I'm working on a toluz deck after some testing on mtgarena inspired me to give it a go. Would love feedback and suggestions on the list, as this is a commander I'm still relatively new to. https://moxfield.com/decks/5pFupaEELkag08knMkEfgg
#Toluz Budget Control
robust lintel
quaint halo
Should run around 40 lands, 36 is simply not enough.
silver cosmos
Should run around 40 lands, 36 is simply not enough.
hold on what
36 is not bad 40 is way too much
38 is probably the number
or 37
and i'd probably go with 37 considering mana curve
but 36 is fine
quaint halo
36 is not bad 40 is way too much
40 is the correct number for EDH, most people do not run enough lands. If anything, the math suggests 42 is ideal if you want 4 land drops by turn 4 consistently.
See this for the math showing that: https://edhpowerlevel.com/articles/lands/
silver cosmos
40 is the correct number for EDH, most people do not run enough lands. If anythi...
or if you like drawing more useless lands in the endgame bc somehow 38 always worked perfectly as well as 37 or even 36
quaint halo
or if you like drawing more useless lands in the endgame bc somehow 38 always wo...
This is what your card draw should be preventing
you need a high land count to ensure you get lands early
silver cosmos
This is what your card draw should be preventing
man i don't really want to argue with you but the last time one of my friends used deck with 41 or 42 lands for a couple of weeks for testing(and it was a landfall deck that cares about lands) he was actually pretty unhappy with his draws
quaint halo
man i don't really want to argue with you but the last time one of my friends us...
If you have card draw, then the risk of land flood is mitigated. And you would rather be drawing your lands naturally early game than late game.
silver cosmos
and i understand the math and all of that stuff but theory is one thing and practice a whole another
quaint halo
I play 40+ lands in normal midrange decks and I found that doing so made them much more consistent.
these arent particularly high curved decks either
silver cosmos
If you have card draw, then the risk of land flood is mitigated. And you would r...
what do you mean by that second part?
wdym rather be drawing in the early game
quaint halo
You would rather use your card draw to draw into action late game than to use it in the early game to find a land
Spending your turn 2 or 3 on a card draw spell is really bad tempo
Using your turn 7-8 on a card draw spell is much better because you can usually follow up with it
silver cosmos
Spending your turn 2 or 3 on a card draw spell is really bad tempo
3rd turn is actually pretty good if you cant cast your cmd and 38 is more than enough to get the first 3 lands consistently
quaint halo
3rd turn is actually pretty good if you cant cast your cmd and 38 is more than e...
But by doing so, you arent developing your gameplan
silver cosmos
But by doing so, you arent developing your gameplan
yes you are you are setting your hand up for the mid game
quaint halo
You can do that in the mid game when you have the mana
its much better to set up your engine or whatever plan you are doing early
Id rather spend 2 mana on turn 5 where I can do something else after, than spend 2 mana on turn 2 in hopes i get a and drop turn 3
silver cosmos
38 is more than enough to get the first 3 lands consistently(i litteraly just cv'ed)
silver cosmos
you are trying to make a hole in a whole, the point is lands later are dead draws, you are able to get your mana early consistently with lesser lands and i think you are forgetting bout mana rocks which are better in late game bc they can serve as a differet purpose for example in some kind of aristocrats idk, and 3rd thing is that cards are usally just cooler than lands and give you more flexibility
quaint halo
you are trying to make a hole in a whole, the point is lands later are dead dra...
In the late game, you should have a card draw engine to mitigate dead draws though. You dont have access to this in the early game which is why you need more lands to ensure consistent early game. Mana rocks are awful as a replacement to land drops, spending 2 mana on land drop is terrible and for most decks they are probably worse than a land drop in the late game.
