other engine
as long as your choice of crime isnt exile of sort, most of the best creatures do end up in grave
deft belfry
but then you have to reconsider who to target with bojuka bog in case primodial is your next reanimation target
cold quartz
yeah as crazy as it sounds, i was thinking of cutting bojuka bog
deft belfry
"oh thats whyyou get rid of my 1/1 creature instead of the 10/10 in grave"
rip bog
there are also funny lands that can commit crime repeatedly iirc but a basic is fine for now
cold quartz
i already got a couple with [[hammerheim]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Land
: Add .
: Target creature loses all landwalk abilities until end of turn.
"'Tis distance lends enchantment to the view,/ And robes the mountain in its azure hue." βThomas Campbell, "Pleasures of Hope"
cold quartz
could also maybe run [[strip mine]] instead too which probably gets more value in my pod
shrewd zealotBOT
Land
: Add .
, Sacrifice this land: Destroy target land.
Unlike previous conflicts, the war between Urza and Mishra made Dominaria itself a casualty of war.
deft belfry
i am still trying to find a deck to use the [[fire nation palance]] i picked up. not good as using utility lands
shrewd zealotBOT
Land
This land enters tapped unless you control a basic land.
: Add .
, : Target creature you control gains firebending 4 until end of turn. (Whenever it attacks, add . This mana lasts until end of combat.)
deft belfry
ohhh if you want there is [[demolition field] no not that one [[ruin of field]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Land
: Add .
, , Sacrifice this land: Destroy target nonbasic land an opponent controls. Each player searches their library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles.
deft belfry
Each player searches their library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield,
cold quartz
yeah getting a land back in this deck is probably better
cold quartz
and i love those etypes of cards for the politics
its why at one point i had [[xantcha, sleeper agent]] in here (that took a bit to find again)
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Phyrexian Minion
Xantcha enters under the control of an opponent of your choice.
Xantcha attacks each combat if able and can't attack its owner or planeswalkers its owner controls.
: Xantcha's controller loses 2 life and you draw a card. Any player may activate this ability.
5/5
deft belfry
i think i wouldnt go too far over 10 creatures that i dont want to hard cast
things over 6 manas gets hard to play
cold quartz
yeah in my head 8-10 sounded about right
deft belfry
rightnow i am still trying to get a copy and hope i see someone pull out their [[training ground]] before i can put xantcha on them
shrewd zealotBOT
Enchantment
Activated abilities of creatures you control cost less to activate. This effect can't reduce the mana in that cost to less than one mana.
For those who survived, being prepared for the next crisis became one of the greatest virtues.
deft belfry
"This is Xantcha's apparentice, in training"
cold quartz
me and my buddy almost beat a lifegain deck by using the xantcha ability on them, i think together we were like 2 mana off when they had like 30 life
deft belfry
but we know how in magic, every cub is stronger than the adult form
cold quartz
but yeah to summarize because im mixed up, cut gary, hullbreaker and maybe sheoldred and add what
deft belfry
i brought myself that Jpg avatar training ground and i just saw the interactions i can do with [[plaugue rat]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
oh crap wrong name again
its a rat with an "X: ability to deal X damage to each player and creature. only use 
on it"
cold quartz
oh thats cool
deft belfry
so i can basically cheat 2/3 of the mana with training ground
cold quartz
each is crazy
deft belfry
yeah if i can give it lifelink it would basically kill the table
itself has 1 toughness
will need tutor if training ground is my secret commander
cold quartz
Wait that's something I probably knew at one point but forgot, does lifelink work on non combat dmg
deft belfry
yes absolutely
cold quartz
Dayum
deft belfry
[[judith scor connoisseur]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[judith connoiseur]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
Oh that's a crazy card
deft belfry
whatchu mean i spend 5 mana for a legendary that doesnt do anything to you <.<
but yeah, if you ever find the perfect creature to use [[basilisk collar]] [[guttersnipe]] is never a bad target
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact β Equipment
Equipped creature has deathtouch and lifelink. (Any amount of damage it deals to a creature is enough to destroy it. Damage dealt by this creature also causes you to gain that much life.)
