Toggle Sprint

[kindred hazel]

Looking for community feedback for a new toggle sprint option.

[floral crag]

What do ye mean by "toggle sprint"?

[last lake]

I play a lot of the older fallout games they use caps lock for toggle sprint on pc that would be a good button for it I think

[vernal moss]

Instead of holding a key/button you'd press it to start sprinting and press it again to stop: toggle

[crisp elm]

As long as it's an optional setting I'm perfectly fine with that

[floral crag]

-# tbh i kinda like the hold button it allows for quick reactions like if im boutta go off a cliff

[floral crag]

What he said

[kindred hazel]

"Toggle sprint" is when clicking sprint button turns on sprint. rather than holding the button.

I don't use toggle sprint in games so I'm looking for advice from people who do.

1. If you stop moving should sprint stay "on"? Meaning if you start moving forward you would go back into a sprint. OR should sprint auto-cancel if you ever stop moving forward(or stop holding WASD input)

2. Spirit Sprint behavior. Should it still require a double tap? Or should it instead cycle through each time you click sprint. ie walking> sprinting> spirit sprinting> back to walking

@random grove

[last lake]

I use it like I said caps lock I bind it there in most games

[kindred hazel]

yes this will be optional in settings

[random grove]

I like when my sprint stays on while I’m moving or not, but I’m rather atypical as I always use toggle for movement rather than holding for any movement (I use toggles for forwards movements as well instead of classic hold w to go forwards)

I am an enjoyer of the one tap, two tap, three tap though… but this may not be ideal with the jump system

That sounds like a bad idea here

Maybe a tap to toggle sprint on or off, and a hold to use spirit sprint

I’ve seen that used in other games and it’s actually my favorite system

So walk/run is a tap to toggle between, then hold it to spirit sprint

[quaint crown]

I'm already using a sprint toggle myself by starting sprint then briefly entering camera mode.

[last lake]

That glitch is useful

[quaint crown]

So I'd be very happy with it.

[random grove]

My final say is tap between run/walk, then hold to spirit sprint, @kindred hazel

[quaint crown]

considering the situations where you'd use a togglesprint - over long distances - making it the same input as spirit sprint (and putting it on toggle as well) would probably fit well.

unless someone has objections to that

[vernal moss]

sprint and spirit sprint are already the same input

[quaint crown]

no, I mean making the spirit sprint doubletap also act as the sprint perma-toggle

presumption: if you want to toggle sprint, you're going to want to sprint for a prolonged period of time. Which you'd do with spirit sprint as well

the situations where you would want to toggle sprint but not spirit sprint would be quite few, and you could accomplish that by just gliding for a moment

[vernal moss]

Ahhh... Can't speak to that, I don't really use the sprint, as I'm not good with speed, and it dizzies me a bit

[quaint crown]

or if it's requested to not do it that way, could make doubletap the toggle, and doubletap into hold for spririt sprint

[random grove]

Spirit sprint effectively runs off very limited stamina, I see no issue with it at the very least being a hold

[kindred hazel]

what about this?

Hold Sprint(Current)
Hold for sprint. Double tap and hold for spirit sprint.

Toggle Sprint(New Option)
Tap to toggle sprint. Double tap(no hold after) for Spirit Sprint.
Tap while spirit sprinting would also cancel it.

[last lake]

That’ll work imo

[quaint crown]

as a menu option, sure.

[random grove]

Can try it, but it may have issues with input lag

Double tapping is not the easiest

[vernal moss]

that doesn't cover how you stop sprinting

[random grove]

Tap again

[vernal moss]

oh, now it does

[quaint crown]

yeah, just tap again, how it works right now if you use the cameramode trick

[kindred hazel]

when I have it working I can put it on the beta branch

[vernal moss]

I typed before the edit 😛

[quaint crown]

(Just please don't fix the cameramode sprintlock glitch, I also want to be able to toggle spirit sprint 😛 )

[random grove]

Im not a fan of the double tap for the current spirit sprint. People have already complained about how it’s hard to double tap as is

[quaint crown]

on keyboard or controller

[random grove]

So I worry it may not be well liked for the new one too

The glide is a tap hold, and it’s more intuitive

[kindred hazel]

can't promise any bugs will be kept. but that one is low priority for me

[random grove]

Don’t remove it until we have an actual toggle lol

[kindred hazel]

you will be able too by double tapping sprint

[kindred hazel]

deal

[random grove]

Odd that I’m advocating for a hold button, but I dunno, I like being able to turn off spirit sprint on a dime

We’ll see

[quaint crown]

mmh, I just feel like making it pure toggle would make quick fine movement a bit odd. you're gonna keep hold to sprint until release, right?

for both options

[random grove]

Yeah exactly

No

well

It’ll be a settings option

But not if it’s set to toggle mode

There will be two settings for this, one to keep the current sprint system, and one for the one we’re discussing

[quaint crown]

I mean as for the exact things: ```
default mode:
tap once = nothing
tap twice = lose 1 energy for no reason if spirit sprint is equipped
press then hold = sprint until button released
tap twice then hold = spirit sprint until button released

toggle mode:
tap once = sprint forever, press again = sprint until button released
tap twice = spirit sprint forever, press again = spirit sprint until button released
press then hold = sprint until button released
tap twice into hold = spirit sprint until button released

That would be my ideal.