If you are running enough card draw you will be able to mitigate the risk of flood, while having a natural barrier to mana screw, which is much worse and much harder for decks to deal with beyond hoping to top deck.
silver cosmos
In the late game, you should have a card draw engine to mitigate dead draws thou...
mitigating the dead draws is still worse than just drawing something actully useful, and you can spend the land lot for one more draw enginge on whatever you want to call it, also i see your point with mana rocks but the thing is i dont know to which bracket is your advice actually useful, in bracket 3 mana rock just works and you are going to play that arcane signet anyway if you happen to draw it and well it works in bracket 1 or 2 you are probably here strictly for fun and to laugh with your buddies so if you wont make a land drop in one of the games, but in the other you ccould play that one funny card that you wpuldnt have put in unless you had a free slot for it and in bracket 4 and 5 you have just fast mana. Also the curve here is low so you don't need that much mana
quaint halo
You are drawing several cards a turn in the late game if you did things correctly, drawing extra lands isnt a huge issue, especially since having your land drops in the late game is still useful, and generally a much better state to be in compared to not having enough to get to your late game. My advice is referring to bracket 3 specifically, rocks are only passable if they are are played in addition to hitting your land drops. You won't be able to play those funny cards if you dont hit your land drops consistently, I would argue that land count is one of the few things that casual decks should pay attention to in deck construction. Because it is not fun to be stuck on 3 mana all game no matter what bracket you are in. Even with a low curve you want a very high land count to ensure you can get to the late game.
silver cosmos
You are drawing several cards a turn in the late game if you did things correctl...
i mean you are reffering to math and i am reffering to reality, limiting your resources to 57 cards is pretty tough and it'll hurt the decks flexiblity for sure not mentioning what i said earlier that cards are just cooler. i've built over 200 decks just past 3 years wheter by myself or building decks for ppl that post here (and belive me i can decipher just helping from actuall building) and somehow 38 lands always worked while giving more space for actuall material
quaint halo
i mean you are reffering to math and i am reffering to reality, limiting your re...
Math reflects reality. And you act like lands cant serve a function in the deck beyond just giving you mana. Tons of lands provide utility, especially MDFCs and channel lands which are effectively both lands and spells at the same time. The math states if you consistently want to hit 4 land drops by turn 4, you need 42 lands to consistently do that. If you have built 200 decks, I suspect you have not play tested each of them enough to get a truly representative idea of how often you get screwed/flooded/right amount of lands. The math basically simulates 1000+ games to get an idea of the likelihood of hitting your land drops given a certain land count
38 lands can work for a deck with a leaner curve, thats around the land drop i use for my 2 drop tribal lurrus deck
but for a normal deck with a normal curve, you want more
I see two ways you can address the land drop issue
Either play more lands or run a leaner curve. With a typical curve, you want 40-42 lands. If you deliberately play a lower curve deck, you can lower your land count by 1-2.
silver cosmos
38 lands can work for a deck with a leaner curve, thats around the land drop i u...
It's the case here, so you agree with me thanks for the discussion
quaint halo
It's the case here, so you agree with me thanks for the discussion
I don't, because i dont think this deck has a leaner curve.
Leaner curve is a curve thats around an average cmc of 2 without including land drops
silver cosmos
it was nice discussing with ya
quaint halo
if your decks curve is close to 3, you need 40-42 lands
silver cosmos
Leaner curve is a curve thats around an average cmc of 2 without including land ...
hmmm
quaint halo
1.82 includes land drops
actually i was looking at the wrong deck, this one has an average CMC without lands of 2.86
which is still close to 3
meaning it needs 40-42 lands
Im not referring to average CMC including lands in the average
silver cosmos
why are you trying to turn this around now xDDD
quaint halo
Im not?
Curve is obviously important when deciding land count
and a deck with an average curve, like this one needs a higher land count
This decks average CMC is 2.86
hence 40-42 lands is appropiate
silver cosmos
sry i cant take this seriously anymore you can't even stay with your own statement xD
quaint halo
I mean if you want a reason to bow out of the conversation, go for it. But you must recognize I am correct.
silver cosmos
I mean if you want a reason to bow out of the conversation, go for it. But you m...
are you american?
quaint halo
Yes. I speak facts and logic.
silver cosmos
what time zone?
quaint halo
American time zone
silver cosmos
American time zone
you have 5 of those.
quaint halo
Yes and im in the american one. In the heartland of the great USA.