Equip (: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
deft belfry
not as crazy as all the curiousity [[keen sense]]
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
true
deft belfry
aura is underrated just because people think its always 2 for 1
cold quartz
yeah i fuck with auras
are there better bombs to replace those creatures that i cant think of
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
i did have that in but removed it
i love that card
in some of my other decks it just goes soooo crazy
deft belfry
me poor [[$ancient copper dragon]] it's sour π
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
yeah have they reprinted that dragon line at all
i suppose it says there, in the ff one
deft belfry
over $20 is kinda beyond my avg B2 power level budget π
cold quartz
honestly though, in a lot of my decks professional face breaker is a lot better imo
deft belfry
do [[reanimate]] trigger vilis draw
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
yeah i do like pro face breaker a lot
my guess is that vilis can see reanimate to draw 8
cold quartz
im almost positive, its not a triggered ability so it would be a state based action
deft belfry
but with vilis the apo sheoldred is definitely much better
cold quartz
if im understanding correctly
deft belfry
theres no state base action here
reanimate lost of life is part of the resolution
of a spell/ability, vilis is a trigger that keep track of life loses
cold quartz
oh i didnt realize that is a trigger keyword
deft belfry
so i think its just a matter of, with the order it is written, it makes sense that vilis is out and sees the loss of life
"Whenever -- , do this"
so there is always a chance to react to that draw trigger before you have more cards
if you like creature bomb, i can see consphinx being a big one for you
cold quartz
i usually pref non creature bomb but it fits this deck too well
deft belfry
but ofc its less synergy but rather more on the good stuff side
deft belfry
fair
overdrew + discard on clean up is a good way to control what goes to grave as well
cold quartz
that is a good point
deft belfry
but definitely rely less on commanders card selction and looting spells
cold quartz
yeah do you think i currently do rely too much on marchesa trigger, i could see her getting some remove on sight treatment
deft belfry
as long as you dont do thought vessal blue style max hand size control, drawing works well with reanimation
i dont know your group but in general i dont see her as a kill on sight creature. with that being said, someone who knows that weakness can also use that to their advantage
cold quartz
yeah i was doing 1v1 commander the other day with my buddy as one of the test games and he picked up on that fast
deft belfry
or scenario where everyone plays their 1 commander, and i have an edict effect to kill all 3 commanders for a 3 for 1 trade
cold quartz
it ended up being fine though because she does start at 3cmc
deft belfry
it would hinder the plan of 3 people at the cost of some karma points
cold quartz
i dont often see that in our pod
deft belfry
80% of the time i dont see marchesa dying right away
maybe even higher
and 4 toughness is a really good base stat
cold quartz
yeah true, its why i was thinking i could prolly just play her on 3 even though i cant use her ability that turn
cold quartz
yeah, which is why i kept my curve with a lot of 3 costs even though my commander is 3 because on t4 if i dont ramp i want to play a 3 and use 1 on marchesa
deft belfry
i think i can see a chance of cutting ramp but it is also your best time to ramp on 2 π©
cold quartz
yeah i was thinking of changing the ramp and adding more rocks for t2
because of that reason
deft belfry
perhaps you do want [[offer cant refuse]] instead of negate
shrewd zealotBOT
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell. Its controller creates two Treasure tokens. (They're artifacts with ", Sacrifice this token: Add one mana of any color.")
"I think you'll find my terms quite agreeable, if you know what's good for you."
deft belfry
oh really interesting
cold quartz
i guess the way i see it is because it costs 1 instead of 2 im probably trying to fit it in more in the early/mid game with another thing im doing which is a point where those 2 treassures matter, and in the late where they dont matter as much because we have more mana, then a counterspell/negate is fine too because we have more mana to work with
tall willow
Recently started working on this Tibalt deck again, rotating away from a treasure subtheme and replacing it with a discard subtheme. I just found a [[Painful Quandry]] and [[Tinybones, Bauble Burglar]] that I want to add, but don't know what I should cut. thoughts?
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Skeleton Rogue
Whenever an opponent discards a card, exile it from their graveyard with a stash counter on it.
During your turn, you may play cards you don't own with stash counters on them from exile, and mana of any type can be spent to cast those spells.
, : Each opponent discards a card. Activate only as a sorcery.