[random grove]

sounds complex, do you have another game that uses this system?

[quaint crown]

it's not complex, just had to cover all cases so it is more verbose.

just gotta cover those 4 cases.

[kindred hazel]

makes sense

[random grove]

ah, reading it again does make sense

[last lake]

There’s a few accessibility things I think the game needs I think my biggest one for me and a few others I have talked to is colorblind settings @random grove and @odd coral specifically along with myself X3

[random grove]

yeah, those could be useful

poor red blind people can't see the puzzles lol

[last lake]

Ok I can see them because I’m not severely colorblind I’m not hexx levels of bad

Poor hexx

[last lake]

You can’t see purples XD

[floral crag]

I can see them just fine but i agree poor hex

[last lake]

I cant see a lot of magentas and some shades of red well

[floral crag]

I cant see certain shades of green well, they come up as either yellowish or blueish

Particularly darker greens come up as darkblueish

[random grove]

More or less just want a tap to toggle walk or run, then hold to sprint from either, I dislike double taps

holding for sprint is not a big deal, you can't sprint more than 15 seconds really

[last lake]

Like WQ right

I love that X3

[random grove]

bingo

[last lake]

It’s so much easier in the hands

[random grove]

agreed

[odd coral]

I kept walking over things

[livid socket]

a toggle sprint option for those who want/need it would be a great addition. personally I'm one of those who likes having a button to press. For me it just feels right, then again I grew with games like Super Metroid and A Link to the Past where there was a button to press to sprint/run.

[floral crag]

Rip

[odd coral]

I was grateful to chat, lol, kept telling me 'There! Right there! You are literally on it.'

[random grove]

thankfully we can see red <3

[odd coral]

You see the reds I can't and I see the blues you can't

3d movies fear us

[last lake]

A

[last lake]

Pain

You can see the magentas and orange reds I can’t see X3

[floral crag]

What?

[kindred hazel]

@quaint crown @random grove and anyone else

[random grove]

I don't like the spirit sprint turning off normal sprint

would rather just hold for spirit sprint, not have it interfere with the toggle

[floral crag]

Ooooo a dev sandbox level i love seeing these

[random grove]

better than what we have.. but I don't think spirit sprint needs a toggled on mode yet, nor should it interfere with the normal toggle

[kindred hazel]

ah i see

I'll see what I can do. Maybe I can make it so there is an option for both sprint and spirit sprint

It's a bit more complicated under the hood. They aren't truly seperate abilities. Spirit Sprint is sprint. just with buffs

[kindred hazel]

so keep spirit sprint double tap and hold?

[random grove]

I don't like the double tap is the thing

try if sprint is toggled on, holding turns on spirit

[kindred hazel]

oh. well that would be a slightly seperate issue

[random grove]

I guess just try a few combos to see what seems most natural

[kindred hazel]

I think what is most intuitive is make both forms of sprints "taps" or "Holds"

[random grove]

fair..

Still It'd be nice to be able to swap between normal and spirit sprint without going back to walk

[kindred hazel]

i'll fiddle and think of how I might make youre desired outcome possible. might be 2 settings working in tandem

[kindred hazel]

this is likely possible

[random grove]

let me know how this goes, all for testing when it comes down to it

[last lake]

Thank you for all your work Tayler!!

[odd coral]

It's looking good so far

[faint wind]

Yeah, I'm not really enjoying the double tap for spirit sprint. I use left trigger on my controller for sprint and the double trigger press fails to input often.

[quaint crown]

I've never really had trouble with it. might be a controller thing.

[slow vector]

Why not use two different buttons for these two abilities ?
Sprint would be a button. Spirit Sprint would be another.

[random grove]

keybinds for controller

Anyways, I'm a fan of games with walk/run/sprint set to single key, a toggle between run and walk, then sprint is hold, just my preference

[slow vector]

Fair enough, I guess. Still better than a double tap, at least.

[random grove]

yeah I do not like double taps

[slow vector]

I also have trouble triggering the lift rune...😅 🙃 But that's another subject. 😅

[random grove]

tbh yea same

I can't move fast enough to activate them

[slow vector]

So many taps, omg.