But lets get back on topic
quaint halo
The topic being that this deck should be running 40 lands.
If this deck had an ultra low curve exlcuding land drops
it can run less lands
but this decks average nonland CMC is close to 3
meaning it needs a higher land density
silver cosmos
ok man tell me have you actully read the article you send me?
quaint halo
I have
And the math shows if you consistently want to hit 4 lands by turn 4, you need 42 lands
silver cosmos
ok what's the curve of the deck withput land again?
quaint halo
2.86, but this is not what this does not alone determine what is an essential top end
To get your gameplan going, you usually need 4+ lands to function
silver cosmos
and what does article say about playing 3 lands?
\
quaint halo
If you only want to hit 3 lands by turn 3, you can run 37, but most decks do not want to do this
my deck with an average non land CMC of 2 wants to hit 3 lands
silver cosmos
If you only want to hit 3 lands by turn 3, you can run 37, but most decks do not...
thank you very much
quaint halo
but my typical deck with a non land CMC of 3 usually want more
if im just playing 3 drops the entire game in my typical edh midrange deck, i am losing
silver cosmos
your own math proved you wrong
quaint halo
no it didnt lol
It literally shows thatr you want 42 lands to hit 4 land drops
which is what most midrange decks want to hit
Your average curve isnt necessarily the same thing as your desired land breaking point
silver cosmos
which is what most midrange decks want to hit
it a control 😭
quaint halo
for the vast majority of decks, you want it to be higher
Typically i would suggest +1 above whatever your curve is, because typically your 4 drops is when you are able to start snowballing in a midrange deck
you arent snowballing if you can only play 3 drops in your midrange deck
silver cosmos
Typically i would suggest +1 above whatever your curve is, because typically you...
did you know that mana rocks that you hated so much allow you to snowball
quaint halo
but a beast whisperer + some 3 drops can def let you snowball
quaint halo
did you know that mana rocks that you hated so much allow you to snowball
Only if you draw lands as well
otherwise they are just bad lands
and im def not snowballing if im forced to play a rock on turn 3 to replace a land drop
silver cosmos
Typically i would suggest +1 above whatever your curve is, because typically you...
i dont think your article says anything bout it
quaint halo
i dont think your article says anything bout it
Indeed, the article only shows if you want to consistently hit X land drops by turn x, you need Y number of lands
and I am arguing that most edh decks really want to hit 4 land drops by turn 4 every time
silver cosmos
Only if you draw lands as well
and with 38 which is one more land than recommended you don't draw lands?
quaint halo
and with 38 which is one more land than recommended you don't draw lands?
37 is only recommended if you want to consistently hit 3 lands by turn 3
which is typically not enough for most edh decks
you arent snowballing if you are stuck on 3 mana
you can snowball if you have 4 mana or 4 mana + ramp though
4 drops are typically a lot stronger than 3 drops
silver cosmos
which is typically not enough for most edh decks
how can you prove it
quaint halo
Try playing the game for one
Try playing a game where you only have 3 lands and can never draw a nother land
see if your deck can get a reasonable win
then do the same with 4 land drops
silver cosmos
Try playing the game for one
guess what i played yesterday
quaint halo
id expect you could find a way to keep up and win on 4 land drops
silver cosmos
Try playing a game where you only have 3 lands and can never draw a nother land
that's not a realistic scenerio
quaint halo
i dont think you can do so on 3
i mean this is simulating a screw scenario
and at 37 lands, you are at a risk of getting mana screw at past 3 lands
at 42 the risk is at 4 lands
or past it rather
The question is can your deck reasonably keep up and potentially snipe a win at those land counts
silver cosmos
guess what i played yesterday
with 36 lands and guess what i was able to even win twice
silver cosmos
and agianst eldrazi
quaint halo
Yea, sometimes you draw enough lands and win a singular game. But to get the most consistent results, you need to run higher land counts
silver cosmos
at 42 the risk is at 4 lands
there is always risk actully