1/3
deft belfry
i guess the way i see it is because it costs 1 instead of 2 im probably trying t...
makes sense, thats how i comprehended your comment as well
[[delay]] is one that i really want to use but havent got much chance on
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
anyways i gtg to work, vilis is probably strongest of the bunch and i have a bias toward demons
wanted to dig up my troll B2 vraska silencer crime theme deck but will have to wait
every game was brutal and it hardly ever wins but is paired with jokes that would mark myself as a immoral criminal
Vilki i will be back for you
cold quartz
i love that haha
storm fox
i would only consider the sol talisman and lotus for that reason
maybe i'll slot in the black lotus at some point, but i think for now i'll just keep it as it is
wicked gust
anyways i gtg to work, vilis is probably strongest of the bunch and i have a bia...
When you can still need ideas on 3 cuts - https://moxfield.com/decks/6Usvem2XfEi8Orx06IFCew
deft belfry
π
tall willow
Chaos Dragon (Inconsistent attacker)
Bedlam (Don't you WANT creatures to die?)
Mogis, God of Slaughter (this is a "Opponents attack other opponents" deck, not a group slug deck)
Those are my picks for cuts at least
deft belfry
Recently started working on this Tibalt deck again, rotating away from a treasur...
discard is a difficult one to work with but i can assume it is going for the mean route?
tall willow
yup
also works with the fact that Tibalt gives me a "second hand" that can't be discarded :3
deft belfry
not the biggest fan of chromatic lantern in a 2 colour deck and for ramp i would probably do thran dynamo, but ramp is ramp so i will pay attention to the utility and discard-engine:payoff card ratio first
tall willow
My thought process for Chromatic Lantern was "if I steal things with specific activated abilities, this will work"
deft belfry
ah, too much extra steps for me to consider in that case
lol do you remember the actual text of the urbras you have
tall willow
I do, was there to synergize with the exile matters cards and make counterspells worse, but I guess it does not synergize with discard
deft belfry
i think it has first strike no haste, the rest i know
tall willow
OH lemme grab its text box
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn.
At the beginning of each opponentβs upkeep, the next time they would draw a card this turn, instead they exile the top card of their library. They may play it this turn.
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
5 mana do nothing, next turn only steals 3 cards but still need the mana
also cant take lands
tall willow
[[triple triad]] would be better, I know
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
yeah i just pick up that one waiting to play it
i think the potential is high, its fun and thematic
but putting in a 5 drop doesnt help the curve and the rest of the deck
tibalt has immediate effect on the turn he is out
i think it is one of those fun card that belongs more in a casual build rather than trying to be mean
tall willow
that's true
deft belfry
since i am desperate for card draw in some of my decks, i do run war room
but if you care about the coloured mana, then you will think twice about colour pips
tall willow
also, there are some other cards I'm thinking of cutting for better cards, what are your thoughts on each in this deck?
Reiterate
Elder Brain
Nevinyrral's Disk
In Garruk's Wake
Author of Shadows
Curse of Hospitality
deft belfry
lol [[!underdark rift]] i want to see this card in my game, its not very popular
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
yeah was about to ask about reiterate
tall willow
It came in the prosper precon, so I'mma keep using it
deft belfry
buy back looks nice but i dont have that many chance of casting my [[reverberate]] or [[display of power]]
deft belfry
so the extra mana without cost reduction do feel kind of wasted
i think it is somewhat of a meta game pick if you know that you have many good targets in your pod
its like playing 20 clones in a deck but your dont have a creature to copy for the first 4 turns scenario
copy spells need that initial target
tall willow
true, I originally put it in there as a "value card", but since I play spelltable more often than not, it's less consistent
deft belfry
i won once with an inconsistent deck using dual caster mage just because my opponent kicker [[rite of dupulication]] on the win con with no hexproof
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[rite of replication]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Sorcery
Kicker 
(You may pay an additional as you cast this spell.)
Create a token that's a copy of target creature. If this spell was kicked, create five of those tokens instead.
deft belfry
if i dont have like 25 spells i want to copy from my side, i wouldnt try to reiterate
wicked gust
Chaos Dragon (Inconsistent attacker)
Bedlam (Don't you *WANT* creatures to die?)...