[random grove]

the nerve damage is real xD

[kindred hazel]

@random grove and others. 🙂

We've discovered an issue with toggle sprint.
When Sprint is active the game disables Target Jumps and enables regular sprint jumps. With toggle sprint it is easy to toggle it on then forget about it. Causing it to feel like target jumps are broken.

The proposed solution is to auto-end sprint if you top moving(at least when using the toggle sprint setting). A few games do this but I want to run it by you all.

[random grove]

I'd rather not do that, I kinda hate that system in other games

I don't think how it is is really an issue as much as it is something you have to memorize

another option would be to have it so if you stand still, target jump becomes an option regardless of if its toggled

[last lake]

That would probably be a bit hard to implement and require changing the whole sprint system I’m not super sure Tayler would have to give more info

[random grove]

don't get me wrong, toggles are harder to play with, but It is something you can learn. Its not as intuitive as hold, but that's the case everywhere. I really do hate when games turn off sprint when I stand still though

it was annoying enough that toggle sprint is turned off when you hit water

I'd HATE it if it turned off when standing still

[last lake]

@kindred hazel do you have any input? Would it be hard to implement a change to the sprint system as it is?

[random grove]

I think it’s less of an issue as you’d think. I know you’re not fond of UI elements but you could add one to the “compass” that shows if sprint is currently active too

I was able to do a lot of the games parkour rather easily even with the toggle. It’s different, but if you’re used to it you’ll be fine

Then again I’m the weirdo who uses toggles for walking too, even in other equally intuitive games

Just the way you think about it

Anyways, tldr, I would hate it if standing still turned off the toggle and I think a UI indication of which mode you’re in would be better

[quaint crown]

I like this one.

And it's probably not too hard to change the existing system to it either...

like, currently it's like if (!sprinting) jump_guided() else jump_and_die()

[random grove]

lol

[quaint crown]

you'd only have to change it to like if (!sprinting || (input.velocity.x == 0 && input.velocity.y == 0)) jump_guided()

the only possible issue then is if someone plays with a faulty gamepad that has an off deadzone, but you can't really account for faulty hardware, can you?

well, at least not input-wise.

there is the issue of additional processing every cycle

[kindred hazel]

Thank you for the input

Im not totally onboards with any of these to be honest

The game design isnt really meant to just leave sprint on. I dont like making jump targets appear when standing still only because it trains the player to just leave sprint always on.

then theyll start to only use target jump when stand perfectly still...

My personal opinion is that stopping sprint when not moving is very standard.

[last lake]

That’s what I think as well it’s not a 100% perfect solution for everyone but it gets the job done without causing to many extra issues

[random grove]

standard, but very gross feeling

I really don't like games that do it

I think its fine as is

keep it as is, let people get used to it

its not hard to memorize when to swap

I do not want it to turn off when you stand still

I think it feels very nice as is

also it should auto run after swimming if the toggle is on

[last lake]

@odd coral

I have a solution possibly if Tayler agrees a little toggle sprint icon in the corner somewhere that show hey you have toggle sprint on

[random grove]

If it fades a second later like the spirit energy that could work fine

[fathom bridge]

I'd like to simply see a toggle button for auto moving on PC so I don't have to hold down buttons and hurt my carpal tunnel. In other games where I can toggle autorun or movement, I can play for a lot longer.

[random grove]

I feel the exact same way

[fathom walrus]

....But they literally just added that!

[slow vector]

To toggle sprinting, not auto running / moving across the map.

[magic berry]

I think they mean something like double tapping ‘W’ to keep moving forward.

[quaint crown]

slowly turning this into an idlegame 🙃

[random grove]

Some people need toggles because our hands cannot hold keys, any keys, even as simple as movement

[fathom bridge]

I have carpal tunnel syndrome, I have suggested a way to help people like me be able to play a video game without wrecking our hands. You don't have to use it if your hands are fine and you don't want to use it.

It's a video game, not pro football.

[quaint crown]

I was just trying to be snarky 🙁

I am fully aware that a lot of features that seem superfluous to ablebodied people are quite necessary for others.

[random grove]

I too have issues with my carpal tunnel, I’ve actually had to get braced up for weeks and see doctors about it just because I’ve over done it playing video games that weren’t accessible with controls
It very much is something that people don’t think about until they themself have issues

I have to be VERY careful with mechanics required spam, genuinely was to the point I was risking needing surgery because I was getting too cocky in a fighting game once

Ended up in braces for 4 weeks that incident, thankfully no surgery required

[quaint crown]

-# frankly, I'm surprised I don't have problems with it, yet.

[random grove]

Be glad and cherish your wrists!

[quaint crown]

as long as I have them