quaint halo
there is, but it is mitigated
your risk is much lower at 42 lands compared to 37
You should be asking yourself if your deck can function at a low land count
and how many lands do you need to at least be in the game
silver cosmos
4 drops are typically a lot stronger than 3 drops
i wouldn't be so sure about that
quaint halo
they def are
3 drops tend to be balanced around the fact that you can get them out n turn 2 in constructed
silver cosmos
they def are
that's a bold statement
quaint halo
4 drops tend to be things that can end the game on their own if left unchecked
silver cosmos
4 drops tend to be things that can end the game on their own if left unchecked
which 4 drop does that
very reguraly
give me one
quaint halo
I mean beast whisperer is the first one I mentioned earlier
silver cosmos
and i'll h=give you my one 3 drop
quaint halo
if left unchecked it you will runaway with the game
silver cosmos
I mean beast whisperer is the first one I mentioned earlier
how does it win
quaint halo
you play creatures and utterly outvalue your opponents
and that puts you in a position where you cant lose
silver cosmos
it is a draw engine it's cool and all but it is not a game winning cards
silver cosmos
ok so i'll give you mine game winning card
quaint halo
it might not say "you win the game" but it effectively does if left unchecked
silver cosmos
[[yawgmoth's will]]
urban duneBOT
silver cosmos
it might not say "you win the game" but it effectively does if left unchecked
in one turn?
quaint halo
not on 3 mana
you cast yawgmoth's will with 3 lands, you arent winning the game
yawgmoth might cost 3, but effectively needs more mana to function properly
I am referring to cards if played on curve will win you the game
IE in a your stuck on 3 lands all game scenario
versus a your stuck on 4 lands all game scenario
silver cosmos
versus a your stuck on 4 lands all game scenario
well you won't be able to cast your cards as well if you are completly screwed
quaint halo
The assumption here is you are stuck on either 3 or 4 mana for the entire game
quaint halo
do you still have a chance of winning
quaint halo
you have 0 drops
if your a storm deck, possibly, but im talking about the average EDH midrange pile
The scenario here is you are stuck on either 3 or 4 mana and will never find another land again. Can your deck win from this position by only playing cards that cost 3 or less versus 4 or less.
silver cosmos
first you've tried to prove smth with math, then i read the article and it turned out that it doesn't prove your statement now you are trying to prove it based on assumptions and unrealistic scenarios. I won't even mention that for a sentence you've agreed with me but ypu've decied that for some reason you should change your mind. I don't want to continoue this discussion bc it is pointless and you have no proof behind you only unrealitic scenarios. I say that this deck is good on 36-37 lnd drops especcialy after changes i will propose. That's it for this discussion. If you need to hear it ye you are right and this deck should run 40 cards.
quaint halo
first you've tried to prove smth with math, then i read the article and it turne...
The article literally proves my statement. It shows outright that if you consistently want to hit 4 land drops by turn 4, you need 42 lands
The "sentence i agreed with you" was me pointing out how curve obviously played a role, but it was CMC without considering land drops
Which you some how took to mean i agreed with you because you were looking at the CMC including land drops
silver cosmos
I'd run [[intimitadion campaign]] which is uslly pretty good in control decks, being a mulltiple draw discard source, and you like discarding here
urban duneBOT
silver cosmos
[[raffine,eternal]] can be also pretty good
urban duneBOT
silver cosmos
[[ raffine eternal]]
urban duneBOT
silver cosmos
[[raffine scheming]]
urban duneBOT
Legendary Creature — Sphinx Demon
Flying, ward 
Whenever you attack, target attacking creature connives X, where X is the number of attacking creatures. (Draw X cards, then discard X cards. Put a +1/+1 counter on that creature for each nonland card discarded this way.)
1/4
urban duneBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
This spell costs less to cast for each different mana value among cards in your graveyard.
Whenever you discard a nonland card, you may cast it from your graveyard.