Funny enough monomon suggested it
He said to add all 3 of them tbh
deft belfry
i cant justify a 9 drop [[in garruk's wake]]
shrewd zealotBOT
tall willow
Tho on that note, I will say that one of my favorite decks I've seen out there was called "Anything you can do, I can do better", and it was a clone deck helmed by [[Denry Klin, Editor in Chief]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
most games there arent really phanewalkers unless you are against that one super friends pre con
to destroy all creatures you dont control, no way it is worth 9 mana
my wipes are like ... [[last one standing]] [[neton lottery]]
tall willow
ooh I love last one standing
deft belfry
[[nepto lotery]]
shrewd zealotBOT
wicked gust
i cant justify a 9 drop [[in garruk's wake]]
Its a more price friendly [[Ruinous Ultimatum]]
shrewd zealotBOT
tall willow
deft belfry
hmm i cant remember the name, i think its from fallout, basically last one standing but with
YES
wicked gust
[[Nipton lottery]]
shrewd zealotBOT
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[extinction event]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i can deal with pretty much all my main targets with 4 maybe 5 mana
6 or more i better do something memorable for the week
because i rather destroy my own side than to overpay mana and still lose to [[!heroic intervention]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
this is also not including the cards i maybe stealing from others
which should include spot removals and such
tall willow
also if I wanted to move up to bracket 4, I could add blood moon effects
deft belfry
ramp draw removal interaction is supposed to be in every 99
wow, ambitious
i feel like at B4 it would just be the most generic toxic deluge 5 times recursion
more than 3-4 mana is not going to happen often
unless it has a win con attached to it
its the difference between the mana drain and counterspell and [[mana leak]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays .
The fatal flaw in every plan is the assumption that you know more than your enemy.
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
8 mana for random stuff
wicked gust
Love it
deft belfry
fun... and inconsistent
wicked gust
Was half tempted to add it into my deck
deft belfry
not sure if it belong to B3 power level tho
if i get out valki at the 7 mana curve, i should have cards to cast other than my own
so i really dont want to spend all of my own mana for something that has high ceiling and low floor
if i have ways to cheat it out, that would be a different story
if i have some sort of [[shark tornado]] payoff
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[shark typhoon]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Enchantment
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, create an X/X blue Shark creature token with flying, where X is that spell's mana value.
Cycling (, Discard this card: Draw a card.)
When you cycle this card, create an X/X blue Shark creature token with flying.
deft belfry
i would want all that high cost cards no problem
tall willow
True, and also casting it from anywhere other than the hand presents less value
deft belfry
if my commander is someone else, like prosper, i may do it
the treasure generation also pays for itself
tall willow
Prosper is in the list, but not the face commander
shrewd zealotBOT
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[!elderbrain]] fun thing, but yeah hard cast 7 mana, no haste, single opponent
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
lot of things happening but without haste it is a turn turned off
and the payoff is technically just card draw
the steal is fun, yet not guarantee to do what you need
tall willow
found it
deft belfry
a jank piece i really like is [[[[glasses of urza]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact
: Look at target player's hand.
deft belfry
even if i dont plan on getting out valki, the chance of using it increases if i can disrupt the table and take something nice away
also if i am good at reading in their decks
looking at someone hand gives me an idea when it is safer to cast tibalt, or what cards i can steal off the top
for 1 mana, that is a lot of information i can gather before my actions are made
tall willow
ALSO, this deck will (almost) NEVER be casting Valki, the true goal is Tibalt
(the back side)
deft belfry
i got my 7 mana nico bolas countered years ago π in a grixis commander deck that hardly have any synergy
yeah, but the option is there if you struggle enough early
tall willow
the plan is to drain them of resources until I get Tibalt out
deft belfry
fair
tall willow
(but also, whenever I played this deck on arena (went a treasure route over there), if I was playing valki, I was in a BAD spot lmao)
deft belfry
nev disk is fine, i may try to do [[oblivion stone]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact
, : Put a fate counter on target permanent.
, , Sacrifice this artifact: Destroy each nonland permanent without a fate counter on it, then remove all fate counters from all permanents.
deft belfry
because it tells the table not to overcommit and force them to sandbag cards in hand
tall willow
oh yeaaaaaaaah
deft belfry
for discard, i can do [[dark deal]]\
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
ideally with waste not out
with black as creature removal colour, i dont like to have [[chain reaction]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
burn damage cant get around pro red and indestructible
tall willow
true
deft belfry
[[storm's wrath]] is just there to kill tibalt yourself
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
even vandalblast, really good card, but i have times where i rather have more card draw/card advantage instead of blowing up mana rocks. it is one of those sabotage others without benefiting myself cards
tall willow
but also, there are 2 last cards I considered cutting myself, those being [[author of shadows]] and [[curse of hospitality]], what are your thoughts on those two
deft belfry
i like it more when i have [[liqumental torque]] in the 99 since it lets me kill enchantment
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[liquimetal torque]] close enough
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact
: Add .
: Target nonland permanent becomes an artifact in addition to its other types until end of turn.
"Weaponized jewelry has a long and respected history." βErvos Trax
deft belfry
come one bot
ehhh it only takes one cards out of 3 graveyards?
i think there is other options that gets more out of it
one X spell you may like, may not be for this deck but you will find a place for it [[balatent robbery]]
shrewd zealotBOT
tall willow
know what u talking about, I loooooooooooooove me some blatant robbery
deft belfry
most i got was 14 cards but opponent has a token precon so i hardly got much value
tall willow
(Lowkey wanna make a sultai ramp deck that can ramp out massive fun X spells like Villainous Wrath)
deft belfry
[[lotus of all]] commander for villanious wrrath the deck
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[omnath locus of all]]
shrewd zealotBOT
tall willow
also with the original treasure brew of the deck, I wanted to ramp out as much mana as possible to be able to cast as many of my opponents spells as I could. maybe I could have more mana rocks?
deft belfry
or maybe the sultai delve, lose that much life equal to the mana value teval but will have to kill teval to avoid the life drain
no, i tihnk rakdos should go like treasures
there is a small potential with [[inspiring statuary]] but the main idea is that treasures are faster or you want ritual and [[crypt gasp]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Artifact
Nonartifact spells you cast have improvise. (Your artifacts can help cast those spells. Each artifact you tap after you're done activating mana abilities pays for .)
Ghirapur's most celebrated inventors have been immortalized in clockwork.
shrewd zealotBOT
Creature β Spirit
Extort (Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay 
. If you do, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain that much life.)
Whenever you tap a Swamp for mana, add an additional .
2/2
deft belfry
i guess i do run lot of basics
so swamp takes up at least half my mana base other than rocks
the fact i can miss ramp on T2 T3 and cryptghast = T5 almost 7+ mana
makes the rest of spells much easiler to play
[[arvinox the mind flail]] same problem with stolen strat
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
thats a lot of mana to not having an immediate effect on the board
worse case, not even a creature
tall willow
well it's an EOT tibalt +2 basically
deft belfry
the point is none of those are bad on their own
but with all of them, there are more cards you may not be able to play
rather than cards you can play
tall willow
true
deft belfry
inb4 you try to cast your opponents cards instead of your own
tall willow
also found a [[replicating ring]], gonna throw it in because it's a funny mana rock
shrewd zealotBOT
Snow Artifact
: Add one mana of any color.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a night counter on this artifact. Then if it has eight or more night counters on it, remove all of them and create eight colorless snow artifact tokens named Replicated Ring with ": Add one mana of any color."
deft belfry
wandering archaic amazing creature, best case you take everything, slightly less good but still good their counter the copy, worst case they have nothing to cast or it doesnt make copies, so you are winning [[goldspam dragon]] makes mana starting from the turn it enters, chiefs kiss
shrewd zealotBOT
Creature β Dragon
Flying, haste
Whenever this creature attacks or becomes the target of a spell, create a Treasure token.
Treasures you control have ", Sacrifice this artifact: Add two mana of any one color."
4/4
deft belfry
the other ones are not as generically good so i think you want the one that helps your discard resources denial theme
tall willow
Goldspan: never not good
deft belfry
its bad when your opponent takes it
deft belfry
valki is about taking the best cards, its a balance between card selection, quality and quantity
dont need everything
to a degree, [[threaten]] + [[sun dial infinite]] is like the same effect for very little mana
shrewd zealotBOT
Sorcery
Untap target creature and gain control of it until end of turn. That creature gains haste until end of turn. (It can attack and this turn.)
Goblins' motivational techniques are crude, but effective.