"So many fools think throwing something away is the same as disposing of it."
3/3
silver cosmos
as a back p plan
back up'
also if you like drawing a bunch of cards you could run [[phyrexian crawler]] and [[straving revenant]] or maybe [[queza]]
silver cosmos
[[ruin lurker bat]]
urban duneBOT
silver cosmos
sry [[psychosis crawler]]
urban duneBOT
urban duneBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
At the beginning of each end step, if a player discarded a card this turn, create a 1/1 black Bird creature token with flying and "This token can't block."
, 
: Each opponent discards a card. Activate only as a sorcery.
2/1
silver cosmos
@robust lintel
robust lintel
Should run around 40 lands, 36 is simply not enough.
Personally 36 has worked well for me in most circumstances. I'd see going to 37 here, but 38+ seems ridiculous
quaint halo
Personally 36 has worked well for me in most circumstances. I'd see going to 37 ...
40 is what I would recommend given your curve
robust lintel
I don't run anything over six and my curve is mainly on 2 and 3. Plus my commander having a counter after conniving is actually relevant
robust lintel
as a back p plan
I've thought about Oskar, but my main problem is that even if we don't currently have toluz the deck is designed to not care about it being removed. Plus Oskar doesn't have the ketramose synergy
robust lintel
also if you like drawing a bunch of cards you could run [[phyrexian crawler]] an...
I like these a lot and its infinite draw with toluz, ketramose, and a discard outlet. However im still deciding if the deck wants a combo or not
silver cosmos
I like these a lot and its infinite draw with toluz, ketramose, and a discard ou...
I mean it's a 3 card combo not even a 2 card and is an easy way to close out games
Also I forgot [[baral chief]]
urban duneBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost less to cast.
Whenever a spell or ability you control counters a spell, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.
"The echo of silence is music to my ears."
1/3
urban duneBOT
urban duneBOT
robust lintel
Also [[soul enervation]] can be pretty nice
If i was on more creatures I'd probably play this
robust lintel
Why don't you play this?
Monument is a bit out of my price range atm, [[teval's judgement]] will more than likely suffice, but I'll most likely end up running both
urban duneBOT
robust lintel
Also I forgot [[baral chief]]
This is a neat idea, never considered it. I'll think about it
silver cosmos
Monument is a bit out of my price range atm, [[teval's judgement]] will more tha...
Oh I thought you had high budget since you play alt art ketramose, but alr
robust lintel
I just happen to have a ketramose so im not including it in the budget on my end
silver cosmos
Also after some consideration I remembered bout [[Overlord of flood]] [[oildeep gearhulk]] and [[rona sheoldred's]]
urban duneBOT
Enchantment Creature — Avatar Horror
Impending 4—
(If you cast this spell for its impending cost, it enters with four time counters and isn't a creature until the last is removed. At the beginning of your end step, remove a time counter from it.)
Flying
Whenever this permanent enters or attacks, draw two cards, then discard a card.
5/3
Artifact Creature — Construct
Lifelink, ward
When this creature enters, look at target player's hand. You may choose a card from it. If you do, that player discards that card, then draws a card.
Oil-actuated inventions raised eyebrows after the Invasion, but no one could argue against the efficacy of the design.
4/4
silver cosmos
I just happen to have a ketramose so im not including it in the budget on my end
Sure thing
Nice pull
robust lintel
Thanks
robust lintel
Also after some consideration I remembered bout [[Overlord of flood]] [[oildeep ...
Overlord is a nice card for sure, I think this isn't a deck for rona or gearhulk though
silver cosmos
Overlord is a nice card for sure, I think this isn't a deck for rona or gearhulk...
I mean rona Discards, and pings your opps might give you an edge
Oildeep is just a solid stabilizer bc you could even use the ability on yourself
But if you don't want to play it I get it
robust lintel
If rona was 3 I'd maybe think about because unearth is very important in the deck
silver cosmos
If you want some more control [[obscura interceptor]]?
urban duneBOT