Artifact
, : End the turn. Activate only during your turn. (Exile all spells and abilities from the stack. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)
tall willow
deft belfry
assume i remember that rule correctily, dont quote me on that one
tall willow
that is 100% incorrect
deft belfry
yea i think threaten is the wrong card for that
tall willow
As someone who has an Obeka deck, I know the ins and outs of ending the turn early lmao
deft belfry
but my point is more on, how much mana you want to pay
to play cards that may not synergize with your own deck
tall willow
to a degree, [[threaten]] + [[sun dial infinite]] is like the same effect for ve...
tho I will say, if it's worded like THIS then it can be stopped with a sundial effect
shrewd zealotBOT
tall willow
"Until end of turn" can't, but "at the beginning of your next end step" can
Come back wrong is an EXCELLENT example of a card that works with sundial
deft belfry
i am guessing there are no sorcery momo heist for creature?
tall willow
(especially since it can steal commanders :3)
tall willow
i am guessing there are no sorcery momo heist for creature?
there is, actually
tall willow
also thoughts on this
also we keep getting sidetracked, IS THIS CARD GOOD IN TIBALT OR NOT lol
deft belfry
When you can still need ideas on 3 cuts - https://moxfield.com/decks/6Usvem2XfEi...
looks like you got the cut, at least bedlam stayed, rip chaos dragon
[[auther of shadows]] [[curse of hospitality]]
wicked gust
looks like you got the cut, at least bedlam stayed, rip chaos dragon
I wouldn't mind adding ir back if I can find a better cut
deft belfry
that curse i dont see lot of attacking
wicked gust
Those suggestions for me to add into the deck?
deft belfry
there is, actually
ohh i never realized slave o blas doesnt say gain control and doesnt give back π π
its from the tibalt deck
potential cuts
if my commander is a go wide/ token creator or both my favourite [[master multiplied]] i would do the curse
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i cant justify that curse when i have no attackers half the time
tall willow
and ty for all the help once more Monomon
deft belfry
we will see where tibalt gets, the discard and discard payoff is a hard one to do
i dont think the deck is quite ready for B3 or B4
tall willow
To currently I have 7 additions and 8 cuts, any suggestions for cards to add to support the thievery and/or discard themes?
and I can easily cut the Jeska's will to make it a bracket 2 deck (unless you think discard is too rude for bracket 2)
deft belfry
there is a 5 mana flying legendary in black that becomes a land when it dies
lot of discard value and cause discard itself
tall willow
google told me it's [[Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal]]
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Bat God
Flying, lifelink
Whenever Aclazotz attacks, each opponent discards a card. For each opponent who can't, you draw a card.
Whenever an opponent discards a land card, create a 1/1 black Bat creature token with flying.
When Aclazotz dies, return it to the battlefield tapped and transformed under its owner's control.
4/4
Temple of the Dead
Land
(Transforms from Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal.)
: Add .
, : Transform this land. Activate only if a player has one or fewer cards in hand and only as a sorcery.
Chimil gave the Oltec peace in death. Aclazotz ripped it away.
deft belfry
discard is only rude when it is consistent and succesful very early
cold quartz
well monomon im reporting back, the deck is b-b-busted
deft belfry
late game discard doesnt matter as much
cold quartz
1st game with sheoldred apo and [[vilis, broker of blood]] i got hit for 45 life which healed me 45 life by drawing me 45 cards
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Demon
Flying
, Pay 2 life: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Whenever you lose life, draw that many cards. (Damage causes loss of life.)
"You can sign, or you can spend your life imagining what might have been yours."
8/8
cold quartz
2nd game i did it again..
tall willow
1st game with sheoldred apo and [[vilis, broker of blood]] i got hit for 45 life...
shouldn't it have been 90 life with sheoldred?
all the same, sounds OP AF
deft belfry
and the worst part is commander game has so much draw that you cant sotp
cold quartz
it was 90 total but i got hit for 45
deft belfry
need an answer? better draw into it
cold quartz
yeah with the instant and sorcery reeanimate options it literally is impossible to run out of gas
deft belfry
i consider vilis somewhat fair and fun
cold quartz
yes by itself for sure
deft belfry
sheoldred i dont want to see in B2 games π
cold quartz
i gotta drop sheoldred for lower power games for damn sure
cold quartz
for the b3 decks my pod was playing..not fair at all lol
deft belfry
weaker? than [[orchish bowmaster]]?
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
idk
wicked gust
I'm curious what your opinion for a cut for chaos dragon lol if any at all
shrewd zealotBOT
cold quartz
but i am glad my first deck i created is so good with your help, you got a damn knack for helping decks monomon
deft belfry
fuck 3 tap lands in a row
without sac outlet how often is the [[morbid oppotu]] drawing you
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
[[morbid opportunitist]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i think i would keep [[vampire knight hawk]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
unless you want that death touch blocker
i am rakdos and i care about hurting others, a little bit of pain in return is ... like a compliment
and if i am the attacker, the death touch is rarely going to get blocked
deft belfry
i would swap nighthawk
deft belfry
funny if you get blade of selves
yeah
the one mentioned above
with blade myriad it doesnt matter when someone wins the die roll
as long as you dont lose to all 3, it is attacking alright
wicked gust
Aight. The decks now fully done. Thoughts on the final product?
deft belfry
silly interaction that technically has no weight on the game but i find that funny
wicked gust
Feels like controlled rakdos chaos
deft belfry
kardur is a VERY controlling commander
flicker goad, may not even need the [[geode rager]] but that one is on theme
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i havent got that one to work too often since it is a 6 drop in red without creature tutor
maybe i have to play it enough to figure it out
my rule of thumb against goad decks, i try to attack that player first when i have a chance
tall willow
I run Geode Rager in my Moraug deck, very fun over there
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
ah landfall trigger focus
first strike with power buff synergy too
[[$moraug, fury a]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
hmmm maybe i will get one around $3
deft belfry
from EoE precon, it must feels like near infinite combat
any pet card?
or just more draw, i just saw this one
[[high society hunter]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
need a copy to swap out my [[harvester of souls]]
shrewd zealotBOT
deft belfry
i will miss the demon but he is getting power creeped and i need the draw
i dont think the "may" is going to matter
at least not in my deck
with spiteful version i can see harvester doing more
in case you are about to die
and deathtouch blocker that you like
personally i would just do a pet card and roll with it
wicked gust
or just more draw, i just saw this one
Saw it FROM ME XD
But I forgot a card I added had draw so I have 10 source of draw 1 impulse
deft belfry
yeah i know so i know you have that card
wicked gust
Lol
deft belfry
and since i swap out the batman knighthawk
it does make sense to have harvester
or go with the flying unblockable attacker
the fact it sac on attack also triggers kardur's attack dies
although its not as good as Raid, sac after damage been dealt
oohhh impulse would avoid spiteful version effective
so ou can also do that
wicked gust
Maybe
tall willow
@deft belfry just thought of a few cards, what are your thoughts on [[sire of insanity]], [[Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger]], and/or [[Charred Foyer // Warped space]]?
shrewd zealotBOT
Legendary Creature β Elder Giant
When Kroxa enters, sacrifice it unless it escaped.
Whenever Kroxa enters or attacks, each opponent discards a card, then each opponent who didn't discard a nonland card this way loses 3 life.
Escapeβ, Exile five other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
6/6
Enchantment β Room
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn.
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)
Warped Space
Enchantment β Room
Once each turn, you may pay 
rather than pay the mana cost for a spell you cast from exile.
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)
deft belfry
<@391063794387910656> just thought of a few cards, what are your thoughts on [[s...
sire is ... either amazing or useless, i love demon so i have done it. with enough land drops you should be fine
since its EACH END step
thats like the oppressive side of jin gitaxus
but when it hurts the user, 6 mana is also on the higher end
as long as you can get over the cost and draw back, the discard is VERY good against basically any table
and for a chaos player, i dont care who control it
it will affect everyone equally
kroxa, real power since it has immediate effect, and guarantee to do something at a low cost
although the floor can also be low since it may not give value right away
without enough cards to escape it, it is kinda of a single use discard effect
and this isnt the best colour at reusing etb, and kinda want more focus on the archenemy rather than pissing off everyone at once
it say "you discard this card, each opponent do the same"
warped space, it is normally used with your own impulse draws
so ideally, there are otherways to impulse draw without relying on valki